S04.E13: Toast Can't Never Be Bread Again

[RCharter]

3 hours ago, hkit said:

Why is that? Is there a greater guard to prisoner ratio? Is it the dedicated facilities, which reduces prison density?

I think its a few things.  You can't have two people in one cell in SHU --so the dedicated facility idea you mentioned.  And there are more guards required for prisoners in the SHU, especially when moving and feeding the inmate.  And of course, if you're using the SHU long term there are higher incidents of "issues" stemming from inmates being isolated and just wanting some human contact.  Getting an inmate out of their cell and into medical, and the costs associated with putting the inmate in medical or cleaning the cell are also costs that the system has to incur.  

From what I've seen, just having one guard sort of take a prisoner out of a SHU cell and usher her into another cell isn't really how it works.

[kylies-lips]

I don't know how to feel about this show right now. This season was way darker than I wanted. I have to keep reminding myself that for all its super entertaining factors (silly fun storylines, great dialouge, fantastic actors) this is a show about women in prison and the entire prison system. It's about crime and punishment. It's about abuse of power by people. It's about negligence. It's about corporate greed. And none of those things are very entertaining.

Caputo ain't shit and although I think we the audience realize he has bits of humanity in him, we also realize he is too weak to stand up for what's right. This is a man who had full knowledge of the corrupt and abusive guards at his prison and all he did was huff and puff, look conflicted and then turn a blind eye. And its heartbreaking because the women really did trust him to a degree. He completely failed them.

This show demonstrates what happens with the system fails people at various points and highlights the fact that so many things are grey areas. We know that Bayley did not kill Poussey intentionally. He was an untrained and frightened young man in a highly emotional and chaotic situation. He may have been the instrument that killed Poussey but the entire system failed him and it failed her too. She's a casuality of a much greater issue. 

The flashback of Poussey experiencing New York City in this really fanciful scenario contrasted with her body laying on the cafeteria floor for most of the episode was the absolute WORST. :(  Next season will be about everyone grieving her and I'm not sure I am ready for that.

Daya is another example of the system failing her. Despite her best efforts, she was a victim from the moment she was born. With a shitty mom, an inappropriate relationship with a guard, having a baby in prison and now whatever the hell is going on with Ruiz and her crew---she's a lost cause. I don't see her pulling the trigger but she just screwed herself in the hopes of getting out on time.

As much as I hate the Pennstucky and Coates storyline I'm kinda glad they went there. Rapists are not always creepy guys hiding in bushes. They are "nice" guys who can display a conscience too. And Pennstucky is so damn vulnerable and all she's ever known were fucked up relationships. He makes her uncomfortable but she is also attracted to how nice he is to her. These types of things are complex and I like the show highlighting it.

Ugh...this season. Not sure what the hell to expect next season. 

I wasn't at all compelled by the Sophia storyline. I should have been but I'm not. Same goes with Sister's crusade to rescue her and Yoga Jones storyline.

Piper still continues to be one of the worst and most unlikable characters. I wonder how the real Piper feels about TV Piper being so awful?

[Brn2bwild]

Until the riot, I was surprised by how restrained Taystee seemed emotionally.  I thought she'd act a lot angrier upon learning Caputo never called Poussey's father.  Maybe she was too numb/just trying to keep it together.

I could watch that riot scene over and over.  It was fantastic.  I could see Daya getting into trouble even if she doesn't kill or wound the guard, but ironically, maybe having her mother on the outside could help her.  Maybe Aleida will be an unlikely advocate.

I suspect next season, we'll see the former prison guards break their silence about the terrible conditions in Litchfield.

[Nanrad]

I don't blame Bayley or Suzanne for Poussey's death, I blame Piscatella and the government.

1. Suzanne should NOT be a minimum prison facility or prison at all, she should be getting psychological care. All the shit she's been through and has put others through in prison is due to her not being properly treated. And she shouldn't be in psych, but an actual facility that is trying to either manage and/or help her get better. Suzanne is not someone you can just sit down and reason with, she has to be handled a certain why due to how her brain is wired. If she hadn't had a community, she would've been put in psych a long time ago, which would've been detrimental to her. We saw this same shit play off with Lolly. People will mental illnesses are put in jail and not given proper treatment.

2. Piscatella indirectly escalated this situation by being power hungry and NOT checking his subordinates, which is why Humps knew he'd get away with pulling the bullshit that he did, which put Suzanne on edge and the others CO's went along with it. Yes, most of them aint shit minus Bayley (despite his shady moments) and MAYBE the lady guard, but even they were thinking this dude went too far with the fight. Suzanne was put in an emotionally traumatizing situation. And, TBH, I have very little sympathy for Maureen. The orgasm denial, the mocking, and that other shit she pulled--maybe she is unwell as well, but Suzanna tried NOT to fight and Maureen not only volunteered, but provoked Suzanne with very persona shit. Does she deserve to get beat to a pulp? No. But, you don't taunt and mock people, especially if you don't know WHY the fuck they're in jail and they have little impulse control. Maureen thought she was going to put Suzanne's ass, until Suzanne got the drop on her.

3. Bayley was doing his job. It sounds like a bullshit excuse, but he was. He was afraid terrified due to going to Caputo in the first place and went along with Piscatella's orders because he was afraid of what might happened, generally speaking. 

4. If Piscatella wasn't power hungry and trying to assert said power, the shit that led to Suzanne being on edge wouldn't have ever happened or even the protest, for that matter, which led to Poussey's death. Because if he was a critical thinker, was really concerned about running the prison properly, and actually trying to understand the environment, shit wouldn't had gotten to the point it did. You can tie most of that shit back to him. Hell, include Piper in that shit, but Piscatella ran away with her idea. He was the one who decided to profile the hispanics/mexicans/dominican/etc. He was the one who allowed Blanca to stay on the table longer to prove a point after the original CO said he didn't want to go on any longer with the punishment. He was the one who wanted to punish Red for not being afraid of him. 

5. Caputo is between a rock and a hard place as always. He has sleazy moments, but he is actually trying to make a difference. I have no fucking clue why he didn't say her name and I won't excuse him for that, but I kept wondering, "Caputo should quit." But, how does that help the women? At the same time, he didn't want to throw Bayley under the bus because it wasn't his fault. Caputo has been demanding that the guards be properly trained or that other ones are sent in. Every time Caputo tries to do something good, it becomes corrupted by the system directly or indirectly. It's lose-lose for him. 

[knaankos]

On June 21, 2016 at 2:02 PM, Andromeda said:

Exactly. I have no sympathy for Crazy Eyes feeling guilty. She SHOULD feel guilty! More than 300 pounds were being pressed into Poussey because of Crazy Eyes acting like an idiot. It's too bad, because usually I like Crazy Eyes, but she's not so crazy she couldn't see what effect her actions had. At least she should be able to figure that out!

I thought at first Poussey would end up with a broken back, like the victim in Baltimore received when he was arrested (and then died).

I absolutely hate that not a single mention of this was made by any character. To be quite honest, Poussey's death is directly on Suzanne. It's not the first time she has caused an innocent to die, she has killed 2 innocent people and almost a 3rd with beating Cuckodio or whatever into a pulp. How can she still be in the general population the day after beating someone almost to death? I understand the actress for Crazy Eyes is now considered by all to be God's gift to acting but that should not mean that character gets off again and again. She is very clearly not stable and should be in Psych. She is not anymore stable than Lolly and far more dangerous than Lolly ever was.

On June 19, 2016 at 2:52 AM, WhosThatGirl said:

 The only other character death like this was Vee's and I don't think she was as likeable Poussey. At least not by me or the people IRL I know who watch this show.  

 

ummm you should probably go back and watch season 2 sometime... Poussey and Vee are at the completely opposite ends the spectrum as far as like-ability. 

[knaankos]

On June 21, 2016 at 3:59 PM, junemeatcleaver said:

The only one at fault for Poussey's death, imo, is the asshole guard who unnecessarily escalated the situation.  Without that you wouldn't have Suzanne jumping on "poor sad Woobie" guard or Woobie guard pressing his leg into a petite woman's back.  Shit, it was the guards' fault for agitating Suzanne in the first place by forcing her to beat up another inmate which probably led her to being more aggressive during the protest.

This is all true but the fact still remains that Suzanne is a ticking time bomb and nobody wants to be around for the boom. She should not be in gen pop, period. And she wouldn't be if the actress didn't get so much admiration.

 

I wonder why the writers chose to put the gun in Daya's hands at the end. Her role this season too a significant step back compared to previous seasons, I guess is them putting that character back in the spotlight? I don't know why specifically her, there were certainly other characters more harmed by the guards than her this season.

Edited June 24, 2016 by knaankos

[Princess Sparkle]

2 hours ago, knaankos said:

I wonder why the writers chose to put the gun in Daya's hands at the end. Her role this season too a significant step back compared to previous seasons, I guess is them putting that character back in the spotlight? I don't know why specifically her, there were certainly other characters more harmed by the guards than her this season.

I think the gun is with Daya because it's a turning point for her character - is she going to do what Gloria (and by extension, her mother) want her to do, which is keep her head down and finish her sentence, or is she going to go along with Maria, whom she's been desperately trying to fit in with in the past few episodes. Plus, she's one of the few characters left that leaves some question on whether or not she'd shoot; if her mother was still there, I'd honestly say she wouldn't shoot, but throughout the course of the series we've seen that Daya can be headstrong about the dumbest things and can easily be swayed by other people when she wants love and validation.  I did like the quick flash we got of Aleida, watching tv and clearly terrified that Daya could be the one dead, since Caputo never said a name. 

I just can't put the blame on Poussey's death on Suzanne. Should she be in a psychiatric facility? Of course. Did Suzanne instigate the situation by having a breakdown?  Yes. But she never would've had that breakdown yelling "I did a bad thing" if Humphrey and the other guards in the interrogation hadn't forced her to fight the previous evening.  She tried over and over again to not fight and was shoved back in until she had to, and even then, it was other inmates that ended the fight, not any of the guards standing there.  On top of that, Piscatella caused the entire situation of unrest by enabling and supporting untrained and unstable guards - hell, even telling Bailey to be the one to restrain Suzanne was dumb; she clearly was stronger than him - and I have no doubt whether or not Suzanne started breaking down, someone would've died or been seriously injured in their peaceful protest.  That's why I don't think any of the characters blame Suzanne - they put the blame squarely on the guards who got them all in the situation in the first place. 

Speaking of the guards - I was going to put that very large one (no clue what his name is) in a category of "power hungry, but harmless" UNTIL he drove Bailey home and said that he shot a kid who was juggling grenades and strangled a woman after having sex with her, since he thought her parents would've killed her any way. Wtf; the way he just nonchalantly told Bailey that and thought he was helping was terrifying. 

Edited June 24, 2016 by Princess Sparkle
Switched a name

[Aja]

4 hours ago, knaankos said:

I absolutely hate that not a single mention of this was made by any character. To be quite honest, Poussey's death is directly on Suzanne. It's not the first time she has caused an innocent to die, she has killed 2 innocent people and almost a 3rd with beating Cuckodio or whatever into a pulp. How can she still be in the general population the day after beating someone almost to death? I understand the actress for Crazy Eyes is now considered by all to be God's gift to acting but that should not mean that character gets off again and again. She is very clearly not stable and should be in Psych. She is not anymore stable than Lolly and far more dangerous than Lolly ever was.

ummm you should probably go back and watch season 2 sometime... Poussey and Vee are at the completely opposite ends the spectrum as far as like-ability. 

Because the guards forced her to do it, and disciplining her for it would have exposed their little fight club. But I agree, it seems weird that Suzanne is in general population in the first place given that her background is fairly well-off, and her parents are supportive. Lolly didn't seem to have anyone who cared about her or advocated for her, but you would have thought Suzanne's lawyers could have gotten her into a facility where she could receive treatment and not toss her in a pen. Maybe they'll address it next season. I have a feeling Suzanne is pretty doomed after this.

Edited June 24, 2016 by Aja

[The Mighty Peanut]

1 hour ago, Princess Sparkle said:

 

Speaking of the guards - I was going to put that very large one (no clue what his name is) in a category of "power hungry, but harmless" UNTIL he drove Bailey home and said that he shot a kid who was juggling grenades and strangled a woman after having sex with her, since he thought her parents would've killed her any way. Wtf; the way he just nonchalantly told Bailey that and thought he was helping was terrifying. 

IKNOWRIGHT? I thought he was an unlovable scamp until he mentioned casually murdering two people and totally buying his own hype that it's not killing killing, not to anyone who counts, not when we do it. 

[Amerilla]

I was spoiled, so I knew Poussey was not long for this world going into the episode. Still, it was a heartbreaker. 

Poor Poussey. Poor Bayley. Poor Suzanne. I lay the blame for this with Piscatella. In trying to assert control over the situation, in escalating where he should have de-escalated, he put both his men and the prisoners into a dangerous situation, and they all paid the price.

Suzanne and Lolly are the products of a gutted mental health system. In the past, they might have been sent to a public mental hospital, where they would at least receive minimal care. Today, something like 20% of US prisoners suffer from some level of mental illness, and nearly 5% are psychotic or schizophrenic. Someone like Suzanne isn't sick enough to be in a prison psych ward (she's not psychotic), but she's too fragile to send to a maximum security prison. She'd either kill someone or someone would kill her. What she needs - a highly controlled environment with staff who know how to deal with people with limited impulse control - doesn't exist. Lolly could benefit from medication and care - but will decompensate quickly in the chaos of her new environment. Meanwhile, Healy - who is suffering from the same garden-variety depression many of us face - can check himself into a private facility to do therapeutic crafts, drugs and talk therapy.     

Caputo. I was genuinely shocked at his speech. I know he sees the younger version of himself in Bayley, I get that. But he could have supported Bayley WITHOUT denigrating Poussey or the rest of the inmates. This was the moment he could have done right by EVERYBODY. He could have exposed MCC and the poor management of the guards by Piscatelli. He could have honored the death of an innocent prisoner as a tragic, preventable accident. His is MCC career is over either way. Why not go down with honor? 

I wasn't sure about Daya being the one to grab the gun. It seemed so out-of-character. But then, when I thought about it, it really did make sense. Over the last seasons,* she's fallen in love, gotten pregnant, gotten her heart broken, given birth and given up her baby. Aleida, her only link to her old life, is now gone. Grabbing that gun and holding it on Humps - who you could really view as a sadistic version of Bennett, another damaged young-ish veteran - was the first time she's had any control over anything or anyone in a very long time. It's the wrong choice, but it didn't spring from nowhere.

* In terms of how much of Piper's 15-month sentence is done, Daya met Bennett not long after Piper arrived and got pregnant relatively quickly. At the start of S4, she's still recovering from having the baby. So based on that, Piper has been in probably 10-12 months at this point.  

[Madding crowd]

If Caputo immediately threatens MCC, be would be removed and then the women would be left with Piscatella. He will probably be removed at some point anyway, but why not stay as long as possible and try to get more info to hang MCC with? It is also a very volatile time in the prison and more deaths could occur with only the guards in charge. I am really hoping that next season doesn't begin with Piscatella as head honcho, I don't think I would even want to watch that. Seeing these women basically tortured at the hands of psychopaths was bad enough in one season, don't want to see more of that. 

[heatherchandler]

On ‎6‎/‎22‎/‎2016 at 1:47 AM, RCharter said:

I actually toured a federal facility....and if I HAD to do prison time.....I would definitely want to do it at a federal facility.

They had like 2-3 large flat screen TVs in each pod, and you could get a receiver and headphones, so it wasn't noisy.

They had workout equipment, like bikes and treadmills and an elliptical.

The rooms were small, but they weren't teeny, tiny.

There were attached basketball courts.

There were computers that were equipped with internet (and I'm assuming that a lot of sites were blocked)

The worst part though was that it did smell damp and stuffy inside, like socks and old air.  

So, basically my college dorm.

 

On ‎6‎/‎21‎/‎2016 at 4:27 PM, JessePinkman said:

But she suffers from a mental illness, when she's manic she literally can't control her actions. She's not simply "crazy", she's legitimately unwell. She wasn't "acting like an idiot".

There were a myriad of people ultimately responsible for Poussey's death but the fact is that only one of the people involved had their knee on her back.

 

It was sad, (and maybe planned by the writers?) that Poussey was the one who would regularly keep Suzanne in check, and actually keep the guards from seeing her act "crazy" - which would have had her sent to psych.  She would lead her away, or create a diversion.  In fact, that's what she was doing when she was pulled to the ground by the guard.  She kept Suzanne from psych, and in doing so, there was a chain reaction, leading to Poussey's death.

I don't blame the guard for her death, and I don't necessarily blame Suzanne.  I blame society and the prisons - the lack of training led to the accident.  It wasn't intentional, he didn't even realize he was doing it.

[heatherchandler]

5 hours ago, Princess Sparkle said:

Speaking of the guards - I was going to put that very large one (no clue what his name is) in a category of "power hungry, but harmless" UNTIL he drove Bailey home and said that he shot a kid who was juggling grenades and strangled a woman after having sex with her, since he thought her parents would've killed her any way. Wtf; the way he just nonchalantly told Bailey that and thought he was helping was terrifying. 

Holy crap, what the fuck was that?  I'm able to sleep at night, after watching shows like this by reminding myself that the characters are not real, Poussey is not really dead, that little boy Dylan, Suzanne's friend, didn't REALLY go over the banister.

But then I remember that there are real life things that happen, like what that guard said - soldiers killing innocent people in the middle east for fun, or so they don't get in trouble, or women who are murdered by the townspeople for having sex with the soldiers, etc.  And I realize what a fucked up world we live in. 

[Primetimer]

Overcrowding led to bathroom lines and a whole lot of plot in Season 4.

View the full article

[kieyra]

10 hours ago, knaankos said:

I absolutely hate that not a single mention of this was made by any character. To be quite honest, Poussey's death is directly on Suzanne. It's not the first time she has caused an innocent to die, she has killed 2 innocent people and almost a 3rd with beating Cuckodio or whatever into a pulp. How can she still be in the general population the day after beating someone almost to death? I understand the actress for Crazy Eyes is now considered by all to be God's gift to acting but that should not mean that character gets off again and again. She is very clearly not stable and should be in Psych. She is not anymore stable than Lolly and far more dangerous than Lolly ever was.

You're missing the bigger picture, which is that the system is so screwed-up and corrupt it ...

1) Incarcerates rather than treats mental illness. (Even Morello is an example of this. If her stalker tendencies extended to her female sex partners, she would be extremely dangerous to the other inmates.) 

2) Applies pressure that puts even "normal" people over the edge

3) Enables corrupt guards to exert further pressure (which is what ACTUALLY 'directly' resulted in Poussey's death--you're getting the mechanics of her death mixed up with the cause of it)

4) Allows sketchy guards like the one Lolly nearly killed (and Alex did kill) to gain employment 'inside' in the first place

You seem to dislike Suzanne as a character and possibly the actress as well, but there are a lot of bodies piled up behind this show's cast of characters, and it wasn't her knee in the middle of Poussey's back.

Remember when Piper beat the shit out of Pennsatucky? Should Piper not be in GenPop either? I think you've also forgotten that Kukudio (who is ALSO mentally ill) picked the fight with Suzanne in the first place, albeit at the guard's prodding. 

If you want to call the show out on anything, I think you could make a case that they intentionally used 'forgivable' characters and circumstances to kill Poussey. (Fan-favorite Crazy Eyes and sad-sack guard in over his head.) But they had to do that to stay on-message: it was the system that killed her. If it had been Piscatella or "Humps" with their knee on her back, it would be too easy to focus on the villain, not the system. 

Edited June 24, 2016 by kieyra

[Petunia13]

the way Poussey was killed reminded me of Sandra Bland and others who have died in police custody recently. And that bothered me. Because it was close to reality 

[gesundheit]

I thought this was the most challenging and well-done season of this show so far. Easily. Very impressed.

That's all! Just wanted to chime in on the whole enchilada.

[AllyB]

On 6/19/2016 at 9:16 PM, Ceindreadh said:

Trespassing and possession - but only a small amount of drugs.  Honestly, it sounded like something that should have just gotten her probation if she'd had a half-decent lawyer. 

Yeah, I can't imagine why that got her 6 years. She had a well-off supportive family, her father was a high enough ranking military officer, at least a Major as he was in the German flashbacks, but more likely a General as that's what Caputo called him on the phone. She'd have had a good lawyer and had committed a very, very minor crime. Even if she'd gotten the worst judge who just desperately wanted to make an example of her, he family would have appealed and gotten her off. It was a wonderful juxtaposition of this woman having the best night ever which ultimately ended her life because she was very barely committing a crime. But it didn't fit with her background of someone with a 6 year sentence. 

[Princess Sparkle]

Since I'm terrible at understanding legal stuff after googling it - is it possible that New York had mandatory sentencing?  And that because she had enough weed to qualify for "intent to distribute" that she just automatically got 6 years?  I honestly don't know the answer, but that's the only explanation I can think of to get to 6 years for that. 

I forgot this in my previous post, but the one thing I didn't like in the finale AND what didn't really ring true to me was Flaca and Maritza practicing their "sad" faces for when they're on camera. Especially considering they spent a decent part of the season trying to show that Maritza isn't as superficial as she's been portrayed, and especially because she was the victim of Humphrey's fucked up psyche. It's not like I think everyone in Litchfield had to be completely broken up by Poussey's death, but they both seemed uncharacteristically cold to me in that scene. 

[kaygeeret]

I have to say that the last three epis of this season were gut wrenching on an increasing scale...the sense of disaster was ramped up incrementally. Bueatifully written and planned.

While I really appreciate all the insights into the 'real world' of minimum incarceration and corp prisons many posters have made, I am totally behind this as a work of fiction illuminating larger truths and using various characters to do so.  So many thoughtful and well written comments here.

All that said, the last episode had me gut punched.  So many scenes worthy of comment, eg. Doggett/Coates and Nicky/Linda being two that really showed how damaged so many of these folks are.....but, aside from the last sequence with Poussey and NYC and the joy in her face- which left me in a puddle on the sofa - my favorite reflective moment was....

Red reading from a book the passage about gardens that Poussey had pointed out to her when Red started the garden.  It was a beautiful passage and it was such a peaceful, loving and regretful scene especially in contrast with the rest of the episode in the prison.  And I freely acknowledge that the scenes of    Poussey in NYC were searing in contrast to the prison scenes, this garden scene was peace and reflection within the prison, a very different thing.

Regarding the last scene with Daya, the gun, the guard and the inmates - I want Frieda to step up, shoot the psycho guard and then pass the gun around for everyone to touch everywhere (after emptying it of bullets).  No way in hell to tell who shot the f****r.

Terrific and heartbreaking season.

[ridethemaverick]

I think the actresses who play Tastee, Black Cindy, Watson, and Soso did an excellent job with the grief scenes.

I hope Days shoots the creepy guard. Even better if Piscatella stumbles on the scene and gets shot too.

[Petunia13]

I don't get how they explain the sentencing for Poussey either. Morellos confused me too it was mail fraud for lying about packages being lost/stolen and stalking and threats? And she had like 6 more years on her button when she met piper episode one? Maybe the 2 crimes together made it more severe?

its weird to me there's rapists and molesters and people who commit vehicular homicide who get way less time than Poussey who was harmless. And Morello who honestly needed mental health treatment. 

[AllyB]

I think in all honesty that Poussey's 6 year sentence was a case of the writers giving her that sentence before deciding on her crime. And after realising what a popular character she had become and knowing how gut-wrenching this ending would be, they decided to make her crime so minor. (Similar to how Leanne was definitely not written as secretly Amish in the early seasons.) So I think I'm going to just think of P as serving a 2 year sentence that she was coming very close to the end of.

Edited June 25, 2016 by AllyB

[RCharter]

22 hours ago, Princess Sparkle said:

 

Speaking of the guards - I was going to put that very large one (no clue what his name is) in a category of "power hungry, but harmless" UNTIL he drove Bailey home and said that he shot a kid who was juggling grenades and strangled a woman after having sex with her, since he thought her parents would've killed her any way. Wtf; the way he just nonchalantly told Bailey that and thought he was helping was terrifying. 

I felt like it was just a way to highlight that hiring war vets was another thing that seems like a great idea on paper, but that could backfire terribly.

Sure, on paper it seems like a win/win/win.  MCC gets a tax break, Caputo gets guards that have had some sort of military training, war vets get jobs.

But, in practice -- how do you really vette these new guards?  There is a ton of terrible shit they may have done...like the fat guard....and no one knows about it, because no one was particularly watching and writing it down.  So you can't just rely on military records, because its probably not going to make mention of him strangling someone he had raped.  And then some of these guys might have PTSD....so are they the best candidates?  Not to mention that much of their training or work has been in a combat zone....a prison shouldn't particularly be a combat zone.  And to make matters even worse, Caputo's girlfriend, Linda, was all fired up to get injured vets, or vets that had been in combat for the longest amount of time.....and I would think that the longer you've been in combat, the more likely you are to have PTSD.

But just like so many other things -- it SOUNDS like a great idea....until you start thinking about and then you realize that it might not be that awesome.

 

21 hours ago, Aja said:

Because the guards forced her to do it, and disciplining her for it would have exposed their little fight club. But I agree, it seems weird that Suzanne is in general population in the first place given that her background is fairly well-off, and her parents are supportive. Lolly didn't seem to have anyone who cared about her or advocated for her, but you would have thought Suzanne's lawyers could have gotten her into a facility where she could receive treatment and not toss her in a pen. Maybe they'll address it next season. I have a feeling Suzanne is pretty doomed after this.

Yeah -- but what facility is that?  And I'm not being shady, but I've never heard of such a place.  She wasn't traditionally "insane" when she committed her crime, so she wouldn't go to a treatment facility.

And Litchfield probably has what accounts for "mental health resources" thought Healy -- he has the degree in social work and seems like he is supposed to be a counselor of sorts.  But Healy is kind of the worst.  And you know how he feels about black people so there is that....

 

19 hours ago, Amerilla said:

Suzanne and Lolly are the products of a gutted mental health system. In the past, they might have been sent to a public mental hospital, where they would at least receive minimal care. Today, something like 20% of US prisoners suffer from some level of mental illness, and nearly 5% are psychotic or schizophrenic. Someone like Suzanne isn't sick enough to be in a prison psych ward (she's not psychotic), but she's too fragile to send to a maximum security prison. She'd either kill someone or someone would kill her. What she needs - a highly controlled environment with staff who know how to deal with people with limited impulse control - doesn't exist. Lolly could benefit from medication and care - but will decompensate quickly in the chaos of her new environment. Meanwhile, Healy - who is suffering from the same garden-variety depression many of us face - can check himself into a private facility to do therapeutic crafts, drugs and talk therapy.     

 

Exactly.

11 hours ago, AllyB said:

Yeah, I can't imagine why that got her 6 years. She had a well-off supportive family, her father was a high enough ranking military officer, at least a Major as he was in the German flashbacks, but more likely a General as that's what Caputo called him on the phone. She'd have had a good lawyer and had committed a very, very minor crime. Even if she'd gotten the worst judge who just desperately wanted to make an example of her, he family would have appealed and gotten her off. It was a wonderful juxtaposition of this woman having the best night ever which ultimately ended her life because she was very barely committing a crime. But it didn't fit with her background of someone with a 6 year sentence. 

I think its a mandatory minimum.  She said she was "selling off her stash" to the hare krishna (?) so she may have been carrying enough for a possession with intent to distribute/sell.  That makes it a federal crime, IIRC.  

10 hours ago, Princess Sparkle said:

Since I'm terrible at understanding legal stuff after googling it - is it possible that New York had mandatory sentencing?  And that because she had enough weed to qualify for "intent to distribute" that she just automatically got 6 years?  I honestly don't know the answer, but that's the only explanation I can think of to get to 6 years for that. 

I forgot this in my previous post, but the one thing I didn't like in the finale AND what didn't really ring true to me was Flaca and Maritza practicing their "sad" faces for when they're on camera. Especially considering they spent a decent part of the season trying to show that Maritza isn't as superficial as she's been portrayed, and especially because she was the victim of Humphrey's fucked up psyche. It's not like I think everyone in Litchfield had to be completely broken up by Poussey's death, but they both seemed uncharacteristically cold to me in that scene. 

I think its probably a mandatory minimum sentence depending on what she was carrying.  And I think you're spot on with the intent to distribute -- because thats the only thing that would make it a federal crime (and thereby putting her in a federal facility).

I don't think Maritza and Flaca were out of character.  I do think they are both just super self-centered and young, so they just don't care.  I don't see how a death could cause a case of the giggles, but whatever.

6 hours ago, Petunia13 said:

I don't get how they explain the sentencing for Poussey either. Morellos confused me too it was mail fraud for lying about packages being lost/stolen and stalking and threats? And she had like 6 more years on her button when she met piper episode one? Maybe the 2 crimes together made it more severe?

its weird to me there's rapists and molesters and people who commit vehicular homicide who get way less time than Poussey who was harmless. And Morello who honestly needed mental health treatment. 

I think that may be a commentary on mandatory minimum sentences, which I think mostly apply to federal crimes and not state crimes.  That gives a judge more leeway.  Of course, this doesn't always work out well.....as in the case of Brock Turner.

15 hours ago, Petunia13 said:

the way Poussey was killed reminded me of Sandra Bland and others who have died in police custody recently. And that bothered me. Because it was close to reality 

Yeah, I think this show always has found a way to comment on current events...but this time some of these really hit close to home.

[AllyB]

I don't think it is a minimum sentence in New York. It was almost certainly marijuana and she had less than an ounce. Depending on when she was arrested that may not even go on your record in New York. Currently the most likely penalty is just a fine she would have been easily able to afford and suspension of her driving license. Presumably she was arrested before it was decriminalised in 2014, so I don't know the minimum sentence back then. But for that quantity of cocaine the minimum sentence is 1 year. Regardless of her skin colour and the obvious racism in the US justice system, there is absolutely no realistic way Poussey was serving a 6 year sentence for that crime, not with her background.

[Clanstarling]

On ‎6‎/‎20‎/‎2016 at 8:38 AM, TrudyC said:

I like this article about what happened in the last couple of episodes. It also touches on the question I had about the last scene: was this a night that took place before she was sent to prison, or was this her afterlife? http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2016/06/orange-is-the-new-black-death

I thought it was her afterlife after she passed by Bayley in one scene, and then I thought (though I could be wrong) that the woman singing opera was Aleida. There were so many things that could be taken as "signs", from the duck (which crapped, kind of appropriate) to the lost phone and her efforts to connect with her friends, but getting lost. It seemed to me a transitional state to the afterlife.

Caputo frustrates me because he's always been on the verge of doing the right thing, and his heart does tend to be in the right place much of the time, but then he makes the wrong choice every time. The only thing he really did right - and even that was a delayed action - was call Poussey's father. On the other hand, he's a classic case of a person having all the responsibility, but none of the authority. So he's set up to be ineffectual, no matter what.

On ‎6‎/‎24‎/‎2016 at 5:07 AM, Princess Sparkle said:

Speaking of the guards - I was going to put that very large one (no clue what his name is) in a category of "power hungry, but harmless" UNTIL he drove Bailey home and said that he shot a kid who was juggling grenades and strangled a woman after having sex with her, since he thought her parents would've killed her any way. Wtf; the way he just nonchalantly told Bailey that and thought he was helping was terrifying. 

I was open mouthed during this scene - it was chilling. I couldn't believe the casual evil. He is right in Humphrey's league, but not as obviously a psycho.

As dark as this season has been, I love the complexity and the exploration of what it means to be a human - both good and bad. I hadn't realized, for example, that Vouse's killer was someone she knew (or I'd forgotten), so that when she did strangle him, it wasn't just about surviving, it was killing someone she'd had at least some good experiences with. Much harder than a cut and dried saving your life situation.

It's been heartbreaking, and as always, I'm more interested in what happens with everyone but Piper.

[Maysie]

On 6/24/2016 at 11:28 AM, Madding crowd said:

If Caputo immediately threatens MCC, be would be removed and then the women would be left with Piscatella. He will probably be removed at some point anyway, but why not stay as long as possible and try to get more info to hang MCC with? It is also a very volatile time in the prison and more deaths could occur with only the guards in charge. I am really hoping that next season doesn't begin with Piscatella as head honcho, I don't think I would even want to watch that. Seeing these women basically tortured at the hands of psychopaths was bad enough in one season, don't want to see more of that. 

I'd like to think this is true, that Caputo is smart enough, thinks strategically enough, to be looking at the immediate picture and keeping the inmates' safety in mind. However, I think it's mainly just more weak Caputo. I know his heart is in the right place but you know what? Too fucking bad. His dick was in all the wrong places, which, imo, compounded his poor decision making. A woman is dead, partly because of him.

There's been a lot of blame bandied about, and I agree: the system (prison and mental health) surely failed everyone here, and Piscatella, Bailey and Suzanne all bear some responsibility for Poussey's death. However, Caputo also deserves to be singled out. A guard's dead body is discovered in the garden and what does the prison warden do? He goes to see Fig. WTH? He is the warden. He should have been there that night. It was his job. He really didn't know jack about Piscatella, had little track record with him and actually had to tell him that no, there would be no prisoner interrogations by the guards. That should have been a major red flag for him to stay on site that night.

I never really warmed up to Judy King because she was such a phony and her response to yoga was as expected. I doubt that she would have given Poussey a job in the outside world; I can easily see her responding with "you're who from where?" because when she's gone from Litchfield, she will be gone.

I've always been meh on Daya, however there was a part of me that cheered her on at the end. On one hand, I want that fucker dead but on the other hand, I don't want her to make things worse on herself because that asshole isn't worth it. There is a little bit of sweet justice that it's his own (illegal in this case) gun being turned on him.

Nicky is acting like a predator where Morello is concerned and it's creepy.

My wish for next season is that the hammer comes down - that Sophia's ex and Poussey's father pursue lawsuits and go very public with all this stuff. I feel like I need some sort of justice, or at least acknowledgement, because as Maddening Crowd said above, I can't keep watching these women get tortured.

[RCharter]

10 hours ago, AllyB said:

I don't think it is a minimum sentence in New York. It was almost certainly marijuana and she had less than an ounce. Depending on when she was arrested that may not even go on your record in New York. Currently the most likely penalty is just a fine she would have been easily able to afford and suspension of her driving license. Presumably she was arrested before it was decriminalised in 2014, so I don't know the minimum sentence back then. But for that quantity of cocaine the minimum sentence is 1 year. Regardless of her skin colour and the obvious racism in the US justice system, there is absolutely no realistic way Poussey was serving a 6 year sentence for that crime, not with her background.

You wouldn't go to a federal facility for a state crime.  Therefore, she would have to be holding enough to violate a federal statute.  Since she said that she was "selling off her stash" its believable that she had more than an ounce.

Under the commerce clause, congress only has the power to regulate interstate commerce.  So, the only way a drug crime can be a federal crime is if the person is carrying enough that there can be a presumption of "intent to sell" which triggers the interstate commerce clause.  If there is mere possession without an intent to distribute, than it is only a state crime.  And Poussay wouldn't be in a federal facility in the first place.  

Edited June 25, 2016 by RCharter

[SeanC]

Caputo's biggest problem is that he has too much conscience to be an effective cog in the corporate machine, but not enough to do anything about it.

Edited June 26, 2016 by SeanC

[Petunia13]

He's weak and always has been

[Captanne]

17 hours ago, Maysie said:

I feel like I need some sort of justice, or at least acknowledgement, because as Maddening Crowd said above, I can't keep watching these women get tortured.

I won't.

[shelley1234]

17 hours ago, Maysie said:

 

My wish for next season is that the hammer comes down - that Sophia's ex and Poussey's father pursue lawsuits and go very public with all this stuff. I feel like I need some sort of justice, or at least acknowledgement, because as Maddening Crowd said above, I can't keep watching these women get tortured.

Sadly...that is what prison is.  Inmates get raped, beaten, violated and tortured on the regular.  

[Josiah Bounderby]

I gave up trying to figure out why inmates were in Federal prison for what seemed like state crimes. Fictional show, fictional world, that's ok.

[Josiah Bounderby]

With this show renewed for three more seasons (!) it will be very interesting to see if the show is brave enough to say goodbye to beloved characters. It has to eventually, right? That's inherent in the show's DNA, that characters can cycle out and new ones cycle in. The show is feeling crowded now.

Daya, Lorna, Tuckey, Yoga Jones, Vause, Norma, Angie, Flaca. Dispensable? Who would you keep forever? (Red! Taystee!)

And what happens when the writers run out of story ideas related to the private management of the prison?

[RCharter]

1 hour ago, Josiah Bounderby said:

I gave up trying to figure out why inmates were in Federal prison for what seemed like state crimes. Fictional show, fictional world, that's ok.

Which crimes do you think were state crimes and not federal?  I think where that is concerned the writers have been very careful to be accurate.

And I think a few of the flashbacks didn't show the crime the party is in jail for now, but were just used to give us a feel for their life.  For example, I don't think that Lolly is in Litchfield for her arrest on the sidewalk.  But I think that that particular flashback was used to show us where Lolly was at, and I'm guessing she does something regarding that high-rise condo that is being built.

[annewithaneee]

Ultimately, I think Piscatello and Bailey are responsible for Poussey's death, both legally and morally. What Bailey made was a mistake, but when your fuckup results in someone being seriously injured or dead, you should still be held responsible, at the very least civilly. Don't get me wrong, I feel sympathy for him, but any time you take a job where you're taking care or keeping guard over people, there's a risk that shit goes sideways and even an honest mistake could have horrific consequences. Even under Piscatello-bred panic, you have to be responsible for what your body does to someone else's.

 And ultimately, while it sucks that MCC is going to do their very best to push all culpability and liability off on him, he really should have quit by now. It's like working for a piss poor managed nursing home or day care - you know eventually, you could get sued for being a part of the fuckery, because insurance is going to find a million reasons why they won't cover it - except in this case, you could also get shivved or killed in an all-but-impending riot.

But really, the entire thing was Piscatello's fault. Not just the weeks of endorsing or outright partaking in the abuse of the prisoner, but the actual scene itself: he provoked the inmate's reaction, and then commanded that the guards, outnumbered probably at least 10:1, start physically extracting the inmates in a small and overcrowded space with minimal exits. He's very lucky no one else died or was seriously hurt. Even without a Suzanne in the crew, that was an incredibly stupid move. Hell, that happened very early on, it's likely there was another scrum or two in the future for them. People could have easily gotten trampled.

I'm guessing that at least Taystee does blame Suzanne it, but they're stuck. They're a friend-family, and they're doing all they can to keep her out of Psych. There's no chance of her ever getting the treatment she needs, Psych is basically a death sentence, and it seems like prior to the Stanford Prison Experiment era of Litchfield, they could help her manage her triggers. I'm guessing she didn't land in Psych for the beating because Piscatello didn't want a paper trail on any of that. And if I were in Poussey's family, I wouldn't think about lashing out at Suzanne right now, because it would completely break her and cause a lot more heartache and hassle. Taystee handled it by getting away from her.

As an aside, I loved that "Bird by Bird" by Anne LaMotte made an appearance here. That was the book Red read from in the garden. Also, Judy King was reading it in an earlier episode. I read it this year, and I suspect it made the Litchfield rounds because it's a favorite of one of the writers -- it's basically a pep talk on writing, interspersed with some thoughts on life in general. Apparently, Anne is a white lady with dreds who made some transphobic jokes about Caitlyn Jenner on Twitter, but that book's pretty good. Not something I would expect multiple inmates to feel compelled to pick up, but it was a nice touch.

[kelslamu]

My first thought was that Healy was going to see him Mom.  I guess that doesn't make sense because they inferred he didn't know where his mother is or if she's alive, for that matter.  

[kelslamu]

On 6/22/2016 at 4:12 PM, Aja said:

As a contrast, the way Nicky forced herself on Lorna a couple of times, even after Lorna made it absolutely clear that she now considers herself a faithful wife, made me way more uncomfortable. 

I completely agree with this.  She acted as if Lorna had no say in any of it.  It was just gross to me.

[kelslamu]

On 6/24/2016 at 9:45 PM, kaygeeret said:

 

Regarding the last scene with Daya, the gun, the guard and the inmates - I want Frieda to step up, shoot the psycho guard and then pass the gun around for everyone to touch everywhere (after emptying it of bullets).  No way in hell to tell who shot the f****r.

Now THAT would have fit in beautifully!  I think Daya is finally acting out, but not using her brain at all.  Act out when you are out of prison and have your kid back.  In a subtle, non-arresting way, of course.

Edited June 26, 2016 by kelslamu

[Maysie]

2 hours ago, annewithaneee said:

They're a friend-family

I highlighted that because it's one of the things that really struck me in the episode. There's been discussion about the ethnic/racial/ideological cliques throughout the season and I felt that the episode underscored that they are more than groups of people. Individual inmates came to pay respects to Poussey's prison family, bringing gifts, etc., and obviously putting thought into what they presented. And then Maria's discussion about making a special food for them when the kitchen was back open. The inmates lost one of their own, but there was definite acknowledgement of Poussey's prison family. I thought it was a nice touch.

[Kel Varnsen]

On ‎2016‎-‎06‎-‎19 at 9:22 PM, Megan said:

Did Poussey's GENERAL father allow her to serve time to teach her a lesson? There is no way he lets her death go especially if that's the case.. and he'll have serious back up.

Didn't Poussey say to Judy King that her father was a major in the army. Does that mean she has been in prison long enough to get at least 3 promotions, if he is now a general?

 

Quote

 

Until the riot, I was surprised by how restrained Taystee seemed emotionally.  I thought she'd act a lot angrier upon learning Caputo never called Poussey's father.  Maybe she was too numb/just trying to keep it together.

 

I was really surprised that Taystee didn't just call the cops from her phone outside Caputo's office. Even when she went to work she really seemed like she didn't give a fuck anymore. I did like how pretty much no prisoners could call because it tied back to the guards doing a phone sweep earlier in the season and Luschek finding a ton of them.
 

Quote

 

IKNOWRIGHT? I thought he was an unlovable scamp until he mentioned casually murdering two people and totally buying his own hype that it's not killing killing, not to anyone who counts, not when we do it. 

 

What the fuck was that? It seems like just about all the new guards/vets are either psychopaths or war criminals now. Where exactly did they advertise for these jobs? It would have been nice I thought to see a few more ex-military guards who aren't worse than any of the criminals.
 

Quote

 

but you would have thought Suzanne's lawyers could have gotten her into a facility where she could receive treatment and not toss her in a pen. Maybe they'll address it next season. I have a feeling Suzanne is pretty doomed after this.

 

A lot of what I know about US prisons comes from Jon Oliver, but isn't it pretty common for mentally ill people to end up in the prison system, just because there aren't as many hospitals to treat them as one would hope. So unfortunately it doesn't really surprise me that Suzanne is there, especially since in her case I can see it being a super high profile case where a tonne of people would be calling for her to be locked up.

[Maysie]

1 hour ago, Kel Varnsen said:

It would have been nice I thought to see a few more ex-military guards who aren't worse than any of the criminals.

I was kind of thinking about that. I wonder if any veterans' groups will have something to say about the portrayal of the guards. To be sure, there are more than enough soldiers suffering from PTSD from the recent conflicts, however this isn't doing them any favors. Perhaps it's to make MCC look especially bad, willing/able to only hire the otherwise unemployable because it's so cheap. But I agree that it would have been nice to see that at least one or two of the nice guys were also combat veterans.

[dmc]

"So maybe this show's enormous, diverse, excellent ensemble doesn't need to be quite so enormous. It's been four seasons; maybe some of these characters (including, I'm sorry to say, Poussey) have run their course. "

I don't think any of the characters have run their course, they evolved as people based on their relationships and time incarcerated.

And "These are characters I love, but maybe it's time they were up for early release or went out in a blaze of glory," This isn't how good writing works. Good writing doesn't make characters do certain things to drive the plot. The plot is driven by who the characters are as people.

[questionfear]

On 6/24/2016 at 11:26 AM, Amerilla said:

* In terms of how much of Piper's 15-month sentence is done, Daya met Bennett not long after Piper arrived and got pregnant relatively quickly. At the start of S4, she's still recovering from having the baby. So based on that, Piper has been in probably 10-12 months at this point.  

Also, I think they've purposely been vague about whether Piper got dinged for perjury in S2. Her testimony was the opposite of Alex, so there's a good shot she may have had another year tacked on for lying under oath too. They likely left it a little unclear so they could choose to jettison her whenever, and if it seems like she's been in longer, toss in a perjury reference and call it good. 

[RCharter]

20 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Didn't Poussey say to Judy King that her father was a major in the army. Does that mean she has been in prison long enough to get at least 3 promotions, if he is now a general?

 

What the fuck was that? It seems like just about all the new guards/vets are either psychopaths or war criminals now. Where exactly did they advertise for these jobs? It would have been nice I thought to see a few more ex-military guards who aren't worse than any of the criminals.

Just ties back into how great an idea it was on paper to hire ex-vets, but if you don't do a really good background check and psychological evaluation it could come out badly.  

Sad to say, but I think there was stuff going on in Iraq that we had no idea about.  And the longer some of those guys were over there, the more likely they were to get PTSD or some other form of trauma.  Abu Garib only came out because someone took pictures.

I bet MCC did no background checks/psych evals and Linda was clear that MCC gets more money the longer the vet was in combat.

My biggest hope would be that the press gets a hold of this and does their own background checks into the guards.  I think the longer the standoff goes on, the more likely this is to happen.

[RCharter]

18 hours ago, Maysie said:

I was kind of thinking about that. I wonder if any veterans' groups will have something to say about the portrayal of the guards. To be sure, there are more than enough soldiers suffering from PTSD from the recent conflicts, however this isn't doing them any favors. Perhaps it's to make MCC look especially bad, willing/able to only hire the otherwise unemployable because it's so cheap. But I agree that it would have been nice to see that at least one or two of the nice guys were also combat veterans.

Isn't the female guard a war vet?  She doesn't seem like the worst, she just seems like she is trying to keep her head down.

Ugh, who is really all that nice at this point?  Bayley?  Everyone else seems to just be different shades of sucks.

There is the black guy, but he maybe said three words this season.

I don't like Healy at all -- even when he shows signs of humanity its quickly flushed as he tries to control and threaten whomever he is "helping."

[WhosThatGirl]

Yes the female guard is also a war vet. And she has tired to get to know the girls and be friendly but also I think she shys away from causing problems because it is like you kind of implied a boys club. When Martiz was getting sick a day after the mouse thing she tried to say something but the other male guard was kind of, "one does something we all do it" and she stayed quiet. 

[Duke2801]

Guys, that was truly heart-wrenching. That last shot of her smiling? Wow.  Chills - and tears. 

I'm so upset that she won't be a part of next season, but I understand why the writers did what they did. 

I SO wanted Piscatella and his merry band of psychopaths to get what's coming to them before the season wrapped up.  But I guess we'll have to wait for season 5 to see what happens. 

 

On ‎6‎/‎21‎/‎2016 at 9:50 AM, JessePinkman said:

Yeah, I don't think Poussey turning to the camera in the final scene was her in the afterlife, it was just the show breaking the fourth wall for maximum effect. And boy did it fucking work. I've re-watched that scene too many times to count now. It's such a gut punch.

Agreed!  Plus, remember the photo that she and her 2 friends took at the beginning of her flashback series?  That was the same Facebook photo that those DOJ guys found when they were looking for "evidence" against her.  So the events of that night clearly took place before her arrest, not after her untimely demise. 

On ‎6‎/‎24‎/‎2016 at 5:10 AM, knaankos said:

ummm you should probably go back and watch season 2 sometime... Poussey and Vee are at the completely opposite ends the spectrum as far as like-ability. 

Yeah I couldn't help but think that maybe the person who said Vee meant somebody else?  Because comparing Poussay's death to Vee's is like comparing ....  apples and spaceships. 

Edited June 27, 2016 by Duke2801

[Duke2801]

On ‎6‎/‎24‎/‎2016 at 5:10 AM, knaankos said:

ummm you should probably go back and watch season 2 sometime... Poussey and Vee are at the completely opposite ends the spectrum as far as like-ability. 

Ooops sorry -- ignore please!  

Edited June 27, 2016 by Duke2801
added this thought to my previous post instead of making it a separate one

[WhosThatGirl]

10 minutes ago, Duke2801 said:

Guys, that was truly heart-wrenching. That last shot of her smiling? Wow.  Chills - and tears. 

I'm so upset that she won't be a part of next season, but I understand why the writers did what they did. 

I SO wanted Piscatella and his merry band of psychopaths to get what's coming to them before the season wrapped up.  But I guess we'll have to wait for season 5 to see what happens. 

 

Agreed!  Plus, remember the photo that she and her 2 friends took at the beginning of her flashback series?  That was the same Facebook photo that those DOJ guys found when they were looking for "evidence" against her.  So the events of that night clearly took place before her arrest, not after her untimely demise. 

Yeah I couldn't help but think that maybe the person who said Vee meant somebody else?  Because comparing Poussay's death to Vee's is like comparing ....  apples and spaceships. 

I'm the one who said it and I meant that the only person who died on this show was Vee and I said in my original post that in my personal real life I didn't know anyone who liked Vee but I was saying she could have had her fans I and people I knew didn't like her. But I used her as a reference because she was the only character who died on this show before Poussays and she wasn't universely liked like Poussay was. That's what my post was saying.