S04.E19: All The Madame's Men

[TVSpectator]

1 hour ago, hello said:

It was all of them, but mostly May - not Coulson. In the real world May killed the girl in Bahrain who was turning adults into murder-bots. In the Framework she brought the child to the US and they tried to give her a normal life in Boston but the kid went on a destruction spree instead, which HYDRA used to spread enough anti-Inhuman propaganda to sweep into power.

Even with that Bahrain girl doing the attack that doesn't explain where Director Fury (along with Tony Stark/Iron Man, Iron Patriot, Black Widow, Hawkeye, etc.....) was so complicit to allow Hydra to rule over- in public- without even trying to put up a fight and/or be the leaders of a rebellion/resistance. In my opinion, it probably would've been better if they had Hydra won during WWII. At least that (in my mind) would be more plasubiable than just something that happens within 10 years. 

[Lobsel Vith]

2 hours ago, TVSpectator said:

Even with that Bahrain girl doing the attack that doesn't explain where Director Fury (along with Tony Stark/Iron Man, Iron Patriot, Black Widow, Hawkeye, etc.....) was so complicit to allow Hydra to rule over- in public- without even trying to put up a fight and/or be the leaders of a rebellion/resistance. In my opinion, it probably would've been better if they had Hydra won during WWII. At least that (in my mind) would be more plasubiable than just something that happens within 10 years. 

Admittedly, the storyline has those moments that are geared to elicit a particular reaction from the viewer and aren't necessarily framed as something that would logically occur within the context of this sequence of events - like Ward being good is pretty much for the Ward fans (rather than something the writers genuinely felt would be a consequence of the specific 'rectons' of this historical timeline), and Ward being with Skye is for the SkyWard fans (and given Skye's personality in the Pilot episode is unlikely to have occurred even within this Hydra-led timeline, but we're not really supposed to think about that).

Edited September 16, 2017 by Lobsel Vith

[TVSpectator]

15 hours ago, Lobsel Vith said:

Admittedly, the storyline has those moments that are geared to elicit a particular reaction from the viewer and aren't necessarily framed as something that would logically occur within the context of this sequence of events - like Ward being good is pretty much for the Ward fans (rather than something the writers genuinely felt would be a consequence of the specific 'rectons' of this historical timeline), and Ward being with Skye is for the SkyWard fans (and given Skye's personality in the Pilot episode is unlikely to have occurred even within this Hydra-led timeline, but we're not really supposed to think about that).

Yeah, but this show is supposedly also taking place within (assuming by most people) the same universe that the movies are taking place. Plus, they were always telling us that the simulation is a 100% copy of THEIR universe. Which then just leads down the eventual rabbit hole of- where is Director Fury, Black Widow, Hawkeye when Hydra revealed themselves (and I am going to leave out Peggy Carter because of she, by that supposed date, was in a nursing home suffering from Alzheimer's  disease), etc....? I mean yeah, they did have a resistance but Mace was supposed to be the grand leader (and not Fury) and I would've just accepted an "I am just a leader of a cell. Director Fury is the leader for everyone.....) kind of deal or even something like, "oh, this is just a very detail simulation but it's not supposed to be a 100% copy. Just a hypothetical world).

 

Overall, in my opinion, it just seems that they just want us to assume that Coulson is a really big fucking deal and so is his team. Even though in Season 1 they established that they weren't. And even today, they aren't that big of a deal within the larger MCU picture. Well, okay, Coulson was kind of a big deal, before his actual death in The Avengers, but not in the way that the show now wants us to believe in him but the others were either just out of the academy and/or misfits of some kind.

 

IN my opinion, it all just boils down to the idea that the show is leading us to believe that this bunch is so special and that without them (or just part of them) then the world would be totally screwed. You don't see the Netflix shows really doing that but this show loves to do it. 

[Lobsel Vith]

1 hour ago, TVSpectator said:

Yeah, but this show is supposedly also taking place within (assuming by most people) the same universe that the movies are taking place. Plus, they were always telling us that the simulation is a 100% copy of THEIR universe. Which then just leads down the eventual rabbit hole of- where is Director Fury, Black Widow, Hawkeye when Hydra revealed themselves (and I am going to leave out Peggy Carter because of she, by that supposed date, was in a nursing home suffering from Alzheimer's  disease), etc....? I mean yeah, they did have a resistance but Mace was supposed to be the grand leader (and not Fury) and I would've just accepted an "I am just a leader of a cell. Director Fury is the leader for everyone.....) kind of deal or even something like, "oh, this is just a very detail simulation but it's not supposed to be a 100% copy. Just a hypothetical world).

It could be an issue of not wanting to take time to explain where the movie characters are (given some of the criticism about the films ignoring AoS).

I mean, I get the divergence regarding the Inhuman child being something that could have been a catalyst for Hydra making a move to take power (which I think is plausible enough in and of itself), but I'd say some of the pieces would have fit better if Ada simply said that she took advantage of her 'knowledge' of the MCU to make changes and remove certain obstacles (like Fury, Captain America, Iron Man, ect.) to explain how Hydra came to power, rather than claiming that the Framework was pretty much what would have really happened.

1 hour ago, TVSpectator said:

Overall, in my opinion, it just seems that they just want us to assume that Coulson is a really big fucking deal and so is his team. Even though in Season 1 they established that they weren't. And even today, they aren't that big of a deal within the larger MCU picture. Well, okay, Coulson was kind of a big deal, before his actual death in The Avengers, but not in the way that the show now wants us to believe in him but the others were either just out of the academy and/or misfits of some kind.

You could certainly question the roles some of the characters play in the Framework. Why would Skye join Hydra in the Framework, particularly when you consider her personality in the Pilot and Season One (where she is opposed to authority, and only starts to really change once she realizes the role S.H.I.E.L.D. played in her upbringing, which wouldn't be the case with Hydra)? How plausible is it that Ward (of all people) would have encountered her? If Ward is "good" (and assuming Skye is loyal to Hydra), why isn't he concerned that the Framework version of Skye wouldn't oppose him once she discovered that he was working for the resistance (similar to Skye and Ward in the 'real world' when she discovers that he's really with Hydra)?

And why is Fitz working on genetic experiments on Inhumans and making an organic body when his field is more mechanical, and his work as 'The Doctor' heavily involves genetics (which I would think Simmons would be the more appropriate person to fill this role since it's more her area of expertise)? He's also showcased as a Stark level genius (given the device he's constructing) which makes it a bit odd that he was part of Coulson's team rather than running his own science division at S.H.I.E.L.D. (although this isn't really a new issue - I simply find it more obvious given his role in this storyline).

Things like this suggest that some of the worldbuilding of the Framework wasn't really focused on too closely (with respect to how the consequences of certain actions would have really played out), so I don't really think there's a real answer as to why the MCU superheroes aren't present.

[TVSpectator]

25 minutes ago, Lobsel Vith said:

It could be an issue of not wanting to take time to explain where the movie characters are (given some of the criticism about the films ignoring AoS).

I mean, I get the divergence regarding the Inhuman child being something that could have been a catalyst for Hydra making a move to take power (which I think is plausible enough in and of itself), but I'd say some of the pieces would have fit better if Ada simply said that she took advantage of her 'knowledge' of the MCU to make changes and remove certain obstacles (like Fury, Captain America, Iron Man, ect.) to explain how Hydra came to power, rather than claiming that the Framework was pretty much what would have really happened.

You could certainly question the roles some of the characters play in the Framework. Why would Skye join Hydra in the Framework, particularly when you consider her personality in the Pilot and Season One (where she is opposed to authority, and only starts to really change once she realizes the role S.H.I.E.L.D. played in her upbringing, which wouldn't be the case with Hydra)? How plausible is it that Ward (of all people) would have encountered her? If Ward is "good" (and assuming Skye is loyal to Hydra), why isn't he concerned that the Framework version of Skye wouldn't oppose him once she discovered that he was working for the resistance (similar to Skye and Ward in the 'real world' when she discovers that he's really with Hydra)?

And why is Fitz working on genetic experiments on Inhumans and making an organic body when his field is more mechanical, and his work as 'The Doctor' heavily involves genetics (which I would think Simmons would be the more appropriate person to fill this role since it's more her area of expertise)? He's also showcased as a Stark level genius (given the device he's constructing) which makes it a bit odd that he was part of Coulson's team rather than running his own science division at S.H.I.E.L.D. (although this isn't really a new issue - I simply find it more obvious given his role in this storyline).

Things like this suggest that some of the worldbuilding of the Framework wasn't really focused on too closely (with respect to how the consequences of certain actions would have really played out), so I don't really think there's a real answer as to why the MCU superheroes aren't present.

YYMV but that is the vibe that I feel when watching this show now. In the earlier seasons they had no problems depicting a characters like Fitz as someone that would totally fail to be in the filed (and also needing backup) but there was never a "trial by fire" type of situation that was ever shown, at least on screen, of  him "improving" his field work. They kind of did it with Simmons when she was left on that planet but none for Fitz that I can remember. I do remember the Hub but Ward basically was his babysitter from that episode (and honestly how stupid can you be to eat a sandwich in a drain pipe while dogs are literally trying to pick up your sent?) and pretty much saved his life (at least this is what I remember). But it seems that the show just wants it both ways, and it's just really being noticeable for me. Like this Framework situation. WE were told one thing but in the large picture, it relies on a lot of assumptions. Like that people are totally fine with, the Nazi's old Science branch running the nation. Which honestly doesn't make a lot of sense because that world was supposedly based on the world where Hydra (the old Nazi science branch) runs the country in public. This is supposedly the world where Captain America defeated Hydra and, according to Agent Carter (and the movies, btw) Hydra is well known as a Nazi group. That part was supposedly the same as the one where they came from but people like May, Daisy/Skye, and Fitz are totally fine if not utterly loyal to Hydra. Not to mention a world that is supposedly made out of the same characters from the main MCU universe (i.e. Captain America, Fury, Black Widow, Falcon, Iron Patriot, Tony Stark, Hawkeye, etc....)

Edited September 17, 2017 by TVSpectator