S04.E19: All The Madame's Men

[paigow]

Daisy teams up with an unlikely partner; Aida prepares to put her endgame into effect.

[MisterGlass]

They did it again with this one.  I did not guess that being a real girl was Aida's goal.  Next week is going to be intense.

I really enjoyed Coulson's little speech, much as I knew what was coming.

Interesting twist that Victoria Hand got to Ward in this instead of Garrett.

And whoever is tracking past season continuity gets top marks again for this episode.  I couldn't believe Bakshi doing the state media, and there was some crawl along the bottom about the Malik family.

[Jediknight]

"My name is Phil Coulson, and I'm an agent of SHIELD."

Freaking awesome.  That was one of the best moments ever in this show.

It's amazing how much this framework arc is destroying every other superhero show.

[mac123x]

So now we get to play the guessing game of who in the Framework gets a real body back in the real world!  I'm going to say... [rolling some dice]... Mack's daughter.  Except that's way too happy-ending and they'll want to set up a plotline for next season (assuming they're renewed).  So now I'm going to guess Ophelia/AIDA will get a body and it'll get killed, and Framework!Fitz will also get a body and survive, so next season we can deal with DupliFitz.  That might also save Real!Fitz from having to deal with the trauma of his behavior in the Framework, if all the memories go with DupliFitz.

[xqueenfrostine]

Another great episode!  This has definitely been one of my favorite story arcs of the entire series.  

I liked the twist that in the Framework it was Victoria Hand and not John Garrett that recruited Ward from juvie.  It produces an interesting parallel between him and Fitz.  Both became monsters under the guidance of harsh father figures, but turned out to be better people when they had more maternal influences.  I don't think that juxtaposition is accidental.

Did anyone else catch Bakshi's furniture shopping reference?  There's a news junkie in the AoS writers' room that's peppering in these little gems.  Last week it was "Nevertheless, she persisted" and this week we get a reference to Trump's seduction tactics with Nancy O'Dell.

[Minneapple]

Just now, xqueenfrostine said:

Did anyone else catch Bakshi's furniture shopping reference?  There's a news junkie in the AoS writers' room that's peppering in these little gems.  Last week it was "Nevertheless, she persisted" and this week we get a reference to Trump's seduction tactics with Nancy O'Dell.

Not to mention the straight up "alternative facts" reference.

[SnoGirl]

Garrett was on the scroll AND on the multiple screens too with the phrase "In Memory of an American Hero." What a sweet shout-out Shield. And, it tells us he was still Hydra. I wonder if Paxton hadnt passed, if he would have made an appearance.

I was impressed with Jemma's inferences of what Aida was making (or handwaving, whatever you want to call it). I did like the scene of Jemma and Tripp versus the Russia. Although, fool me too early, I really thought we'd see Bobbi and Hunter burst through the doors.

So, whose going to end up with a real body? Ward? Trip? Hope? Because they can't pass up that opportunity right? Someone who is dead is so coming back.

[MisterGlass]

9 minutes ago, mac123x said:

Framework!Fitz will also get a body and survive, so next season we can deal with DupliFitz.

Oh, that's an idea.  Though I think it would have to be DoppelFitz.

[Chaos Theory]

I liked the twist that Coulson said no and that Ward said yes but to Hand. Two lives going in completely different directions by a single decision.

it looks like this episode Coulson is becoming the man he was always meant to be.

its always nice to see Daisy and May fight together.

i am curious now if Ward will survive into the real world.  I was pretty sure this episode would be him finally getting the hero death he always wanted but bringing him into the real world brings interesting problems.  

Edited April 26, 2017 by Chaos Theory

[thuganomics85]

Ha!  I remember last week's episode mentioning "The Bakshi Report", but I loved seeing him and it in all of it's "Heil Hydra!" propaganda glory!  It was like he was a mixture of Cesar from The Hunger Games and Bill O'Reily, although, really, Bakshi is still way more charismatic then the latter.

A lot of great references in this one.  The Victoria Hand mention was nice, but the John Garrett picture during Bakshi's telecast was a nice touch.  Still miss Bill Paxton.

Loved the Simmons and Trip team.  I remember enjoying their interactions in the past (OK, yes, I tend to enjoy any interactions involving Simmons in general), so I was glad to see them together.  And I love that Trip of all people, is the one who believes Simmons theories about this not being the real world.  He seems like someone who would be open to any brand of craziness, considering everything they've gone through.

Melinda and Daisy kicking ass and taking names together, is always fun.  Curious to see how Melinda will handle the guilt over her part in the bombing and Mace's death. And I like that Mack doesn't fully trust her, because even though viewers and Daisy know Melinda is sincere, there wouldn't be a reason for him to fully believe her yet.

I'm always a sucker for whenever a scary villain suddenly gets unnerved, so Framework Fitz's flinch when Alistair yelled at him was a good moment.  Really sells how much of a bastard he probably is.  But Fitz still scares me the most.  He is totally into Ophelia/Aida and will do anything and harm anything for her.

Aida's grand plan is to make herself human, huh?  And The Superior is back into play too.

Totally think this arc is going to end with either Ward or Trip coming back into the real world.  Or maybe Hope.

Coulson ended the episode like a boss.  Overall, another great episode in a very impressive streak.  Keep it coming, show!

[Tiger]

Another amazing fucking episode.  I loved the twist of Hand, instead of Garrett, having recruited Ward.  And I'm happy the Ward and SkyeWard fans got this 'goodbye'.

12 minutes ago, SnoGirl said:

Garrett was on the scroll AND on the multiple screens too with the phrase "In Memory of an American Hero." What a sweet shout-out Shield. And, it tells us he was still Hydra. I wonder if Paxton hadnt passed, if he would have made an appearance.

I was impressed with Jemma's inferences of what Aida was making (or handwaving, whatever you want to call it). I did like the scene of Jemma and Tripp versus the Russia. Although, fool me too early, I really thought we'd see Bobbi and Hunter burst through the doors.

So, whose going to end up with a real body? Ward? Trip? Hope? Because they can't pass up that opportunity right? Someone who is dead is so coming back.

I still think Hunter & Bobbi are going to show up, even briefly, at some point.

I think it'll be Tripp that gets a real body and crosses over.  And I say bring on TrippSimmons.  

ETA: with Fitz, I think he'll retain his Framework memories and we'll get some sort of Jekyll/Hyde story.

Edited April 26, 2017 by Tiger

[Lady Calypso]

Not many shows, if any, can actually have a better season later on in their run. Yet somehow, this show has managed to create an arc that may actually be my favourite of the series.

I definitely teared up when I saw their John Garrett reference at the beginning of the episode. It was definitely the best shout out for a deceased actor that I've seen. Man, I wonder if they had actually considered bringing Bill Paxton in for a cameo before he passed. I know they said they hadn't but I can't imagine it's something they didn't consider briefly with all of this Ward stuff.

Speaking of Ward, I think I'm leaning toward the show wanting to bring Brett Dalton back as Good!Ward. I imagine he'll get pretty close to joining them in the real world, at the very least. They ARE giving Grant Ward a redemption arc, after all. And I don't hate it? Well, it'll either be Ward or Hope that will be put into the real world, and I get the feeling that it won't be for Mack. He can't just have happy things, and there'll probably be some extenuating circumstance that'll have him pissed when Hope can't come through with him. As much as I'd rather it was Hope, I don't know if they'd want to bring a kid onto the show. I'm feeling fairly confident that it could be Ward, although they're giving him a perfect way to close out his story with a redemption arc and with all sides of his fanbase happy. I mean, besides the probably dying bit. 

I am feeling more sure that it could be The Doctor!Fitz. It could be a fun way to have a twin twist on the show without it being actual twins, but two sides of the same person. Hey, I could go for Double Trouble with Leopold Fitz! I don't think they'd bring his dad through because as far as we're aware, Daddy Fitz is still alive and kicking in the real world. I don't think they're bringing Radcliffe back either, as much as I'd love it. I think Radcliffe's story will be done once he sacrifices himself for the team. Ophelia/Aida is not surviving past this season either. 

Either they're closing the season with a cliffhanger (probably not, since their show is on the bubble) or they'll end it happily. So happy=probably Grant Ward coming through, and cliffhanger=probably The Doctor/Fitz. Heh. Maybe it's Bakshi. 

[MostlyC]

Speaking of Ward, I think I'm leaning toward the show wanting to bring Brett Dalton back as Good!Ward. I

Yes, please.  I loved Ward when he was a good guy.

[SnoGirl]

So, was the title of this episode supposed to be a future spoiler, because after Humpty Dumpty fell, all the King's men still couldnt put him back again?

[Lantern7]

Did not think that Framework Folk might come back to the "real world." We are never going to be rid of Ward, are we? "In this world, Victoria Hand didn't save me? Did I ever meet her?" "Weeeeeeeeeeeelllllllll . . . " Still thinking Hope's actress could make a lovely Lunella Lafayette.

Nice that Daisy healed after metamorphosis, because she got worked over so hard last week.

Nice that most of the gang is going back to their traditional places. Well, except for Fitz, who is still very much evil. On the bright side, at least Daisy messed up Ophelia, for all the good it did.

How much time has passed in the "real world"? Hate to think the Quinjet has been in the air for so long.

[xqueenfrostine]

23 minutes ago, SnoGirl said:

So, was the title of this episode supposed to be a future spoiler, because after Humpty Dumpty fell, all the King's men still couldnt put him back again?

Possibly.  I assumed it was a reference to All The President's Men, though your suggestion ties in better with Ophelia's fall.

[Jediknight]

1 hour ago, Tiger said:

I still think Hunter & Bobbi are going to show up, even briefly, at some point.

Maybe they'll be the people who showed up outside the television studio wanting to help fight.

[diadochokinesis]

Oh, this show!  I do so love this arc. 

I want Trip, Hope, and Ward brought back.  We got such a short run with Trip and a short run with Good Ward that I would love to see them back.  And I want Good Ward.  Not Good Ward Goes Bad. Bad Ward had an obsession with SkyeDaisy that (I believe) was born out of true affection/love for her but got twisted because Bad Ward twists everything.  So, let's see what Good Ward does because it seems like the foundation of the relationship is the same. I also want Framework Ward to stay true to who he was in the Framework and be faced with what Real Ward did. I want to see how he deals with it.  Think about the philosophical discussions that could be had. 

As someone else pointed out, it is also interesting to see how one significant relationship in a person's life can have such an altering effect. Look at Fitz and Ward.  You switch out who had the negative influence and it completely changed that person and their life. 

[VCRTracking]

Oh god I'm scared FrameworkFitz is going to come back in real Fitz' body. Seeing Fitz as a brainwashed Hydra agent is more upsetting to me than Steve Rogers in the comics TBH.

As much as I enjoyed Brett Dalton as full on evil Ward, seeing Framework Ward makes me think the real one could have really had a good and believable redemption arc.

Loved seeing Daisy and Mama May kicking ass together. Quake using her powers to send Madame Hydra falling 20 stories was very satisfying.

This moment made me laugh:

(white lady across the street sees them and runs away)

May: You see that look?

Daisy: Maybe they're just racist.

"Alternative facts" man they are not holding back.

[Minneapple]

Dammit, I actually like FrameWard. Why are they doing this to me? I liked when Ward went evil at the end of season 1 and when they didn't redeem him. But FrameWard is actually a Good Guy. Tonight I actually shipped him with Daisy for a minute WHICH MAKE IT STOP PLEASE. 

I loved all the teamy goodness. Daisy and May kicking ass together! I may have stood up and screamed "YES" when Daisy Quaked AIDA out of the window. Awesome moment. And Tripp and Jemma and he told her "Come on, girl." And Daisy's proud little look at Coulson and Coulson and May together and it was all wonderful. Is it wrong that I'm going to miss the Framework? 

[Vyk]

While I agree with the many here who like this good version of Ward, I think that goodbye between him and Daisy was pretty final.  I don't think he's coming back with them, no matter how much you all want him to.  Just not happening.  The past should be left where it is -- in the past.

Tripp was as enjoyable as ever, and he made a good team with Simmons.  Also did enjoy Daisy and May together, especially when Daisy used her powers on Aida the way she did.  Even though I knew she wouldn't die.

I really think this might be my favorite arc this show's given us.  But I really wish Bobbi and Hunter had been here to be part of it, too.  Would've been interesting to see whether they'd have been swapped with their own LMDs or hacked their way in with Daisy and Simmons.

[Sandman]

I am really tired of Alistair Fitz. I'm not entirely convinced by the show's idea that changing one influence in someone's life could change their nature completely. Not that De Caestecker's not killing the role of the Doctor -- he's fantastic. Maybe I just don't buy the whole "turn someone evil" trope. And Fitz Sr. is a bully, and a bore.

I presume that someone among Hope, Trip and FrameWard will get an organic body and chance in the real world (my money's on FrameWard), but I long to see the end of the Doctor. And a Fitzelgänger storyline would make me tear my hair in frustration.

[Traveller519]

That furniture line was so freaking fantastic. I shot up in my seat, and possibly actually slapped my knee. I love that in the middle of this whole allegory, they're not hesitant to throw some shade.

Count me among the many who never wanted a Ward redemption, but are pleasantly intrigued by how well it's been done here. It feels genuine and deserved despite happening in an alternative universe.

[mac123x]

1 hour ago, Sandman said:

I am really tired of Alistair Fitz. I'm not entirely convinced by the show's idea that changing one influence in someone's life could change their nature completely.

I think AIDA tipped her hand this week.  She's set up the scenario inside the Framework so that Frame!Fitz will develop Project Looking Glass so she can have a fully human body back in the real world.  When she says she just fixed one regret in each person's life, she's omitting information. "Leopold regretted that his father wasn't part of his life, so I changed that."  Left unsaid is "I also made sure that there weren't any good influences in his life like his mother or Jemma Simmons and turned the world into a Hydra-ran hellhole so he'd turn evil and I could manipulate him into helping me with my ultimate goals."

1 hour ago, Sandman said:

Fitzelgänger

We have a winner!  Much better than DupliFitz.

[Sandman]

5 minutes ago, mac123x said:

"Leopold regretted that his father wasn't part of his life, so I changed that." 

It seems to me that Leopold's actual regret might have been not just that his father abandoned the family, but that his father was an abusive asshat who abandoned his family. Miss AIDA only changed the latter part of that regret, and quite possibly for the reason mac123x gives.

Edited April 26, 2017 by Sandman

[xqueenfrostine]

3 hours ago, Vyk said:

While I agree with the many here who like this good version of Ward, I think that goodbye between him and Daisy was pretty final.  I don't think he's coming back with them, no matter how much you all want him to.  Just not happening.  The past should be left where it is -- in the past.

I agree and I think it's notable that once FrameWard fully bought into the idea that he's living in a computer sim, he seemed more hopeful that he'll get his old Skye back once Daisy leaves the Framework than he was put off that he wouldn't be following the real folk back to the real world.  And that makes sense.  A happy ending for this redeemed version of Ward isn't to get a human body in the Framework, it's to be able to keep living his life with the person he loves (Skye, not Daisy) and defeat HYDRA within his own world.

Trip seems like a more likely person to come through to the real world since he easily bought Simmon's story and has no apparent ties to this world, though I don't think he's coming back either.  When the season ends, I expect EvilFitz will be the only person to have crossed over.

 

28 minutes ago, mac123x said:

I think AIDA tipped her hand this week.  She's set up the scenario inside the Framework so that Frame!Fitz will develop Project Looking Glass so she can have a fully human body back in the real world.  When she says she just fixed one regret in each person's life, she's omitting information. "Leopold regretted that his father wasn't part of his life, so I changed that."  Left unsaid is "I also made sure that there weren't any good influences in his life like his mother or Jemma Simmons and turned the world into a Hydra-ran hellhole so he'd turn evil and I could manipulate him into helping me with my ultimate goals

But that begs the question of why Aida would need Fitz to be evil in order to get him to work on her machine.  She needed Fitz to be in love with her, sure, but a good Fitz would be just as motivated to build a machine that could save the person he saw as the love of his life as a bad one.   We know from the real world that Fitz would literally cross the universe to save a loved one.  Aida doesn't need him to be evil to tap into that.  Aida could have just as easily designed herself to be head of SHIELD as she was head of HYDRA, or head of a government or a immensely powerful multinational corporation, and the outcome would likely have been the same.  

After this episode, I still believe that Aida has shaped herself to fit the current Framework more than she's shaped the Framework to fit her.  We haven't seen signs of her micromanaging the Framework while Daisy and Simmons have been inside (by, say, giving someone within the resistance the motive to betray Daisy and Simmons and hand them over to her), which reinforces my belief that she's limited in her ability to do so.  I especially believe that now that it's been fully established that Aida is still bound by the programming Radcliffe built into her.  That may also mean that she's bound to follow the basic rules Radcliffe put in place for the framework.

Plus, I do think the show intends for us to believe the "one change in a person's life can change a person entirely" theory, even if it's been less than successful in convincing parts of the audience of that.  That was the purpose of giving Radcliffe his "one sentence can change everything" speech last week.  It was the writers using the character to speak to the audience as much as it was Radcliffe speaking to Skye.  And as I said up thread, I think the parallels between Fitz and Wars are intentional, but those parallels would have no meaning if Aida handcrafted Fitz's evil.

[Chicago Redshirt]

Maybe it's just that I rewatched The Matrix the other day, but it seems like it would be fairly simple to figure out where in the Framework Daisy, Jemma and now May are and where in the real world Daisy and Jemma put themselves in the Framework. By contrast with the Matrix where there were just a handful of sentient programs, seemingly every single person besides Aida, Fitz, Radcliffe, Daisy, Coulson, May, Jemma, Mac and the late Mace are computer simulations. 

[Teitr Styrr]

Oh my. So project Looking Glass is gonna give programs a real body. DoctorFitz, Ward, Tripp and/or Hope.  I am curious how many and who. And, I'm also good will all those choices. Each one could give us some good stories in the real world. Even if they do bring Hope, they don't have to have her in many episodes, so the whole kid actor thing isn't a big deal, although I think she's a great little actress!

[Chaos Theory]

46 minutes ago, Teitr Styrr said:

Oh my. So project Looking Glass is gonna give programs a real body. DoctorFitz, Ward, Tripp and/or Hope.  I am curious how many and who. And, I'm also good will all those choices. Each one could give us some good stories in the real world. Even if they do bring Hope, they don't have to have her in many episodes, so the whole kid actor thing isn't a big deal, although I think she's a great little actress!

Each brings interesting storylines.  

Hope being alive puts Mack in an awkward position of being a single father with a dangerous job.  A job he has thought about quitting more then once.  This could be an emotional way for him to finally leave for good.  

Ward and DoctorFitz both provide interesting born vs bred questions.  Ward gives Daisy a complicated love interest as well as all the others dealing with their own feelings towards Old and New Ward.  And if they bring over both version of Fitz it will make for a lot of drama.

Although I like Trip and miss him.  He is the only one who doesn't have a ready made storyline so I don't really see him moving over.  Except if the show is getting rid of Mack (see above) and wants a POC character that fans already have an attachment to. 

Edited April 26, 2017 by Chaos Theory

[Proteus]

I can't see the show passing up Ward getting a real body.

[Traveller519]

Hope existing for real in the Real World doesn't seem like something Mack would actually want.

As much pain as it has for him, he seems to genuinely accept her being gone. His confession to Elena seemed to reveal as much. He also really distrusts things that aren't real, or of his world. He was all about taking down the LMD. He seems like the kind of noble-enough person who wouldn't placate the good feelings of having "Hope" in his life knowing that she wasn't real.

[HawaiiTVGuy]

17 hours ago, Jediknight said:

"My name is Phil Coulson, and I'm an agent of SHIELD."

Freaking awesome.  That was one of the best moments ever in this show.

It's amazing how much this framework arc is destroying every other superhero show.

My only thought was would Aida believe that this was a sign Coulson was getting his true memories back, and thus a direct threat to the Framework like she says Gemma and Daisy are, thus justifying their deaths.  And it was interesting to see how she can say she cannot directly harm humans, but she can get other players do it (like having Fitz give the orders to bomb the center to kill the Patriot).

Oh...and how come no more recaps?  No more recaps of Elementary, Agents of SHIELD and Prison Break?

Edited April 26, 2017 by HawaiiTVGuy

[MV007]

Bringing back Hope or Trip makes little sense unless you're looking for a one or two episode fall out.  I don't think Mack is going anywhere so sticking him with a kid just isn't going to happen.  If anybody on this show has a family it will stay off screen.  Otherwise the kid will be an albatross.  

As for Trip, I know the internet portion of the fandom seems to love him.  But I think he's pretty forgettable to any regular viewer of the show that is not obsessed online.  My 60+ yr old mother enjoys the show and if 2 months ago, I told her Trip was coming back, she would've said "Who?"  And if I then showed her a picture of Trip she would've said "Who?"

Meanwhile Ward coming back has far reaching ramifications for all of our characters and is well known to the entire audience.  And I don't even know if I think they're bringing Ward back.  Just that if they are going to bring someone from the framework he makes the most narrative sense imo.

Edited April 26, 2017 by MV007

[paigow]

Why would AIDA make a machine that could build a body for every character? It should be loaded only with the code for herself and Fitz.

[blackwing]

I am still hoping that Good Ward comes back.  He was great again in this episode.  He was willing to sacrifice himself to help Daisy and May get away.  I loved his hopeful "if you succeed, does this mean I get my Skye back".

I would be surprised if they brought Hope to the real world.  I think she's great and all, but what room is there for a kid on this show?  Unless they also brought back Mack's wife and have them mostly offscreen with occasional cameos.  If the mom isn't around, what role would there be for Hope?  Get tutored on the plane as it flies around the world?

[xqueenfrostine]

4 hours ago, paigow said:

Why would AIDA make a machine that could build a body for every character? It should be loaded only with the code for herself and Fitz.

 I don't think she is loading it with code to make bodies for any other character.  I think everyone's just assuming that such a machine could be made to make bodies for people other than Aida and EvilFitz if they knew how to use it.  Which is a safe bet, but I agree it that it seems unlikely that anyone else on the team except for the real Fitz would have the know how to operate such a machine.  And I can't see RealFitz just making a body for someone from the Framework without good reason, which is a big part of the reason why I'm not expecting FrameWard to make it in the real world.

[Terrafamilia]

Okay, when Daisy and May were at the Resistance Rendezvous Hideout the door the resistance guy used swung outward. The next scene in which they had drug his bullet riddled body inside the door swung inward.

It was a computer glitch! That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[AKA...CJ86]

I need Ward to come back. Of all the simulated characters, he's the only one that brings some interesting ramifications to go along with the other characters.

I'd love for Hope to make it, but that to me would be Mack's goodbye. I don't want that.  

I take it Aida's going to betray Ivanov. I'm also enjoying the Madame Hydra angle, if only it was something in the greater MCU and not the FrameWork.

[RobertDeSneero]

4 hours ago, blackwing said:

I would be surprised if they brought Hope to the real world.  I think she's great and all, but what room is there for a kid on this show?

So she can be killed off just when it hurts the most.

[rmontro]

I thought it was interesting when the woman saw Daisy and May on the street, gave them a look, and Daisy said "Maybe she's racist".  Chloe Bennett is half Asian, even though to my eyes I would never guess she wasn't fully Caucasian.  I supposed Daisy meant that the woman saw them both as Asian though.  Not that it matters, it just passed through my head.  Those two make a great team.

I was wondering if they were going to bring up the fracture problems since Quake doesn't have the gauntlets, but they didn't.

[LilJen]

This is what I thought of when AIDA said she wanted to be real.

[Mellowyellow]

That was so good! Again!!!!!

I liked Ward before we found it he was evil. Then he was batshit crazy and evil. Now they've brought him back and made him so upstanding in such a believable way my feelings are so messed up I don't know what to do with myself. 

I thought the actor was really good at portraying the nuances between the Wards. This one was good and a tad naive in a really sweet way.  I loved the way he asks Daisy if bad Ward got locked up and if he'll get his Skye back. It's the little things like that (and the fact that Victoria recruited him)which really sold him as a nice guy with a different path to the other Wards. I don't know how it'll work out but I hope he gets his Skye back in whatever virtual world remains. I'm pretty convinced they'll just destroy the framework though. I loved Daisy on that scene too.I thought she was very kind and considering how much she despised Bad Ward, I loved that she could be the bigger person and say something redeeming about him to comfort good Ward.

Haha I keep expecting Bobbi (or as I like to nickname her Superspy) and Hunter to burst in!

I may have teared up when Coulson said he was an Agent of Shield! I swear I'm not a crier! But this show!!!!!!

HydraFitz is so stone cold but yet such a lost little boy at times. RealFitz to me was always a gentle soul but really self assured. The actor is doing a great job!

[AngelKitty]

I don't want Ward to come back. He was just too bad and it would be too hard for everybody to deal with him, especially Skye and Simmons. Too many emotions and ensuing drama that might be interesting but not what I want to see in this show.

I wish they could bring back Mace. 

,

[frenchtoast]

2 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

That was so good! Again!!!!!

I liked Ward before we found it he was evil. Then he was batshit crazy and evil. Now they've brought him back and made him so upstanding in such a believable way my feelings are so messed up I don't know what to do with myself. 

I thought the actor was really good at portraying the nuances between the Wards. This one was good and a tad naive in a really sweet way.  I loved the way he asks Daisy if bad Ward got locked up and if he'll get his Skye back. It's the little things like that (and the fact that Victoria recruited him)which really sold him as a nice guy with a different path to the other Wards. I don't know how it'll work out but I hope he gets his Skye back in whatever virtual world remains. I'm pretty convinced they'll just destroy the framework though. I loved Daisy on that scene too.I thought she was very kind and considering how much she despised Bad Ward, I loved that she could be the bigger person and say something redeeming about him to comfort good Ward.

Haha I keep expecting Bobbi (or as I like to nickname her Superspy) and Hunter to burst in!

I may have teared up when Coulson said he was an Agent of Shield! I swear I'm not a crier! But this show!!!!!!

HydraFitz is so stone cold but yet such a lost little boy at times. RealFitz to me was always a gentle soul but really self assured. The actor is doing a great job!

I loved the conversation between Daisy and Ward. But I took it more as Daisy was able to reconcile her feelings about Real!Ward. It validated her (and everyone else's) initial trust and love for Ward. That goodness and trustworthiness were actually there--Aida/Framework didn't make it up. They weren't wrong or naive or gullible to see the goodness that they had seen in Ward. Here Ward's desire to help and protect and save others was channeled by someone "good", Victoria Hand rather than Garrett. It was always there. It was just corrupted by Garrett, and then burned away when he was rejected by (at the time) Skye. It's the whole change one thing, or Radcliffe's one sentence can change everything.

The betrayal is still there but tempered by knowing what was actually lost. And that they weren't foolish for seeing good in Ward or believing in him. So it took a weight off of Daisy, too. The feelings she had for Ward were justified by seeing the same good qualities in this Ward. And she can look back and feel a loss rather than anger and hurt.

This arc has just been so good. We couldn't have had this in the first season. We needed to get to know the characters better. But what a payoff it has been. 

[TVSpectator]

On 4/26/2017 at 8:55 PM, xqueenfrostine said:

 I don't think she is loading it with code to make bodies for any other character.  I think everyone's just assuming that such a machine could be made to make bodies for people other than Aida and EvilFitz if they knew how to use it.  Which is a safe bet, but I agree it that it seems unlikely that anyone else on the team except for the real Fitz would have the know how to operate such a machine.  And I can't see RealFitz just making a body for someone from the Framework without good reason, which is a big part of the reason why I'm not expecting FrameWard to make it in the real world.

 

 

I am really am hoping that they are building a body/gateway for Chthon to crossover into the real world and that he has taken the formed of Fitz's dad and all this time Fitz was being influenced by an actual demon. 

Edited April 28, 2017 by TVSpectator

[Tiger]

11 minutes ago, TVSpectator said:

I am really am hoping that they are building a body/gateway for Chthon to crossover into the real world and that he has taken the formed of Fitz's dad and all this time Fitz was being influenced by an actual demon. 

There are a few posters at Comic Book Resources that are speculating that Alistair Fitz is either The Darkhold itself, or some demon connected to it.

I defintely think we'll get more of The Darkhold, Hydra, Alistair or whoever or whatever be may really be, and Framework!Fitz, next season.  

[TVSpectator]

9 minutes ago, Tiger said:

There are a few posters at Comic Book Resources that are speculating that Alistair Fitz is either The Darkhold itself, or some demon connected to it.

I defintely think we'll get more of The Darkhold, Hydra, Alistair or whoever or whatever be may really be, and Framework!Fitz, next season.  

 

 

 

I do want there to be Chhthon showing up during this show's run now that they have the Darkhold. Someone or something has to know something about something/something since it was mentioned (really early on in this season) that Fury somehow knew that this book even existed but couldn't find it.  But maybe AoS screw it up and put Mephisto or even Dormammu as the "Demon of the Darkhold" instead of actually doing it proper source material justice? I mean after all they tied the Darkhold into Robbie's Ghost Rider origins story without even introducing Mephisto. And they made Robbie a full fledge Ghost Rider where in the comics he was just an honorary member who was possessed by his dead, and totally more evil and depraved than this show ever made him out to be, Satanic Uncle Eli

Also, I still place this show as a toss-up between renewal and cancellation. I mean this show has to be expensive to make since they are bringing in actors like Power Boothe, John Hannah, and David O'Hara and I doubt that John Hannah would do a Season + pro bono work- there has to be some kind of wage for that guy's work on this show, by now. Not to mentioned all the CGI work that needs to be done, etc...

Edited April 28, 2017 by TVSpectator

[rmontro]

16 hours ago, AngelKitty said:

I wish they could bring back Mace. ,

Yeah, it's kind of sad that his heroic death was merely saving some kids that weren't even real, but just blocks of data.

[Tiger]

13 hours ago, TVSpectator said:

I do want there to be Chhthon showing up during this show's run now that they have the Darkhold. Someone or something has to know something about something/something since it was mentioned (really early on in this season) that Fury somehow knew that this book even existed but couldn't find it.  But maybe AoS screw it up and put Mephisto or even Dormammu as the "Demon of the Darkhold" instead of actually doing it proper source material justice? I mean after all they tied the Darkhold into Robbie's Ghost Rider origins story without even introducing Mephisto. And they made Robbie a full fledge Ghost Rider where in the comics he was just an honorary member who was possessed by his dead, and totally more evil and depraved than this show ever made him out to be, Satanic Uncle Eli

Also, I still place this show as a toss-up between renewal and cancellation. I mean this show has to be expensive to make since they are bringing in actors like Power Boothe, John Hannah, and David O'Hara and I doubt that John Hannah would do a Season + pro bono work- there has to be some kind of wage for that guy's work on this show, by now. Not to mentioned all the CGI work that needs to be done, etc...

I wouldnt be surprised if they did use a minor character like that as IIRC, Mephisto, Dormammu, the N'Gari, and the other more well-known demonic characters were all on that list of characters that were included in the Spiderman, FF, and X packages that Sony and Fox bought years ago.

[TVSpectator]

8 hours ago, Tiger said:

I wouldnt be surprised if they did use a minor character like that as IIRC, Mephisto, Dormammu, the N'Gari, and the other more well-known demonic characters were all on that list of characters that were included in the Spiderman, FF, and X packages that Sony and Fox bought years ago.

 

 

1

Marvel does have the rights to Mephisto since the rights to Ghost Rider reverted back to them either a year ago and/or a few years ago. You see, it was reported that when they sold the rights to Ghost Rider that also included Mephisto, as part of a package, since he was the major character in those comics and also he was the comic reason why Johnny Blaze received the Spirit of Vengence (and also the only reason why there were any ghost riders. Mephisto was the one who started that ball rolling in the comics). The summary of that original story is basically Johnny, who is actually a stunt man/carnival daredevil, makes a deal with Mephisto (he also was known by the name the "devil" but he isn't the only demon and there is a demon called, "Lucifer" and also one called, "Satan" but for the basic idea is that he is the devil but his name isn't "Satan" or "Lucifer" and also his "realm"- since realm is another word for dimension in the comics- is basically what  Hell has been traditionally portrayed as...) to save his step-dad  from cancer. Johnny would become Mephisto's "ghost rider" while his step-dad cancer will go away. Everything is fine until his step-dad (who is now cancer free) dies soon after in a freak accident in one of his stunt shows.

Dormammu clearly is owned by Marvel since he was in Dr. Strange and was the primary boss villain in that film. 

As with the N'Gari I really don't know who owns them. Maybe FOX owns them because they are kind of tied to the X-Men (in a way) but they are also tied to  Chthon, since he kind of created that race of demons to served him. And if they do own the rights to the N'Gari maybe Fitz's dad can really be Kierrok, the leader of the N'Gari instead of Chthon?

 

19 hours ago, rmontro said:

Yeah, it's kind of sad that his heroic death was merely saving some kids that weren't even real, but just blocks of data.

I wish that they would bring Mace back and just have him be fully resurrected or just use the Darkhold to turn time back to avoid all of this mess (and the Darkhold can literally do this, btw) but I have a feeling that it probably won't happen and instead have to deal with some form of Ward if there is a next season. Which is really what I don't want to happen but since the showrunners do like the actor we will probably get more Ward next season, if there is a next season. 

Also, yes, it is sad that he died saving kids that are just literally 1s and 0s. If this was an actual another universe then I guess his death would be more meaningful but currently it is a really shitty way to go if this is just solely a simulation. because he will literally have died in vein. Then again, this, in my opinion, seems like a typical AoS thing to do. Kill off either a cool character, a character with lots of potential to make the story interesting, or just a really good character for that "extra" sad moment. And instead, we are left with a bunch of characters that I just don't find to be really interested in and/or invested in since they have all gone down a somewhat predictable path- they all end up hooking up with each other and they all seem kind of like assholes- especially during this season.  Even reintroducing old characters like Trip and hell even Ward, is sad to see since they are reminders that this show can produce actual interesting/good original characters to watch, that this show has decided to get ride of. Now, we just have to have Andrew/Lash to show up and there will be the trifecta of, "why did the show kill off these characters in the first place?"

Edited April 29, 2017 by TVSpectator
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