Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

Oscirus · May 15, 2019

4 hours ago, chrisvee said:

Tyrion is trying to avoid the genocide he suspects is in front of him by making a deal that risks that Cersei rises again in 15 years. Pragmatic to the end. But it’s why I have more respect for Varys.

How was Cersei coming back to be a threat in 15 years with no support financially or spiritually?

Varys last move was beyond stupid. Even if Jon and Tyrion went along with it, then what? Was Dany's army gonna magically support Jon and turn against their mother?

The problem with the Lannister edits in general on this show is that Benioff and probally weiss identied with them most of all. Hell he actually praised the red wedding as a genius move. That they even had the nerve to bring up Tysha is headshakingly dumb.

Honestly I think Tyrion's best ending would be to run casterly rock as he sees fit and let the people ( majority of who still see him as a monster) fight it out among themselves as opposed to working for bran in a thankless job at the end.

Really that ending just comes off as people are just existing in the end. Nothing happy, just life goes on for these people.

lucindabelle · May 15, 2019

10 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

Exactly which women have been portrayed as hysterical? Because quite frankly, I don’t recall Arya, Yara, Brienne, Dany, Lyanna, Myrcella, Cersei, Oleanna, Margery, Ygritte, Melisandre and even Sansa fitting the bill. Catelyn had a couple of moments I would call more dumb than anything else.

Do people even know what hysterical means? Really means and which context it has been used in regards to women and how it could or not be applied in the scenes we saw?

ETA: I'm not counting watching a loved one die, like Catelyn at the Red Wedding, or Ellaria and Tyene, as "hysterical".

I know what it means and I Obviously used it quite deliberately. Why would I NOT be using it deliberately in a post about sexism? Please, be polite and answer without insulting me. I also dint accept excuses for some female characters and how they are written.

10 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Take it up with GRRM, he obviously feels it was important to have that point made.

Bronn has principles, he never broke his word to Tyrion. He was born to be cannon fodder and pulled himself up by his own wits and sword to becoming powerful and safe.

I don't care if you hate him, go for it, but I see a lot that I like in him, and in any character that begins from NOTHING and makes a life for themselves.

It’s not that I hate him. I don’t see him as anything like heroic. And I will take it up with the show thanks since that’s what we’re discussing. Don’t give a rats ass whether GRRM thinks it’s profound. It ain’t.

9 hours ago, stagmania said:

One thing I overlooked in my initial reactions was that Tyrion wasn't just trying to save the city and help Jaime with his actions in this last ep - he was actively trying to help Cersei escape! That makes him a traitor to the common good any way you slice it, regardless of your position on Dany. And after three seasons of being wrong about everything and perpetrating this ultimate betrayal of the people, the consequence will be ... he gets to rule the kingdom. LMAO.

Yes.

5 hours ago, chrisvee said:

Tyrion is trying to avoid the genocide he suspects is in front of him by making a deal that risks that Cersei rises again in 15 years. Pragmatic to the end. But it’s why I have more respect for Varys.

And? NEVILLE CHAMBERLAIN MADE A DEAL WITH HITLER. He had good intentions too. And at least he didn’t do it behind the back of the British government!

Tyrion is seen as “good” when in reality he was disloyal, treasonous and a rotten hand.

as to how could cersei come back- baby danaerys managed it.

4 hours ago, loki567 said:

The unfortunate thing is the show's going to almost lose all of its replayability now that we know what happens. Almost anything Jon, Jaime, Bran, Stannis, etc. Giant chunks of the show will not matter in the slightest because in the end they didn't matter in the slightest to the story.

I know there's an argument that you can't show everything, but I wish the show had more ruthless with some of the periphery characters in order to give its main characters more screentime for development.

Nah. Just do what I plan to, mentally call them The Last Battle. I’ve reread all of the chronicles of narnia many many times except for that horrible “Heaven is better but Susan doesn’t go because she likes pantyhose” which also ended with a literal train crash and Aslan ex machina. That book I think I’ve read a total of twice.

2 hours ago, dirtypop90 said:

I don’t have a problem with Mad Queens Cersei and Dany because the Kings are just as mad—the “Mad King,” Visarys, Stannis, Robert Baratheon, wannabe king Euron, Joffrey, Ramsey. Only exceptions are starks, Rob and Jon. If they make Sansa QON, there’s our sane queen. Margery was also sane. The list of sane rulers is slim and balanced as far as female and male representation.

Except we didn’t see small folk dying in long extended shots of anybody but dany. We HEARD about Dothraki rape. Never sW it. So no. It’s not balanced as far as representation. There’s a world of difference in a visual medium between characters reporting and is seeing, and it was done deliberately. The horrors of war were talked about and never show- until now. Very manipulative, as was the tragic heroine edit cersei got complete with luminous pale lighting, teary delusion and sad cellos.

Edited May 15, 2019 by lucindabelle

Oscirus · May 15, 2019

39 minutes ago, lucindabelle said:

as to how could cersei come back- baby danaerys managed it.

Dany had a name that numerous people supported, was married into a dothraki culture, fireproof skin and three dragons. What does Cersei have if she escapes?

LoveLeigh · May 15, 2019

My speculation is this: I think, based on this last episode, that Weiss and Benioff are infusing their own political agenda in to the end and they want to say that "war is hell." Nobody wins. And to do that, they totally had to go off the charts and create scenarios that made no sense to the previous plot lines.

The whole series was about the fight for the Iron Throne. There will be no Iron Throne. The entire civilization will disappear like Atlantis.

Nothing will be left, except maybe one couple wandering off to find a new home and tell the story of what was once Westeros. It could be Sam and his ancestor George R. R. Martin writes the books.

lucindabelle · May 15, 2019

19 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Dany had a name that numerous people supported, was married into a dothraki culture, fireproof skin and three dragons. What does Cersei have if she escapes?

She didn’t know she had fireproof skin. And for a long time all she had was dragon eggs.

i mean yes, Dany was certainly a likelier comeback story than Cersei- but time can change things. Who knows. I don’t think Cersei is safe to let loose in the world.

GraceK · May 15, 2019

Honestly? The only realistic outcome is for Daenaerys to actually remain Queen, and to continue her reign through terror. Or not terror per sei, but having conquered, realize that it’s ashes in her mouth and literally as well, and that she will have to always govern by fear. She may be a benevolent Queen afterwards, but she seized by conquest and devastation and that’s her legacy. Because seriously, she is unbeatable. She made a very powerful statement. Do not fuck with me. She’s fireproof. Drogon in this episode did what three dragons couldn’t do. And he’s still technically a teenage dragon. She has unsullied, Dothraki. Realistically, she is Aegon the Conqueror reborn . No one should fuck with her after this .

But, being David and Dan who don’t care about these things, somehow Jon is gonna be able to kill her and her armies are gonna disperse peacefully I guess, and Arya will be a dragon slayer? I mean, how are they gonna resolve this ? 🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️

Edited May 15, 2019 by GraceK

anamika · May 15, 2019

https://ew.com/tv/2019/05/12/game-thrones-cersei-kings-landing-battle-interview/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app

Quote

“She starts off in this final season trapped in a web of her own making, as is usual with Cersei,” Headey says. “She’s desperately unhappy and everything that’s happened becomes more real than it ever has for her. She starts to lose control of the situation. She’s destroyed every good alliance, connection, love in her life — she was always destined to be alone. And until the very, very last minute, she is, as ever, in denial of what’s actually happening.”

I remember Emilia Clarke giving an interview on how this season was an exploration of power and how Cersei had lost everything because she desired power and whether Dany really wanted that. And we never got any of that on the show. There was no exploration of power. Dany just went mad after hearing bells.

I remember David and Dan talking about an interesting scene coming up between Jon and Cersei this season in their DVD commentary. And that did not happen. No Cersei miscarriage as well.

I guess whatever Kit and possibly Emilia shot in Dubrovnik is next episode.

Lena confirms that Jaime and Cersei really loved each other till the very end and that Brienne was just a temporary side fling for Jaime to realize that the only person he truly loved is Cersei.

Quote

Headey says her reaction that final scene was “mixed” at first. “I wanted her to have some big piece or fight with somebody,” she says.

But then the actress talked over the scene with Coster-Waldau and came around to appreciating Cersei’s final moments. “The more we talked about it the more it seemed like the perfect end for her,” Headey says. “They came into the world together and now they leave together.”

“I think the important thing is that Jaime had a chance at freedom [with Brienne] and finally liberated himself from Cersei, which I think the audience will be thrilled about,” Headey adds. “I think the biggest surprise is he came back for her. Cersei realizes just how she loves him and just how much he loves her. It’s the most authentic connection she’s ever had. Ultimately they belong together.”

In that last moment, staring at her brother, waiting for the end, Headey says, “It’s maybe the first time that Cersei has been at peace.”

loki567 · May 15, 2019

Quote

I remember David and Dan talking about an interesting scene coming up between Jon and Cersei this season in their DVD commentary. And that did not happen. No Cersei miscarriage as well.

I remember a leak of a filmed scene between the two of them. It might have been a fake scene to throw off spoilers or some sort of a "Jon tries to convince her to surrender," scene that got deleted.

Eyes High · May 15, 2019

7 hours ago, bijoux said:

I was actually thinking about this yesterday and what if it isn’t any higher emotion but the fact that Tyrion has become impotent? He found out his last sexual partner was boinking his evil dad and then strangled her. That could have caused a psychological problem.

Nah, it's about Sansa.

1. The show swapped out Book Tyrion's reply to Sansa when she asks what happens if she never wants him from a comment about whores to "And so my watch begins," a reference to the NW celibacy vows. Unlike the books, he's (jokingly) promising Sansa that he'll stay faithful to her until she wants him, too.

2. Shae complains in 4x01 that Tyrion won't sleep with her. In the same episode, Tyrion declines the offerings at the brothel with a claim that he's a married man.

3. At Tyrion's trial in 4x06, Shae bitterly says that her affair with Tyrion was before he married; after he married Sansa, "all he wanted was her."

4. In 5x03, Tyrion seeks out a brothel, but when a prostitute he'd been talking with offers to have sex with him, he can't go through with it. He also appears to be genuinely confused as to why that is: "Believe me, no one is more shocked than I am. I hope it passes. What will I do in my spare time?" (If it were about Shae, presumably there would be no great mystery.)

5. In 8x02, Jaime says that whoremongering is still an option for Tyrion, and Tyrion sighs "It's not. Things would be easier if it were." Jaime looks confused and is about to ask him to elaborate, but Tyrion plays it off with a joke about the perils of self-betterment.

6. In 8x03, Sansa saying the most heroic thing they can do is look the truth in the face prompts a very drunk Tyrion to suggest that they should have stayed married. He also kisses Sansa's hand when he thinks they're about to die.

7. In 8x04, Tyrion tells Jaime that he hasn't been with a woman for years. Also, when Bran says that he doesn't want anything anymore, Tyrion sighs again and says "I envy you."

I'm not sure what the point of all of it is with only one episode remaining, but the subtext is pretty strong that Tyrion's celibacy has to do with Sansa. Tyrion also seems very much in love with Sansa in S8, which is probably not a coincidence if he's kept celibate for several years because he took his wedding vows that seriously.

All the relationships that have gotten any attention from the writers in S8--Sandor/Arya, Grey Worm/Missandei, Theon/Sansa, Jorah/Dany, Jaime/Cersei, Beric/Arya, Jaime/Brienne, Tyrion/Jaime, Gendry/Arya, Jon/Sam, etc.--have gotten closure one way or another, even if the closure was death or something emotionally brutal. Tyrion and Sansa have had multiple scenes together in S8. I do think Tyrion and Sansa along with this celibacy issue will get closure as well, even if they end up apart because Tyrion stays south and Sansa heads back north.

Edited May 15, 2019 by Eyes High

Kanner · May 15, 2019

4 hours ago, GraceK said:

Honestly? The only realistic outcome is for Daenaerys to actually remain Queen, and to continue her reign through terror. Or not terror per sei, but having conquered, realize that it’s ashes in her mouth and literally as well, and that she will have to always govern by fear. She may be a benevolent Queen afterwards, but she seized by conquest and devastation and that’s her legacy. Because seriously, she is unbeatable. She made a very powerful statement. Do not fuck with me. She’s fireproof. Drogon in this episode did what three dragons couldn’t do. And he’s still technically a teenage dragon. She has unsullied, Dothraki. Realistically, she is Aegon the Conqueror reborn . No one should fuck with her after this .

But, being David and Dan who don’t care about these things, somehow Jon is gonna be able to kill her and her armies are gonna disperse peacefully I guess, and Arya will be a dragon slayer? I mean, how are they gonna resolve this ? 🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️

I was so pondering this on my way to work today. How is the overthrow a Dany going to realistically happen? Grey Worm should be telling Dany that Jon did not follow her lead in continuing to attack the city and she will find Jaime gone. So Jon and Tyrion should be roasted pretty quickly. But with the way things have happened and the cut away from important scenes, I would not be surprised if it doesn't even come up.

Stallion12 · May 15, 2019

4 minutes ago, Kanner said:

I was so pondering this on my way to work today. How is the overthrow a Dany going to realistically happen? Grey Worm should be telling Dany that Jon did not follow her lead in continuing to attack the city and she will find Jaime gone. So Jon and Tyrion should be roasted pretty quickly. But with the way things have happened and the cut away from important scenes, I would not be surprised if it doesn't even come up.

That's my issue, nothing makes sense anymore .

Bannon · May 15, 2019

5 hours ago, GraceK said:

Honestly? The only realistic outcome is for Daenaerys to actually remain Queen, and to continue her reign through terror. Or not terror per sei, but having conquered, realize that it’s ashes in her mouth and literally as well, and that she will have to always govern by fear. She may be a benevolent Queen afterwards, but she seized by conquest and devastation and that’s her legacy. Because seriously, she is unbeatable. She made a very powerful statement. Do not fuck with me. She’s fireproof. Drogon in this episode did what three dragons couldn’t do. And he’s still technically a teenage dragon. She has unsullied, Dothraki. Realistically, she is Aegon the Conqueror reborn . No one should fuck with her after this .

But, being David and Dan who don’t care about these things, somehow Jon is gonna be able to kill her and her armies are gonna disperse peacefully I guess, and Arya will be a dragon slayer? I mean, how are they gonna resolve this ? 🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️

Eh, the whole thing is a dumpster fire at this point. I kept hoping, from the time that the anti-Cersei forces (Tyrion most of all) were so dumb as to not realize that using the dragons to locate Euron's fleet, and the Lannister army (then marching on Highgarden) was sort of a good idea, that this was a one-off instance of lazy ass writing, and these two scribblers would right the ship. Nope, they just descended into further sloth.

It's basically unsalvageable at this point, and the shame of it is that if somebody with some power and/or influence had intervened when this story was outlined, it could have been so much better.

absnow54 · May 15, 2019

1 hour ago, Kanner said:

I was so pondering this on my way to work today. How is the overthrow a Dany going to realistically happen? Grey Worm should be telling Dany that Jon did not follow her lead in continuing to attack the city and she will find Jaime gone. So Jon and Tyrion should be roasted pretty quickly. But with the way things have happened and the cut away from important scenes, I would not be surprised if it doesn't even come up.

This. Jon and Tyrion should be toast. Jon especially, because he's a huge threat to her reign, and he's now given her an excuse to execute him. I just don't see how they logically dig themselves out of the massive crater they've created in one episode. Dany has a bigger army and a dragon. Sure, Jon stabbing Dany is a logical step at this point, but once she's dead, her massive army and dragon don't just disappear, unless we find out that she was truly the fire version of the Night King, and all of her soldiers drop dead alongside her.

Nashville · May 15, 2019

6 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Dany had a name that numerous people supported, was married into a dothraki culture, fireproof skin and three dragons.

Only one of which Danerys had for the first 16 years of her life.

6 hours ago, Oscirus said:

What does Cersei have if she escapes?

If Cersei’s baby had been male? - the continuation of the Lannister line.

stagmania · May 15, 2019

1 hour ago, Kanner said:

I was so pondering this on my way to work today. How is the overthrow a Dany going to realistically happen? Grey Worm should be telling Dany that Jon did not follow her lead in continuing to attack the city and she will find Jaime gone. So Jon and Tyrion should be roasted pretty quickly. But with the way things have happened and the cut away from important scenes, I would not be surprised if it doesn't even come up.

14 minutes ago, absnow54 said:

This. Jon and Tyrion should be toast. Jon especially, because he's a huge threat to her reign, and he's now given her an excuse to execute him. I just don't see how they logically dig themselves out of the massive crater they've created in one episode. Dany has a bigger army and a dragon. Sure, Jon stabbing Dany is a logical step at this point, but once she's dead, her massive army and dragon don't just disappear, unless we find out that she was truly the fire version of the Night King, and all of her soldiers drop dead alongside her.

All of this is spot on. The way they've set it up, Dany has snapped and decided to rule through fear. That means all her enemies, anyone who has ever disagreed with her, should be dragon roasted immediately after the battle. But we know that's not what happens - she has a scene with Jon where they chat, she locks Tyrion up even though she just tried that with his brother who was able to escape. She gives them the chance to keep plotting against her and ultimately kill her, against all logic and reason. They can't even write this horrible turn in her character properly.

screamin · May 15, 2019

18 minutes ago, Nashville said:

Only one of which Danerys had for the first 16 years of her life.

If Cersei’s baby had been male? - the continuation of the Lannister line.

Officially, the child of the widowed unremarried queen is a bastard, not a Lannister (however thoroughly genetically Lannister on both sides it is). Of course, Cersei had no legitimate claim to rule after Tommen "Baratheon" died, yet there she was - presumably out of sheer terror. It might be hard for her to summon that up again, though.

Edited May 15, 2019 by screamin

screamin · May 15, 2019

6 hours ago, GraceK said:

Honestly? The only realistic outcome is for Daenaerys to actually remain Queen, and to continue her reign through terror. Or not terror per sei, but having conquered, realize that it’s ashes in her mouth and literally as well, and that she will have to always govern by fear. She may be a benevolent Queen afterwards, but she seized by conquest and devastation and that’s her legacy. Because seriously, she is unbeatable. She made a very powerful statement. Do not fuck with me. She’s fireproof. Drogon in this episode did what three dragons couldn’t do. And he’s still technically a teenage dragon. She has unsullied, Dothraki. Realistically, she is Aegon the Conqueror reborn . No one should fuck with her after this .

Realistically, she's also Aerys the Mad King, even if she's not literally insane, which I don't think she is. What I mean is, she will have to become as paranoid and reclusive as Aerys if she wants to stay in her current position. What Aerys did out of delusional fear of nonexistent threats, Dany will have to do out of realism. All the enemies she's made are real. And she can't sit on her dragon 24/7. She's human and vulnerable to harm and while Grey Worm and his men can protect her from frontal assault, she doesn't have a spymaster like Varys or Qyburn to protect her from everything else.

I also don't think she has the loner mindset that would keep her capable of doing without human interaction aside from Grey Worm (who's in as bad shape as she is) for too long. She will probably end up wanting Jon's company, even if it's just to demand he validate her choices and reaffirm his vow that she's his queen no matter what. (And I still think she might be pregnant, damn it, which would give her another motive to want to speak with him and attempt an impossible reconciliation.)

bijoux · May 15, 2019

7 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

Except we didn’t see small folk dying in long extended shots of anybody but dany. We HEARD about Dothraki rape. Never sW it. So no. It’s not balanced as far as representation. There’s a world of difference in a visual medium between characters reporting and is seeing, and it was done deliberately. The horrors of war were talked about and never show- until now. Very manipulative, as was the tragic heroine edit cersei got complete with luminous pale lighting, teary delusion and sad cellos.

Didn’t we see rapes happening when Daenerys saved Mirri Maz Duur? I know we only heard about Mirri being raped several times already but I have this image in my head of other rapes being shown around them. Plus, I don’t remember the sex going on at Dany and Drogo’s wedding (not between them, but during the festivities) as being consensual.

5 hours ago, anamika said:

https://ew.com/tv/2019/05/12/game-thrones-cersei-kings-landing-battle-interview/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app

Lena confirms that Jaime and Cersei really loved each other till the very end and that Brienne was just a temporary side fling for Jaime to realize that the only person he truly loved is Cersei.

I really hope that’s what Lean sees as Cersei’s POV, because it feels like something Cersei would shrug off. I as a viewer can’t just dismiss Jaime sleeping with another woman for the first time in his life and chosing her even if he walked back from it as just a fling. It wasn’t.

Maximum Taco · May 15, 2019

24 minutes ago, screamin said:

Officially, the child of the widowed unremarried queen is a bastard, not a Lannister (however thoroughly genetically Lannister on both sides it is). Of course, Cersei had no legitimate claim to rule after Tommen "Baratheon" died, yet there she was - presumably out of sheer terror. It might be hard for her to summon that up again, though.

Yup. This is why Cersei tried to convince Euron it was his child. Remember at this point she's probably assumed Jaime is never coming back, either Bronn will kill him, or he'll remain in the North.

If she had won the battle she would've married Euron before the child's birth to legitimize her 4th child with Jaime and that child would've had a claim to Casterly Rock, The Iron Islands and the Iron Throne.

25 minutes ago, stagmania said:

All of this is spot on. The way they've set it up, Dany has snapped and decided to rule through fear. That means all her enemies, anyone who has ever disagreed with her, should be dragon roasted immediately after the battle. But we know that's not what happens - she has a scene with Jon where they chat, she locks Tyrion up even though she just tried that with his brother who was able to escape. She gives them the chance to keep plotting against her and ultimately kill her, against all logic and reason. They can't even write this horrible turn in her character properly.

I don't think it's super out of character for her to not kill Jon immediately. Maybe in that chat she sends him North to deal with Sansa, and she figures, if he does what I say he'll bring Sansa to King's Landing, then I'll either force her to bend the knee, or I'll kill her (and them if I still want to I can kill him too.) and if he betrays me again I'll take my dragon North and burn Winterfell to the ground.

Remember that Aerys didn't kill Brandon Stark immediately either. He used Brandon to lure Lord Rickard to King's Landing, and then he killed both of them.

After taking King's Landing pretty much by herself, Dany has gotta feel pretty invincible right now. I doubt she sees Jon as too big of a threat right now if she's willing to kill him, so she doesn't need to rush to kill him.

I don't understand why she'd lock up Tyrion and not just outright kill him though.

Edited May 15, 2019 by Maximum Taco

Bianca Castafiore · May 15, 2019

I'm looking at the spoilers from u/afraidpart and u/throwaway5873421 to see what's left to be included in episode 6. So afik these are the major scenes left (in no particular order):

- Drogon enters the throne room and melts the throne. Dany makes a speech, everyone is mad at her, Tyrion throws his pin and he is imprisoned. Jon kills Dany in the throne room. Drogon flies away with her body. (u/afraidpart)

- Dany is executing everyone in King's Landing. Jon and Tyrion are upset. Tyrion tries to convince Jon that his family will never be safe because his lineage makes him a threat to Dany's rule. Jon tries to talk to Dany but she justifies her actions. Jon pledges himself to Dany but then stabs her, then surrenders himself. Formation of the council. Tyrion's speech. Jon takes the black again and leaves. Bran is the King or sth similar (u/throwaway).

u/throwaway in a Q&A explained a little bit more his leaks saying that Bran is involved in Jon's decision to take the black again but he doesn't know how. Plus a bunch of other minor stuff that I'm not gonna bring here.

I also noticed that a couple of u/afraidpart leaked scenes were probably cut (like a scece where a horse was cut in half). So are we going to see Drogon melting the throne? And when?

I don't know. Does these seem enough for you for a 80 min episode? I think there is a part of the last episode missing. Maybe there is a Tyrion trial afterall and Dany calls all the rulers and relevant players to witness it, but Jon kills her before the execution? Maybe Jon realises that she is gonna kill Sansa too? I can see Dany at this point not killing her enemies quickly but trying to make an example out of them. It's fear after all. So Jon killing her might not be only a reaction of the KL massacre but allso the horrific things she is planning to do afterwards.

Edited May 15, 2019 by Bianca Castafiore

screamin · May 15, 2019

26 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

I don't understand why she'd lock up Tyrion and not just outright kill him though.

Show trial. She's finished her conquest, she's establishing her court, it's an occasion to throw her power around and see who applauds servilely and who still might dare to raise an objection, for future reference.

YaddaYadda · May 15, 2019

25 minutes ago, Bianca Castafiore said:

u/throwaway in a Q&A explained a little bit more his leaks saying that Bran is involved in Jon's decision to take the black again but he doesn't know how. Plus a bunch of other minor stuff that I'm not gonna bring here.

I can't wrap my head around this. Also, why is anyone listening to Bran? He is the most useless character ever.

The show has made me hate some characters that I used to enjoy.

Constantinople · May 15, 2019

I don't understand the bit about Jon taking the black again

They've led us to believe that there was no Night's Watch left except for Dead Edd, oathbreaking Sam and former member Jon (but then many more Dothraki survived the Long Night than seemed possible).

So is going to reestablish the Night's Watch?

To do what?

Admittedly, the Watch is a useful way to get rid of criminal and political undesirables, but there seems less need to protect the realm from White Walkers and Wildling

Edited to add: Will Bran have a vision about the baby White Walkers who were left in daycare?

Edited May 15, 2019 by Constantinople

SeanC · May 15, 2019

55 minutes ago, Bianca Castafiore said:

I'm looking at the spoilers from u/afraidpart and u/throwaway5873421 to see what's left to be included in episode 6. So afik these are the major scenes left (in no particular order):

- Drogon enters the throne room and melts the throne. Dany makes a speech, everyone is mad at her, Tyrion throws his pin and he is imprisoned. Jon kills Dany in the throne room. Drogon flies away with her body. (u/afraidpart)

- Dany is executing everyone in King's Landing. Jon and Tyrion are upset. Tyrion tries to convince Jon that his family will never be safe because his lineage makes him a threat to Dany's rule. Jon tries to talk to Dany but she justifies her actions. Jon pledges himself to Dany but then stabs her, then surrenders himself. Formation of the council. Tyrion's speech. Jon takes the black again and leaves. Bran is the King or sth similar (u/throwaway).

u/throwaway in a Q&A explained a little bit more his leaks saying that Bran is involved in Jon's decision to take the black again but he doesn't know how. Plus a bunch of other minor stuff that I'm not gonna bring here.

I also noticed that a couple of u/afraidpart leaked scenes were probably cut (like a scece where a horse was cut in half). So are we going to see Drogon melting the throne? And when?

I don't know. Does these seem enough for you for a 80 min episode? I think there is a part of the last episode missing. Maybe there is a Tyrion trial afterall and Dany calls all the rulers and relevant players to witness it, but Jon kills her before the execution? Maybe Jon realises that she is gonna kill Sansa too? I can see Dany at this point not killing her enemies quickly but trying to make an example out of them. It's fear after all. So Jon killing her might not be only a reaction of the KL massacre but allso the horrific things she is planning to do afterwards.

I think those two leaks are a bit inconsistent on the details, though broadly in agreement.

While God knows the writers aren’t especially consistent with characters, Sansa would never in a million years travel to King’s Landing with Dany still alive at this point. It sounds to me like things with Dany and Jon come to a head quite quickly after the massacre, which is what you would expect.

Stallion12 · May 15, 2019

I feel like they should make a movie to be the true ending. Get good writers, because honestly this season is terrible. I know they can't add seasons, but dies d@d have movie control too?

Affogato · May 15, 2019

39 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

I don't understand the bit about Jon taking the black again

They've led us to believe that there was no Night's Watch left except for Dead Edd, oathbreaking Sam and former member Jon (but then many more Dothraki survived the Long Night than seemed possible).

So is going to reestablish the Night's Watch?

To do what?

Admittedly, the Watch is a useful way to get rid of criminal and political undesirables, but there seems less need to protect the realm from White Walkers and Wildling

Edited to add: Will Bran have a vision about the baby White Walkers who were left in daycare?

I’m half convinced the WW swirl pattern will show up at some point. Raven from tormund and ghost. MAybe Jon will warg. But yes a place to make criminals and excess sons is useful.

Minneapple · May 15, 2019

2 minutes ago, Affogato said:

I’m half convinced the WW swirl pattern will show up at some point. Raven from tormund and ghost. MAybe Jon will warg. But yes a place to make criminals and excess sons is useful.

Yes, there was a spoiler saying it would show up again, that Jon would go up North and find wildling bodies in the spiral shape.

18 minutes ago, Stallion12 said:

I feel like they should make a movie to be the true ending. Get good writers, because honestly this season is terrible. I know they can't add seasons, but dies d@d have movie control too?

Not happening.

Maximum Taco · May 15, 2019

10 minutes ago, Affogato said:

I’m half convinced the WW swirl pattern will show up at some point. Raven from tormund and ghost. MAybe Jon will warg. But yes a place to make criminals and excess sons is useful.

Raven from Ghost?

"Bark, bark bark bark

Signed, Pawprint."

Brn2bwild · May 15, 2019

33 minutes ago, SeanC said:

I think those two leaks are a bit inconsistent on the details, though broadly in agreement.

While God knows the writers aren’t especially consistent with characters, Sansa would never in a million years travel to King’s Landing with Dany still alive at this point. It sounds to me like things with Dany and Jon come to a head quite quickly after the massacre, which is what you would expect.

I would laugh if Daenerys decided to jet up to Winterfell on Drogon to confront/kill Sansa, and they ended up having a philosophical conversation about ruling. Then when Arya and Jon finally arrive, expecting to find Sansa dead, they see her with Dany, who's like: "Y'all, we've mended our differences. Sansa's agreed to be Hand of the Queen."

ShellsandCheese · May 15, 2019

8 hours ago, GraceK said:

Honestly? The only realistic outcome is for Daenaerys to actually remain Queen, and to continue her reign through terror. Or not terror per sei, but having conquered, realize that it’s ashes in her mouth and literally as well, and that she will have to always govern by fear. She may be a benevolent Queen afterwards, but she seized by conquest and devastation and that’s her legacy. Because seriously, she is unbeatable. She made a very powerful statement. Do not fuck with me. She’s fireproof. Drogon in this episode did what three dragons couldn’t do. And he’s still technically a teenage dragon. She has unsullied, Dothraki. Realistically, she is Aegon the Conqueror reborn . No one should fuck with her after this .

But, being David and Dan who don’t care about these things, somehow Jon is gonna be able to kill her and her armies are gonna disperse peacefully I guess, and Arya will be a dragon slayer? I mean, how are they gonna resolve this ? 🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️

I agree. And 80 minutes is not enough to wipe out all of the loose ends. Let's say Dany dies, what happens to The Unsullied, The Dothraki, and Drogon? Do they just scamper away peacefully? That should be the ending, Aegon the Conqueror reborn. But D&D don't have the balls to go there - they actually stick to tropes while saying they want to break them.

screamin · May 15, 2019

26 minutes ago, Affogato said:

I’m half convinced the WW swirl pattern will show up at some point. Raven from tormund and ghost. MAybe Jon will warg. But yes a place to make criminals and excess sons is useful.

But if magic is going out of the world (as the Children of the Forest predict) who and how is anyone to repair the breach in the wall? That wall needs magic to stand and endure.

Affogato · May 15, 2019

34 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

Raven from Ghost?

"Bark, bark bark bark

Signed, Pawprint."

Woof snuffle snuffle snort snarl.

I wonder how smart the wolves are? If this is an alien planet.....

AuntieMame · May 15, 2019

10 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

Nah. Just do what I plan to, mentally call them The Last Battle. I’ve reread all of the chronicles of narnia many many times except for that horrible “Heaven is better but Susan doesn’t go because she likes pantyhose” which also ended with a literal train crash and Aslan ex machina. That book I think I’ve read a total of twice.

Except we didn’t see small folk dying in long extended shots of anybody but dany. We HEARD about Dothraki rape. Never sW it. So no. It’s not balanced as far as representation. There’s a world of difference in a visual medium between characters reporting and is seeing, and it was done deliberately. The horrors of war were talked about and never show- until now. Very manipulative, as was the tragic heroine edit cersei got complete with luminous pale lighting, teary delusion and sad cellos.

I love TCoNarnia too lucindabelle and hated The Last Battle even when I was a little girl.

You make a very good point about the viewer being manipulated by the visceral scenes of war in The Bells. For all that this show has veered to spectacle once source material was exhausted, these war scenes showed the suffering in a way we haven't seen. And it is to support the madness of Dany narrati

I would have watched the scion of a deposed royal family slowly go insane while pursuing a pyrrhic restoration with relish. We weren't shown this, even with some of Dany's more questionable choices and actions. I never thought Dany would rule Westeros - too obvious.

Ditto with Jon Snow. I wish they'd left Jon dead after his Ceasaring. I always thought it would have been very interesting to have Jon revealed as Azor or the PtwP and then watch mere humans meeting an existential threat WITHOUT their mythical, mystical messiah figure that gives them their only chance of victory. Plus cope with the loss of a person. That would have truly been trope busting. As far as I can tell, Jon Snows only virtue is being pretty and that is starting to pall.

Though I know people who consider him a favorite too, so go figure.

Edited May 15, 2019 by AuntieMame

mirandroid · May 15, 2019

Quote

If Dany dies I'm guessing Grey Worm and Drogon aren't too far behind her 😥. Grey Worm will try to avenge her but be taken out (possibly Aryas last kill).

Ugh. The only thing that would make the ending worse for me would be Arya using Missandei's face to kill Grey Worm.

Stallion12 · May 15, 2019

26 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

Yes, there was a spoiler saying it would show up again, that Jon would go up North and find wildling bodies in the spiral shape.

Not happening.

I meant more like what happened with deadwood, especially if the outrage is that big.

Couver · May 15, 2019

Why would Drogon leave peacefully after someone kills his mother? Even though the dragons clearly sensed something Targaryn in Jon they never bonded with him the way they did with Dany. Even Rhaegal didn't imprint on Jon that much. Makes no sense. But I'll take it because Drogon lives and that's I guess the happiest ending I can hope for now.

And maybe that speculation that because Drogon lives the WW return is true. A reverse of the WW existing at the start of the series causing the return of dragons. Although the show has not built up that type of mythology around either the WW or dragons.

Edited May 15, 2019 by Couver

Stallion12 · May 15, 2019

Just now, Couver said:

Why would Drogon leave peacefully after someone kills his mother? Even though the dragons clearly sensed something Targaryn in Jon they never bonded with him the way they did with Dany. Even Rhaegal didn't imprint on Jon that much. Makes no sense. But I'll take it because Drogon lives and that's I guess the happiest ending I can hope for now.

Bran wargs into him?

Raachel2008 · May 15, 2019

10 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

I know what it means and I Obviously used it quite deliberately. Why would I NOT be using it deliberately in a post about sexism? Please, be polite and answer without insulting me. I also dint accept excuses for some female characters and how they are written

I apologize if you fell like I was insulting you, that wasn't my intention at all.

But when do you think the writers have portrayed the women in the show as hysterical? it is an honest question here, because I don't think they did, death scnenes aside.

10 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

Except we didn’t see small folk dying in long extended shots of anybody but dany. We HEARD about Dothraki rape. Never sW it. So no. It’s not balanced as far as representation. There’s a world of difference in a visual medium between characters reporting and is seeing, and it was done deliberately. The horrors of war were talked about and never show- until now. Very manipulative, as was the tragic heroine edit cersei got complete with luminous pale lighting, teary delusion and sad cellos.

But of course it was done deliberately; if you show children being burned/killed every other season you lost the impact you want to tell. That's a narrative fact, and very true in real life. People become "numb" to this horror, which is one thing that GRRM always stressed as long as his oposition with that.

We saw Jaime raping Cersei. We saw the aftermath of the Dorathki raping peope in season 1 - some say we saw rape. We know what Ramsay did to Sansa, who, by the way, was almost raped in the riot in King's Landing so many seasons ago. We saw a North soldier trying to rape a woman. As far as rape go, we had plenty of proof they happened on the show.

My point is that I don't think Dany being cruel and ruthless is sexist. Are female characters supposed to not be evil? They should always be right? Smart? Brave? Courageous? They cannot be scared, or angry, or violent, or feminine or princess like?

Or the problem is because a fan favorite crossed that line, said fuck it all and unleashed hell?

Edited May 15, 2019 by Raachel2008

lucindabelle · May 15, 2019

It’s not that a dany is a fan favorite.

its the representation of how she without any clear motivation became a monster.

and yes we’ve HEARD about atrocities but the only ones we’ve SEEN were against our named characters.

this episode took long long LONG lingering scenes of unnamed women and children. This is all done deliberately so we’ll see that dany is worse than everyone else.

i resent that.

AuntieMame · May 15, 2019

21 minutes ago, mirandroid said:

Ugh. The only thing that would make the ending worse for me would be Arya using Missandei's face to kill Grey Worm.

Oh for the sevens sake, please don't give them any ideas. It would be a bad replay of Wesley's death on angel.

AuntieMame · May 15, 2019

18 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

My point is that I don't think Dany being cruel and ruthless is sexist. Are female characters supposed to not be evil? They should always be right? Smart? Brave? Courageous? They cannot be scared, or angry, or violent, or feminine or princess like?

Or the problem is because a fan favorite crossed that line, said fuck it all and unleashed hell?

Yes, women can be evil and power hungry and corrupt. I've already stated this other places in the thread. Yes, we've gotten clues before about Dany being willing to cut corners ethically. The Unsullied spring to mind.

But Dany, according to the show, went crazy because the North didn't immediately give her adoration on the Mysha level and further because Jon Snow won't be her boyfriend. Not the loss of Missandei or the dragons or the bulk of her armies, but because this just looks like Dany is in a snit because she isn't the prettiest girl in the seventh grade. No examination even of the issues with restoring deposed dynasties. Just basically Dany pouting and because she has a dragon her pouting includes the slaughter of innocents. That is what is sexist (not to mention plain bad) about the writing.

Edited May 15, 2019 by AuntieMame

Hana Chan · May 15, 2019

14 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

My point is that I don't think Dany being cruel and ruthless is sexist. Are female characters supposed to not be evil? They should always be right? Smart? Brave? Courageous? They cannot be scared, or angry, or violent, or feminine or princess like?

Or the problem is because a fan favorite crossed that line, said fuck it all and unleashed hell?

^^THIS!^^

One thing that I've always loved about this show is that every character (with the exception of Joffrey and Ramsey who are just plain THE WORST) are allowed to be multi-dimensional figures with good and bad qualities. That allowed us to see the humanity in Cersei, even while we were cheering for her death. Or why we could get redemptive storylines for characters like Sandor. We can have the best fall short of their ideals, see even "good" characters engage in some pretty terrible cruelties. Everyone gets to be a mixed bag.

And how many men have we had that didn't turn out to be total bags of dicks? The list is pretty short. Jon, Sam, Bran, Davos maybe (and even they had moments where their behavior did get called into question). Women are just as capable of evil acts as men and treating them as being a special class of characters that should not ever be seen as doing something wrong is not just dishonest storytelling - it's boring. Sansa was a snore until she found some spine, and Olena will always be a delight to me because she was a tough, calculating old broad. That Dany is more than the silver haired princess with dragons makes her, at least, interesting.

Dany arrived in Westeros with two fearsome armies at her back - one of former slaves that would obey her every word and the second made up of tribe known throughout the world for ferocity, pillaging and rape. Not to mention three dragons that she has used repeatedly to kill those opposed to her. She did not have any plans to hold tea parties. She arrived at Dragonstone, plopped her ass onto her stone throne and demanded all to bend the knee to her.

Dany woke the dragon within her and KL burned. I'm still not sure why anyone is supposed to be surprised about this.

Jextella · May 15, 2019

It makes sense to me that Dany should live and rule. She's got more military might than all the rest at this point. And if spoilers are true, it could still be the case that we see her armor Drogon for even more protection. I feel the only ones who can kill Dany at this point would be Jon if they have an intimate moment/discussion and she leaves herself vulnerable or Arya if she dons a mask. Only Sansa knows about this little trick if I'm not mistaken.

I have been confused as to why Tyrion has supported Dany all this time - and staunchly so - even though he knows deep down Varys' concerns were well-rooted. It would be odd if there weren't more to this story given that Tryion is portrayed as someone who cares about people.

For me, it would make the most sense if Tyrion turned out to be a Targaryen.

As to the Starks and the North and Bran, they could just keep on keepin' on, although if Dany rules, they might be toast.

CherryMalotte · May 15, 2019

40 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

Let's say Dany dies, what happens to The Unsullied, The Dothraki, and Drogon?

Yeah, that's what I'm trying to wrap my brain on - if Jon gives Dany a valarian steel kiss then what is Gray Worm going to do, just stand there and glower? Oh hell no. And while I'm at it anybody else speak Dothraki left in KL? Have many of the Dothraki picked up the common tongue since their time in Westeros? Just curious...

Which means possibly somebody else does the deed instead of Jon despite what the leaks or spoilers or educated and uneducated guesses pointed to. Jon may be joining the wildings because he's had enough of the killing and political bullshit to last a few lifetimes and his choices in women are not always the best as they've ended up dead and very very pissed off. I keep thinking Arya creeping about is going to come into play here as a catalyst to Jon or helping any damage to Dany happen.

Been thinking about the various characters today, and it does make a woman sad not to see a man again. Very very sad.

ShellsandCheese · May 15, 2019

8 minutes ago, Jextella said:

It makes sense to me that Dany should live and rule. She's got more military might than all the rest at this point. And if spoilers are true, it could still be the case that we see her armor Drogon for even more protection. I feel the only ones who can kill Dany at this point would be Jon if they have an intimate moment/discussion and she leaves herself vulnerable or Arya if she dons a mask. Only Sansa knows about this little trick if I'm not mistaken.

I have been confused as to why Tyrion has supported Dany all this time - and staunchly so - even though he knows deep down Varys' concerns were well-rooted. It would be odd if there weren't more to this story given that Tryion is portrayed as someone who cares about people.

For me, it would make the most sense if Tyrion turned out to be a Targaryen.

As to the Starks and the North and Bran, they could just keep on keepin' on, although if Dany rules, they might be toast.

Were Vary's concerns well rooted though? Prior to this season, the only issue Varys had with Dany was that she killed the Tarly's - and all of a sudden after she helps defeat the WW and takes some heavy losses he's concerned that she'll go mad to the point where he is actively trying to poison her and get everyone else to follow Jon Snow without so much as a conversation with Dany.

I don't think Tyrion is a Targ. Either for purposes of the show or in the books. Tyrion was someone who was always trying to help his family; maybe he didn't even realize he was doing it.

Basically, Tyrion and Varys have been giving Dany bad advice for the last few seasons under the guise of it being better for the innocents when really it appears they both were biding time because neither was really all in for Dany. Dany should have taken King's Landing and the Red Keep when she first arrived as she planned. If she had one could argue that all three of her "children" would still be alive, not to mention that she may not have loss Jorah and Missendei. As others have said, I think that's why Dany was so angry. She realized once the bells rang out just how easy it all was and she was pissed about all of the time she pissed away and all the unnecessary loss she suffered listening to Tyrion (who continued to try and save his family until the last moment) and Varys (who broke a promise to her and was trying to kill her).

I've decided at this point, there really is no way to have an authentic conclusion to this series. It's going to be fan service and hokey. It's also going to be full of tropes - I can see it now.

Edited May 15, 2019 by ShellsandCheese

kittykat · May 15, 2019

If Sansa and Bran do have to travel to Kings Ashes then it could be that Dany forces Jon to send a Raven to them. Sansa recognizes the context of the letter is eerily similar to the one Cersei made her send to Robb in S1. They can't call the banners because most are already south plus, dragon. So Sansa plays the long game and takes the gamble by traveling hoping she can convince Jon that Dany can't rule. Pretend to acquiesce by bending the knee but hope Jon or Arya kills her.

spaceghostess · May 15, 2019

In the absence of Drogon spoilers (except for melting the IT and the one where he flies away with Dany, which I'm not 100% buying), I maintain my last week's spec:

1. Jon, being the only person other than Tyrion or Dany who can approach Drogon safely, distracts him with some petting/snausages while somebody else (Davos?) snipers him with a surviving ballista;

2. Jon then Old Yellers Dany in much the same way: "I don't care if you're my aunt. I love you; let's do it." She falls for it; he makes with the stabbity; she tells him on her dying breath that there is/was a Starkgaryen bun in the oven.*

Also, a question: Remember how Dany (the genocidal maniac) got Yara to agree that reaving and raping would be crossed off the Iron Islanders' to-do lists? What will happen with that once she's gone? Will her edict have any meaning to that culture, even to Yara, after she's ignominiously taken down?

*Not necessarily in this order and assuming that Dany and Drogon aren't together at all times.

Edited May 15, 2019 by spaceghostess
clarification

kittykat · May 15, 2019

She also promised Yara in 6.9 that the Iron Islands would rule as an independent kingdom on the grounds that they discontinued the reaving and raping. Dany will probably renege and make Yara bend the knee but I don't expect the other stuff to come up.

haje · May 15, 2019

I've managed to accept most of these leaks are real but Bran being King is something that mind cannot genuinely comprehend. Even if it's just him as Head of a Council (with all men apparently wow), I still cannot buy into it. He's a non-entity. He's basically a meme at this point. They're going to try to justify this by them pushing the "maybe the best ruler is someone who doesn't want to rule?" and then call back to Bran's "I don't want anymore" and then have it be that and that is going to be such a major cop-out.

Edited May 15, 2019 by haje

ShellsandCheese · May 15, 2019

44 minutes ago, kittykat said:

If Sansa and Bran do have to travel to Kings Ashes then it could be that Dany forces Jon to send a Raven to them. Sansa recognizes the context of the letter is eerily similar to the one Cersei made her send to Robb in S1. They can't call the banners because most are already south plus, dragon. So Sansa plays the long game and takes the gamble by traveling hoping she can convince Jon that Dany can't rule. Pretend to acquiesce by bending the knee but hope Jon or Arya kills her.

I really don't think Sansa cares that much. All she wants is to be left alone to rule the North. Also, if nothing else, the last episode showed that Jon would be a crappy King. His own forces didn't listen to him and went about unleashing their rage on the women and children of KL. While it did appear that at least the Unsullied and Dothraki only attacked men (but I could be wrong).

Say what you want about Dany but her people do listen to her. As soon as Grey Worm knew she wasn't relenting he followed her lead.

She also promised Yara in 6.9 that the Iron Islands would rule as an independent kingdom on the grounds that they discontinued the reaving and raping. Dany will probably renege and make Yara bend the knee but I don't expect the other stuff to come up.

I don't think she'd renege if she actually ruled (and that's looking doubtful). That's why I'll never understand why instead of being a snot, Sansa didn't try to negotiate for Northern Independence. Everyone wants to proclaim that she's so smart, well if she were so smart, she would have seen that what Dany wanted was to be loved and appreciated and she would have flattered the fuck out of her to get what she wanted - not approach her with hostility. How Sansa handled her approach to Dany was enough to convince me that all the talk about Sansa being so smart was just BS.

Edited May 15, 2019 by ShellsandCheese

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