S04.E13: Toast Can't Never Be Bread Again

[laprin]

I spent the long holiday weekend binge watching the season. At the end, I couldn't help but wonder how different things would have gone if Fig was still in charge. I like Caputo, but he is not up to the task of going toe-to-toe with the likes of Piscatella.

[kieyra]

22 minutes ago, laprin said:

I spent the long holiday weekend binge watching the season. At the end, I couldn't help but wonder how different things would have gone if Fig was still in charge. I like Caputo, but he is not up to the task of going toe-to-toe with the likes of Piscatella.

This is a really interesting point. Fig would have actually taken less shit from Piscatella. And she would have been better at dealing with the corporate assholes higher up the ladder, probably preventing the original walkout of the guards.

Litchfield would still suck but the body count would probably be lower.  

Edited July 5, 2016 by kieyra

[kieyra]

Somewhat randomly ... I haven't mentioned this before because it was 20 years ago so not sure if relevant anymore ... my father was in Federal prison in Miami for five years. The acronym was MCC, and the joke was it stood for Miami Country Club. Obviously if bad things went down he didn't rush to tell me about them, but I do know he lost a lot of weight/got in shape, learned to write poetry, and also that one could purchase Haagen-Dasz bars in the commissary. He did describe the lockdowns as seen on the show, which was the thing I remember him complaining about the most. (There were some failed rescue/escape attempts--it was Miami, so a lot of high profile criminals--and he was in there concurrently with Manuel Noriega, so I suspect they were pretty jumpy with the lockdowns/counts.) The visiting room situation was pretty much as you see in OITNB, except you could spot the wives of the higher-level drug traffickers by their much more expensive clothes. As visiting family, we were treated as subhuman, as you'd expect.

Oh, and he did get health care including dental work. But it was, as I said, 20 years ago, and I think before privatization of prisons started being a thing? And I assume things have changed for the worse. 

Edited July 5, 2016 by kieyra

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

5 hours ago, teapot said:

I think Teresa Guidice from RHONJ did eleven months at Danbury (real-life Litchfield.)  According to her interview on Watch What Happens Live, her days consisted of jogging, yoga, naps, Bravo TV, and a job "wiping down the tables a couple times a day."  For a  second I was almost envious!

Sounds like she maybe got the Judy King treatment. I doubt her less famous and powerful fellow inmates got such a ritzy treatment. 

[kelslamu]

On 7/2/2016 at 10:01 AM, Captanne said:

 

The more UO, I think, is that I was proud of Caputo's speech.  I understand what prompted the revolt and I'm right there with them -- but I've heard a lot of criticism of Caputo's response and I think he did the best he could given his personality.  The most telling moment for me was when he went to Fig and she said, "They broke you, too, huh?"  And he agreed.  They broke him -- so his speech, going off the script, was his brave, if fragile, attempt to bring humanity to the situation.  It wasn't enough, of course, by a long stretch.  But it was a try and it was all he could do within his own limitations.  I came away with a feeling of pride.  This, to be sure, is a UO, so I fall back on the cartoon evil excuse -- Caputo was not only up against a battalion of Snidely Whiplashes but he is part of the cartoon and is limited himself.

 

 

I give Caputo credit for his attempt to "flip off" the powers that be.  He did what he could within his established limitations.  However, he just toed the line a teeny bit and could have gone farther.  It wouldn't have been the Caputo we know though.  

[paramitch]

First off, this season absolutely gutted me. I thought it was the best so far by the show -- the funniest and yet most devastating. I adored Poussey and will miss the character so much, and I was so horrified in this episode that scene after scene, that beautiful tiny girl's body was just left there. While they tried to work out how to "spin" it. It made me physically sick, the knowledge that she was just lying there on that floor. Like trash. Like a thing. I was enraged by the end. So I understood Taystee's rage and grief -- part of me was even rooting for the inmates to rebel! The entire situation was grotesque.

Poussey added a real and vital heart to the show I think will be difficult to replace. I still love many inmates and care about them so we'll see how next season goes. But she was so often a bridge as a character, between black and white, between privilege and poverty, between gay and straight. She was simply loved by almost all. So Poussey's radiant smile at the end to us, that feeling that she knew the world was ahead of her and it was beautiful... it killed me.

Because Poussey had a chance. Unlike Aleida and others (whose skills, cases and chances are so devastatingly slim once they get out), Poussey would have succeeded. She would have called that number Judy gave her (I will always love Judy King for that), and moved forward with a real chance at a new life. She would have been able to leave prison behind. So her death really upset me and still does days after viewing it.

And look, here's the deal: a family member of mine went to prison last year. She did time for nearly six months in County in the SE U.S. for a nonviolent drug offense, and then served 5+ months in a minimum security prison before exiting to 2 months in a boot camp rehab program and probation. And her stories shocked and floored me. (Yes, from County and Minimum.)

For instance, our TV idea of swift justice? Of swift arrest, booking, charging, etc.? Of detailed conversations with public defenders determined to find the truth? Is hilarious. My family member, a mother of 3, was in County for two months before charges were brought. There is a surprising amount of legal leeway involved when necessary when it comes to these situations. People unrepresented become detritus, a dependable lower level of prison waste.

The reality is, the common denominator to all of these women with extended sentences for relatively minor or nonviolent infractions is poverty. They cannot afford bail (or of course lawyers) and the PDs are (while I'm sure hardworking) a joke because they are juggling insane numbers of cases constantly. So the inmates live in limbo. They often wait weeks or months to be officially charged and further weeks (and months) for next steps, court dates, etc. to be set. Nobody speaks for them. They rot in County for months alongside everyone else too poor for bail or legal support, sharing filthy, crammed spaces with inmates charged with everything from murder to petty theft to trifling marijuana use. 

When she was in minimum security, I personally stepped in and called/pleaded with the lawyers and prison a few specific urgent times when she was in situations she felt were unbearable (sleeping on the sewage soaked concrete floors because of overcrowding, not being allowed to go to medical despite a heart condition, diabetes and terrifying blood sugar levels, etc.). It isn't for the weak and it definitely isn't summer camp. Minimum security prison is still prison, in every sense. Don't kid yourself.

On 6/21/2016 at 8:44 PM, DianeDobbler said:

No, a prison guard can't add time to an inmate's sentence. They CAN write a report, that, if believed by the parole board, can add time to your sentence. But again, how often does this happen in minimum security?

The most devastating thing I've discovered about our justice system is that, unless you have money, once in the system, you cease to matter. You are erased. Nobody has the time to listen to you. There are too many people to oversee, too much work, too many hours.

And a CO's recommendations are taken as gospel unless the inmate has a lawyer aware of the situation who can make a stink, or (even more rarely) administrators step in to right a wrong if someone is suggesting a truly egregious extension. And the guards quickly know this. They know who has people on the outside and those who don't. They are every bit as overpowered and godlike as shown on OITNB, and more. My family member had some good experiences and knew the nice guards by name (and fondly referred to them), but was also terrified of a host of others (she would not even say their names on the phone, and she mailed me her journals later on shortly before her release, in which they were only identified by a single letter, because she was terrified of retribution if any found and read them).

I remember chuckling when she said she never thought OITNB would be educational viewing but she absolutely feels that in at least her case, this show is (while great) a very rose-colored picture of even minimum security prison life. Just for what it's worth.

On 6/21/2016 at 11:47 PM, RCharter said:

I actually toured a federal facility....and if I HAD to do prison time.....I would definitely want to do it at a federal facility.

They had like 2-3 large flat screen TVs in each pod, and you could get a receiver and headphones, so it wasn't noisy.

I think people hear the words "minimum security" and assume, "Well, it's not really prison, not actual prison," and that's just so not true. Yes, it is. And it's actually generally much worse than the show gives us. They are not all watching flat screens and surfing the Internet, but are in many cases sleeping on sewage-damp floors due to overcrowding (and inmate activity -- some stop up the toilets on purpose to keep pipes open for communication with the inmates/men on other floors) and making calls ($5 per call) on phones that are so battered and ancient it's difficult to hear even a brief conversation on either side. The noise level is shattering and constant -- screaming, yelling inmates who don't care about punishment because they know they're on the way to psych or max. My family member's # of roommates over 11 months varied from between 1 roomie to 5 others depending on conditions. (And when crowding was worst, they'd stick a bunch of inmates in Psych and even double them up in SHU.) 

And the food and commissary system is a racket. They are fed 60-70+ slices of white bread per week (7-8+ slices per day, varying) along with rotting bug-infested vegetables and putrefying prison slop (prisoners in my family member's block actually used the excess white bread to plump up their pillows!), but the food is so bad most are willing to pay ridiculous prices for commissary items whenever they can, hoarding ramen soups or candy like gold. They pay exorbitant commissary rates for everything from a bra and shoes (whatever they wore is taken away upon admittance), to basic necessities like soap, shampoo, deodorant, tampons, etc. They are charged for everything and it ALL goes to the prison. I sent her money for commissary every week and the prices were insane.

And that's public institutions. It's worse if private.

On 6/22/2016 at 7:11 AM, Pixel said:

Not to mention - for Poussey's crime (what we do know of it), she probably should have already been released anyway, not still there to be killed. Nobody in that place had better behavior than her, except maybe for Yoga Jones and Sister, but those two don't belong there either. All three of them should have been released by now.

Good behavior barely matters once the inmate is inside, except to keep them overlooked and off the grid (and away from the worst guards/punishments). At best, they are promoted and given positions that allow them small freedoms, but at worst it simply means they're overlooked, not lauded or praised. The only thing that moves the system along and shortens sentences, in the vast majority of cases, is someone with the money and legal support to make the appropriate amount of noise to get someone's attention and to then possibly shorten a sentence. It all comes down to money and support. Those without it simply languish in the system and wait their time to emerge (at which point, of course, they have little hope for a job or rehabilitation, since checking off "felony conviction" instantly ensures that the vast number of employers will not even consider them).

And -- most people don't know this -- parolees still not only have to visit their parole offices (and sometimes just getting there is incredibly tough for the poor just restarting their lives with no vehicles) but also to pay a variety of fees monthly. My family member pays about $250 per month to parole every month (and she was lucky enough not to have an added fine -- but some drug related convictions can include fines of $10,000-$30,000 or more that the inmate then has to pay off -- and if they don't pay? Back to jail!) Drug offenders are also typically denied food stamps OR public housing, and also given only a month or two in halfway housing upon release before they're asked to move on.

On 6/22/2016 at 7:33 AM, DianeDobbler said:

I side eye the entire concept of a minimum security prison being part of the "prison industrial complex" - which is what Orange is the New Black is attempting to demonstrate. It's not minimum security that is subject to profiteering. That's a problem with the show.

Minimum security prisons are very much a part of the prison industrial complex. And the show does a pretty good (if rather glossy and rose-colored) job of showing that, even in minimum security, inmates are abused and dehumanized, and that prison is still prison. I definitely would not say that the show is somehow putting a darker spin on prison. If anything, my family's experience is that it puts a rosier glow on conditions than those that actually exist in many, many minimum security prisons. For example, I remember wondering if my family member's experiences were perhaps being a bit inflated -- not unusual in former addicts, after all -- until two local papers (and the local TV station) ended up doing extensive exposes on the horrendous conditions at the prison (specifically on the food, sewage, and overcrowding issues endured by the inmates).

On 6/22/2016 at 2:10 PM, tvsoothesthespirit said:

Poussey's murder was horrible and hit me really hard. In my opinion (aside from the prison system generally), Caputo is at fault. Piscatello is his fault, the lack of sanitary supplies, the overcrowding -- all of the "small" incidents that put pressure on the inmates, the press conference is a result of the devil's bargain he made with MCC. Caputo wants to believe he's a good person. In the abstract, he cares about the inmates. I felt like I really understood him when he didn't call the police. His fear about what would happen to him far outweighed what was the right thing to do.

Caputo is one of the most interesting and upsetting characters for me on the show, because we can see that he is a good man at heart, and one who sees the inmates as human beings and not as units in a report. Unfortunately, he's also a weak man, and he has shown that he is perfectly willing to shut his eyes at the worst moments, or open them at his best -- and then say exactly the wrong thing (as he did here in the finale, never mentioning poor Poussey's name while absolving Bailey).

On 6/23/2016 at 7:47 AM, DianeDobbler said:

I'm still researching, but I don't believe minimum security has SHU. People don't "act out" as Suzanne acts out. What she does is far from acting out. Solitary isn't used for plain "acting out." It's also incredibly expensive to have an inmate in SHU.

As a rule, the vast majority of minimum security prisons (if not all) absolutely do and must have solitary confinement and Psych sections simply to manage the worst inmate infractions and interactions. They are definitely real and not imagined by the show or by author Piper Kerman. And they are all too often abused.

On 6/23/2016 at 0:32 PM, RCharter said:

People "act out" violently in every type of prison environment.  Minimum security, maximum security, medium security.  SHU is at all levels because prisons need a place to isolate certain inmates that might cause havoc in gen pop.  

http://www.vera.org/sites/default/files/resources/downloads/prisons-within-prisons-segregation.pdf.  On page two of this article they do mention that segregation or SHU is used in minimum security prisons.  Solitary is used for prisoners who "act out" violently or have fights.  Its a way to punish the inmate, as well as to segregate them from the rest of the prison population.  It is expensive to have an inmate in the SHU which is why its used for a limited amount of time with an inmate, until they have cooled off, or they no longer present a current threat to the prison population.

Great explanation -- thank you for posting that. Solitary is a powerful weapon and it's easy to see how it's misused even in minimum security. Poor Sofia this season broke my heart. (Note: I was so happy to see her return, but wish we'd gotten a heartfelt scene between her and Sister Ingalls, for instance -- they all worked so hard to get her out, and she barely seemed aware of their efforts.)

For those still unconvinced that OITNB is accurate, a few good pieces on the reality of the show and that it actually lightens the conditions it shows: 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/amos-irwin/how-orange-is-the-new-black-misrepresents-womens-federal-prison-and-why-it-matters_b_7547334.html 

http://www.al.com/entertainment/index.ssf/2014/08/do_tv_and_movies_reflect_reali.html

https://www.buzzfeed.com/jeffsmithmo/a-former-prisoner-on-what-orange-is-the-new-black-gets-right?utm_term=.mrbYpbNqk#.efV3yvN0J

Last but not least, I still think that Daya was the wrong choice to pick up the gun. I think it should have been Maritza, Taystee or even Sophia -- someone really, directly wronged this season by the guards and institution actively supporting their crimes.

Edited July 6, 2016 by paramitch
length. :-)

[RCharter]

@paramitch -- you make a lot of excellent points, and I appreciate your passion.  I think there is a difference between county/state and federal facilities.  State budgets are shrinking and the jails are the first places where cuts are made.  I think in the next 10-15 years there is going to be a shift in federal drug policy to deal with drug offenders differently.  Our system right now just doesn't work, and so many people are in jail for crimes related to drug abuse.

There is never anything good about drug use/abuse....but the one silver lining of the epidemic of opiod abuse is that I think it is making people look at it as less of a crime and more of an illness.

 

I'm hoping that Taystee and Black Cindy are two that make it against the odds.  I think Taystee has the best chance of really making something of herself.

[Mrs OldManBalls]

On June 30, 2016 at 5:30 PM, AllyB said:

The MCC PR douchebags specifically said she had under an ounce on her when she was arrested.

I loved that Poussey was too squeaky clean for them to blame any part of her death or the riot on her actions. "Even her mug shot is fucking adorable". And their attempt at cropping the bunny ears out of her photo to make it look worse? It really takes a certain personality to work in PR. 

Caputo and the prisoners will be begging for Pornstache after Piscatella and his crew leave. 

[paramitch]

8 hours ago, RCharter said:

@paramitch -- you make a lot of excellent points, and I appreciate your passion.  I think there is a difference between county/state and federal facilities.  State budgets are shrinking and the jails are the first places where cuts are made.

Thanks, @Rcharter. And sorry for the incredibly lengthy ramble! And to clarify -- yes, I was talking about a state minimum security facility.

I think Taystee is amazing and could definitely make a life for herself outside -- she's one of those people who's so smart and quick, she was just never given the opportunity to explore her skills. I just hope it goes better next time than last (when she was back in prison in a month).

[tennisgurl]

This season just killed me, but I do think it was its best season yet. Not a perfect season (it felt at times like they had a check list of social justice issues they had to deal with, and there were just so many characters that characters we have known since season 1 barely showed up), but a very good one. I really have no idea where next season is going. Hostage situation? More people sent to Max? Most importantly, will awful Linda and the awful guards EVER gets whats coming to them? I need answers! I cant wait a whole year! 

Poussey was a real bright spot in this whole dark season, so of course she had to die, and her body was left on the ground like a used tissue. What a depressing state of affairs. I really cant even blame the prisoners for being so angry. That being said, this is not going to end well for anyone. I just hope nobody dies in the start of next season. Or if someone does die, I hope its that horrible Humphrey. 

Caputo was stuck in a terrible place. I appreciated him not wanting to shove Bailey under the bus to hide the MCCs incompetence, but completely downplaying Pousseys death, and apparently letting him come back to work, was not the right way to handle things. Caputo is, I think, a basically good person, but also a weak person. Its really too bad. 

Healy checking himself into an institution was probably the smartest thing he has ever done. I still think he is a major asshole, but I also feel bad for him. He is clearly a very unhappy and unwell person, and at least he can admit it. 

Basically, it was a hard season to watch, but I think it was an important one as well. 

[questionfear]

On 7/1/2016 at 11:38 PM, SadieT said:

Pennsatucky is a murderer too. Frieda being in minimum I could buy because of her age, like you said. But I don't think Doggett's crime was all that long ago considering her age, and before her recent change of heart she hadn't exactly been a model prisoner as she was volatile and sometimes violent, so her being in minimum makes no sense to me. But whatever the justification is for her being in Litchfield, I'm glad for it because she's become one of my favorite characters.  

 

On 7/4/2016 at 9:17 AM, kieyra said:

Could it be because Doggett had the powerful church-money lawyers behind her?

I am fairly certain they made it clear in Doggett's flashback that the church-lawyers argued her case into a lower charge. They pushed her into embracing religion as her motivation, and they probably pushed HARD for a minimum security facility with the implication that anything harder was persecuting Doggett for her beliefs, or some other craziness. It's a bit of a dropped storyline, but IIRC the lawyer was seen visiting Tucky and telling her how people see her as an inspiration, etc., so the church had a vested interest in keeping her more accessible via minimum security. 

[Kel Varnsen]

On ‎2016‎-‎07‎-‎05 at 3:00 PM, kieyra said:

This is a really interesting point. Fig would have actually taken less shit from Piscatella. And she would have been better at dealing with the corporate assholes higher up the ladder, probably preventing the original walkout of the guards.

Litchfield would still suck but the body count would probably be lower.  

Which makes me wonder why there is no one in Fig's role? When she was around there was the unseen warden, she was assistant warden and Caputo was captain of the guards. Now Caputo is warden and Piscatella is captain, but no assistant warden. Seems like with all the crap he is dealing with he could use someone in that position.

[FozzyBear]

I think Daya having the gun is interesting in that it goes along with the show's thesis of "This is how it happens". Someone mentioned the guilt/innocence of the prisoners. I'm surprised that I don't think we've seen an innocent person yet. People caught up in shit with differing degrees of guilt, yes. But I don't think a single character has actually been shown to just be wrongfully convicted. instead it seems like the show has taken the angle of showing most everyone having pretty much done what they're in for, but also shown all the stuff that lead up to making those bad choices seem reasonable in the moment. Daya's life is forever changed. She's pointing a gun at a guard. If she fires, she's never getting out. Even if she doesn't she's getting time added. She's not a bad person. She could have done her time and tried to move on with her life, but this is how it happens. This is how you go from one mistake to a lifetime in and out of prison. 

[Princess Sparkle]

6 minutes ago, FozzyBear said:

I think Daya having the gun is interesting in that it goes along with the show's thesis of "This is how it happens". Someone mentioned the guilt/innocence of the prisoners. I'm surprised that I don't think we've seen an innocent person yet. People caught up in shit with differing degrees of guilt, yes. But I don't think a single character has actually been shown to just be wrongfully convicted. instead it seems like the show has taken the angle of showing most everyone having pretty much done what they're in for, but also shown all the stuff that lead up to making those bad choices seem reasonable in the moment. Daya's life is forever changed. She's pointing a gun at a guard. If she fires, she's never getting out. Even if she doesn't she's getting time added. She's not a bad person. She could have done her time and tried to move on with her life, but this is how it happens. This is how you go from one mistake to a lifetime in and out of prison. 

When Oz was still on the air, they did the same thing; none of their prisoners were innocent of the crimes they committed (one gets his conviction overturned, but that's due to police misconduct).  In that case, the show was highlighting how the characters were fighting for redemption in various degrees, but in OITNB's case I think you hit the nail on the head - they're trying to show the circumstances and life experiences that made the prisoners of Litchfield think what they were doing was the logical thing at the time.  

[lazylump]

Lots of interesting reading here, folks! 

I never even flinched at Caputo not saying Poussay's name at the press conference because it was a privacy issue.  Next of kin must give permission etc.  For someone who likes to go through proper channels, It seemed fitting.  Did he say Bayley's name?

I keep rooting for Caputo, thinking this time he will do the right thing.  Call 911!  But, I was watching and knew that Judy King had a phone, Tastey had access to a phone, so did Caputo and even Linda. I was wondering who was going to end up making the call.  I was disappointed when MCC itself was able to make the call on their own volition.

I also assumed that the guards took Kukudio to medical and said they found her in a stairwell or something.  With a dead body in the garden, I figured nobody really had time to follow up.  Also, if the FBI were all over the garden (Didn't look like much had been touched. If they are going to look for the body parts, I figured the garden would have been destroyed)  Were they still waiting for the FBI 2 days later, when Poussay was killed?  I figured the FBI would have gotten wind that there was a fresh body in the cafeteria and done something.  I keep reminding myself that this is fiction and some things need not be explained away.

My guess for the beginning of next season is Daya looks  away from humps, he lunges and another inmate gets shot.  I do agree that there are a few too many inmates that we are trying to follow.  I'd like to see more of Aleida trying to make it work outside of prison, or at least someone.

I really hope that maybe things go a bit better next season. The guards and their power trip is getting tough.  I felt, along with Vee in season 2, that the writers drag things out, just a hair longer than you are comfortable with.  Then they resolve it, just when you think you are stuck with the villain.

Edited July 7, 2016 by lazylump

[FozzyBear]

One thing I've really liked about the last 2 seasons is that the show hasn't presented the women as simply victims of circumstance. Yes they are (and some much more so than others), but most do have something in them that also contributed. A real tendency toward bad short terms solutions to large problems or serious problems with self control or something. Piper has reacted to the boredom of prison in much the same way she reacted to the boredom of post college life, by getting involved in an illegal business just to kill time. Yoga Jones may be sober but the same greed that lead her to start a marijuana farm has lead her to sell her soul to Judy King. Nicki is an out of control addict even when she's sober. Daya needs to impress people so she's holding a gun. Most of these women didn't actually just make one mistake, they all have something in them that drives them to their mistakes. I think that's why Poussays death is so awful. She was one of the few that showed self awareness and progress in prison and had a shot at a life. So many of these women (Piper I'm looking at you) are operating on such amazingly slow learning curves. They just keep doing the same shit with the only difference being sometimes they get caught and sometimes they don't. 

[Maysie]

On 7/6/2016 at 2:34 AM, paramitch said:

Last but not least, I still think that Daya was the wrong choice to pick up the gun. I think it should have been Maritza, Taystee or even Sophia -- someone really, directly wronged this season by the guards and institution actively supporting their crimes.

I think that Daya picking up the gun is actually more powerful because it's a bit less personal. The other ladies have been, as you say, personally wronged, dehumanized by the guards and the prison. However, I think the fact that Daya, who's been relatively under the radar until her mother left, demonstrates that the poor conditions can take their toll on anyone/everyone. You don't have to be forced to eat a mouse, etc. to feel the abuse. They all see it, they all feel it and they're all frustrated by what's happening, to some degree. I also think it shows just how much she's slipping since her mother left. Even though her mother was not very motherly, she's all Daya knew as a mother and she misses her presence.

[Scarlett45]

13 minutes ago, Maysie said:

I think that Daya picking up the gun is actually more powerful because it's a bit less personal. The other ladies have been, as you say, personally wronged, dehumanized by the guards and the prison. However, I think the fact that Daya, who's been relatively under the radar until her mother left, demonstrates that the poor conditions can take their toll on anyone/everyone. You don't have to be forced to eat a mouse, etc. to feel the abuse. They all see it, they all feel it and they're all frustrated by what's happening, to some degree. I also think it shows just how much she's slipping since her mother left. Even though her mother was not very motherly, she's all Daya knew as a mother and she misses her presence.

Also I think Daya has never dealt with her issues regarding her baby, her "relationship" with Bennett etc. At the end of the day Bennett was a CO, she was a prisoner, their relationship could never be consensual which is why the guard she attempted to frame for the pregnancy was put in jail for rape. Bennet was never to be heard from again, she's lost her baby to the SYSTEM and her Mom....she's been through a lot, quietly but a lot. 

[Granimal]

On 7/4/2016 at 9:01 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

As someone else pointed out, Bayley and Poussey committed similar crimes in their flashbacks. But Bayley got out without any charges while Poussey was sent to federal prison. There but for the leniency of the arresting officers.

Yes, I thought it was a very interesting point that Bayley was shown getting caught for trespassing and smoking (possession) of marijuana. Interesting how the police treated him like a dumb kid, and the situation like a joke- not even calling his parents and even joking around with him like they were buds. When Poussey got caught for the same actions, obviously the cops didn't play it off as a joke, or "kids being kids." With the racial issues in this episode, this example really stood out to me. The white male got to be in charge of the black female, who basically committed the same crimes. As Judy King says,"You're a white male, you don't get to be the victim, sweetie." Though arguably wasn't she

Spoiler

sexually victimizing Looscheck via blackmail? Or was it more of a currency situation? I didn't pay much attention to those scenes.

Bayley's flashbacks showed him as someone who seemed to follow the influence of peer pressure a lot, to the point where it got him into situations he knew were morally wrong. When he (or his dumb friend) hit (Frieda?) with the egg, his face showed that he was just realizing that the prisoners were people too.  Not sure what to think about the King Kone flashback, stealing from your job and being such a dick about it seemed to counter the other flashbacks. I'm not sure what that scene was supposed to illustrate. Falling to peer pressure again? Gray areas of human morality? Various times he got away with crimes- vandalism, stealing, trespassing, smoking weed?

I also agree that something happened on that phone call to General Poussey. The timing of those two scenes had to have meant something.

The Poussey flashbacks were excellent and heartbreaking- the perfect sendoff. Lots of phone parallels there. In NYC all Poussey needed was a phone to get to where she was supposed to be. And here we are at Litchfield with phones on lock down and no one able or willing to make the phone call to get her body to where it needed to be. I may need to watch those flashback scenes again.

I went into the last two episode spoiled, and that was a big mistake. (duh)

I'm still deciding how I feel about the cliffhanger. I liked that Daya held the gun at the end, for the reasons mentioned above.

Edited July 8, 2016 by Granimal

[Falafel]

Uh, that ending sucked. Just finished -- I'll have to think about it and try to come up with something more than that. But to what has been a bleak and unsatisfying season, in terms of a finale, that was maybe the least satisfying end to a season this show has had. After trudging through the darkness and, frankly, unpleasantness of this season, I was hoping for pay off in the end. I'm left just feeling pretty empty about the whole thing.

This was by far the most depressing and disturbing season of the show and, honestly, it wasn't what I signed up for. Yes, the prison was always highly dysfunctional and treated the inmates like crap -- there was a lot to feel angry and depressed about -- but there was enough heart, enough bits of justice, enough humor, enough silver lining to make it bearable. But this season was just dark and then it got darker and even darker. Everything just kind of sucked. After seasons two and three ended, I was so hype for the next season. But at this point, I'm not even sure I'll watch season five.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

3 hours ago, Granimal said:

Yes, I thought it was a very interesting point that Bayley was shown getting caught for trespassing and smoking (possession) of marijuana. Interesting how the police treated him like a dumb kid, and the situation like a joke- not even calling his parents and even joking around with him like they were buds. When Poussey got caught for the same actions, obviously the cops didn't play it off as a joke, or "kids being kids." With the racial issues in this episode, this example really stood out to me. The white male got to be in charge of the black female, who basically committed the same crimes. As Judy King says,"You're a white male, you don't get to be the victim, sweetie." Though arguably wasn't she

  Hide contents

sexually victimizing Looscheck via blackmail? Or was it more of a currency situation? I didn't pay much attention to those scenes.

Bayley's flashbacks showed him as someone who seemed to follow the influence of peer pressure a lot, to the point where it got him into situations he knew were morally wrong. When he (or his dumb friend) hit (Frieda?) with the egg, his face showed that he was just realizing that the prisoners were people too.  Not sure what to think about the King Kone flashback, stealing from your job and being such a dick about it seemed to counter the other flashbacks. I'm not sure what that scene was supposed to illustrate. Falling to peer pressure again? Gray areas of human morality? Various times he got away with crimes- vandalism, stealing, trespassing, smoking weed?

I thought that the flashbacks of Bayley giving in to peer pressure combined with Caputo telling him that he's essentially too nice/not hardened enough to be a CO meant that Bayley would snap and try to prove himself worthy of being one of the guys by beating the crap out of one of the inmates. I'm still sad that he accidentally killed Poussey but at least it wasn't because he was deliberately going overboard with machismo to get the approval of the other guards or to prove Caputo wrong.

I think that the flashbacks showed why he has looked the other way so many times when the other guards did things he felt uncomfortable about. That's the way he was with his high school friends and that's the way he is now. He was definitely uncomfortable about Humphreys forcing Suzanne to fight someone, but instead of stopping it, he just left. I was actually really surprised that he approached Caputo to tell him what happened. For someone like Bayley who has been going along with whatever everyone else is doing, that was a step forward which was personal progress for him but unfortunately it wasn't enough to help any of the inmates.

Bayley was by no means perfect, but for me the biggest difference between him and most of the new guards is that he obviously felt an immense amount of guilt about what he did whereas you know that Piscatella, Humphreys, and Dixon would have no such remorse. I'm not saying that Bayley is a standup guy because we're setting the moral bar pretty low with Piscatella & co. But Bayley still sees the inmates as humans while the other new guards just see them as animals who they are free to abuse.

Edited July 8, 2016 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Sofinn]

I really don't care about the cliffhanger. Shoot him, don't shoot him. Daya started to annoy me this season, so I don't care what she does. I think the gun pulling thing was just to impress Maria.

Samira Wiley was my woman crush this season and Poussey was my favourite. But she was too happy with the possible job offer and Soso, so I kinda figured that she was a goner. 

Now I can get back to my normal life! Finally!

[kathe5133]

The "job offer".  I don't think Judy King would have followed through on that.  Nothing I saw of this woman showed me she was the type to really want to help her fellow man.  Had Poussey lived, got out of jail, and tried to hold Judy to her promise, at best she may have got an autographed photo, worst reported as a stalker.  Not that that fact makes Poussey's death any less heartbreaking.........

[Clanstarling]

I totally agree @kathe5133. Judy King says whatever is needed to get people to do things or get out of her hair.

[Totale]

Having just finished this season I've been reading this and the overall Season 4 threads in parallel and forget on which one it was brought up, but somebody mentioned Linda's gun and I don't think it's on site at the prison.  The guards detected Humps's gun and he browbeat them to let him through, but corporate types had to go through the same gates and I don't see them letting her sweet-talk her gun in.

But while we're on Linda, I assume the scene of her in the bathroom furiously swiping her phone to the right (presumably on Tinder) was supposed to be her looking for her next Beer Can after she was alerted to (presumably) Fig's bite marks on his ear. I'll bet it's less restrictive for women, but isn't she a little, uh, old for that shit?  I ask in innocence as someone who definitely is.

[NYCFree]

I loved this season.  I wasn't even a tiny bit spoiled and was just gutted by Poussey's death.  The writing and acting has really been phenomenal.

My explanation for Poussey's sentence was that it wasn't based on the amount of drugs, but on where she was trespassing.  She was down by the water in Brooklyn, perhaps in a side bit of the Brooklyn Navy Yards? Some other bit of Federal land? 

I believe that the address she was trying to reach was 212 John Street. The earlier post gave me the idea to look up the corresponding Biblical verse: John 2:12 I am writing to you, little children, that your sins have been forgiven because of his name. I am not sure what to make of that.  I am hoping that one of you posters can help with that, as you have by noticing the parallels between Poussey's and Bayley's back stories.

[paramitch]

Quote

I'd like to see more of Aleida trying to make it work outside of prison, or at least someone.

I feel like the show already concentrates too much on Aleida, who is one of the worst people in the entire tapestry. I appreciate getting to see the human sides of such a horrible human being, and the show and actress have done a good job with that, but I wish they'd focus on someone else. Not only was she a horrible mother to Daya and siblings, but I'll never forgive her for deliberately ruining the chances for Daya's baby to have a safe and stable life with a genuinely kind woman. 

Aleida's worldview is so skewed and poisonous that I feel like she has zero chance to make it on the outside, anyway. Look at the way she treated her boyfriend's babymama (who was nice enough to come and pick her up at prison!) -- all Aleida could do was judge her for being "disloyal" to him by moving on with her life. Yet even in the end, the girl had a couch waiting for Aleida and a kind word. I just can't stand the character -- she's just so incredibly hateful and rude to others.

Quote

The "job offer".  I don't think Judy King would have followed through on that.  Nothing I saw of this woman showed me she was the type to really want to help her fellow man.  Had Poussey lived, got out of jail, and tried to hold Judy to her promise, at best she may have got an autographed photo, worst reported as a stalker.

I disagree. While Judy has a multitude of flaws, she comes across to me as being a pretty straightforward 'warts and all' type who knows who she is, for better or worse. Which was why I thought they had Judy specifically tell Poussey that it was "the real number," and "not the fake one" she could have given her. (Why specify that if she wasn't being honest?)

I think Judy is perfectly capable of being self-serving and hypocritical, but I felt like here she was being pretty open and kind to Poussey, and yes, I do think she would have given her a job. It might not have been an amazing job -- but I do think she was being genuine with her.

[RCharter]

22 hours ago, Totale said:

Having just finished this season I've been reading this and the overall Season 4 threads in parallel and forget on which one it was brought up, but somebody mentioned Linda's gun and I don't think it's on site at the prison.  The guards detected Humps's gun and he browbeat them to let him through, but corporate types had to go through the same gates and I don't see them letting her sweet-talk her gun in.

But while we're on Linda, I assume the scene of her in the bathroom furiously swiping her phone to the right (presumably on Tinder) was supposed to be her looking for her next Beer Can after she was alerted to (presumably) Fig's bite marks on his ear. I'll bet it's less restrictive for women, but isn't she a little, uh, old for that shit?  I ask in innocence as someone who definitely is.

I don't know, I feel like Linda would be the sort to throw around her status at MCC and the guards wouldn't want to be bothered.  They seemed to realize that keeping guns out was their job, but didn't maybe appreciate WHY they had to do it.  If you're willing to let crazy ass Humps in with a gun, you can probably be talked into letting anyone in with a gun.  So, I could see it going either way.

I think swiping right can also be used for other phone applications.

[GreenAjah]

New to the forums, but I have always loved discussing shows like this and I have seen some awesome points made here (paramitch, your post could have been a lecture in several of my socio/anthro classes, and a bloody good one at that).  

I wasn't too particularly attached to Poussey, but somehow that made it worse for me, like I couldn't just tell myself "oh it's only so upsetting because you're in love with that character", the way I did to comfort myself after the finale of Turn; Washington's Spies.

Poussey was a great choice on the writers' part, because she rarely antagonized anyone but also wasn't this great hero either.  She was just a regular person caught in the moment, as is often the case in real life.  Those last two episodes stuck with me long after they ended, I think for that reason.  There is always an uncomfortable feeling I get when watching this show; an occasional reminder of "that could be you if you had made different choices" or worse, "that could be you had you been born under different circumstances and conditions".  Like paramitch said: by far the most common theme amongst prisoners is poverty.  

I am certainly in the minority, but I believe they purposely made Poussey's finale scenes quite vague and open to interpreation.  At first I thought "ah, flashback", but she has already had that treatment on the show and it felt weird they would do a flashback of her getting busted so late in her storyline.  Went back and watched the last 5 minutes (which must be done, because... good lord) and that final shot of Poussey was sooo symbolic.  Finally alone, she is surrounded by bits of trash and looking to the other, beautifully lit up side of the river.  And suddenly the earlier mention of crossing the River Styx came crashing back into my head.  Also, it really seemed like she saw someone there at the very end and her face lit up (possibly her mother?).  Maybe I'm just telling myself this to dull the pain, but I think her scenes definitely skirted the line between "flashback" and "afterlife", purposely.  Absolutely bloody brilliant

[FozzyBear]

6 hours ago, GreenAjah said:

New to the forums, but I have always loved discussing shows like this and I have seen some awesome points made here (paramitch, your post could have been a lecture in several of my socio/anthro classes, and a bloody good one at that).  

I wasn't too particularly attached to Poussey, but somehow that made it worse for me, like I couldn't just tell myself "oh it's only so upsetting because you're in love with that character", the way I did to comfort myself after the finale of Turn; Washington's Spies.

Poussey was a great choice on the writers' part, because she rarely antagonized anyone but also wasn't this great hero either.  She was just a regular person caught in the moment, as is often the case in real life.  Those last two episodes stuck with me long after they ended, I think for that reason.  There is always an uncomfortable feeling I get when watching this show; an occasional reminder of "that could be you if you had made different choices" or worse, "that could be you had you been born under different circumstances and conditions".  Like paramitch said: by far the most common theme amongst prisoners is poverty.  

I am certainly in the minority, but I believe they purposely made Poussey's finale scenes quite vague and open to interpreation.  At first I thought "ah, flashback", but she has already had that treatment on the show and it felt weird they would do a flashback of her getting busted so late in her storyline.  Went back and watched the last 5 minutes (which must be done, because... good lord) and that final shot of Poussey was sooo symbolic.  Finally alone, she is surrounded by bits of trash and looking to the other, beautifully lit up side of the river.  And suddenly the earlier mention of crossing the River Styx came crashing back into my head.  Also, it really seemed like she saw someone there at the very end and her face lit up (possibly her mother?).  Maybe I'm just telling myself this to dull the pain, but I think her scenes definitely skirted the line between "flashback" and "afterlife", purposely.  Absolutely bloody brilliant

I actually think they may be keeping the possibility of bringing Poussey back in another season if her new show doesn't work out. Obviously not in the present timeline (the girl is dead. That much is clear), but in flash backs. We still don't know why she got such a long sentence or why her family wasn't coming to visit her. I could see bringing her father in because he sues the prison for wrongful death allowing the show to use that plot as a way to have the actress in flash backs about whatever lead to her going to prison.

[paramitch]

14 hours ago, GreenAjah said:

New to the forums, but I have always loved discussing shows like this and I have seen some awesome points made here (paramitch, your post could have been a lecture in several of my socio/anthro classes, and a bloody good one at that).  

I wasn't too particularly attached to Poussey, but somehow that made it worse for me, like I couldn't just tell myself "oh it's only so upsetting because you're in love with that character", the way I did to comfort myself after the finale of Turn; Washington's Spies.

Poussey was a great choice on the writers' part, because she rarely antagonized anyone but also wasn't this great hero either.  She was just a regular person caught in the moment, as is often the case in real life.  Those last two episodes stuck with me long after they ended, I think for that reason.  There is always an uncomfortable feeling I get when watching this show; an occasional reminder of "that could be you if you had made different choices" or worse, "that could be you had you been born under different circumstances and conditions".  Like paramitch said: by far the most common theme amongst prisoners is poverty.  

I am certainly in the minority, but I believe they purposely made Poussey's finale scenes quite vague and open to interpreation.  At first I thought "ah, flashback", but she has already had that treatment on the show and it felt weird they would do a flashback of her getting busted so late in her storyline.  Went back and watched the last 5 minutes (which must be done, because... good lord) and that final shot of Poussey was sooo symbolic.  Finally alone, she is surrounded by bits of trash and looking to the other, beautifully lit up side of the river.  And suddenly the earlier mention of crossing the River Styx came crashing back into my head.  Also, it really seemed like she saw someone there at the very end and her face lit up (possibly her mother?).  Maybe I'm just telling myself this to dull the pain, but I think her scenes definitely skirted the line between "flashback" and "afterlife", purposely.  Absolutely bloody brilliant

Welcome to the forums, Greenajah! And thank you so much for that compliment, which totally made my day. Especially since I was insufferably rambling and worried that I had bored everyone to death! :-)

I think your thought about Poussey perhaps confronting the afterlife is a really interesting one -- it's certainly one a lot of people share. I wish I could -- I'd really like that kind of tangible confirmation that Poussey lives on in some way. I lived in NYC for a few years back in 2008-2010, and for me it just felt like one of those perfect crazy New York nights, and Manhattan after all never looks more beautiful than when viewed from across the river. One of my favorite things about living in Queens a few years back was that I could see that view all the time, and also experience that euphoria of going into the city from afar (even if it was just 10 minutes across the river). I loved that.

And there is also something for me about New York -- and that view -- that makes us believe just a little bit in magic. Everyone you meet in NYC has a dream, and that was why Poussey's final minute here devastated me. She is on the cusp of everything wonderful, all of life and possibility in front of her. And she turns and shares with us her excitement and her delight and hope in that sweet, wise smile. And little does she know it's all about to go to shit.

But -- as with Thelma and Louise

Spoiler

in its final shot

, in a completely different way, there is something wonderful about her smile being the last thing we see here. We get that sense of immortality, in a sense, that Poussey is okay, that she will always be standing beside that river, looking at that view, and then smiling at us, her friends (because in that moment she loves everyone in the world). It reminded me very much of Thelma and Louise because 

Spoiler

that final shot freezes as the car arcs up and appears to fly -- we don't see them crash into the Grand Canyon, or the terrible and depressing aftermath. In some way they are doomed but also forever spared and immortal, in flight in empty air.

8 hours ago, FozzyBear said:

I actually think they may be keeping the possibility of bringing Poussey back in another season if her new show doesn't work out. Obviously not in the present timeline (the girl is dead. That much is clear), but in flash backs. We still don't know why she got such a long sentence or why her family wasn't coming to visit her. I could see bringing her father in because he sues the prison for wrongful death allowing the show to use that plot as a way to have the actress in flash backs about whatever lead to her going to prison.

I wondered that too, and wouldn't be surprised if she turned up in some bittersweet surprising way when we least expected it next season or the one after... although to me that would rob the incredible ending here of its power to a degree. (Or maybe it simply would if it was, like, next episode. But if it was after several episodes, it might be really effective. Either way, I'm gonna miss Samira Wiley on this show -- she made Poussey such a delightful and incandescent, memorable person.

Edited July 13, 2016 by paramitch
messed up the spoiler tag, gahhhh

[buttercupia]

This whole season has me very conflicted but I think the whole pennsatucky/rapist thing is going over a lot of heads. I think she was dealing with a lot of conflicting feelings about him and at the end when they kissed and he said what he said, it clicked for her. Boo was right. She dodged a bullet and no matter how sorry he claims to be, he is still and will always be a rapist. 

[Penman61]

The reading that Poussey's NYC Night of Magic was a vision of the afterlife is...odd.  
First, the selfie she took with friends showed up in her death investigation (the MCC douche was going to photoshop out the bunny ears).  So...I guess heaven has time-traveling wireless?  The clouds have iCloud?

More importantly, if that Night is all-heaven, then that eliminates the other (much more likely and potent, IMHO) interpretation that we are being shown a dead character's night of peak happiness.  If that's heaven, then that poignancy is lost for the audience and, instead, we just start working out the metaphysics of Poussey's heaven ("Is that drag queen Sofia?  Who from Litchfield was singing that aria?  Why do you need to get high in heaven?").  That may be interesting to some but I don't think it's very effective drama (see also LOST, final season).

Edited July 13, 2016 by Penman61

[violetr]

I finished the season last night and I have a few thoughts. First off, I think this season was amazing. I'm really glad I watched it because I thought last season was pretty weak. Man, did they bring it back. Good job, writers! Beautifully written and acted, and so SO timely. 

Because we're all so focused on what happened with Poussey (and rightly so), I do think a few important character arcs/plots have been glossed over a bit. To wit, I gotta give major props to Lori Petty who plays Lolly. I think she was absolutely brilliant this season. She was funny when she needed to be, tragic when she needed to be, and so very sympathetic. She is absolutely someone who slipped through the cracks of a seriously damaged healthcare system, and it was so hard to watch. She had a career and a life - just not the right avenues or support system to get help. And it ruined her life. On the right meds she could still be a reporter, FFS. So sad.

Quote

This whole season has me very conflicted but I think the whole pennsatucky/rapist thing is going over a lot of heads. I think she was dealing with a lot of conflicting feelings about him and at the end when they kissed and he said what he said, it clicked for her. Boo was right. She dodged a bullet and no matter how sorry he claims to be, he is still and will always be a rapist.

This is the other thing that's been on my mind a lot since I watched the finale. Like many people, I have a zero tolerance policy toward rape. Or do I? The way this played out, I was almost starting to think that perhaps it is possible for a rapist to realize his mistake and become a decent human being. I really don't know. I believe in second chances, but some things you just can't come back from. I always thought rape was one of them, but if you are really contrite and realize the horrible thing you did, can you be forgiven? I just don't know. 

As for Poussey's wild, wonderful night in NYC, I don't get why it can't be both real AND an afterlife metaphor. It's fiction - perfectly ok to be multilayered!

[vibeology]

On ‎7‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 10:21 AM, kathe5133 said:

The "job offer".  I don't think Judy King would have followed through on that.  Nothing I saw of this woman showed me she was the type to really want to help her fellow man.  Had Poussey lived, got out of jail, and tried to hold Judy to her promise, at best she may have got an autographed photo, worst reported as a stalker.  Not that that fact makes Poussey's death any less heartbreaking.........

 

On ‎7‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 3:40 AM, paramitch said:

I disagree. While Judy has a multitude of flaws, she comes across to me as being a pretty straightforward 'warts and all' type who knows who she is, for better or worse. Which was why I thought they had Judy specifically tell Poussey that it was "the real number," and "not the fake one" she could have given her. (Why specify that if she wasn't being honest?)

I think Judy is perfectly capable of being self-serving and hypocritical, but I felt like here she was being pretty open and kind to Poussey, and yes, I do think she would have given her a job. It might not have been an amazing job -- but I do think she was being genuine with her.

I also think Judy probably would have come through with the job. If for nothing else, one picture of her kissing a black inmate shouldn't completely fix her racist reputation on the outside so helping Poussey would be good PR. I doubt she'd be hiring Poussey to be her assistant or anything, but I do believe she'd find something for her to get her started. Judy is a totally piece of work, but I don't think she had a reason to lie then, when things were going well. Only when things turned to shit and she didn't want to get caught up in the bad PR mess did she start to cover her ass and abandon the people she had connected with. If there had been no protest and Poussey hadn't died, Judy would have left a day later and had no reason to go back on her word when that action could have very easily helped out her own public image.

[Booger666]

For me what was interesting this season was the theme of group think / mob mentality. Caputo knows MCC (and Linda) are not good and put him in uncomfortable situations, and he goes along. Some guards know other guards are bad and put them in uncomfortable situations, and they go along. Now a prisoner has the power with a gun. Do I think Daya would shoot Humps if it were just the two of them? No. But the camera focused just as much on the screaming and taunting prisoners as it did on Daya and her reactions. I have no idea if she will stay true to herself or go along with the mob and I will be turning in next season to find out. 

(Personally, I hope she does shoot Humps as I would be OK with seeing less of those characters.)

[DangerousMinds]

On July 5, 2016 at 2:23 PM, teapot said:

I think Teresa Guidice from RHONJ did eleven months at Danbury (real-life Litchfield.)  According to her interview on Watch What Happens Live, her days consisted of jogging, yoga, naps, Bravo TV, and a job "wiping down the tables a couple times a day."  For a  second I was almost envious!

I know! So many people out there inth is country are unemployed, underemployed, living on paltry disability or SS checks, struggling to put a roof over their heads and food on the table, and our tax money goes to pay for prisons like that one.

[DangerousMinds]

On July 6, 2016 at 4:17 AM, RCharter said:

@paramitch -- you make a lot of excellent points, and I appreciate your passion.  I think there is a difference between county/state and federal facilities.  State budgets are shrinking and the jails are the first places where cuts are made.  I think in the next 10-15 years there is going to be a shift in federal drug policy to deal with drug offenders differently.  Our system right now just doesn't work, and so many people are in jail for crimes related to drug abuse.

There is never anything good about drug use/abuse....but the one silver lining of the epidemic of opiod abuse is that I think it is making people look at it as less of a crime and more of an illness.

 

I'm hoping that Taystee and Black Cindy are two that make it against the odds.  I think Taystee has the best chance of really making something of herself.

Didn't we already see Taystee get out of prison, only to commit another crime and go right back?

[RCharter]

24 minutes ago, DangerousMinds said:

Didn't we already see Taystee get out of prison, only to commit another crime and go right back?

I forgot about that, but I believe you're right.  Now that I remember that, I remember it being so very powerful....a powerful statement about how little support these inmates get when they get back out into the world and how the prison can almost become more of a comfort for them.

Her google search doesn't leave me with much hope for her computer skills, but she has so much intelligence and promise, IMO.

I think she just needs to reach out to some advocacy groups before she gets released.  Had she even had access to the resources Alieda had (as half-ass as they were) I think Taystee could have made a go of it.

[Ina123]

On 6/21/2016 at 10:51 PM, Andromeda said:

 We used to have state psych hospitals, until Reagan got rid of them and dumped people on the street.

 

The ACLU, backed by some of the leading psychiatrists of the day sued the government and won the release of patients. The Reagan administration had no choice. Many laws were passed to ensure the rights of mental health patients were not stepped on.

I have a brother (deceased now) who was in and out of mental hospitals with depression and anxiety. He was suicidal for much of his life and tried a few times. In the late 60s and thru the 70s we could take him to the hospital when we knew he needed to be there and they would care for him, get him back on meds and release him when he was ok and taking the meds correctly. When all hell broke loose and the ACLU butted in all kinds of laws were passed re mental health facilities.

My family was a victim of these laws. Before, under the old rules, we could check him in against his will when we knew he needed help. After, unless he had explicitly threatened to take his life or the life of another, we could not do that. He had to sign himself in. Well, he never thought he had a problem so, of course he wouldn't. In some cases they would keep him 3 days for evaluation but they would send him back out.

We would lose track of him (we couldn't babysit all the time and sometimes we were not notified of his release) and only find him when we received a call that he had hurt himself or others. Make no mistake, down thru the years we could tell when he needed treatment. We didn't need shrinks to tell us. Had the old policy remained no one would have been hurt. Sadly, we lost him 2 years ago at the age of 64 to suicide.

[Ina123]

I just remembered Frieda was hit by an egg when Bailey and his pals were out egging the neighborhood. Frieda was in a work gang raking leaves. Oh, if only she had recognized him. What a story.

[Ina123]

On 7/1/2016 at 10:08 AM, announcergirl said:

"been described as murderers, even Red. I think they were accessories."

Frieda was pissed that when the body was found they suspected Red first. She was pissed because she had (I think she said) killed 5 men. She thought them interrogating Red first was disrespecting her. We definitely need a Frieda backstory.

[tvfanatic13]

I am calling it now. Once the riot is made public, Adeila will purposely get sent back to prison to help her daughter. 

[Dobian]

So disappointed in Caputo.  When he went off-script I thought he was going to do the right thing and expose the evil corporation behind this mess.  Instead he played cya.  Even without the riot cliffhanger at the end, all of this would still be exposed.  Poussey's father will launch his own investigation.  The big question of why an entire day passed before Poussey's death was reported will come back to bite them in the ass.  Judy dropped the fake veneer to show her real self, so it was great to see her get caught in the mob at the end.  Will have to wait for Piscatella to get his comeuppance next season.  I loved the scene with Poussey on the subway, it was so well done.  And r.i.p. Poussey, you were the sweetest character on this show and will be missed.

[paramitch]

On 7/18/2016 at 3:47 PM, DangerousMinds said:

I know! So many people out there inth is country are unemployed, underemployed, living on paltry disability or SS checks, struggling to put a roof over their heads and food on the table, and our tax money goes to pay for prisons like that one.

But one point OitNB put across very well this season was the fact that "Judy King," as with Giudice, was given special treatment. It wasn't so much that "yay! prison is easy!" but rather that inmates like Giudice or Martha Stewart (as seen here with Judy King) are coddled and pampered and given a completely different, far kinder experience because the prison administrators know that they're rich, famous, are certain to be released (given their high-powered legal support), and that the least they can do is try to make themselves look good.

However, while a very few minimum security federal prisons are evidently very soft time, I emphatically do not agree that overall, minimum security prisons are some kind of cakewalk for anyone, and also argue against the idea that these prisoners are somehow loafing around, getting free room and board, having a great time on the poor taxpayers' money. They aren't. They are imprisoned in situations entirely beyond their control among a population of prisoners whose offenses even in minimum security range from violent (murder, assault, kidnapping, robbery, etc.) to nonviolent (mostly a variety of drug-related or white-collar) crimes.

On 7/18/2016 at 4:00 PM, DangerousMinds said:

Didn't we already see Taystee get out of prison, only to commit another crime and go right back?

Yeah, and she really blew it -- I remember Poussey was so hurt and angry when she went back so fast. But I still think Taystee could rehabilitate and escape the cycle someday, especially if she has more support on the outside next time.

On 8/6/2016 at 10:24 AM, tvfanatic13 said:

I am calling it now. Once the riot is made public, Adeila will purposely get sent back to prison to help her daughter. 

I can certainly see this as a way for them to keep Aleida on the show. I don't know why they seem to feel this is necessary (I absolutely loathe her), but I wouldn't be surprised.

20 hours ago, Dobian said:

So disappointed in Caputo.  When he went off-script I thought he was going to do the right thing and expose the evil corporation behind this mess.  Instead he played cya.  Even without the riot cliffhanger at the end, all of this would still be exposed.  Poussey's father will launch his own investigation.  The big question of why an entire day passed before Poussey's death was reported will come back to bite them in the ass.  Judy dropped the fake veneer to show her real self, so it was great to see her get caught in the mob at the end.  Will have to wait for Piscatella to get his comeuppance next season.

Yeah, I'm very interested to see what happens next season, because this season set up the opportunity for so much revelation and change.

Meanwhile, I saw this article the other day and thought I'd share --

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/06/cca-private-prisons-corrections-corporation-inmates-investigation-bauer

it's on a reporter's four months as a private prison guard in Louisiana. Most interesting, I felt, were the revelations that:

• Guards rarely stepped in when inmate-against-inmate violence occurred, letting matters take their course.
• Guards could wield power over inmates through write-ups or via certain inmates
• There was little to no mental health support for prisoners in any way.
• There was little to no medical support for prisoners in any way.
• Those in solitary or on suicide watch were actually worse treated than general population (and were systematically ignored)
• In-house "trials" for inmate offenses were a joke -- most lasted ten minutes, the prisoners weren't listened to, and the minor-level administrator acting as "judge" was able to extend existing sentences to a ludicrous degree for even minor infractions (one inmate had a month added to her sentence for using the broom at the wrong time).
• Inmates were rarely officially charged for violent offenses within the prison, with only the worst being sent over to max facilities
• Inmates who were supposed to be released could be held almost indefinitely through semi-deliberate administrative matters or mix-ups (for instance, one guy waited a year to be released because no one would follow up and find someone on the outside to give him an official destination/home upon release)

Etc.

While not all of the article is directly relevant to OitNB, I do definitely think several aspects are, especially and directly so, when it comes to the way Caputo and the company, for instance, chose to handle matters here after Poussey's death.

The article is really upsetting and sobering. On the plus side, it almost immediately and single-handedly ended the further use of private prisons by the Federal government after those contracts expire, as announced just a week or so ago.

[Guest]

On July 5, 2016 at 1:37 PM, laprin said:

I spent the long holiday weekend binge watching the season. At the end, I couldn't help but wonder how different things would have gone if Fig was still in charge. I like Caputo, but he is not up to the task of going toe-to-toe with the likes of Piscatella.

Me too- my husband and I SCREAMED at Caputo when he didn't fire Piscatella on the spot in the break room confrontation. (Actually I think it was episode before this one but same with binge watching and reaction.)

[lazylou]

This season was so powerful.  The earlier seasons were amusing, compelling, character driven, maybe a bit controversial, but this was a tremendously powerful commentary on the prison-for-profit industry.  I so wanted Caputo to stand up for what is right...but was not surprised when he opts, every time, for having a job.  And then, when he does stand up against the company, does so in a way that foments a riot.  I think Caputo saw himself in Bailey.  He had tried unsuccessfully to get Bailey to quit the job, and at the end finds himself unable to turn Bailey into the monster the company PR people have scripted.  So in standing up to the company on Bailey's behalf, he creates a riot.  Understandably.  The final scenes of this season are all too real.  As previously noted, the most upsetting aspect of the final scene is the knowledge that Daya will have to pay.

Edited September 8, 2016 by lazylou

[peggy06]

On 6/19/2016 at 0:18 PM, WhosThatGirl said:

As for the Flacka and Martiza scene, that made me angry. I get that the show needs to maintain a sense of humor, but they are doing a hell of a job making me hate these two characters the more they are on my screen. 

Ugh. I agree. So silly and vain and self-centered. Yeah, I briefly felt sorry for Maritza over the horrid Humphrey thing, but she seems to be back to the ways. I never really liked Flaca.

[oceanlover]

I think Bailey will confess his roll in Poussey's death, and MCC' will get some of what is coming to them. At least I can hope!

He fessed up the the cops when he was a kid that he also had some pot that night he and his friends were caught on the water tower.  At the ending montage they showed Bailey speaking to the authorities.  He was totally grief stricken and traumatized by her death, he wants to do the right thing.  

I do hope they give us the back story on Freida! 

[Baltimore Betty]

Bayley kept showing up in the random scenes, we saw him throw and egg Freida and on the street when Poussey was lost/separated from her friends in NYC.  

It really broke may heart that they killed Poussey off and Suzanne's back story was awful, so sad.  Such good writing it really drained me emotionally, (I had been fasting so there is that).