S01.E10: The Verdict

[hoosiermom]

If I remember correctly, the verdict wasn't read until the next day. I believe the police et al were preparing for possible riots and that is why Ito chose to do it that way.

Edited April 6, 2016 by hoosiermom

[beesknees]

Wow, it all comes rushing back, that sick feeling in the pit of my stomach.

Yeah, I was having a rough day today.  Watched this before going to bed.  WTH was I thinking? :(

[psychoticstate]

Damn, this show.  Just damn.

 

It's still playing out here on the West Coast but I have burst into tears at least 3 times - - at Kim Goldman's painful cry during the verdict, at Robert Kardashian's grief and physical illness and at Chris Darden breaking down emotionally during the press conference.  Damn you, O.J. Simpson.

 

This show has thrown me back to 1994 and 1995.  Knowing the outcome didn't lessen my tension, stress and grief.

 

that underneath this cast of crazy real-life characters that you couldn't make up was the fact that this was really about two people who were murdered.

 

At first this case was about two people that were murdered and that's what it should have been about, period.  But between Cochran, Ito, Fuhrman and the stubborn and easily compliant jurors, it became about anything but.

[VCRTracking]

Man, that last scene between Darden and Cochran.

[Umbelina]

Once again, at the party, just about everyone towering over OJ.  Surely the women could have worn lower heels, or they could have cast shorter background people...

 

Minor quibble in an overall great series though.

[VCRTracking]

"Miss Diana Ross".

[Andromeda]

I would have liked one final sentence on the last slide, under Nicole and Ron's photos:

 

"No one has ever been convicted of their murders."

 

Just to tie it in with O.J.'s fake attempt to find the "real" killers -- and that stupid question by the reporter at the press conference, too.

 

I agree Cuba was miscast -- he's just too small. Part of the whole thing is how big and powerful OJ was then, especially compared to Nicole and Ron. The defense tried to make out OJ had old football injuries that practically made him a cripple, which is a real eye-roller, considering he had just been doing athletic activities in the public eye.

 

I really enjoyed this, despite the noxious verdict. I hope there are more seasons. In retrospect, it really wasn't the trial of the century (not like the Scopes trial, or dozens of other more meaningful trials), but it was definitely the most publicized for its time.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Andromeda

[drivethroo]

Given the racial tensions of the day, even if Johnnie Cochran had brought in an all black security detail (non NOI) people would've had a problem with it. There was just no way to know which white person was sending death threats...for all we know Shapiro could've been sending threats.

Some of the articles posted up thread mention the shunning various members of the dream team & Simpson himself faced. I totally forgot how OJ was persona non grata after the verdict. The white folks he craved and yearned for were not here for him. Those folks ran him out of LA. He should've just ran to Florida and laid low for the rest of his life (or leave the U.S.). Instead he partied it up with that girl that looked like Nicole and claimed to be Anna Nicole's baby daddy.

OJ yearned for white love so badly he figured if he couldn't have their adoration and love then he could at least have their attention. He got his Man'Tan on and the rest is history,

[Callaphera]

Once again, at the party, just about everyone towering over OJ.  Surely the women could have worn lower heels, or they could have cast shorter background people...

 

Minor quibble in an overall great series though.

 

I couldn't help it. When I watched that scene, I turned to Mr. Callaphera and said, "Oh, look, it's Rod Tidwell's fall from grace. He's so short, he doesn't have far to fall."

 

It's cool. I'm already going to Hell. 

 

(That was my one main complaint about the series: I couldn't see him as OJ because of the physical differences and voice, and I kept calling him Rod Tidwell and joking about how this was the sequel to Jerry Maguire.)

[Kbilly]

Rod Tidwell's bod looked a lot better air-drying in Jerry Maguire though!

 

This show was fantastic. My heart breaks for the forgotten victims and I loved Marsha's speech about how she had lost faith in justice. The circus of people outside of the courtroom made me feel ill--the Oprah verdict reading special, wow this country was truly wild. Cuba was great at portraying the crushing realization that his life was over. Did AC ever doubt OJ like Kardashian did?

 

So the Browns had to let OJ, the murderer of their daughter, take her children away across country and raise them? Shivers.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Kbilly

[Andromeda]

One thing I'm SO GLAD they got right - the clerk court's initial mispronunciation of "Orenthal".  While reading the verdict for the murder charge of Nicole, she stumbled over his given name and just about everyone in the courtroom flinched.  She corrected herself and pronounced it correctly when reading the verdict for the murder charge of Ron.

 

Ever since then, whether it be news clips or documentaries about the case they always only use the audio of the verdict reading of the correct pronunciation of "Orenthal".

I actually have heard it dozens of times since the live tv verdict was read, at least in documentaries and retrospectives, so not every editor cuts it out.

 

So the Browns had to let OJ, the murderer of their daughter, take her children away across country and raise them? Shivers.

No kidding. They got visitation, and when the Goldmans and Browns won the civil suit, the Browns got back custody (or at least when he went to prison, I'm not sure.) It was all very messy.

 

Another good article from Nicole's sister's point of view about the shared custody.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Andromeda

[biakbiak]

What were those alternatives? At that point in the trial, Cochran would've had no way to know which white person was sending death threats and LAPD little incentive to find out. Can't hire a white security firm, or security firm who has whites in the payroll ...again, they can't be trusted.

Cochran didn't hire them. They showed up but he knew the optics and allowed them to be part of the story. Lots of people during this trial got death threats, they highlighted Johnnie to frame the story of the Fruit of Islam being part of the story but if he had ask them to not be present he wouldn't have been in danger.

Edited April 6, 2016 by biakbiak

[BW Manilowe]

In a way, it showed me how unaffected Ito was by the trial. He didn't quit. He just kept being a judge for another 20 years. It was the ultimate symbol of his indifference to the importance of the case itself.

I tried to remain as OJ free as possible during the actual trial. I didn't see the Bronco chase. I didn't watch the verdict live. It all seemed dumb and disgusting. With the miniseries, I can see the case in context, with at least some of the reality behind the scenes.

I liked the interview with Marcia Clark where she described how one potential witness told her she couldn't win the case, but that Brentwood would expel OJ. He was part of the Riviera Golf Club.

OJ lived in the Brentwood section of Los Angeles though.

[Simon Boccanegra]

I'll have a lot more to say about the finale specifically, I'm sure, but hats off to FX and everyone involved with The People v. OJ Simpson. Even the actors who were not great casting and couldn't overcome it had obviously worked hard and tried to capture their characters.

 

When the actual OJ Simpson trial was winding down, I never would have guessed that one day I would be riveted for ten weeks as it was recreated with stars of Friends, Charlie's Angels, Welcome Back Kotter, The Cosby Show, St. Elsewhere, and Northern Exposure. I will never believe that justice was served in the OJ Simpson criminal case, but justice was done to a difficult and painful subject. I doubt we will see better writing, direction, and acting on television in 2016 than this series was at its best, and there was much in the finale to love. 

 

I am sad at the ending, not for the reason I was sad when the trial ended. I have a feeling of loss over lives snuffed out and lives squandered. I'm even as close to being sympathetic to OJ Simpson as I can be. Which admittedly is not very, but...you know. Even before the civil trial and the robbery conviction, as the last half hour of this episode truthfully demonstrated, he had lost big. And I think he loved Nicole Brown Simpson. It isn't a kind of love anyone should respect, or (God knows) want for themselves, but there was something that kept these two in each other's orbit, something that wasn't there with Marguerite, something that kept Paula Barbieri or any number of other women from being "the new Nicole." He crossed a line that night, and whether he was acquitted or convicted, there was no coming back.   

 

Brief critique: This show was at its best when showing us things that might have happened, or the "essential" truth. It was less good when recreating courtroom drama shot for shot , line by line. By my lights, they were 0 for 3 in representing the closing arguments. Both prosecutors in the show were made to look better than the real thing. Clark's actual arguments betrayed exhaustion and inadequate preparation; Real Clark wishes she had sounded as focused and crisp as Paulson did. Darden was low-energy and often nearly inaudible; Ito actually had to ask him to speak up.

 

That said, they did have a few moments of eloquence, and I wish the best part of Clark's rebuttal had been included ("I think the thing that perhaps was so chilling about her voice is that sound of resignation. There was a resignation to it. Inevitability. She knew she was going to die. And Ron, he speaks to you. In struggling so valiantly, he forced his murderer to leave the evidence behind that you might not ordinarily have found. And they both are telling you who did it with their hair, their clothes, their bodies, their blood. They tell you he did it. He did it. Mr. Simpson. Orenthal Simpson. He did it").  

 

And Real Cochran was animated and passionate, but Vance was playing him almost demonic. I found that part of the dramatization frankly grotesque. 

 

An example of something the series did so much better (than the courtroom recreations) was that last scene between Clark and Darden. Who knows how truthful it was, but it had emotional truth. Good actors and writers were liberated to follow their imagination and instincts. For the other stuff, we all know how to get to YouTube.  

Edited April 6, 2016 by Simon Boccanegra

[Bryce Lynch]

I think the finale did a great job showing how wrong the verdict was, but also how it SEEMED reasonable to the black jurors.

There was way more than enough evidence to convict, but Fuhrman, the reputation of the LAPD, and the sloppy evidence handling not only tainted the evidence directly affected, in the minds of the jury, but put rock solid evidence in doubt.

If the prosecution had 200% of the evidence needed to convict, the defense didn't need to discredit 105 or 110%, but only 5 or 10% to to make the jury believe their was "reasonable" doubt.

Add that to Cochran calling on them to use their "power" to make social change and I was not surprised by the unjust veridct.

In the long run, it might have worked out for good. The LAPD got a needed rebuke, evidence handling procedures were strengthened, the Goldmans got civil jury to declare OJ a murderer and OJ is rotting in jail on trumped up charges in what might be the greatest example of 2 wrongs making a right.

[benteen]

Great finale.  I didn't expect much from this show when it was announced.  I was only curious because it was going to mark Travolta's return to television.  But this show turned out to be a great piece of television.  The cast was fantastic with absolutely standout performances by Sarah Paulson, Courtney B. Vance and Sterling Brown.

 

I was impressed with how they laid out the episode.  Both closing statements, the jury deliberation, the verdict.  I felt that train wreck suspense before the verdict was announced, knowing how it was going to turn out.  It impressed me that they kept even the little detail of the court clerk botching OJ's first name, something I always remember. 

 

Clark's closing argument was strong and Darden's was powerful.  I remember as well Darden hugging the Goldman family.

 

I did laugh at the whole Shapiro/Cochran/Bailey argument over the bodyguards, particularly Bailey's line at the end.

 

I'm definitely interested in seeing what some of the cast members do as a follow-up.

[SiouxB]

My favorite line of last night was when Darden and Cochran had their final scene...

Cochran: I'll bring you back into the community."

Darden: "I never left."

[Empress1]

"Miss Diana Ross".

I loved that. You will give her a title, dammit!

 

David Schwimmer was the surprise for me. I've long known Courtney B. Vance can act his ass off (I would love to have been a fly on the wall when he went home and talked to Angela Bassett about work when he was filming this - they're one of my favorite celeb couples), and Sarah Paulson too. Ross was my least favorite character on Friends and I've never thought much of Schwimmer as an actor. (I had an encounter with him when he was eating at a restaurant a few doors down from my old NYC building and he was very nice.) I think he's been directing a lot since Friends. When I heard he was in this I was like " ... Okay ..." but I thought he was excellent. Ditto Sterling K. Brown - that scene between him and Vance at the end gave me chills. (Darden was, and is, completely right about black people and the police. I fear cops.)

[lovinbob]

Now that it's over, I think it was a great show, well acted, well produced. And I also think it was absolute bullshit. It didn't investigate the case or the killings or what made it so compelling 20 years ago -- Murphy & Co. wanted to make a show about a miscarriage of justice, and that's what they showed. It was total bullshit that key parts of the defense's case -- like Henry Lee, like the obliteration of Fung, things that brought into real question the viability of the collected evidence -- were barely mentioned or brushed aside. There were big problems with the state's case that went beyond race baiting, and it was a total screw job that this show is the way the case is now viewed and remembered. Add into that the way they portrayed the jury, as the white members being bullied by their black peers, was reprehensible. We don't know what happened in that room, but to portray it the way they did, without even a hint of the white jurors making a case or an argument, was, well, flat out wrong. It presents as fact that the jury acted wrongly, and frankly, that may be what Murphy believes, but it's absolutely not a fact, nor is it one that any juror has ever suggested. No one was in the room where it happened besides those jurors, and to present their behavior in that light was, like I said, just wrong. 

 

Good show, I hope it wins some awards (though I like The Americans a lot more), and an interesting way to revisit a piece of history. Just not a very fair one. 

I didn't see it as bullshit at all, and I didn't see it as trying to portray a miscarriage of justice. I came away with the feeling that reasonable people could disagree about the outcome, and that people's experiences informed how they received critical information. As someone who has never been accused of a crime, falsely or justly, or had a family member or close friend implicated by the police, it's easy for me to overlook Mark Fuhrmann being a racist liar, proven in court. But fresh from the King verdicts, in which cops were acquitted despite video evidence, not to mention the experiences that many of those black jurors likely had, I don't blame them for being highly skeptical of Fuhrmann's motives, truthfulness, and the fruits of his search. Further, as I am currently living through what I see as many outrageous miscarriages of justice, from the failure to indict the police officer who choked Eric Garner to death, to the failure to convict George Zimmerman, to the failure to indict the officer who murdered Tamir Rice (the list goes on and on), it is clear as day to me that we have many reasons to be skeptical of police conduct when investigating people of color.

 

Well then you'll just have to chalk me up to being an anti Semite because there's no way Johnnie Cochran would've gotten any decent protection with the LAPD or a private white security firm.

Who else was going to protect Johnnie? certainly not the police or white security firms. Who else was left then? The Black Panthers? The Crips? The Bloods? Each of those groups would've been found problematic.

Sorry, but during those times (and hell even now) I'll trust the Fruit of Islam to protect me more than the police. If that makes me or Johnnie Cochran and anti-Semite, I'm good with that. It was widely known in the 90s that if you wanted protection, you want people patrolling your streets to make them safer, you call the Fruit of Islam, not the police.

Perhaps I'm naive, but I think anyone Cochran was willing to pay would have defended his life with everything they have.

"Miss Diana Ross".

What *is* that?!

 

I'll have a lot more to say about the finale specifically, I'm sure, but hats off to FX and everyone involved with The People v. OJ Simpson. Even the actors who were not great casting and couldn't overcome it had obviously worked hard and tried to capture their characters.

 

When the actual OJ Simpson trial was winding down, I never would have guessed that one day I would be riveted for ten weeks as it was recreated with stars of Friends, Charlie's Angels, Welcome Back Kotter, The Cosby Show, St. Elsewhere, and Northern Exposure. I will never believe that justice was served in the OJ Simpson criminal case, but justice was done to a difficult and painful subject. I doubt we will see better writing, direction, and acting on television in 2016 than this series was at its best, and there was much in the finale to love. 

 

I am sad at the ending, not for the reason I was sad when the trial ended. I have a feeling of loss over lives snuffed out and lives squandered. I'm even as close to being sympathetic to OJ Simpson as I can be. Which admittedly is not very, but...you know. Even before the civil trial and the robbery conviction, as the last half hour of this episode truthfully demonstrated, he had lost big. And I think he loved Nicole Brown Simpson. It isn't a kind of love anyone should respect, or (God knows) want for themselves, but there was something that kept these two in each other's orbit, something that wasn't there with Marguerite, something that kept Paula Barbieri or any number of other women from being "the new Nicole." He crossed a line that night, and whether he was acquitted or convicted, there was no coming back.  

I'd argue that Nicole's murder, and the prosecution of OJ for it, is what kept Paula Barbieri from becoming the new Nicole. Yes, there was something that kept these two in each other's orbit. Namely, the exercise of power, control, and abuse by a wealthy narcissist over his wife and the mother of his children, who somehow could not fully grasp that she didn't deserve it.

 

I refuse to call what OJ felt for Nicole "love." I think that's what he would say, but beating, stalking, verbally abusing, and terrorizing your wife does not equal love, by any definition.

I did laugh at the whole Shapiro/Cochran/Bailey argument over the bodyguards, particularly Bailey's line at the end.

Nathan Lane and the writers made F. Lee Bailey look far better than he deserved.

[drivethroo]

 

Cochran didn't hire them. They showed up but he knew the optics and allowed them to be part of the story. Lots of people during this trial got death threats, they highlighted Johnnie to frame the story of the Fruit of Islam being part of the story but if he had ask them to not be present he wouldn't have been in danger.

 

So are you saying if Fruit of Islam hadn't shown up, Cochran wouldn't have gotten death threats? That he got death threats because the FOI showed up?

 

 

David Schwimmer was the surprise for me.

 

 

Yes, at the beginning of the series I was calling him "Ross Kardashian."  By the end, he was Robert Kardashian to me.  His portrayal last night was heartbreaking.

[WescottF1]

"Miss Diana Ross".

 

I guffawed at that.

[tiredofwork]

I am of the generation that watched O.J. Simpson play college football, win the Heisman and go on to be spectacular in the NFL, watched his foray into acting and all that.   Like most dudes, loved to watch him run.

 

Also watched all of the trial drama when it went down.  I remember when the news first broke the story of the murders, my thought was I hope O.J. wasn't involved and I had some sense of relief momentarily when they said he was out of town.  However, as we know that "out of town" was after the murders.

 

Real, real conflict about the entire matter.  In my heart and mind I think O.J. Simpson is a despicable, demonic human being who savagely murdered 2 people.  Also he essentially tortured his wife for years with his crazy,

 

However.., I am clearly aware of the very odd dynamic of the time and I guess you had to live it to understand and of course seeing things through each of our eyes will be different.

 

As an Af-Am male, I simply don't think that the prosecution proved "beyond a shadow of a doubt" that O.J. did what intellectually most, including me believe he did.  Primarily, there was never any recovery of the murder weapon.  I understand that there was the pyramid of evidence otherwise, however, the times being what they were in the Black Community (after Rodney King )certainly played into this whole travesty. 

 

While many label it horrific, the defense by the Simpson team did what eventually worked. They used a defense of conspiracy that the Black Community felt and feels today is real.   Hell at times they had me convinced that this collection of "keystone cops" could have done something underhanded. Which again in my mind goes to the "shadow of a doubt".

 

This was yet another very ugly period that surfaced in America from a racial standpoint.  Some commentators went so far as to say that African-Americans didn't have the mentality to ever serve on a jury suggesting only white folk should be jurors. 

 

 I thought the montage at the end where they showed the different reactions from the Black Community to the White Community was brilliant.   I myself worked in an office setting that when we heard the announcement, White folks were devastated.  I was 1 of 2 Black folk and we just remained intentionally ambiguous.  Not that we wanted to scream and shout for joy, because that was just stupid.., but because we read the room and knew this was a racial divide and that could have social work environment dynamic issues for years to come.  Even though we maintained neutrality, the white part of the office kept a distance in what appeared to be anger at US, for quite some time.

Edited April 6, 2016 by tiredofwork

[TobinAlbers]

Dropping the Bible is the new dropping the mic. The way that scene was shot between OJ and Bobby with OJ sensing something amiss to look up and catch Bobby's eye and the confusion, fear, and shock on OJ's face when Bobby dropped that Bible on the table and left was just great. They even slowed it up as a 'moment in time' that both men would remember and OJ just looked so forlorn when he realized *Bobby* was done with him. So good.

 

I admit it, they made me feel bad for OJ- at least the fictional OJ that was on this show. Cuba did a great job in the Bronco episode and in his private scenes tonight to show the turmoil that OJ was in with having to live with the choices he made and the consequences. Not sure if it will be revealed that he had CTE upon his death and a brain biopsy, but if it is proven to be the case...damn. And yes, I know not everyone with CTE kills or physically harms but that can be said about many people with mental illness that includes impulse control, decision making issues, and mood swings. Not all harm, but unfortunately some do and it's literally because they are not in their right mind.  The way Cuba portrayed OJ on one hand he could appear to be baffled people could believe he did this, but I think one could also interpret -in those private moments- a confusion and bafflement in how things got so out of control, how HE could've gone so out of control and killed Nicole. There was just enough lucidity to know something was wrong with him, but a fear and pride and denial of what it was and desperate need to bury it.

 

I got where Marcia was coming from with her vengeance for victims fueling her, but she missed that it was a sense of justice and vengeance that fueled the jury and Cochran in defending OJ and finding him not guilty. For her it was against her gender (although rape can happen to men, too) but since it was about race for the jury and Cochran and she couldn't connect on that level, she didn't realize that in a way both sides were fighting for the same thing albeit from different motivations.

 

Edited to Add: Love seeing the collective reaction shots across the nation as the verdict was read. Oprah's was especially interesting.

Edited April 6, 2016 by TobinAlbers

[Aethera]

Good morning everyone!

 

Everyone back to their corners on the Johnny Cochran/death threats/Fruit of Islam discussion please. Clearly, we're not capable of discussing this calmly, so let's not discuss it at all. 

[txhorns79]

While many label it horrific, the defense by the Simpson team did what eventually worked. They used a defense of conspiracy that the Black Community felt and feels today is real.   Hell at times they had me convinced that this collection of "keystone cops" could have done something underhanded. Which again in my mind goes to the "shadow of a doubt".

 

I think the defense played on the worst in people to help a murderer get off.  I fully agree that some of the police work was sloppy, there were poor prosecution witnesses and that Clark's trial strategy was badly planned as she misunderstood what she was dealing with.  Having said that, the idea that corrupt cops got together to plot what would have been a fairly elaborate conspiracy to frame OJ is so wildly implausible that the only way it truly gets you to reasonable doubt is if you are ignoring the facts of this case, and bringing in a whole lot of other baggage saved up from other experiences to justify the verdict.     

[EdnasEdibles]

I was a freshman in college when the verdict was read and the use of the real news clips of people celebrating or being upset made me start crying. I remember that so vividly - we watched the verdict in the student center and the racial split on the reactions was just like that. I love that this show really did an amazing job of getting at all the intricacies of this trial. Having been older while it happened, I knew that the race issue was there and the class issue was there but the sexism (in regards to Marcia Clark) flew over my head completely in college. My only wish is that they had spent a bit more on the domestic abuse issue. What I distinctly remember from watching it all live was that most people didn't believe she had been abused or didn't care. I remember getting into a yelling match with a guy in a class because he was like "She never got abused!" and then finally he relented that she might have but "It's her own damn fault if she keeps going back" - that was something I heard - at least on a college campus - time and again. Maybe OJ beat her but it's kind of her own fault because she went back to him. 

[Lion18]

Wow, it all comes rushing back, that sick feeling in the pit of my stomach.

That's exactly what I texted my best friend while watching!

[smiley13]

I was a little disappointed that the show's producers chose to show the reactions to the verdict as being straight down a racial line, other than the prison guard who asked OJ to sign a football for him.  The "crowd" reaction shots really did seem to show a clear divide. 

[MamaMax]

I think the defense played on the worst in people to help a murderer get off.  I fully agree that some of the police work was sloppy, there were poor prosecution witnesses and that Clark's trial strategy was badly planned as she misunderstood what she was dealing with.  Having said that, the idea that corrupt cops got together to plot what would have been a fairly elaborate conspiracy to frame OJ is so wildly implausible that the only way it truly gets you to reasonable doubt is if you are ignoring the facts of this case, and bringing in a whole lot of other baggage saved up from other experiences to justify the verdict.     

 

Yes, I remember thinking at the time that the LAPD was to blame for the Not Guilty verdict-- how could they be so sloppy? Especially the chain-of-custody issues. I also remember wondering how, in LA, everyone would be so star-struck.  Shouldn't they have been used to celebrities? Shouldn't they have expected that OJ would have tons of money to mount an excellent defense? That made me somewhat blame the LA Co. DA and Clark.  Couldn't they see that their forensic evidence was not going to be enough, even though it was pretty damn overwhelming? 

 

After watching the show, I can see much more how the climate in LA in regard to race effected everyone.  As a young woman on the East coast, I didn't get that then.

[SFoster21]

They didn't show Cochran with that crookedy knit cap saying "if it doesn't fit, you must acquit." I remember thinking at the time that a lack of self-consciousness goes with being a successful trial lawyer because he looked seriously deranged.

The jury forewoman stated in an interview that she felt Cochran was a clown. She credited Barry Scheck as the lawyer that convinced her.

[EdnasEdibles]

Cochran's reputation certainly took a hit in public opinion. Let's not forget the South Park & Seinfeld parodies of him:

 

 

[DXD526]

I remembered the jury came back quickly, but I'd forgotten how quickly. Four hours' deliberation for a trial that dragged on like it did? Shapiro put it perfectly, that they discussed the case less than anyone. Everyone in America - maybe the world -  had been talking about the case nonstop for months, and the jury bats it around for four hours and comes to a definitive conclusion? 

 

Loved OJ going back to Brentwood and immediately having it put in his face that he's no longer welcome. He apparently thought he could just step right back into his old life; he was found not guilty, so what's the problem? There was a big question back then whether OJ would be able to have a career again. He had just done those "Naked Gun" movies that were a big hit. All it would take is a buddy in the business maybe giving him a small role in something, and if it was well received, maybe he could ease his way back in. It wasn't unthinkable at that point.

 

Did Cochran really offer to help "reintroduce" Darden to the black community? That is mind-blowingly, cluelessly arrogant.

[Joimiaroxeu]

I hope American Crime Story isn't going to have to compete with Game of Thrones (or The Americans) because I want it to win all the Emmys. All of them.

That Bill Withers song was an interesting choice given that he's known to have beaten actress Denise Nicholas when they were married back in the 70s.

 

If nothing else, I guess we can thank the horrific OJ case for the enduring use of the phrase, "playing the race card".

 

Edited because for some reason I was thinking of Nicole's sister instead of her.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Joimiaroxeu

[deerstalker]

I think the defense played on the worst in people to help a murderer get off.  I fully agree that some of the police work was sloppy, there were poor prosecution witnesses and that Clark's trial strategy was badly planned as she misunderstood what she was dealing with.  Having said that, the idea that corrupt cops got together to plot what would have been a fairly elaborate conspiracy to frame OJ is so wildly implausible that the only way it truly gets you to reasonable doubt is if you are ignoring the facts of this case, and bringing in a whole lot of other baggage saved up from other experiences to justify the verdict.     

 

I think the defense did a masterful job at showing that the LAPD "goosed" some of the evidence, whch I thnk the police tend to do as a matter of routine and convenience.  It's just very rare that anyone has the resources to call them out on it.  I think that anyone who thinks that the police framing OJ is wildly implausible, especially in light of LAPD's Rampart Scandal, where they uncovered hundreds of cases of LA police officers framing minority suspects, has willful naiveté. 

 

The truth is, the defense poked holes in pretty much all the forensic evidence, and much of the eyewitness testimony.  They showed that the comparison blood vial, which was supposed to contain only Simpson's blood, also contained Nicole's and Goldman's blood as well.  How can you trust anything the lab reports after that?  They showed that the bloodstain on the fence, was not "discovered" until weeks after the murders, did not appear in any of the photographs that night, and curiously, was not anywhere close to being degraded as it should have been after being outside for weeks.  Many of the blood samples that were supposed to have been taken that matched Simpson contained a preservative that was only added when blood is taken for lab work.  And coincidentally, a portion of Simpson's blood that was taken for lab work was "missing/mislogged" by authorities.  Add to that, one of your lead detectives has to plead the 5th when he is asked whether or not he has planted evidence in this case. 

 

For me the puzzle is why people think there was not reasonable doubt in this case.  After Fuhrman pleads the 5th, that's pretty much it.  It's hard not to clearly see that if a major part of the defense strategy is that the police planted evidence to frame your suspect, and you have an officer heavily involved in the case basically admitting such, your defendant is going to walk, pretty much 100% of the time, no matter who your defendant is.  Why would any reasonable jury ignore that?

[txhorns79]

I think that anyone who thinks that the police framing OJ is wildly implausible, especially in light of LAPD's Rampart Scandal, where they uncovered hundreds of cases of LA police officers framing minority suspects, has willful naiveté.

 

It's wildly implausible.  That the LAPD did other things in other cases doesn't mean it suddenly makes a conspiracy in this case plausible, given there was nothing to support a conspiracy that didn't fall apart with the barest of scrutiny.  The evidence was, and still remains, pretty overwhelming of Simpson's guilt.  That's why the defense had to create a fake conspiracy.   

[Chaos Theory]

I love finales. I will watch a finale of a show that I am only somewhat aware of so a show like this where I was enthralled from start to finish had me curious how it would end. I think I loved the ending for everyone involved. Yes I know these are real people but I can see some dramatic license involved as well. Dardens conversation with both Clark and Cochran was meaningful. I loved that Cochran thought he changed things and he might have for a second there but things went quickly back to status quo. I did really feel for him when he saw Clinton on TV speaking about change.

If anyone still sees David Schwimmer as Ross after seeing this we have nothing to talk about. He was awesome in this....awesome.

I think my favorite moment though belongs to OJ. Despite everyones gripes Cuba pulled it out in the end and put just the right amount of menace and outright narcissism in the roll. I loved the party scene when he asked where all his friends were and all he saw were strangers and hanger ons . Hell even Kato had the sense to avoid him. I loved the final moment when he walked outside and stared at his tarnished statue. Perfect symbolism.

On a side note: am I the only one who wants to read one of Marcia Clarks books?

Edited April 6, 2016 by Chaos Theory

[deerstalker]

It's wildly implausible.  That the LAPD did other things in other cases doesn't mean it suddenly makes a conspiracy in this case plausible, given there was nothing to support a conspiracy that didn't fall apart with the barest of scrutiny.  The evidence was, and still remains, pretty overwhelming of Simpson's guilt.  That's why the defense had to create a fake conspiracy.   

 

So we have an LAPD that has been shown routinely framing minority suspects. We have a police detective who has to take the 5th when asked if he planted evidence in this case.  We have a defense team lawyer who is an expert on DNA, and who shows that Simpson's, Nicole's, and Goldman's blood have already been mixed together in the comparison vial. That a percentage of Simpson's blood taken for comparison was "missing". That some of the evidence miraculously turns up weeks after the murders, but not in the original photographs, that some of the evidence spent the night over at detective's houses, and that blood taken from Simpson, instead of being logged immediately and taken to the lab, was driven over to the crime scene instead.  Remember, the defense does not have to prove the "planted evidence" theory beyond a reasonable doubt.  They just have to show that it was plausible.  Even without all of the fine job Scheck did of doing just that, Fuhrman pleading the 5th would have been more than enough to provide plausibility.

[dubbel zout]

The defense attorneys giving Shapiro the cold shoulder was hilarious. I didn’t know that he testified against Bailey and helped get him disbarred.

 

I had to laugh at that. I wonder how often that happens, attorneys turning on other attorneys like that.

 

I was holding my breath throughout the verdict rituals in the courtroom. This show did a superb job of building suspense for an outcome the audience already knew.

 

I hope this role makes cast directors and film producers stop seeing "Ross" when they look at David Schwimmer. He is a talented actor who deserves meaty dramatic roles.

 

I think his focus these days is on directing, so it's more his choice not to be acting, not that he can't get roles.

 

real images side by side with the actors.

 

That reinforced how amazing the casting, hair, and makeup was. There were some real doppelgängers in there.

 

Add that to Cochran calling on them to use their "power" to make social change and I was not surprised by the unjust verdict.

 

Yeah, he was basically telling them it was okay to find Simpson not guilty, because there would be a bigger justice in that. That was really interesting to me.

 

In the long run, it might have worked out for good.

 

That was Cochran's ultimate goal: He wanted to put the system on trial and he did.

 

That primal fear that every white person in this country has deep inside of them that black people are coming to kill them.

 

That's a very sweeping statement. As a woman, I'm afraid a man will kill me. Any man. Margaret Atwood put it succinctly: "Men are afraid women will laugh at them. Women are afraid men will kill them." That primal fear is in too many white people, not all.

Edited April 6, 2016 by dubbel zout

[psychoticstate]

For me the puzzle is why people think there was not reasonable doubt in this case.  After Fuhrman pleads the 5th, that's pretty much it.  It's hard not to clearly see that if a major part of the defense strategy is that the police planted evidence to frame your suspect, and you have an officer heavily involved in the case basically admitting such, your defendant is going to walk, pretty much 100% of the time, no matter who your defendant is.  Why would any reasonable jury ignore that?

 

 

 

The only way I can explain it is this - - is it reasonable to assume that at least three detectives, who had not worked together previously, would decide in the early morning hours, without knowing the identity of one victim and therefore possibly not the motive for the murders, to frame the ex-husband of the identified victim?  A man of whom they had previously coddled and let domestic violence issues slide on?   Is it reasonable to assume that they managed to get this ex-husband's blood before he gave a sample to place at the crime scene?  Is it reasonable to assume these same detectives managed to gain access to his vehicle in order to plant blood and fiber evidence?  Is it reasonable to assume they would do this, all without knowing the exact whereabouts of the ex-husband and potential alibi he may have had?  Is it reasonable to assume they also managed to get people in the crime lab to go into this scheme by either planting DNA and hairs or fudging the results?  Is it reasonable to assume that all of these people were willing to jeopardize their careers, pensions and reputations in order to frame Simpson?

 

If there was no conspiracy on the lab's side, is it reasonable to assume that lax habits or genuine mistakes would make it more likely to match the defendant?  Is it reasonable to assume that these mistakes that may have destroyed evidence pointing to the "real killer" would then leave behind only evidence that implicated Simpson?   

[plotpointer]

Quick question here:

The last scene at the party when OJ interacted with the waiter he didn't know -- was that supposed to signify some larger point?  Was it showing how OJ would no longer be surrounded by close friends and societal elites, but rather, unknowns and suck-ups?  Or was it a subtle reference to Marcia Clark's earlier story about the waiter who raped her?  That Simpson is just like the waiter and every other guilty defendant who has gotten away with a crime?

[Jel]

Glad this series provided a little vindication for Chris Darden.  

[BananaRama]

I'd like to think in some small way, justice was served through this show. Justice through master class acting and incredible storytelling. And for a TV viewer, that's the sweetest justice of all.

I agree.

[psychoticstate]

That primal fear that every white person in this country has deep inside of them that black people are coming to kill them.

 

 

 

I agree with dubbel zout that this is a very broad and sweeping statement (and not necessarily true).  It's like saying that all black people hate white people.  I don't believe that.  I can honestly say that I'd be afraid a crazy person would kill me, regardless of race.  And statistically speaking, you are more likely to be victimized by someone of the same race.

[biakbiak]

name=]So are you saying if Fruit of Islam hadn't shown up, Cochran wouldn't have gotten death threats? That he got death

So are you saying if Fruit of Islam hadn't shown up, Cochran wouldn't have gotten death threats? That he got death threats because the FOI showed up?

No that is not remotely what I was suggesting. Someone stated that he had to hire the Fruit of Islam to protect him because he couldn't rely on the LAPD to protect him from death threats. My point was that in fact Cochran didn't feel threatened enough to hire them or ask for their assistance, they showed up and he knew what statement he was making taking their protection but he either wasn't concerned enough about the death threats to hire a security firm or hired one that was less conspicuous and went along either the theater of the FOI. Ito, Clark, Garcetti, Darden and others also received death threats.

Edited April 6, 2016 by biakbiak

[txhorns79]

So we have an LAPD that has been shown routinely framing minority suspects. We have a police detective who has to take the 5th when asked if he planted evidence in this case.  We have a defense team lawyer who is an expert on DNA, and who shows that Simpson's, Nicole's, and Goldman's blood have already been mixed together in the comparison vial. That a percentage of Simpson's blood taken for comparison was "missing". That some of the evidence miraculously turns up weeks after the murders, but not in the original photographs, that some of the evidence spent the night over at detective's houses, and that blood taken from Simpson, instead of being logged immediately and taken to the lab, was driven over to the crime scene instead.

 

What the LAPD may or may not have done in other matters has little relevance to this claim.  Further, there were hundreds of exhibits in this case, and months and and months worth of testimony.  I'm sure I could isolate prosecution witnesses and evidence and present a case that there really was no doubt as to who killed Ron and Nicole.  And that a defense expert presents testimony that undermines the prosecution's case is not particularly noteworthy.  That is what they are paid to do.  

 

Glad this series provided a little vindication for Chris Darden.

 

I was glad Darden and Clark got some vindication.  I had watched The Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt from last year, and Tina Fey was just brutal with them (even though the joke was very, very dated.)

Edited April 6, 2016 by txhorns79

[psychoticstate]

On a side note: am I the only one who wants to read one of Marcia Clarks books?

 

 

 

Chaos Theory, I just finished an audiobook of Marcia Clark's and thought it was very well done.  So much so that I ordered another.

 

I read her book on the criminal case when it was released and I thought it was good.

[Daisy]

I have to rewatch this episode. (I watched/kinda of slept) through it this morning... SO tired - but there are a lot of things in episode i had that were cut off. 

I know this is real. but I was so hoping that they would have found him guilty. Darden made me cry when he broke down and the Goldmans comforted him. 

[SoSueMe]

 

David Schwimmer was the surprise for me. I've long known Courtney B. Vance can act his ass off (I would love to have been a fly on the wall when he went home and talked to Angela Bassett about work when he was filming this - they're one of my favorite celeb couples), and Sarah Paulson too. Ross was my least favorite character on Friends and I've never thought much of Schwimmer as an actor. (I had an encounter with him when he was eating at a restaurant a few doors down from my old NYC building and he was very nice.) I think he's been directing a lot since Friends. When I heard he was in this I was like " ... Okay ..." but I thought he was excellent. Ditto Sterling K. Brown - that scene between him and Vance at the end gave me chills. (Darden was, and is, completely right about black people and the police. I fear cops.)

 

 

If anyone still sees David Schwimmer as Ross after seeing this we have nothing to talk about. He was awesome in this....awesome.

On a side note: am I the only one who wants to read one of Marcia Clarks books?

I agree on David Schwimmer.

 

This could be his big year, this new series sounds interesting and a little dark. And it's on AMC so that bodes well.

 

 http://variety.com/2016/tv/news/feed-the-beast-david-schwimmer-jim-sturgess-amc-1201686270/

[Bryce Lynch]

I had to laugh at that. I wonder how often that happens, attorneys turning on other attorneys like that.

I was holding my breath throughout the verdict rituals in the courtroom. This show did a superb job of building suspense for an outcome the audience already knew.

I think his focus these days is on directing, so it's more his choice not to be acting, not that he can't get roles.

That reinforced how amazing the casting, hair, and makeup was. There were some real doppelgängers in there.

Yeah, he was basically telling them it was okay to find Simpson not guilty, because there would be a bigger justice in that. That was really interesting to me.

That was Cochran's ultimate goal: He wanted to put the system on trial and he did.

That's a very sweeping statement. As a woman, I'm afraid a man will kill me. Any man. Margaret Atwood put it succinctly: "Men are afraid women will laugh at them. Women are afraid men will kill them." That primal fear is in too

many white people, not all.

When I said it might have worked out for good, I meant only because OJ displayed his violent temper again and got himself sentenced to 33 years in prison. If he was still out there searching golf courses for the "real killers", I would never say that.

[WordFreak]

Wow. So much to unpack after watching this. First off, I just want to say I think this was some of the best television I have seen in a while. I've already given shout-outs for the amazing acting, so let me just add my admiration for the writers as well. They did an excellent job of taking the major issues from this trial and presenting them in an intelligent, compelling way. Hopefully, Emmy pays attention.

 

I was about 16 when the verdict was originally read, and I remember it clearly. I was in my Italian class, and the teacher had obtained a TV for us to watch on, since she knew we wouldn't get any work done until we knew the decision. When the not guilty verdict was read, I remember being stunned, since even with my basic understanding of legal procedure, I knew a horrible mistake had been made. When I went to my next class, I remember some other students who were football fans yelling, "Don't squeeze the Juice!" celebrating the verdict. Watching it again on this show brought that feeling of disappointment and disillusionment I originally felt right back.

 

Some highlights from the episode:

 

-I thought Robert K's reaction was beautifully played, particularly the vomiting in the bathroom after the verdict, and his walking away from that bizarre party at the end

-The prosecution's press conference was powerful, especially when Darden broke down in tears and was embraced by the Goldmans. All of the aftermath with Clark and Darden's disappointment and sadness was excellent. You could really see how much this trial cost both of them on a personal level

- My heart broke all over again for the Goldmans. First of all, their son and brother was barely even mentioned in the trial, and then they didn't even get any justice. During the closing credits, when updates were given on all the key figures, I was outraged to see that in the civil trial, the Goldmans were supposed to be awarded $33 million, but only received about 500K. Talk about yet another slap in the face. 

 

Other things stood out for me too, but the above moments were the most powerful for me. I was very moved by the photos of Nicole and Ron that were shown at the end. It was a powerful reminder that the trial was supposed to be about them, but that fact was lost in the circus of a trial. I'm sad that they still have not received justice.

 

I will miss this show, but look forward to seeing what's in store for season 2.