S04.E04: Chapter Four: Dear Billy

[paulvdb]

Quote

Max is in grave danger... and running out of time. A patient at Pennhurst asylum has visitors. Elsewhere, in Russia, Hopper is hard at work.

[Harvey]

I have to say, the critics were right. The Hopper storyline really is the weakest and least interesting part of the season.

[bettername2come]

"I could've taken you out with this lamp!"  I want to laugh at that, but Steve took out a Russian soldier with a phone last season, so seems plausible. 

I love that Erica charges interest on hush money. I wanted her to slam the door on the basketball captain's fingers.

"Holy shit, there's a little ballerina in here." "She's giving you an academic scholar vibe?" Hee. 

"If you think I'm going to spend what is likely the last day of my life in the armpit that is Mike Wheeler's basement, you're out of your mind. Either take me where I need to go or tie me down, which is technically kidnapping of a minor. And if I live to see another day, Steve, I swear to God, I will prosecute...I know a good lawyer." No wonder Steve's so tired of babysitting. Although I did love Nancy saying they weren't babies anymore. 

I'm so glad that Owen's friends really are the good guys. I was also really glad that the boys brought out the injured agent since it seemed he was telling them to go on without him. 

I feel like a gif of Hopper pulling up blankets and eating peanut butter straight out of the jar will be a meme soon. And in this case it will be appropriate to pronounce it JIF.

Yuri, you bastard!

Ok, Max visiting Billy's grave and reading a letter makes more sense if she's worried she's about to die.

Oh, that ending. That was so dramatic. I feel like she was able to fight longer than the others, probably because she knows what's happening. She's going to bring back that piece of Veccna's neck into the real world like in Nightmare on Elm Street, isn't she? And now I feel the need to download Kate Bush's "Running Up That Hill", even though I already have Within Temptation and Placebo covers of it. 

[Spartan Girl]

That was seriously intense.

[Redrum]

5 hours ago, bettername2come said:

g. She's going to bring back that piece of Veccna's neck into the real world like in Nightmare on Elm Street, isn't she?

We all did notice that Victor Creel was played by Robert "Freddie Krueger" Englund, right? :D

[Cranberry]

I could watch an entire episode of Robin and Nancy lying to get into places while bickering all the while. I loved Robin's impassioned speech about her summer camp inspiration to research murderers and how hard it is for women in the field. Even Nancy seemed impressed!

I really want to see Max get back to normal (or at least close), but Sadie Sink has been killing it this season. Her emotions never ring false.

Of course it wasn't as easy as paying someone to bring Hopper back... and now Joyce and Murray are in trouble, too. Eleven better get those powers back soon.

I'm glad the California group is on their way back to Hawkins. I'd love to see the whole group together earlier in this season than usual.

I'm enjoying these episodes but they're so long. I feel like I just watched four movies.

[krankydoodle]

I'm glad Will got a nice moment with Mike, but I was also hoping we'd see more of his relationship with El this season now that they've been living together for a while.

I don't buy that the famously paranoid Murray would ingest anything offered by Yuri, but I admit I've been a bit bored by the Russia storyline so wasn't paying close attention to those scenes.

I enjoyed the Silence of the Lambs vibes at the asylum and the makeup on Robert Englund was surprisingly disturbing. They're really amping up the horrific imagery this season.

Edited May 28, 2022 by krankydoodle

[ch1]

21 minutes ago, krankydoodle said:

I'm glad Will got a nice moment with Mike, but I was also hoping we'd see more of his relationship with El this season now that they've been living together for a while.

It seems the writers have zero interest in Will.  Hell in any of the Byers really.

[TiredMe]

When Max was running I yelled, weave and bob Max, have you not seen Game of Thrones? Lol sorry if you don’t get the reference. 
 

very intense and having Robert Englund was a big get in my opinion. 

[overtherainbow]

4 minutes ago, ch1 said:

It seems the writers have zero interest in Will.  Hell in any of the Byers really.

They do seem to be building up to something with Will.

Others have implied that he's in the closet and secretly in love with Mike but I'm not sure that's the case. 

There's this awkward tension between him and Mike that's undeniable though. 

And Jonathon is just...there. 

[BlackberryJam]

If Jonathan scenes were left on the cutting room floor, nothing would be missed and the episodes wouldn’t be so painfully long.

[Redrum]

29 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

If Jonathan scenes were left on the cutting room floor, nothing would be missed and the episodes wouldn’t be so painfully long.

Except that we'd need someone to share the driving to Indiana.  But I get it. I honestly feel this way about the whole "Hopper in Russia" plot. 

[BlackberryJam]

12 minutes ago, Redrum said:

Except that we'd need someone to share the driving to Indiana.  But I get it. I honestly feel this way about the whole "Hopper in Russia" plot. 

Cut them both! Hopper in Russia is an excuse to get the adults out of town. 

[roctavia]

1 hour ago, BlackberryJam said:

If Jonathan scenes were left on the cutting room floor, nothing would be missed and the episodes wouldn’t be so painfully long.

Isn't the Jonathan actor sort of a creep, (like arrested for something in between seasons?) I don't like him that much anyway, and he's definitely not better this season... I wish they would cut him from the story.. plus he still looks like he's 45 or something... not just a little old to play highschooler.

[SeanC]

16 minutes ago, roctavia said:

Isn't the Jonathan actor sort of a creep, (like arrested for something in between seasons?)

Not a creep, he just likes recreational narcotics.

[Lady Calypso]

I got worried there for Max for a bit. This show has not been shy about killing kids this season, and when we saw the dead people Vecna killed in his world, I thought "oh, they could trap Max here, surely." I'm glad she escaped, and I didn't want to think they'd kill her off, but man would that up the stakes considerably. I'm very, very glad they didn't.

 The Russia storyline is boring. I was desperately hoping that it WOULD be that easy, just to the adults can get back to California and we can actually move on to the interesting aspect of the show. Alas, it looks like Murray/Joyce are heading to Russia to get tortured with Hopper. Which, yawn. 

I do agree that Jonathan's stuff isn't necessarily interesting, but he is kind of needed in a way because El/Mike/Will can't be doing stuff on their own. And yes, they are building up to something with Will. I wish he got something more to do, but it's clear his purpose is keeping this big secret (possibly Mike-related) for a while. I want them to just say what it is so Will can get more actively involved. Right now, they have his story solely on this big secret with his painting. 

The asylum stuff was very well done. Good get with Robert Englund. They've definitely upped the horror in a way.

[SeanC]

9 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

I do agree that Jonathan's stuff isn't necessarily interesting, but he is kind of needed in a way because El/Mike/Will can't be doing stuff on their own.

In general I think the writers of this show have done an amazing job of juggling the original cast and keeping everybody relevant year-to-year, in addition to integrating new people each season. But Jonathan is maybe the only one of the original core cast whose overall relevance feels like it has been consistently waning -- originally in direct correlation to the ascent of Steve, but now that Robin has been added to the "teen" cast as well (the original kid characters are teens as well now, of course, blurring the distinction between those groups), it's hard not to see that all of the other teen characters seem to inspire the writers more than Jonathan does.

[DearEvette]

Yay!  Lucas has hooked up with his REAL team again.

I am so happy to know that all the angst Max was going through in ep one wasn't just Billy related but Vecna related.  This was totally her episode!

Steve really is the best with the younger teens.  I know he hates being the babysitter, but it works for me. LOL

Maury remains the best.  "There are certain things you can be late to... a one year old's birthday party because that little idiot won't remember it." Oh the welcome levity and the only real saving grace to this Hopper storyline so far.

Also, Mike and El's great love story is just not working for me.  I just don't feel it or see it.  They actually were sweeter together when they were younger kids in S1.

Argyll and Eddie are great new additions.  If keeping Jonathan is the price for Argyll, I am ok with that.  Otherwise, I agree Jonathan seems like he is being wasted.

100%  here for the Ruth and Rose show.

[Blue Plastic]

18 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

Also, Mike and El's great love story is just not working for me.  I just don't feel it or see it.  They actually were sweeter together when they were younger kids in S1.

Me, too.  They were super cute and sweet in S1, but it's not the same at all now.

[mmecorday]

Quote

I really want to see Max get back to normal (or at least close), but Sadie Sink has been killing it this season. Her emotions never ring false.

She is fantastic this season. The scene at the clothesline brought tears to my eyes, then chills to my spine.

[PurpleTentacle]

Very nice use of music (and Kate Bush). As somebody who loves good sound, I approve.

On 5/28/2022 at 12:55 AM, Harvey said:

I have to say, the critics were right. The Hopper storyline really is the weakest and least interesting part of the season.

Yeah, they probably should have sidelined the adults somehow, earlier and with less scenes than they are doing now. It's really the kids show now, especially since some of them are young adults.

I wouldn't even have minded if Hopper was actually dead (even though he's my eye candy in this show). But I guess they wrote themselves a bit into a corner with that stinger at the end of last season...

6 hours ago, SeanC said:

Not a creep, he just likes recreational narcotics.

Nothing wrong with that. Only thing wrong is the war on drugs.

[LittleIggy]

I loved Robert Englund scratching his nails on the table since Freddy was always dragging his “nails” on the walls in the movies.

[QuantumMechanic]

11 hours ago, TiredMe said:

When Max was running I yelled, weave and bob Max, have you not seen Game of Thrones? Lol sorry if you don’t get the reference. 
 

very intense and having Robert Englund was a big get in my opinion. 

Or for us older people, "Serpentine, Max!  Serpentine!"

[thuganomics85]

Those final moments really were intense.  In the back of my mind I suspected that Max would find a way to dodge death, but at the same time I knew that this show would totally kill one of their regulars in this kind of way to ramp up the drama and raise the stakes.  Thankfully, not only is she still alive, I think they still accomplished their goal of showing just how dangerous this monster is and even if they found a weakness of some kind (music!), I can easily see it finding a way to strike back in a way they might not see coming.  Really curious to see how this goes.

Oh, Steve!  I know you hate being stuck in the babysitter role, but you really are good at it!  Dude is always making sure that these crazy kids aren't being left to their own devices.

Nancy and Robin continue to be an effective and fun duo.  And this time they get to interview Victor Creel!  Played by Robert Englund!  Those flashbacks were effectively creepy too.

Wasn't expecting Jonathan, Will, and Mike to find themselves in a middle of a shootout.  Credit to that one agent for almost single-handily holding everyone back and helping the kids get to safety.  Which, in this case, is Argyle and his pizza van!

Agree that the Russian subplot is the weakest part and it kind of sucks that Joyce and Murray are now dragged into it.  Really feels like it's just an excuse to take all of the adult characters off the board/Hawkins, so that it's up to the kids to save the day.  Which, I understand, but they could have found a better way to do this.

[backhometome]

Max!! I really love her. 

Steve complains when he is left with the younger ones but I love their team ups. 

Lol at Nancy saying they arent babies anymore. She had a point. 

Robin/Nancy were fun. 

Hopper with the peanut butter 😢

Though his poor feet in the snow was all I could think about. 

Finally something is happening with Will/Mike and Jonathan. 

I didn't even notice El was missing this episode. 

[silverstream]

I just noticed that Hopper's little nameplate in the Gulag says "American" - the Russians here are such a joke. I thought they had a plan when they sent Hopper to Russia last season, but so far it feels as if that's either not the case or as if the plan was "generate busywork for the adults so they're not with the kids where the real action is" from the beginning.

[Clanstarling]

21 hours ago, roctavia said:

Isn't the Jonathan actor sort of a creep, (like arrested for something in between seasons?) I don't like him that much anyway, and he's definitely not better this season... I wish they would cut him from the story.. plus he still looks like he's 45 or something... not just a little old to play highschooler.

Looked him up, and didn't see any negative stories about him on Google. He's certainly not the most charismatic of the characters, and his chief characteristic seems to be mopiness - but that's nothing new.

16 hours ago, DearEvette said:

Also, Mike and El's great love story is just not working for me.  I just don't feel it or see it.  They actually were sweeter together when they were younger kids in S1.

I think that's deliberate. In my experience (many, many moves) being separated from boyfriends or girlfriends by that far, and that long, the tendency is for at least one side of the equation to cool off.

13 hours ago, QuantumMechanic said:

Or for us older people, "Serpentine, Max!  Serpentine!"

Laughed out loud, because that's what I said!

I have to agree that the Russian part of the story is pretty boring. Joyce and Murray scenes work mostly because they're funny together. But yeah, they needed to get them out of the way. I love Hop, but frankly I thought it would have been better to have him truly dead - a great sacrifice for his loved ones and town. I think having him live diminished his "sacrifice" at the end of the last season.

Vecna is certainly creepy - and this season is really amping up the gore. But I really like music being the way to get someone out of a Vecna trance.

The actress who plays Max is just exceptional. That scene at Billy's grave, her wiping the tears away now and then, felt absolutely real. I always liked her, but hadn't realized just how great she is.

Edited May 29, 2022 by Clanstarling

[eleanorofaquitaine]

Hopper in Russia is just taking too long, if you ask me. I already thought that three episodes of this was enough and now to see him re-caught? That's annoying. 

IMO, they are doing a great job with the Max storyline. The notion that she blames herself makes a lot of sense to me, as is the idea that blaming herself makes her susceptible to Vecna's curse. Except for Chrissy, all of Vecna's victims seem to be dealing not only with trauma but the idea that they are to blame for whatever happened to them. (And maybe Chrissy felt that way, too, since it seems like a part of her trauma is connected to an eating disorder and those disorders are often connected to needing a sense of control). 

[AimingforYoko]

1 hour ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

Hopper in Russia is just taking too long

Yuri brought to mind that old Serenity quote, "Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!"

Sadie took her showcase ep and ran with it. And best use of Kate Bush since "This Woman's Work" from She's Having a Baby.

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

Hopper in Russia is just taking too long, if you ask me. I already thought that three episodes of this was enough and now to see him re-caught? That's annoying. 

IMO, they are doing a great job with the Max storyline. The notion that she blames herself makes a lot of sense to me, as is the idea that blaming herself makes her susceptible to Vecna's curse. Except for Chrissy, all of Vecna's victims seem to be dealing not only with trauma but the idea that they are to blame for whatever happened to them. (And maybe Chrissy felt that way, too, since it seems like a part of her trauma is connected to an eating disorder and those disorders are often connected to needing a sense of control). 

With Chrissy, there was a brief moment when a family portrait was shown, and the father looked familiar to me. I don't think he was the mayor, but I think was one of the ones who died - so maybe she has some trauma regarding that. I still think that she might have been pregnant (even the fat shaming text could be a clueless mom).

[DoctorAtomic]

Throwing up is tv for pregnant. That's the first thing I thought. Why would she want to buy Special K out of nowhere with no history of drugs?There's no way she's going to be able to go get an abortion.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

It's possible but I don’t feel like the show is all that subtle. If they wanted us to think she was pregnant, I think they could have had Jason or her parents in her trance state indicate that. As for the drugs, I presume she wanted them to help calm her down. 

[Dev F]

35 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

With Chrissy, there was a brief moment when a family portrait was shown, and the father looked familiar to me. I don't think he was the mayor, but I think was one of the ones who died - so maybe she has some trauma regarding that. I still think that she might have been pregnant (even the fat shaming text could be a clueless mom).

I assumed that the painting was probably based on the (uncredited) actor who played her father for his brief appearance in Chrissy's hallucination with his eyes and mouth sewed shut. But I saw a tweet the other day in which someone speculated that the painting of her father was meant to resemble actor Olan Montgomery, who had a minor role as one of the asshole newspaper reporters in season 3 and died of COVID early in the pandemic. Maybe that's why he looked vaguely familiar?

In any event, the particulars of Chrissy's nightmares all seemed to point in one direction. The rotting food, the cruel mother who calls her daughter a pig while obsessing over whether she fits into a dress, the father who can't see or say anything about what's happening—add to that the scene of her vomiting in the lavatory, and it adds up to "Abusive mother obsesses over her daughter's weight, causing her to develop an eating disorder."

As for the ketamine, I assume Chrissy was looking for a powerful sedative that would suppress her nightmares and let her get some sleep.

Edited May 29, 2022 by Dev F

[eleanorofaquitaine]

1 minute ago, Dev F said:

As for the ketamine, I assume Chrissy was looking for a powerful sedative that would suppress her nightmares and let her get some sleep.

Yes, that was my presumption, as well. Also, she didn't ask specifically for ketamine or Special K, she just asked for something strong.

Also, this was the era where abortion would have meant a procedure, not medication. RU-486 wasn't even introduced until 1996. If she was looking to get an abortion, she wouldn't be asking for drugs, she'd be looking for someone to take her to a clinic or help her pay for it.

[DoctorAtomic]

Or forcing a miscarriage by taking horse tranquilizers. 

[eleanorofaquitaine]

I am saying that the average teenage girl in 1986 had very little idea of "forcing miscarriages" or that drugs could be used for an abortion. If she was looking to get an abortion, her first thought would not have been thinking about getting drugs, it would be to find a way to a clinic.

Also, as I note above, Chrissy didn't ask for Special K specifically, she just asked for something "stronger." Eddie was getting her something stronger based on his experience. 

Anyway, as stated, the narrative doesn't really support the idea that she was pregnant. All evidence is that she had a controlling mother and an eating disorder. Believe me, young women vomit for all sorts of reasons other than pregnancy (including non-eating disorder reasons, too).

[Redrum]

Yeah, can't see "AND SHE WAS KNOCKED UP!!!" not being part of the narrative here. 

[Dev F]

42 minutes ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

Also, as I note above, Chrissy didn't ask for Special K specifically, she just asked for something "stronger." Eddie was getting her something stronger based on his experience.

Yep, and the scene ends right at that point, so presumably she went on to explain what she meant by "stronger" and Eddie suggested ketamine as the drug most likely to produce the results she wanted. If she had said, "It's for an abortion," Eddie would presumably have said "I don't have any drugs that can do that," or at least not suggested a drug like Special K, which has no abortifacient properties.

And if she didn't actually explain what she wanted it for, she'd have no reason to think whatever she got would induce abortion, since that's a very particular effect that doesn't map to how "strong" a drug is in a recreational sense. To me it seems clear that what she was looking for was something "strong" in the commonly understood sense -- something especially good at getting her high so she wouldn't have to deal with the headaches and nightmares that were plaguing her.

[DoctorAtomic]

I think it's a bit unfair that my interpretation is being arbitrarily judged as somehow wrong and warrants being shouted down. That was my viewing experience. It's no more valid than anyone else's, nor less. Either interpretation is a reasonable impetus for her to go to Eddie for drugs, as is the request for 'something stronger'. She could feel guilt for either that would have made her receptive to Venca and led to her death. Similarly for the bf to be shocked that she was looking for drugs in the first place. 

The real point here is that no one really cares about her death beyond using her as a means to act like a lynch mob against a member of their town they already judged as unworthy. 

Edited May 29, 2022 by DoctorAtomic

[eleanorofaquitaine]

57 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I think it's a bit unfair that my interpretation is being arbitrarily judged as somehow wrong and warrants being shouted down. That was my viewing experience. It's no more valid than anyone else's, nor less. Either interpretation is a reasonable impetus for her to go to Eddie for drugs, as is the request for 'something stronger'. She could feel guilt for either that would have made her receptive to Venca and led to her death. Similarly for the bf to be shocked that she was looking for drugs in the first place. 

The real point here is that no one really cares about her death beyond using her as a means to act like a lynch mob against a member of their town they already judged as unworthy. 

It's not being "arbitrarily judged as wrong." Your viewing experience experience is your viewing experience and nothing any of us can say is going to change your viewing experience. Some of us are just pointing to what we see in the narrative in terms of images and dialogue that speaks to a different explanation. You're obviously free to interpret things differently, just as we are.

Edited May 29, 2022 by eleanorofaquitaine

[Armchair Critic]

Sam from Ozark! He has such a sweet face it was good casting for him to be young Victor Kreel to make him sympathetic.

[festivus]

I'm like legit pissed this Russia storyline is going to keep going. Such a waste. I love that music is the key to escaping Vecna. Up until we found out that little tidbit I thought Max might actually be a goner. I feel like we're probably going to lose at least one of them before it's all over.

[Racj82]

On 5/27/2022 at 6:55 PM, Harvey said:

I have to say, the critics were right. The Hopper storyline really is the weakest and least interesting part of the season.

It was never not going to be. It doesn't involve the kids. Hopper's escape and the editing of the betrayal were aces so whatever. Haters gonna hate.

Edited May 30, 2022 by Racj82

[DoctorAtomic]

How BAMF is his return going to be though? The kids are going to go bonkers.

[Racj82]

On 5/28/2022 at 3:36 AM, Cranberry said:

I'm enjoying these episodes but they're so long. I feel like I just watched four movies.

It's just me guessing but I feel like the longer episodes were at least partially thought of to slow down binging. But, it's probably just going to create more complaining about the length while still binging. This isn't a knock on you. I just know it's going to happen. Right now I'm not really interested in watching anything else but Stranger Things so I don't care how long the episodes are. Doing weekly drops would piss other people off after the model has ready been established.

Edited May 30, 2022 by Racj82

[Racj82]

19 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Those final moments really were intense.  In the back of my mind I suspected that Max would find a way to dodge death, but at the same time I knew that this show would totally kill one of their regulars in this kind of way to ramp up the drama and raise the stakes.  Thankfully, not only is she still alive, I think they still accomplished their goal of showing just how dangerous this monster is and even if they found a weakness of some kind (music!), I can easily see it finding a way to strike back in a way they might not see coming.  Really curious to see how this goes.

I don't fear for any of the female leads. Any of them dying off would cause a bunch of backlash just because they are female characters. Knowing that, I doubt the Duffer Brothers will go there.

The tension was still great. I just couldn't fully buy into it because of reality.

[Redrum]

2 minutes ago, Racj82 said:

I don't fear for any of the female leads. Any of them dying off would cause a bunch of backlash just because they are female characters. Knowing that, I doubt the Duffer Brothers will go there.

At least not until the final episode.

[Sarah 103]

On 5/28/2022 at 9:18 PM, DearEvette said:

Yay!  Lucas has hooked up with his REAL team again.

It took Lucas long enough to figure it out, but I'm glad he did.

On 5/29/2022 at 3:36 AM, thuganomics85 said:

Oh, Steve!  I know you hate being stuck in the babysitter role, but you really are good at it!  Dude is always making sure that these crazy kids aren't being left to their own devices.

On 5/28/2022 at 9:18 PM, DearEvette said:

Steve really is the best with the younger teens.  I know he hates being the babysitter, but it works for me. LOL

On 5/29/2022 at 7:47 AM, backhometome said:

Steve complains when he is left with the younger ones but I love their team ups. 

Steve hates being stuck with the younger teens, but he's good at keeping them alive and he will do anything to protect them. He is also aware of this aspect of his personality. Steve and Dustin are especailly fantastic together. 

On 5/29/2022 at 7:47 AM, backhometome said:

Lol at Nancy saying they arent babies anymore. She had a point. 

They're not babies, but they are still too young to be left alone with all of the monsters and spooky stuff out there. Also, she knows Steve will do anything to protect them. 

I hated what Robin wore to the asylum. Nancy looked like a professional. Robin looked like she was off to Sunday brunch. She didn't look professional. I get they were going for a laugh, but it didn't work for me. Robin could have borrowed something that Nancy wore last year to the newspaper. 

[Clanstarling]

32 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

I hated what Robin wore to the asylum. Nancy looked like a professional. Robin looked like she was off to Sunday brunch. She didn't look professional. I get they were going for a laugh, but it didn't work for me. Robin could have borrowed something that Nancy wore last year to the newspaper. 

My impression is that's what Nancy picked out for her. It didn't work for me either - but then Nancy isn't too fond of Robin. Still, I agree, it wasn't professional looking (and was the worse combo of 80's clothes I may have ever seen)

[Lillith]

Why oh why did they have to give Billy my date of birth? 

I'm finding Mike annoying this season but he is a teen so...

I'm wondering if the symptoms (headaches, nosebleeds etc.) are the symptoms that attract Vecna of if the person gets them as a result of being targeted?