Joy and Austin: This One Time At Family Camp

[FizzyPuff]

6 hours ago, Insert Username said:

It still astounds me that JimBob did not send all of his kids to trade schools and start a contruction company

Duh they don’t need to go to trade school, all they have to do is watch someone build a house and they can do it 🙄

[Churchhoney]

12 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I'm thinking it may be hard for a Gothard raised child to lose the Quiverfull mentality. Lets not forget the fear of God and the devil.

 

Apparently it's fairly easy, since the vast majority of Gothard-raised children have left that cult! ...

As I understand it, they get a small stream of newbies these days. But the overwhelming majority of those who were in have long since been out.....and many have dropped every Gothard "rule" and preaching they ever heard, it would seem from online testimonies....

And that's even true of some kids in the otherwise diehard families, like the Kellers, who reportedly have had to work like hell to keep their youngest sons from drifting away like some of their older kids have done. 

And I don't know that the Duggars or the Bateses can fully be counted when it comes to gauging the pull of Gothardism, really.

Because in both cases, the fact that their nutso beliefs got them TeeVee fame and some money have clearly played a role in the willingness of the kids to remain part of it all....

I think Austin probably scared himself during his rebel period and returned, embracing the thing wildly for that reason. But that kind of rebound effect isn't necessarily permanent, as far as I can tell. 

Speaking of Gothardism and its potential influence, I looked up their 990s (online through FY 2017) and they are so an organization in decline.....(throws confetti)....although there are certainly still people paying for their crap....

However, IBLP is spending its seed corn now. As of FY 2017, they still had about $60 million in assets -- down from what was reportedly well over $100 million not too many years earlier -- but they've been spending it down every year, and their actual revenue coming in has shrunk like crazy over the past decade. 

Their annual spending has significantly outstripped their actual annual revenues every year for a long time now. 

Annual contributions dropped from over a million in FY 2011-FY 2014 to well under $200,000 by FY 2017....so if support for the organization is anything to go by, they do not have much of a hold on people any more....

They do keep selling stuff, though. (or did in 2017, anyway,...) In FY 2017, they brought in $570,000 in seminar fees; $379,000 in "literature and tapes"; nearly $131,000 in homeschooling horrors; and nearly $1.2 million in "training center fees." For a total of $2.2 million in revenue for the year.....They spent $6.26 million, however. .... So, you know, outgo far outsripping income....

And the revenue is down from $3.8 million in FY 2016......And in FY 2011 through FY 2013, they were bringing in between $5-plus and $6-plus million every year..... Thankfully, "home education" has really dropped off -- It brought in over $700,000 in revenue in FY 2011......Nice to know that they're not selling that stuff any longer. And that the future generations of Duggars, Forsyths, etc., may not be "educated" with it unless their grandparents horded all the books they "taught" their kids with....

https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/display_990/366108515/2012_09_EO%2F36-6108515_990_201112

 

 

 

Edited March 19, 2020 by Churchhoney

[DangerousMinds]

12 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I'm thinking it may be hard for a Gothard raised child to lose the Quiverfull mentality. Lets not forget the fear of God and the devil.

With the exception of a pre-existing disorder like a couple of the Bates girls have, or something like hyperemesis gravidarum (Duchess Kate), I think for the most part each pregnancy is unique. And I know a handful of non-Fundy women who follow their desire for kids over medical advice.

Personally, I think 4 pregnancies and 4 children reach the outer limits and anything above 6 goes into an entirely different area. But these kids were raised to sacrifice themselves and their lives for God and the afterlife. When throwing in the joyfully available rule and young sex drives, its a recipe for a large family.

Austin appears to be a hard working young man with enough sense of self to stay relatively independent from the Duggars, but he hasn't done anything I've seen to indicate he's willing to go against his beliefs.

 

But he took JB’s house.

[GeeGolly]

1 hour ago, Churchhoney said:

Apparently it's fairly easy, since the vast majority of Gothard-raised children have left that cult! ...

As I understand it, they get a small stream of newbies these days. But the overwhelming majority of those who were in have long since been out.....and many have dropped every Gothard "rule" and preaching they ever heard, it would seem from online testimonies....

And that's even true of some kids in the otherwise diehard families, like the Kellers, who reportedly have had to work like hell to keep their youngest sons from drifting away like some of their older kids have done. 

And I don't know that the Duggars or the Bateses can fully be counted when it comes to gauging the pull of Gothardism, really.

Because in both cases, the fact that their nutso beliefs got them TeeVee fame and some money have clearly played a role in the willingness of the kids to remain part of it all....

I think Austin probably scared himself during his rebel period and returned, embracing the thing wildly for that reason. But that kind of rebound effect isn't necessarily permanent, as far as I can tell. 

Speaking of Gothardism and its potential influence, I looked up their 990s (online through FY 2017) and they are so an organization in decline.....(throws confetti)....although there are certainly still people paying for their crap....

However, IBLP is spending its seed corn now. As of FY 2017, they still had about $60 million in assets -- down from what was reportedly well over $100 million not too many years earlier -- but they've been spending it down every year, and their actual revenue coming in has shrunk like crazy over the past decade. 

Their annual spending has significantly outstripped their actual annual revenues every year for a long time now. 

Annual contributions dropped from over a million in FY 2011-FY 2014 to well under $200,000 by FY 2017....so if support for the organization is anything to go by, they do not have much of a hold on people any more....

They do keep selling stuff, though. (or did in 2017, anyway,...) In FY 2017, they brought in $570,000 in seminar fees; $379,000 in "literature and tapes"; nearly $131,000 in homeschooling horrors; and nearly $1.2 million in "training center fees." For a total of $2.2 million in revenue for the year.....They spent $6.26 million, however. .... So, you know, outgo far outsripping income....

And the revenue is down from $3.8 million in FY 2016......And in FY 2011 through FY 2013, they were bringing in between $5-plus and $6-plus million every year..... Thankfully, "home education" has really dropped off -- It brought in over $700,000 in revenue in FY 2011......Nice to know that they're not selling that stuff any longer. And that the future generations of Duggars, Forsyths, etc., won't be able to be "educated" with it unless their grandparents horded all the books they "taught" their kids with....

https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/display_990/366108515/2012_09_EO%2F36-6108515_990_201112

 

 

 

Well that's certainly hopeful.

[Churchhoney]

1 hour ago, GeeGolly said:

Well that's certainly hopeful.

Hope so.....I think those numbers hold promise for the total decline of Gothard/Quiverfull popularity.....

But....you know, famous last words and all that.

There's probably a good chance some new loopy guru will leap up with a lot of the same old suggestions, repackaged, and present himself as an "Instagram influencer" or something and get all the Duggarlings onto a new have-a-million-children bandwagon...... 😁

Here's hoping not, however. 

1 hour ago, DangerousMinds said:

But he took JB’s house.

That suggests to me that Austin's quite susceptible to wavering under economic and lifestyle-threatening pressures (You won't be able to afford hunting trips to the mountain West!)

I pin some hopes on this! Because as they approach the double-digit kid threshold, there will be economic and lifestyle pressure. 

Edited March 19, 2020 by Churchhoney

[ginger90]

With this announcement, I have to wonder what the status of the show is. Nothing linking to a PEOPLE exclusive, nothing but their own post. Just strange for this family.

[GeeGolly]

3 minutes ago, ginger90 said:

With this announcement, I have to wonder what the status of the show is. Nothing linking to a PEOPLE exclusive, nothing but their own post. Just strange for this family.

I had the same thoughts. You Tube here they come.

 

[Sew Sumi]

I'm pretty sure that TLC posted a video of some sort yesterday.

[Growsonwalls]

One thing to consider is that Joy and Austin might never leave Gothardism because it works FOR THEM. If your interests are just home repair and a big happy family then why leave a life that has brought fame via a TV show and also a source of income? (Remember for the Duggars, being who they are is also a JOB. Something drilled into them as kids -- no wacky religious beliefs, no TV show, no money.)

I also think Joy and Austin have the kind of personalities where the fundie life works for them. Both seem like pleasant, inert people who just want to live everyday life. Not the type to question things.

[DangerousMinds]

13 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

One thing to consider is that Joy and Austin might never leave Gothardism because it works FOR THEM. If your interests are just home repair and a big happy family then why leave a life that has brought fame via a TV show and also a source of income? (Remember for the Duggars, being who they are is also a JOB. Something drilled into them as kids -- no wacky religious beliefs, no TV show, no money.)

I also think Joy and Austin have the kind of personalities where the fundie life works for them. Both seem like pleasant, inert people who just want to live everyday life. Not the type to question things.

Unfortunately they also engage in actively trying to take legal rights away from others. 

[JoanArc]

6 hours ago, galaxychaser said:

Trade school costs $$$ and Jim Bob is too cheap. Free Duggar Academy it is.

Not to defend Jim Bob, but they did push doing apprenticeships, at least for the boys for a little while. It kind of dried up though and went nowhere. Probably because the boys are idiots.

[kokapetl]

14 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

Apparently it's fairly easy, since the vast majority of Gothard-raised children have left that cult! ...

As I understand it, they get a small stream of newbies these days. But the overwhelming majority of those who were in have long since been out.....and many have dropped every Gothard "rule" and preaching they ever heard, it would seem from online testimonies....

And that's even true of some kids in the otherwise diehard families, like the Kellers, who reportedly have had to work like hell to keep their youngest sons from drifting away like some of their older kids have done. 

And I don't know that the Duggars or the Bateses can fully be counted when it comes to gauging the pull of Gothardism, really.

Because in both cases, the fact that their nutso beliefs got them TeeVee fame and some money have clearly played a role in the willingness of the kids to remain part of it all....

I think Austin probably scared himself during his rebel period and returned, embracing the thing wildly for that reason. But that kind of rebound effect isn't necessarily permanent, as far as I can tell. 

Speaking of Gothardism and its potential influence, I looked up their 990s (online through FY 2017) and they are so an organization in decline.....(throws confetti)....although there are certainly still people paying for their crap....

However, IBLP is spending its seed corn now. As of FY 2017, they still had about $60 million in assets -- down from what was reportedly well over $100 million not too many years earlier -- but they've been spending it down every year, and their actual revenue coming in has shrunk like crazy over the past decade. 

Their annual spending has significantly outstripped their actual annual revenues every year for a long time now. 

Annual contributions dropped from over a million in FY 2011-FY 2014 to well under $200,000 by FY 2017....so if support for the organization is anything to go by, they do not have much of a hold on people any more....

They do keep selling stuff, though. (or did in 2017, anyway,...) In FY 2017, they brought in $570,000 in seminar fees; $379,000 in "literature and tapes"; nearly $131,000 in homeschooling horrors; and nearly $1.2 million in "training center fees." For a total of $2.2 million in revenue for the year.....They spent $6.26 million, however. .... So, you know, outgo far outsripping income....

And the revenue is down from $3.8 million in FY 2016......And in FY 2011 through FY 2013, they were bringing in between $5-plus and $6-plus million every year..... Thankfully, "home education" has really dropped off -- It brought in over $700,000 in revenue in FY 2011......Nice to know that they're not selling that stuff any longer. And that the future generations of Duggars, Forsyths, etc., may not be "educated" with it unless their grandparents horded all the books they "taught" their kids with....

https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/display_990/366108515/2012_09_EO%2F36-6108515_990_201112

I’ve heard there was a huge gulf between how the voluntarily paying parents were treated and the literature they were given, and how the re-education camp children, who had no choice, were treated and the literature they were given.

Edited March 20, 2020 by kokapetl

[Churchhoney]

11 minutes ago, kokapetl said:

I’ve heard there was a huge gulf between how the voluntarily paying parents were treated and the literature they were given, and how the re-education camp children, who had no choice, were treated and the literature they were given.

Yeah, I've heard that, too. The re-education institutions the Gothardites teamed up with some state governments to run were hellish by every account I've ever seen. Gothard and his crew seem to be most devoted to a "godly in-group" vs. "vile untouchables" worldview. 

[Nysha]

19 hours ago, PikaScrewChu said:

That being said, is there anyone who has JRod levels of hustle in this family????

I don't think that any of the Duggar kids have JimBob's level of hustle. 

[galaxychaser]

Jeremy but he is not a Duggar. 

[PikaScrewChu]

17 hours ago, ginger90 said:

With this announcement, I have to wonder what the status of the show is. Nothing linking to a PEOPLE exclusive, nothing but their own post. Just strange for this family.

I haven't checked but I'm assuming that TLC has halted production on a lot of their TV shows due to COVID-19. 

This may be the end of the Duggars. Hmmmm...

[Zella]

1 hour ago, galaxychaser said:

Jeremy but he is not a Duggar. 

Jeremy doesn't have hustle, though. He seems quite averse to real work. I'm still floored by how little he managed to be at his church where he was "pastor." Jeremy strikes me as someone with lots of ambition but no actual drive to make it happen if it doesn't involve kissing a geriatric man's ass or posing on Instagram. 

[Churchhoney]

42 minutes ago, Zella said:

Jeremy doesn't have hustle, though. He seems quite averse to real work. I'm still floored by how little he managed to be at his church where he was "pastor." Jeremy strikes me as someone with lots of ambition but no actual drive to make it happen if it doesn't involve kissing a geriatric man's ass or posing on Instagram. 

He's got sucking-up hustle, I think. .... Pretty much zero working hustle or studying-your-pursuits-whatever-they-be-to-improve-your-skills hustle, though.....

I want to think that you need at least some of the working-and-improving hustle, too, even if you're a dedicated and successful suck-up (as he clearly is).....But I must say that his levels of success at the moment are making me wonder.....

An instinct to kiss the right asses and a massive drive to do it may be enough for a fair amount of success of some kinds.....Although I do wonder where they'd be financially if Jingle's maiden name weren't bringing in both cash and a good supply of the right asses to kiss. It consoles me to think that, without that, Jer's suck-up hustle might not be getting him very far! 

Edited March 20, 2020 by Churchhoney

[Fostersmom]

23 hours ago, galaxychaser said:

Trade school costs $$$ and Jim Bob is too cheap. Free Duggar Academy it is.

Not necessarily money, but it does take at least a little bit of drive and eduction. My nephew is a senior in high school and has been getting certified in HVAC this year. He's part of a class at a local private college (I still don't know how the private liberal arts college ended up with this program since there's also a community college and a technical school both with in 10-20 minutes in the same tiny county.), but he did have to take a few academic classes at the high school each morning before he went to HVAC. Most areas have tech or trade programs, but given the "education" levels of the Duggars, I doubt the majority of the kids, oddly enough especially the younger ones Michelle didn't teach, have the basic educational background to even make it through a month. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if the kids from Joy on down are functionally literate at best. We joke about the Wisdom Books and perpendicular, but at least Michelle was actively involved. I doubt the younger ones who were "supervised" by Jessa and god knows who now, have ever learned much of anything. 

[Ljohnson1987]

I bet they'll name her Hope or Faith, or use those for the middle name. 

[Minivanessa]

3 minutes ago, Fostersmom said:

Not necessarily money, but it does take at least a little bit of drive and eduction.. . .Most areas have tech or trade programs, but given the "education" levels of the Duggars, I doubt the majority of the kids, oddly enough especially the younger ones Michelle didn't teach, have the basic educational background to even make it through a month. . .  I doubt the younger ones who were "supervised" by Jessa and god knows who now, have ever learned much of anything. 

Those are good points! It also takes the discipline to stick to a schedule of classes, workshops, etc. I don't think the Duggarlings had a chance to develop that.

As some of their spouses mentioned on that marriage retreat episode, the Duggars didn't grow up with any kind of regular daily schedules. IMO that suited JB fine; he could round up the kids to make special appearances whenever that worked for him. This is the guy who BRAGGED that they operate on "Duggar time." 

I doubt that JB ever worked a job that required him to keep regular hours. He's a wheeler-dealer, buying low and selling high, whether it's real estate or vehicles. I bet that he always had hired help to keep any necessary offices open at stated hours, specifically a used car lot. IMO Josh exemplified the arrogance and indolence with which JB and Meech reared their kids. Especially the boys; we know that the daughters were assigned household "jurisdictions" to take the load off Michelle and keep her rested and joyfully available to breed. 

It also occurred to me that no way in hell JB would go into a results-oriented business like a construction company. That's a business where you have to work with customers to meet THEIR needs and requirements, and produce an acceptable result within a schedule and a budget. 

[Zella]

4 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

Those are good points! It also takes the discipline to stick to a schedule of classes, workshops, etc. I don't think the Duggarlings had a chance to develop that.

As some of their spouses mentioned on that marriage retreat episode, the Duggars didn't grow up with any kind of regular daily schedules. IMO that suited JB fine; he could round up the kids to make special appearances whenever that worked for him. This is the guy who BRAGGED that they operate on "Duggar time." 

I doubt that JB ever worked a job that required him to keep regular hours. He's a wheeler-dealer, buying low and selling high, whether it's real estate or vehicles. I bet that he always had hired help to keep any necessary offices open at stated hours, specifically a used car lot. IMO Josh exemplified the arrogance and indolence with which JB and Meech reared their kids. Especially the boys; we know that the daughters were assigned household "jurisdictions" to take the load off Michelle and keep her rested and joyfully available to breed. 

It also occurred to me that no way in hell JB would go into a results-oriented business like a construction company. That's a business where you have to work with customers to meet THEIR needs and requirements, and produce an acceptable result within a schedule and a budget. 

If I'm not mistaken there's an old news article from the state newspaper, the Democrat-Gazette, from his failed Senate run where it mentions that JB is able to stay home more than usual because of his real estate career. I'd never thought of it before within that context, but yes I bet you're right that JB never did really have to adhere to a normal schedule in his working life. 

I work part-time but also run my own business, and I do like the flexible scheduling that comes with it. But it is something I was only ever able to do after putting in quite a bit of time with the usual 9 to 5 drag. I also was traumatized into being punctual by my dad 🤣 , so the flexible scheduling still makes me pretty type-A about schedules. I could easily see that changing if I never had that experience, though. 

[Churchhoney]

33 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

 

As some of their spouses mentioned on that marriage retreat episode, the Duggars didn't grow up with any kind of regular daily schedules. IMO that suited JB fine; he could round up the kids to make special appearances whenever that worked for him. This is the guy who BRAGGED that they operate on "Duggar time." 

 

Good point. Definitely JB's preferred lifestyle. 

Randomness is also a major tool of the manipulative power-trip kind of control freaks, in my experience. ....

When there's no structure or schedule, it's much easier to keep people totally off balance and to gaslight them. When nobody knows what to expect, they're on edge all the time and the person in charge can totally use that to their own advantage.

Plus, as JB exhibited, it's a joy to the autocrat in the venue without a schedule to be able to randomly yell into the PA system "Come down here now!" because that always comes as a nervous-making shock and interruption to whatever everybody's doing. And that's a great thrill for those who cherish pushing people around. 

 

[Scarlett45]

12 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

Good point. Definitely JB's preferred lifestyle. 

Randomness is also a major tool of the manipulative power-trip kind of control freaks, in my experience. ....

When there's no structure or schedule, it's much easier to keep people totally off balance and to gaslight them. When nobody knows what to expect, they're on edge all the time and the person in charge can totally use that to their own advantage.

Plus, as JB exhibited, it's a joy to the autocrat in the venue without a schedule to be able to randomly yell into the PA system "Come down here now!" because that always comes as a nervous-making shock and interruption to whatever everybody's doing. And that's a great thrill for those who cherish pushing people around. 

 

Which is very interesting to me, because most large families I have come across are VERY scheduled and organized to keep chaos down. 
 

I had to explain this to a friend of mine who married into a large family (she’s from a small nuclear family like me).

“When you are a family of 6 you cannot ask everyone

‘what time do you want to eat breakfast?’ Because you’ll never settle on a time. You have to say-

‘Breakfast is at 8am’ and if people want to eat breakfast they will be there at 8am.”

When you grow up in a family of 2 or 3 it’s much more natural to ask “what time do you want to eat breakfast?” decide, and do it. 

So many of the Duggars act like they grew up in households of 2 or 3 people but without the work ethic. Only children for better or worse tend to be industrious because if we didn’t do xyz chore who could we blame? Our imaginary friend????? Our parents would have our hides because there was no one else to distract them from the things we didn’t do. I don’t see any type of work ethic (domestic or otherwise) in any of the Duggars. 

[GeeGolly]

5 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Which is very interesting to me, because most large families I have come across are VERY scheduled and organized to keep chaos down. 
 

I had to explain this to a friend of mine who married into a large family (she’s from a small nuclear family like me).

“When you are a family of 6 you cannot ask everyone

‘what time do you want to eat breakfast?’ Because you’ll never settle on a time. You have to say-

‘Breakfast is at 8am’ and if people want to eat breakfast they will be there at 8am.”

When you grow up in a family of 2 or 3 it’s much more natural to ask “what time do you want to eat breakfast?” decide, and do it. 

So many of the Duggars act like they grew up in households of 2 or 3 people but without the work ethic. Only children for better or worse tend to be industrious because if we didn’t do xyz chore who could we blame? Our imaginary friend????? Our parents would have our hides because there was no one else to distract them from the things we didn’t do. I don’t see any type of work ethic (domestic or otherwise) in any of the Duggars. 

I'll go you one further with the Duggars and eating. I don't even think they plan to plan - they just ate when they ate. I'm guessing Michelle just randomly said, at any given moment, "Okay girls, please go make lunch".

[Temperance]

Joy and Austin seem to make fundamentalism look good and that makes them dangerous. So far the reactions across the internet seem to be mostly positive and that's even from the snarkers at places like FJ.

Austin said in the video before the announcement that he's a commercial contractor, but he doesn't have license. They got the house from her parents. They're still deeply connected to both sets of fundie parents. Like a lot of of fundie parents, they lack boundaries, which may be why Jill read the book on boundaries. They show no signs of independent thinking.

Even if they stopped having kids before they reach double digits, this daughter could very well end up a sister mom. Look at Sarah Maxwell. Her parents only had eight kids and she has only five younger siblings, but she ended up doing a lot of sister-momming.

I see no signs that Joy and Austin are any less fundie than JB and Michelle. 

47 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

Good point. Definitely JB's preferred lifestyle. 

Randomness is also a major tool of the manipulative power-trip kind of control freaks, in my experience. ....

When there's no structure or schedule, it's much easier to keep people totally off balance and to gaslight them. When nobody knows what to expect, they're on edge all the time and the person in charge can totally use that to their own advantage.

Plus, as JB exhibited, it's a joy to the autocrat in the venue without a schedule to be able to randomly yell into the PA system "Come down here now!" because that always comes as a nervous-making shock and interruption to whatever everybody's doing. And that's a great thrill for those who cherish pushing people around. 

But Steve and Teri prove that scheduling is easily just as effecitve or more effective way to manipulate, control people, etc. I agree with @Scarlett45; most fundies I know are more organized than chaotic. 

Edited March 20, 2020 by Temperance

[Churchhoney]

32 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Which is very interesting to me, because most large families I have come across are VERY scheduled and organized to keep chaos down. 
 

 

Exactly. The Duggars aren't at all representative of the large families I've known either.

They are representative of quite a few mean-ass control-freak psychological-abuse-type households, though....In this randomness as in some other things. 

[Churchhoney]

1 hour ago, Temperance said:

 

But Steve and Teri prove that scheduling is easily just as effecitve or more effective way to manipulate, control people, etc. I agree with @Scarlett45; most fundies I know are more organized than chaotic. 

I didn't say scheduling doesn't work for control. I only said that chaos is something that works and is often used for mean-spirited control.......Obviously hyper-drive scheduling does work. But so does randomness of timing........I have lived this and have seen other people live it, so I know that it's true and I know how it works on people and why, as I explained.

.In addition, though, there are many ways other than having no schedule that control freaks use randomness to manipulate. Such as pretending that all their rules are ironclad and then suddenly randomly announcing that, today, people have broken rule x, when they've never mentioned rule x before, ever. I wouldn't in the least put it past Steve Maxwell to pull that kind of trick, for example. Especially on his wife. I'll bet Teri's heard about how she's broken a ton of Steve's rules that she never heard of before she supposedly broke them! That's randomness of another kind and I'd shocked if it were proven that Steve never uses it. 

 

On Joy and Austin -- I'm not going by how fundie they look. I don't think we have any real way to know how fundie they look, frankly. Seems to me we have little evidence, period, and that what we do have points in both directions, to some degree. 

And I depart completely from your assessment that they make fundie look good! I think they make it look horrible. Austin's sexism and Joy's submission to it absolutely sicken me. And while I think their work ethic looks better than those of most of the rest of the Duggar clan, I think Austin's fundie-ish side comes out big time -- and in a very bad way -- when he (probably) evades all regulations and standards in his work. That's fundie as hell to me, and, to me, it makes him a person who's a highly irresponsible to society -- for a religion-related reason......Not a good look or anything that makes fundie-ism look good for society or for its practitioners at all, in my opinion. 

I was arguing against the prediction that they'll surely get into the mid-double-digit kid area based on one thing -- as I repeatedly said. All I argued was that I think they will find the economic and lifestyle-related changes that come as they approach that very high number to be more than at least one of them -- my bet is Austin -- will want to put up with.....And that that is what I think will likely stop them before they get to the really high numbers..........

 I never said that they hadn't yet faced any "realities." I'm well aware that they've had a stillbirth and that that's a difficult reality.

But here in the third-and-rising-to-the fourth decade of the 21st century, given their economic and family situations. their earning potential, and so on? I don't think they really have a clue yet how economics, the lifestyle they'll be able to afford as more and more kids come, and just a day-to-day overcrowded living situation will really impact them on a daily basis, especially Austin, who comes from a small family.

That kind of discomfort is enough to have made a lot of people change their minds about "we'll have as many children as God gives us."

And they inherited this religion from their parents! So, unlike their parents, they can throw all or some of it overboard without feeling like idiots if they find it just too damn inconvenient....That's also something that's allowed a lot of second-generation cult-y people to walk or to bend the rules. And I don't see any evidence that it surely could not happen here. 

Edited March 20, 2020 by Churchhoney

[crazy8s]

I agree both the strict structure and lack there of are forms of control.

I can't see joy and austin being total control freaks yet.

but given both sets of parents, if the TLC money ends, and if they have a bunch of kids maybe.

I think the Duggars would still be strict structure if not for the TLC money, filming schedule, free gifts, free travel etc

[GeeGolly]

What's up with the orange collar? Shock collar?

 

[BitterApple]

I wonder if they have an electric fence? I don't think their yard is enclosed.

[Ijustwantsomechips]

It looks like one of those collars that can shock or vibrate to stop nuisance barking 

[Growsonwalls]

Here's the thing. Fundie-ism (like all extreme religious sects) works for SOME PEOPLE. Austin and Joy might be that small subset where it works. I know some ultra-Orthodox/Hasidic Jews where they honestly cannot imagine a different way of life. They think the rest of the world is crazy for not living exactly like them. Others really struggled and left the community or modified their lifestyle. 

As for the dog collar it looks more like a bow that matches Gideon's seat. 

[Temperance]

According to AustinandJoy (their joint Instagram) that collar is for the electric fence. 

[drafan]

22 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I'll go you one further with the Duggars and eating. I don't even think they plan to plan - they just ate when they ate. I'm guessing Michelle just randomly said, at any given moment, "Okay girls, please go make lunch".

I even doubt this. I think they randomly grabbed a bowl whenever the spirit moved them and threw iceberg bagged lettuce in it and then drowned it in cheap ranch dressing. I honestly think I saw this back when I watched the show.

[Growsonwalls]

18 minutes ago, DangerousMinds said:

To my knowledge,  Hasidic Jews do not also make a concerted effort to force others to conform to their rules or try to legally take rights away from others. Massive difference.

Uh ... yes they do. Not in the U.S. but in Israel their "modesty laws" has led to some tourists having stones thrown at them.

[PikaScrewChu]

It's all just a wait and see game with this bunch. Who continues to play this like it is Pokemon? Who finally gives in? We won't know for awhile. 

All we know for sure is that JB and Meech aren't going to be around forever. Neither will the TLC money. And if most of them think that they will get the same level of support from their parents that Smuggar and his family has, they all better think twice. I fully expect the TTH to go to Smugs and Anna, even if they are surpassed by JoKen and the Forsyths in number of children.

Another thing I fully expect. A full out fight among the 19 children once JB and Michelle pass away over who gets what. Those kids were played against each other big time. It is going to be one ugly fight. 

[GeeGolly]

I'm not sure Joy has figured out yet that her beliefs could interfere with someone else's rights. It seems to me Joy lives in her own little world, going through life day by day. I have no idea if Austin gets it or not.

[galaxychaser]

4 hours ago, PikaScrewChu said:

It's all just a wait and see game with this bunch. Who continues to play this like it is Pokemon? Who finally gives in? We won't know for awhile. 

All we know for sure is that JB and Meech aren't going to be around forever. Neither will the TLC money. And if most of them think that they will get the same level of support from their parents that Smuggar and his family has, they all better think twice. I fully expect the TTH to go to Smugs and Anna, even if they are surpassed by JoKen and the Forsyths in number of children.

Another thing I fully expect. A full out fight among the 19 children once JB and Michelle pass away over who gets what. Those kids were played against each other big time. It is going to be one ugly fight. 

Yep. Once Lolli and pops die it will get ugly quick. I agree Josh will probably get the bulk of the $.

[Sew Sumi]

The money (and much of the property) is all tied up in a trust. I'm sure the trust delegates beneficiaries. That (and the tax breaks) are why one sets up a trust in the first place.

I wonder if Boob has seen his lawyer and changed things to disown Jill?

Edited March 21, 2020 by Sew Sumi

[Westiepeach]

1 minute ago, Sew Sumi said:

The money +and much of the property) is all tied up in a trust. I'm sure the trust delegates beneficiaries. That (,and the tax breaks) are why one sets up a trust in the first place.

I wonder if Boob has seen his lawyer and changed things to disown Jill?

If he hasn't by now, he certainly will, after reading this post.

[GeeGolly]

5 minutes ago, galaxychaser said:

Yep. Once Lolli and pops die it will get ugly quick. I agree Josh will probably get the bulk of the $.

I can see JB & M doing the opposite as well. Paying Josh back for the "sin in the camp", the attempted affairs, shutting down 19 and Counting. Letting Josh fend for himself when it no longer impacts JB & M.

 

[DangerousMinds]

4 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I'm not sure Joy has figured out yet that her beliefs could interfere with someone else's rights. It seems to me Joy lives in her own little world, going through life day by day. I have no idea if Austin gets it or not.

When they show up in DC at right to “life” rallies, I think they are all aware that they are trying to legally take women’s rights away.

and didn’t Joy have some kind of DC “internship” not long before she got married? She must know exactly what those politicians want to do.

Edited March 22, 2020 by DangerousMinds

[Temperance]

2 hours ago, DangerousMinds said:

When they show up in DC at right to “life” rallies, I think they are all aware that they are trying to legally take women’s rights away.

and didn’t Joy have some kind of DC “internship” not long before she got married? She must know exactly what those politicians want to do.

My memory is it was the Arkansas state house and the internship was a week or a or something. 

[Sew Sumi]

3 minutes ago, Temperance said:

My memory is it was the Arkansas state house and the internship was a week or a or something. 

Yeah, she went with Jed. It might not even have been a week, just a couple days.

[ozziemom]

Just now, Sew Sumi said:

Yeah, she went with Jed. It might not even have been a week, just a couple days.

Probably as his accountability partner not because she had any interest in politics. Didn’t they “work” as pages for some Arkansas guy in DC too? Like for an afternoon?

[Sew Sumi]

I think that's what they ultimately did in Little Rock.

[cmr2014]

On 3/20/2020 at 2:25 PM, GeeGolly said:

I'll go you one further with the Duggars and eating. I don't even think they plan to plan - they just ate when they ate. I'm guessing Michelle just randomly said, at any given moment, "Okay girls, please go make lunch".

I don't think they even do that. I don't think they've had meals in that house since the days of "Love Offerings" and Tater Tot Casserole. I think people just grab food and eat whatever and whenever they want.

[crazy8s]

on the topic of Duggars and eating

my local news showed an Aldis today where the shelves were almost completely bare.

the only items they had - about 20 loaves of Hillbilly bread and those frozen stouffers lasagna things. I thought "oh they still have a duggar meal!" 🤣

Edited March 22, 2020 by crazy8s

[Churchhoney]

On 3/21/2020 at 10:20 PM, DangerousMinds said:

When they show up in DC at right to “life” rallies, I think they are all aware that they are trying to legally take women’s rights away.

and didn’t Joy have some kind of DC “internship” not long before she got married? She must know exactly what those politicians want to do.

I think it may have been an Arkansas statehouse internship? And she was Jed!"s accountability partner mostly, probably. But whichever it was, yep -- I agree that pretty much anybody would have gotten the picture from that....especially when they'd been attending right-to-life events of many kinds since birth, approximately.... ...

Plus, there's Joy's rumored rebellion against their beliefs that also took place in the couple years or so before her marriage....So even though she has the reputation of being a dim bulb (I don't myself have any feeling at all about how bright she is or isn't...), she's clearly given something about their beliefs some level of independent thought, for a while, at least. Before Joe the Trained God Botherer pulled her back from whatever brink of independent thought she was on, of course....

I mean, they're all likely to believe that they're taking away something others claim as a right, but that's actually a murder and an abomination. And that what they're really doing is simply demanding that things be set right -- in the way God planned.....

But I've known pretty young kids who've gone to right-to-life marches who know that they're definitely telling some other person that they absolutely must not do something that they want to do.......And if that's not the definition of taking away something another person thinks of as a right, I don't  know what is.....

If you're protesting it, it's not a right to you. But it's still something that somebody else wants to do and believes they should be able to do, and you're saying NO, the law must prevent you from doing that. 

 

 

 

Edited March 23, 2020 by Churchhoney