S06.E04: Don't Let Me Keep You

[chocolatine]

2 hours ago, Rootbeer said:

Also, they managed to go to the cabin in the Adirondacks on a regular basis, even when the kids were young.  The Adirondacks is a minimum 8-9 hour drive from Pittsburgh, more than twice as long as a trip to Grandma's.

Not relevant to this episode, but I thought the cabin was in the Poconos, not the Adirondacks. You may be thinking of an episode last season titled "Adirondacks" but that was in reference to the chairs that Nicky gave to Kevin and Madison as a wedding gift.

[perkie1968]

17 hours ago, maggiemae said:

Have we ever seen a member of this family having a cat or a dog?

The family had a dog.  Jack went back in for it during the fire, which is likely what ended up killing him, spending extra time inhaling smoke.

Kate/Toby had a dog before the baby came along, but I don't remember what happened to it.  

[3 is enough]

3 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Still, in spite of that, what  I don't think  is  right is keeping kids and grandparents apart.  I've never been a grandparent, but I'm told the love they feel for their grandchildren is a special kind of wonderful and the kids themselves often have a bond with the grandparent that fills a need the parents don't even know about.  Maybe if Jack had sucked it up for their sake he might have made new, good memories with his mother.

This is so true. I can't even begin to explain how much I love my granddaughters.  When the 3 year old says " I want Grandma to sit next to me!" it's the best feeling in the world.  I was fortunate to have wonderful grandparents and I could never imagine keeping my kids away from theirs. I was sad when we moved away and my kids had long distance relationships with our parents, but we made the effort and saw them a few times a year. 

[Rootbeer]

16 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

Not relevant to this episode, but I thought the cabin was in the Poconos, not the Adirondacks. You may be thinking of an episode last season titled "Adirondacks" but that was in reference to the chairs that Nicky gave to Kevin and Madison as a wedding gift.

Might be.  The Poconos are still about a 4 hour drive though, no different than the drive to Ohio timewise, though in the opposite direction.

Edited January 26, 2022 by Rootbeer

[Hedgehog2022]

I have been critical of this show but I really connected with this episode. A lot of us have lost a parent or both parents and regret not spending enough time with them as we navigated adulthood and being parents ourselves. Our past with our families is sometimes rocky or fraught with bad memories that we are trying to put behind us. I think that was the point of this episode.

Jack had a past that he had struggled to move on from and for the most part succeeded in doing...but the death of his mother brought back his past and his mistakes. I don't think he stopped loving his mother or abandoned her...nor she him. They spoke every Sunday and even if it wasn't always a lengthy conversation or left either one of them with a comforting feeling, they did still speak with one another. Their relationship wasn't perfect and he took on alot adult responsibilities as a child and as a teen/young adult...protecting his brother from his abusive father and then protecting his mother from an abusive husband. One can understand his need to move on from these memories and make better ones with his own family with Rebecca.

Finally, I think Milo was on point in this episode. I could so relate to his feeling of being lost and alone when he broke down and said he doesn't have a mom anymore...he did that scene so well. It was refreshing to see Milo grab the acting spotlight instead of Sterling Brown.

 

[Empress1]

8 hours ago, cardigirl said:

I think this episode touched me so much because I remember making those weekly phone calls. Every Sunday night (or close to that) we would hear from my mother-in-law.

My friend’s FIL died suddenly a few years ago and they heard from him every Sunday, and she says if the phone rings on a Sunday she still expects it to be him half the time.

3 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I also believe Jack got Randall into running as a way for Randall to manage his anxiety (instead of taking him to see a professional because Jack). 

Exercise seemed to be their thing. They went to that Black-owned dojo together and apparently Jack taught Randall to play golf (though my dad, who also golfed, said “golf’s not exercise”) and Randall got to be good at it. That was a plot point one season.

Man, I lost my dad a little over a year ago and when Jack broke down and said “I don’t have a mom anymore,” I lost it. I wrote in my journal, “he’s gone” when it happened to me. When that reality hits for the first time, it is brutal. I kept thinking about a line from Michelle Obama’s book when she realizes her dad is dying: “He would miss the whole rest of my life.” My dad and I were close (emotionally and geographically; I was with him at the end and had been caring for him) so I don’t have that estrangement that Jack had, which I’m sure was so much harder. I get it, though. Each was a reminder of the abuse for the other.

1 hour ago, 3 is enough said:

This is so true. I can't even begin to explain how much I love my granddaughters.  When the 3 year old says " I want Grandma to sit next to me!" it's the best feeling in the world.  I was fortunate to have wonderful grandparents and I could never imagine keeping my kids away from theirs. I was sad when we moved away and my kids had long distance relationships with our parents, but we made the effort and saw them a few times a year. 

Yeah. I think it’s lovely that she had a “found family” although I hate that it didn’t include her grandkids. I had wonderful grandparents that were active parts of my village.

(My dad would say “I’m-a let you go” or “let me let you go” at the end of phone calls. I miss him every single day.)

[Eliot]

7 hours ago, Snapdragon said:

My problem with the whole "Saint Jack" thing is that while we the audience are shown and very aware of his flaws, everyone in present day (Rebecca, the Big Three, Miguel, Nicky) doesn't seem to be.  They always speak of Jack like he was this perfect being and it's become annoying.  In season one, Jack was presented as this amazing father/husband and everyone was all, "Cool.  What an outstanding guy."  Then in season two, they started to show his flaws and mistakes and I thought, "Man, what a neat idea for a show.  To have a character that at first is shown as the perfect husband and father and then to slowly show over several seasons how he was actually a deeply flawed individual but because of his premature death, his family has held him on that pedestal for so long and now you have them gradually come to the realization that while they loved him deeply, he wasn't the saint they've been making him out to be all these years."  But...no.  We basically had only the one scene where Kevin tries to bring up that Jack wasn't perfect in rehab therapy and Rebecca, Randall and Kate all shout him down about how Jack was amazing and how dare anyone say otherwise.  No real mention by the characters about Jack having any real flaws after that.  So yeah, I would like Jack's character a lot more if the other characters weren't still glossing over all his flaws.

Well said. I had always kind of thought that that’s where they were going with the show, but it seems like they’ve drifted away from that idea. That family has done so much damage to itself by idolizing Jack.

ETA, I stopped watching halfway through because I was worried about what was going to happen to the cat.

Edited January 27, 2022 by Eliot

[slasherboy]

4 hours ago, perkie1968 said:

Kate/Toby had a dog before the baby came along, but I don't remember what happened to it.  

His name is/was Audio but he was only in a few episodes with no word on his current status.

[Empress1]

6 minutes ago, slasherboy said:

His name is/was Audio but he was only in a few episodes with no word on his current status.

I remember he ate a rock. He recovered but I don't think we've seen him since.

[Violetgoblin6]

Heartfelt episode. 

Nice to see Marilyn had some happiness before she passed. Absolutely loved Cat Benetar! Sweetheart. 🥰 

Fantastic casting. Man, the family resemblance between Marilyn, Debby, Kate, and young Kate. Crazy. I really hope we get Stan's story- why did he stzrt drinking and turn bad? And no Nicky at the funeral? Was he even told? 

The cut up hotdogs reminded me of eating lunch at my mom's friend's house in like 1979, age 5. She had two sons, one a year older (1973) and one a year younger. She gave me a plate of sliced hotdogs with ketchup all over them, I was utterly repulsed. I was like, "where's the bun?" The things we remember! 

[Violetgoblin6]

22 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I spent way too much time trying to figure out where in Ohio this episode took place.  Cleveland is 3 hours from Pittsburgh.  So is Akron.  And the drive is rather easy even back in 1986.  I grew up outside of Cleveland and spent many a weekend driving to see my great grandmothers in Pennsylvania.   They lived in a small town between Johnstown and Altoona.  My parents had no difficulty taking my older brother and I on these trips.  I don't see why Jack and Rebecca never took their kids to see their grandmother and skate on the pond.

You're not alone.

"It looks like Pennsylvania", so Youngstown? Akron? 

 

I went to college near Dayton and went all over the state, spending time in Sharon Pennsylvania on the way back to the Philadelphia suburbs. It's right on the Ohio border. My friend Angel used to go to Ohio all the time. 

Also, lol, I figure it's February 1987, the movie posters. Gawd, I remember that time vividly. I was on the verge of 13. There indeed WAS a large snowstorm then. It's impressive how accurate the show presents clothing, furniture, tv shows, appliances, everything really. They don't even need me! I always thought I'd be great at reproducing different time periods for shows, good memory I guess. 

[Violetgoblin6]

22 hours ago, Jodithgrace said:

As I recall, The Clan of the Cave Bear series doesn't get sexy until Book 2. 

Yeah, the Nicky thing confused me, too. I forget if Jack or Nicky was older. if Nicky was older, he could have been in school, while Jack might have been in half day Kindergarten, though the actor looked older than that. 

You really can't completely ignore one brother while dealing with the death of a Mother of two sons. 

How come those ice skates were just the right size? 

Good ole Valley of the Horses. Jondeler? My friend gushed about it when we were 16 in 1990, how hot it was, lol! I admittedly bought it at Encore Books (remember that?) and only reqd the sex scenes, oh to be 16.

My cousin was a one time diabetes activist and wrote to Jean M Auel. She sent a curt reply that she was way too busy to deal with such things. But...at least she wrote? Judith Light wrote a long, beautiful letter. Many celebs had the fanclub send a pre autographed picture.

[Johnny Dollar]

It took until the final season for Jack to be exposed as a shitty son and a shitty brother. And his self-centeredness was on full display. When his mom’s friends were at the bar celebrating her life, he shut down emotionally because he couldn’t stand not being the center of the conversation. And keep your tears and “I don’t have a mother anymore” to yourself. I think you’ll be able to get over missing those weekly distracted three minute phone calls where you couldn’t wait to get her off the phone. No wonder those kids are so screwed up. 

[Hedgehog2022]

11 hours ago, bichonblitz said:

I just don't get all the St. Jack hate. There have been many episodes showing Jack with all his flaws. The series clearly shows that time and time again. Alcoholism, bad decisions, stubbornness. With all that, he was devoted to his wife and kids and they adored him, flaws and all. Milo is a good actor. I can't imagine any one else in the role. 

On to this episode...

I for sure thought when the family arrived back home and walked through the door, somebody would be carrying Cat Benatar in with them. Would have been a nice touch. 

Rebecca was lovely with Jack. She knew what to say, when to say it and sometimes just a look and a nod was enough. Driving to the funeral with the children in tow was perfect.  

St. Jack? How about St. Rebecca?!! She never does anything wrong, never makes mistakes and is perfect in every way. At least Jack has flaws that he acknowledges and makes mistakes from time to time. 

[Empress1]

5 minutes ago, Johnny Dollar said:

I think you’ll be able to get over missing those weekly distracted three minute phone calls

Maybe he will grieve the fact that he'll never have the chance to make those phone calls longer and more meaningful.

[Alexander Pope]

20 hours ago, kili said:

I'm not sure that it's Jack's job to do the heavy lifting in this relationship. He and his Mom were both horribly abused by Stanley, both mentally and physically.  Jack grew up knowing little normalcy at all. Describing the sounds that still terrify him (a footstep, the creak of a chair, the sound of a beer opening) shows that he is still impacted by the abuse. The fact that he couldn't protect either his Mother or his little brother haunts him.

It took me until the eulogy to understand that their presence impacted each other. Even talking to each other brought them back to their abusive home. Both Jack and his Mom were very tense when she came to visit and ended up having an argument about the hot dogs (and we got our only mention of Nicky for the night).

If Jack punished her by not visiting her and being distant, she punished him even more. He at least told her about his new safe family. His Mom didn't even tell him that she had a cat let alone boyfriend. Sure, the phone calls were awkward, but letter writing was something she could have done. Now, she may have told herself she did it so that she didn't impose on Jack, but the real truth is that she wanted to protect her new life. She iced out her own son just as much if not more than he iced her out.

They were two very broken people who badly needed therapy. And add Nicky.

If I could like this a hundred times I would.  They were both traumatized, but she was the parent, not Jack.  I actually liked that in this episode we saw Jack as flawed--in this episode, he was a damaged kid.  What was her excuse?

[txhorns79]

1 minute ago, Alexander Pope said:

What was her excuse?

True.  If only she and Jack had been able to resolve things with a naked ghost swim, but I suppose it was too cold out for that. 

[shoovenbooty]

Watching Jack's mom boil the hot dogs brought me back to my childhood. My mom always boiled our hot dogs. I didn't know there was another way to cook them. The first time I cooked hot dogs after my husband and I married, I boiled them. He said, "What the hell did you do to these??" We have grilled or fried our hot dogs ever since. 😂

As for hot dogs with tomato soup, that soup looked awfully thick and I wonder if Jack's mom was kind of using it as a sauce for the hot dogs? It was Heinz, and when I think of Heinz I think of ketchup. My mother-in-law is Italian and uses Campbell's tomato soup to make pasta sauce (it's actually pretty good). Maybe using canned tomato soup for sauces was a "thing" in the 60's?

I hope Kevin being around Cassidy in next week's episode helps make him realize that he DOES love Madison. Not a fan of Cassidy.

[Crs97]

1 hour ago, Hedgehog2022 said:

How about St. Rebecca?!! She never does anything wrong, never makes mistakes and is perfect in every way.

May I redirect you to season one when Rebecca couldn’t do anything right?

[Leeds]

12 hours ago, MissLucas said:

I loved tomato soup all my life.

 

Our family didn't have it when I was growing up, but my kids have always loved it (from Pacific Foods, not Heinz).

[Snapdragon]

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

True.  If only she and Jack had been able to resolve things with a naked ghost swim, but I suppose it was too cold out for that. 

There's still 14 episodes left in this season, so fingers crossed!

[KaveDweller]

1 hour ago, Hedgehog2022 said:

St. Jack? How about St. Rebecca?!! She never does anything wrong, never makes mistakes and is perfect in every way. At least Jack has flaws that he acknowledges and makes mistakes from time to time. 

I think Rebecca hiding that she knew who Randall's birth father was his whole life would be categorized as a mistake/wrong doing. 

And Kate has tons of resentment towards her, although I don't remember the specifics.

[Hedgehog2022]

1 hour ago, Crs97 said:

May I redirect you to season one when Rebecca couldn’t do anything right?

Since Season 1 her character has been beyond reproach.

[Quickbeam]

I really enjoyed this episode but for the umpteenth time this year, I had to watch an actor pretend to knit who really doesn’t. To my knitter eyes, it’s just jarring. I wish they’d opted for something else that would look more realistic. 

[Hedgehog2022]

29 minutes ago, KaveDweller said:

I think Rebecca hiding that she knew who Randall's birth father was his whole life would be categorized as a mistake/wrong doing. 

And Kate has tons of resentment towards her, although I don't remember the specifics.

Ok...every character on this show has had a mistake or two. Some people on here were calling out Jack as a "Saint" which I don't get since clearly the writers have clearly made him to be heroic at times but deeply flawed and often times a risk taker at the expense of his family...hardly "Saint" status. Rebecca has a had few issues but all in all, especially in the last several seasons, she's been flawless. 

I think Kate resented Rebecca as a teenager mostly because Rebecca seemed perfect to her...beautiful, thin, talented...Kate was an angst ridden teen who had been a Daddy's girl until Jack died. She was struggling without his encouragement and belief in her. Their relationship was not in a good place until Kate had children of her own. 

[CarpeFelis]

4 hours ago, Johnny Dollar said:

When his mom’s friends were at the bar celebrating her life, he shut down emotionally because he couldn’t stand not being the center of the conversation.

While I’m not a big fan of Jack, and agree he can be self-centered, that wasn’t my impression in this scene. It felt to me like he was overwhelmed and felt left out as it hit him that all these details of his mom’s life were completely foreign to him, like he never really knew her. Kind of like sitting with a bunch of people telling “you had to be there” stories when you were the only one who hadn’t been there.

In general I don’t care much for the flashback-only episodes, and this was no exception. The only thing I liked about it was my new favorite character: Cat Benatar! What a gorgeous kitty.

2 hours ago, Quickbeam said:

I really enjoyed this episode but for the umpteenth time this year, I had to watch an actor pretend to knit who really doesn’t. To my knitter eyes, it’s just jarring. I wish they’d opted for something else that would look more realistic. 

THIS!!!

[debraran]

Re, the knitting, many feel like that about piano/violin playing too. It distracts them so much at how badly they are faking it, they miss the dialogue! : )

I read on one those "Hollywood" type fan pages, that "Where is Nicky?" was the most asked fan question after the show and many did not like it, they put samples that sounded very familiar of quotes, comments, etc. Some fans feeling grief with loss, find it touching concentrating on other aspects of the show. The writing is fiction but you should base things on some truth, we let go the traveling times and money issues but don't erase a child and say "Wasn't he dead?" Nicky even on the show, was never dead, he was given a pysch discharge and spent some time in hospital. The army gave him checks to his only address and somehow his army friends (who didn't write him off) wanted him to meet up with them, so they knew he was alive and not so well. If TIU leaves that hole along with the missing dog (Covid had him look for other work?) it is what it is, but the writing is horrible in that regard. They can make it worse by adding an even more unbelievable scenario. Would have been nice if Nicky went to that town with Mom, would have fit in and maybe gotten himself together with his mom and others near by.

Why Jack wasn't written to just write him off to him and family but not lie about his death is beyond my comprehension. "Dead to me" is okay, but you let others know it's something you don't want to talk about, they can as adults, you don't erase them from others and kill them. That is not your choice. I think it's the only time I caught an interview with Milo where he was surprised too. A quote from Variety "

“There have been very few things that Jack has done that I haven’t agreed with, but not talking to his brother was definitely one that upset me,” Ventimiglia says.

He thought if he lived till 50, he would have softened (he hoped) but it wasn't written that way.

 

[ams1001]

1 hour ago, debraran said:

Re, the knitting, many feel like that about piano/violin playing too. It distracts them so much at how badly they are faking it, they miss the dialogue! : )

lol...I watch TwoSet Violin on Youtube and they have several videos where they critique terrible violin playing in movies and TV shows.

[Johnny Dollar]

10 hours ago, Empress1 said:

Maybe he will grieve the fact that he'll never have the chance to make those phone calls longer and more meaningful.

What was stopping him from doing that in the first place? There are other times in the week to talk to your mother than Sunday from 6:00 to 6:03 pm. I don’t think she would’ve minded if he asked her to move their calls to a time when the kids are asleep. 

[Johnny Dollar]

5 hours ago, CarpeFelis said:

While I’m not a big fan of Jack, and agree he can be self-centered, that wasn’t my impression in this scene. It felt to me like he was overwhelmed and felt left out as it hit him that all these details of his mom’s life were completely foreign to him, like he never really knew her. Kind of like sitting with a bunch of people telling “you had to be there” stories when you were the only one who hadn’t been there.

In general I don’t care much for the flashback-only episodes, and this was no exception. The only thing I liked about it was my new favorite character: Cat Benatar! What a gorgeous kitty.

THIS!!!

Which would have made the get together at the bar the perfect time to get to know his mother better. Then maybe he wouldn’t have struggled so hard to write her eulogy. But instead of learning what a great person and friend she was, he was too busy wallowing in the trademark Pearson self-pity. 

[Ohiopirate02]

8 hours ago, Hedgehog2022 said:

I think Kate resented Rebecca as a teenager mostly because Rebecca seemed perfect to her...beautiful, thin, talented...Kate was an angst ridden teen who had been a Daddy's girl until Jack died. She was struggling without his encouragement and belief in her. Their relationship was not in a good place until Kate had children of her own. 

There was also something else going on with Rebecca never visiting her two children on the West Coast.  The show never really delved into that after season 2, and even then they never explained why Rebecca was unable to board a flight.  We got her excuses like Miguel can't fly due to his gout, but to never visit your children for more than a decade is cold.  We know money was never the issue.  I still cannot wrap my head around a supposedly loving parent not wanting to spend time with her children.  For years, if Kevin and Kate wanted to see their mom they had to travel to her while Rebecca was at Randall's all the time.  To never make an effort would have stung and made Kevin and Kate's relationships with Rebecca even more distant.  I had a rough relationship with my mother in my 20s, but even then she was able to get into a car and drive 600 miles once a year to see me.  I flew home for Christmas and my parents visited in the summer around my birthday.  

[CountryGirl]

I'll go against the grain and say that I loved this episode, even though it was very hard to watch. I'll go even further and say that I appreciate that we still see episodes with Jack, even Jack-centric ones. He is still very much a part of the canvas and Kevin's painting. He always will be.

I think this episode is part of the set-up to what we have all known for some time is coming at the end of the show - the death of Rebecca.

For me, knowing this, it makes perfect sense that they would have included the loss of Jack's mother. There are 14 episodes to come and plenty of time for other stories. Like FINALLY getting Rebecca and Miguel's marriage origin story next week.

It also reinforced the importance of my relationship with my mother, who will be 80 next year, and to make the most of our time together. It also touched on subject matter that, unfortunately, is also a part of my past, with respect to the domestic violence.

At first, I was honestly angry with Jack. Why didn't he visit his mom, with or without the kids? But I also had trouble understanding why Marilyn couldn't have done the same, especially as she wouldn't have had triplets to contend with.  

Except it was not the distance or the logistics of triplets or the safety of solo travel for Jack's mom as she got older. It was obvious that neither of them wanted to be reminded of their past, of that house, or that man and they are both forever connected with those memories. I also think Marilyn was rightfully afraid of running into Stanley by accident or him tracking her down somehow or, worst of all, her being tempted to go back to him.

Trying to move on from that house and that man and the ugly memories, unfortunately resulted in them moving apart from each other. Because no matter how many miles or years you put between yourself and a past like that one, it's never far enough or long enough. Even in the happy life Jack and Rebecca built and the life that I have built, it lurks in the corners, just waiting to pounce.

My husband knew some of my past but knowing some details, having some occasional conversations, was nothing compared to the harsh reality of the things I carried into that marriage. Early in our marriage, we had had an argument. So trivial I cannot even recall now but I retreated to the kitchen to clean up the dishes and cool off. I was listening to music with noise-canceling headphones. He came in a few minutes later but I didn't hear him and my back was to him. He called my name a few times and obviously I didn't hear him. That's when he realized I had my headphones on and stepped towards me, pulling one of them free as he did so.

To his shock and horror, I immediately crouched down, putting my arms over my head. 

And of course I knew then as I know now that he would never, ever harm one hair on my head, never even think it, not for one second.

But he wasn't standing over his thirty-something-year-old wife. He was seeing the terrified little girl I had once been and I still carry her with me. No matter that it's now been over 40 years since I lived in my childhood home and with that man. Ironically, I was never hit, (though the threat was always there) but my mother and brother were and witnessing that is something that will never, ever leave me. Neither does the guilt that maybe if I had been hit, he would have hit them less.

I think there was also some resentment on Jack's part, as the child, for his having to be the parent for his mother at times when he was still a kid himself. I can relate to that piece as well. He undoubtedly had anger towards his mother for not protecting them all by leaving Stanley. Of course, he knows on an intellectual level that she had little options to leave back then (even now it is no picnic), but human beings aren't always rational ones and there would be unresolved anger. There would also be guilt on Marilyn's part, no matter how much she loved him, and seeing Jack is a reminder of her trauma and her feeling like she failed her sons by not getting out much sooner.  Again, I can relate to all of that so much.

All of that said, I think the love was still very much there, even if Jack seemed curt on the phone, again that guilt and resentment in play there, not to mention long-distance calls were not exactly cheap back then. We only saw a few phone calls, which were nothing in the scheme of 13 years of Sunday calls. If every call were like the few we were shown, I highly doubt Marilyn would have cherished them so much that she shared that with Debby and Mike. It also cannot be overstated that Jack saved his mother's life by getting her to agree to leave and taking her to a safe haven with first, her friend, and then cementing her safety by helping her move to another state with Debby. 

The sorrow, the sense of regret, the specter of his father looming large no matter how many years it had been. Him thinking he could lash out at his father with the news of his Marilyn’s death, that now that HE was grown with a family of his own HE had the power, and then his father's nasty response sending him right back into being that scared little boy with the broken sled. His flinching at the funeral as the door opened and then the relief that it was first, another mourner, and later, his wife and children and not his father, resonated with me.

His keeping his emotions inside so he could make the home he never had, be the father he wished he'd had. That shaped so much of what was to come with his own children and their not always being able to address their emotions and choosing to bury them instead. Randall's breakdown in S1 is but one example.

That moment where he got up from the table while his kids were happily eating their tomato soup and cut-up hot dogs so he could finally let out the breath and the tears he'd been holding in for days.

And then sobbing in Rebecca's arms, letting loose a lifetime of pent-up emotions:

That just gutted me because I know those words will be spoken by me someday and I will never, ever be ready for that day.

[Good Queen Jane]

Hugs to you, @Country girl. Thank you for sharing. You are very brave to post the above. I hope you have found peace. 

[CountryGirl]

All the discussion about Nicky's whereabouts and why didn't Jack call him, etc.?

IIRC, Jack didn't start receiving postcards from Nicky until the early 90s and didn't track down and confirm Nicky's whereabouts until 1992.

Marilyn's death occurred in 1988 so unless Jack had the ability to turn back time or speed it up to the Internet age, and then go back in time, there isn't any way he could have notified him. He had no idea where he was at that point.

As far as Nicky not being in the early flashbacks (sledding, etc.), he is a little more than 4 years younger (Jack was born in August of '44 and Nicky in October of '48), he would have been a baby as Jack looked all of 5, maybe 6, in the sledding scenes. I'm not sure what an baby or very young toddler would have added to the scenes.  

[sadie]

I’m over Jacks story being told over and over, there was no need for all his flashbacks two seasons ago. But I digress. 

But what bugged most was Jack opening ONE can of tomato soup and wanting us to believe it filled bowls for FIVE people. Sorry but things like that totally take me out of a show. 

[CountryGirl]

57 minutes ago, Good Queen Jane said:

Hugs to you, @Country girl. Thank you for sharing. You are very brave to post the above. I hope you have found peace. 

Thank you for your kind words. I have found much peace and love in life, although there are still moments when I struggle after something triggers me back to that dark time. But there were good times, too, which Jack's mother pointed out as well. Those memories and the life I have built certainly sustain me.

I don't know if I'd call myself brave but again, thank you. After years of silence, I have found it very freeing to be able to speak my truth and that hopefully, saying what can be uncomfortable at times for me to say and for others to hear will help other victims feel less alone and more able to share their truths.

Because I truly believe the more we share, the less power those memories and the ones who hurt us have over us.

[Aloeonatable]

29 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

Thank you for your kind words. I have found much peace and love in life, although there are still moments when I struggle after something triggers me back to that dark time. But there were good times, too, which Jack's mother pointed out as well. Those memories and the life I have built certainly sustain me.

I don't know if I'd call myself brave but again, thank you. After years of silence, I have found it very freeing to be able to speak my truth and that hopefully, saying what can be uncomfortable at times for me to say and for others to hear will help other victims feel less alone and more able to share their truths.

Because I truly believe the more we share, the less power those memories and the ones who hurt us have over us.

I wish I was as brave as you are. Your original post upthread was one of the best commentaries on this site that I have ever read. 

I, too, grew up in an abusive, alcoholic household. My mother enabled the abuse. I loved both my parents, but I swore when I left that house that I would never allow that in my new life. I am one of six children, five still alive, and we rarely get together. A lot of that is because we live geographically far apart, but I also don't talk to them on a regular basis, or email. I barely cried when my father died 27 years ago. When my mother, who I did keep in touch with, died 5 years ago I did cry, and I do miss her. 

This episode was beautiful in its honesty. I believe it is one of the very best episodes of the whole series. 

[CountryGirl]

Hugs to you @Aloeonatable and to anyone else for whom last night's episode trigged emotions and memories.

[Boo Boo]

On 1/26/2022 at 12:56 PM, Snapdragon said:

I feel they could have solved the whole "where's Nicky?" issue by simply adding in a line where Cousin Debbie says, "I called Nicky but he can't make it.  Claims he can't get off work, but I doubt that's the reason.  You know how he's been ever since Vietnam."  or something along those lines.  Jack lied to Rebecca and the kids about Nicky being dead because he didn't want him involved in his life but everyone else in the family (Jack's parents, extended family) knew that Nicky was still alive, he's just very different since coming back from war and doesn't interact much with people anymore.  

My problem with the whole "Saint Jack" thing is that while we the audience are shown and very aware of his flaws, everyone in present day (Rebecca, the Big Three, Miguel, Nicky) doesn't seem to be.  They always speak of Jack like he was this perfect being and it's become annoying.  In season one, Jack was presented as this amazing father/husband and everyone was all, "Cool.  What an outstanding guy."  Then in season two, they started to show his flaws and mistakes and I thought, "Man, what a neat idea for a show.  To have a character that at first is shown as the perfect husband and father and then to slowly show over several seasons how he was actually a deeply flawed individual but because of his premature death, his family has held him on that pedestal for so long and now you have them gradually come to the realization that while they loved him deeply, he wasn't the saint they've been making him out to be all these years."  But...no.  We basically had only the one scene where Kevin tries to bring up that Jack wasn't perfect in rehab therapy and Rebecca, Randall and Kate all shout him down about how Jack was amazing and how dare anyone say otherwise.  No real mention by the characters about Jack having any real flaws after that.  So yeah, I would like Jack's character a lot more if the other characters weren't still glossing over all his flaws.

RIGHT.

That's absolutely my issue with this show.

I also get annoyed by this magical love story between Jack and Rebecca. Seems like they only had a few blips and were hopelessly in love until the end.  I don't need a fairy tale romance; I'd like to see more realism about them as a couple beyond what, an episode where he had a jealous streak b/c she wanted to tour with some band, and then the drinking where he was forced to leave to get help.

 

[monakane]

This episode was very resonant to me.  My sister and I watched it together and we burst into tears when Jack felt the grief of the loss of his mother.  My mother died 30 years ago but I remember that feeling well.  It was beautifully written and acted.  Grief can overcome you at any time.  I'm tearing up again writing this.  Damn you This is Us!

[Lone Wolf]

Standard-issue tear jerking aside, I kind of see this as a Filler Episode.  It was entertaining enough if you're interested in Rebecca and Jack's (especially Jack's) backstory, but it didn't really advance the narrative of where and how the Pearsons are all going to end up.

I did like Marilyn's cat quite a bit and I learned that David Crosby has a second career playing her bereaved boyfriend so, to paraphrase Carl Spackler, it had that going for it.  Which was nice.    

[monakane]

2 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

I did like Marilyn's cat quite a bit and I learned that David Crosby has a second career playing her bereaved boyfriend so, to paraphrase Carl Spackler, it had that going for it.  Which was nice

Oh wow!  I didn't realize that was David Crosby.

[Lone Wolf]

2 minutes ago, monakane said:

Oh wow!  I didn't realize that was David Crosby.

It wasn't - I was trying to humorously comment on how much the actor looked and sounded like him.

"Cat Benatar" reminds me of a Great Dane that I met during a hike once.  Her person said that the dog's name was Taylor.  As in Taylor Dane.

 

[ams1001]

Mike was played by Jim Cody Williams.

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0930908/?ref_=ttfc_fc_cl_t22

I looked through his credits and he's one of those guys I've seen in stuff but couldn't tell you what.

[Kath94]

On 1/26/2022 at 9:19 AM, tennisgurl said:

We can all agree that Cat Benetar was the real star of the episode, right?

Definitely. =^.^=

[Boo Boo]

16 hours ago, Hedgehog2022 said:

St. Jack? How about St. Rebecca?!! She never does anything wrong, never makes mistakes and is perfect in every way. At least Jack has flaws that he acknowledges and makes mistakes from time to time. 

Um, she knew that Randall was searching for bio dad but didn't ever mention that she knew who he was and had chased him down when the kids were a baby.  She hid that from not only Randall, but also Jack.

Of course, it was forgiven all too quickly.

Then there's Becca being viewed as the bitch mom by her daughter and episodes where it appeared that young Kate was jealous of her own mother for apparently being skinny and pretty.

 

 

[Shermie]

Quote

There must be a big pile of unused skates somewhere behind the house. Because in order to have the right size for each child, she must have buying 3 new pairs what, every 2 months? Kids’ feet grow fast.

No. Our kids skated every year, as did me and my sibs and everyone I knew, and nobody got new skates more than once a year. Nobody. You got skates in October (often second-hand) and your parents made sure they were a little loose. You wore double socks at first so they would fit until spring. 

If Jack’s father was intentionally kept in the dark about Marilyn’s whereabouts to protect her, how did he know where to go for the funeral?

Quote

Re, the knitting, many feel like that about piano/violin playing too. It distracts them so much at how badly they are faking it, they miss the dialogue! 

Re: any skill or whatever as it’s done on tv compared to how it is in real life. You have to let it go or it will drive you crazy. I could write a 10-page screed on how tv gets small towns and farming wrong, but it’s easier for Hollywood writers to tap into their stereotypes. In movies they often give it more effort, but in a few seconds of a tv show, it’s probably easier for the director to say, “Here, you’re a grandma, knit something. Don’t know how? Just fake it, no one will know.” Because they don’t know the difference, they figure no one will.

[izabella]

St. Jack and St. Rebecca also ignored their son Kevin when he was drowning, and almost all his life in order to play favorites with Kate and Randall.  St. Rebecca never went to see Kevin's acting, neither Manny, nor plays, nor movies.  She actually picked her ass up and walked out on Kevin's performance so she could go see Kate sing on amateur night or whatever that was.

The show has shown their flaws, but the family worship of Jack continues, which is where the audience gets rubbed raw, I think.

[Hedgehog2022]

16 minutes ago, izabella said:

St. Jack and St. Rebecca also ignored their son Kevin when he was drowning, and almost all his life in order to play favorites with Kate and Randall.  St. Rebecca never went to see Kevin's acting, neither Manny, nor plays, nor movies.  She actually picked her ass up and walked out on Kevin's performance so she could go see Kate sing on amateur night or whatever that was.

The show has shown their flaws, but the family worship of Jack continues, which is where the audience gets rubbed raw, I think.

Well, the kids were not really privy to Jack's innermost demons so when he died they only remembered all the great things about him. 

[gonzosgirrl]

7 hours ago, Johnny Dollar said:

What was stopping him from doing that in the first place? There are other times in the week to talk to your mother than Sunday from 6:00 to 6:03 pm. I don’t think she would’ve minded if he asked her to move their calls to a time when the kids are asleep. 

There is no indication that the calls were always so short/abrupt. They made a point of saying they happened every Sunday, rain or shine. No matter the relationship, over the course of years there are bound to be duds, and those are the ones a son who is feeling grief and guilt is going to focus on, IMO. Does the fault that they had so many conversations over the years and Jack still didn't know about Mike or the cat rest solely with Jack? Did his mom have no obligation for her side of the conversation? ETA: and the kids knew enough about Grandma Marilyn to talk about her scratchy mittens and recognize that 'daddy's mama' died. They didn't seem like strangers.

Same with Nicky not being mentioned or notified by Jack. Did his mom think he was dead? Did Debbie? Did Mike? It is not all on Jack to have contacted him, especially if they were already estranged - and his mother and presumably Debbie must have known that. It's easy to pile on Jack, but he is the one who got his mother out, and protected little Nicky. If he deserves condemnation for how the relationships faltered later in life, he also deserves credit for the good he did.

Edited January 27, 2022 by gonzosgirrl