Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[Cinnabon]

17 minutes ago, sue450 said:

just want to say to posters who say anna should just leave and get a job....1  she would have to stay with someone  who will protect her  and get her the help she  needs

2...they must prevent anyone from taking advantage of her because it would be so easy to happen

3. She can't just go get a job..she does not have a clue how to function in the real world.

 4, leading to years of therapy to undo all the mental physical

damage (  I see this in the stories of  the brave people who managed to get out)  they are in therapy for years  and they learn to function but they say they aren't 100%  but doing the best they can

Why does she need “protection “ more than any other single mother trying to make it out there?

[BitterApple]

The biggest issue for Anna is going to be childcare. I don't know that Ma and Pa Keller are able to watch the kids while she works full time. She could probably get a daycare subsidy, but a lot of those places that take low-income mothers are shitty. My cousin's baby went to one and ended up with a broken leg after a worker yanked him out of a highchair too roughly.

I don't think Anna is so uneducated where she couldn't do entry level work, I'm just not sure she has the desire and willpower to divorce Pest and truly go it on her own. 

 

[crazy8s]

I don't think Ma and Pa Keller would help - Pa Keller and David Keller went to "minister" to Josh at the Reber home (while David was visiting Hannah, I'm sure)  All the parents seem in agreement and Anna shows no indication of wanting to leave the deal she has. Free housing, duggar motor pool car, golf cart for her kids to drive over to the TTH for meals/snacks and most likely school, 3 sister moms there to help, etc

JB takes the M kids along on outings with the few duggar kids left at home. Michael, age 10, will be mowing lawns or detailing cars any old minute now for JB or his uncles' various enterprises.

[RedDelicious]

Zinger Dagger sounds like the name of an Austin Powers Fembot 🎀😄

[Love2dance]

Realistically, what kind of job could Anna possibly find that would pay enough to support seven children and herself, given her education and work history (none)?

[Rootbeer]

8 hours ago, Love2dance said:

Realistically, what kind of job could Anna possibly find that would pay enough to support seven children and herself, given her education and work history (none)?

There are many single parents supporting their kids with low paying, entry level jobs.  There is some public assistance available for childcare, housing subsidies, food stamps.  Her kids could attend regular public schools and receive free lunches, after school programming, etc.  Yeah, it wouldn't be great, but it would be better than staying with Josh, IMO.

[Ohiopirate02]

5 minutes ago, Rootbeer said:

There are many single parents supporting their kids with low paying, entry level jobs.  There is some public assistance available for childcare, housing subsidies, food stamps.  Her kids could attend regular public schools and receive free lunches, after school programming, etc.  Yeah, it wouldn't be great, but it would be better than staying with Josh, IMO.

And because Anna has so many kids, she can take an entry level position at Chik-fil-a or Hobby Lobby making over $10/hr and never lose her benefits.  

JB can also get Jana to become a licensed daycare provider who is willing to take government money and he could make out on the deal.

[iwantcookies]

Once upon a time Anna and Zinger Dagger left their husbands behind ...

is a good villain origin story 

[iwantcookies]

There is 1% chance Anna will divorce Josh. She is staying until JB stops supporting her. My guess JB spends the most $ on Anna/Josh.

[Hpmec]

3 hours ago, Rootbeer said:

There are many single parents supporting their kids with low paying, entry level jobs.  There is some public assistance available for childcare, housing subsidies, food stamps.  Her kids could attend regular public schools and receive free lunches, after school programming, etc.  Yeah, it wouldn't be great, but it would be better than staying with Josh, IMO.

She's way too invested in the cult to even consider public school. Would not want her children associating with non believers/outsiders. Boob and Meech are,no doubt, giving her plenty to do -- housekeeping, laundry, cooking, "teaching" the lost kids and her own at the kitchen table academy. She has a roof over her head and her kids are being fed. In her world women don't work outside the home. For a woman with 7 kids whose husband is in serious legal trouble, she actually has it better than most. She's not going anywhere. 

[Minivanessa]

21 minutes ago, Hpmec said:

She's way too invested in the cult to even consider public school. Would not want her children associating with non believers/outsiders. Boob and Meech are,no doubt, giving her plenty to do -- housekeeping, laundry, cooking, "teaching" the lost kids and her own at the kitchen table academy. She has a roof over her head and her kids are being fed. In her world women don't work outside the home. For a woman with 7 kids whose husband is in serious legal trouble, she actually has it better than most. She's not going anywhere. 

^^This. Absolutely this.

I think Anna would put her kids in public school when hell freezes over. She's been preached at all her life, that public schools are evil. I read the book "I Fired God," by a woman who grew up in the IFB world (not the Gothard subset, though), married young to a guy also in that world, had kids, did the super-mom homeschooling, etc. She and her husband ultimately had too many questions and left the cult. She's not stupid, and it took guts and even cunning for them to break away. They had been living in a town that was heavily populated by the IFB. Not a fenced off compound but it sounded like it might as well have been  - very creepy. Once they broke away and moved to a new town, she was struggling with depression I think as a reaction to the traumas of breaking free, and she had all her kids that she was trying to homeschool. She was encouraged by a member of their new church to enroll her children in public school. She wrote:

Quote

I couldn’t shake the images the IFB pastors had painted in my mind about public school—of orgies on elementary playgrounds and condoms being handed out by teachers around every corner.

Zichterman, Jocelyn. I Fired God: My Life Inside---and Escape from---the Secret World of the Independent Fundamental Baptist Cult (p. 207). St. Martin's Press. Kindle Edition. 

(She did visit the school, talked with the principal, and enrolled her kids, who adjusted very well there.)

I wouldn't be surprised if Anna's view of public school is similarly skewed toward fantasies of orgies, condoms, drugs, whatever. Yes, I know. She's supposedly been exposed to mainstream life - but I don't think she's been exposed that much.

Edited September 23, 2021 by Jeeves
Formatting

[CouchTater]

Orgies at elementary schools?  Some of these fundies really are sick.  They really are projecting their perversions and depravities onto the rest of society, aren't they?

If there is a God, I hope she is watching and taking notes.

[MargeGunderson]

1 hour ago, CouchTater said:

Orgies at elementary schools?  Some of these fundies really are sick.  They really are projecting their perversions and depravities onto the rest of society, aren't they?

If there is a God, I hope she is watching and taking notes.

It’s another way for them to feel superior to the rest of us. 

I’m kinda disappointed I missed out on the drugs, orgies and condoms in public school. Guess I was too busy getting an education, but I’m not sure from the fundy perspective that an education isn’t just as bad. 

Edited September 23, 2021 by MargeGunderson

[Cinnabon]

6 hours ago, Rootbeer said:

There are many single parents supporting their kids with low paying, entry level jobs.  There is some public assistance available for childcare, housing subsidies, food stamps.  Her kids could attend regular public schools and receive free lunches, after school programming, etc.  Yeah, it wouldn't be great, but it would be better than staying with Josh, IMO.

There are millions of single, poor, uneducated mothers out there raising multiple children. It’s not easy but it’s very common in this country. As you said, there are some (but not nearly enough) support programs available. In some states when receiving TANF, women are eligible for free training and schooling. I knew some women who got nursing degrees while receiving benefits. But housing, food, medical, and childcare help is available almost everywhere. I can’t imagine that JB wouldn’t give them a house to live in, even if Anna divorced Josh. He has so many properties and cares too much about public perception of the family.

2 hours ago, Hpmec said:

She's way too invested in the cult to even consider public school. Would not want her children associating with non believers/outsiders. Boob and Meech are,no doubt, giving her plenty to do -- housekeeping, laundry, cooking, "teaching" the lost kids and her own at the kitchen table academy. She has a roof over her head and her kids are being fed. In her world women don't work outside the home. For a woman with 7 kids whose husband is in serious legal trouble, she actually has it better than most. She's not going anywhere. 

I agree, but it would be wonderful if those kids had to attend a real school (many private religious schools offer financial help) and got a decent education!

[sue450]

On 9/22/2021 at 2:35 PM, Cinnabon said:

Why does she need “protection “ more than any other single mother trying to make it out there?

  because she has never lived in the REAL WORLD, it would be super easy for someone to take advantage of her and it has happened to some who got out in the beginning    maybe you should go read the stories of the brave ones who got out to understand. 

Edited September 23, 2021 by sue450

[Cinnabon]

18 hours ago, sue450 said:

  because she has never lived in the REAL WORLD, it would be super easy for someone to take advantage of her and it has happened to some who got out in the beginning    maybe you should go read the stories of the brave ones who got out to understand. 

That wording just rubs me the wrong way because of Gothard’s teachings about women needing an umbrella of protection from men. If she had some strong women helping her out, I’d support that!

[Nysha]

I thought it would be better for Anna to leave after the molestation and Ashley Madison activities became public, but now I think she's probably better off staying where she is as long as Pest is in prison. Right now the M-kids have nice clothing, a nice enough place to live, and security. If she leaves she's going to plunge those sheltered kids into poverty and insecurity because she has no skills that will allow her to get a job making a livable wage for 8 people and won't have for a long time. The kids may know that daddy is in trouble, but I doubt they have any idea why he's in trouble. Unless they move far far away, Mackynzie and Michael will probably learn all the gory details at school once it's known their father is Sex Pest. 

I really dislike Anna and abhor her beliefs, but I don't think her children need their lives torn apart right now. 

Edited September 25, 2021 by Nysha

[Minivanessa]

6 minutes ago, Nysha said:

Unless they move far far away, Mackynzie and Michael will probably learn all the gory details at school once it's known their father is Sex Pest. 

Don't forget, they don't - and won't -  go to school, so there's not even that to worry about for them in the near future. 

[quarks]

The defense has responded to the prosecution's response to their motion for a Franks hearing (basically, an attempt to dismiss the entire case on Fourth Amendment grounds.) You can read their response here:

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.arwd.62817/gov.uscourts.arwd.62817.58.0.pdf

I'm not personally convinced by all of the arguments the defense is listing here - especially the "IT TOOK YOU SIX MONTHS TO SHOW UP WITH A SEARCH WARRANT!" Well, yes, they were trying to make sure they were searching the correct place and that the search would be, well, warranted. That's the entire point of getting a search warrant. If this had taken six years, sure, I'd be the first to agree that this could be a potential problem. But six months seems reasonable to me.  

I'm also really not convinced that this ongoing "OTHER PEOPLE COULD HAVE USED THE WIFI" argument is going to work either, since the issue here is that the CSA was found on Josh's computer, not on the computers/devices of all of these alleged people hanging out at the car lot on that day.

(I am also personally disputing the defense's contention that the car lot had "countless employees and customers," because look, no, but that's probably kinda irrelevant.)

And while I can see where the defense is going with this, I'm not convinced that the failure of the federal government to completely download a full zip file is enough to make the search warrant invalid. I think this could be a problem if they arrested Josh based solely on that incomplete zip file, but as far as I can tell, that isn't what happened? They used the incomplete zip file to get a search warrant to determine if a crime had been committed. They indicted Josh based on what is on Josh's computer. 

And I think that while the defense has a point with their argument that a search of the devices in question needs to be done within a reasonable timeframe and typically within the timeframe noted by the search warrant, in this case, the government has a legitimate excuse for continuing to do searches on the devices up until February 2021 - Covid and Covid protocols. So I'm not sure that this argument is going to work either. I expect the defense is going to note that the devices were seized in November 2019 and Covid didn't really start disrupting things in the United States until February/March 2020, but....again, I don't think that we're talking an unreasonable time frame here even pre-Covid.

All that said, I think there may be enough here to justify holding a separate hearing on this motion/response/response. I guess we'll see?

[Cinnabon]

1 hour ago, Nysha said:

I thought it would be better for Anna to leave after the molestation and Ashley Madison activities became public, but now I think she's probably better off staying where she is as long as Pest is in prison. Right now the M-kids have nice clothing, a nice enough place to live, and security. If she leaves she's going to plunge those sheltered kids into poverty and insecurity because she has no skills that will allow her to get a job making a livable wage for 8 people and won't have for a long time. The kids may know that daddy is in trouble, but I doubt they have any idea why he's in trouble. Unless they move far far away, Mackynzie and Michael will probably learn all the gory details at school once it's known their father is Sex Pest. 

I really dislike Anna and abhor her beliefs, but I don't think her children need their lives torn apart right now. 

I’d rather grow up poor and well educated than “comfortable” but brainwashed and uneducated. Wouldn’t most of us? They would have a place to live, food, medical care, and other necessities. And this is Anna Duggar - both fans and haters rooting for her escape would send lots of love offerings.

Edited September 25, 2021 by Cinnabon

[Churchhoney]

1 hour ago, Cinnabon said:

I’d rather grow up poor and well educated than “comfortable” but brainwashed and uneducated. Wouldn’t most of us? 

I don't think the Duggars, including Anna, would make the same choice here at all, though, would they?

What I'd define as "well educated" they'd call "handing your brain over to Satan so he can eternally hold it in his grip." And what I call "brainwashed and uneducated," they call "educated in the best possible way," I think. And if you add "comfortable" to "educated in the best possible way," you've got a winner in their view, I'm pretty sure. 

 

 

[Cinnabon]

1 hour ago, Churchhoney said:

I don't think the Duggars, including Anna, would make the same choice here at all, though, would they?

What I'd define as "well educated" they'd call "handing your brain over to Satan so he can eternally hold it in his grip." And what I call "brainwashed and uneducated," they call "educated in the best possible way," I think. And if you add "comfortable" to "educated in the best possible way," you've got a winner in their view, I'm pretty sure. 

 

 

Well, I was referring to us here on the board. Too bad this country allows unmonitored “homeschooling” like these families do. Those kids aren’t getting what they deserve.

[Quilt Fairy]

2 hours ago, quarks said:

I'm not convinced that the failure of the federal government to completely download a full zip file is enough to make the search warrant invalid.

Especially as the remainder of the zip file would be unlikely  to clear Josh of the charges. 

@quarks, do you know the status of the Oct 10th hearing?  Last I read, the defense was asking for a delay due to a conflict with an actual trial. 

[GeeGolly]

I have a totally uneducated question about the zip file. Could they argue Josh was actually downloading something legit that had CSA on it without Josh's knowledge and the government only has a partial file?

[quarks]

13 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Especially as the remainder of the zip file would be unlikely  to clear Josh of the charges. 

@quarks, do you know the status of the Oct 10th hearing?  Last I read, the defense was asking for a delay due to a conflict with an actual trial. 

From my understanding, the hearing on these motions was originally scheduled for October 4, 2021. 

However, Justin Gefland, who is Josh's lead counsel, is also lead counsel in a separate case where a jury trial is starting on October 4. So defense requested a delay.

Instead of a delay, the judge scheduled the hearing for Monday, September 27th, at 9:30 am. The defense agreed to the rescheduling.

(And, bluntly, given all their complaints about SIX MONTHS IS TOO LONG TO GET A SEARCH WARRANT I don't think they were in a position to yell much about this.)

My guess:

1. The motion about the cell phones is probably going to get thrown out on Monday, since the cell phones seem to be entirely irrelevant to the case the prosecution is making, and the defense can make their point - "anyone could have used the unsecured WiFi on the car lot! Any of those countless customers and employees! Anyone! Isn't it fortunate that our client was able to set up a Linux partition on his computer but wasn't able to secure the WiFi? WHAT ARE THE ODDS?" - without the cell phones. 

2. The judge may not issue any rulings on the other motions - or even the cell phone motion - on Monday, and I would not rule out the possibility of an additional, separate hearing on one or more of the motions, especially the Bit Torrent motion.  

[quarks]

48 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I have a totally uneducated question about the zip file. Could they argue Josh was actually downloading something legit that had CSA on it without Josh's knowledge and the government only has a partial file?

Well, the defense is currently arguing that the government can't prove that Josh downloaded anything, especially given that the car lot is an open place of business with countless employees and customers. (That's their description of the car lot, not mine.)

I suppose they could try to argue that Josh was just trying to download some nice Christian film and was just shocked, shocked that such an innocently titled zip file contained CSA. But I think that's a dangerous argument to make, because it forces them to admit that Josh did download CSA - the exact crime he's being accused of.  

[madpsych78]

8 hours ago, quarks said:

Well, the defense is currently arguing that the government can't prove that Josh downloaded anything, especially given that the car lot is an open place of business with countless employees and customers. (That's their description of the car lot, not mine.)

I suppose they could try to argue that Josh was just trying to download some nice Christian film and was just shocked, shocked that such an innocently titled zip file contained CSA. But I think that's a dangerous argument to make, because it forces them to admit that Josh did download CSA - the exact crime he's being accused of.  

The thing is, I don't think they can argue that Josh had no knowledge of CSA when one of the first questions Josh asked when investigators showed up at the car lot was "are you here about child pornography?" 

But, hypothetically speaking, if someone were to download files that they thought were innocent but which actually contained CSA, what would be the best action to take? Just report it to law enforcement and turn it in?

[GeeGolly]

I don't get the well traveled business argument. What about the millions of folks at Starbucks, the library, their workplaces, etc? Everyone is just lucky CSA hasn't somehow jumped into their computers?

[Churchhoney]

17 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

Well, I was referring to us here on the board. Too bad this country allows unmonitored “homeschooling” like these families do. Those kids aren’t getting what they deserve.

Oh, sorry. i thought the discussion was still mainly about whether Anna would leave. 

Anyway, yep, you're so right about homeschooling.  Unmonitored homeschooling is part of the vast thing we've allowed that's created their hideous world. We only started allowing unmonitored "homeschooling" when Christian dominionists and Christian nationalists and patriarchists like Rushdoony realized they could demand it. When you demand anything from the American government in the name of Christianity they hand it to you because they're afraid not to. And their shit eventually became a tsunami aimed at destroying the concept that anything "public," from public school to public transportation to public environmental regulations to public health is somehow lesser, crummy, and, by now, evil.  

That's why in my opinion the damn Duggars and the Bateses etc. etc. have never been something "interesting" and  cute to "snark" about on television but something fucking dangerous to put out there in the ultimate normalizing medium.

The more their horrors have become mainstreamed and people have said "oh, I don't agree with their beliefs, but they're harmless" and "they love their kids" and "I find them interesting to watch" the closer we go to Christianist fascism being one of our more popular ideologies and the one that's eager to destroy all the rest of us ostensibly in the name of Jeebus but actually in the name of a bunch of white guys who want to be little kings. 

It's horrible to see women and kids who are so enmeshed and entangled in that world that they can't imagine any good thing exists outside of it. But I'm pretty sure Anna is one of those who's so enmeshed. And who believes she's doing the very best thing for her kids by homeschooling them to be equally locked into it. Josh's crap notwithstanding. (can't help but remember Jessa's and Jill's -- it was just a little slyness, it was nothing, we never even noticed and it happens to just about every single family in our wonderful world!). 

Seems it'll all have to lose its hold on some people in the next Duggar generation. But that time isn't yet, I don't think. 

Edited September 25, 2021 by Churchhoney

[Churchhoney]

9 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Especially as the remainder of the zip file would be unlikely  to clear Josh of the charges. 

@quarks, do you know the status of the Oct 10th hearing?  Last I read, the defense was asking for a delay due to a conflict with an actual trial. 

I read somewhere that the judge moved it to September 27. But I don't remember where I saw that (Reddit?) -- or I was having a wishful thinking hallucination. 

ETA: oops. Day late....but at least I wasn't hallucinating. 

Edited September 25, 2021 by Churchhoney

[Fallacy]

21 minutes ago, madpsych78 said:

The thing is, I don't think they can argue that Josh had no knowledge of CSA when one of the first questions Josh asked when investigators showed up at the car lot was "are you here about child pornography?" 

But, hypothetically speaking, if someone were to download files that they thought were innocent but which actually contained CSA, what would be the best action to take? Just report it to law enforcement and turn it in?

I’m not sure it’s possible to “accidentally” download CSA as the average computer user. I think folks like Josh have to first do some research into where and how to get it. It’s not something the average person knows how to access. 

[Churchhoney]

9 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I don't get the well traveled business argument. What about the millions of folks at Starbucks, the library, their workplaces, etc? Everyone is just lucky CSA hasn't somehow jumped into their computers?

Just like their ridiculous Homeland Security appointee argument, they're just throwing everything they can devise at the wall. 

I'll never understand why it isn't better in a case like this to confine your arguments to the ones that make a modicum of sense rather than throwing in every vaguely conceivable thing, no matter how easy it is to argue against it. Seems to me too many arguments, with some of them clearly irrelevant or silly, actually would make you sound both desperate and -- worse -- annoying to the judge.  

[quarks]

2 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I don't get the well traveled business argument. What about the millions of folks at Starbucks, the library, their workplaces, etc? Everyone is just lucky CSA hasn't somehow jumped into their computers?

The defense is arguing that:

At a residence, occupants are static and visitors are infrequent, so law enforcement doesn't have to rush a search warrant since the people and the electronic devices at the resident at the time are probably still going to be there in six months

At a business, however, things are different - someone who pops into the local Starbucks is presumably not going to stick around for six months. So, the search warrants for businesses have to be issued quickly before that someone takes off - otherwise, the government does not have probable cause to search that business since the person probably left.  Also, the passage of time becomes more significant at a business than at a residence just because more people are going in and out, increasing the number of people with access to the internet services at that business, and increasing the chances that the devices that were doing the illegal activity will be removed from that business, because a customer isn't likely to leave a laptop/cellphone at someone else's business. 

So this is less trying to argue that CSA will jump into people's electronic devices in any well travelled business, and more a repeat of the argument that someone not named Josh Duggar could have downloaded the CSA, and by waiting to issue a search warrant for six months, the government failed to find devices owned by other people that could have proved that point, and did not have probable cause for the search warrant in the first place since people who might have been at the location at the time could be presumed to have left the location since they didn't live there.

It's all less an argument meant to establish innocence or guilt here, and more to argue that the warrant violated Josh's Fourth Amendment rights, and thus, was invalid. 

I'm not convinced - six months sounds reasonable to me for an investigation of this type, regardless of whether or not the search warrant was served on a residence or a business. But since the defense does seem to have some case law on their side here, and it's not the only argument in this motion, I would not be surprised to see an additional hearing on this motion. 

[Zella]

10 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I have a totally uneducated question about the zip file. Could they argue Josh was actually downloading something legit that had CSA on it without Josh's knowledge and the government only has a partial file?

I think his little journey to the dark web and the fact he kept those files for months would undermine that defense. I may be mistaken but I think they also have search terms he was using saved? 

Edited to add: not search terms but activity on websites associated with violent porn. 

Edited September 25, 2021 by Zella

[quarks]

33 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

Just like their ridiculous Homeland Security appointee argument, they're just throwing everything they can devise at the wall. 

I'll never understand why it isn't better in a case like this to confine your arguments to the ones that make a modicum of sense rather than throwing in every vaguely conceivable thing, no matter how easy it is to argue against it. Seems to me too many arguments, with some of them clearly irrelevant or silly, actually would make you sound both desperate and -- worse -- annoying to the judge.  

I don't think that three of the motions - the BitTorrent motion, the "OMG PLEASE DO NOT INTRODUCE JOSH'S INITIAL STATEMENTS TO FEDERAL INVESTIGATORS TO THE TRIAL" and the "yeah, let's toss out the pictures of Josh's hands" will annoy the judge.

It's extremely obvious why the defense wants those initial statements tossed out - those are not going to play well with a jury - and why the prosecution intends to use those statements at trial. So, relevant. The prosecution has also strongly implied that they will be using the booking pictures of Josh's hands, so, again, relevant. The BitTorrent motion is set against a background of current discussions about the limitations applied by the Fourth, Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments, and focuses on evidence/arguments that will be made at trial, so, relevant. Any later basis for an appeal probably will be based on this motion, so I can see the judge agreeing that they really need to get this one argued out prior to trial.

But I think the other two motions - the HSA and the cell phone motions - do have a chance of annoying the judge.  As it turns out, none of the cell phone owners were anywhere near the car lot on the day of the alleged crime, and no one can credibly argue that the HSA officials in question had any direct involvement in Josh's case. So their relevance is, to put it kindly, questionable. 

[Churchhoney]

10 minutes ago, quarks said:

I don't think that three of the motions - the BitTorrent motion, the "OMG PLEASE DO NOT INTRODUCE JOSH'S INITIAL STATEMENTS TO FEDERAL INVESTIGATORS TO THE TRIAL" and the "yeah, let's toss out the pictures of Josh's hands" will annoy the judge.

It's extremely obvious why the defense wants those initial statements tossed out - those are not going to play well with a jury - and why the prosecution intends to use those statements at trial. So, relevant. The prosecution has also strongly implied that they will be using the booking pictures of Josh's hands, so, again, relevant. The BitTorrent motion is set against a background of current discussions about the limitations applied by the Fourth, Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments, and focuses on evidence/arguments that will be made at trial, so, relevant. Any later basis for an appeal probably will be based on this motion, so I can see the judge agreeing that they really need to get this one argued out prior to trial.

But I think the other two motions - the HSA and the cell phone motions - do have a chance of annoying the judge.  As it turns out, none of the cell phone owners were anywhere near the car lot on the day of the alleged crime, and no one can credibly argue that the HSA officials in question had any direct involvement in Josh's case. So their relevance is, to put it kindly, questionable. 

Yeah, I totally agree. Very helpful post. Thanks.

I've never been talking about the motions in general, by the way. Most of them are obviously fine. But a couple of 'em....As you argue here...

[Cinnabon]

4 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

Oh, sorry. i thought the discussion was still mainly about whether Anna would leave. 

Anyway, yep, you're so right about homeschooling.  Unmonitored homeschooling is part of the vast thing we've allowed that's created their hideous world. We only started allowing unmonitored "homeschooling" when Christian dominionists and Christian nationalists and patriarchists like Rushdoony realized they could demand it. When you demand anything from the American government in the name of Christianity they hand it to you because they're afraid not to. And their shit eventually became a tsunami aimed at destroying the concept that anything "public," from public school to public transportation to public environmental regulations to public health is somehow lesser, crummy, and, by now, evil.  

That's why in my opinion the damn Duggars and the Bateses etc. etc. have never been something "interesting" and  cute to "snark" about on television but something fucking dangerous to put out there in the ultimate normalizing medium.

The more their horrors have become mainstreamed and people have said "oh, I don't agree with their beliefs, but they're harmless" and "they love their kids" and "I find them interesting to watch" the closer we go to Christianist fascism being one of our more popular ideologies and the one that's eager to destroy all the rest of us ostensibly in the name of Jeebus but actually in the name of a bunch of white guys who want to be little kings. 

It's horrible to see women and kids who are so enmeshed and entangled in that world that they can't imagine any good thing exists outside of it. But I'm pretty sure Anna is one of those who's so enmeshed. And who believes she's doing the very best thing for her kids by homeschooling them to be equally locked into it. Josh's crap notwithstanding. (can't help but remember Jessa's and Jill's -- it was just a little slyness, it was nothing, we never even noticed and it happens to just about every single family in our wonderful world!). 

Seem it'll all have to lose its hold on some people in the next Duggar generation. But that time isn't yet, I don't think. 

Yes, their hideous world has now become OUR hideous world . Regulations for homeschooling wouldn’t disallow religious education, but would ensure that kids learned the basics. I don’t know how basic math/English/history/geography, etc became so controversial. Kids in Catholic schools generally get excellent educations. 

4 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

Oh, sorry. i thought the discussion was still mainly about whether Anna would leave. 

Anyway, yep, you're so right about homeschooling.  Unmonitored homeschooling is part of the vast thing we've allowed that's created their hideous world. We only started allowing unmonitored "homeschooling" when Christian dominionists and Christian nationalists and patriarchists like Rushdoony realized they could demand it. When you demand anything from the American government in the name of Christianity they hand it to you because they're afraid not to. And their shit eventually became a tsunami aimed at destroying the concept that anything "public," from public school to public transportation to public environmental regulations to public health is somehow lesser, crummy, and, by now, evil.  

That's why in my opinion the damn Duggars and the Bateses etc. etc. have never been something "interesting" and  cute to "snark" about on television but something fucking dangerous to put out there in the ultimate normalizing medium.

The more their horrors have become mainstreamed and people have said "oh, I don't agree with their beliefs, but they're harmless" and "they love their kids" and "I find them interesting to watch" the closer we go to Christianist fascism being one of our more popular ideologies and the one that's eager to destroy all the rest of us ostensibly in the name of Jeebus but actually in the name of a bunch of white guys who want to be little kings. 

It's horrible to see women and kids who are so enmeshed and entangled in that world that they can't imagine any good thing exists outside of it. But I'm pretty sure Anna is one of those who's so enmeshed. And who believes she's doing the very best thing for her kids by homeschooling them to be equally locked into it. Josh's crap notwithstanding. (can't help but remember Jessa's and Jill's -- it was just a little slyness, it was nothing, we never even noticed and it happens to just about every single family in our wonderful world!). 

Seem it'll all have to lose its hold on some people in the next Duggar generation. But that time isn't yet, I don't think. 

Also - note those “white guys who want to be kings” usually DO get higher educations. It’s ok for them but not for the unwashed masses. 

[Temperance]

I believe Anna will leave Josh once a plea is entered or he has been found guilty. 

I wonder if Anna is on bedrest for the pregnancy. 

Anna said the baby was due in "fall" so I think she is still pregnant. It is fall though so she could have had the baby.

JB should take care of Anna and the kids regardless of the Josh situation. It's doesn't good for him to abandon his grandchildren and Anna knows a lot about his cult family. 

Still predicting this baby (M7) is going to be named Michelle.

[Nysha]

20 hours ago, Jeeves said:

20 hours ago, Nysha said:

Unless they move far far away, Mackynzie and Michael will probably learn all the gory details at school once it's known their father is Sex Pest. 

Don't forget, they don't - and won't -  go to school, so there's not even that to worry about for them in the near future. 

As long as Anna stays with JB or even goes to live with her parents that's true. But if she left to make it on her own, as many here think she should, she'll have to put the kids in public school b/c she'll either have to work or attend college and won't be able to afford a religious school for them.

I don't think Anna's ever going to leave because not only will she never admit that her husband is guilty, but she also cannot fathom a life outside of her religious safety net. I'm not going to judge her for the last one because it has been pounded into her psyche since the moment she was born. When Pest first got into trouble her parents and in-laws doubled down on staying firm. Given her dad came to 'minister' to Pest, I don't doubt he's as insistent as JB is that she stay with her husband. It's hard enough to overcome past mental abuse, but she's still being hammered by the people she loves and think love her. 

Edited September 25, 2021 by Nysha

[CandyCaneTree]

I would expect her naming the baby Michelle Jamie so she kisses ass to her inlaws outlaws.

[Cinnabon]

1 hour ago, Nysha said:

As long as Anna stays with JB or even goes to live with her parents that's true. But if she left to make it on her own, as many here think she should, she'll have to put the kids in public school b/c she'll either have to work or attend college and won't be able to afford a religious school for them.

I don't think Anna's ever going to leave because not only will she never admit that her husband is guilty, but she also cannot fathom a life outside of her religious safety net. I'm not going to judge her for the last one because it has been pounded into her psyche since the moment she was born. When Pest first got into trouble her parents and in-laws doubled down on staying firm. Given her dad came to 'minister' to Pest, I don't doubt he's as insistent as JB is that she stay with her husband. It's hard enough to overcome past mental abuse, but she's still being hammered by the people she loves and think love her. 

Lots of religious schools offer scholarships. Octomom’s 14 kids all got them.

[Quilt Fairy]

On 9/25/2021 at 12:20 AM, quarks said:

From my understanding, the hearing on these motions was originally scheduled for October 4, 2021. 

You're right @quarks, I don't know why I typed Oct 10th.  My bad. 

[CandyCaneTree]

7 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

Lots of religious schools offer scholarships. Octomom’s 14 kids all got them.

But religious schools are not the correct religion for her.

[linthia]

Regarding the multiple calls for Anna to write a tell-all to finance her escape from the cult: I am convinced Jim Bob is sly enough to have a pretty iron clad non-disclosure contract in place with everyone who has ever been involved with the Duggar family. And I am sure TLC is even slyer than he is and has their own signed contracts. They have spent and made a lot of money over the years maintaining the Duggar image. I imagine every book written so far had to be approved by Jim Bob and TLC. I would love to see a tell-all some day, but I don't see it happening.

[satrunrose]

I don't think TLC would try to stop a tell-all at this point unless it somehow implicated the network or production company. The number of TLC families that have had scandals is a dark joke at this point. Heck, I think scandals and shocking!! revelations are more or less the raison d'être for 90 Fiancée, their big money maker. 

Now JB, on the other hand... The tattered remans of their "wholesome family values" and the cute kids are the only media things keeping them going at this point. I'm quite sure that he either has NDAs (if he made Amy, who doesn't seem to know that much of interest in the first place, sign one, there's no way the woman at ground zero of all of the scandals hasn't) or has made a more or less explicit deal with Anna that she gets support for herself and the kids if she stays put and doesn't talk. 

[Dianaofthehunt]

Folks, what happens when Jim Boob dies?
Now think about that. Maybe not from old age, but keeling over from whatever.
What happens to the holy empire then?

[Zella]

Just now, Dianaofthehunt said:

What happens to the holy empire then?

Lord of the Flies, Duggar Style, has always been my guess. 

[Churchhoney]

15 minutes ago, Dianaofthehunt said:

Folks, what happens when Jim Boob dies?
Now think about that. Maybe not from old age, but keeling over from whatever.
What happens to the holy empire then?

split up, likely under no established plan, among a bunch of people, none of whom has been helped to develop the skills or the connections to actually run it.....And the "it" is an odd entity, I would bet, because I don't think much holds "it" together as one thing except for Jim Bob Ego Central.....

Meechelle gets the money first and all for herself, if she's still ticking when JB checks out.....And if she isn't.....and when she does stop ticking....even quite a bit of wealth split 19 ways doesn't give anybody a tremendous amount....especially when none of them are educated or truly stand on their own two feet career and money wise...and some of them have a gazillion kids.....(so here's hoping that only a very few have a gazillion kids -- although that would be a problem too, since they'd be absolutely certain they deserved more money than others....but would the others -- or the will -- go along with that? )

Continuing to depend -- for your livelihood and your sense of your self and of belonging -- on mommy and daddy into adulthood when you don't have to often works out kind of badly, even when the family business is a lot more coherent than this one is....

Edited September 26, 2021 by Churchhoney

[BigBingerBro]

Josh Duggar’s Trial: The 33-Year-Old Used Car Salesman’s Defense Team Will Be Back in Front of a Judge in a Matter of Days

[Churchhoney]

3 minutes ago, BigBingerBro said:

Josh Duggar’s Trial: The 33-Year-Old Used Car Salesman’s Defense Team Will Be Back in Front of a Judge in a Matter of Days

"YouTube content creator Emily D. Baker notes that while she doesn’t believe the arguments will stand up in court, they are creative"

Wonder if Josh and JB are delusional enough to think you get points for this.