Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[Fuzzysox]

Maybe you can lock this thread because it's a lot to digest for all of us.

[ChicksDigScars]

..<Redacted>  also lives with <Redacted> grandfather Garrett.

I dunno.

 

Would MEEchelle have has any nieces from her side of the family that came down to visit? Nieces that lived with her parents? 

 

Garrett Ruark

 

Opps. Sorry, just saw the mod note. Never mind. 

Edited May 21, 2015 by ChicksDigScars

[Literata]

As much as I've snarked about this family, I'm very, very sad that things have gone down this way. Not sad for Boob and MEchelle, but sad for all the kids ... this is going to have a huge impact on all of them.

Edited May 21, 2015 by Literata

[Isthisok]

Page 28...looks like one of he victims has a grandfather named Garrett?

Garrett is Joseph's middle name. (ETA: Just saw that someone else already mentioned that).

Edited May 21, 2015 by Isthisok

[Ljohnson1987]

Something was eventually going to come out.  TLC cancelled Honey Boo Boo because of this. Hopefully the Duggars are done. Too bad Smugs can't be charged because the statute of limitations has run out.

[Bella]

We thought about locking the thread, quite frankly. But that always comes across as punitive, and no one has done anything wrong.

 

We'd like to go on the honor system and just trust you folks to continue doing what's right. This is a big, active forum, and I'm convinced that on a per capita or per post basis, it's one of the best in terms of people being respectful of each other, etc.

 

We'll likely hide (not delete) posts that don't go along with the request. Hiding gives us the option of restoring posts.

 

If you need to PM anyone about this, the mods are French Toast, Rhondinella, BigSkyGirl, and me. Our schedules vary, so if you feel the urge, you're best off writing to at least two of us.

 

EDIT FROM DAVE: I posted further up thread. Please read that before you carry on, thanks!

Edited May 21, 2015 by David T. Cole

[CofCinci]

What is authorized discussion material at this time?

[Literata]

Thanks for that. ^^^ I know we all appreciate the work you do.

[3 is enough]

Just looked at the story on the Fox News site and the updated story on MSN.  

The comments are beyond disturbing.  People are outraged that police reports involving a minor were accessed, saying that HIS rights were being abused!  Also a lot of "kids will be kids" comments.  

 

What is wrong with people?

 

ETA:  Just saw the mod note.  Think this is ok since I was just talking about other people's reactions. 

Edited May 21, 2015 by 3 is enough

[Bella]

What is authorized discussion material at this time?

 

Anything about Josh and Anna that does NOT involve the allegations that are popping up in the news.

 

Thanks for asking, btw.

 

EDIT FROM DAVE: I posted further up thread. Please read that before you carry on, thanks!

Edited May 21, 2015 by David T. Cole

[Cherrio]

Joseph's middle name is Garrett. Michele's father? I don't remember her maiden name.

Michelles fathers name was Garrett Ruark.     

 

I just looked it up.

 

I did not see the mod note before I posted. Sorry

Edited May 21, 2015 by Cherrio

[Happyfatchick]

I quoted myself earlier today from last week, implying that the Duggars needed to spill some dirt to secure their spot with the Willis family on board.

I'm sorry. I take it back. I don't want dirt after all. Not this dirt.

[David T. Cole]

Hey, David (aka Glark) here.

 

The police report is public and legally obtained by InTouch so I have no issues with its provenance. We only ask for a respectful conversation. Please qualify your opinions and remember these are kids we are talking about. Creepy people will be ejected. Thanks.

[Isthisok]

So does that mean we can continue now?

[David T. Cole]

Yep.

[frenchtoast]

Thanks Dave!

 

As Bella said, it has been respectful, thoughtful and cautious. We really do appreciate it. You may resume discussion keeping in mind what Dave said and that this is just an altogether terrible situation.

 

And now, I'm going to go hug my kids and make sure they know I love them.

[sandyskyblue]

Story is now on Fox News on line

http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2015/05/21/duggar-sibling-sexually-assaulted-sisters-another-female-according-to-police-report/

[Literata]

The only way I see the Duggars salvaging anything from this is if they were to speak honestly about it, admit their failures, and show remorse ... but at the same time, there's no justifying the fact that they didn't find help for the kids. And it's also not reasonable to expect them to admit failure because I'm sure that in their eyes, they didn't fail.

 

This has to be just devastating for TLC. IIRC, there's another Duggar marathon scheduled for tonight.

[farmgal4]

I haven't read all of your comments yet, so I may be repeating what has already been said but this may be the beginning of the end for the Duggar fame and fortune. I would love to be a fly on the wall in both Jim Boob's and Josh's house right now.

[natyxg]

The only way I see the Duggars salvaging anything from this is if they were to speak honestly about it, admit their failures, and show remorse ... but at the same time, there's no justifying the fact that they didn't find help for the kids. And it's also not reasonable to expect them to admit failure because I'm sure that in their eyes, they didn't fail.

 

There is no way they would do that, speak honestly about it. At the most they will probably talk about their relationship with god and his forgiveness and whatever. I guess they may still be somebody in their conservative circles after this, but they are DONE in mainstream america, I think.

[CofCinci]

Cheapo Jim Bob is probably writing his first check to a crisis PR team right now.

[Spencer Hastings]

There's really no way to come back from this. I'm also kind of torn because while bad behavior shouldn't be rewarded, I would feel bad for the innocent children involved in this if the show were cancelled. TLC is their livelihood and they have been allowed no other skills or ways to support themselves aside from this show. By taking that paycheck away from them, it would kind of feel like they were being punished for being victims when they were children. I also think that this show kind of keeps JB and Michelle in check and I'd hate to see the little kids have to endure real JB and Michelle as the older kids had to.

Edited May 21, 2015 by Spencer Hastings

[Saylii]

Reading over the documents, it sounds like 3 sisters, Amy, and maybe a third party that's not Duggar blood that also lived in Springdale.  #17 refers to a person that is a) not Jim Bob or Michelle's child and b) has parents, plural.  It would also make sense that a separate party would be the one to go to the judge to ask for document destruction.  I would assume that TLC and Jim Bob are quickly pulling the reins in on Duggar blood and wouldn't let any of them go to court, including Amy.

[Spencer Hastings]

I would bet that the non-Duggar victim went to have the documents destroyed. At this point she is an adult who has had the freedom of living her life uninterrupted until today. I wouldn't blame her one bit for not wanting any attention from this. It would surely disrupt her life.

Edited May 21, 2015 by Spencer Hastings

[autumnh]

I am not taking the blame off of the Duggars at ALL...but this is what happens when you allow a single male who has never been married OR had a relationship dictate to you how your relationship/family life should be like (talking about Gothard)...such a cult...most normal, rational people would say oh hell no.

[riverblue22]

Someone posted elsewhere that during this time the daughter of a family friend was staying with them.  Could that have been one of the Holt girls?  Which house were they living in at this time?  I can't imagine any extra people in their old house as small as it was.

[Foghorn Leghorn]

Does this explain why we saw few if any friends over at the house.  None of the girls seemed to have girlfriends until they magically showed up for a wedding.

[galax-arena]

All those bigwigs and politicians are gonna drop him like a hot potato now.

 

God knows I loathe Josh and have long wanted him to go up in flames, but this wasn't what I had in mind.... 

[truthtalk2014]

I'm sure the Bateses are horribly alarmed about this as well. And the Dillards, and Seewalds, and Jacksons...

And you just know the girls were somehow implicated for "defrauding" their brother.

Wow!-  What a thought provoking post.  I'm sure Gil and Kelly are questioning their kids at this moment.  

 

ETA:  I seriously keep wondering if this was the reason for all the tension in the room during the last episode.  Did they know it was coming?  

Edited May 21, 2015 by truthtalk2014

[BitterApple]

Literata, IIRC the same thing happened in the Elizabeth Smart case where the parents had the flippant attitude of "oh she's home now and back in church so it's all gravy." I'm a hugely spiritual person and believe in the power of prayer but there's a reason why God created psychologists and therapists. You don't have to choose either or.

Oddly enough I think the show being cancelled would do even more damage to the girls. They'd likely blame themselves for the loss of their family's livelihood and I'm not sure the rest of the family wouldn't blame them as well.

[ChocolateAddict]

Well I was completely wrong.  I honestly just thought that it was a "maybe a grain of truth" type story where Josh kissed a girl in her bedroom or something.  I never, ever would have guessed that not only was it true but it was incest and fondling.  Josh has always come across as creepy to me (something about his smile) but I just passed it off as Duggar-weirdness and his smug attitude.  This sort of explains why I always got an "off" vibe from him. 
But those poor girls!  They have suffered so many times.  Being abused, seeing Josh have no real consequences, having to LIVE with him and now seeing the whole terrible mess played out on a national/international level.  Here is hoping that someone put some of the TLC cash aside because that sort of therapy doesn't come cheap!
There are absolutely no winners here and Boob and Mechelle only have themselves to blame.  It is making me so bloody mad that they have deprived their children of the right to see justice for their abuse and have swept it under the carpet.  Those girls deserved so much better.

[CofCinci]

All those bigwigs and politicians are gonna drop him like a hot potato now.

God knows I loathe Josh and have long wanted him to go up in flames, but this wasn't what I had in mind....

He was so quick to shame the LGBTQ. Now he'll personally experience the pain of discrimination for the first time.

[Emme]

I find it telling that we all pretty much agree there was a seriously weird vibe going on during that interview. Jill especially came off as very strained, like she didn't have enough time to properly rehearse her lines and was afraid of messing up. I swear, whichever Duggar kid has the smarts to write a tell-all is going to make bank. The crazy in that family runs deep.

What is the video you are referring to in your post? Thanks.

[awaken]

WOW.  I read a little about this on here last night, but dismissed it as idle tabloid gossip since we're in a wedding/baby lull.  Just saw the news reports today, and I have to say, I am STUNNED.  

 

I feel horrible for Anna and the kids most of all.  Imagine how she must feel right now, with either learning this about her husband, OR seeing the world learn it and the media frenzy that is full on.  I am so curious to know if she and her parents knew, and how much, when they were courting.  And if they knew, how they worked it out so that Josh was deemed ok to marry.

 

JB HAD to know it would come out one day, and they all must have been living in fear that one day it would be leaked and the gig would be up.  I bet he was thinking by now it was water under the bridge and they were home free.  

 

Oh how the mighty have fallen.  

[Fuzzysox]

 Let's see when Josh turns in his resignation letter. My bets would be tomorrow because it't the day before a holiday weekend and most people are getting busy to head out and not really interested in the news. 

[GEML]

I wish I could say that the Bates and the Kellers were completely alarmed, but who were the "church elders" that Jim Bob went to? If Anna didn't know before her marriage, there is at least a fairly decent chance that her father did. As did Gil Bates. This is a small world, and these are people close to the top. The Wallers almost certainly know.

The Seewalds and Jacksons certainly do not, as the come from other Fundy subsets. And the poor Dillard's must be wandering out in right field with all of us about now.

[PopTart16]

Who knows what happened if anything.

But TMZ using the word Allegedly and no lawyers willing to the the case and there was  no case.

Police reports mean nothing...hearsay at this point..it's not evidence of a crime.

Anyone can make in a police report about anything. 

If nothing came of it then, what is going to come of it ten years later?

Ummm.no. It is not hearsay, there were accusations and an admission of guilt, nothing came of it because time ran out for the crime to be tried in court. The report makes it clear:Josh touched his sisters in inappropriate ways, and his parents solution was to send him off to remodel a house instead of making sure he got much needed help. Josh was 14 when he did this, old enough to know it was wrong, especially in a family where even hugging is sinful, and he did it more than once, that's no accident. Josh is a predator.

[awaken]

Well I was completely wrong.  I honestly just thought that it was a "maybe a grain of truth" type story where Josh kissed a girl in her bedroom or something.  I never, ever would have guessed that not only was it true but it was incest and fondling.  Josh has always come across as creepy to me (something about his smile) but I just passed it off as Duggar-weirdness and his smug attitude.  This sort of explains why I always got an "off" vibe from him. 

But those poor girls!  They have suffered so many times.  Being abused, seeing Josh have no real consequences, having to LIVE with him and now seeing the whole terrible mess played out on a national/international level.  Here is hoping that someone put some of the TLC cash aside because that sort of therapy doesn't come cheap!

There are absolutely no winners here and Boob and Mechelle only have themselves to blame.  It is making me so bloody mad that they have deprived their children of the right to see justice for their abuse and have swept it under the carpet.  Those girls deserved so much better.

 

I never imagined it was something this serious, when I kept reading rumors of his "failed courtship" and "needing to be married off".   I just assumed it was a typical teenage crush that they were making a mountain out of a molehill of.

 

He was so quick to shame the LGBTQ. Now he'll personally experience the pain of discrimination for the first time.

 

Absolutely.  He is so quick to accuse others of being sinful deviants when he knew this about himself all along.

[natyxg]

Ummm.no. It is not hearsay, there were accusations and an admission of guilt, nothing came of it because time ran out for the crime to be tried in court. The report makes it clear:Josh touched his sisters in inappropriate ways, and his parents solution was to send him off to remodel a house instead of making sure he got much needed help. Josh was 14 when he did this, old enough to know it was wrong, especially in a family where even hugging is sinful, and he did it more than once, that's no accident. Josh is a predator.

 

I was trying to figure out how to say pretty much this. My thoughts exactly.

[CalamitysChild]

Not sure if I should post this here or in the general chat topic, but I just want to comment quickly with some resources. Sometimes, when these stories hit the media, it's triggering to past or present abuse survivors, and/or it can encourage survivors to come forward and look for support. Feel free to remove if this is totally inappropriate.

RAINN (Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network) is an amazing organization. Please don't hesitate to reach out to them at their website (RAINN.org) for their online hotline and information on local resources, or through their telephone hotline, listed there as well.

I don't even know what else to say.

[farmgal4]

Not sure if I should post this here or in the general chat topic, but I just want to comment quickly with some resources. Sometimes, when these stories hit the media, it's triggering to past or present abuse survivors, and/or it can encourage survivors to come forward and look for support. Feel free to remove if this is totally inappropriate.

RAINN (Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network) is an amazing organization. Please don't hesitate to reach out to them at their website (RAINN.org) for their online hotline and information on local resources, or through their telephone hotline, listed there as well.

I don't even know what else to say.

Is RAINN the organization that Tori Amos is very involved in?

[Saylii]

I would surmise that Pa Keller knew if Jim Bob really came out to the church elders.  If you read Josh & Anna's story on their website (elaborated, I'm sure), they make it seem like Anna was infatuated by seeing him on TV and then met the Duggars at an ATI conference.  After the conference, she felt the call of God to be with Josh.  This was early 2006.  Then Pa Keller and Jim Bob kept setting up meets until they started courting in 2007/2008.  I would guess that Pa Keller knew exactly what was going on in Dec 2006 when everyone was investigated, but his daughter wanted to marry Josh and Jim Bob wanted somebody to marry Josh.

 

It also makes sense as to why we thought Josh & Anna had a separate TV contract from the Jim Bob Duggar LLC.  I bet Jim Bob doesn't say no to anything Pa Keller asks of him on Anna's behalf.

[CofCinci]

Anyone in here a lawyer? How are they able to arrest priests decades after abuse but couldn't arrest Josh because the 3-year statute of limitation had passed? So confusing.

[Rhondinella]

When does everyone think TLC will make an announcement? Tomorrow or on Tuesday after the holiday?

 

 

Friday, which, as we all learned from The West Wing, is "Take Out the Trash Day."  And the Friday before a 3-day weekend is the equivalent to what we in my neighborhood call "Big Trash Day" when they come and take any large junk items, lawn detritus, etc. you need to get rid of.  

 

First, before Josh got married, he drove to Florida with the four oldest girls to help Anna with the bridesmaids' dresses.  How uncomfortable was THAT drive, and how could JB and Michelle let them go alone with Josh, knowing what had happened?

 

 

I don't want to go into great detail, but as someone who was abused by a close family member (fondling, not rape--not that the distinction necessarily ameliorated the emotional consequences) from a much earlier age than these girls, let me say that girls in this kind of situation usually don't have any other choice.  I mean, I had to continually interact with my abuser for many, many years afterwards, because it was a family member who I couldn't avoid completely (I didn't tell my mother, or anyone, until I was in college).  So, yes, I was alone with him many times after the events.  What choice did I have?  As my counselor has said to me, any option available to me was a bad one.  Report a close family member to the police and have to deal with the traumatic public, practical and emotional fallout?  Would that be any better? I guess in the sense of possibly not being molested any more, but it's not an alternative anyone would look forward to.

 

So I guess I'm saying I completely understand that these girls really had no choice but to find a way to live with their abuser for years after the fact.  Many abused women do.  You cope.  You have to.  You use certain mechanisms that get you through, but permanently alter your psyche. 

 

Now as to JB and Michelle's part in all this . . . . THEY ARE OFFICIALLY THE WORST PEOPLE EVER AND DEAD TO ME.

[galax-arena]

He was so quick to shame the LGBTQ. Now he'll personally experience the pain of discrimination for the first time.

Yeah, I just wish it had been his anti-LGBTQ bigotry or his all-around stupidity that led to his downfall. Not child abuse.     :-\

 

Remember how Michelle likened all transgender people to child molesters? Yeah, about that....

Edited May 21, 2015 by galax-arena

[neural-plasticity]

maybe if their show was canceled at least one of the girls would finally have the guts to leave ( in a perfect world they all would...). That's my hopeful thinking. I just can't see how they will talk their way out of this now.

Edited May 21, 2015 by neural-plasticity

[StaceyNotStacie]

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20925368,00.html?xid=socialflow_facebook_peoplemag

 

Josh is resigning from FRC.

[dillpickles]

I quoted myself earlier today from last week, implying that the Duggars needed to spill some dirt to secure their spot with the Willis family on board.

I'm sorry. I take it back. I don't want dirt after all. Not this dirt.

I love it when you post, just saying. But, i don't want this either. Nopenopenope. And the nerve of josh to complain about house sizes like this!

[Fuzzysox]

Friday, which, as we all learned from The West Wing, is "Take Out the Trash Day."  And the Friday before a 3-day weekend is the equivalent to what we in my neighborhood call "Big Trash Day" when they come and take any large junk items, lawn detritus, etc. you need to get rid of.  

Yep most PR peeps live to announce stuff on Friday before a holiday so people won't be paying too much attention. No amount of eye bleach can ever ever make Josh look good to us after this revelation. The best the Duggars can do is to quietly go away. 

[neural-plasticity]

I would surmise that Pa Keller knew if Jim Bob really came out to the church elders. If you read Josh & Anna's story on their website (elaborated, I'm sure), they make it seem like Anna was infatuated by seeing him on TV and then met the Duggars at an ATI conference. After the conference, she felt the call of God to be with Josh. This was early 2006. Then Pa Keller and Jim Bob kept setting up meets until they started courting in 2007/2008. I would guess that Pa Keller knew exactly what was going on in Dec 2006 when everyone was investigated, but his daughter wanted to marry Josh and Jim Bob wanted somebody to marry Josh.

It also makes sense as to why we thought Josh & Anna had a separate TV contract from the Jim Bob Duggar LLC. I bet Jim Bob doesn't say no to anything Pa Keller asks of him on Anna's behalf.

and here a lot of people thought Anna hit the jackpot compared to the rest of her sisters when it comes to husbands .....