Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[mizkat]

One of the biggest injustices that I think JB and Mechelle have done to their kids is not taught them how to cope with the world they live in. You can't live like it's the 1800's in 2015 and expect to get through life without learning to cope with wants, desires, fantasies....etc. etc. That part of your brain is so heavily influenced by your childhood that all of the Duggars children are essentially screwed, Josh is just the first to fall.

 

I'll add to this--I think it's worse than just not being able to cope with contemporary attitudes about sex and love and marriage. Sex wasn't demonized in the 1800s, it just wasn't talked about in polite society, therefore daily life wasn't hypersexualized like life in the Duggar household is. The messages and actions in that household are so mixed up and hypocritical, how can any of them have a normal outlook on anything? Sex and desire forcefully repressed by two people that are constantly a) having sex b) having babies c) THEIR PARENTS. Its a disastrous tapestry they've woven that only years of therapy can unravel--and we know that ain't happening any time soon. 

[Tabbygirl521]

I'll add to this--I think it's worse than just not being able to cope with contemporary attitudes about sex and love and marriage. Sex wasn't demonized in the 1800s, it just wasn't talked about in polite society, therefore daily life wasn't hypersexualized like life in the Duggar household is. The messages and actions in that household are so mixed up and hypocritical, how can any of them have a normal outlook on anything? Sex and desire forcefully repressed by two people that are constantly a) having sex b) having babies c) THEIR PARENTS. Its a disastrous tapestry they've woven that only years of therapy can unravel--and we know that ain't happening any time soon.

I never watched the show except little bits here and there, so I am still in ultra-shocked mode about some of their weirdness. The "in your face" sexual behavior is juvenile, embarrassing, and - under their circumstances - really kind of hostile to the kids. The kids, who are not only forbidden to engage in certain benign behaviors like playing with an opposite-sex sib, but also from even thinking about sex lest you Have Desires. You aren't even supposed to think about it! But suddenly one day you get married, and have your first kiss and first sex in one day. When you haven't even been allowed to imagine what it might be like. I know that in reality, they most likely all DO think about it - who doesn't? But imagine the guilt mixed with normal desire. What a mess!

The kids being encouraged to keep track of Michelle's cycle, with JB's a accompanying leering face and "hey hey hey" is absolutely disgusting.

And nothing will ever top dry-humpin' minigolf. It's all the rage. Seriously, if my husband did that to me, especially in the "capture you from behind and you can't get loose" kind of way, he'd be spitting out teeth.

I grew up in the Sixties and Seventies and I have pretty damn open attitudes about lots of stuff. But the Duggars are just all kinds of messed up about sex.

[camom]

I'm not sure a lawsuit against Joshie for something he did at age 14 or so would be successful.  Now if this happened after the incidents with his sisters, I'd sue Jim Bob and Michelle.  That would be interesting.

Edited September 15, 2015 by camom

[3 is enough]

Regarding the house, lots of states have homestead provisions where your home cannot be included in any type of lawsuit filed against you.  Don't know if Arkansas has anything like this available.

[3girlsforus]

The kids being encouraged to keep track of Michelle's cycle, with JB's a accompanying leering face and "hey hey hey" is absolutely disgusting.

 

 

This is right up there on the 'barf-o-meter'. Tracking your own mother's cycle with a focus on 'Dad - time to hump Mom tonight' is just vile. There is just so much stunted development in Duggarland. No one in either generation seems to have matured past jr. high. And even that's generous. Can't really tell with Grandma but since she doesn't speak up about it or do anything different I can't see that she's a whole lot better. 

[Lemur]

I'm not sure a lawsuit against Joshie for something he did at age 14 or so would be successful.  Now if this happened after the incidents with his sisters, I'd sue Jim Bob and Michelle.  That would be interesting.

 

I'm pretty sure a civil litigation could indeed be successful, especially based on a police report and other public admissions of guilt.  I'd say there's an 80-20 chance the person who's name was redacted from the police report could get a favorable decision from either a judge or a jury.  I don't think any other person who was not included in that police report could though.  The question I have, and it's procedural, is who would the respondents to such a suit be?  Josh or his parents?  

Edited September 15, 2015 by Lemur

[3girlsforus]

Hell No! I hope this doesn't happen. Anna is the mother of those children. She is responsible for them. The J'slaves need to focus on themselves and what they want and need, not the needs of the group. They will start employing the lost girls. Not fair. Damn cult.

 

I get what you are saying but I think this is a different situation than Anna just wanting to dump her kids off on someone else. She had kids with the understanding that she also had a husband with a job. Now she's alone. I venture to guess that if you had a close friend or family member whose husband was unexpectedly gone for 6 months, leaving behind 4 young kids one of which is a newborn you wouldn't begrudge her some help, especially in the early days of his departure. The idea that Anna had these kids so it's up to her alone to deal is akin to saying Josh's behavior is her fault. 

 

I'm not saying a Duggar sister should be enslaved to Anna permanently, but I have no problem with them helping her for a while. Besides, lets look at the other options. Take Jana, her choices are - live in the TTH and take care of all the kids still at home, deal with JB/Chelle, and be watched 24/7 or move in with Anna, help her with her kids, provide her some companionship, and be as close to 'out of the house' as she's going to get.

[sometimesy]

I'm not sure a lawsuit against Joshie for something he did at age 14 or so would be successful.  Now if this happened after the incidents with his sisters, I'd sue Jim Bob and Michelle.  That would be interesting.

It would be karma if JB purposed to keep all the money and property in his name and HE is the one who gets sued. It also wouldn't be a surprise if Josh is expected to pay for his recovery because it was one of their key points in the Fox debacle. JB does have a judge friend who might be giving free advice. Josh is in a really shitty situation: he is not really employable, he has a wife that wouldn't consider working, he has no education, 4 kids to support, his father controls him and it's all done publically. Redemption tour in 5 months.

[Julia]

And given a choice between living with Anna in a clean house with four children and living in the Duggar house with a dozen more than that, I'm guessing the girls would probably volunteer.

[SometimesBites]

And nothing will ever top dry-humpin' minigolf. It's all the rage. Seriously, if my husband did that to me, especially in the "capture you from behind and you can't get loose" kind of way, he'd be spitting out teeth.

I grew up in the Sixties and Seventies and I have pretty damn open attitudes about lots of stuff. But the Duggars are just all kinds of messed up about sex.

Because these words cannot only be posted once. So many yeses to spitting out teeth.

[3girlsforus]

And given a choice between living with Anna in a clean house with four children and living in the Duggar house with a dozen more than that, I'm guessing the girls would probably volunteer.

 

We've already seen that Anna's kids are more normal and better behaved than the Duggar kids so it probably feels like a major vacation for any of the girls to be there without JB/Chele, especially now that Josh isn't there. 

[NEGirl]

As to the law suit, Josh was a minor aged 14 & 15 at the time of the offenses. I do not think he can be sued. However, JB and Mechelle are his parents and apparently did nothing to warn or protect the 5th victim. They knew of Josh's past behavior. I would guess they are the one who would be sued. Hopefully, for a pretty penny too.

 

I would not begrudge  Anna having Jana or Jinger to help her at this time. She has shown herself to be a loving mother who takes care of her kids. Her home is clean, the kids are well behaved and do not looking like orphans. I would bet that given the choice they would run to help Anna and not be at the TTH.

Edited September 15, 2015 by NEGirl

[queenanne]

I dunno, don't you guys think that Anna and a sister-mom walled up together would talk?  

 

I mean, if I know anything about young women, and I think I do having been one myself, I don't know how you'd stop them, or each other.  I should think the urge to gossip and share would be nigh-insurmountable.  

 

It'd be a great thing for them TO talk honestly about the issue I think, don't get me wrong, but I also don't see the parental hegemony allowing this either.  Going together to Target doesn't count, I doubt I'd string two honest words together in public were I they, knowing I might get papped or ratted out by my fellow shoppers, with audio.

Edited September 16, 2015 by queenanne

[kokapetl]

Might be a bit awkward.

[JenCarroll]

I dunno, don't you guys think that Anna and a sister-mom walled up together would talk?  

 

I mean, if I know anything about young women, and I think I do having been one myself, I don't know how you'd stop them, or each other.  I should think the urge to gossip and share would be nigh-insurmountable.  

 

It'd be a great thing for them TO talk honestly about the issue I think, don't get me wrong, but I also don't see the parental hegemony allowing this either.  Going together to Target doesn't count, I doubt I'd string two honest words together in public were I they, knowing I might get papped or ratted out by my fellow shoppers, with audio.

They'd probably insist on one of the howlers going along with the sistermom, just to prevent this.

[3girlsforus]

I dunno, don't you guys think that Anna and a sister-mom walled up together would talk?  

 

I mean, if I know anything about young women, and I think I do having been one myself, I don't know how you'd stop them, or each other.  I should think the urge to gossip and share would be nigh-insurmountable.  

 

It'd be a great thing for them TO talk honestly about the issue I think, don't get me wrong, but I also don't see the parental hegemony allowing this either.  Going together to Target doesn't count, I doubt I'd string two honest words together in public were I they, knowing I might get papped or ratted out by my fellow shoppers, with audio.

 

Yea - and this is one reason I really hope it happens. My original comment hoping this would happen was in response to someone who said Anna needs to raise her own kids and not have a j'slave. But I really hope it happens, not because I want to see the j'slaves continued in their indentured servitude, but because Anna needs help and companionship and the j'slaves need some semblance of privacy and connection with another person without JB/Chelle. Of course that's exactly why it probably won't happen.

 

But the reality here is that JB/Chelle are between a rock and a hard place. If Anna and her kids aren't living in the TTH then there are two options. Either Anna gets to live alone without a chaperone or a headship and more free to have contact with people like her brother who might be able to get her to think a bit or they send  one of the girls to live with her and they might start talking truthfully to each other without JB to pull the little string to tell them what to say. Either way, it could be a really good thing. 

[Barb23]

I also just watched the whole scene where Josh Skype's Anna's father, asking his permission to court Anna, whom he had barely met at the water cooler at a previous ATI camping trip in Big Sandy. Mr.Keller agrees, saying God laid it on his heart that Josh Was The One. So Josh shows up in Florida, on Anna's birthday, in a restaurant, to propose. What I Just Can't Get Over is listening to Josh Giggle, Giggle, Giggle, over and over. He giggled like a little girl! He was just SO confident that Anna would say YES.

Yes, Josh was confident. IIRC, on the episode where Ben skypes them about asking Jessa to marry him, Anna made a big deal that Ben seemed over confident Jessa would say "Yes". Anna told Josh that she (Anna) should have told Josh "No" to throw him off when he asked her since he was confident too. I don't think the 20 yr old Anna would have ever done that, even if she was kidding. She was so happy to be asked by THE Josh Duggar she would have never done anything to jeopardize that.

[dillpickles]

We as a society need to stop perpetuating the dangerous idea that college-aged men are allowed to treat women like shit as a part of their maturation process. Rape culture is real.

No one implied that women where going to be treated like trash. The point was if Josh was allowed to have casual sex with consenting adult women, he might not have been the way he is now.

[bigskygirl]

If Josh has a serious addiction letting him have casual sex before marriage would not have solve his problems. And the sad fact is men or women who had normal parents and childhoods can end up with sexual addictions which leads to porn, cheating, hooking up with others just to try to satisfy their needs. Imo, I think Josh probably would ended up with this way even if he had a normal childhood and parents.

[Easyspreestep]

If Josh has a serious addiction letting him have casual sex before marriage would not have solve his problems. And the sad fact is men or women who had normal parents and childhoods can end up with sexual addictions which leads to porn, cheating, hooking up with others just to try to satisfy their needs. Imo, I think Josh probably would ended up with this way even if he had a normal childhood and parents.

There is no evidence Josh has a serious addiction, all the evidence points to Josh just needing a healthy way to explore sex.  Touching young girls as a teenager was wrong, but would he have done that if his parents allowed him to go to a normal school meet girls his age and have contact with girls.  I don't know the answer to that, but he has not touch young girls since his marriage (that we know of).  All the reports now are of Josh using age appropriate prostitutes wrong but maybe if he was allowed to be a young single guy just dating and having consensual sex with a partner he would not need the prostitutes.  

Edited September 16, 2015 by Easyspreestep

[leighdear]

JB and Michelle can't be everywhere and with everybody at all times.  I'm betting that while none of the J-girls probably want to talk about Anna's sex life with Josh, some of the older ones spend time with her without being snoop-sisters.  For all their dullness and mouthing the Gothard lines, I think Jana, Jinger & Joy are nice girls and probably all cut Anna some slack on her "being sweet" requirements when they're away from the judging eyes of JB and Michelle. 

 

At least I hope it's that way.  But I don't know about Jill & Jessa.  They could be extra-judgy out of fear.

Edited September 16, 2015 by leighdear

[Julia]

I don't think someone who escalates to the genitals of a five-year-old for sexual gratification when his other victims become less easily available is acting out any form of normal psychosexual development.

[Lemur]

I don't want to psychoanalyze Josh because quite frankly, I'm not qualified and it's not like he's had a normal childhood or comes from normal genetic stock.  I just want to know where he's hiding out.  Is he really at Fundytown Rehab?  Is he holed up in one of JB's warehouses full of old, used clothes?  Has he flown the coop entirely?  Does Clown Car have a price out on his head?  *That's* what I want to know.

[DoctorWhovian]

There is no evidence Josh has a serious addiction, all the evidence points to Josh just needing a healthy way to explore sex.  Touching young girls as a teenager was wrong, but would he have done that if his parents allowed him to go to a normal school meet girls his age and have contact with girls.  I don't know the answer to that, but he has not touch young girls since his marriage (that we know of).  All the reports now are of Josh using age appropriate prostitutes wrong but maybe if he was allowed to be a young single guy just dating and having consensual sex with a partner he would not need the prostitutes.  

 

Hell, just an understanding that masturbation is totally normal and ok. 

[Churchhoney]

Hell, just an understanding that masturbation is totally normal and ok. 

 

Yeah, I agree. With all the Duggar kids, it's really hard to tell how they might behave differently if their perceptions of pretty much everything hadn't been warped in horrible ways from the very beginning. In that regard, I don't think the Josh situation is very different from the whole Jill-missionary flap that's going on. I find I can't really conclude much at all about the kids' ethics or levels of psychological warpedness or whatever because the basic ideas that were continually drummed into their heads from day one about things like sex and religion and money were just so so so so so messed up. The bases that they start from are just dead wrong in so many ways that it's hard to see what's at the root of their odd behavior as adults.

Edited September 17, 2015 by Churchhoney

[JoanArc]

Hell, just an understanding that masturbation is totally normal and ok.

Or an acknowledgement that adolescence actually exists.

[Anne Elk]

It's possible, maybe even probable, that Josh would have been an awful person no matter who brought him up. But I think the peculiarly sexual focus of his problems is the fault of the extreme patriarchal beliefs he was raised with. 

 

I'm sure it was terrible for him trying to go through adolescence surrounded by the mindfuck that is the Duggars' beliefs about sex. But the pattern he's established is that he just takes what he wants sexually no matter how wrong and hurtful it is to everyone around him. He gives public speeches about the proper way to respect women when his actions show that he obviously does not respect women at all. And that, I believe, is the result of being raised by parents and a culture with a mania for sexual purity, and the insistence that women are only godly and fulfilled when they are being totally controlled by men. Minus that, Josh is just another smug small-time grifter like Daddy. 

 

Josh did need to go through a normal adolescence. Not so much because he needed to be looking at porn or masturbating, but because that is when most boys learn that women are actually people and not things to be manipulated. An average teenager would have female friends or acquaintances, would be working and learning with women, would have gone on dates and would have seen how other men around him respect women as people. Josh got none of that. 

[GeeGolly]

The little bits of Gothard rhetoric I have read gives such conflicting messages about women. Men are supposed to revere and protect  women. Yet women should never say no to a man, nor be smarter or more successful than men. They suspend women in a childlike position and put all the pressure on the man to make all decisions and financially support the family. 

 

So not only are they not socialized properly, they are sent continuous idiotic (IMO) messages regarding women and sex. Their fragile egos are so protected that when they're exposed to the real world they can't make sense of all these capable strong woman who rely on no one but themselves, which in the end must emasculate the Gothard males.

 

And what better way for the emasculated man to prove to himself that he is THE man but by acting out sexually.

[Quilt Fairy]

Hell, just an understanding that masturbation is totally normal and ok. 

This subject always reminds me of a very dramatic scene in the movie Kinsey where Kinsey's rigid, authoritarian father agrees to be interviewed about his sex history and describes how he had a 'particular problem' as a young boy (circa 1900) which was 'cured' by putting him in a leather harness so he could not access certain parts of his body. Anyone else know the scene I'm talking about? It's chilling.

[Micks Picks]

And when the marriage ends for whatever reason, including death of the husband, what then?  If I was a single man I would not be looking for a used up widow with however many kids.  Why would I?  So now what is she to do?  Put the kids in day care and work at the mustang ranch?  Maybe this is how we get polygamy.  The brother is expected to care for the wife.  Happened in the bible.  But it makes nobody happy.  Not even the Islamic crowd.  Things get kind of tight.  They have not in their world established plural marriage, as seen in several shows I believe on TLC.  One show was actually quite good but only did one season.  Darn.

The name may have been Polygamy USA and they had to pay to have water come from their nearest plug town or go there and pump it themselves.  Then even though they were related to everybody in the other town, and in fact used to be the same people and practiced polygamy just the same, they were followed and spied upon.  

Jim Bob has quite a nice thing going and may in the end start up with the beginnings of a system that bears some relationship to this.  One Dugger no good, fine plenty more unmarried sons.  Take the woman whether you want her or not.  Intersting from a sociological, anthropological perspective.

Edited September 18, 2015 by Micks Picks

[CofCinci]

Friday night RU broadcast!

[lulee]

What's the over/under on Josh serving his whole sentence -- I mean staying the stated length of pray-the-extracurricular-lays-away rehab?

[CofCinci]

What's the over/under on Josh serving his whole sentence -- I mean staying the stated length of pray-the-extracurricular-lays-away rehab?

Josh will stay as long as his daddy wants him to stay.

[Fuzzysox]

R U ready for tonight's episode of longer and deeper bible belting with a rehab purpose??

[Lemur]

Josh will stay as long as his daddy wants him to stay.

 

Is he actually there?  Did we confirm this and I missed it?

[JoanArc]

 

The brother is expected to care for the wife.  Happened in the bible.  But it makes nobody happy.  Not even the Islamic crowd.

Muslim polygamy came as a result of many of the men being killed, and the women needing honorable protection. Not that bad really, but definitely not going to fly in the modern world.

[Defrauder]

I think Josh has good reason to tell JB to F-off only because Josh spent his entire childhood crammed into the original house with 14 plus kids sharing 2 bedrooms, plus Josh being the oldest boy put in the most amount of work on the TTH and got the least benefit from it.  Not a Josh fan and not a JB fan but I don't see why Josh wouldn't tell JB to get the F out of his life - except that Josh has been instructed that he must honor his father and mother or burn in hell.  

[Oldernowiser]

Josh will stay as long as his daddy wants him to stay.

Sometimes I get this image of JimBob and Josh headlocked in an endless codependent cycle of coercion. JB threatens to cut him off without a dime if Josh doesn't finish Jesus Redemption school. Then Josh threatens to tell the world about how life really was growing up in Duggarland. Rinse, repeat. They need each other, if they're ever again going to have a tiny hope of getting the easy money...but I wouldn't be at all surprised if by now they also loathe each other.

[Churchhoney]

I think Josh has good reason to tell JB to F-off only because Josh spent his entire childhood crammed into the original house with 14 plus kids sharing 2 bedrooms, plus Josh being the oldest boy put in the most amount of work on the TTH and got the least benefit from it.  Not a Josh fan and not a JB fan but I don't see why Josh wouldn't tell JB to get the F out of his life - except that Josh has been instructed that he must honor his father and mother or burn in hell.  

 

I agree with you, except that I think that in addition to being worried about eternal fire, Josh may also be worried about having access to adequate cash during his earthly existence. I would bet that, like most of the Duggars, he has pretty much zero work ethic and no energy (together with no education or training and not much of a resume) and may be as scared to let go of Jim Bob's teat of support -- for him and the wife and four kids he'd likely be stuck supporting forever, even in the case of a divorce, if he left the Duggar fold -- as he is of being damned. Fear of work, fear of poverty, and fear of hellfire all combined are a pretty powerful incentive to remain in place, I would guess.

[sometimesy]

Sometimes I get this image of JimBob and Josh headlocked in an endless codependent cycle of coercion. JB threatens to cut him off without a dime if Josh doesn't finish Jesus Redemption school. Then Josh threatens to tell the world about how life really was growing up in Duggarland. Rinse, repeat. They need each other, if they're ever again going to have a tiny hope of getting the easy money...but I wouldn't be at all surprised if by now they also loathe each other.

Can Josh use the threat of a Tell-All? If there is a pending lawsuit he has to keep his mouth shut. Josh has to offer his throat to that wolf JB.

[drafan]

 Not a Josh fan and not a JB fan but I don't see why Josh wouldn't tell JB to get the F out of his life - except that Josh has been instructed that he must honor his father and mother or burn in hell.  

.........yeah, the 'hell' the rest of us live in every day...the one without a TV show, a cushy job, fame, money, magazine covers, Hummers, trips, Invisalign braces, personal trainers, Coach purses, etc.

I suspect JB is plotting the redemption tour as we speak. Can't wait to see how this "little snafu" will be waved away.

[kokapetl]

I think the money earnt from the TV show was, in a way, legitimately earnt by Josh and Anna. Their lives were rather mundane, but their slice of the profits would've been pretty minuscule compared to how the production company and the network profited from their mundane lives. Leased Hummers are always a bad idea, but Anna legitimately earnt the money for that crap by letting a camera crew see her nude and up close giving birth on the toilet, amongst other things.

[Marigold]

any confirmation on where Joshie is? 

 

I'm so annoyed he is under the radar. 

[MonicaM]

I think the money earnt from the TV show was, in a way, legitimately earnt by Josh and Anna. Their lives were rather mundane, but their slice of the profits would've been pretty minuscule compared to how the production company and the network profited from their mundane lives. Leased Hummers are always a bad idea, but Anna legitimately earnt the money for that crap by letting a camera crew see her nude and up close giving birth on the toilet, amongst other things.

Please tell me you are joking or exaggerating.  I never watched the show, but just reading this sentence is causing me mental agony!!  If it is true, how does letting your most intimate moments be captured on film for public consumption reconcile with the ultra modest lifestyle they're supposed to be living?  

[jschoolgirl]

Is he actually there?  Did we confirm this and I missed it?

I imagine he is at prayaway camp, but sitting out of camera range (or watching the livestream) and is allowed to forego activities where they leave the institution.

[SomePity1066]

Please tell me you are joking or exaggerating.  I never watched the show, but just reading this sentence is causing me mental agony!!  If it is true, how does letting your most intimate moments be captured on film for public consumption reconcile with the ultra modest lifestyle they're supposed to be living?  

Yes, it is, unfortunately, 100% true - Anna gave birth while on the toilet at home. It was Jana or Jill, I believe, that "caught" the baby before, uh...splashdown. 

 

It was all filmed, very poorly pixelated, and, to this day, makes me cringe to even think about it. 

 

So, yeah, for all the blah blah blah about being the Queens of Modesty Mountain, the TLC cameras captured her essentially naked from the waist down on a toilet. It's mind-numbingly incongruous that everyone gets the vapors if someone shows a freaking kneecap, but if you're having a baby we all get to discover firsthand whether or not Anna needs a bikini wax. 

[leighroda]

Is it too late to join the chat? I know it's separate but I don't remember who set it up and who we are supposed to pm.

[GeeGolly]

Is it too late to join the chat? I know it's separate but I don't remember who set it up and who we are supposed to pm.

I'm not sure, but I think it is CofCinci. I'm not sure if I'm spelling it right though.

[CofCinci]

Send me your email address and I can send you an invite to the slack.  There are a few of us in there nnow.

[Cherrio]

Topic of sermon tonight:   Dead flies and dead crunchy frogs by Dr. Crabbs.

 

Barf