S01.E12: Mindy St. Clair / S01.E13: Michael's Gambit

[MadyGirl1987]

Wow.... Bravo show.... Awesome reveal! I did not see that coming. I saw the theory this is the Bad Place here on these forums, but I dismissed them as too out there. I will have to rewatch the season, but it all seems to have been well developed with everything leading up to this. I am hoping they are renewed because I am excited to see where they go with this. Hopefully the whole memory thing will not be too grating or take away too much character development. I am used to that since, as someone touched on earlier in this topic, I am a fan of Once Upon a Time and they have had more memory wipes then I can count without plotting every arch. I would guess the total, if counting a story arch where memory loss/retrieval averages about 3 per season over 6 seasons.(Yeah, I can think too hard about things...) 

I will also say, to the shows credit, that this could have gone VERY badly for me if not done well. I am still not over How I Met Your Mother's "wasn't about the mother at all... Ted still loves Robin" ending (Threw away 9 years of character development, and nuking a relationship the show had spent half the run developing and focused the final season around, for a relationship that we were shown REPEATEDLY didn't work, not to mention the horrible pacing of the last season and especially the finale... Don't get me started...), so a reveal the show I had been watching was not what I had thought could have gone very badly for me. I think what made a difference is that they put the cards on the table at a natural point in the story for it. It had been well thought out and carried out in a way that didn't refute what we had seen, but was a further development of it.

Edited January 20, 2017 by MadyGirl1987
Spelling correction

[Dots And Stripes]

It seems like Michael is making a mistake using the same Janet again. She learns new things each time she is rebooted. Last time she learned to love and hate. A more aware good Janet seems likely to make the ruse more difficult for Michael.

[AuntTora]

He's from Florida? Yup, Bad Place.

Ha! This show was delightful. I hope it comes back.

[Mockingbird]

11 minutes ago, quangtran said:

This part didn't work for me.

Tahani had ill-intentions despite doing lots of good. Chidi accomplished nothing despite only ever having good intentions. I don't buy the idea that they are BOTH bad people.

Plus, we haven't learned how Tahani died, but wasn't there supposedly some big sacrifice? Though I suppose the points system could be a complete lie just to torture Tahani... 

And I'm trying to figure out what philosopher would allow for both Tahani and Chidi to be bad people. Either only the end result matters and motivation is irrelevant or the fact that Chidi was trying so hard to be ethical and had the best intensions meant that he was good and the fact he irritated people (who still seemed to like him regardless?) doesn't really matter. I should have paid more attention in my philosophy classes. Chidi's willingness to help Eleanor and the really selfless pride he took in her progress shows to me that he's a good person. The system in which someone like him is in the bad place rather than in a medium place is really forked up. And how does Mindy St. Clair, who is pretty much a monster of a person, end up in the medium place? Were her coked-out intentions really all that better than Tahani trying to win her parents' love? 

Despite all of my reservations about the twist and Eleanor's note to herself, I did laugh at her new soulmate being a hot mailman. And I while I have liked Eleanor and Chidi together for most of the series, her goodbye to him made me ship them hard, even with her hilarious musings about Tahani. That actress is gorgeous. 

[Andromeda]

3 hours ago, swimmyfish said:

I. . .did not enjoy that twist, to the extent that I don't know if I'd continue watching when/if the show returns. And this was my favorite show of the season -  I enjoyed spending time each week with good yet flawed people, and with a medium person who deserved to go to a medium place but was consistently working towards becoming a better person. And instead, I've been tortured this whole time because this show - which is not in any way responsible for the current political climate but still, it was one reliably bright spot over the past few increasingly terrible months - has all along known that there was going to be no hope for redemption? I genuinely feel betrayed. Fork you, Good Place.

I agree. This show was my own Good Place. I loved the neighborhood being flawed, yet basically good, like all the characters. I loved Original Flavor Michael. Now I'm kinda bummed. The twist was surprising (I haven't been into speculating), but not satisfying like a delicious yogurt and a silly clown house with perfectly manicured fountains and lawns.

I did always suspect Tahani wasn't particularly good -- too shallow and self-absorbed, and she was verbally sparring with Eleanor. But I grew to love her character.

And Chidi is not bad. Period.

Feeling very sad.

Edited January 20, 2017 by Andromeda
clarification

[HunterHunted]

1 hour ago, Dots And Stripes said:

It seems like Michael is making a mistake using the same Janet again. She learns new things each time she is rebooted. Last time she learned to love and hate. A more aware good Janet seems likely to make the ruse more difficult for Michael.

Michael only has the one Good Janet. Every other Janet that he has access to is bad. She learns new things every time she's rebooted, but I think Michael is gambling on Janet not learning enough to be problematic. Typically she shouldn't have been rebooted as frequently as she has been. 

I loved the twist! I'm in for next season. I see lots of people are disappointed. Everyone is entitled to their own feelings and opinions. I loved the twist. It was evil and nasty, which isn't a thing that I have a problem with. The thing I loved about the twist was that Michael designed a system where they tortured each other. However, they all managed to find a way to make each other happy. They are their good place and Eleanor's note to herself makes it clear that she gets it. She was nominally raised by two people who couldn't get it together enough to care what she did. Now in death, she's found 2.3 people who care about what happens to her and she cares what happens to them too. This is better and deeper than what she had when she was alive.

Edited January 20, 2017 by HunterHunted

[Fiftyninth]

I am just realizing we should have seen this coming when Michael kicked that dog into the sun back in the first or second episode!

Edited January 21, 2017 by Fiftyninth
Missing word

[memememe76]

How amazing was Kristen Bell in these episodes? Truly wonderful. Holy mother forking shortballs! Hilarious with a real humanity. 

I will miss this show. Easily the biggest surprise this season. 

[GaT]

After all the scenarios I thought up, this actually being the bad place & Michael being evil was not one of them, so congrats show, you totally got me. I'm just not sure how I feel about it, & I can't even imagine where they go for season 2. I do kind of feel bad about Michael not being a good guy anymore, unless this whole "this is actually the bad place" thing is a fake out.

Mindy talking about cocaine had me LMAO. 

Edited January 20, 2017 by GaT

[possibilities]

I suspected something was going on besides just Eleanor and Jason being there by mistake, but I didn't think of the possibility that Michael was evil and deliberately set the place up to torment them. I don't even know how that would work. Maybe the twist is that what they told us isn't the real twist. I did love Shawn's cocoon, though.

I have mixed feelings about it. My own idea is that a truly just afterlife would be pleased that residents were improving themselves, making each other happy, and preferred to not torture each other. I think both intentions and actions matter, so I don't have a problem with Chidi and Tahani both being on the wrong side of the balance, since they both did all of one and none of the other. Jason seems stupid as hell, and probably had zero guidance at any time, sort of the mirror image of Eleanor being smart with no guidance.

19 minutes ago, HunterHunted said:

She was nominally raised by two people who couldn't get it together enough to care what she did. Now in death, she's found 2.3 people who care about what happens to her and she cares what happens to them too. This is better and deeper than what she had when she was alive.

[bros402]

The episode was great.

Also, I am shipping Tahani & Eleanor.

[Kromm]

I'd guessed a fairly large percentage of what we saw happen... but... I still enjoyed that.

[Kromm]

4 hours ago, Fiftyninth said:

I am just realizing we should seen this coming when Michael kicked that dog into the sun back in the first or second episode!

Actually you bringing that up makes me realize that was a flaw in the script.

I mean isn't that an incident that didn't happen in front of any of our four main characters?  So who was it "acted" for?

3 hours ago, bros402 said:

The episode was great.

Also, I am shipping Tahani & Eleanor.

Schur knows about slashie shipping so wrote that into the script to play into/honor that, I think.

[Kromm]

5 hours ago, Andromeda said:

I did always suspect Tahani wasn't particularly good -- too shallow and self-absorbed, and she was verbally sparring with Eleanor. But I grew to love her character.

And Chidi is not bad. Period.

Feeling very sad.

Yeah, but it made sense to me. Several of us called these "bad" qualities of Chidi and Tahani out as early as Episode 1.  Chidi wasn't a doer, he was a sayer. Telling people about morality more than living it. And Tahani only really showed her nice side when Eleanor extended herself and made the right gestures to her.

I can actually buy that maybe Eleanor is the first REAL friend Tahani has ever had. As for Chidi? He had friends... but I agree. He was bad for them. He sucked the life out of every room he was in. Eleanor, the catalyst (something I called her as early as Episode 3) was again the agent for changing him. She gave him a cause... and one where he had to actually invest himself rather than it being just an academic thing.

Again, even though I called a lot of this as early as the first few episodes, and even though I though they could have gone even DARKER than they did, I nevertheless enjoyed almost all of this finale. I especially loved the huge but organic growth in Eleanor. It wasn't just the growth of her morality, but also the brains and spunk they had her show in these episodes. Chidi isn't the smart one. She is. Chidi is just the educated one.

In most good stories there's a need for a heroes' journey. That's truly what we saw happen with Eleanor. She came off as genuinely heroic in this.

Edited January 20, 2017 by Kromm

[Kromm]

(never mind!)

Edited January 20, 2017 by Kromm
double post

[CofCinci]

So Michael is a Bad Place resident too, right? Literally has a kid for a boss. Annoying coworker keeps asking which is the decaf.  His presentation is interrupted. His big plan fails....  He's in hell and doesn't know it.  Or at least that's my version of hell.

I love this show and look forward to next season. 

Edited January 20, 2017 by CofCinci

[ElectricBoogaloo]

The opening sequence of Eleanor being the absolute worst at the grocery store was hilarious. I guess I'm going to the bad place because now I kind of want to use my arm to sweep an entire row of potato chips into my shopping cart.

Loved that Jason retained ONE of Chidi's lessons so that he could justify Tahani and Chidi being bad too. Even when the kid in the back of the classroom seems like he's not paying attention, he might let one or two facts enter his brain!

[Miles]

That was a really good twist and I have to confess, I did not see that coming.

I'm only somewhat sad that Micheal was behind it and is actually really mean. But it makes sense. Why would his retirement be eternal torment? In retrospect that statement seems like something designed to psychologically torment Elenor with guilt.

I'm also not a fan of memory wipes, since I've seen them used in very boring way a lot recently. But this show has been great so far, so I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.

If I had been Elenor I had at least written "This is the bad place! Find Chidi." It's not like she didn't have enough time for that part.

Edited January 20, 2017 by Miles

[Three]

I’m a wreck. I just saw Lion today too so I am all over the place.

That was brilliant. Upsetting (as in apple cart and personally) but brilliant.

But Waaah!  I need a Good Michael, especially at the moment, and now that illusion has been shattered and we have the rest of 2017 in front of us.  And we’ve got no idea what the Good Place would be like because we’ve all been in the Bad Place.  All season. Evil Ted Danson. The world is wrong! Good Janet save us!

That Schur guy is just-

I need to process.

7 hours ago, Mockingbird said:

Despite all of my reservations about the twist and Eleanor's note to herself, I did laugh at her new soulmate being a hot mailman. And I while I have liked Eleanor and Chidi together for most of the series, her goodbye to him made me ship them hard, even with her hilarious musings about Tahani. That actress is gorgeous. 

Yes, Michael is obviously tweaking a la noting Eleanor's motivation with the mailbox fire.  I'm trying not to ship anymore but that Eleanor and Chidi stuff at the end was so sweet. And will they recognize each other in some way when they meet again? Any of them, you know, soul-mate style. It's still the four of them in their private hell presumably. 

2 hours ago, Kromm said:

I'd guessed a fairly large percentage of what we saw happen... but... I still enjoyed that.

I guessed NOTHING.  And I am normally pretty good at plot developments and lines word for word. 

And a nice Memento style start to the next season perhaps? 

Edited January 20, 2017 by Three
spelling

[MsNewsradio]

I absolutely loved the episode. Cannot wait to see what they have in store for Season 2. It is very, very rare for any television show to surprise me these days, as even the plot twists on most shows seem telegraphed, but this show managed to do it. Like others, I figured something was off about the Good Place, but assumed it was more a purgatory-style place. Never thought it would outright be the Bad Place. 

The only thing that I find sad is that the Michael we've known up until this point was an act - I hate to lose that innocent version of him. At the same time, I can certainly see a few ways they could "redeem" him as the show goes forward.

[sacrebleu]

Mind. Officially blown. I'm not sure how I feel about the twist- yet, but I do appreciate that the season was all thought out. I'm eager to do a rewatch to see if I could pick up anything.

I was one of the people who suspected that Tahani might have been a fraud with her constant name-dropping and humble-bragging. Although she and Chidi seem like perfect counterpoints. She did a lot of good, but for the wrong reasons. Chidi had good intentions but was so tortured with the thought of whether he was doing good that he didn't do much of anything, and hurt those around him. 

I don't have a problem with all this being set up for four people. I assume the residents of the afterlife have infinite time and resources. 

[SoothingDave]

It is refreshing to have a series where the ending was planned.  So many just wing it on story arcs.

That said, I was assuming this was some sort of purgatory.  Not expecting the Joe Schmo ending.  

Not sure what they do with a second season.  I'd watch to see.  (Hell, I watched the second season of Wayward Pines and that was awful.)

[TheOtherOne]

I really liked this observation from Vulture's review:

 

If you look at it from the perspective of (Michael) Schur's career thus far, hitting reset on The Good Place is also a genius compensation for his weaknesses as a showrunner. The Office, Parks and Rec, and Brooklyn Nine-Nine all needed at least a half-season of air to really gel, so Schur decided to lean into that and build up a group of characters just enough before totally resetting the board.

I've never seen a creator build a structure around their own perceived weaknesses quite as intuitively (and simultaneously create something that instantly merits a full rewatch, which NBC surely hopes will compensate for the 13-episode order and the lack of buzz in a Peak TV world.) In the process, Schur has also created an arch little bit of commentary on the creation of every sitcom ever made — namely, by finding six people to endlessly torture each other, until the puppets get bored or the puppeteers have had enough.

There is a reason the devil in this show is named Michael, and the episode you just watched is, indeed, his gambit. It's a darn good one.

[Mabinogia]

8 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

The thing I loved about the twist was that Michael designed a system where they tortured each other. However, they all managed to find a way to make each other happy. They are their good place and Eleanor's note to herself makes it clear that she gets it. She was nominally raised by two people who couldn't get it together enough to care what she did. Now in death, she's found 2.3 people who care about what happens to her and she cares what happens to them too. This is better and deeper than what she had when she was alive.

Michael has proven that "bad" people can improve themselves even after death. I'd love it if that is what he was trying to do all along, but IDK. I do think his fascination with things like suspenders was true though. I think he has an affection for humans. It's just his job to design hell. Maybe he wants to change the system.

My mind was totally blown away! I had chills. I also admit to crying more than once. I love these characters so much and it will be fun to see how they all get together this time, because they will, and they will prove that even the dead deserve a chance to save themselves.

[Big Mother]

OK. I actually loved the twist - but only bc I had read this thread before and therefore wasn't as shocked. I don't buy Michael as a bad being. If you think about it, our foursome wouldve ended up in the real Bad Place if not for his intervention. At least they had a fun and dramatic time. I enjoyed seeing the little twists we saaw behind the scenes. I'm impressed by how cleverly this show was designed.

What I DON"T like, is the memory wipe. Ugh. I guess they needed a backdoor for Season 2.

Looking forward to Season 2. It'll be way too long to wait though. I don't know if the fanbase will be around by next fall.

 

The question is: Is Chris Baker real? Where are the others? Chidi wn't remember anything anyway. So what's the point? Should be fun watching them next season struggle to figure out what the fork is happening.

Edited January 20, 2017 by Big Mother

[RealityCreator]

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Chidi wasn't a doer, he was a sayer. Telling people about morality more than living it. 

I see Chidi as someone who was living morality to such a ridiculous degree that it crippled his life.

I was surprised by the twist even though I knew that The Good Place wasn't really good.  I thought it was pretty clever, a metaphor for the way we live our lives:  petty fights and insults, one-ups-manship, annoying each other with our yammering about our beliefs while taking no real action to improve the lives of others.  We live in the Bad Place.  (Not to mention war, terrorism, racism, poverty, etc.  We have a lot of work to do to!).

I don't know where the show can go from here, and even though Groundhog Day is one of my all time favorite movies, I don't know if I'd want to watch multiple seasons of memory wipes and resets (which I doubt is what the showrunner has in mind, but still).  I'm going to go along for the ride.  This was one of the most surprising and fun shows I've ever seen, and I will hope for the best that they keep up the quality.

I will miss the good Michael too.  He was an original and delightful character.  I'm hopeful that they will introduce parallel universes at some point where the good Michael actually exists!

[withanaich]

Quote

If I had been Elenor I had at least written "This is the bad place! Find Chidi." It's not like she didn't have enough time for that part.

Personally, I would have written something more vague like "Eleanor - Find Chidi. You can only trust him, Jianyu, Tahani, and Janet." But Eleanor didn't know how much time she had (even if we did because it's TV), so she had to quickly think of something that would circumvent Michael's plan, while taking into account that she would be re-set and not acting like "herself" (or at least not the "self" she'd come to be in the fake Good Place), not to mention thinking of a way to hide the note. If the Eleanor who'd originally arrived in the "Good" Place had been told she was actually in the Bad Place, she'd have probably gone off. I don't think she would be able to keep it to herself, stay quiet, and figure things out. And the improved Eleanor knew that about herself.

Quote

And we’ve got no idea what the Good Place would be like because we’ve all been in the Bad Place. 

That's actually something they could do in a future season (for people wondering how much longevity this show could have): show us what the real Good Place is like, in addition to showing us more of the other neighborhoods in the Bad Place. I'm guessing where Schur is going with this is that NO ONE actually ends up in the Good Place (which I think they alluded to when they told Eleanor about all the seemingly selfless people who didn't make it in), so when they get there it's empty. And that, of course, is complete and utter bullshirt.

I'm bummed about the reveal, especially the fact that it was Michael's cruel plan all along. Even if we learned that they were all in the Bad Place, it would've been a nice silver lining to have Michael at least be what he said he was. But I still think there are a lot of directions in which the show can go even after a memory wipe, given how creative and daring Schur apparently is. 

[EyewatchTV211]

16 minutes ago, withanaich said:

That's actually something they could do in a future season (for people wondering how much longevity this show could have): show us what the real Good Place is like, in addition to showing us more of the other neighborhoods in the Bad Place. I'm guessing where Schur is going with this is that NO ONE actually ends up in the Good Place (which I think they alluded to when they told Eleanor about all the seemingly selfless people who didn't make it in), so when they get there it's empty. And that, of course, is complete and utter bullshirt.

 

I think this is a key point in why Chidi and Tahani are in the Bad Place, although many here don't think they are bad enough for that. If we can believe Janet, and it seems like we can......., a lot of people that we would consider amazingly good are in the Bad Place. Very few of the best are in the Good Place. Which again really fits with how none of these characters could have been in the Good Place. None of them are to the level of some of the greats Janet mentioned didn't make it. 

[FormerMod-a1]

I liked that they had the Lava man (forgetting his name) walk into the conference area.  He represents the 'typical' fire and brimstone "Bad Place" which they mentioned in passing somewhere in the ep.  I also liked that just like a real office, there was a mix up and he actually had the conference room/area later.  

[Jack Kerouac]

11 hours ago, quangtran said:

This part didn't work for me.

Tahani had ill-intentions despite doing lots of good. Chidi accomplished nothing despite only ever having good intentions. I don't buy the idea that they are BOTH bad people.

They arent necessarily BAD people, they just aren't good ENOUGH to get into The Good Place.

[meep.meep]

Isn't this what Sartre said hell was supposed to be in No Exit?  Hell is people torturing each other with words.

[RealityCreator]

Quote

I liked that they had the Lava man (forgetting his name) walk into the conference area.  

Todd

[axlmadonna]

Quote

Quote

I am just realizing we should seen this coming when Michael kicked that dog into the sun back in the first or second episode!

Actually you bringing that up makes me realize that was a flaw in the script.

I mean isn't that an incident that didn't happen in front of any of our four main characters?  So who was it "acted" for?

I think it was acted for us. As someone said earlier, as a clue to who he really was.

 

Quote

I liked that they had the Lava man (forgetting his name) walk into the conference area.  He represents the 'typical' fire and brimstone "Bad Place" which they mentioned in passing somewhere in the ep.

I believe that "real" Eleanor mentioned that she had befriended some of the fire creatures when she was in the Bad Place before, which was one reason she was okay with going back.

[Silly Angel]

11 hours ago, Dots And Stripes said:

It seems like Michael is making a mistake using the same Janet again. She learns new things each time she is rebooted. Last time she learned to love and hate. A more aware good Janet seems likely to make the ruse more difficult for Michael.

I know! That's what makes the thought of another season so exciting. Now that the initial concept has been introduced, worked through, and trashed, how fun will it be to watch Eleanor try to figure out what Find Chidi means and why, with Michael working against her and Tahani, Jason and Chidi in the dark, prepared to repeat their old patterns. Throw in not-a-robot Janet as a kind of neutral moral fulcrum across which everyone's intentions are sweeping...wow. I have to rewatch.

Love that every loser tertiary or walk-on character on TV is named Todd. Poor Todds of the world. I'm sure most are very nice.

[tennisgurl]

So, I guess Hell truly is other people. Go figure.

[iMonrey]

One thing I wasn't clear on was whether Michael and Shawn were in charge of bad places or good places. Were all those architects we saw really architects of bad places? Or were they architects of good places, and Michael decided to design a "revolutionary" bad place instead? I'm guessing they were all "bad place" employees - that would explain how Shawn could call Bad Janet. But - that suggests there are unique and varied "bad neighborhoods" just as there are "good neighborhoods." Or do they design both?

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Even if Chidi's indecision was annoying, he still wasn't really a bad person. Tahani did good things for the wrong reason, and while I can see why she wouldn't be an elite good person she still wasn't truly bad. 

This is perhaps the one thing that irritates me about the premise of the show: that people who have devoted their lives to helping others and have improved the lives of countless people would still be sent to "the bad place" simply because their motivations weren't pure. 

But then again that's the same problem I have with most religious beliefs - that your beliefs are more important than your actions.

[withanaich]

20 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

One thing I wasn't clear on was whether Michael and Shawn were in charge of bad places or good places. Were all those architects we saw really architects of bad places? Or were they architects of good places, and Michael decided to design a "revolutionary" bad place instead? I'm guessing they were all "bad place" employees - that would explain how Shawn could call Bad Janet. But - that suggests there are unique and varied "bad neighborhoods" just as there are "good neighborhoods." Or do they design both?

I'm pretty sure they were just in charge of Bad Places. Michael's entire gambit was "I know we always torture them, but what if we got them to torture each other?" If they needed to steal a Good Janet, that implies that they have no authority over Good Places. We haven't seen an actual Good Place yet, nor have we seen any Good Place employees or constructs, with the exception of Good Janet. 

Edited January 20, 2017 by withanaich

[arc]

21 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

But then again that's the same problem I have with most religious beliefs - that your beliefs are more important than your actions.

To be fair, deontology--the ethical position that one's intentions are more important than the actions' outcomes themselves--exists even independently from religious beliefs. It's a genuinely fascinating argument. Though I think the show argues for a blended approach because while Chidi's intentions are very good, his rigid morals (telling boot colleague the boots were awful) and more generally his overall inaction in life also qualified him for the Bad Place.

[Texasmom1970]

6 hours ago, Miles said:

That was a really good twist and I have to confess, I did not see that coming.

I'm only somewhat sad that Micheal was behind it and is actually really mean. But it makes sense. Why would his retirement be eternal torment? In retrospect that statement seems like something designed to psychologically torment Elenor with guilt.

I'm also not a fan of memory wipes, since I've seen them used in very boring way a lot recently. But this show has been great so far, so I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.

If I had been Elenor I had at least written "This is the bad place! Find Chidi." It's not like she didn't have enough time for that part.

I agree with you about the note she should have said Michael is bad or something at least, find Chidi.

I was surprised by the twist. Won't know how I feel about it until we see where they go with it. I think it has potential to be really good or really bad.

Loved Jason using the word ethnicity wrong and Chidi having to correct him, for what he hopes is the last time! Also him and Janet trying to have sex for hours.

The other line Eleanor said that she might be into Tahini but that was for another time was great. 

[arc]

The execution of the twist was probably a bit like what it would have been like to watch Westworld without reading fan theories along the way.

[tennisgurl]

I have to say, I did see the twist coming. Or, I figured there would be some kind of twist where it turns out that this isn't really The Good Place. I just couldn't accept this as a form of heaven the way it was shown. There are too many flaws, and the rules for who does and does not get into it makes no sense, considering the characters who have we have seen. Chidi and Tahini are good people, but they don't make sense for the rules of The Good Place. This twist does explain a lot of plot holes, like why everything seems to be focused around these four people, why both Eleanor and Jason are here, and why this Good Place kind of sucks. But, I hoped it would turn out this was actually some kind of Purgatory, where people who weren't good enough for the Good Place yet, but had the potential to get there, had time to learn from their mistakes, and earn spots in The Good Place. I could get into that. This...I am in two ways. Like I said, its interesting and makes sense, but it sucks that basically everything we have learned and seen this whole season is basically bullshit. And, worst of all, Michael and Real Eleanor, who I really loved, are actually both evil and everything we know about them is a lie. And I have no clue where next season could possibly go.

Basically, this twist would work better as the twist at the end of an episode The Twilight Zone, instead of the end of a whole season that might not even get a second season. Actually, that was an episode of The Twilight Zone! "You thought this was heaven? Too bad sucker your in Hell! Muahahah". 

[LoneHaranguer]

7 hours ago, CofCinci said:

So Michael is a Bad Place resident too, right? Literally has a kid for a boss. Annoying coworker keeps asking which is the decaf.  His presentation is interrupted. His big plan fails....  He's in hell and doesn't know it.

Or did he, and his trial neighborhood was a temporary escape for himself?

3 hours ago, Big Mother said:

What I DON"T like, is the memory wipe. Ugh. I guess they needed a backdoor for Season 2.

Was the memory wipe entirely successful? She knew how to pronounce "Chidi" without any idea of what that word meant.

[Destiny007]

She was acting a bit different in the reset scene.  She seemed more calmer than she was the first time.  I wonder if there will be a twist that she remembers something about the first time.  Maybe not all of it, but something.

[vibeology]

1 hour ago, withanaich said:

I'm pretty sure they were just in charge of Bad Places. Michael's entire gambit was "I know we always torture them, but what if we got them to torture each other?" If they needed to steal a Good Janet, that implies that they have no authority over Good Places. We haven't seen an actual Good Place yet, nor have we seen any Good Place employees or constructs, with the exception of Good Janet. 

That was how I understood it, with the caveat that Mindy St. Clair's place is really a neutral place since that information did come from Good Janet. So things she has told us, like how the point system works, famous people who didn't make the Good Place Cut etc. are all true because Janet herself is Good and was not in on Michael's scheme.

It's such smart writing because they gave us Janet who we know we can trust and throughout the season she has been key to developing our understanding of the Good Place. She's been a major source of world building information and we know that even now with the reveal we can that info because of the source. If we didn't have that, if we couldn't trust anything we saw all season, then this twist would have been awful since we'd be starting from scratch with the mind wipe. But since we have a trusted base of knowledge to work from, I think the twist is very smart. It gives the audience a base of facts so when new scenarios come up next season (please renew this show!) we have trusted knowledge we can use to figure more things out.

I am still blown away. I said yesterday that this was one of the bravest things on TV and I stand by that completely. It's so much world building and detail packed into a sitcom and everything holds up, it's smart and funny and the relationships are so real in only 13 episodes. Wow!

[iMonrey]

I appreciated the ending because if the show doesn't get renewed there's at least a measure of closure, rather than an outright "to be continued." I'd say its chances of renewal are 50/50. Ratings aren't great, but it has good critical buzz and star power. 

It kills me that quality shows like this are in jeopardy while crap like Kevin Can Wait and Man with a Plan will probably be on the air for the next seven years.

[muessigkeit]

9 hours ago, Kromm said:

14 hours ago, Fiftyninth said:

I am just realizing we should seen this coming when Michael kicked that dog into the sun back in the first or second episode!

Actually you bringing that up makes me realize that was a flaw in the script.

I mean isn't that an incident that didn't happen in front of any of our four main characters?  So who was it "acted" for?

Nope, Tahani and Jason are both there to witness that incident. I really can't recall any scene in which we've seen Michael without any of the four main characters (before yesterday's episodes of course.)

[Traveller519]

8 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

The opening sequence of Eleanor being the absolute worst at the grocery store was hilarious. I guess I'm going to the bad place because now I kind of want to use my arm to sweep an entire row of potato chips into my shopping cart.

Loved that Jason retained ONE of Chidi's lessons so that he could justify Tahani and Chidi being bad too. Even when the kid in the back of the classroom seems like he's not paying attention, he might let one or two facts enter his brain!

The very opening shot is fantastic. Not only is the magazine Eleanor reaches for exactly what we were told "Top 25 Baby Plastic Surgery Fails" Along with all sorts of other things on babies "When is starting Baby Botox too late" but the magazine beside it was "Socialite Life" featuring Tahani on the cover with the subtitle "Not just Jamilah's sister" I loved that set up.

I really enjoyed the stuff through the Mindy St. Clair bit and the Neutral Zone (I wish they hadn't referred to it under official context as the "Medium Place" I liked that being Eleanor's idea. And the Jason and Janet trying to figure out sex was great. When Jason rips one of the diagrams off the mantle before running off... Fantastic. Mindy herself was good fun too.

I wan't as high on the Twist, but I can also see why it was necessary, if everyone's in the good place, where's the drama to follow in future context. I do hate that we'll have to view Michael through the mischievous lense now.

[SoothingDave]

Not sure what the Medium Place was all about.  I wish that worked into the resolution somehow (other than just being a hiding place.)

Why couldn't Jason and Janet figure out how to have sex?  Jason can't be that stupid.  Is it cause she's a robot? ("I'm not a robot.")  

[Traveller519]

I'm guessing the typical place on the female body one would have sex wasn't available for Janet, and maybe some other locations lacked normal function. We saw she really couldn't eat Cake at their wedding.

[withanaich]

Quote

Along with all sorts of other things on babies "When is starting Baby Botox too late" but the magazine beside it was "Socialite Life" featuring Tahani on the cover with the subtitle "Not just Jamilah's sister" I loved that set up.

Hahaha! I didn't catch that other magazine headline. I was too busy trying to read the one Eleanor picked up. This show definitely warrants a re-watch.