Jill, Derick & the Kids: Moving On!!

[tabloidlover]

Haven’t we seen RFP drinking beer?  Pretty sure Jinger wouldn’t object

[Ijustwantsomechips]

Just now, tabloidlover said:

Haven’t we seen RFP drinking beer?  Pretty sure Jinger wouldn’t object

Something tells me he doesn’t want his buddy Johnny Mac (thanks to whomever came up with that) to see him doing so.  His brown nosery is in another dimension right now. 

[auntieminem]

2 hours ago, Suzn said:

I'd "like" this a thousand times if I could.  Jill is getting lots of praise for the changes we can see, but there is absolutely nothing to indicate that she and Derick have changed any of their odious bigoted beliefs.  I would need them to say definitively that they were wrong and are sorry for their previous ugly beliefs.

Realistically, I think it is rare that core beliefs change.  Some people evolve slowly and slightly modify their attitudes, but I doubt that many people make a dramatic change of beliefs, whatever they may be.

I don't believe this.  I agree it is hard for people to change and evolve away from long standing and deeply ingrained beliefs but it does happen all the time. I am a social worker and if it was so rare or impossible I could never have spent 30+ years in a career that was all about change and helping people make changes and better decisions. Of course there are many people who will never change their thinking or core beliefs but there are even more who will. It starts with an inkling of questioning.  I cannot speak to if Jill and Derick are capable or in that process but it seems that they are doing some questioning.  They both have had to do some questioning because even as a child Jill wanted to be a missionary (or maybe someone told her that was what she wanted) and Derick did as well but we all saw how that turned out. I imagine that really messed with her mind in particular, God called her to missions yet she was afraid and miserable. As well as when Josh molestation story came out, it was clear when she and Jessa were made to do that interview to down play the incident, that Jill was broken while Jessa spoke the family line, no big deal. I know she can be a bit goofy and annoying but she has already had her cozy conservative  God fearing world shaken up, there has to be questioning going on. So I am hopeful that as Jill continues to be exposed to people and things outside of her cloistered family teachings it will make her question even more things.  Even Derick saying he wants to go into practice to help people who do not have access to justice. Now those are just nice words to him but if in fact he does actually go in that direction he will be exposed to lots of people and situations that will challenge his uglier beliefs. It doesn't mean he will change but it does mean he will have to make a decision to question and change or not.  

[doodlebug]

37 minutes ago, auntieminem said:

I don't believe this.  I agree it is hard for people to change and evolve away from long standing and deeply ingrained beliefs but it does happen all the time. I am a social worker and if it was so rare or impossible I could never have spent 30+ years in a career that was all about change and helping people make changes and better decisions. Of course there are many people who will never change their thinking or core beliefs but there are even more who will. It starts with an inkling of questioning.  I cannot speak to if Jill and Derick are capable or in that process but it seems that they are doing some questioning.  They both have had to do some questioning because even as a child Jill wanted to be a missionary (or maybe someone told her that was what she wanted) and Derick did as well but we all saw how that turned out. I imagine that really messed with her mind in particular, God called her to missions yet she was afraid and miserable. As well as when Josh molestation story came out, it was clear when she and Jessa were made to do that interview to down play the incident, that Jill was broken while Jessa spoke the family line, no big deal. I know she can be a bit goofy and annoying but she has already had her cozy conservative  God fearing world shaken up, there has to be questioning going on. So I am hopeful that as Jill continues to be exposed to people and things outside of her cloistered family teachings it will make her question even more things.  Even Derick saying he wants to go into practice to help people who do not have access to justice. Now those are just nice words to him but if in fact he does actually go in that direction he will be exposed to lots of people and situations that will challenge his uglier beliefs. It doesn't mean he will change but it does mean he will have to make a decision to question and change or not.  

I'm with you, people can and do change all the time.  People quit smoking, they stop using drugs.  They stop cheating on their spouses.  

If deeply ingrained beliefs didn't change over time, there would be no progress or evolution of humanity.  Yes, sometimes it takes a long time, even generations, but it happens.  And it has to start somewhere.

I am 63 years old. I was born at a time when schools were segregated, interracial marriage was illegal, open discrimination based on race was a part of life and rarely criticized.  People could go to war at 18 but couldn't vote until 21.  There was nothing available for birth control except condoms and rhythm and spermicide.  Women rarely worked outside the home and you virtually never saw a female doctor or lawyer or mechanic or truck driver.  No one had ever orbited the earth, let alone gone to the moon. I remember being shocked when our neighbor's daughter got a divorce and moved back in with her parents with her 2 young kids.  Being divorced was shocking!  Scandalous!  Not done in good families!  We used to see TV shows and films where getting really drunk and driving recklessly was seen as funny, a source of humor.  When Lucy Ricardo, America's favorite redhead, got out of line, her husband, Ricky, put her across his knee and spanked her.  And people laughed.

Times change, too slowly sometimes, but it is people who change them.

Edited September 16, 2020 by doodlebug

[lascuba]

1 minute ago, doodlebug said:

I'm with you, people can and do change all the time.  People quit smoking, they stop using drugs.  They stop cheating on their spouses.  

If deeply ingrained beliefs didn't change over time, there would be no progress or evolution of humanity.  Yes, sometimes it takes a long time, even generations, but it happens.  And it has to start somewhere.

I am 63 years old. I was born at a time when schools were segregated, interracial marriage was illegal, open discrimination based on race was a part of life and rarely criticized.  People could go to war at 18 but couldn't vote until 21.  There was nothing available for birth control except condoms and rhythm and spermicide.  Women rarely worked outside the home and you virtually never saw a female doctor or lawyer or mechanic or truck driver.  No one had ever orbited the earth, let alone gone to the moon.

Times change, too slowly sometimes, but it is people who change them.

That's the key, though. Generationally, yes, of course people change. Individually? Far less likely, not their beliefs about people and the world. They can change individual behaviors, but a bigoted piece of shit isn't going to change other than maybe be less vocal about it when society forces her to.

[GeeGolly]

I always believe change is possible, but at this point I don't think Jill & Derick are questioning their conservative 'Christian' beliefs, which is what they use to defend their judgement of others. If they're not questioning it on their own, it would most likely take a significant event to have them questioning their beliefs or many little events over a period of time. But they have many folks, other than the Duggars, confirming/validating their beliefs.

In Derick's mind and likely Jill's too, they've questioned some rules of Jill's childhood and familial boundaries. Those are the changes we're seeing. And I doubt we'd be seeing these changes had TLC paid for the birth expenses. 

I don't see any changes with the Dillards' belief system in the near future.

[Suzn]

10 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

I'm with you, people can and do change all the time.  People quit smoking, they stop using drugs.  They stop cheating on their spouses.  

If deeply ingrained beliefs didn't change over time, there would be no progress or evolution of humanity.  Yes, sometimes it takes a long time, even generations, but it happens.  And it has to start somewhere.

I am 63 years old. I was born at a time when schools were segregated, interracial marriage was illegal, open discrimination based on race was a part of life and rarely criticized.  People could go to war at 18 but couldn't vote until 21.  There was nothing available for birth control except condoms and rhythm and spermicide.  Women rarely worked outside the home and you virtually never saw a female doctor or lawyer or mechanic or truck driver.  No one had ever orbited the earth, let alone gone to the moon.

Times change, too slowly sometimes, but it is people who change them.

It's a glass half full argument.  Yes, all those changes happened, but there are great numbers of people alive today that would be happy to see a return to the past.  I see a large swath of humanity clinging tightly to hateful attitudes based on race, sex, sexual orientation and all the various "differences" that are apparent to the haters.  People can change when they want to change or are at least a bit open to it.

Behaviors can change; core beliefs less likely.  There have been changes I've made in my life but in my whole long life, my basic values have refined, shifted slightly, adjusted based on things learned, but are fundamentally still recognizable to me.  The 21 year old me and the 5 year old me, who cried if an animal was hurt in a movie, are still me.

[NotthebadVictoria]

6 hours ago, lascuba said:

(while still judging her for her past if she doesn't to some public self-flagellating, because I don't believe in blind forgiveness). But I don't have it in me to celebrate any changes along the way; I can't assume it must mean the important changes are coming. I understand why other do, but I'm not built that way.

I would never  expect Jill to apologize for how she was raised. She was abused pain and simple, to the point where she was forced on TV to praise her brother and act like it wasn’t a big deal to be molested by him.  She is a victim of a cult and she shouldn’t apologize for that. 
 

she’s growing up, she may be older but maturity wise she’s finally learning she can control her life. I’m the opposite and think lifting people Up and celebrating small steps helps them to make great progress. 
 

 

[ginger90]

Big difference between how Jill and Derick came across, vs Jinger and Jeremy.

[JAYJAY1979]

I like their attitude about drinking..and showing a healthy relationship with alcohol to their children as they get older

I like that they put some thought into their son's education and she had good points that he would accept the new norms of school better than most..and even said probably less likely to bring home as many germs.

Matlock is a fun show..and The office:)

[Churchhoney]

21 hours ago, magpye29 said:

They removed two but left one in.

I get that Jill and Derick doing these things does not mean that they have given up their hateful beliefs, but that's missing the point. How are they going to change their hateful beliefs without being exposed to other experiences and people? They've got to start somewhere, and Jill, at least, has a lot to overcome. And she's doing great.

Exactly. And maybe they won't change any more. But virtually nobody will do a 180 overnight. It's one step at a time. And while she may never take more than the one step, there's no way to tell at this point. She may take more as time goes on. One step is how the journey of a thousand miles begins, too, you know. 

Maybe one day she'll get an idea and Derick will listen to her. May not happen. But it might, too. Maybe Izzie or Sam will get an idea, and they'll listen to him. 

Frankly, I have family members who only ever took one or two steps out of the pattern they were molded into. But I've still been very happy for them. Because moving away even one step isn't easy for a lot of people. 

Edited September 16, 2020 by Churchhoney

[crazycatlady58]

Also while Jill may not change her kids have the chance of having a more open viewpoint.  Many years ago I went to a fundy/Calvinest church with the typical views.  One of the elders daughter is now very pro LGBT,  BLM ect. She also goes to church and I think it is the same one her mother goes to, NOT the same one we went to in past but still a somewhat conservative church. There is always hope that people may change. 

[graefin]

5 hours ago, lookeyloo said:

I watched their YouTube video. Comments turned off. Jill cannot make a sentence. Yeah, like, um interspersed with word salad. Maybe in real life she can speak coherently. If I didn’t know anything about Derick I would think he was a nice enough fellow. He can speak. 

Yeah, she spoke as she always has and came across as very simple (although I was impressed by her use of the word "transparent"--maybe she learned that term in therapy), whereas Derick, I thought, was very articulate and looked the best I've ever seen him look.

[P2C2E]

I was homeschooled and raised in the conservative christian church. My parents enforced strict modesty rules and did not allow dating.

I'm now a proud bisexual atheist. 

It didn't happen overnight but it happened. And it can happen for Jill too. There are many christians who are affirm the LGBTQ community. If I could recommend an author to Jill it would be Rachel Held Evans. She was a staunch evangelicalist who also was outspoken about social justice including being actively pro-choice. 

People can and do change. Even their fundamentally held core beliefs. I'm proud of Jill for how far she's come and I hope that she continues to grow.

 

 

[lascuba]

1 hour ago, NotthebadVictoria said:

I would never  expect Jill to apologize for how she was raised. She was abused pain and simple, to the point where she was forced on TV to praise her brother and act like it wasn’t a big deal to be molested by him.  She is a victim of a cult and she shouldn’t apologize for that. 
 

she’s growing up, she may be older but maturity wise she’s finally learning she can control her life. I’m the opposite and think lifting people Up and celebrating small steps helps them to make great progress. 
 

 

No but she sure as hell needs to apologize for her Danger America stint, both for the very beliefs and arrogance that led her there and the things she said about the region. And she also needs to acknowledge just how vile her beliefs on all sorts of things are/were. I think blaming the cult for everything is a cop out. We're all the products of our upbringings. And she more than most people in her belief system had a lot more exposure and opportunities. It doesn't really matter what the reasons are for someone to have been wrong and done harm. Yeah, her upbringing is an explanation, but not an excuse. If she ever becomes a decent human being, she can't just poo poo her homophobic/xenophobic/racist beliefs and actions away because, "I was in a cult!" So? Addicts can do horrible things under the influence--that they have a disease doesn't really matter when it comes to making amends.

[JoanArc]

Wow, looks like Jill's never gonna go back to Gothardism. Good. Maybe grab a few of her siblings on the way out the door on the next awkward family reunion.

[crazy8s]

35 minutes ago, lascuba said:

No but she sure as hell needs to apologize for her Danger America stint, both for the very beliefs and arrogance that led her there and the things she said about the region. And she also needs to acknowledge just how vile her beliefs on all sorts of things are/were. I think blaming the cult for everything is a cop out. We're all the products of our upbringings. And she more than most people in her belief system had a lot more exposure and opportunities. It doesn't really matter what the reasons are for someone to have been wrong and done harm. Yeah, her upbringing is an explanation, but not an excuse. If she ever becomes a decent human being, she can't just poo poo her homophobic/xenophobic/racist beliefs and actions away because, "I was in a cult!" So? Addicts can do horrible things under the influence--that they have a disease doesn't really matter when it comes to making amends.

i forget - how old was Jill when she went to Danger America? She had been told all her life she "had a heart for missions" - Jb set her up with Derick who was doing missions work. but Jill was cheated on knowing what that meant in real life. her experience 2 weeks with the family, being filmed, painting nails, handing out candy, JB adding O to the end of every word etc and then they went home.

if not today, someday she might realize how naive she and arrogant she sounded about the danger america fiasco.

but it may take time - we are all the product of our upbringing, it is not a cop out for me to say I had never eaten a salad until age 17. and it took  many tries with salad dressing before i figured out what i liked. I felt stupid for poor choices because i just didn't know. it is a silly, small thing but magnify that by the pressure of the cult and Jill has a long unravel and a steep learning curve ahead of her for any baby steps she takes

 

[Temperance]

6 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I was wondering the same thing. Also wondering if the "Whatever's good for y’all, that's fine. Live your life.", means, no biggie, it is her life, but I still love her, or good for Jill, living life on her own terms.

I'm guessing Jana, Jinger, Joe and Joy have no problem at all with it. Jessa secretly condemns her for it. The rest probably totally and outwardly disapprove.

I don't get why those siblings would be supportive.   I agree Jinger and Jeremy wouldn't have a problem with it. 

    Joy/Austin and Joe/Kendra seem the most koolaid drunk, and probably would have problems it. I doubt either any of them would say anything however. Joy has a new baby and 2 year old so she probably doesn't have more time to think about anything else.
      I wouldn't be surprised if Abbie/JD were okay with it since they are also going to an SBC church (not Kendra's dad church). It wouldn't surprise me if Abbie or John had tried a drink, since they were older when they were married. Maybe Abbie's LPN friends used to drink.

Anna and Josh probably disapprove, but they have enough kids and issues of their own.  I have no idea how Si/Lauren feel.  I get the sense most of the other siblings would blindly parroting their parents/family/cult if they know anything about it at all. 

[lascuba]

28 minutes ago, crazy8s said:

i forget - how old was Jill when she went to Danger America? She had been told all her life she "had a heart for missions" - Jb set her up with Derick who was doing missions work. but Jill was cheated on knowing what that meant in real life. her experience 2 weeks with the family, being filmed, painting nails, handing out candy, JB adding O to the end of every word etc and then they went home.

if not today, someday she might realize how naive she and arrogant she sounded about the danger america fiasco.

but it may take time - we are all the product of our upbringing, it is not a cop out for me to say I had never eaten a salad until age 17. and it took  many tries with salad dressing before i figured out what i liked. I felt stupid for poor choices because i just didn't know. it is a silly, small thing but magnify that by the pressure of the cult and Jill has a long unravel and a steep learning curve ahead of her for any baby steps she takes

 

Sure, but my point is that until that happens and she acknowledges it, I'm not going to just assume that she's made any changes that matter.  I just...can't. I can't give people who've demonstrated really shitty beliefs and behavior the benefit of the doubt. They need to explicitly say what they think and how they were wrong.* I know people like to think of the Duggar kids as still kids, but however they were raised, the adults are indeed adults with some agency. They can be held accountable. If Jill ever truly changes in any way other than cosmetic, that shouldn't be a problem for her.

*The alternative would be for Jill to go full scorched earth and publicly support abortion rights or something. Then I'd believe she's changed.

 

[farmgal4]

6 hours ago, FizzyPuff said:

Here’s their video in case anyone is interested:

 

That was soooo much easier to watch than the ones that J&J did.  

[GeeGolly]

1 hour ago, Temperance said:

I don't get why those siblings would be supportive.   I agree Jinger and Jeremy wouldn't have a problem with it. 

    Joy/Austin and Joe/Kendra seem the most koolaid drunk, and probably would have problems it. I doubt either any of them would say anything however. Joy has a new baby and 2 year old so she probably doesn't have more time to think about anything else.
      I wouldn't be surprised if Abbie/JD were okay with it since they are also going to an SBC church (not Kendra's dad church). It wouldn't surprise me if Abbie or John had tried a drink, since they were older when they were married. Maybe Abbie's LPN friends used to drink.

Anna and Josh probably disapprove, but they have enough kids and issues of their own.  I have no idea how Si/Lauren feel.  I get the sense most of the other siblings would blindly parroting their parents/family/cult if they know anything about it at all. 

That's just my read on who they are. I don't think how koolaid drunk they are, necessarily factors into how accepting they are. I also thought JD might be accepting too, but I think he has taken his role as the 'good Godly big brother' a little too seriously, so I didn't include him.

A person can be full-on Fundy and not be an asshole and the opposite is true too.

[lascuba]

36 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

That's just my read on who they are. I don't think how koolaid drunk they are, necessarily factors into how accepting they are. I also thought JD might be accepting too, but I think he has taken his role as the 'good Godly big brother' a little too seriously, so I didn't include him.

A person can be full-on Fundy and not be an asshole and the opposite is true too.

I can't see JD being at all cool about it, no matter how laid back he's alleged to be. I think the only ones who definitely would be are Jinger and Josiah. I go back and forth on Joy, because she's supposedly the most vocally conservative of the bunch, but the vibe I get from her is that while she might be extremely conservative politically, she doesn't care about the fundie side of things. Jana--not a chance, though I see her pulling the passive-aggressive "Whatever you think the Lord tells you. I'll pray for you" over it. Maybe the twins, but that's because I've never paid any attention to them so I just assume they're gender and birth order make them a bit more relaxed about this kind of thing.

[Panopticon]

My guesses on Jill’s siblings’ thoughts:

Josh: Rules are for everyone but the prince. He and Anna are judging hard.

Jana: The taskmaster who has been running the family for 20 years and has no experience living a life away from Jim Bob’s headship. Does not approve.

JD: Married a woman with a touch of education and a job, generally pretty laid back but does view himself as the replacement perfect brother since Josh fell from grace. Does not approve.

Jessa: Her views haven’t been changed one bit by marriage and adulting, and she never liked Jill anyway. Does not approve.

Jinger: She’s fine with it.

Joe: The one who dragged Joy back in when she questioned the cult. Does not approve.

Josiah: Had a courtship with a pants-wearing education-seeking girl. Might be capable of open-mindedness. 

Joy: Hasn’t strayed religiously, but genuinely loves Jill in more than a perfunctory way. Too busy with babies to be actively judgy. 
 

Edited September 17, 2020 by Panopticon

[JoanArc]

2 minutes ago, Panopticon said:

Joy: Hasn’t strayed religiously, but genuinely loves Jill in a non-performative way. Too busy with babies to be actively judgy. 

  Hopefully Jill will pull Austin aside and point out just how abusive both their parents are/were and maybe slip him the name of her therapist. 

Edited September 17, 2020 by JoanArc

[madpsych78]

Of the Howlers, I think that James wouldn't care, but the rest would not approve. Although Jed! and Jason would probably be the ones to voice that. 

And of the Smuggars, I totally agree that Anna is probably judging hard more than anyone. Not that sure about Josh. It could honestly go either way. 

[OpieTaylor]

Don’t forget that Austin is a former drinker/smoker who apparently decided to turn away from it. Does that mean he realizes it’s not a big deal to have an occasional drink? Or does he think it’s a slippery slope and believes in total abstinence?

[JoanArc]

43 minutes ago, OpieTaylor said:

Don’t forget that Austin is a former drinker/smoker who apparently decided to turn away from it. Does that mean he realizes it’s not a big deal to have an occasional drink? Or does he think it’s a slippery slope and believes in total abstinence?

 He seemed to experiment a little bit drinking and smoking, I don’t think that makes him a drinker or smoker. He never turned away from the ideology or really critically thought about anything. 

[NotthebadVictoria]

1 hour ago, madpsych78 said:

Of the Howlers, I think that James wouldn't care, but the rest would not approve. Although Jed! and Jason would probably be the ones to voice that. 

And of the Smuggars, I totally agree that Anna is probably judging hard more than anyone. Not that sure about Josh. It could honestly go either way. 

Sex Pest is most likely jealous she can openly drink and he can’t 🤣.

[Temperance]

2 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

That's just my read on who they are. I don't think how koolaid drunk they are, necessarily factors into how accepting they are. I also thought JD might be accepting too, but I think he has taken his role as the 'good Godly big brother' a little too seriously, so I didn't include him.

A person can be full-on Fundy and not be an asshole and the opposite is true too.

To me, a fundie is by definition a judgmental jerk. 

John and Abbie are going to church like Jill and Derick are, with people who do things differently. 

Joy and Austin are probably too busy to be actively judging, but I'd be very surprise if asked they weren't be judgmental. These two show no growth and yet everyone has such hope for them. 

[Zella]

1 hour ago, Temperance said:

Joy and Austin are probably too busy to be actively judging, but I'd be very surprise if asked they weren't be judgmental. These two show no growth and yet everyone has such hope for them. 

I think Joy's closeness to Jill from the buddy system might prevent her from saying anything to her about drinking alcohol (I do think Jill's relationship with her buddies was genuinely very close), but I suspect Joy and Austin are probably pretty uptight in general about these things. I think they're 2 of the biggest Kool-Aid drinkers, and the fact they had teenaged rebellions that were tamped down makes me think that has cemented them further in the ideology rather than given them a degree or empathy or perspective. 

[Nysha]

I think any step forward is positive. I also don't think Jill has to apologize for being woefully naive and unprepared for missionary work in South America. When they realized she wasn't able to cope, they came back to America and went in a different direction. I also don't think she has to condemn or refute her husband's publicly expressed homophobia. She is not responsible for his actions. When she comes out against the LGBQ-T community, then I'll judge her on her own actions. 

Derick is an asshat and totally needs to understand and admit that his attack on a transgender child was evil and repugnant. Then he needs to reach out to her and apologize for the hurt and hate that he spread. 

[GeeGolly]

Folks are complicated. IRL I know folks who are anti-abortion but they would never judge someone for terminating a pregnancy and would probably even give a woman a ride to do so. I know Catholics who are okay with the churches stance with LGBTQ, but they themselves have no problem with the LGBTQ community. I know a new mom who is anti-vax for her kid, thinks they shouldn't be mandatory, but understands why others vaccinate their children.

I really have no idea who supports Jill and who doesn't, I just have certain ideas on the Duggar crew. Some seem a little more judgmental to me. I agree that Joy and Joe seem to fully embrace the system they grew up in, but they just don't seem the judgmental type to me. I think Jinger may be a little judgie of others, but I don't think she thinks alcohol is off limits. As far as Jana, I think she struggles the most with her religion and she doesn't seem to me to be very judgmental. Jessa seems to me to be judgmental of others because of her own insecurities, independent of her belief system. I don't think the rest of the adult crew are going to take time to think deeply enough if it matters to them, so they'll just toe the party line and think its wrong. But I could be wrong on some, or everyone of them.

I do wonder how JB & M are handling it though. Are they discussing it with the kids? Are they blaming Derick and worried about a slippery slope? Are they praying for Jill?

[lascuba]

7 hours ago, Nysha said:

I think any step forward is positive. I also don't think Jill has to apologize for being woefully naive and unprepared for missionary work in South America. When they realized she wasn't able to cope, they came back to America and went in a different direction. I also don't think she has to condemn or refute her husband's publicly expressed homophobia. She is not responsible for his actions. When she comes out against the LGBQ-T community, then I'll judge her on her own actions. 

Derick is an asshat and totally needs to understand and admit that his attack on a transgender child was evil and repugnant. Then he needs to reach out to her and apologize for the hurt and hate that he spread. 

Missionary work--especially the type that evangelical christians do--is an inherently racist act. I don't care how naive or unprepared Jill was. The fact that she thought--and likely still continues to think because she hasn't said otherwise--that it's a fine and noble thing to do is why I judge her about it.

[louannems]

On 9/16/2020 at 10:47 AM, FizzyPuff said:

Here’s their video in case anyone is interested:

 

While talking about their philosophy toward alcohol, Jill started talking in an annoying gottal fry!

Mostly though, she still sounds way too immature.

[QuinnInND]

 

[magpye29]

On 9/16/2020 at 4:02 PM, GeeGolly said:

at this point I don't think Jill & Derick are questioning their conservative 'Christian' beliefs, which is what they use to defend their judgement of others. If they're not questioning it on their own, it would most likely take a significant event to have them questioning their beliefs or many little events over a period of time.

But of all the Duggars, Jill is the most likely to encounter someone or something that will be in direct conflict with her beliefs, due to the many experiences she is having for the first time, including have Israel in school. There has to be some impetus for change, but if your status quo is never challenged, you will have no reason to change (I'm looking at you, Jessa). As you say, it will take a significant event to rattle her cage, or many little events. We're not yet at the point where we'll see them questioning their own bigotry yet, but I think it could happen, Not will, but could. 

[awaken]

Ugh, noted the vocal fry!  She got stuck a few times in a “like, um, sooooo, yeah” cycle and derick mercifully stepped in and continued the sentence. 
 

he was still evasive IMO about what area of law he plans to work in. 
 

love how he said he’s exposing her to the public school reading lists, and she gave a big eye roll!  

[floridamom]

After watching their video, which I appreciate that they did, I agree with the 'um...yeah...like..' problem. Jill doesn't know how to construct a coherent sentence. Derick is a good speaker in comparison. He was vague about what area of law he wishes to practice in. The explanation he gave isn't a specific area of practice that I know of. Clearly he wants to go into  civil defense. Time will tell when he graduates, passes the Bar exam and where is begins working. Jill needs to get out of the house more and interact with other women/people her own age. She still has a lot to learn about basic life but she's made a big leap recently. I attribute some of this to Cathy and Derick bringing her into the real world. JB and Michelle must be livid. No wonder she isn't allowed at the big house without JB's permission and presence. They are petrified that Jill would sway her siblings away from that strict cult of a lifestyle.

[GeeGolly]

Derick and Miss Cathy have lived mainstream lives and still maintain their beliefs, which is why I don't see Jill leaving that behind. I really don't think Jill understands the impact her beliefs have on others. Even when they're protesting Pro-Choice, I don't think she thinks it all the way through. Some folks just can't or won't see the facts. And there is so much misinformation out there that they can choose to believe.

Like I've said before, I don't hate the Duggars, but my feelings about them changed when Michelle did the robo-call about bathrooms. Believe whatever you want to believe, but stay in your own lane and let others live their lives.

My feelings about Derick drastically changed when he publicly called out a child on SM. Its fine if Derick doesn't understand gender dysphoria, he's certainly not alone, but again, stay in your own lane and let others live their lives.

Along with most of you, I've hoped the Duggar 19 could break away and become independent adults and I think Jill has made some progress in that area, but as long as she's attaching her wagon to Derick, I think she's gone as far as she'll go. At least for the near future. 

 

[Suzn]

4 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

Derick and Miss Cathy have lived mainstream lives and still maintain their beliefs, which is why I don't see Jill leaving that behind. I really don't think Jill understands the impact her beliefs have on others. Even when they're protesting Pro-Choice, I don't think she thinks it all the way through. Some folks just can't or won't see the facts. And there is so much misinformation out there that they can choose to believe.

Like I've said before, I don't hate the Duggars, but my feelings about them changed when Michelle did the robo-call about bathrooms. Believe whatever you want to believe, but stay in your own lane and let others live their lives.

My feelings about Derick drastically changed when he publicly called out a child on SM. Its fine if Derick doesn't understand gender dysphoria, he's certainly not alone, but again, stay in your own lane and let others live their lives.

Along with most of you, I've hoped the Duggar 19 could break away and become independent adults and I think Jill has made some progress in that area, but as long as she's attaching her wagon to Derick, I think she's gone as far as she'll go. At least for the near future. 

 

This makes the important points.  Jill gets praise for superficial changes that appear more mainstream, but there is absolutely no indication that she has made any changes in the beliefs that are problematic for many of us.

I think everyone has the right to believe whatever they choose, but the very important distinction to make is that the Duggars and Derick and Cathy want to interfere with other people's behavior.  They are not content to just live their own lives by their beliefs, they want to take away rights of others.

[Kellyee]

Quote

Jana--not a chance, though I see her pulling the passive-aggressive "Whatever you think the Lord tells you. I'll pray for you" over it.

Do you think the rumors are true and Jana tattles on her siblings "immoral" behavior to their parents? I didn't watch the latest episode, so I don't know if they finally showed her having a life or not. 

If the goal is to be more mainstream and therefore attract more fans (and donors), Jill drinking responsibly is the way to go. Most mainstream Christians will have a drink here and there. So this puts them more in touch with the base. So does using birth control and saying you feel sorry for transgender people (like Derek did to Jazz Jennings). Some of the Duggar rules and beliefs are really out there, like no being alone even on phone calls while you are "courting". Christians will support their choice, but it won't create any kind of bond with fans. I think this is part of why Jeremy fled to Los Angeles with Jinger. He wants fame and fans, and being a Duggar isn't the draw he might of thought it would be.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Zella]

13 minutes ago, Kellyee said:

If the goal is to be more mainstream and therefore attract more fans (and donors), Jill drinking responsibly is the way to go. Most mainstream Christians will have a drink here and there. So this puts them more in touch with the base. So does using birth control and saying you feel sorry for transgender people (like Derek did to Jazz Jennings).

I don't think he meant that he was sorry for Jazz Jennings in a compassionate way at all. It was basically subtext for "I feel sorry for you because you're going to hell, and I'm not." 

Clarification: His exact words were he felt sorry for Jazz because he felt Jazz was being used. Again, I don't think he has any inherent sympathy for trans people. 

13 minutes ago, Kellyee said:

Do you think the rumors are true and Jana tattles on her siblings "immoral" behavior to their parents? I didn't watch the latest episode, so I don't know if they finally showed her having a life or not. 

I wouldn't be surprised if she does. I don't think she is as trusted by her parents if she didn't demonstrate full loyalty, and I think to them, narcing on any sign of disobedience or rebellion in the others is loyalty. 

Edited September 18, 2020 by Zella

[GeeGolly]

22 minutes ago, Kellyee said:

Do you think the rumors are true and Jana tattles on her siblings "immoral" behavior to their parents? I didn't watch the latest episode, so I don't know if they finally showed her having a life or not. 

If the goal is to be more mainstream and therefore attract more fans (and donors), Jill drinking responsibly is the way to go. Most mainstream Christians will have a drink here and there. So this puts them more in touch with the base. So does using birth control and saying you feel sorry for transgender people (like Derek did to Jazz Jennings). Some of the Duggar rules and beliefs are really out there, like no being alone even on phone calls while you are "courting". Christians will support their choice, but it won't create any kind of bond with fans. I think this is part of why Jeremy fled to Los Angeles with Jinger. He wants fame and fans, and being a Duggar isn't the draw he might of thought it would be.

I'm not sure I understand that statement. Derick consistently and purposely misgendered Jazz and called her parents child abusers. How does that put them in touch with mainstream folks?

[Zella]

5 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

Derick and Miss Cathy have lived mainstream lives and still maintain their beliefs, which is why I don't see Jill leaving that behind. I really don't think Jill understands the impact her beliefs have on others. Even when they're protesting Pro-Choice, I don't think she thinks it all the way through. Some folks just can't or won't see the facts. And there is so much misinformation out there that they can choose to believe.

Like I've said before, I don't hate the Duggars, but my feelings about them changed when Michelle did the robo-call about bathrooms. Believe whatever you want to believe, but stay in your own lane and let others live their lives.

My feelings about Derick drastically changed when he publicly called out a child on SM. Its fine if Derick doesn't understand gender dysphoria, he's certainly not alone, but again, stay in your own lane and let others live their lives.

Along with most of you, I've hoped the Duggar 19 could break away and become independent adults and I think Jill has made some progress in that area, but as long as she's attaching her wagon to Derick, I think she's gone as far as she'll go. At least for the near future. 

 

1 hour ago, Suzn said:

This makes the important points.  Jill gets praise for superficial changes that appear more mainstream, but there is absolutely no indication that she has made any changes in the beliefs that are problematic for many of us.

I think everyone has the right to believe whatever they choose, but the very important distinction to make is that the Duggars and Derick and Cathy want to interfere with other people's behavior.  They are not content to just live their own lives by their beliefs, they want to take away rights of others.

I think a lot of people for sure conflate going more mainstream with them dropping hateful, bigoted beliefs, and that's simply not a given.

I think the Duggar offspring are very broken people because of the way they were raised. And that's not even all about the molestation scandal. Jill's whole thing about eating the bathroom to have some peace and quiet is just so pitiful to me. A lot of the siblings seem to have food issues (I think the gross platelicking is part of it too--as I've talked about on here before, I also think Josie's licking thing goes beyond her being gross, and I actually just find it really sad), and the whole buddy system of forcing older siblings to raise the younger ones is very damaging, in my mind, to both parties.

So, for that reason, I actually do give Jill some kudos for having some recognition into how toxic and fucked up the way she was raised was. That's hard for anyone, and I do think based on some of the changes that she has made, that she is in a better place emotionally and mentally than she was. She seems to be much happier, and I think that's a genuine. I don't know the exact state of her relationship with her family, but it seems like she may have some boundaries with them and that she is okay with no longer being lock-in-step with them on everything. For someone who was the people pleaser and the biggest Kool-Aid drinker, that's a pretty significant change in outlook. And I think that's more personal growth than most of her siblings can demonstrate. 

That being said, I would be really surprised if any of the Duggars ever change their mind on fundamental political or social beliefs. I don't think any of these kids are going to evolve into LGBT allies, registered Democrats, or atheists, and I don't think it is reasonable to conclude that lifestyle changes about alcohol or clothing suggest a change in those fundamental beliefs. I think best-case scenario is they evolve into realizing that their right to believe whatever they want to believe doesn't give them the right to enforce those beliefs on other people. 

I guess the TLDR version of the post is I think it's important not to conflate lifestyle changes with a fundamental worldview change, but I also don't think the changes Jill are making are insignificant, given the way she was raised and how she was. I hope, especially for the sake of her kids, that she is a happier, better-adjusted, less neurotic person than she was. But I don't think she or Derick will ever significantly veer away from being conservative Southern Baptists. That's their prerogative as long as they recognize not everyone else has to be a conservative Southern Baptist, too, and are respectful of other people. (I think the latter might be more of an issue for Derick than Jill, but I don't know. I don't remember her having the public outbursts he did, though of course that doesn't mean anything about what she actually thinks.)

Edited September 18, 2020 by Zella

[Kellyee]

Quote

I'm not sure I understand that statement. Derick consistently and purposely misgendered Jazz and called her parents child abusers. How does that put them in touch with mainstream folks?

I meant it matches the common language that mainstream devout Christians use when they say they don't hate LGBTQ people - they just disagree with their "lifestyle." And they think they're "lost" and just need to find Jesus. Derek sounds like that. 

 

 

 

 

[DangerousMinds]

7 hours ago, floridamom said:

After watching their video, which I appreciate that they did, I agree with the 'um...yeah...like..' problem. Jill doesn't know how to construct a coherent sentence. Derick is a good speaker in comparison. He was vague about what area of law he wishes to practice in. The explanation he gave isn't a specific area of practice that I know of. Clearly he wants to go into  civil defense. Time will tell when he graduates, passes the Bar exam and where is begins working. Jill needs to get out of the house more and interact with other women/people her own age. She still has a lot to learn about basic life but she's made a big leap recently. I attribute some of this to Cathy and Derick bringing her into the real world. JB and Michelle must be livid. No wonder she isn't allowed at the big house without JB's permission and presence. They are petrified that Jill would sway her siblings away from that strict cult of a lifestyle.

In Jill’s defense, the Kartrashians still speak like her, with all the “likes” and vocal dry, and they were educated somewhat normal and have had lots of media experience. Hopefully Jill is able to overcome what those idiots have never been able to.

[Kellyee]

Quote

In Jill’s defense, the Kartrashians still speak like her, with all the “likes” and vocal dry, and they were educated somewhat normal and have had lots of media experience. Hopefully Jill is able to overcome what those idiots have never been able to.

I work with someone with a college education who says Like and You Know every other word, on every single conference call. It's not a homeschool problem. 

Early on, Israel and Spurgeon were shown playing together multiple times on Instagram. I noticed that doesn't seem to happen any more, or at least they're not advertising it on social media. Which is sad since the boys are cousins and the same age. 

Quote

Jill needs to get out of the house more and interact with other women/people her own age. 

She and cousin Amy seem closer these days. Maybe Amy can help her. Jim Bob probably blames Amy for the pina colada episode.

 

 

 

 

 

[lascuba]

1 hour ago, Kellyee said:

Do you think the rumors are true and Jana tattles on her siblings "immoral" behavior to their parents? I didn't watch the latest episode, so I don't know if they finally showed her having a life or not.

I hadn't considered that, but it wouldn't surprise me. Jill was the tattle tale of the group before she married, so maybe Jana took over that role. I think, as the primary caretaker of the minor children, she's her parents' enforcer and in that capacity she does discuss with Michelle and JB any "problematic" thoughts or behaviors so they can "help." As for the adult siblings, it's hard to say. I don't think any of the siblings Joy and older are particularly close to Jana, so I don't think they'd confide in her about any rule-breaking anyway.

Considering how good she is at keeping her thoughts to herself on camera, it wouldn't surprise me if she was that discrete about everything and would keep that kind of thing to herself. On the other hand,  Jana was almost hysterical when describing how Michelle told her about Josh and the Ashley Madison story. For that reason, I can see her immediately telling if she knew of any "sinning" going on among the adults, to avoid the situation getting worse.

[rue721]

I’m pretty sure Jana is the family cop/enforcer.

I feel bad for her, but I also doubt I would like her personally

[TeeMo]

On 9/16/2020 at 5:52 PM, P2C2E said:

I was homeschooled and raised in the conservative christian church. My parents enforced strict modesty rules and did not allow dating.

I'm now a proud bisexual atheist. 

It didn't happen overnight but it happened. And it can happen for Jill too. There are many christians who are affirm the LGBTQ community. If I could recommend an author to Jill it would be Rachel Held Evans. She was a staunch evangelicalist who also was outspoken about social justice including being actively pro-choice. 

People can and do change. Even their fundamentally held core beliefs. I'm proud of Jill for how far she's come and I hope that she continues to grow.

 

 

I agree. My dad and I had knock down drag out fights about politics for 25 years. Screaming at each other.  He retired a few years back which meant he no longer listened to conservative talk radio in the shop all day, got away from his coworkers who used to send him some of the most batshit crazy email forwards I’ve ever seen and started reading primary source based history books on his own. I am not kidding when I say his entire world view has changed. He is like a different person. People can change. Do I think Jill and Derrick will change all that much? Maybe not. But Jill grew up so sheltered that there is no way to know what exposure to more mainstream things will do for her mind and heart. I actually think it is possible that she might surpass Derrick in stepping out a bit (if she can manage to ever challenge her headship) since the whole world is new to her in a way it is not to him - he grew up being exposed to more and still wound up a hateful jerk. But whether or not THEY change all that much just having a more open attitude and allowing some of these things in their home WILL make a difference for Izzy and Sam who will not grow up afraid and suspicious of the world outside the way Jill did. Even that is something to celebrate.