S01.E12: Mindy St. Clair / S01.E13: Michael's Gambit

[ElectricBoogaloo]

SEASON FINALE!

Quote

With the help of Chidi and Tahani, Michael faces his biggest challenge yet. Meanwhile, Eleanor, Jianyu and Janet are faced with a monumental decision.

 

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Eleanor and her friends contemplate their fates in the Good Place.

Edited January 18, 2017 by ElectricBoogaloo

[CofCinci]

Two episodes!  Set your VHS players accordingly.

S01.E12: 'Mindy St. Clair'

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Michael faces his greatest challenge with help from Chidi and Tahani. Meanwhile, Eleanor, Jianyu and Janet must make a monumental decision.

S01.E13: 'Michael's Gambit'

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Eleanor and her pals contemplate their fates in the Good Place in the Season 1 finale.

Hopefully this is a season finale and not the series finale....

 

SPOILER
 

Spoiler

Adam Scott returns.

 

Edited January 16, 2017 by CofCinci

[Lawgiver]

My BetaMax is ready to go!

[Wandering Snark]

Oh if only I could record to my Laser Disc...

But do watch for the special time so's ya don't miss it!

[J0nas3]

I...think my brain is broken.

 

That was incredible.

[Ms Blue Jay]

I could only record the audio on my cassette player.

Anyways.  WTF

[Aliconehead]

Holy Fork!!  Props to those that thought this could be the bad place. I thought it might be a medium place but I could not reconcile Chidi since he showed no signs of being anything other than good. But to do everything for 4 people, that's a lot of work. 

[MrWhyt]

this better get renewed

[Ms Blue Jay]

Also, "props" to those who I tried to defend Jason's moral aptitude to.  I can't defend it anymore.  But I still love him.

Edited January 20, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[secnarf]

Well, I really liked it until the end. I hate Groundhog Day with a fiery passion and this seems like it might be somewhat similar. I was also annoyed that Eleanor didn't leave herself a better note - "this is the Bad Place and Michael is playing you, Chidi, Tahani and Jianyu"?

I really appreciate how well thought-out this show is, though. I really enjoyed the first season. I also loved Michael's reaction to Eleanor figuring it out and actual fake Eleanor (new Eleanor) being upset that real Eleanor figured it out.

[shantown]

I honestly don't know if I loved it or hated it. It's a lot to process. I feel the need to watch the whole series again and see if there hinted at this more beforehand - were Michael's evil sneers really there or were they played up in those flashbacks, for example.

[ally862]

I did NOT see that coming!  I missed the first half but I loved what I did see.  Definitely have to rematch the whole thing.   I haven't been on the boards for this show much so I didn't realize people had theorized that. 

[enlightenedbum]

Great 13 episodes, not sure about the premise for the next 13, assuming NBC renews it.

[Mockingbird]

Well, fork. 

I actually yelled, "NO!" at least four times during the hour. I'm sad to lose Michael, ACTUAL Fake Eleanor, and Bambajan. I loved Michael, and the show's rewatch value just diminished for me with his whole endearing optimism and obsession with human things just being an act (though I'm sure this finale will increase the rewatch value for people looking for hints missed). I would have been happier with him being one of the beings tortured in this bad place, but the twist makes sense for the plot. And it does make sense that the four of them were all chosen to torture each other. 

I do trust Mike Schur, but I watched Once Upon a Time for a bit and have been burned about seven times too many by the memory wipe plot twist. It's frustrating to lose all these character arcs, but it does leave the show in an interesting place dramatically, even if it feels unsastifying to me. 

Edited January 20, 2017 by Mockingbird
You'd think I'd be able to spell Schur after watching all his shows...

[Rinaldo]

I loved this, and I'm so glad I stayed away from any speculation (of which I know there was a ton -- I had to step away altogether for a while), as the fun of this revelation would be much less if I'd seen it anticipated.

It's a lot of work for four people, but the architects have all of non-space and all eternity to do it in. I suppose Eleanor's note was under the pressure of having only an unpredictably few seconds to do it in.

I'm old enough that I'm mildly surprised that after "fork" etc. being forced on them (or maybe that was all part of the pretense?), everyone can say "sucked" uncensored. But that's just me.

And I'm grinning at the way the creators and writers were ahead of me after all -- e.g., when I complained last week that Tahani's motivation during life was just as bad as Eleanor's was recently. And I'd been privately thinking that much as I like Chidi, he doesn't seem to have done much.

Well done, The Good Place.

[Dots And Stripes]

I definitely picked up on Tahani being overly self-absorbed for a truly good person. I'm also not sure I buy that she was truly tortured. Sure she didn't like the rankings and wanted a soul mate, but she got to entertain and brag which made her happy.

The other thing I picked up on was Adam Scott being the rep for the bad place in the medium place video but no sign of Michael. I didn't think it was because Michael was really evil.

Definitely a lot to process and I'm not sure how I feel about it yet. I would like to see someone actually from the good place. I'd like to see how these people earn there way out of the bad place.

[Wandering Snark]

"Holy forking shirtballs."

Yeah that was a lot to absorb. I kinda don't like that we've "lost" Michael since he was the epicenter of a lot of entertainment in the show. But now we know why there is so many damned yogurt places I guess.

I never got too philosopical about the whole thing but the bumpy ride to a (hopeful) season (not show) ending was a little rough. Would have to see where they'll take us next on this 'ride'.

Bad Janet was awesome though. And 'normal' Janet really did fall in love with Jason "Ride or Die".

So much good stuff but I have yet to sort it all through.

I guess a rewatch is in order since we've gone to the other side of this Joe Schmo and are now in on the entire place being just for these four people. And I guess that hell really IS other people.

Edited January 20, 2017 by Wandering Snark

[shantown]

Wait, if Eleanor hadn't figured it out and they found 2 volunteers (or one volunteer, with Real Evil Eleanor) to go to the Bad Place... what would have happened? Just a different Bad Place neighborhood?

[Wandering Snark]

33 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I could only record the audio on my cassette player.

Well, I have my usual recordings for posterity on Minidiscs if you have any issues.

Edited January 20, 2017 by Wandering Snark

[swimmyfish]

I. . .did not enjoy that twist, to the extent that I don't know if I'd continue watching when/if the show returns. And this was my favorite show of the season -  I enjoyed spending time each week with good yet flawed people, and with a medium person who deserved to go to a medium place but was consistently working towards becoming a better person. And instead, I've been tortured this whole time because this show - which is not in any way responsible for the current political climate but still, it was one reliably bright spot over the past few increasingly terrible months - has all along known that there was going to be no hope for redemption? I genuinely feel betrayed. Fork you, Good Place.

[secnarf]

14 minutes ago, shantown said:

Wait, if Eleanor hadn't figured it out and they found 2 volunteers (or one volunteer, with Real Evil Eleanor) to go to the Bad Place... what would have happened? Just a different Bad Place neighborhood?

Nope, that's where Bambajan (sp?) comes in with his random obscure finding that allows them all to stay. None of them were ever going anywhere.

[mstar1125]

1 minute ago, swimmyfish said:

I. . .did not enjoy that twist, to the extent that I don't know if I'd continue watching when/if the show returns. And this was my favorite show of the season -  I enjoyed spending time each week with good yet flawed people, and with a medium person who deserved to go to a medium place but was consistently working towards becoming a better person. And instead, I've been tortured this whole time because this show - which is not in any way responsible for the current political climate but still, it was one reliably bright spot over the past few increasingly terrible months - has all along known that there was going to be no hope for redemption? I genuinely feel betrayed. Fork you, Good Place.

Totally agree. I feel let down somehow. I don't know how else they could have ended it, though, while allowing the show to continue into possible future seasons. This episode kind of gave them an out, as it works completely as a series finale in case the show doesn't get picked back up, but the memory wipe and reboot opens them to at least one more season.

But, where will it go from here?  I mean, where CAN it really go from here? Let's say they all figure it out quicker this time around. Then what? Sean gave Michael one more chance. If this time fails, do they just go to the "real" bad place? And what about the medium place - was that real or another construct that Michael invented as part of his ruse? Is Trevor real or another actor? What purpose did Mindy serve, and will she be back? So many questions.

 I think I'm saddest to lose Michael as a genuinely nice person. Perhaps there is another twist coming, and he is being played as well - by Sean perhaps? I have to be honest that I'm not sure I'm as invested in the characters or the story anymore after this turn of events. 

[shantown]

4 minutes ago, secnarf said:

Nope, that's where Bambajan (sp?) comes in with his random obscure finding that allows them all to stay. None of them were ever going anywhere.

Ahhh, I missed that in my bewilderment, thank you!

[tominboston]

WHAT THE FORK??? I did not like the ending after having become a huge fan of the show during the season. Now that they've blown up the whole premise of the Good Place and made Michael an evil manipulator rather than an endearingly confused bureaucrat, I don't know how I'll approach a hypothetical second season. I'll watch out of curiosity but the writers will have to be really good to get me back to the level of enthusiasm I had for the first twelve-and-a-half episodes.

[Mockingbird]

4 minutes ago, swimmyfish said:

I. . .did not enjoy that twist, to the extent that I don't know if I'd continue watching when/if the show returns. And this was my favorite show of the season -  I enjoyed spending time each week with good yet flawed people, and with a medium person who deserved to go to a medium place but was consistently working towards becoming a better person. And instead, I've been tortured this whole time because this show - which is not in any way responsible for the current political climate but still, it was one reliably bright spot over the past few increasingly terrible months - has all along known that there was going to be no hope for redemption? I genuinely feel betrayed. Fork you, Good Place.

I feel the same way. This is the one show I've been allowing myself in a rough time when I don't have much free time at all, and it made me happy. Maybe I've watched too many Mike Shur shows in which the characters are generally exactly who they appear to be, so Michael's hours of silliness actually being emotional manipulation feels a bit like... emotional manipulation. Cheering for Eleanor's improvement was futile as she was never going to actually be allowed to keep that growth. (And her sacrificing the medium place to keep Chidi out of the bad place was so much growth, I didn't actually know what they were going to do with her next.) I can acknowledge it's a clever twist, but it does feel like a betrayal. 

[J0nas3]

I'm intruiged by the thought of a second season. I like the idea of "Find Chidi." And I noticed the difference in Eleanor's apparel.

[swimmyfish]

2 minutes ago, mstar1125 said:

And what about the medium place - was that real or another construct that Michael invented as part of his ruse? Is Trevor real or another actor? What purpose did Mindy serve, and will she be back? So many questions.

 I think I'm saddest to lose Michael as a genuinely nice person. 

I believe the medium place was real - Michael mentioned in his flashback that he'd stolen a Janet from a good neighborhood, so I would imagine that everything she said/did could be trusted.

I agree at Michael! His delight and hope for humanity was maybe the most encouraging part of the show.

[bethy]

I liked the twist and totally did not see it coming, though the clues were certainly there. 

[JessDVD]

Did not see that coming, though of course once Eleanor said it, DUH OF COURSE. Evil Eleanor's look of disappointment was great.

I'm not big on a memory wipe let's do this whole thing all over again, but the writing is good enough that I'll give it a shot if it gets renewed. 

[pennben]

HOLY FORK!  That was amazing!  I think in a weird way, the only thing that would have been better than what we got, was if this was fully intended to be a one season show.  Regardless, I'm looking forward to next year.  I think early on, I realized that I didn't care what was really going on and wasn't hunting down clues here and there (and thus stayed off the boards when a lot of folks were trying to figure things out).  I was just really enjoying each episode.  I think it ended up being more fun that way, at least for me.

Now I'm giggling a bit remembering that Mike Schur sat down with one of the creators of LOST when he had this idea and discussed with him whether or not he could make it into a series.  Of course he would ask one of the guys from LOST given where he was heading!!!  Perhaps it was a revenge series for creators for everyone that was always looking for clues deep within an episode!

I cannot wait until next season.  At the end of the day, even if folks figure out the next season overall inconsistencies, in a way, it might really not matter one bit....it could be purgatory each season, resetting until the last season where we ultimately find out who Michael really is and who everyone else really is. 

The key to me was loving each episode this season (regardless of what 'really' was going on').  I'm hoping I feel the same next season, who knows, but here we go!!

Edited January 20, 2017 by pennben

[bethy]

I also appreciated that Mindy St. Clair was still wearing her 1980s power suit.

[Kip Hackman]

I thought that was amazing.

That being said, I don't see the point of a second season. Unfortunately.

[pennben]

6 minutes ago, bethy said:

I also appreciated that Mindy St. Clair was still wearing her 1980s power suit.

Ha!  That suit! I will neither confirm, nor deny that I ever wore something quite similar thereto.  Nor will I confirm/deny whether it was my 'go to' suit for interviews back in the day.  Hee!

[vibeology]

My mind is totally blown. This is one of the bravest things on TV in a long while. I am so looking forward to what they'll do next. I'm going to need to watch the whole series again but I'm pretty sure it all holds together and explains all the questions I've had so far. 

I don't even have words for all my feelings.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, shantown said:

I honestly don't know if I loved it or hated it. It's a lot to process. I feel the need to watch the whole series again and see if there hinted at this more beforehand - were Michael's evil sneers really there or were they played up in those flashbacks, for example.

I think they definitely hinted at it.  I know that at various times I was convinced that everyone there was in the "wrong" place, not just Eleanor and Jason.  And that included Michael when he read Chidi's novel.

I just thought everyone was there for self improvement.   Like a purgatory rather than the bad place.  Never occurred to me that it was the bad place.  And by the time this episode rolled around, everyone had become so supportive of each other that I kind of forgot about those suspicions and was shocked by the "Holy forking shirtballs." reveal.

In retrospect, what happens to retired heads of good neighborhoods should have been a huge red flag. Only the bad neighborhood would have come up with that.

[bethy]

5 minutes ago, pennben said:

  Nor will I confirm/deny whether it was my 'go to' suit for interviews back in the day.

I wish I could "love" this. :)

[EyewatchTV211]

I read an interview with Schur where he says season 2 will be completely different. So maybe they'll find a way to avoid the Groundhog Day thing. I enjoyed these two episodes and am eager for the show to come back (hopefully).

[Dots And Stripes]

5 minutes ago, vibeology said:

My mind is totally blown. This is one of the bravest things on TV in a long while. I am so looking forward to what they'll do next. I'm going to need to watch the whole series again but I'm pretty sure it all holds together and explains all the questions I've had so far. 

I don't even have words for all my feelings.

I agree this twist was bold. I was wondering how they would "save" the characters and I was afraid it would feel cheap.

I assume Janet has been honest and I think she explained that most people go to the bad place. A high bar would explain why these people would be tortured. Even if Chidi's indecision was annoying, he still wasn't really a bad person. Tahani did good things for the wrong reason, and while I can see why she wouldn't be an elite good person she still wasn't truly bad. Both she and Chidi are also probably self-centered for never considering that they might be part of the mistake, even if they did still have their correct identities. 

[scarynikki12]

Ted Danson gives great Evil Smile. 

I don't mind the twist. I would object to a similar twist each season but this worked. If Micheal and Shawn truly didn't know that Eleanor, Jason and Janet were in the Middle Place (they seemed to think they actually went to another Bad Place but who knows) then I would expect it may be a safe haven the next time they figure it all out. I would love to see them figure it out away from Michael, jump on the train en mass and stay with Mindy. She was a hoot. 

[pennben]

4 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

Ted Danson gives great Evil Smile.

Ted Danson was perfectly cast in this role for precisely that reason!

[Arynm]

Loved the twist! I should have guessed they were all in the bad place. I thought that Tahani was a little full of herself, but figured that the good outweighed the bad. I really hope there is a second season, I want to see where this goes.

[Conan Troutman]

I always thought it could be the bad place, but more Eleanor's personal bad place with full of really good, dull and boring people (in her view at the least), not this carefully orchestrated trap for the four of them. Loved how over the top the "I'll go! - No, I'll go!" game went and the whole "good place" was way beyond elaborate, those last twenty minutes were a pure riot.

I also thought we's get to see the bad place (the version view saw a couple of weeks ago, which now kinda doesn't exist) next season, but I guess Schur could still go that route if he wanted. Eleanor and the rest don't know that it's not real (yet), so still keeping my fingers crossed. 

[Dots And Stripes]

9 minutes ago, Conan Troutman said:

I always thought it could be the bad place, but more Eleanor's personal bad place with full of really good, dull and boring people (in her view at the least), not this carefully orchestrated trap for the four of them. Loved how over the top the "I'll go! - No, I'll go!" game went and the whole "good place" was way beyond elaborate, those last twenty minutes were a pure riot.

I also thought we's get to see the bad place (the version view saw a couple of weeks ago, which now kinda doesn't exist) next season, but I guess Schur could still go that route if he wanted. Eleanor and the rest don't know that it's not real (yet), so still keeping my fingers crossed. 

Are we sure it's not real? It sounds like the neighborhood concept was real and Michael's "Good Place" is one of a kind. To me that means there are other "bad places" out there, perhaps some as the show had previously described.

Edited January 20, 2017 by Dots And Stripes

[thuganomics85]

Well, fuck me!  I have no idea if this will be brilliant or horrible, but I have to give Mike Schur credit for going there.  They sure aren't playing it safe with this show!

I remember there had been talk about The Good Place actually being some kind of Bad Place instead, so that in itself wasn't shocking.  But the idea that this was all for just Eleanor, Chidi, Tahani, and Jason, and everyone else (but Janet) were plants was shocking, and the Michael reveal really floored me.  I had figured that; if this was the direction they were heading; Michael was an unwitting participate too.  But, nope!  He was the.... well, architect of the entire thing.  The way he flipped between "typical" Michael to the real Michael was scary.  I liked that in some ways, he still had a bit of the normal Michael tics and line delivery, but he was way more sinister and arrogant.  Ted Danson really nailed down that reveal.  He is the best.

I'm also wondering if the Medium Place and Mindy was all part of the act too.  Enjoyed seeing Maribeth Monroe as Mindy.

I did like how this explained a few things, like how Tahani's selfish reasons for her charities are factored in, and that is why she is being punished. 

I loved how this episode shows how much Eleanor as grown as a person, while Jason is still a selfish jackass (even if he's hilarious.)  Kristen Bell and the writing have really done a great job with changing her from the pilot, to where she is still somewhat of a jerk at times, but has clearly become less selfish and more giving as a person now.

A bit bummed that Real Eleanor is now a fake (ha!), although I enjoyed her outrage over her big moment getting ruined.  Hope we see her again, if the show comes back.

I'm guessing Trevor was an actor, too? Never saw him in any of the flashbacks with Michael and Shawn.

Bad Janet is only behind Regular Janet as the most awesome AI ever!

Screw it, I don't care how shallow it is, I am so shipping Eleanor/Tahani.  The chemistry is there.  Plus, the side gags alone would make it one of the best ever.  They would either need to have Kristen Bell on a stepladder or have her have to actually just jump on Jameela Jamil, for anything to happen.

Overall, loved this first season and curious to see how they'll pull off a second season.  It could easily go south, but I have enough faith in Mike Schur that I think he knows what he is doing.  At the very least, I think he and the show deserve to take that chance, and either crash spectacularly or go even bigger.  Either way, I'm glad I gave this show a go!

Edited January 20, 2017 by thuganomics85

[sjankis630]

Well I just got finished watching it and I liked it! It was definitely different than your normal fare.

Also the last scene somehow reminded me a little bit of old Scooby Doo and that is not a bad thing.

And Bad Janet ........ with all that ass!!!!

Am I right?

Edited January 20, 2017 by sjankis630

[scarynikki12]

Also I'm assuming that they can't curse as another form of torture. 

[Crs97]

I loved it and cannot wait for next season!  I did not expect the twist and am glad I wasn't spoiled.  Very clever, show!  I hope it can continue to surprise me.

[Dots And Stripes]

A small thing, but I liked how the flashback of Eleanor's childhood laid the foundation for her figuring out what was really happening. She may not have been an ambitious adult, but she was smart and resourceful.

[DrScottie]

I was a little suspicious when Real Eleanor (Vicki) introduced herself and mentioned how she learned English by watching Seinfeld. Yada, yada, yada was code for skipping over all the elements that made you look bad. 

1 hour ago, VMepicgrl said:

I read an interview with Schur where he says season 2 will be completely different. So maybe they'll find a way to avoid the Groundhog Day thing. I enjoyed these two episodes and am eager for the show to come back (hopefully).

I hope so too. As much as I love the movie, it's not great for an entire series. I liken it more to the STTNG episode: "Cause and Effect." They figure it out when Data leaves a short message (Commander Riker's three rank pips) that was the answer to avoiding the ship's destruction and loop backwards. 

It's a great show and I'd love to see another season. If not, it was a good way to end the show. 

ETA: Just rewatched the ending and the new neighborhood is filled with pizza places this time as opposed to frozen yogurt and Eleanor is in a different outfit and hair style too. 

Edited January 20, 2017 by DrScottie
Watching again and found some cool stuff.

[quangtran]

2 hours ago, Dots And Stripes said:

I definitely picked up on Tahani being overly self-absorbed for a truly good person.

This part didn't work for me.

Tahani had ill-intentions despite doing lots of good. Chidi accomplished nothing despite only ever having good intentions. I don't buy the idea that they are BOTH bad people.