S01.E07: You Get What You Need

[dmc]

1 hour ago, shelley1234 said:

Maybe, but it still doesn't ring true to me.   Abusers often say they are out of control, however their abuse is usually nothing if not controlled.  The abusers often behave in public in such a manner that no one would know what was going on at home.  The idea that Perry would beat his wife in front of her friends and everyone.   Sure, it's good tv....but I just can't swallow it from what I know of abusers.  

Not always true.  Usually abusers have a certain amount of control...but I have seen the opposite first hand.  I don't know what shifts to provoke the other but it happens. 

[madam magpie]

30 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Even before her later years as a UNICEF ambassador, she was totally badass! During World War II, she performed in secret dance shows to raise money for the resistance (while subsisting on dug up tulip bulbs to make flour for bread).

Really?! That's awesome! I didn't know that.

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Cardie said:

The reason for the cover-up was that it was not an accident. The editing was very chaotic but my reading of Bonnie's movements and expression was that she was not just helping get Perry off Celeste but intended to push him over. When she first started following him, I thought, "Why all the confusion, there's going to be an objective witness to whatever goes down?" But the objective witness is the killer.

I'm not saying that any jury would convict Bonnie under the circumstances but I can see why the detective was not buying the "accident" scenario.

I know she pushed him over purposely but I don't think she meant to kill or even maim him, just end the violence.  But I couldn't watch it without book Bonnie in my head, either.  

I didn't really understand why the cop didn't believe he fell over.  How could she know he was pushed?  That was probably the most WTF part of the story for me-- that the cops wanted blood over this when it was clearly not really something someone should be locked up for.

5 hours ago, chocolatine said:

Great episode which would have been even better with less singing and fewer loaded looks between Maddie/Joseph/Joseph's wife. I knew that, unless the show completely changed the ending of the book, Celeste wasn't going to die, but I felt so scared for her the whole episode, even when she was in the apartment - the moment she was closing the refrigerator door, I thought Perry would appear behind it.

I thought it was inappropriate of Maddie to reveal her affair to Abigail last week (and to keep talking to her about it this week), and even worse that she told Jane. At this rate the whole town will know before Ed (I know he already suspects, but she's never explicitly told him); how humiliating for him. If she's not going to tell him, she shouldn't tell anyone. The whole affair storyline makes her look like a hypocrite with respect to her continued anger at Nathan.

A small detail that I found amusing was when Perry and Gordon walked into the fundraiser together (after Celeste and Renata walked in ahead of them), a bunch of women were immediately all over Perry, and only when he excused himself did they even notice that Gordon was there as well.

I'm in the camp that thinks Ed knows.  I think he knew she cheated in the scene where he stopped her from confessing.  I assume it was like the 'why don't you want sex' talk-- some things are better left unsaid so the people can go on pretending.  And then I think all the weird looks at the party were him figuring out the 'who' part.

4 hours ago, CofCinci said:

Guess Celeste never had to finish putting that IKEA together.  

That was when I felt for her most, ha.  But I also didn't think Ikea was realistic.  They don't deliver or assemble.  Real Celeste would have her furniture delivered and assembled.  But I liked that they did it because I sympathized and I think a lot of people would.  

15 minutes ago, pbutler111 said:

I thought it was clear that Perry recognized Jane. Not at first -- he was too focused on Celeste -- but you could see the realization on his face the moment he recognized her. I thought is reaction of going after Celeste in that moment was a buildup of his feeling of a loss of control over her and their entire situation, but was triggered by his recognition of Jane and mistaken thought that Celeste had brought all these women together against him.

I read that scene as Perry recognizing Jane.  Which I didn't love.  See book thread.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

9 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

40 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Even before her later years as a UNICEF ambassador, she was totally badass! During World War II, she performed in secret dance shows to raise money for the resistance (while subsisting on dug up tulip bulbs to make flour for bread).

Really?! That's awesome! I didn't know that.

She first mentioned it during her screen test for Roman Holiday:

 

5 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I also didn't think Ikea was realistic.  They don't deliver or assemble.

Ikea delivers.

[Llywela]

3 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

That was when I felt for her most, ha.  But I also didn't think Ikea was realistic.  They don't deliver or assemble.  Real Celeste would have her furniture delivered and assembled.  But I liked that they did it because I sympathized and I think a lot of people would. 

Ikea does deliver - at least, they do in the UK. They don't assemble, though, no, and Celeste can certainly afford to get the furniture assembled for her. I guess it was a creative choice made to underline the point that she was attempting to build a whole new life for herself and the boys, piece by painstaking piece, from the ground up.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

1 minute ago, Llywela said:

Ikea does deliver - at least, they do in the UK. They don't assemble, though

Ikea will assemble your furniture if you are in the United States.

[Llywela]

1 minute ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Ikea will assemble your furniture if you are in the United States.

Well, damn, I've missed out there! All those painstaking hours twiddling allen keys...

[ElectricBoogaloo]

2 minutes ago, Llywela said:

Well, damn, I've missed out there! All those painstaking hours twiddling allen keys...

The UK website says that although Ikea doesn't assemble furniture, they have "independent partners" who will do it for you! Stop twiddling those Allen wrenches!

[AttackTurtle]

I think Perry acted out in public because he was losing control.  Plus he was drinking.  The moment Celeste refused to leave with him in front of her friends, the jig was up & he knew it.  But honestly I can't see a criminal conviction given that he lashed out violently at all of the woman.

The fact that all of the ladies first instincts were to step in and physically put themselves in harms way for their friend was pretty frickin awesome.  

My six year old sings "The Wonder of You" all the time (his father's influence) and Adam Scott did it justice.

I loved that so much communication was conveyed between the characters without words; particularly b/t Madeline and her ex.  

All of the people involved in this series should be really proud, but again Nicole Kidman just knocked it out of the park.  

[zumpie]

IDK. I called it awhile ago with Perry as Jane's assailant and then it was all pretty neat and pat that the "murder victim" (really defending someone else/involuntary manslaughter on Bonnie's part, too) would be the person who DID have it coming. TBH, hardly any wild twists here

(other than Bonnie racing in with the coup de grace)

[jeansheridan]

Nicole Kidman never played Celeste like a Princess either, afraid to get her hands dirty.  Even on the show I never had the feeling that it was the house, nanny, and income keeping her there.  

Now Maddie who had struggled once should be having second thoughts about losing her security.   And I did like that Joseph called her rich.  She IS rich.  And presumably Ed helped do that for her.  And kudos to him for never pulling that card in their fights.

[hoodooznoodooz]

I agree that Celeste would have had to dip her body in concealer in order to wear that Holly Golightly dress after the beating she had suffered so recently.

Loved Tom's reaction when Jane told him that she thought he was gay.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Llywela said:

Ikea does deliver - at least, they do in the UK. They don't assemble, though, no, and Celeste can certainly afford to get the furniture assembled for her. I guess it was a creative choice made to underline the point that she was attempting to build a whole new life for herself and the boys, piece by painstaking piece, from the ground up.

Good to know!   They didn't always.  I did like it as a metaphor.  And building that stuff takes hours.  As soon as I saw the bunk beds, I thought 'I wonder who assembled those for her' because they did look like Ikea or other inexpensive, BIY furniture.  

[CofCinci]

Celeste needed to put the IKEA together herself to improve her confidence.  She spent $$$$ just for her mediation meeting suit with Mayor and could have easily dropped $$$$ on furniture.  While she has resources, she doesn't have the confidence within herself to leave Perry.  That bookshelf or table brings her one step closer to recognizing her strength and competence.  If Bonnie didn't kill Perry, Celeste would most likely stayed with her husband. Maybe she would have left to the apartment but he would go through the motions -- disingenuously -- to get her back. Look honey, I'm at therapy. Look honey, I'm sorry. Look honey, I miss the boys. Look honey, I'm taking more time off from work for the family. Then, the moment she returned, he'd go right back to the abuse. It's an endless cycle for some. 

[Uncle JUICE]

Please tell me that wasn't Adam Scott's actual singing. That voice was just...well I haven't heard one as incongruous since the Zack Attack. 

[Llywela]

1 minute ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

Good to know!   They didn't always.  I did like it as a metaphor.  And building that stuff takes hours.  As soon as I saw the bunk beds, I thought 'I wonder who assembled those for her' because they did look like Ikea or other inexpensive, BIY furniture.  

I suppose Ikea was also an easy solution for getting the apartment furnished as quickly as possible, which would be the priority. She'd be hoping to have time and leisure to decorate and furnish more to her taste later, but for now, she just needed to get the basics in place ready to run. Ikea would be perfect for that - no waiting. And I agree with CofCinci, building the furniture herself was symbolic of the new life she needed to build for herself and the boys, proving to herself with each and every piece that she could do this.

It would have taken ages, though - and some of the bigger pieces really, really need two people to construct safely!

[Guest]

The two actual singers for the men in that scene are listed upthread. 

[Atlanta]

5 hours ago, acid burn said:

On a totally shallow note, my Best Dressed Awards go to Renata, Bonnie, and Maddie. (I'm biased about the latter because I'm about RW's size physically and and a man's tux shirt would fit me like a minidress, plus be comfortable and more original than the Breakfast at Tiffany's dresses and tiaras most everyone else was sure to rock.)

I'm also about Reese's size so I totally relate. :) Her and Zoe are little pocket Venuses.

[pbutler111]

48 minutes ago, Mindthinkr said:

I'm glad that you have those safeguards on your phone. I don't think for a minute that Perry would have allowed Celeste to have that type of privacy. Abusers can also be control freaks and limit the access of their victims. 

That's why I find it a bit hard to believe that her seasoned therapist who knows enough to tell her to rent and apartment and stock the fridge didn't think to mention that she should also get a second phone that Perry doesn't know about to use for all these arrangements.

[humbleopinion]

Guess the fans of BLL could let it go if there were other strong shows coming down the HBO pipeline.

Even GoT can't make us feel better about saying goodbye to BLL.

[Cookie1981]

My take on the final Jane/Celeste/Perry showdown (I did read the book ages ago but I'm only speculating based on what the show gave us) I don't necessarily think every business trip was an excuse for him to be picking up women and raping them (not to give this monster any benefit of the doubt). The timing of Jane's rape coinciding with Celeste possibly being pregnant with the twins or in the delicate limbo of IVF treatments (which may have made him feel emasculated) makes me wonder if he was acting out his aggression on a stranger because he didn't want to take it out on his pregnant wife and it was an isolated incident (or one of few) and that's why he recognized her. The expression on his face registered as recognition to me and that's when he seemed to realize it was OVER for him and he just went berserk with nothing left to lose. ASkars was chilling in this role, his physicality was so imposing and the way he stalked around the party looking for his prey was terrifying. I got such Eric Northman vibes when he came out in just the leather pants and white tank top and had to remind myself he was Perry and not my favorite Viking Vamp. 

Everything great I think about Nicole Kidman has already been said but really this entire cast of women has just been thrilling to watch. I have loved Reese since Man in (on?) the Moon and to see her in her 40s producing and starring in content like this is wonderful. Laura Dern was perfection as Renata, and Shailene really shone for me in her moments with Ziggy and realizing Perry was her rapist. Zoe Kravitz has always come off as a little too subdued in other things but was perfect in this and you could see her mind working behind her eyes as she watched them and sprung into action. I had tears in my eyes as I watched her. 

Yes, Perry being the big bad was a huge coincidence and is kind of whatever but it played a little better in the book to me. I think Jane would have jumped in to defend Celeste regardless and they could have bonded over the fathers of their children having violent inclinations without the Perry coincidence, but it's a show/book so I will allow it. In real life it would be too much to take in. 

Edited to add, I would watch these women do an anthology style show a la the Ryan Murphy shows just to see them all act together again. 

Edited April 3, 2017 by Cookie1981
More thoughts in my brain with coffee

[aemom]

I think that it's very possible that Perry did not recognize Jane so many years later and I suspect that Jane is not the only woman he raped on all of his business trips.  However I think that he either did recognize her, or when he saw the horrified faces of Jane, Madeline, and Celeste that he realized that she was probably one of his conquests.  At that moment, he completely lost his shit.  After hearing Celeste telling him that she was leaving him and then all of the women looking at him like the monster he is, that he just snapped with the belief that if he couldn't have Celeste, nobody else would and was going to kill her.

Perry is a big guy, but he was definitely off balance fighting off the women and beating Celeste.  I could easily see very muscular Bonnie unexpectedly slamming into Perry full tilt to be enough to send him down the stairs.

For those that are disappointed that we all saw the ending coming, well perhaps we have watched too many episodes of 24 and other similar shows where there is one crazy plot twist after another.  Sometimes the obvious is really all there is and what makes sense.  The only real twist was that it was Bonnie of all people who sent him down the stairs.

I'm also glad that Madeline didn't tell Ed about her affair.  All that would have done is hurt him terribly and make her feel better.  Frankly, I think that she needs to live with her guilt.  That's the price you pay for cheating.

[madam magpie]

37 minutes ago, pbutler111 said:

That's why I find it a bit hard to believe that her seasoned therapist who knows enough to tell her to rent and apartment and stock the fridge didn't think to mention that she should also get a second phone that Perry doesn't know about to use for all these arrangements.

This was a teensy detail that bugged me too. I have a friend who left an abusive boyfriend, and we spent at least a month planning it ahead of time. She got an apartment, opened a new bank account, we moved stuff little by little, and she got a second, secret cell phone that she used for all of the arrangements. As soon as she moved out, she cancelled the first phone and only kept the secret one. I thought for sure that's what Celeste was doing with the property manager and felt like it was a sloppy detail for her to use her own phone. Especially since (I think?) at the party she borrows a phone to call the babysitter to have her move the kids. Did I miss Perry taking her phone in the car?

Edited April 3, 2017 by madam magpie

[Irlandesa]

6 hours ago, mochamajesty said:

So abusers cannot also be rapists? Abusing your wife makes you the biggest villian. And abuse abd rape are both about control. Not that big of a leap.

Naming Perry as the rapist doesn't erase the rest of Perry's violent acts. I am not seeing this "logic" at all. Sometimes people are evil.

Name someone else who makes sense in the final episode. Everything that we were shown led up to this. Not sure why folks are complaining now.

I didn't say that abusers couldn't be rapists.  I said that making Perry the abuser and the rapist of some stranger his wife just met turned him into an almost mythical "big bad."  To me, it feels a bit less grounded. Not totally ungrounded.  Just less grounded that all these random coincidences would happen.

But yes, if we had to learn who Jane's rapist was, and I argue that it would have been okay for us to never find out who he is, Perry was the most likely suspect. 

Edited April 3, 2017 by Irlandesa

[DarkRaichu]

1 hour ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

ITA that Perry just lost control. Normally the face he presented to everyone else was the charming guy and loving husband, but when Celeste refused to leave with him and Renata said, "I think she just needs a minute" (in a very non-confrontational manner, I might add - she had no idea what was going on between them and was just trying to ease the tension), he snapped at Renata, something he would normally NEVER do. Perry was already afraid that Celeste had told Renata about the abuse when he saw them talking earlier at the party (which was really Celeste telling Renata that she knew Max was the one who had abused Amabella) so I would guess that when he saw Celeste with her best friend Madeline, their new friend Jane, and Renata who he knew she had spoken to earlier, he jumped to the conclusion that she had told all of them - especially when he saw Jane, Madeline, and Celeste all frantically looking at each other - and just completely lost all control.

Yes. Perry was an arrogant prick.  Even after he heard the message from the property manager he thought he could still talked Celeste to stay.  
However, in the parked car Perry went through list of excuses he used in the past, ie: we have family, lets go to therapist again, he even punched his chest while admitting to his problem.  None of them worked.  By this time he had to figure out that he did not have as much control over Celeste as he used to.
Celeste was lucky Renata tapped on his window.

Small observation: Horizon Organic milk must be a sponsor as there were TWO cartons in the fridge of Celeste's apartment :D

[Suck It Trebek]

The scene where Ed and Madeline were walking up the red carpet, tense and unconnected, was very well done. They were going through the motions because they had to, but knew there was a rift that was only growing larger.  Everyone around them was laughing and having fun, while they just walked together, but apart. Same thing when they were standing at the cocktail table, watching everything and everyone. No emotional connection, no shared amusement of any of the possible antics of those around them. Well acted by both Adam and Reese and well directed.

[QuinnM]

So much insight!  I'll go shallow.

Did we have to film AS in the dark?  The man is in tight black leather!  You people are just plain mean.

Celeste, Celeste, Celeste, did you put sheets out of the bag on the beds? No prewash?  How much damage has this man done to your brain?

[ElectricBoogaloo]

2 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

Horizon Organic milk must be a sponsor as there were TWO cartons in the fridge of Celeste's apartment :D

Haha, I think it was just the show saying that she has two kids so they go through a lot of milk and the Monterey ladies MUST buy organic milk! Someone brought up the Horizon milk in the episode thread where Nathan passive aggressively ate that sugary cereal and pointed out that the brand is a little problematic but I chalk that up to the rich wives dutifully buying the organic stuff without really researching the companies. 

[Keepitmoving]

12 hours ago, Bunbun77 said:

turned him into an almost mythical "big bad."  To me, it feels a bit less grounded. 

I think that mythical feel was exactly what Kelly was trying to put out. At least that's the feeling I got watching the advertisements on HBO before the show started. There was that little bit of a mythical, mysterious feel to it and it wasn't just supposed to come off as a realistic story on domestic violence IMO. I don't know anything about the book but Kelly IMO made the film not for the sole purpose of sending a message on domestic violence, it came off as a mystery and convenient in how all these pieces tied together.  As in, what are the odds that a woman moves to a town, and befriends the wife of her rapist?  Well, the odds are pretty good when the movie has mythical/mysterious feel to it and that's it's objective. Trying to portray domestic violence as realistically as possible was the bonus story line, not the main one IMO.

I was definitely sure that Jane and Celeste fit together, they share a connection with the how their scenes were shown at the same time. Celeste running out of the therapist office after the therapist tells her she needs to make plans to leave, then flashing back to Jane running out of who she thought was her rapist's office in her car screaming. The scenes were shown back to back and then I knew it was Perry. I actually  knew it was him when Jane was following the decorator from the back and imagining him in the suit he wore that night and immediately I thought he looks like Perry from the back.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Keepitmoving said:

I think that mythical feel was exactly what Kelly was trying to put out.

They said in interviews they wanted viewers to have a little sympathy for Perry and see his humanity.  See excerpt below.  So I feel like they kind of failed on both fronts.  He did feel more like a comic book villain to me than a real person with shades of gray.  I assume they were going for 'not too gritty' since we see him impaled and there is the comedic edge to the show.  But they also seem to want the domestic violence part to feel raw and real.  I'm not sure the mix worked that well for me.  It would be like if Desperate Housewives threw in a Burning Bed plot.  

Quote

“The intention was to see how complex it is: to show how people lie about it, what it feels to go through it, and how painful it can be for the woman, who is the victim in this case,” Big Little Lies director Jean-Marc Vallée said. “But [writer David E. Kelley] and I and all of our partners thought, Well, what if we try to care for this guy too? He is the perpetrator of the violence, but he is aware of it and sincerely wants to get rid of his demons. That’s why I think you wonder and go, My God, I see. I see. There’s a little spark of hope here and there. I wanted to try to touch people’s hearts.”

http://www.vulture.com/2017/03/big-little-liess-domestic-violence-storyline-explained.html

[Paws]

I absolutely loved Laura Derns  character.  She saved Celeste twice....first by knocking on the window and then defending her during the fight.  Her character was shown as a bit if a ball buster, workwise, and it paid off.

I also like how the male characters were given depth and shading as  well. Gordon was a douche, Nathan was a bigger douche but their worst personality traits are pretty common among rich guys and fairly harmless, especially when compared to the likes of Perry. Gordon and Nathan were also shown doing ok in  their dad roles...not perfectly, but the way you'd expect a dad to behave. For instance Nathan taking away the computer and getting angry at Abigail....not great parenting, but what most dads would do. 

Edited April 3, 2017 by Paws

[stillshimpy]

50 minutes ago, AEMom said:

Perry is a big guy, but he was definitely off balance fighting off the women and beating Celeste.  I could easily see very muscular Bonnie unexpectedly slamming into Perry full tilt to be enough to send him down the stairs.

 

 

 

One of the neat things the series did was to emphasize the relative size of the actors' .  There had been a shot of Bonnie picking up Skye that really emphasizes that Zoe Kravitz is practically the size of a shoe.  A petite shoe.   When they showed Perry striding down that carpet, in search of Celeste, he looked like Maleficent about to turn into a dragon. Then the use the emphasis of size started to click for me when Bonnie started following after him, just looking like a speck of a human being that it finally dawned on me that one of them was going to die.  I was so afraid it was going to be Bonnie but she's so little, if she plowed into Perry, she'd essentially hit him directly in his center of gravity.   

I think the reason they had to lie was that at least the way the show was playing it, Celeste would have been given "12 months probation"  (there are points at which you can tell this story was originally set in Australia)  even if she'd been simply defending herself.  Bonnie couldn't even lay claim to that, she ran into the fray and cleaned his clock entirely.   She wasn't in immediate peril, and the way the rest of the story was pretending it would go down (rather than justifiable, involuntary manslaughter with zero criminal charges for Celeste) that we're supposed to believe Bonnie would have been charged with manslaughter.  

I loved the resolution simply because it brought everyone together, Renata was revealed to be decent at the heart of all things and I practically cheered her accidentally saving Celeste's life in the first place by knocking on the window.  I liked that Renata was essentially pining for actual friendship and simply terrible at creating it.  

On another note, I actually hope there isn't another season.   I loved that they were all together at the end and the person who had been excluded throughout literally struck a blow for the sisterhood and was included.  

 

I was not expecting such a poetic ending but I loved it.  I do wish it had simply ended with a shot of the detective in some way indicating that she going to simply drop the matter.    Since the therapist so complete heaved off any kind of professional restraints (she was actually the character I assumed had a background with abuse) I wanted the detective to also simply recognize that there was already justice in the situation.   Bonnie killed Perry to help save everyone else, it was hardly some premeditated nastiness and I doubt Jane was Perry's only victim so it seems like any digging into his background might reveal that the world was better off without Perry anyway.  

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

They said in interviews they wanted viewers to have a little sympathy for Perry and see his humanity.  See excerpt below.  So I feel like they kind of failed on both fronts.

Yeah, I read this in the interview, and they did accomplish this somewhat IMO, during the therapy session that he attended when he was actually the one who admitted first to the therapist that his interaction with his wife got physical. Celeste at first wasn't trying to admit to that, but he did, so he was at least trying to come off as if he was being honest and not denying that he/they had a problem.  At that point, I was like maybe he can be redeemed, but that was before I put it together that he was also a rapist.  But ultimately, like I said, I think their first priority was to go with the mythical/mystery feel to the series so sympathetic Perry was sacrificed in favor of that. He was supposed to be the big bad wolf in the end, but they also wanted you to get that he was sick, they even had the therapist use the word sick to describe him. Sick to me is a sympathetic word. I was finally like, there is no hope for him and he needs to be put down like a rabid animal, sad.  But if Jane's rapist is some random guy who has no connection to any of the bonds she's formed in her new town then, who cares? I wouldn't, and I always thought that the mystery of it all, took precedence over the domestic story line. Or, the domestic story line was needed to support the overall mystery, it was just more details that would support this guy, Perry, as being believable as a rapist, like he's really fucked up.  Oh, and  ironically, conveniently whatever word you want to use, happens to be Jane's rapist. The fact that he traveled, the fact that this whole time Jane conveniently never sets eyes on him until the final episode, it all point to, don't be disappointed when you realize that he is Jane's rapist because that was main story we were telling, not a story solely about domestic abuse. But if you were watching it, thinking it was mainly about the domestic story line and these women being introspective, growing and becoming healthier, then this would not be what you might have wanted to see nor expected. You might not have ever thought that there would nor should there be a connection between Jane, Perry and rape. I was always focused on the mystery of it all and looking for a lot of connections.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[Razzberry]

Next season - Detective Zippo investigates the death and learns that Bonnie had motive?

[candle96]

3 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Fun tidbit: Adam Scott and James Tupper (Ed and Nathan) were dubbed. Adam Scott even took singing lessons to prepare, but he wasn't up to snuff. Jean-Marc Vallee is hilariously blunt about this in a Vulture interview:

It was Zoe Kravitz singing Bonnie's song, although her singing was dubbed in and she was lip-syncing to her own voice. 

Interesting! To me, it was obvious that wasn't Adam Scott's voice, but I was completely fooled by James Tupper. I figured it really was Zoe Kravitz because of her father.

[Razzberry]

The guy dubbing for Scott sounded nothing like him.  I would rather have heard Scott's real voice, terrible or not.

[lovinbob]

53 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

They said in interviews they wanted viewers to have a little sympathy for Perry and see his humanity.  See excerpt below.  So I feel like they kind of failed on both fronts.  He did feel more like a comic book villain to me than a real person with shades of gray.  I assume they were going for 'not too gritty' since we see him impaled and there is the comedic edge to the show.  But they also seem to want the domestic violence part to feel raw and real.  I'm not sure the mix worked that well for me.  It would be like if Desperate Housewives threw in a Burning Bed plot.  

There was a moment, when Jane was telling Celeste about Max, when I thought that Celeste was going to resist it and deny that it was possible. If this was a multi-season show, this could have been a storyline--that Celeste stays with Perry because she doesn't want to admit that her child could be guilty of harming other kids and so she puts up her walls to all the other abuse in her life. Glad that's not how it turns out.

But it does make me wonder about Max and his future. How much of this is about nurture and how much of it is about DNA? If Perry is an abuser with very little chance of recovery, as many have said in other threads (and as statistics tend to bear out), is this something that Max can be treated for, or is he likely to continue down the bad path? Is he is a sociopath like his father may very well be, and can that be treated? I want to be optimistic, but I am not.

Regarding Celeste cleaning the apartment in gloves. Theoretically some people wear gloves to clean, to protect their hands. But the type of gloves that she was wearing made me think of a criminal trying to get away with something rather than a woman trying to protect her manicure while doing standard cleaning. It gave me the feeling that she wasn't fully certain about the decision to leave Perry, that she didn't want to leave her fingerprint on the new place for fear that she might change her mind, again.

Edited April 3, 2017 by lovinbob

[stagmania]

Just wanted to share this excerpt from Tom and Lorenzo's review, because it articulates a feeling I had so well: 

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That, more than anything else about the series, is what shocked us the most; that we found their bond to be so beautiful and satisfying at the end that it almost literally made us weep. And it started with that series of moments on the stairs; first when each of these women wordlessly assessed the situation between Celeste and Perry for what it was and – just as wordlessly – put aside all of their bullshit at the moment to ensure she was okay. Watching Renata go from befuddled concern to warrior-sister without so much as a word of dialogue; watching drunken Madeline realize that Celeste’s perfect marriage was horrifying; watching Bonnie go from heartbroken bystander to enraged heroine – all of these revelations were conveyed solely through acting, making each emotional turn that much more satisfying for the audience. Even so, they were all mere appetizers to the moment when Jane, Madeline and Celeste all wordlessly “discussed” the fact that Perry was Jane’s rapist. The directing, the music and most of all, the acting, turned that moment into something electrifying, epic and profound. A series about the interior lives of women turned entirely on women being able to wordlessly communicate with each other in a world of men. It’s hard to put in words just how satisfying a conclusion that was. 

[MaryWebGirl]

3 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

I'll miss it, but too neat for my taste, it made a lot of the greek chorus stuff seem like a strange device (and was easily the David E Kelliest part of the show). 

I liked the Greek chorus throughout the series, but some of their comments seem so odd knowing how everything went down. Did the detectives spend hours interviewing everyone at the party? How would the Maddie/Renata thing even come up in those conversations?

Another nit I had after the fact is Gordon threatening Jane. Was he following her? He didn't seem to randomly be in the coffee shop at the same time. 

Silly little things aside, I loved the episode and thought it wrapped up everything very well. Everyone did a great job. And I totally read Celeste talking to Jane at the funeral as her promising to take care of her and Ziggy.

And I guess the previous scene of the detective on the cliff when it seemed like she was looking at footprints was her spying on the women at the end?

[Ms Blue Jay]

5 hours ago, shelley1234 said:

This is where it didn't ring true to DV to me.   Abusers are horrible when there are no witnesses, but they tend to have an amazing amount of control in front of an audience.   The idea that Perry would beat Celeste like that in front of all her friends and the whole community is just not what happens.   I feared they were going to have what happened most in real life situations.  The woman does not want to make a scene or be embarrassed in public, so she is willing to put herself in risk to not ruin her family's reputation in the community.   

I thought it all ended the way I thought it would, but it was still a good ride.  Now I really want to read the book since I know so much more would be fleshed out in there.  

I am surprised, but not in a bad way that they had singing and didn't use Reese or Nicole's singing chops.   It was better the way they did it, so I am glad they didn't go that way just because they have two women who they know can sing.  

I liked a lot of what you posted, @shelley1234.  Nicole's singing in Moulin Rouge is really nice.  

I also thought it was unrealistic that Perry got so out of control in front of everyone when he had spent the rest of the series being so controlled around anyone who wasn't Celeste.  I was disappointed that that's how they handled it.

A tweet I saw last night:  "Where is the trivia in this trivia night?"  LOL.  There was one tiny mention in the background by the principal. He asked a question and then said "Think on it and we'll come back with the answer", or something.  The most throwaway of lines.  Pretty funny.

It was cute how Madeleine got so drunk.

I absolutely loved Reese in this, from her acting, to her humour, to her charm, to her wardrobe.  And the guy playing Nathan did a good job of playing a douche.  

At first I didn't understand the Joseph character - and honestly, it still doesn't make that much sense - but hey he was very sexy and and the affair between Madeleine and him was hot.  Madeleine seemed to have chemistry with both Joseph and even Nathan (though with Nathan it came from her and never came from Nathan) but not really with Ed.

I want to thank everyone who posted pictures of the series and the Audrey Hepburn references for me.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[Keepitmoving]

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But it does make me wonder about Max and his future. How much of this is about nurture and how much of it is about DNA? If Perry is an abuser with very little chance of recovery, as many have said in other threads (and as statistics tend to bear out), is this something that Max can be treated for, or is he likely to continue down the bad path? Is he is a sociopath like his father may very well be, and can that be treated? I want to be optimistic, but I am not.

We don't know anything about Perry's upbringing, I'm going to go with he was nurtured into becoming the horrific man he was. 

I totally believe in nurture in this case.  I don't believe in a rapist/violent gene so Celeste better ask her therapist for a recommendation and get those boys into therapy. Therapy, being honest, I like how she started to tell him that he was a good boy, so he doesn't think he's bad. It's good that they are so young, so there's plenty of time to reverse the nurture. 

Edited April 3, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[QuinnM]

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It was cute how Madeleine got so drunk, in tribute to the book.

So I was wondering whether Shailene's acting was flat or whether Shailene was acting flat as part of the obvious PTSD.  Each episode it seemed she opened up more and more.  By the final episode I really thought she was doing a stellar job with her character.  And the little bit where she is standing next to her friend, babbling away and mouths to Renata 'She's a little drunk.'  Was hysterical and something I've either done or had done for my benefit.  In fact if any of these actors, including those kids, hadn't been as good as they were then none of this would have worked. It would have been a very light weight piece that ended up one and done.

[Guest]

Some interesting tidbits in this article.   http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/big-little-lies-director-finale-season-2-990596

More of Vallee thinking Perry wasn't just a monster--

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We all wanted this guy to be a good guy. He's a good father stuck with these demons. And he's sincere. Even at the end he says, "I'm going to change Celeste. Help me. I'm going to get over these f—ing demons. Please don't do this." But it's too strong. And he becomes nuts again. 

He confirms Perry recognizes Jane.

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...then the discovery of the flashback of Jane realizing that Perry is the rapist and then he recognizes Jane. 

He's not on board for a season two.

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To do a season two, I'm not for it. Let's move on and do something else! If there's an opportunity to reunite with Reese, Nicole and these characters of course, I'll be a part of it, but Big Little Lies One is a one-time deal. Big Little Lies Two? Nah. The end is for the audience to talk about. Imagine what you want to imagine and that's it. We won't give you a season two because it's so good like this. Why spoil it?

[DarkRaichu]

15 minutes ago, MaryWebGirl said:

I liked the Greek chorus throughout the series, but some of their comments seem so odd knowing how everything went down. Did the detectives spend hours interviewing everyone at the party? How would the Maddie/Renata thing even come up in those conversations?

My take: The lady cop was combing every little detail to figure out why the 5 ladies were lying.  She already knew the ladies were lying which was why we did not hear their interrogations.  The lady cop made a point to turn the speaker off when Celeste was being interrogated.  In previous episodes she turned the speaker on (or even up?) when the Greek chorus was chirping.

Edited April 3, 2017 by DarkRaichu

[madam magpie]

15 minutes ago, lovinbob said:

But it does make me wonder about Max and his future. How much of this is about nurture and how much of it is about DNA? If Perry is an abuser with very little chance of recovery, as many have said in other threads (and as statistics tend to bear out), is this something that Max can be treated for, or is he likely to continue down the bad path? Is he is a sociopath like his father may very well be, and can that be treated? I want to be optimistic, but I am not.

I'm not willing to write off a six year old. My thinking is that with only a few, rare exceptions, children are always redeemable. The show seems to believe that as well. Max showed genuine remorse when Celeste confronted him, and throughout the show, he clearly loved his mother (and father) very much. There's also a huge difference between sociopathy and modeling. Max looked to me to be modeling learned behavior. At six, that can very likely be reversed. Reversal at 40 is a whole different story.

[sasha206]

12 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

Yes but there is a difference between a dick and the big bad. Abusive husband Perry is evil but in a realistic way. Jane's rapist was evil in a realistic way.  But making Perry the root of all that was evil on the show makes him the big bad which feels less realistic.

The show has done a pretty good job depicting the intricacies of domestic violence but making him the master villain feels like they took it away.

I think the only unrealistic part of the Perry/Jane scenario is that in the big world that it is, she would accidentally find her rapist.  I don't see how domestic violence and Perry being a rapist = diluting domestic violence.  Often, someone who is abusive in one relationship is abusive elsewhere. If he can violently attack his wife and have very violent sex, why wouldn't he treat a one night stand in similar fashion?  Perry might have rationalized that the rape was violent sex -- much like he has with his wife after an argument.  

I think what this show has done rather successfully is show that domestic abusers and rapists can be that gorgeous guy, wealthy guy.  It's not an inner city thing. 

[mochamajesty]

6 minutes ago, sasha206 said:

I think the only unrealistic part of the Perry/Jane scenario is that in the big world that it is, she would accidentally find her rapist.  I don't see how domestic violence and Perry being a rapist = diluting domestic violence.  Often, someone who is abusive in one relationship is abusive elsewhere. If he can violently attack his wife and have very violent sex, why wouldn't he treat a one night stand in similar fashion?  Perry might have rationalized that the rape was violent sex -- much like he has with his wife after an argument.  

I think what this show has done rather successfully is show that domestic abusers and rapists can be that gorgeous guy, wealthy guy.  It's not an inner city thing. 

Thank you.

It amazes and frustrates me that people, even after all of this, are still trying to see Perry as a good guy. They are trying to rationalize this.  The need to see the good in people feeds this disease.

Perry IS a monster - sorry. I don't care how many articles are written saying otherwise.  His "Help me, Celeste" was another way of getting her to stay. It was another manipulation tactic.  She cannot prevent another attack, nor can she 'cure' him. HE has to do the work. HE has to  WANT to heal.  And therapists say that it is almost impossible for an abuser to change. The very personality traits that allow them to control and abuse prevent them from doing the work it takes to make the necessary changes.

What exactly is Celeste supposed to do to help Perry that she has not already done?

In the car, Perry ran through his tactics one by one.  None of them worked, and that's when he lost it.

The fact that people are buying this is more frightening than anything that I  have seen. And it shows just how persuasive abusers are.

[Eyes High]

34 minutes ago, Razzberry said:

The guy dubbing for Scott sounded nothing like him.  I would rather have heard Scott's real voice, terrible or not.

The rationale given is that had the singing been terrible, it would have been funny and given the wrong tone. But really, how bad could Adam Scott and James Tupper have been? It's not as if the songs they had to sing were particularly challenging. Jean-Marc Vallee's first choice to sing for Nathan was Chris Isaac. Seriously?

[Mabinogia]

6 minutes ago, sasha206 said:

I think the only unrealistic part of the Perry/Jane scenario is that in the big world that it is, she would accidentally find her rapist.

They really should have thrown a line in somewhere that Jane came to Monterey to find him, that she knew he lived in that area and she wanted answers. Because I have no problem believing a control freak who gets off beating his wife would have to look elsewhere while she's pregnant for fear of causing a miscarriage. He needed those kids to keep her under his control. So he goes off and finds some surrogate to rape.

I wonder if any of them told Bonnie that Max had pushed Skye as well.

I loved Celeste's scene's with Max. You could tell she felt so guilty about keeping him in an environment that made him think it was okay to hurt girls. I think he will be okay. They caught him early enough. They can reprogram his thinking. If he does have natural violent tendencies, they can hopefully teach him how to channel them into something else. If he was just mirroring what he saw his father do, then they will definitely be able to break that bad habit. He did look sorry and like he didn't want to do it anymore. So there is hope.

I can't express how unbelievably happy the ending made me, with the women on the beach, the kids, running, free. Celeste, in particular, just seemed so very free. Her entire world just opened up again. Renata just seemed so happy and grateful to be among friends instead of rivals. It was a beautiful moment.

I love when shows/books/movies depict women getting along. And it felt completely earned this time.

I will miss this show, but if it does not continue, this ending has made me okay with that.

[ShannaB]

13 hours ago, Eliz said:

And not to lawyer it too much, but I don't think they had to cover up what Bonnie did. I think shoving Perry off Celeste when he was in the middle of a vicious attack was probably a perfectly justifiable use of force to defend Celeste, even if it did happen to be at the top of some stairs.

 

I am an attorney and despite the fact that the death was all kinds of justifiable IMO, I think the ending was pretty perfect.  Why drag Bonnie through anything?  She might be considered a 'hero' but the news reports, the stories are forever and there will be a stigma and there will be whispers that will probably be passed down to her daughter. So much better that Perry tripped or slipped while beating his wife.  It is better for the women and especially all the children.