S05.E03: High Sparrow

[WearyTraveler]

Roose also wanted him to stop torturing Jeyne in the books, but he didn't.  

 

Jeyne wasn't Sansa, though.  She was a girl far more traumatized than Sansa (in books and in show), and Roose knew she wouldn't run away.  The situation here is different.  Sansa came with Vale guards, some of whom I presume will stay with her, and she appears to have the servants' loyalty (The North Remembers). So, while he might attempt to hurt her, I don't think he will succeed.

 

And having Ramsay say "I won't hurt her" right after Littlefinger admits he knows nothing about Ramsay is blatant foreshadowing that he's going to hurt her.

 

 

 

 

Or some clever misdirection.  There was plenty of foreshadowing going on for Sansa taking revenge in a spectacular way a la Red Wedding too, given all the many times the script bothered to remind us of that event and the role the Boltons played, right down to LF mentioning it was Roose who stabbed Robb in the heart.

 

Right now, I can see it going either way, but I'm leaning toward Sansa being perfectly safe from Ramsay.

[WatchrTina]

The show suffered from a lack of Jaime and Bronn and also Bran.  Have we seen the last of Theon's sister?

[benteen]

It's interesting that having Roose interact with Littlefinger and reading his mail makes him a much more active player in the Game of Thrones.

 

Loved Marg's crack about Cersei's drinking.

[MrWhyt]

I hope you are right but that line about examining her to prove her virginity and Roose saying he "leaves that to the brothel master" gave me pause.

 

I suspect that was a dig at Littlefinger, who owns many brothels

[that one guy]

I like show Cersei so much more than book Cersei. On the show she's not a complete moron, she's just driven by fear and hate and envy, as well as genuine concern for her children. It's clear to me that she'd love to go back to the Rock as its ruler, just not as Kevan's powerless niece. Show Lancel is sort of awesome.

 

Having Brienne fight the real Hound instead of a fake was an improvement. I hold out hope that having Ramsey marry a real Stark will work out well as well. For the show as a whole, not for ramsey.

[Happy Harpy]

It gets better every week. I don't think there's one scene I didn't like.

 

For once, a villain got his comeuppance and Ned Stark was partly avenged. Hell, yeah! If they're setting up Ollie for being conflicted during a FTW, for example, imo they do it right since he looked positively murderous against Jon's detractors, this time.

Color me shocked, Stannis is much better when he doesn't demand and actually has to take people into consideration. Davos is still the best. Jon rules, in every meaning of the term.

 

Outstanding silent performance: A.Allen and M.Williams. Although everyone was top notch, those two are probably my performers of the week (with G.Christie who was flawless imo, as always).

I can't believe I feel for Theon, but I do, and I wanted to hug Arya. I think it's the first time she was so emotional/teary since her last confrontation with Gendry (she seemed more in a haze of shock and then numbed when she saw Robb at the RW imo). I wonder if Not-Jaqen stopped her attempt at skewering Mean Girl because she'd have failed, or because she'd have succeeded. Of course, I am all for the latter, LOL.

Expectedly, I don't like the religious brainwash part. Be strong, my baby.

 

I liked the parallel between the sisters, because Sansa was also back to the state of frightened little girl at first. But then I think that for the first time, she truly used her "lady mask" and was able to smile even though she wanted to scream -before, she couldn't manage more than non-committal imo. I was relieved by her reaction, because it shows she learned and she might be able to swim a little. 

 

I expected to be squicked out by Tommen/Margaery, but I actually enjoyed that scene. Tommen looked of age to me, and there was nothing graphic, thankfully. Oh, I can't believe I cheered for Margaery's manipulations but I did, because she played him like a violin re:Mommy Dearest.

I think I was right for once, and said manipulations only meant for her to influence Tommen and get Cersei a trip back to Casterly Rock. I also think that the new Queen is wayyy out of her depth. She can manipulate nice people like Tommen, or gullible people like Joffrey, or nice and gullible people like Sansa, but imo she has no idea of how to play it ruthless, like Cersei does. Maybe that's why there was no squick for me. She suddenly seemed so naïve to me, just like her husband, and not much older than he was.

 

Talking about out of one's depth, Littlefinger not having done his homework on Ramsay is unforgivable. To me, it only means that his plan is going to backfire.

I understood why Sansa stuck with him last week, but the devil you know could be wrong choice in the end. I don't want her to be victimized again.

It's such a relief that Brienne is so stubborn and true to her oaths because Sansa is going to need backup.

 

It's was a nice little pay-off to see Brienne embrace Pod as her squire/pupil. Very nice scene, that did more for Renly as a character in my eyes than what I actually saw of him.

 

And finally, yeah!  Sarcastic, funny, not-wallowing Tyrion was back! He still isn't at his best, but there was progress. Jorah! Looking forward to the new Odd Couple.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[apollonia666]

I don't think Sansa is going to get the Jeyne treatment. I think she's going to witness Ramsay's horrible side though and that she'll be in fear for a time that he'll hurt her, and will eventually either run for it or have him killed before the marriage is consummated.  

I think after her engagement to Joffrey, Sansa is all out of fucks to give to another psychopath fiance!

[Mr. Simpatico]

I really wish they'd gone with the book version and had Margaery and Tommen not in any type of sexual relationship. Not only does it just further reduce Margaery, it also turns this story into some sort of awful fratboy leerfest that would not get the same type of "oh yeah!" reaction if the ages were switched. 

 

I'm so bothered by the whole Sansa story I can't even think about what the ending will be. I just hope this ends in Littlefinger's death. 

 

I get the whole poignancy element if Ollie kills Jon, but I wish they could have included Satin somewhere in the show. Then again, knowing D&D, he'd probably just spend his time asking the various men of the Night's Watch for dick.

All three of these things. Someone help me here - how old is AgedUp!Tommen supposed to be on the show? Still far younger than Margery, no? And it just a few years ago (still in show time) he was dandled on Cersei's knee? I'm not sure why the show needed to go there - Margery's virginity (or lack of it) is one of the things Cersei uses against her. Now that weapon is taken away for no known reason?

 

I too worry about Sansa. Of course Ramsay will try to abuse her just like he did Jeyne in the books - he's a psychopath. The question is whether Roose will stop him. He really didn't do much beyond warning Ramsay about not abusing Fake!Arya in public in the books but here it is not only not a Fake Stark but a real one. And if Littlefinger sticks around I can't see him letting Ramsay do anything physical to Sansa. Although because of his guilt I can definitely see that being the one thing making Theon lose his servileness.

 

As for Ollie. Of course they are setting up him to be one of those who stab/kill Jon. I'm not even sure that's a question at this point.

 

A few other things that stuck out were:

Jonathan Pryce was so good. I felt the High Sparrow so much more likable (to begin with) than I ever did in the books.

Stannis got some good moments here. As did Davos. Maybe the closest we've come to Book!Stannis, the only King concerned with repairing the realm. And he's marching on Winterfell already! Will we see that by the end of the year?

Great acting by Maisie W. with Needle. For a minute I thought D&D would actually have her through it away (they've changed so much already) but no....

[Lady S.]

Two other thoughts:

Anyone else look around for DarkWillow and wonder if Warren was one of the flayed?

 

I thought of him, but tbh, I was a lot less bothered when that creep lost his skin. 

 

All I could think was 'What the hell, Lady Anne?' when Arya was getting smacked around by that woman in the House of Black and White. 

That's who she was! I saw Faye Marsay's name in the credits, but didn't remember her being in the ep at all.

[tennisgurl]

At least Sansa has practice having to deal with being engaged to a murderous sociopath! Silver lining? 

 

 

"Edd, fetch me a block."

I wanted that line SO bad! On of my favorites in the book, and one of my favorite Jon moments! 

 

I better at least get my Frye pies damn it!

Edited April 27, 2015 by tennisgurl

[Maximum Taco]

For some reason I don't think Ramsay is going to try and hurt Sansa.

 

My thoughts definitely have Myranda going after Sansa, and then Ramsay mercilessly butchering her (or possibly hunting her for sport) for presuming to mess with his betrothed.

 

This isn't to even say Ramsay cares about Sansa at all, but moreso that she is his to either torment or not torment as he chooses, and Myranda needs to keep her hands off.

 

On the plus side hopefully that'll spare Sansa the pain (that rhymes with Jeyne)

Edited April 27, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[WearyTraveler]

I'm not sure why the show needed to go there - Margery's virginity (or lack of it) is one of the things Cersei uses against her. Now that weapon is taken away for no known reason?

 

Maybe the show knows something we don't?  Many people theorize that Margaery Tyrell will be found guilty during her trials because Cersei, although punished harshly, was not sentenced to death.  They believe that one of the Queens could be spared but not two, ergo, Margaery must die in the books.  But maybe D&D know that she doesn't and so they will not even go down that road.  

 

Although because of his guilt I can definitely see that being the one thing making Theon lose his servileness.

 

 

I think Theon will try to warn Sansa, eventually, and she will refuse him.  He will then try to show her how awful Ramsay can be by having her spy on Ramsay punishing Myranda for getting out of line (her reaction to Sansa was a huge anvil, IMO, that she will complain and act out, prompting Ramsay to punish her).  This will then lead to Sansa enlisting Theon in whatever her revenge plans are.  She must have some revenge plan, given her conversation with LF at Moat Cailin, and her subsequent decision to go to Winterfell, to be engaged to Ramsay, no less.

 

As for Ollie. Of course they are setting up him to be one of those who stab/kill Jon. I'm not even sure that's a question at this point.

 

 

I don't think we are theorizing that he will be one of the ones to stab Jon, we're saying he will take the Bowen Marsh role during that event.  If you recall, Bowen was the first one to stab Jon saying "For the Watch" while he stabbed him and crying.  That's different from being one of those who stab Jon.  It's being the one in the lead and it was a pretty sad/powerful moment in the books.

[Dev F]

I wanted that line SO bad! On of my favorites in the book, and one of my favorite Jon moments! Why would they cut that? I`m no purest, but there was no reason to change that!

 

Except that the scene took place indoors as Jon made the initial decision to execute Slynt, not outside as he changed his mind about how to execute him, so the context is completely different and renders the original phrasing confusing -- would viewers immediately understand that the block was to kill him? Plus, Jon doesn't seem to carry Longclaw around with him everywhere (for the convenience of the actor, I'd imagine), so fetching his sword is more crucial to the execution than fetching the block. And since the focus is the sword, it would be in the care of his steward, who is Ollie, not Edd. All of which is to say, it seemed like a logical adjustment to me.

[fantique]

UGH...! This episode was so damn good!!!!!!!!!

First of all, the directing and editing was amazing. Everything flowed so well. 

Whoever directed this episode knows how to get a great performance out of the actors. Everyone was like 200% and that's something on this show. The ladies in particular had amazingly layered performances. Cersei vs Marg was freaking awesome. Brienne breaking down a little and letting Pod in was great. And the Stark ladies just brought it home. Sophie with her little breakdown when hearing of the plan and then the shift from "I want to slit your throat" to "Hi! I'm just a bubbly heiress here! :D" in front of Roose was amazing. And Maisie broke my heart during that needle scene. It's been so long since we saw Arya actually vulnerable and allowing to have emotions. 

 

On to the plot. Nothing felt superfluous, everything was either answering a question or giving hints as to how things are going to play out.

I liked seeing the inside of the HoBaW, the blind girl was great, they translated perfectly that "did this bitch just slap me?" feel when she first started training with the Waif.

KL, I will try to block out the creepiness of the consummation meeting modern standards of statutory rape. How old is he? At least Marg knows how to play Tommen, use his sweetness to make him "help" his distressed mother. To transparent though, it was obviously not going to work, unless it was just to make sure Cersei realises Tommen is starting to want her gone. Interesting how Cersei looked almost panicked and out of her depth when confronting Marg. Her threats were empty then but she was obviously committing this to memory for when she gets revenge? Will also use mind bleach to forget that creepy HS with his 7 fetish. Loved that small council scene, lol. Pycelle and Cersei's looks to him were priceless. Loving how Cersei is literally handing the gun with which she will be shot to the HSparrow. Lena was totally showing Cersei's plan there. Can not wait!

 

The North, I am worried... The saving grace is that Sansa is acknowledged as Sansa and she is the genuine article. Because of that, Roose and Ramsay will be way more careful. In the books, there is this feeling that most people suspect Jeyne is a fake and they're only there to figure out how to take the Boltons+Freys down. Also, the lady saying "The North Remembers" made me feel confident in her having people, in the castle, who are there to avenge her family and protect her, which Jeyne did not have. I liked that, weirdly enough, Theon being in on the Boltons' strategies reminds me of Arya listening in on conversations in Book 2. 

 

The Wall, I am enjoying Stannis' one liners, "whoever said that doesn't have many enemies" lol. I am weirdly annoyed at Davos' presence... I feel like I was really enjoying Stannis at the Wall because a lot of the discussion was directly between him and Jon and here it feels like the script has a quota of wisdom drops each for Davos and Stannis. Also, there are white walkers coming, yes the freaking Wall needs to be manned. This is so weird because I was looking forward to their interactions so much. As for Jon as LC, I am glad he's taking steps to be inclusive and the beheading was good. It is getting clearer and clearer that little Olly is going to be trouble.

 

Volantis, I liked seeing a new place. Interesting that they are reintroducing a hero being prophesied by the Red God faith, only Mel mentioned it when speaking of Stannis in season 2. Tyrion having erectile dysfunction instead of raping a poor unsuspecting servant/slave is an improvement. The less said about Jorah hanging in a brothel with a fake Dany, the better. No Comment. It's actually pretty stupid here for Jorah to kidnap Tyrion when he's going to Dany anyway... That's going to suck for him and make him look really stupid.

 

All in all, pretty good.

[SFoster21]

Disappointed that we haven't got Jaime to Dorne yet. Since we're off book, anything can happen! Jaime might hook up with Quentyn's old squeeze!

[DropTheSoap]

Relative to the descriptions in the books, that seemed like a pretty quick trip to the north for LF and Sansa. I am hoping that things go better for her than they did for Jeyne.

 

I agree with the comment about the whole thing being in the dark. Well, maybe just half of it was in the dark. Still.

[Andromeda]

I'm interested to see what happens with the Sansa storyline in a way I haven't been for awhile. I highly doubt she'll be treated like Jayne was. That would be a bridge too far, even for this show. I wonder if this will play out as a way to show how Sansa has changed from when Joffry treated her poorly. She's grown and hardened and she's not going to take it anymore. This could be really cathartic for everyone, with the Boltons paying the price.

[Jamoche]

Brienne again mentioned the shadow had Stannis's face. I can't help but think that this is a heavily telegraphed storyline, and Brienne will come up against Stannis.

I don't trust anything that's telegraphed - the book and show show both love to yank the rug out from under us. (Alas, Oberyn...)

[Helena Dax]

I’m not ready to see Sansa marrying Ramsay and suffering Jeyne’s fate. Littlefinger would protect her but I’m guessing he’s going to go to King’s Landing. And Brienne’s near, but not near enough.  Maybe Theon? I don’t know, but please, show, don’t  go there with Sansa.

 

In   the books I wasn’t very fond of this part of Arya’s plot, but I liked those scenes in the show.

 

Margaery and Tommen have done it! I wonder if this will change things. As she said, she could get pregnant. And Cersei won’t be able to accuse her of not being a virgin anymore.  And the conversation between the Queens? OMG! Margaery knows how to fight dirty! But I wonder why Cersei went to talk to her, because I’d say she wasn’t looking for a fight this time. I think she was trying to be friendly with Margaery because she had realized Tommen was always going to choose her wife over her mother.  Of course, Margaery wasn’t having any of that.

 

One of my favourite parts of the book was Janos Slynt’s death.  It isn’t just because I hate him (which I do);   I think there’s something fascinating and scary in that moment of terror when a character realizes he’s made a huge mistake and he’s going to pay with his life. Those moments when you would give anything to go back in time and change what you did. 

 

No wonder Brienne fell in love with Renly.

 

The High Sparrow looks like a nice guy, which proves Tyrion right when he said “never trust looks”.

 

Ser Jorah! I guess Tyrion’s going to meet Daenerys one way or another, heh.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Helena Dax

[FurryFury]

I guess Tyrion’s going to meet Daenerys one way or another, heh.

 

In season 6, I guess. I still remember being so excited after book 3 to see Tyrion and Dany and then suffering from his endless travels in ADWD because I really, really wanted for Dany's storyline to finally gain some momentum, and then... Nope. I really hope they'll change this stuff. At the very least they're obviously making Tyrion more sympathetic than the "Where do whores go?" book version whom I can't stand at this point.

 

As for Sansa/Ramsey - first I was furious because I considered it very out of character for LF, but then I realized it's just a part of his scheme so he's probably reasonably sure nothing too bad will happen to Sansa. And as fascinated with rape as the show is (I'll never get over the first Dany/Drogo sex), even D&D wouldn't give Sansa Jeyne's fate. 

 

I wonder if we'll get the battle for Winterfell in episode 9 this year.

Edited April 27, 2015 by FurryFury

[penelope79]

When Jorge Bergoglio became Pope Francis, the first thing I thought was: "He totally looks like Jonathan Pryce." It's funny that Jonathan Pryce's role is probably the closest to Pope Francis in GoT universe! :)

[Advance35]

Maybe the show knows something we don't?  Many people theorize that Margaery Tyrell will be found guilty during her trials because Cersei, although punished harshly, was not sentenced to death.  They believe that one of the Queens could be spared but not two, ergo, Margaery must die in the books.  But maybe D&D know that she doesn't and so they will not even go down that road.

 

This is what makes me  ok with the show changes.  The fact that they know where all these characters are ultimately going.   If Margaery does end up getting out of the mess Cersei got her in to, what is the point of the Queen Trials from a television perspective.   If Jaimie and Brienne are not going to suffer consequences from Lady Stoneheart, why waste the time.  

 

If Sansa ends up marrying Ramsay, than I think Book!Sansa will end up marrying Harry.   Probably with the same level of happiness.  I'll definitely be interested in how Cersei and Margaery's stories shape up at the end of the season since the Tommen/Margaery marriage has been consemated. 

[Haleth]

I think this'll lead to a more cunning Sansa which is nice as I'm sick of her just otherwise bouncing from monster to monster.  If this is being set up as her getting revenge, I'm all for it.

 

I think it will happen in the show that she will replace Manderly and have her guards and maybe the old Winterfell staff quietly do away with Boltons and Freys.  Maybe Theon will do her bidding?  And I'm thinking Brienne will replace Mance as the person sent to rescue her by Jon. I really, really hope they don't go there with Ramsey or Miranda harming Sansa in any way, not physically anyway.  I don't imagine she'll be treated well but she's survived that before.

 

Margery's virginity (or lack of it) is one of the things Cersei uses against her. Now that weapon is taken away for no known reason?

 

Yeah, the surprise of having the kids consummate their marriage made me wonder how Cersei was going to accuse Marg of infidelity.  Then I thought maybe

it won't be Marg that is imprisoned, it will be Loras, which will hurt Marg even more.

 I have no idea if this will happen, but thought I should spoiler it anyway.  It was sort of hinted at last week.

 

Another mention of greyscale.  Hmm.

[CherryMalotte]

That's who she was! I saw Faye Marsay's name in the credits, but didn't remember her being in the ep at all.

 

Not long ago I mentioned her to my movie group, she is in the movie Pride and I enjoyed her performance.  I think she's great and was really happy to see her show up as The Waif.  While I'm sure D&D have a big say on the major roles being cast, major kudos to their casting team.  

 

I appreciate the responses to my Sansa musings - I suppose that rather than fuss about with Jeyne they decided to just cut to the chase and stick Sansa in place.  I was a wee bit surprised because I thought LF would want Sansa to himself, and I am still sure she will play a part of whatever bigger picture he's got going on.           

[nksarmi]

The lingering shot of the line-up of Ramsay's women, with Myranda looking none too pleased at Sansa's arrival, suggests it's not just Ramsay that Sansa needs to beware...Myranda is herself one scary psycho. Sansa's decision to smile and be gracious to Ramsay made me hope that she will not be a victim...but she is up against a man even worse than Joffrey.

Loved Jon at the Wall, and his interplay with Stannis...and was so happy he executed that miserable Slynt. Even Thorne gave up his homie. 

That's where I think they are going to go with it.  Myranda's psycho ass is the one who is going to attack Sansa - not Ramsey. 

[mac123x]

Good episode, and no scenes in Meereen earn this episode a +1 to it's final score!  Seeing Jorah again would have been a nice surprise if they hadn't included him in the Previously On scenes and the opening titles.  I haven't looked at the Unsullied thread yet, but I'm betting most of them figured out Jorah didn't mean Cercei when he said "I'm taking you to the Queen".

 

I'm intrigued by how they've changed the High Sparrow.  In the books, he's trying to reform the church from inside (reminded me of Saint Anselm or one of the reformer-popes).  Show!Sparrow is attacking the corrupt church from the outside (in a mild pleasant selfless way... so far).  Cercei's going to regret getting into bed with him (so to speak), but she's not coming off nearly as stupid and short-sighted as she does in the books.

 

I don't think Ramsey is going to torture Sansa like he did Jeyne in the books.  Book!Ramsey is all-mean, all the time.  Show!Ramsey is more subtle, and able to show kindness, both real (greeting Fat Walda as "mother") and manipulative (bathing Reek).  I agree with some of the previous posts that Myranda is more likely to hurt Sansa.  I'm guessing Myranda will do something, Ramsey will catch her, and torture her in front of Sansa to prove his love.  I just retched a little.

 

Seeing Arya in a dress was weird.  I thought she was really good in the scene where she rid herself of worldly possessions, but I was a little distracted by her nice hair cut.  I guess A Man took her to A Greatclips on the way to HBW.

 

Brienne telling Pod about the ball her father had for her was a nice character moment.  Try as they might, though, they'll never be able to make Gwendolynne Christie look ugly. 

 

I loved loved loved the scene between Margaery and Cercei, mainly because I could not read Cercei at all.  In the books, she takes every comment from Marge as an insult, even ones that weren't intended as such.  Here, she didn't even flinch at the obvious jibes (drinking in the morning, "Queen Mother or Dowager Queen?")  D&D are making Show!Cercei much smarter and sympathetic, and I like that change.  In the books, she's the only one I found even more unlikeable once we started getting her PoV chapters.

[nksarmi]

Ok so I need a refresher on something else as well lol...

 

Someone mentioned that Cercei in the books was not sentenced to death for her crimes. She was accused of infidelity by Lancel right?  Does he confess involvement in Robert's murder as well?  I can't recall.  Also, do they even entertain the accusations of incest that would invalidate Tommen's claim the throne?  I just can't remember. When the books ended, I thought she was still awaiting a trial by combat.  At least, I remember that Jamie wouldn't come to her and she wanted to use FrankenMountain to defend her.  But they never got around to that fight did they?

 

In regards to Margeary - I was shocked they consummated the marriage and I do think that takes a lot away from whatever Cercei could accuse her with. Plus, we haven't seen Margeary hang around with anyone but women and her brother on the show.  At least in the books, Cercei tried to set Margeary up before she made the accusation.  Of course, we haven't seen Cercei spread her legs as much either, but I think Lancel's confession will be enough to put her on trial.

[snowblossom2]

I don't know how I feel about the Sansa/Bolton storyline, but I do have to say I appreciated the walk of shame by the high septa. I think it makes Ceresi's later walk of shame less misogynistic. It also highlights Ceresi's utter stupidity that she would align with a group that forces the high septa to do a walk of shame because he was at a brothel but Ceresi feels protected for some reason and is sure that her own misdeeds (I don't think that in the show she's fucking everyone) - including the twincest, but also, hello - Lancel is a sparrow and of course, Lancel will have confessed his intimate relationship with the Queen, while she was still married.

[jcin617]

sending Sansa to the north does accomplish that... but the politics of it just don't make a whole lot of sense.

To me, it makes perfect sense politics-wise, as Roose pointed out.  They themselves can't hold the North's loyalty and the Lannisters are coming apart.   Marrying Ramsey and Sansa puts a Stark in Winterfell under the control of the Boltons with little to fear that the Lannisters are going to do anything about it.  As LF sort of pointed out, the only person who can (in theory) order the Lannister armies north is Tommen, and since Margaery cares for Sansa; she'd probably easily get Tommen on her side if it came to that.  (Especially if it knocks Cersei down a peg.)

 

I'm not as concerned about the Sansa storyline as some;  in fact I think it makes a lot more practical sense for a TV show.  Putting aside the fact that LF would blow his top if anything happened to Sansa, you also have Brienne and Stannis on the march to Winterfell, Theon already keeping a wary eye on Sansa and even the housekeeper's  "the north remembers"; I think Sansa is going to come out of this in charge of Winterfell.

Edited April 27, 2015 by jcin617

[Constantinople]

Shouldn't Sansa have already noticed that she and LF were heading north long before they reached Moat Cailin?

[Bannon]

Not long ago I mentioned her to my movie group, she is in the movie Pride and I enjoyed her performance.  I think she's great and was really happy to see her show up as The Waif.  While I'm sure D&D have a big say on the major roles being cast, major kudos to their casting team.  

 

I appreciate the responses to my Sansa musings - I suppose that rather than fuss about with Jeyne they decided to just cut to the chase and stick Sansa in place.  I was a wee bit surprised because I thought LF would want Sansa to himself, and I am still sure she will play a part of whatever bigger picture he's got going on.           

I think it may the case that LF, contra what he said to Sadist Bolton, is actually well aware of what Ramsey is, and is going to use that quality to eventually attack the legitimacy of the Warden of the North. He knows that Roose can't allow his bastard to kill Sansa or to seriously harm her, but that Ramsey eventually will be Ramsey, and if LF can intercede on Sansa's behalf, LF becomes a hero to the population of the north, Roose is weakened, and, well, maybe the sadist gets what's coming to him. The man who made Roose Warden is dead, his successor is weak, and LF is always trying to climb the ladder. It wouldn't be the first time LF pretended to agree to an alliance, while looking to gut the supposed alliance partner.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Bannon

[Maximum Taco]

Shouldn't Sansa have already noticed that she and LF were heading north long before they reached Moat Cailin?

 

Maybe she fell asleep as they were going West and didn't notice until they were at Moat Cailin? It's hard to tell where youu are going from inside the carriage, and Sansa probably isn't the greatest navigator.

 

My question is "why they didn't just sail from Runestone?" It's a coastal fortress (literally just across the peninsula from Gulltown) and LF could say they're going to the Fingers and just keep going to the North.

 

There's a lot of problems if you think too much.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[proserpina65]

Okay, so I totally didn't expect the Margaery/Tommen storyline to go there.  No wonder they recast that role with an older actor.  Still kind of icky, though.  But what sort of treason will Cersei accuse Margaery of since the "she's not a virgin" card is off the table?  Interested to see how that plays out.

 

Damn, Jon Snow is taking charge at the Wall.  You go, Jon!

 

Oh man, Sansa, I think you'd be better off married to Joffrey.  Did not expect THAT to happen.  Do like having Roose Bolton back on my tv, though; I love that actor's voice.

 

Cersei is treading in very dangerous waters - can't wait to see this come back to bite her in her very naked ass.

 

Arya has a storyline that doesn't involve wandering aimlessly!  Yay!

 

As long as Tyrion's storyline doesn't involve a never-ending boat trip followed by an overly involved war between Yunkai and Meeren, I maybe can get behind this newest development.  Hey, it gets Iain Glen back on my tv, so that's good.

 

Best of all: no Dany this week.

[screamin]

I was really put off by Sansa's meekness in just going along with LF putting her back into essentially the same position she was in in King's Landing - the position of valued marriageable prisoner to an avowed enemy of her family, who will completely distrust her, consider her potentially treacherous and therefore allow her no more freedom than the Lannisters did in KL. I ESPECIALLY am put off that she went along with LF based solely on his Underpants Gnome-level plan for vengeance, which by his own description appears to go like this:

 

1) Marry you to the son of Roose Bolton, the man who killed your family and will distrust you and keep you as much a valued prisoner as the Lannisters ever did.

2) ????

3) Vengeance!

 

I'm disappointed that they wrote Sansa just going along with this shit, getting back on her horse in silent obedience instead of at least demanding more details of what his plan requires of her before she agrees to it. It seems to me that they just want to put her back in the position of spineless damsel in distress again, needing rescue by Theon and Brienne from a situation she wouldn't be in if she hadn't meekly gone along with LF's stupid plan.

 

I'm also disappointed in the stupidity of LF's plan as depicted here. That handful of knights he brought are not going to be able to keep control if Roose decides at any moment he wants to change the terms of the deal to anything more advantageous, or if Roose gets distracted and Ramsey acts out.

[Constantinople]

Maybe she fell asleep as they were going West and didn't notice until they were at Moat Cailin? It's hard to tell where youu are going from inside the carriage, and Sansa probably isn't the greatest navigator.

Sansa's not always in the carriage. She was on her horse when she saw Moat Cailin.

And while Sansa may not be much of a navigator, nor was she ever much of an outdoorsy person, I suspect she knows the Sun rises in the East and sets in the West. So if she sees the Sun rising to her right and setting to her left, she'd have some idea she was heading North.

 

My question is "why they didn't just sail from Runestone?" It's a coastal fortress (literally just across the peninsula from Gulltown) and LF could say they're going to the Fingers and just keep going to the North.

I too had wondered before why they hadn't sailed, but of course, if they had, then they wouldn't have bumped into Brienne & Pod

But while one can make arguments about which means of travel is better in terms of speed, safety, discretion, there seems less room for argument about not knowing the direction in which you're headed.

 

There's a lot of problems if you think too much.

Yeah, but this was just really stood out, at least to me.

[Bannon]

In the books, does Sansa ever become aware of the role LF played in getting Ned executed? It is quite interesting to me that Show!LF has been able to conceal that from Show!Sansa, and it really opens the playing field, or make the ladder easier to climb, for LF, in that he can much more easily use the daughter of  the Hand of the King, that LF helped get executed, to, in turn, get over on the noble who took over Winterfell after the decimation of the Starks. 

 

Now, if Sansa ever becomes aware of LF's role in getting her father beheaded (think about how the image of Ned's head impaled on a stake must be imprinted on her memory), and Sansa continues to get better at deadly politics, how she puts forth a false, yet different, front to both the Bolton's and LF, while endeavoring to get the throats slit that she thinks need slittin', could be a rich story arc.

[Matt K]

 I was a wee bit surprised because I thought LF would want Sansa to himself, and I am still sure she will play a part of whatever bigger picture he's got going on.           

My read of it was LF still wants Sansa but he wants a more savvy Sansa and is setting her up here to mold her into a schemer.  But who knows, hopefully Sansa's role here will be clear by the season's end.

[whirlingdervish]

I hate the idea of Sansa and Ramsay together, but I love this plotline. I'm looking forward to seeing what happens.  At least in the short term, we know Ramsay won't dare to harm a hair on Sansa's head...assuming he actually gets to marry Sansa in the first place. A few things that make me think it's not going to be another round of Sansa playing Torture and Humiliation Barbie: 

 

1. Roose Bolton knows that the Boltons are really unpopular right now, and that the last thing he needs is for Sansa to become Lyanna Stark 2.0 in the eyes of the North. He laid it out for Ramsay at the table, and, as we've seen, the North is watching and the North remembers. 

 

2. Littlefinger's comment that he doesn't really know anything about Ramsay, tells me that he's going to be watching, and that he's going to be filling in those gaps pretty shortly.  Even setting aside his fixation on Sansa at the moment, we know that Littlefinger is about what's best for Littlefinger, and his plans rely on keeping Sansa alive and on his side. Without knowing what a sadist Ramsay is (which right now, he doesn't), on paper this is a brilliant move that puts Sansa out of the reach of the Lannisters and solidifies his hold on the north. Plus at the moment he's still enjoying Sansa being "his" in some way, and he's getting a kick out of schooling her in the manipulative arts.

 

3. The only thing Ramsay craves more than causing pain is the respect and approval of his father (and being a legit Bolton). His father has made it clear what Ramsay needs to do to make that happen.  Plus, marrying a true lady like Sansa  is something he could never have hoped to aspire to before.  I wouldn't be surprised if Ramsay put Sansa on a pedestal, at least for a while.  Of course, this depends on Ramsay keeping it together--I think he's going to try to keep it together, but then again, that's not one of the top ten skills of your average psychopath. 

 

So, I'm curious to see where this goes.  Again, I hate the idea of Sansa in the hands of the Boltons, BUT the show's done a great job of setting the pieces in motion and raising the stakes, and spelling out what everyone has at stake in this.  I'm also intrigued that this time it's all being engineered by a master manipulator who needs Sansa in one piece...which must be a nice bit of novelty for Sansa! 

Edited April 27, 2015 by whirlingdervish

[Lady S.]

I'm torn because I want Ramsay to die, but I take Roose a lot more seriously than I take tv Littlefinger so I think I'd be disappointed if he was taken down by a zany Baelish scheme. Right now he firmly has the advantage. This isn't an alliance between the North and the Vale, Lord Royce has control of the Vale's titular ruler and I don't see why he would keep dancing on Littlefinger's strings once he learns he was lied to. Littlefinger only brings "a bunch" of knights to the table, and surely Roose already has 5x as many men from the Dreadfort. If/when Baelish answers Cersei's summons back to KL, Sansa is on her own. She's a better liar now, but Ramsay was always a great one, and her outmaneuvering Ramsay with no knowledge about him is even more far-fetched to me than Littlefinger outfoxing Roose. The only way this works out for her is with a lot of help unconnected with Littlefinger, because the plan he got her to agree to is not even really a plan. With no explanation whatsoever of how she can avenge her family, she is still very much a pawn.

[larapu2000]

Between Arya not giving up Needle, Sansa returning to Winterfell, and Jon carrying out an execution Ned-style, I got teary eyed more than a few times at the Stark awesomeness this episode.  

 

I like the departure from the books with Sansa at Winterfell.  I always felt like that particular storyline just made shit seem even more and more convoluted and neverending in the books.  There are so many disparate storylines that it's nice to get interaction between a few.  If the point of Theon saving Fake Arya in the books is simply redemption, he can get that with helping Sansa.  If the point of having Stannis fight for Winterfell was to put a Stark back in charge, then we're almost there.  

 

Joffrey dying on the show was super satisfying.  I have very, very high hopes that Ramsey's death will be just as delicious.

[Hecate7]

A change I do like, Cersei seems to be trying to set up the Sparrows as her shock troops to maintain power. Unlike the books where it's basically Cersei lets a militant religious group arm itself because she's a moron. It's fits Show!Cersei who always comes off as a craftier character than her book counterpart. 

 

But that is exactly what Book!Cersei thought she was doing when she armed the Faith Militant--trying to set them up as her shock troops. What she didn't understand, is that by definition the Faith Militant doesn't answer to her, and that she is in fact as subject to their power as anybody else.

[jeansheridan]

Varys as worried mother-hen will always delight me. 

 

I love the streamlining of the plots.  I love that Brienne is basically filling in for Theon's sister (can't recall her name in book or show).  Although I hate that Sansa is in danger again from yet another psycho fiance, I don't think the show will just replay the victim card.  If she can survive Joffrey, she can survive Bolton.  That said, I suspect she's gonna be terrorized at least once, in particular by Ramsey's lady-love.  But Sansa has faced down crazy Lysa and Cersei.  She's got some skills now.

 

And I could watch the Roose/Littlefinger show all night.  Basically give me a show with scenes of Brienne/Pod, Jaime/Bronn, Roose/LF, and Varys/Tyrion and I'm very happy.  I don't even need action scenes.  Or dragons.

 

By the way, I find the dragons so very dull.  I know they're expensive to create, but the show just doesn't really use them for much other two seasons ago when they took out a city for Dany.  Plus I still resent how little research Dany does about them.  She's got these great potential weapons and she never studies them.  Like EVER.  Drives me batty in the books and on the show. 

 

I'm surprised there's been squikiness about Tommen and Maergery.   Apparently the actor is 18 but even if the character is just 16, don't 16 year olds have sex?  I know he's VERY young in the books, but clearly he's been aged up.  And I suspect Maegery is probably one of the best teachers around.  She's kind and patient and quite honestly seems fun.  Even if she's also trying to manipulate him, she at least seems to like him.  What's good for Tommen is good for her so she wants the best for him.  She was kind to Renley too.  She tried to be kind to Joffrey before realizing he was dangerous. 

 

But it was stupid to poke at Cersei.  Very, very stupid.  I'm a bit surprised she did that quite honestly.  She seems smarter usually. 

 

And I love Cersei talking to the Sparrow.  This is my favorite kind of Cersei.  Taking a measure of a man.  It reminded me of how she was with Ned.  She knew she couldn't seduce Ned, so she bartered with him as his equal.  And Ned gave her the courtesey of treating her with respect.  The Sparrow did that as well.  Jonathan Pryce is so much more disarming than the book version of the character.  I had a much more fanatical take of him.  I sort of want to see some of the Septas now too.  Those evil Septas.  I truly felt for Cersei during her walk of shame.  I'm hoping the show allows her more fight.  She just collapses in the book.  I want her to be tougher and braver.  A broken Cersei is no fun to hate.

[Dev F]

I'm surprised there's been squikiness about Tommen and Maergery.   Apparently the actor is 18 but even if the character is just 16, don't 16 year olds have sex?  I know he's VERY young in the books, but clearly he's been aged up.

 

My assumption was that he was younger than that -- maybe thirteen or fourteen? -- so it did seem kinda squicky by our standards, though probably not by the standards of Westeros.

[Tryangle]

1) LF said that Sansa and Tyrion had not consummated their marriage and that "by the law of the land" they are not married at all because of this, he even asks Roose to have her checked, if he wants.  To which Roose replies he cares more about her name than her virtue. So the show is going with No Consummation = never married.

 

As Walder Frey would say, "a sword needs a sheath and a wedding needs a bedding!" Icky perhaps, but definitely the way they're rolling with it in TV Westeros.

 

Tommen on show likely couldn't be older than 14; based on that, one could assume his 'eagerness' was appropriate for the average 14-year old boy who's first experiencing sex.

[Skeeter22]

I'm extremely ambivalent about Sansa's new plot, but I have some hope that it will improve the northern storyline considerably. The writers obviously love Theon, and I'm looking forward to him interacting with Sansa. Having Sansa in the same location as the Boltons and Theon means we should finally get more on the fallout from the Red Wedding. It's been so long since we had any indication that the Starks still have supporters. The old woman telling Sansa "The North remembers" gave me the idea that they won't go full Jeyne with Sansa and it linked her arc to Jon and Arya.

[Maximum Taco]

But that is exactly what Book!Cersei thought she was doing when she armed the Faith Militant--trying to set them up as her shock troops. What she didn't understand, is that by definition the Faith Militant doesn't answer to her, and that she is in fact as subject to their power as anybody else.

 

Not really

 

In the books the High Sparrow is not elected by the Most Devout (the Seven's College of Cardinals that is usually in the crown's pocket) but is put into power when the Sparrows fight their way into the Sept of Baelor and threaten to kill the Most Devout if they do not select the High Sparrow.

 

Book!Cersei arms the faith militant so the High Sparrow will forgive the crown the one million dragons the faith is owed. And also so the High Sparrow will not pry too deeply into issues of Tommen's legitimacy and just annoint him as the King.

 

She never really considers the Warrior's Sons as her own militia, she just figures there is no harm in arming the faith because all they'll do is protect the faithful, and at the moment Stannis is following a false god. She does try to manipulate the faith militant, but this is no different then trying to manipulate anybody. She never issues actual orders to them though.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[Dewey Decimate]

Roose Bolton: sexiest voice in Westeros. Nevertheless, I want to see him dead.

 

Everything in Winterfell is so sadly gray and black. I know Winter Is Coming, but is it too much to ask to have a tiny addendum at the very end of the series that shows some hint of spring in Winterfell? Would warm my heart.

 

Stark girls made me tear up. Arya's inability to part with Needle, and "the North remembers." Dare I ask about Bran and Rickon?

 

Finally Brianne admits she snaps at Pod. Great backstory reveal.

 

Tyrion's temper tantrum in the wheelhouse followed by his asshole-ish commentary while perched in a forum for all to see - straw that broke the camel's back. He's possibly my favorite PoV in the books, but gods damnit if he hasn't finally pissed me off. Yeah, sucks to be accused of Joff's death, but then you go and kill your dad and simultaneously betray your brother? At this point, I don't think I care if he gets grayscale (heavily foreshadowed lately). There are so many other compelling characters, and we've lost big ones before.

 

Naked musical chairs... yawn. They have chicks walk directly into camera-view with nipples and poonanny on display, but then the High Septon's junk is conveniently blocked out? Fuck you, show. I really have no salacious desire to see that guy's ding-a-ling, but it's SO rampantly sexist. Sick of it.

 

Nonetheless, I'm loving this season. Don't care that it veers from the books; it's like getting two fantastic sources of entertainment for the price of one! I paused once while watching this ep and was shocked at how much time was left - like, how did they pack so much good stuff in?! I have faith that I will relish whatever comes to be. I remember when reading the books a few years ago, I borrowed the hardcovers from the library. (Silly me, figuring "you have too many books; are you really going to wanna re-read? I've since bought all.) The second book's cover featured a picture of Melisandre and Stannis' court. I remember feeling so very wary, thinking "who the hell is this red-headed chick? I don't want new characters, I want more of the ones I know!" How quickly I found that I still enjoyed all the stories. Likewise, I expect to savor every episode and enjoy this crazy ride.

[MarquisDeCarabas]

The weirwood face. As in, the face on the weirwood trees that represents the Old Gods.

 

 

She mentioned the Stranger, the Drowned God, and the weirwood face. I don't think she mentioned the Lord of Light, although its burning heart is definitely one of the effigies we see.

D'oh that's what I get for not having CC on.

 

I don't think you cast Rila Fukushima for a one and done.  I mean I could be wrong, but I'm fairly certain she'll show up again.  I'm just not sure what context.

 

Re:  Maergery's over playing her hand.  I think she's been made over confident by Tywin's death, thinking that Cersei doesn't really have any power.  Because Maergery and the Tyrell women seem to wield power solely by manipulating the men around them they think Cersei's only power is whatever influence she can hold on her son.  Cersei can and has used that type of power, but she also tries to wield power directly as she can.  I'm reminded of her first season encounter with Littlefinger where he tries to control her saying knowledge is power she she nearly has her guards kill him, responding power is power.

 

I'm not saying Cersei reaching out to the High Sparrow will pay off because we know it won't, but Maegery has seriously underestimated just how far Cersei will go.

Edited April 27, 2015 by MarquisDeCarabas

[Avaleigh]

Roose Bolton: sexiest voice in Westeros. Nevertheless, I want to see him dead.

 

Without Tywin around to be my favorite villain, I'm even more appreciative of the character of Roose. And yes, the voice. People have talked about Alan Rickman's voice for years but I'll take Michael McElhatton and Charles Dance's voices any day of the week.  

Edited April 28, 2015 by SilverStormm

[wrestlesflamingos]

Stannis is basically a traveling mercenary at this point. I don't understand the point of his character other than deus ex machina.