S01.E04: More, or Less

[formerlyfreedom]

On the eve of its release, bad word-of-mouth plagues Baby Jane; Bette and Joan brace for failure; Pauline tries to break gender barriers; and Oscar nominations are announced.

 

[Valny]

At the commercial break after her song, I was so hoping I'd find Davis' song on Youtube and yes! Sarandon did a pretty good job of getting her movements own. Loved that 60's sound to it... groovy man! 

I have a feeling I will be signing it in my head...." whatever happened to Baby Jane... she could dance! she could sing!......

Holy crap,did Sinatra really throw temper tantrums and be such a harsh bully to people on the set?

Poor Joan, I thought she was worthy of an Oscar nom, even if BD had the showy-er role.

The movie BD was pitching to Aldrich to direct about the twins was Dead Ringer right?

Edited March 27, 2017 by Valny

[Primetimer]

Baby Jane is a big success...but you wouldn't know it from the dearth of offers coming Bette and Joan's way. Eric Lillian ranks the episode's players!

View the full article

[voiceover]

I have never loved Lange's Joan more than when she told that boardroom of William Morris agents to fuck off.

I threw confetti at my TV set.  (Eh, I had some in the ashtray.)

[merylinkid]

"Know your place and don't you dare dream about getting above your station." 

Wow was Joan harsh to Pauline.   Did she forget someone gave her a chance once upon a time?   

Mamacita is killing it:

     Joan:   This is worse than 1933.

    Mamacita:   When Hitler came to power?

    Joan:   No when I was labeled box office poison.

   With Pauline:  "This is America.   You are not crazy here.   You can do anything."   THen at the end showing her the statistics.    

My heart kind of broke for Aldrich.   Jack Warner was a Dick.   Period.   End of Story.   

[Growsonwalls]

I know we were supposed to be horrified by Bette sashaying to the teenybopper song but I thought the whole sequence was charming and an example of Davis's famous can-do spirit. And I found the real video of her singing.

She does it with her usual sense of humor and joie de vivre. I think this episode showed that even though Bette's life wasn't a bed of roses she was essentially able to enjoy things. Joan was just a bag of misery no matter what. I give credit to Jessica Lange's sensitive acting that she's managed to make Joan sympathetic despite the constant Debbie-Downerism.

And Jack Warner is still a huge prick.

[benteen]

Very good episode once again.  I did miss the two butting heads in this episode though I got a kick out of Bette calling Joan a drunk and then having her drink.

Fantastic performances once again by all involved.  It's always good to have more of Allison Wright.

I love all the clips from movies and TV shows we are getting on this show.

Oof...Sinatra didn't exactly come off good here.  I suspect that was a good account of his behavior.  From IMDB, here's what Aldrich had to say about him...

Quote

[on Frank Sinatra] Unpleasant man. No one has yet worked out what really makes him tick. But he sings well.

[SeanC]

18 minutes ago, Valny said:

Holy crap,did Sinatra really throw temper tantrums and be such a harsh bully to people on the set?

Sinatra had severe mood swings and numerous brushes with depression that frequently made him  hard to work with.

[enoughcats]

16 minutes ago, merylinkid said:

Mamacita is killing it:

     Joan:   This is worse than 1933.

    Mamacita:   When Hitler came to power?

    Joan:   No when I was labeled box office poison.

I will be chuckling about this quote for a long, long time.

[Valny]

20 minutes ago, voiceover said:

I have never loved Lange's Joan more than when she told that boardroom of William Morris agents to fuck off.

 

Loved that too! They deserved it.  Reminded me of the scene with her in the Pepsi boardroom when she told the suits "don't fuck with me"...Or was that in Mommy Dearest?

Growsonwalls- I also put the link to Davis' song in my post.

[bmoore4026]

Favorite Mamacita-ism "Old west, mostly men.  Like bathhouse".  Jackie Hoffman really should be nominated for an Emmy.

Another great thing about Mamacita is how smart she is.  Her going through the census and seeing that women are on the rise and giving Pauline hope was awesome.  Also, she had the foresight to take the phones off the hook because she had a feeling Joan was not going to get nominated and didn't want her to wake up to Hollywood reporters asking how she was feeling about being passed over and Bette getting it instead.

Poor Pauline.  Joan was brutal in her criticism.  Now these I think were true in Christina Crawford's book - Joan never minced words and wasn't one to build someone up.  Probably because of her upbringing.

Aldrich remains the king of Woobies, and I'm guessing Victory Buono could be the prince.  Frank Sinatra was a motherfucker, though Jack Warner remains the king of motherfuckers.

Speaking of Ol' Blue-eyes, couldn't they have found an actor that looked remotely like Frankie?

EDIT: Turns out the actor playing Sinatra was Toby Huss.  Regardless, he just wasn't Sinatra, in look or sound.

Edited March 27, 2017 by bmoore4026
Found out who played Frank Sinatra

[annzeepark914]

34 minutes ago, merylinkid said:

     Joan:   This is worse than 1933.

    Mamacita:   When Hitler came to power?

    Joan:   No when I was labeled box office poison. 

@MERYLINKID: you beat me to it.  As soon as I heard those lines, I knew these three sentences are the best writing of all to date in this movie.  It's so Hollywood: OTT self-centeredness.

Is any else as sick as I am of seeing Joan Crawford drunkenly staggering around?  It's gotten so that I look forward to the Bette Davis scenes.

[enoughcats]

An article with pictures of Mamacita and some comments on where the Feud script wanders away from one person's reality.

(How's that for sidestepping whose reality is the reality?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4351604/When-Joan-Crawford-met-Mamacita-German-immigrant-maid.html

[voiceover]

Watching it again, I was struck by the preview audience's response.  Goosebumps.  And I teared right up when they rushed Joan in the lobby.

Pure thrill.  No wonder some of the ones who experienced it, spent their lives chasing the next high.

[Bama]

7 minutes ago, voiceover said:

Watching it again, I was struck by the preview audience's response.  Goosebumps.  And I teared right up when they rushed Joan in the lobby.

Pure thrill.  No wonder some of the ones who experienced it, spent their lives chasing the next high.

I was just about to post the same thing.  I totally got teary eyed for Joan when she walked out to all that love in the lobby.

Her reaction to the standing ovation was great too - real shock and thrill.  It was a real person's reaction not some movie star put on like so much of what we see in this portrayal of Joan.  Fantastic.

I hope all the folks involved win all the awards.

[TobinAlbers]

Poor Bob. When he was in bed talking to his wife and actually spelled out her divorce plan to her in jest without realizing that he totally nailed it on the head? The look his wife gave him was like 'You're exactly right, but you're too dumb/distracted to realize it' before kissing him? Ooof. But can't say he doesn't deserve it some pain after what he put her through. Molina is a low key killings it, this series. And while his lashing out at Pauline was waaaay harsh, she really did catch him at a bad time between Sinatra's antics and Jack's bluntness. And unlike Joan he knew he had been harsh with her and felt bad about it ... but yeah, she piled onto him and the worst time. 

Mamacita brought the logic and the numbers to back up her beliefs, but damnit it's still hard as hell out there for female directors and actors. 

Bette in her dance dress and Joan in the green tunic? I want those clothes. Heck I wouldn't even go out in Bette's dress just dance and swing my sheer cape around the house!

The final scene of Joan wandering confusedly around the house with the phones all off the hook and outing them back in place with the jump scare of Mamacita just appearing to spook Joan cut to  house exterior and we just hear Joan's anguished sob? Right out of a horror movie. Such a great job building the anxiety and suspense. Bette getting the nomination with Joan out in the cold really would be her worst nightmare/horror story brought to life. 

Jack Warner. Damn. Blunt, crass, and yet speaking true in many ways. Bette did her job and did the press, Joan didn't and there you have it when the noms came out.

[TheOtherOne]

Vanity Fair's latest fact check:

Feud: The Truth About Joan Crawford’s Rocky History with Female Directors

I really wish Pauline had been real. Kind of depressing to get invested in a character, only to learn she was one who was made up.

[ChiCricket]

1 hour ago, bmoore4026 said:

?

Aldrich remains the king of Woobies, and I'm guessing Victory Buono could be the prince. 

Ok, what's a Woobie? Urban dictionary and Google didn't help. :)

Edited March 27, 2017 by ChiCricket

[bmoore4026]

1 minute ago, ChiCricket said:

Ok, what's a Woobie? Urban dictionary and Google didn't help. :)

It's from TV Tropes.

"'A "woobie" is a name for any type of character who makes you feel extremely sorry for them. Basically, the first thing you think to say when you see the woobie is: "Aw, poor baby!'"

[vb68]

Wow, it really is hard not to pity Joan. As much as she wants to rail against the system, she just reinforces it herself. Her scene with Pauline actually made me tear up a little. I found it heartbreaking. And more than a little damning.  Joan couldn't see past her own narrow self interest to see that she could truly tell all the men to fuck off by building up another woman.  I think Olivia De Havilland nailed it.  Joan never really knew how to handle success.

Having said that, I'm not sure why Pauline took it to Joan and not Bette, who might have done it. I think she would have been more amenable. Or at very least remembered who Pauline was. Heh.

It was fun seeing Bette play the celebrity game. That's still how stars campaign for Oscars today, hitting the talkshow circuit. And the buzz of a movie before it opens rings even truer today with the internet. And is probably harder to escape.

Mamacita was one quiet badass. I wonder why she put up with Joan. She's the one who should have been running the studio.  

The funny thing about Jack Warner's smug assholeness is you can see he really thinks he's a good friend to Bob and revels in his honesty in telling people they have no shot at greatness and have no talent.  but no, he was not a good man or friend. He was privileged. And that's probably the nicest way to say it.

Quote

Speaking of Ol' Blue-eyes, couldn't they have found an actor that looked remotely like Frankie?

      I thought it was a very bad portrayal. During the scene on the golf course, I actually said, "That's Sinatra!?!"  Frank knew how to carry himself. That guy just looked like a schmuck.

Very happy to get more details on Pauline and especially Mamacita. Still waiting for more on Joan Blondell and Olivia. I wish we saw younger versions of them interacting with the others. 

Edited March 27, 2017 by vb68

[niklj]

I love that a woman directed this episode.

[Cherpumple]

As harsh as it was, I thought Joan's speech to Pauline was really interesting and brought up some points I hadn't thought about, such as the fact that women were more active in directing during the silent era and were eventually squeezed out when the movie business started making serious money and production companies thought women directors were too "risky". I don't know how true this is, but now I want to read more about it. I know that pre-code Hollywood was a lot more experimental, but I never really considered it in terms of gender roles. Also, I kind of get Joan's negative reaction in terms of the timing of Pauline's project. She was a major star for many years, and is now facing her swan song, so I can see why she'd rather go out with a bang than with an untested, unknown director. Some people wouldn't be concerned about this, but I see where she's coming from.

For the record, I'm calling dibs on the title "Further Tales of Old Hags" for my eventual autobiography. Thanks Jack Warner, you horrible bastard!

[Spartan Girl]

Boy, Jessica Lange is doing a great job with Joan. While she's making her seem more human than Mommie Dearest, she is still a trainwreck. It's hard to pity her sometimes, and yet I still find myself doing it. It's kind of petty of her to be so upset over getting snubbed when she already won an Oscar.

Poor Bette. All those raves and she still can't get work because she's an older woman. Hollywood really sucks.

[Chaos Theory]

The Pauline and Mamacita scenes were great.  They should join up and take over Hollywood and then the world. 

I watched the episode half asleep.  Had a migraine all weekend and a busy Sunday so I couldn't place who Aldrich's new Funtime star was. He didn't even have the perk of sleeping with.,,I'm assuming.

Aldrich really is a put upon guy though.  Despite his affairs with costars he comes off as not a bad guy at least compared to some of the others.

Bette at least tried to make lemons out of lemonade.  Joan just bemoaned things not going her way and then drank herself into oblivion.  Still that last scene was creepily well done.

If this was fiction I would expect Jack Warner to fall into a vat of acid or have a firey car crash and due a painful and horrible horrible death.  But not fiction and real life rarely has the villian end like that.  

[ghoulina]

A lot of focus on the non-oldbroads this episode. I wasn't really expecting so much of that, but I rather enjoyed it. It gave you a real sense of the times. 

And there was a lot of people taking their hurt and disappointment out on others. Joan and Aldrich both on Pauline, mainly. 

It was interesting to see how Joan and Bette both responded to life after the movie. They were both expecting great, big offers to come pouring in. But when they didn't.....the women handled it so differently. Bette was willing to do TV and talk shows and still try and promote herself. Joan just holed up and drank. I just can't hate Joan, though - even though she is often so much more abrasive. I just see a woman who needed to be validated. Who needed to be loved. 

And poor Pauline. Joan was clearly thinking, "Well, if even *I* can't get decent work anymore, you certainly aren't going to". And then Aldrich is feeling frustrated with his latest temperamental star and the honesty from Warner, so he lashes out at Pauline. Even when he'd previously made her feel so much confidence about her movie. It was really sad to see. 

Thank God for Mamacita. It's interesting to go out of her way for someone like Pauline, but I thought it was really awesome the way she was insistent on showing her that she could do all the things she wanted. And her Hitler line was gold. 

As someone who knows little and less about this era, was Sinatra really such a huge dick??? (I guess I should take that to the real life thread?)

[benteen]

Sinatra was not easy to get along with from what I've read and "acted out" numerous times.

The guy playing Sinatra looked like both James Caan and Frank Gorshin. 

Quote

The final scene of Joan wandering confusedly around the house with the phones all off the hook and outing them back in place with the jump scare of Mamacita just appearing to spook Joan cut to  house exterior and we just hear Joan's anguished sob? Right out of a horror movie.

It seemed also to be an homage to Baby Jane with the phones off the hook.

I did laugh when the film projector told Bob that he heard the bomb came in the first act of the movie.

[Inquisitionist]

9 hours ago, merylinkid said:

 

Mamacita is killing it:

     Joan:   This is worse than 1933. It's just like 1937 all over again.

    Mamacita:   When Hitler came to power?  When Hitler took Austria.

    Joan:   No, when I was  he labeled me box office poison.

  

Fixed it for you.  It was a more subtle historical reference.  ;-)

I liked this episode a lot.  That Bette needed to work, to act, and Joan needed to be a movie star, to be adored is being played very well. 

[SunnyBeBe]

The more I see actual footage of Bette and Joan, the more impressed I am with the casting of Susan and Jessica.  OMG, they both embody those women, imo.  

The story of these women and other people in Hollywood really is sad.  To think of all the glamour, money, fame, talent, yet, so many were tormented, miserable and desperate.  Is this just natural for artists?  (Van Gough like misery?)  I didn't recognize the Sinatra character.  Odd choice for that actor. 

It seems that Mamcita, (domestic assistant) is the most happy of them all right now. 

[hoodooznoodooz]

The actress playing Harriet really impressed me in her first scene a couple episodes ago, but this episode confirmed for me how talented she is. 

[benteen]

26 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

The more I see actual footage of Bette and Joan, the more impressed I am with the casting of Susan and Jessica.  OMG, they both embody those women, imo.  

The story of these women and other people in Hollywood really is sad.  To think of all the glamour, money, fame, talent, yet, so many were tormented, miserable and desperate.  Is this just natural for artists?  (Van Gough like misery?)  I didn't recognize the Sinatra character.  Odd choice for that actor. 

It seems that Mamcita, (domestic assistant) is the most happy of them all right now. 

Very true.  These people all seem to be a mess and unlikeable, while being terribly unhappy in their own lives. 

Edited March 27, 2017 by benteen

[JudyObscure]

I do feel sorry for both Bette and Joan's disappointment, but part of me wonders why they were expecting all those offers to come rolling in when they should know better than most people that the female lead in most movies is usually written for a young woman.  They both made dozens of films while in their twenties and I bet they never suggested that their parts be given to Lillian Gish or Mary Pickford.  Even now, is Merle Streep going to be cast in "The Hunger Games?"  Acting and dancing can't be compared with other arts like singing or painting because their bodies are their instruments.  They know that.

11 minutes ago, benteen said:

 Is this just natural for artists?  (Van Gough like misery?)  

Every thing I've read about Frank Sinatra said he was a jerk 24/7.  Depressed or not doesn't explain talking to people the way he did.  As for Van Gogh, he had schizophrenia, a brain disease, so probably not caused by his art.  I think sometimes the mental illness comes first and the art form helps express the misery, rather than the art causing the misery.

[ciprus]

What a great episode. This show has really landed with me, finally. I've enjoyed Jessica Lange as Joan Crawford from the start, but it was more of an uphill climb with Sarandon, simply because I know Bette's look and voice so well and Sarandon was just not quite there. (I did not like her work in character as "Baby Jane" at all.) Bette's shoes are very hard to fill, so I can't really blame SS, I doubt anyone else would be a better fit.

Joan is pathetic but I can't help but feel for her. Bette is infinitely more likable but she's tough and you know she'll manage while it's just down hill for Joan from here. It's obvious why Bette will be able to revive her career somewhat, while Joan won't. Bette was a fighter.

Seeing that clip of RL Bette Davis singing "Baby Jane" was great, thanks to you who posted it! It's a catchy tune!

[Vixenstud]

I’ve always loved Crawford’s movies more than Bette’s; that said I have to say that I’m unimpressed with Jessica Lange’s performance as JC.    

Now Susan Sarandon?  Chile is kickin’ ass and taking names, she has Bette’s voice and looks down pat!  Last night I fell asleep during an episode and woke up to her doing the Whatever Happened to Baby Jane song; for a minute I thought it was BD and it freaked me out once I discovered it was Susan.  Loved her asking Sylvia her name then saying ‘Fuck off, Sylvia!’  The one liners in here are too much, Stanley Tucci included.

[caracas1914]

Have to say this review points out a lot of the issues I have with the story;

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/critics-notebook-faux-feminism-feud-988848

Quote

The series' focus, disappointingly, remains how Davis and Crawford were victimized by powerful men, manipulated and instigated into hating each other by a male-dominated industry that couldn’t make room for both of them.

I think Joan and Bette were strong women who would have clashed regardless because they were very different in their personas and acting approach; but as far as Bette was concerned,she wasn't intimidated by another actress (or actor's) talent. 

In her career she had talked about how you are only as good as your fellow actors in a film, so she relished working with such professonals as Olivia De Haviland, Mary Astor, Claude Raines, and Leslie Howard.  She liked Errol Flyn as a person, but lamented his poor work ethic and coasting as far as  his acting.

Joan I think was different, she was hard working, but it seemed every woman (or Man) who took focus away from her in a movie was a constant threat, and from what  Bette recalled  about working with Miriam Hopkins and Robert Montgomery, she had little patience with this type of insecurity.

[iMonrey]

I hate to say it, but Susan Sarandon's portrayal of Bette Davis has been wildly uneven. At times she mimics Davis' speech patterns almost to a T, and at other times she just sounds like Susan Sarandon. And I don't think it's a case of Sarandon trying to distinguish between Davis' on-screen and off-screen persona, either. There are just scenes were she does almost a dead-on impression in casual conversation with another character, and scenes where she sounds nothing like Davis. There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to it. I can't figure out how the directors didn't take her aside, tell her to pick one acting choice and stick with it.

Lange fares somewhat better I think. She doesn't channel Crawford quite as well as Faye Dunaway did in Mommie Dearest but at least she's consistent.

I really liked the scene where Joan told Pauline to stay in her place and not try to rise above her station. That's the first time Pauline felt like a real person and not some tertiary character in the story. And I thought the guy playing Sinatra was just fine. What a bastard.

Edited March 28, 2017 by iMonrey

[SunnyBeBe]

It is refreshing to see that at least Bette was not afraid to laugh at herself.  That Baby Jane song....lol.   She didn't take herself too seriously after all.  Joan....OMG....talk about being wrapped up tight.  

[Inquisitionist]

43 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I really liked the scene where Joan told Constance to stay in her place and not try to rise above her station. That's the first time Constance felt like a real person and not some tertiary character in the story.

Pauline?

[movingtargetgal]

19 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

It is refreshing to see that at least Bette was not afraid to laugh at herself.  That Baby Jane song....lol.   She didn't take herself too seriously after all.

Just when I thought I could not love Bette Davis anymore, I see her performance on the Andy Williams Show.  Thank you YouTube.    

[atlantaloves]

Oh by the way way up in the threat somebody asked if the next Betty Davis' movie to come out was Dead Ringer, you were right. It is a corker. Great cast and story, I highly recommend it. She is so evil in this film playing twins, but you still root for her. I bet I have seen it 20 times over the years! And, she looks fabulous as well. Terrific supporting cast and she gets to be a little sex pot with Peter Lawford. It's a real thriller, I totally recommend it, maybe they have it on netflix, it's on TCM all the time.

[JenE4]

Unless there's additional tie-in to come, I suppose the Sinatra storyline was shoe-horned in just to illustrate that the demanding star behavior  wasn't limited to Crawford and Davis--Sinatra was even worse but he gets a pass simply because he's a man?

[Blakeston]

Is it just me, or did Pauline's script sound terrible?

I mean, I could see it being amusing in a campy, "Can you believe this craziness?" way, but that didn't seem to be what she was going for.

[A Boston Gal]

 I know it's been said before, but damn...Susan Sarandon looks freaking AMAZING at 70, even counting the fact she's probably had work done. Makes me wonder what Bette might have looked like in her fifties if the same level of quality surgery was available back then.

[ferretrick]

Is it just me, or did Pauline's script sound terrible?

I mean, I could see it being amusing in a campy, "Can you believe this craziness?" way, but that didn't seem to be what she was going for.

Definitely not just you, but it also sounded like the kind of picture studios were churning out then, and that Crawford was making pre and post Baby Jane, She acted in some real crap towards the end of her life.

[benteen]

1 hour ago, icemiser69 said:

Random stuff:

The rerun of that Perry Mason episode starring Betty Davis was on TV just a month or so ago.  It certainly wasn't her best work.

Alison Wright has surely played the roles of some seriously crapped on characters.  I hope things turn around for her character (Pauline) on this series.

Given how horrible the Crawford character is in this series, I am surprised someone hasn't knocked her on her ass by now. 

I was just reading about Bette's guest shot on Perry Mason.  This was the first of four episodes of the show where a guest actor (or in this case actress) filled in for Raymond Burr as he recovered from surgery.  Based on what I've read, your opinion about her work on it seems to be the general consensus as her performance is described as awkward and as if she read the script for the first time.

http://www.perrymasontvseries.com/wiki/index.php/EpisodePages/Show169

[psychoticstate]

I thought this episode was stellar.  I sympathized with everyone except for Jack Warner and Frank Sinatra who were both portrayed as insufferable assholes. 

The conversation between Joan and Pauline was spot on.  Sad that women were so shoehorned into certain professional and personal expectations.  If memory serves, Joan worked with one female director in her heyday - - Dorothy Arzner on The Bride Wore Red and the two did not get along.  Both were strong willed and Arzner did not want Joan for the lead role.  Arzner, however, was able to keep her career from the silent films into the talkies; she was the first woman to direct a talking picture.  Mary Pickford was a huge star in the silents but her star crashed with the arrival of sound and Little Mary's desire to play an adult woman (she was something like 35 years old at the time) instead of children.  The public wanted her in her childlike roles and turned their backs on her.  Colleen Moore was a huge silent film star -- she was making $12,500 a week in the Twenties and producing her own films but after taking a break for a few years upon the arrival of talkies, her career was basically over.  Moore was extremely smart though - she invested very wisely, which allowed her to remain wealthy for the remainder of her life.  She also went on to a second career post-Hollywood as a financial adviser (and partner at Merrill Lynch) and helped to design and curate dollhouses. 

Unfortunately for Joan and Bette, both women were married to their careers as actors and that's all they wanted to do.  It is sad that even after opening a new picture, no offers came in. 

I think that Pauline approached Joan because Joan used to be a dancer and her script centered around a dancer. 

Bob seemed to be getting similar treatment; while he did have offers, it was to rinse and repeat Baby Jane. 

Edited March 27, 2017 by psychoticstate
Hit post too soon

[kwnyc]

The actress playing Harriet really impressed me in her first scene a couple episodes ago, but this episode confirmed for me how talented she is. 

Molly Price has long been one of my favorite actors working on TV. She's criminally underused, and I'd love to see her in a series.

[enoughcats]

1 hour ago, A Boston Gal said:

if the same level of quality surgery was available back then.

Plastic surgery first started after WWI to repair (or try to repair) war injuries.

We happened to meet a man in Los Angeles who was the grandson of "the first plastic surgeon in Los Angeles" according to him.  He was in his late 50s in 2011.  Counting backwards, his grandfather accumulated the family wealth in the 30s. And he did accumulate wealth from the stories and memories our acquaintance shared. 

So, plastic surgery did exist, but probably without the 'tweaking' of facial nuances we've come to expect.  (With apologies to the actresses who all look alike now who seem to have missed the nuances by a country mile.)

[voiceover]

13 hours ago, vb68 said:

telling people they have no shot at greatness and have no talent

Not necessarily the same thing at all.  One may have amazing *talent*, but no capacity for greatness.  Garson Kanin quoted...somebody...and said, "It's not enough to have talent.  You have to have a talent for having talent."  Bingo.

I thought the coda shot of the exterior of Joan's house, with her scream of agony, was a salute to the Godfather's "studio exec finds his horse's head in his bed".

[voiceover]

Thanks to @caracas1914 for linking the Hollywood Repoter article.  Here's a money quote:

"The key to understanding the feminism of Crawford and Davis is to not look at them with pity (they would hate that!) but rather to identify their own non-patriarchal strength (they were both total feminists but would surely not use modern feminist language to express that)."

-- this, times a thousand.  Although it's hilarious that the writer had to drop in "non-patriarchal strength" as a quality.  My kingdom for the look on Davis's face if someone had ever used that in front of her.

[vb68]

telling people they have no shot at greatness and have no talent

Not necessarily the same thing at all.  One may have amazing *talent*, but no capacity for greatness.  Garson Kanin quoted...somebody...and said, "It's not enough to have talent.  You have to have a talent for having talent."  Bingo.

 

Well I was quoting Warner from two different points in the episode, but rereading it, I got the second part a bit confused. He told Bob he had no shot at greatness. He didn't exactly tell Joan she had no talent but ridiculed her talent compared to Bette. So I meant two different things. Sorry for the confusion.

Edited March 27, 2017 by vb68