S01.E06: Burning Love

[candall]

Watching with CC, the very end has Ziggy doing his production number, then a quick shot of the surf with the following sound cue in brackets:  [sound of a gunshot echoes].  Then Celeste collapses, hunched over, holding her stomach.

I don't think Celeste shot herself, but I think they tried to suggest that she might have.  And it's kind of amusing that it didn't work.

[teddysmom]

Quote

Even though the therapy scenes are super dramatically compelling, they make me furious. It's clear no one on the writing staff has ever actually worked with survivors of domestic violence. A therapist never pushes a client into leaving an abusive relationship. They make safety plans with the client and address any concerns, but it is completely unethical for a therapist to take the tone Celeste's therapist has taken. The most dangerous time for a person in an abusive relationship is when they try to leave. On average, a person in an abusive relationship attempts to leave 8 times before they finally succeed. Risk of homicide goes up massively when trying to leave. The fact that the therapist never actually made a safety plan with Celeste is totally irresponsible. 

Didn't she just tell her to get a plan in place for when she was ready to leave?  Get an apartment, get it furnished, etc. 

And she just advised her on what to expect from Perry's attorney. 

[Madding crowd]

I'm loving the show in general but also feel a level of pretension that annoys me at times. I teach school age kids and I can say in my experience a lot of the kids know music their parents listen to. However, with all the bright, noisy music videos on cartoons, Disney and Nick Jr., no kid is going to look up a video from 1972 and dance to it. Just don't believe it. Also Ziggy would be asking about his dad, but he would not understand the meaning of. Papa is a Rolling Stone or be able to put it together with his situation.

I wish the various parents of Abby would explain to her it's dangerous and not noble to auction off virginity.  She could be putting herself in danger, be forced to have sex with a 70 year old man and her actions would follow her around forever. I am sorry there is only one more episode, but they have spent too time on the kids and their musical tastes, and scenes of Jane running.

I agree that Kidman /Skarsgard are doing a good job and I genuinely feel fear for her in those scenes. In regard to the therapist: In the past few years I have tried seeing various therapists for anxiety issues. In each case they basically refused to discuss feelings and emotions but insisted on giving me practical advice on what kind of job to have and where my kid should go to college. One told me it's all about practical stuff now, which is what Celeste needed but I didn't . 

[sasha206]

1 minute ago, Madding crowd said:

I'm loving the show in general but also feel a level of pretension that annoys me at times. I teach school age kids and I can say in my experience a lot of the kids know music their parents listen to. However, with all the bright, noisy music videos on cartoons, Disney and Nick Jr., no kid is going to look up a video from 1972 and dance to it. Just don't believe it. Also Ziggy would be asking about his dad, but he would not understand the meaning of. Papa is a Rolling Stone or be able to put it together with his situation.

I wish the various parents of Abby would explain to her it's dangerous and not noble to auction off virginity.  She could be putting herself in danger, be forced to have sex with a 70 year old man and her actions would follow her around forever. I am sorry there is only one more episode, but they have spent too time on the kids and their musical tastes, and scenes of Jane running.

 

I agree with that.  Yes, kids listen to what their parents listen to, but I would think he'd be listening to more modern music.  Where is "Papa is a Rolling Stone" coming from.  And yeah, would a 5 year old REALLY relate to the lyrics?  Hell, it took me forever to understand that the Pointer Sisters weren't just extra happy when they were singing "I'm So Excited."  

The auctioning off virginity is such a stupid element to the story.  The writer could easily have found something less drastic to show her doing something rebellious and possibly because of the influence of hippy dippy parents that most parents would be upset about.  This is just ridiculous.  

[dmc]

2 hours ago, kj4ever said:

There is no way in hell that brat would get her laptop back if she were my kid.  No way.  Nathan is lucky he didn't have a black eye from not calling Maddie as soon as he knew what was going on, because I would have knocked him out.

Speaking of knocking people out, I am scared for Celeste for when she returns home.  I was very leery of Nicole playing the role because she has just over done it way to much with the plastic surgery - she has that desperate housewife or whatever the hell they are called.  That botoxed weird mouth/eye combo that those women all have.  I guess it is probably fitting on this show as Celeste is supposed to be a lot older than her hubby and would maybe take pains to look younger, and she looks more natural on the show rather than how surgeried up she's looked in recent interviews.

It makes me love Laura Dern even more.  I love when actresses just age.  She may have had some work, but nothing silly where her face is frozen with no lines in her 50's.  

Put me in camp how-are-they-going-to-wrap-this-up-in-an-hour.  We havethe rapist, the murder, the killer, the bully, the abusive husband, The Internet Prostitute daughter, the sexually frustrated whipped husband, the in-love man from the affair.  Jeeze I don't see how it's possible.

This who wouldn't call the other parent immediately, and yes she should have lost the lap top too

[Mabinogia]

6 minutes ago, Madding crowd said:

I wish the various parents of Abby would explain to her it's dangerous and not noble to auction off virginity.

I also wish someone would point out to Abby that if she feels passionate about stopping sex trafficking, then selling herself is probably the worst possible way to do it. It just perpetuates the idea that women are objects to be sold. I feel like if someone points out that she is hurting the cause for a few dollars she might decide on her own to change her mind. Of course, if this is just about attention it won't matter, but then at least we won't have to hear about how noble she is for selling her virginity for cash.

I loved the scene between Jane and Renata, not the hit, I don't like violence, but the make up scene. All Renata really wants is to be heard, for someone to act like it matters that her daughter is being hurt. For it to come from Jane of all people was perfect. It showed that Jane is the most mature parent there because she is putting the kids first. I do like that she told Renata about the shrink as I was musing in last eps thread that she hadn't told anyone.

I feel like there is so much more story to tell. Celeste getting away from Perry, Ziggy's name being cleared, the real bully being exposed, the dead person being exposed, the murderer being exposed and finding out how and why it happened (though if Perry is the victim the why is taken care of, because at this point even I want to kill him). But more than that, I want to know what happens to these people. I've become very attached to the characters. I want to know that Ed and Maddie are at least trying to spice up their love life, that Amabella is going to get therapy even if the bullying is over, that Celeste will be okay, that Jane is finally going to get therapy for her PTSD, that she and coffee shop guy will go on a date (he totally likes her), etc. I want to know how their lives go from here.

[Blakeston]

We've seen so little of Skye that when she showed up screaming, my reaction was, "Where'd the little kid come from?"

[Mindthinkr]

1 hour ago, stagmania said:

I don't understand this either. I was checking to see if she had any jewelry on that could've cut her, but she was only wearing one flat ring. Are we supposed to think she jabbed her eye with her finger or something?

I thought I heard the word "gouged" but I forgot who exactly said it and Renata wore an eye patch afterwards so we never did see the damage. 

[Cardie]

Quote

We have the rapist, the murder, the killer, the bully, the abusive husband, The Internet Prostitute daughter, the sexually frustrated whipped husband, the in-love man from the affair.  Jeeze I don't see how it's possible.

I suspect this episode was meant to close out the matter of Maddie's affair with the director, and Abigail will probably come to her senses about the virginity auction in a few lines of dialogue. The time limitation suggests that Celeste will in short order realize that the twins have abused Amabella, leading her to bolt in order to diminish Perry's influence, followed by him coming after her at trivia night where Jane recognizes him as Saxon Baker. Chaos ensues, Perry dies (I hope), and a long montage sequence under some retro-song shows us how the principals go on with their lives afterwards. Perhaps the detective gives a press conference that explains the aftermath of the death.

A possible way to think better of Renata's bullying is to imagine that she has always had to fight for everything and has come to see any opposition to herself and her daughter as an attack in need of counter-punching. That Jane can return empathy for aggression may be all it has taken to disarm her.

[CofCinci]

How great is that little actor playing Ziggy?!!!  Hopefully he goes the Leonardo DiCaprio and Christian Bale child-star-route and not the Corey Haim and River Phoenix path.

[stagmania]

1 hour ago, sacrebleu said:

As for the kids taste in music, it would make sense if we saw some adult in their lives with eclectic musical tastes that helped inform theirs. 

That would be Chloe's parents. Ed appears to have a whole sound system/karaoke set up in their home.

56 minutes ago, sasha206 said:

I agree with that.  Yes, kids listen to what their parents listen to, but I would think he'd be listening to more modern music.  Where is "Papa is a Rolling Stone" coming from.  And yeah, would a 5 year old REALLY relate to the lyrics?  Hell, it took me forever to understand that the Pointer Sisters weren't just extra happy when they were singing "I'm So Excited."  

I don't know, I feel like Ziggy is smart enough to understand and relate to lyrics like:

'Cause that was the day that my daddy died
I never got a chance to see him
Never heard nothin' but bad things about him
Momma I'm depending on you to tell me the truth

He may not get the gist of the whole song, but that right there is pretty obvious. I wouldn't be surprised if he told Chloe about his dad questions and she told him she knew the perfect song.

14 minutes ago, CofCinci said:

How great is that little actor playing Ziggy?!!!  Hopefully he goes the Leonardo DiCaprio and Christian Bale child-star-route and not the Corey Haim and River Phoenix path.

He's going the CBS sitcom route. :/

[vibeology]

54 minutes ago, sasha206 said:

I agree with that.  Yes, kids listen to what their parents listen to, but I would think he'd be listening to more modern music.  Where is "Papa is a Rolling Stone" coming from.  And yeah, would a 5 year old REALLY relate to the lyrics?  Hell, it took me forever to understand that the Pointer Sisters weren't just extra happy when they were singing "I'm So Excited."  

I'm going to date myself here, but when I was a kid The California Raisins were all the rage and because of that I knew soul/Motown and The Temptations very well at a young age. But I did not understand the songs beyond the very basics. I got "My Girl" because that one is easy. I thought "I Heard it Through the Grapevine" was about literal grapes. So these kids knowing the songs and dancing around to them I get, but the kids having emotional connections to these songs beyond liking the way they sound is probably too much.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, Madding crowd said:

I'm loving the show in general but also feel a level of pretension that annoys me at times. I teach school age kids and I can say in my experience a lot of the kids know music their parents listen to. However, with all the bright, noisy music videos on cartoons, Disney and Nick Jr., no kid is going to look up a video from 1972 and dance to it. Just don't believe it. 

I don't know about that. I didn't have Youtube way back when, so I couldn't look up a video from 1972, but I would put on my parents' oldie records and dance around the living room when I was a kid, and I assure you there was no shortage of cartoons or noisy music videos back then, either. I didn't know much about the music I was listening to--I thought that Joan Baez's "Sweet Sir Galahad" was about a dead guy for some reason--but I knew that I liked it.

Edited March 27, 2017 by Eyes High

[riverheightsnancy]

4 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I know people love the therapy scenes but I also didn't think the BBB joke was funny or appropriate.  The client is questioning the boundaries of their relationship and she makes a joke that she's going to ignore the normal ethical boundaries and do whatever to make Celeste safe?  She may as well have suggested she was reporting Perry to the police.  I guess I'm sensitive having just finished the book where most of this was handled with more subtlety.

Yeah, I agree with you on the BBB thing. I have had to do this in the past where a patient was upset and wanted to make a complaint, so you need to calmly give them the appropriate people to contact should they chose to do so. Hell, we have had patients call 911 on the patient phone (on a locked psych unit) because we wouldn't let them do something that they wanted. Then the police call us on the unit/staff phone and determine whether they need to come over and investigate. Like many have said, the therapist may have been trying to make a little humor, but Celeste is in the situation that she is in because what she is doing is not working. She is not her own best advocate at this point in time. If a client asks, you have to give the correct information or it could be construed as coercive or something else unethical (I would have to look it up to figure out what standard it might fall under  ;) ). 

[Earmuffs Mom]

My parents had me listening to Johnny Cash, Elvis, the Beatles and all types of music when I grew up in the late 70s/early 80s.  My daughter is 4 and we purposefully listen to oldies/motown because the songs have almost no cursing, are catchy and repetitive, and most of the literal meaning is pretty tame and/or masked.  Her favorite song is Proud Mary (the Ike & Tina version) and Bring It On Home by Sam Cooke.  

I got the impression Bonnie knew about Abigail's virginity auction way before Nathan did.  I was surprised to see their daughter screaming in the doorway because I forgot about her too.  

Next week is going to be nonstop action to tie up all of these loose ends.  

[Ina123]

The therapist knew darn well that Celeste wasn't going to report anything. Celeste is begging for the therapist to tell her exactly what to do. This has gone beyond therapy to friendship.

[CofCinci]

1 minute ago, Ina123 said:

The therapist knew darn well that Celeste wasn't going to report anything.

And now Perry has emergency room documentation to (loosely) support any claims that he is the victim too.

[riverheightsnancy]

6 minutes ago, Ina123 said:

The therapist knew darn well that Celeste wasn't going to report anything. Celeste is begging for the therapist to tell her exactly what to do. This has gone beyond therapy to friendship.

Friendship after 3-4 sessions? "Friendship" is unethical per the APA.  A therapist may have great empathy and may be advocating strongly for a client, once we start to blur that line, you start to lose your clinical objectiveness and it is an area where a therapist can be sanctioned regarding their license. This is under the section regarding multiple relationships in the APA's ethical code of conduct. Therapists must know their areas of competence and not extend beyond them. If we feel like we are becoming too involved with a client, the thing we must do is refer that person to someone who can act more objectively in the best interest of the client.  

[Ina123]

2 minutes ago, riverheightsnancy said:

Friendship after 3-4 sessions? "Friendship" is unethical per the APA.  A therapist may have great empathy and may be advocating strongly for a client, once we start to blur that line, you start to lose your clinical objectiveness and it is an area where a therapist can be sanctioned regarding their license. This is under the section regarding multiple relationships in the APA's ethical code of conduct. Therapists must know their areas of competence and not extend beyond them. If we feel like we are becoming too involved with a client, the thing we must do is refer that person to someone who can act more objectively in the best interest of the client.  

Exactly.

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

And now Perry has emergency room documentation to (loosely) support any claims that he is the victim too.

And she still hasn't told anyone, she still has no witnesses. Unless that nanny is one, she seemed like she didn't want to leave either Celeste and/or those kids alone in that house.

That therapist knows damn well that this has all reached life and death levels and Perry confirmed that when he threatened to kill her. I don't see that the therapist did anything wrong and she definitely isn't unethical to me. She doesn't see Celeste as a friend IMO and she did in this session exactly what she told Celeste they would work on in the last session, an exit strategy, that's what I saw. I saw a therapist doing with her patient exactly what she told said patient they would work on for their next session.  Celeste was more than welcome to storm out and yes report her, for what I don't know, because she IMO was doing her job.

It's all escalating to a very horrific place. Hell, seeing him there with the kids when Celeste left, my mind started to think about those cases when the abuser harms the children if they get wind that the woman might be leaving.

Edited March 27, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[riverheightsnancy]

2 minutes ago, Ina123 said:

Exactly.

Are you saying that you think the therapist is now acting unethically? I didn't get that from your initial post. 

[CofCinci]

8 minutes ago, Keepitmoving said:

And she still hasn't told anyone, she still has no witnesses. Unless that nanny is one, she seemed like she didn't want to leave either Celeste and/or those kids alone in that house.

That therapist knows damn well that this has all reached life and death levels and Perry confirmed that when he threatened to kill her. I don't see that the therapist did anything wrong and she definitely isn't unethical to me. She doesn't see Celeste as a friend IMO and she did in this session exactly what she told Celeste they would work on in the last session, an exit strategy, that's what I saw. I saw a therapist doing with her patient exactly what she told said patient they would work on for their next session.  Celeste was more than welcome to storm out and yes report her, for what I don't know, because she IMO was doing her job.

It's all escalating to a very horrific place. Hell, seeing him there with the kids when Celeste left, my mind started to think about those cases when the abuser harms the children if they get wind that the woman might be leaving.

Makes you wonder if Perry every tried anything with the Nanny. She looked scared of him. 

I wish this wasn't a one season series. So many stories to be told. 

[Lemons]

15 hours ago, mochamajesty said:

Have no idea who Joe Bonamassa is.

Super talented musician. I just found him recently on YouTube. It's never too late to find new music!!

[stagmania]

1 hour ago, Keepitmoving said:

And she still hasn't told anyone, she still has no witnesses. Unless that nanny is one, she seemed like she didn't want to leave either Celeste and/or those kids alone in that house.

 

51 minutes ago, CofCinci said:

Makes you wonder if Perry every tried anything with the Nanny. She looked scared of him. 

Their nanny definitely knows something isn't right. I recall in the first episode that she was giving them an odd look when Perry was pawing Celeste out on their deck. Maybe she just has good instincts, but she seems weary of Perry.

[Razzberry]

I think the therapy has been greatly accelerated for the audience's benefit rather than trying to be realistic.  I can't imagine listening to Celeste gassing on endlessly in her denial of the situation.

An abuser named Perry the Prick
had a wife take a swing at his dick
Now the ball's in his court
should he file a report
Celeste could go down like a brick

 

[dhilde85]

3 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

I'm loving the show in general but also feel a level of pretension that annoys me at times. I teach school age kids and I can say in my experience a lot of the kids know music their parents listen to. However, with all the bright, noisy music videos on cartoons, Disney and Nick Jr., no kid is going to look up a video from 1972 and dance to it. Just don't believe it.

It amazes me that they're so young and they're doing this. If they were a few years older, I would believe it more. 

[Kostgard]

13 minutes ago, stagmania said:

 

Their nanny definitely knows something isn't right. I recall in the first episode that she was giving them an odd look when Perry was pawing Celeste out on their deck. Maybe she just has good instincts, but she seems weary of Perry.

Yeah, I think the nanny knows something is up. Maybe just a gut instinct. Maybe she's seen some of the bruises on Celeste. Maybe one of the twins told her "Daddy hits Mommy" (I'm pretty certain the kids aren't as blind to what is happening as Celeste thinks. There's a reason why they always immediately comply when their dad tells them to do something. They know not to challenge him). The nanny was clearly hesitant to leave when Celeste and Perry got back from the hospital, and I really think it is because she was afraid to leave Celeste alone with Perry. 

The therapy sessions have been mesmerizing, and they did a great job of illustrating exactly what Celeste said - right after the beating, Perry feels guilty/grooms her to forgive him and plays nice. But as the bruises fade, so does his guilt and she knows another beating is coming. The night of the play, Celeste, who usually wears long sleeves and high collars to cover all her bruises, was wearing a sleeveless dress with only one small bruise on her forearm visible (that looked like it could have come from anything - easy to explain away). The bruises were gone, and so was her grace period. It was going to happen.

I really liked the moment between Jane and Renata. I thought it felt like Renata really just wanted someone to understand her (she's always seemed like an outsider to the rest of the moms). And in that sad desperation, she immediately glommed onto Jane after that small show of kindness, and was all "Hey, girlfriend!" the next day. That makes the preview scene for the next episode where Renata's husband is yelling at Jane disappointing and weird. 

As for Renata's eye, I think Jane probably just grazed her with her nails when she took a swipe at her. I think she was being a drama queen with the eye patch, because when she came up to Jane in the parking lot (which seemed like the next day) she had no patch and she looked just fine.

I can't believe how the parents are handling Abby's "special project." I mean, Abby has a point about people freaking out over something like this happening to a rich white girl while they turn a blind eye when it happens to poor people or people of color, but the rest of it is absolutely stupid/illegal. She's a minor. She can't actually collect any money to give to Amnesty International unless she actually sleeps with some skeeve willing to pay thousands of dollars to deflower a teenage girl. And what public school district would sign off on this? Even if the parents are like, "Yeah, we'll let her build the website, but we won't actually let it go live" why are they letting Abby waste her time on something that is never going to fly instead of working on an actual project to help her get into college?

I just feel bad for Ed. He keeps talking about how Maddy is the woman of his dreams. When Abby asked her if she still loved Ed, she nodded, but she didn't seem all that certain.

[Mabinogia]

3 minutes ago, Kostgard said:

I mean, Abby has a point about people freaking out over something like this happening to a rich white girl while they turn a blind eye when it happens to poor people or people of color

Maybe that was her point and she never had any intention of selling herself but is doing a kind of investigative report/performance piece to get people to see their own hypocrisy? Or is that giving her way too much credit?

[Kostgard]

5 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

Maybe that was her point and she never had any intention of selling herself but is doing a kind of investigative report/performance piece to get people to see their own hypocrisy? Or is that giving her way too much credit?

I kinda feel like if that's all she planned to do, then she could have easily told her parents that to diffuse the situation (especially when Nathan was freaking out and trying to take her laptop away). I think in her head she's going to go through with it, and that's what the visit to PP was about. Though I don't think Bonnie knew at the time of the PP trip about the project (she probably just thought she was helping Abby be proactively safe like a lot of teenage girls). 

Edited March 27, 2017 by Kostgard

[tennisgurl]

I cant believe that this is the second to last episode! It seems like there's so much left to do! I just really love this show and I don't want it to end. This was a really riveting episode, with a few things that are a little bit confusing.

I feel like the therapy scenes are kind of sped up therapy. We don't have time to watch Celeste be in denial for the whole mini series, so they are basically giving us therapy cliff notes. I do think they're really great scenes, and I love seeing how Celestes mind works, and how she has justified the abuse for so long. The big problem I have with the therapist is that she has a really closed off way about her, and seems very detached from the whole situation. But maybe with someone as closed off as Celeste would respond better to that then someone being warmer and more inviting. She does seem to be preparing Celeste for an escape plan, but its not going to be easy. Perry starts twitching finding out that Celeste has a second friend now, let alone her wanting to leave him and take the kids.

Also, I'm pretty positive that Perry is the rapist now. Its obvious, but the guy Jane thought was the rapist at first looked more like Perry than any of the other men, and we KNOW that the rapist is someone we`ve met, so my vote is now Perry. Speaking of, Perry can go fuck himself with his broken dick. Of course he threatens to kill Celeste the second she seriously tries to fight him off. I don't approve of violence, but if anyone deserves a hit in the crotch, its Perry. I'm not sure how I feel about how the Perry/Celeste story has gone. On the one hand, its a really strong portrait of domestic abuse and how even women who seemingly have it all together can become victims of it, and how hard it is to "just leave" the abuser. On the other hand, it started off being a slightly more complicated view of domestic abuse, with the abuser being a really troubled person who was really horrified by what they were doing, and really did want to control their anger. Or maybe that would be irresponsible, and could be seen as apologizing for abusers or something. Still, even if it is kind of Lifetime, its REALLY GOOD Lifetime.

Poor Ed. He clearly has known, or at least strongly suspected, about the affair for awhile, and he didn't want to truly confront Maddy because she loves her and doesn't want to rock the boat. It seems like he thinks Maddy is too good for him, and he confronts her, shell leave him. Its pretty sad really. Also, Maddy keeps acting like the affair totally ended, and...she just had sex with the guy like a week ago! Yeah it was just once, but still. I'm sure she feels bad, but its still a shitty way to treat a person you love, especially after being so hurt by an ex. and, maybe I'm crazy, but I just don't see how Ed should be considered so lucky to be with Maddy. Yeah he's kind of awkward and checks women out, but he's a good looking guy, he's smart, kind, makes a good living, and really loves his wife. He is basically the most quality man we`ve met on this show (besides the coffee guy), Maddi has been lucky to be with him.

I really liked the sort of apology between Jane and Renetta. I don't think Renetta is an awful person, she just feels helpless when her daughter is being hurt, and she feels lonely, being the Working Mom of the class. I think they both said what they needed to say, and hopefully they can move on soon. I also cracked up at Renettas "See you later girl!" towards Jane, being all buddy buddy all of the sudden. I actually wonder if Renetta will try to befriend Jane because Jane is young and "hip" and it will make her feel cooler. Plus, its a way to screw with Maddy by stealing her friend!

As for the kids taste in music, I can certainly buy that kids that age would like retro music, especially if they grew up listening to their parents music, but I do question it being the ONLY thing these kids like. When I was a kid, I liked the 60s and 70s classic rock my dad listened to, and the 80s pop my mom listened to, but I also liked Disney music, pop music on the radio, the music they play on Nick or on straight to DVD kids movies, and LOTS of Spice Girls. It wasn't all retro funk and stuff hipsters buy on vinyl. I think the creators just wanted their show to have a cool soundtrack, and Blues Clues does not a great Sonza Playlist make.

[Mystical chick]

Points of interest for me:

1. While I love both Adele and Sade, in no way do they sound similar to my ears.  It broke my (admittedly old) heart to hear Sade be mistaken for Adele.
2. I think ASkars is perfect for that role - he's got the coldness needed and he can turn it on and off on a dime. There's a menacing presence he brings out when he wants and I think it works well here.
3. Adam Scott and Reese were perfect in that scene on the porch. Things are said that have no words. Great job on conveying them.
4. Jane really put herself out there going to Renata's. I appreciated her doing that and Renata's response.
5. Having lived with (but not married to) someone who had that hair trigger temper like Perry, it's nerve-wracking. There were times I was sure he was going to injure or kill us both. Just watching that energy on screen throws me into instant revulsion. (I know some of you can relate, sadly.)
    

[mochamajesty]

8 minutes ago, Mystical chick said:

Points of interest for me:

1. While I love both Adele and Sade, in no way do they sound similar to my ears.  It broke my (admittedly old) heart to hear Sade be mistaken for Adele.
2. I think ASkars is perfect for that role - he's got the coldness needed and he can turn it on and off on a dime. There's a menacing presence he brings out when he wants and I think it works well here.
3. Adam Scott and Reese were perfect in that scene on the porch. Things are said that have no words. Great job on conveying them.
4. Jane really put herself out there going to Renata's. I appreciated her doing that and Renata's response.
5. Having lived with (but not married to) someone who had that hair trigger temper like Perry, it's nerve-wracking. There were times I was sure he was going to injure or kill us both. Just watching that energy on screen throws me into instant revulsion. (I know some of you can relate, sadly.)
    

I literally laughed out loud.

And I also wondered if there was a racial component to the question.

However...

Both are English. I cannot remember if Sade speaks with an English accent*. It has been ages since I heard her speak.  That may -MAY- account for the confusion.

They also sing the same type of songs.

 

*Dear God, please don't start the accent tangent again. 

[susannot]

1 hour ago, Kostgard said:

The therapy sessions have been mesmerizing, and they did a great job of illustrating exactly what Celeste said - right after the beating, Perry feels guilty/grooms her to forgive him and plays nice. But as the bruises fade, so does his guilt and she knows another beating is coming. The night of the play, Celeste, who usually wears long sleeves and high collars to cover all her bruises, was wearing a sleeveless dress with only one small bruise on her forearm visible (that looked like it could have come from anything - easy to explain away). The bruises were gone, and so was her grace period. It was going to happen.

 

That's a really good point.  It felt like seeing her in a sleeveless dress, which Perry found beautiful, was a trigger for him.  Other men would find her beautiful too, so it was time for Perry to mark his property.

I don't find Skarsgard's acting to be substandard or think that Kidman is out acting him.  The two of them are portraying the most mesmerizing and horrific depiction of domestic violence that I personally have ever seen.  I am so grateful to have HBO which keeps delivering quality, knockout drama to us over and over again.

Edited March 27, 2017 by susannot

[sasha206]

3 hours ago, stagmania said:

That would be Chloe's parents. Ed appears to have a whole sound system/karaoke set up in their home.

I don't know, I feel like Ziggy is smart enough to understand and relate to lyrics like:

'Cause that was the day that my daddy died
I never got a chance to see him
Never heard nothin' but bad things about him
Momma I'm depending on you to tell me the truth

He may not get the gist of the whole song, but that right there is pretty obvious. I wouldn't be surprised if he told Chloe about his dad questions and she told him she knew the perfect song.

He's going the CBS sitcom route. :/

I guess what I meant is that often as kids we may know the lyrics, but we're more paying attention to the song itself and the rhythm thank thinking "Wow, that's just like my life!"  especially at 5 years old.  

The song choice is just a little too convenient particularly because it is such an old song that a kid that age would be unlikely to come across and take a liking to.  At that age, I remember being all jazzed over John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt.  I don't recall liking songs 40 year old songs.

[Mabinogia]

41 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

He is basically the most quality man we`ve met on this show (besides the coffee guy), Maddi has been lucky to be with him.

Seriously. I want an Ed, and I wouldn't be taking him for granted. I'd be trying to break his urethra to old fashioned way. *wink wink, nudge nudge* I wouldn't really try to break it, but we'd get close. :)

I am curious what it is with Madeline and Ed. It's not that she doesn't want sex, since she was banging Director Guy. It's just that she doesn't want it with Ed? She used to, if Chloe is any indication. Did something happen? I'm really curious about why she doesn't seem to want him.

I'm sad this is almost over because I want to know so much more about these characters, not just who killed who but so much more about their lives and what makes them tick. They are really all quite fascinating diverse characters.

[scrb]

You have to keep in mind that music used in movies and TV shows have to be paid for.

There's often negotiations and producers may decide they can't afford the original choices that the writer or director wanted.

[Momof2boyz]

8 hours ago, humbleopinion said:

Plus not organic cow milk... it would be a almond/flax seed/rice/hemp milk substitute.

I recognized the milk.  Horizon Organic milk.  

[Ms Blue Jay]

1 hour ago, Mystical chick said:

Points of interest for me:

1. While I love both Adele and Sade, in no way do they sound similar to my ears.  It broke my (admittedly old) heart to hear Sade be mistaken for Adele.

It's obviously not an age thing, considering how old Madeleine is supposed to be.  Reese is 41.  If she knew a lot about Sade's genre it would be more likely that she'd know Sade's music over Adele's.  Sade was incredibly popular in the 1980s.  Just makes Madeleine seem a little sheltered in her lily white world or something.

Quote

I am curious what it is with Madeline and Ed. It's not that she doesn't want sex, since she was banging Director Guy. It's just that she doesn't want it with Ed? She used to, if Chloe is any indication. Did something happen? I'm really curious about why she doesn't seem to want him.

Madeleine, Show Madeleine is portrayed as having some issues.  Ed worships the ground Madeleine walks on.  There are a lot of people who are not comfortable being worshipped or even liked.  They respond badly.  Ed is doing nothing wrong but I personally know people who cannot even receive a compliment.  They will recoil.  Mad is still very scarred from Nathan and Ed is like the good guy who came along and saved her I guess.... Maybe she couldn't deal with the pressure of how Ed views her.  Silly to me personally but I am just throwing out theories there.  (This is like Daphne and Niles Crane, LOL)

I really like Alexander Skarsgård in the role too.  A lot.  I don't think he's being out-acted.  He is not what I pictured as Perry but he totally won me over.  I think Shailene is being out-acted and through no fault of her own I think she was mis-cast.

Edited March 27, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[heavysnaxx]

17 hours ago, nara said:

I don't think Abigail is trying to draw attention to herself.  I believe her motives are pure, but this is a ridiculous way to get the job done.  She might sell her virginity and get $50k for the cause.  However, convincing her parents to do an annual fundraiser, volunteering while she is in school, and becoming a human rights lawyer are all ways she can make an ongoing impact.

I had no idea Abigail was attending Flatpoint High!

Also: I was waiting for SOMEONE to point out to Abigail that her brilliant plan to combat sex trafficking isn't just silent on the matter of coercion - be it physical, emotional, and/or economic - but that it also suggests that her voluntary decision to f#&k somebody is somehow comparable to what trafficked people endure. And if her argument is that she's "doing it for the money," that's...sayin' the whole thing kinda works GREAT as a money-maker. Critical Thinking = FAIL.

This episode really flipped my feelings about Bonnie from neutral-to-good to seething-to-STFU. I thought it was pretty clear she knew exactly what Abigail was doing and truly thinks it's reasonable. When Madeline was furious about her helping Abigail go to Planned Parenthood and not telling her, I seemed to be in the minority, in that I felt Bonnie's keeping Abigail's confidence was not just excusable but the right thing to do. But this episode's situation was completely different, to me.  

[stillshimpy]

15 minutes ago, heavysnaxx said:

Also: I was waiting for SOMEONE to point out to Abigail that her brilliant plan to combat sex trafficking isn't just silent on the matter of coercion - be it physical, emotional, and/or economic - but that it also suggests that her voluntary decision to f#&k somebody is somehow comparable to what trafficked people endure. And if her argument is that she's "doing it for the money," that's...sayin' the whole thing kinda works GREAT as a money-maker. Critical Thinking = FAIL.

 

 

 

I'm fairly certain that isn't her point.  The point would be that people will lose their minds and Ted Koppel will report on it for weeks because she is a privileged white girl from the Northern California but we're all aware that children as young as seven are sold as sex slaves in many places, including India and the national outcry is muted, at best.   She's trying to use her privilege to stir outrage and make money.  She's trying to use sex-trafficking her own-personal-self to make a point. 

In the most completely batshit, holy-fuckballs-child no way, no how, think again, I will put you in soft-restraints if I have to, kind of way.  

Jesus, did not see that little online project as the end result of all of Abigail's charmless pouting and inability to comb her hair.   

I'm glad it has nothing to do with Ed and let me state for the record?  I'm pretty hippie-dippy myself, so Bonnie's status as a yoga doing, hemp wearing, peace talking search-for-your-higher-self is NOT what is giving her peace with the entire concept.  I was so glad when Madeline directly vomited on her, I was livid (in some kind of enlightened way, I'm sure).  Merciful Zeus, just how is she supposed to guarantee her safety?  With piloxing moves?  

Perry's broken penis similarly gladdened my heart and I'm to the point of hoping that EVERYONE kills him.  

Edited March 27, 2017 by stillshimpy

[BigBlueMastiff]

11 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

 

Run, Celeste, run! One of the scary things once an abused person has begun making plans to escape is that it leaves a trail. Getting an apartment means running a credit check (which you can see on your credit report) and putting down a deposit of first month, last month, and security is not an insignificant amount of money. Celeste wouldn't just have that much lying around in cash so she would have to put it on a credit card which means Perry could see it on the monthly statement. I think Perry is rich enough that he doesn't care how much money Celeste normally spends but that he would notice if she had a huge charge on her credit card.

 

He seems like the type to request a detailed accounting of how each dime is spent.

[stillshimpy]

34 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

i think Abby said "You still have Ed."  I rewound it a few times.

Closed-Captioning had it as "Do you still love Ed?"  

[Clanstarling]

20 hours ago, Mindthinkr said:

Oh gosh that dinner scene. Flashbacks of Linda Blair in the Exorcist. My first thought however is that Maddie  might be pregnant from her affair (the sight of the oysters induced the vomiting). 

Please no. I'm so tired of vomiting heralding pregnancy. You'd think there was an army of women just hurling all over the place.

20 hours ago, mojoween said:

If you are going to teach your kid all the technical details of baby-making, don't tell him the eggs are in your belly or you are going to have one very confused kid in 20 years.

Absolutely. Use the right words and name the right parts. Even if they don't understand them early on, they will eventually.

20 hours ago, susannot said:

Right, and Perry tries to rape Celeste while she is all dressed up and ready to go to her friend's event. Celeste cannot have friends or events other than Perry. And when she whacks him in the dick with a tennis racket, he is all furious because she broke his urethra.  Good.  She had better get out.  He explicitly threatened to kill her and he means it.

I totally missed how she injured him. A racket would do it.

17 hours ago, scrb said:

I don't know if the therapist convinced her or Perry saying "you're lucky I didn't kill you" snapped Celeste into action -- getting that dingy apt. which still has amazing ocean views with a giant deck on top of the water.

One person's dingy is another person's almost dream apartment. I was thinking how lucky she was to have the means to find a nice place for her retreat.

11 hours ago, Ina123 said:

The one twin lost a tooth and immediately after Daddy walks in having been away. Boys run into Daddy's arms. I would expect the toothless twin to shriek, "Daddy, I lost a tooth!" Nope. Nothing.

See, now I took that as a hint the twin who lost the tooth was the biter - the bite marks won't match up anymore.

9 hours ago, mojoween said:

I really don't even see how Bonnie and Nathan ever got together.  They are nothing alike.

I got a feeling in this episode that Bonnie and Nathan won't be together long. Fractures are starting to happen, and the kid is starting to be more than a cute accessory. Kind of like his first family.

8 hours ago, vibeology said:

Sure, but how about consequences for her actions? Taking her laptop away might not stop the website from existing but it would show her that keeping secrets like this and making such a poor choice has consequences. She's a 16 year old. Her parents get to decide if and when she can use a laptop and she has, in my opinion, demonstrated that her judgment isn't sound enough to use one without direct supervision. Like I said earlier, I think because they caught it before her website went live, the parents underplayed the severity of what Abigail did and spent more time making validating Abby's feelings and not enough time pointing out the dangers of her actions.

Don't need a laptop. Unless they're willing to take away her smartphone too, they won't be able to take away her access.

7 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I like the symbolism of the bridge.  The women roll along safely and somewhat obliviously in their posh SUVS on this thin, lovely span that is all that holds them above the violent sea and rocks below.  

I think the scenes of them standing in their luxe homes and patios and comfortably gazing out to the violent sea are meant to show the same dichotomy. 

I never thought of it like that - but now that you've made the observation, I'll never forget that. Thanks.

5 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

I also wish someone would point out to Abby that if she feels passionate about stopping sex trafficking, then selling herself is probably the worst possible way to do it. It just perpetuates the idea that women are objects to be sold. I feel like if someone points out that she is hurting the cause for a few dollars she might decide on her own to change her mind. Of course, if this is just about attention it won't matter, but then at least we won't have to hear about how noble she is for selling her virginity for cash.

I wish someone had at least made that point - even if Abby's intention is for publicity. It would have been an on point argument vs a parental freakout. (which was totally understandable, dear God, was it understandable).

4 hours ago, vibeology said:

So these kids knowing the songs and dancing around to them I get, but the kids having emotional connections to these songs beyond liking the way they sound is probably too much.

I don't know that I think Ziggy was having an emotional connection (though Jane certainly was), because he was so jazzed dancing to it. I mean it has a great beat and sounds fun. I used to love singing to that song because I could manage the chorus in my very limited range. Especially the high on "when he DIED".

4 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I don't know about that. I didn't have Youtube way back when, so I couldn't look up a video from 1972, but I would put on my parents' oldie records and dance around the living room when I was a kid, and I assure you there was no shortage of cartoons or noisy music videos back then, either. I didn't know much about the music I was listening to--I thought that Joan Baez's "Sweet Sir Galahad" was about a dead guy for some reason--but I knew that I liked it.

I did too (there was a country song that had a lyric "I had heartaches by the number, troubles by the score" but I always thought it said "I had spiders by the number" - I loved dancing to it. We raised our millenials on 60's and early 70's rock and roll, and when they left home they asked us to burn CDs for them. So I have no problem with intergenerational fandom.

2 hours ago, Kostgard said:

I really liked the moment between Jane and Renata. I thought it felt like Renata really just wanted someone to understand her (she's always seemed like an outsider to the rest of the moms). And in that sad desperation, she immediately glommed onto Jane after that small show of kindness, and was all "Hey, girlfriend!" the next day.

I loved that. I'd had my doubts any rapprochement could be believable, but BAM, Laura Dern sold it completely.

43 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

i think Abby said "You still have Ed."  I rewound it a few times.

My closed captioning said "do you still love Ed."

Edited March 27, 2017 by Clanstarling

[stillshimpy]

14 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I thought it was more odd for a health nut to be smoking

Was it a cigarette or a joint?  I assumed Bonnie was smoking some herb to kind of bolster her courage for having the delightful task of telling Nathan that Abigail was tagging her special parts for sale on Ebay (or wherever) but if it was a cigarette, I think the nature of the conversation she knew she was about to embark upon might have been the reason for that.  

Edited March 27, 2017 by stillshimpy

[lampwick]

Woah.  Prostitution for the greater good?  Didn't Bonnie teach her "my body is my temple?"  If I had a teen who dropped that bomb on me, my first thought would be, how did I screw my kid up this badly?  I would be having extreme flashbacks of her entire childhood searching for all the ways that I failed as a parent.   

My immediate second thought would be creating a failsafe way to win the auction.  Although she hasn't launched the site yet, it should be clear to her parents that they have lost control or at the very least have no idea what is going on with her, such that stopping the launch would be a fool's errand.   They certainly were acting like they had zero ability to stop her, basically begging her not to do it.  Where were the corrective measures?  I would be canceling her phone, taking her computers, removing her car battery, etc.  An inmates running the prison thing was happening there.   In my mind, any parent that failed to stop such behavior would be recklessly endangering their child.  

It doesn't matter if the auction is shut down, her strategy for bringing awareness to her cause is a big bowl of wrong.  Abigail doesn't understand that her stunt is tantamount to putting her profound lack of self worth on blast.  No one would ever remember that she was doing it for a good cause or that she was trying to prove a point.  She would be haunted forever and ridiculed incessantly as the chic who tried to get the most money for her vertical smile.    

It boggles my mind how parents seem to forget to actually parent, and instead act as bystanders in their kids' lives, content that providing for them and being a best friend to their kids is good enough.  Kids can have a million friends, but they only have 2 parents if they are lucky- some only have 1 parent.  Where is the guidance?  Parents these days have sabotaged their kids by removing any and all adversity in their lives, never allowing kids to engage in any kind of problem solving that will make them self sufficient and resourceful as adults.  This leads to a failure to understand consequences, which usually ends badly.   I digress....

For me, the auction reveal is the single most surprising and disturbiing moment in the whole series.   For some, the auction may seem unbelievable, but here in Chicago there have been instances or people raping and harming others live on facebook - with a captive audience!   So as absurd as the auction sounds, reality tells me it's possible.  Never underestimate a teen's ability to self-destruct.  

[chocolatine]

47 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

The point would be that people will lose their minds and Ted Koppel will report on it for weeks

Wolf Blitzer!

28 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

Was it a cigarette or a joint?  

 

8 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

It was a joint and I'm sure you're right about the why but it still seemed out of place to me.  Not horribly so, though.  

I'm pretty sure it was a joint, and most hippy-dippy West Coast types I know love their weed, so it didn't seem out of place to me at all.

[madam magpie]

44 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

I don't know that I think Ziggy was having an emotional connection (though Jane certainly was), because he was so jazzed dancing to it. I mean it has a great beat and sounds fun. I used to love singing to that song because I could manage the chorus in my very limited range. Especially the high on "when he DIED".

I'm with you. I think that Ziggy, like kids do, just likes the sound of the song. My niece, for example, belts out the part in Beyonce's "Formation" where she says, "When he fucks me good, I take his ass to Red Lobster." She has no idea what that means, though she does think it's fun to be allowed to say "fuck." "Folsom Prison Blues" was one of my favorite songs as a kid. I also loved "D-I-V-O-R-C-E" by Tammy Wynette and used to sing it with all the excitement and peppiness of an alphabet song on Sesame Street.

It was Jane who was deeply affected by the song lyrics. I had no idea what the song even was, but I got her reaction. I don't think Ziggy was purposely using the song to communicate his feelings about his father with her. It was just one of those moments in life where everything aligns.

Edited March 27, 2017 by madam magpie

[FemmyV]

11 hours ago, Mindthinkr said:

I also raised my eyebrows with @AmandaPanda when she mentioned the money needed for this new apartment for Celeste. I'm sure she would have made money in her previous career as a lawyer but how would she have kept it or an account hidden from Perry all these years? 

It's possible Celeste pawned some jewelry, maybe sold a few pair of shoes on eBay.

 

10 hours ago, hoodooznoodooz said:

I rewatched in slow motion but can't figure out how Jane's shove resulted in Renata's eye injury.  Also, wouldn't this be a really reckless move by Jane? Now she has given everyone a reason to conclude, "Oh, Jane is violent, no wonder Ziggy is bullying Amabella."

http://giphy.com/gifs/3oKIPDl6WDHI7u4yxq/fullscreen

the second time Renata comes at her, Jane's hand goes to the area of Renata's head, though we don't see the contact. Notice that it IS Renata, not Jane, who was aggressive, while Jane took an active defense. Unless it's on school cameras, though, it's they say/she says.

[Mabinogia]

15 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

It was Jane who was deeply affected by the song lyrics. I had no idea what the song even was, but I got her reaction. I don't think Ziggy was purposely using the song to communicate his feelings about his father with her. It was just one of those moments in life where everything aligns.

Ziggy dancing around all happy to the song makes me think he doesn't understand the weight of it, but damn if Jane didn't look like she just got hit by a truck. I think her paranoia makes her think Ziggy did it on purpose. I think she is at a place where she reads into everything, sees signs everywhere. It doesn't seem like she ever really dealt with what happened to her and kind of convinced herself it was over and done, but now it's all flooding back and messing with her head. If Ziggy was sending her a message, knew what that song was really about, I don't think he'd have been dancing around so joyously.  

I don't remember how old I was when I got what Papa was a Rolling Stone was saying, but I remember that, if I was having a bad day, it would make me cry, because my father left when I was one and was an alcoholic who couldn't pull himself out of the bottle for me. That may be why I don't think Ziggy gets the song because he just seemed too happy listening to it.  

[madam magpie]

17 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

Ziggy dancing around all happy to the song makes me think he doesn't understand the weight of it, but damn if Jane didn't look like she just got hit by a truck. I think her paranoia makes her think Ziggy did it on purpose. I think she is at a place where she reads into everything, sees signs everywhere. It doesn't seem like she ever really dealt with what happened to her and kind of convinced herself it was over and done, but now it's all flooding back and messing with her head. If Ziggy was sending her a message, knew what that song was really about, I don't think he'd have been dancing around so joyously.  

I don't remember how old I was when I got what Papa was a Rolling Stone was saying, but I remember that, if I was having a bad day, it would make me cry, because my father left when I was one and was an alcoholic who couldn't pull himself out of the bottle for me. That may be why I don't think Ziggy gets the song because he just seemed too happy listening to it.  

She really did look gutted, didn't she? What's interesting is that she didn't start out that way. He starts singing and dancing, and she's right there, smiling and laughing with him. It's only when she starts to make out the lyrics that her mood changes.