S01.E06: For All Time. Always.

[JustHereForFood]

58 minutes ago, Abra said:

Sophie has been outspoken from the beginning about her goal to take down the TVA/whoever is behind it. Just because it didn't align with what Loki wanted in that moment doesn't make what she did a betrayal. You could see her motives from space, and the two whole days of gross selfcesty relationship building with Loki were not going to deter her from that or be enough to heal her trauma.

This! I didn't think she betrayed Loki so I am surprised to see that many see it that way. Did she ever promise him something? I guess she could wait and they could decide what to do together, but I don't really see her deciding for herself in that moment as a betrayal. YMMV of course.

Can anyone please tell me what accent did Miss Minutes have? There aren't many English accents that I don't like, but this one specifically annoys me and I can't identify it.

[AimingforYoko]

2 minutes ago, JustHereForFood said:

Can anyone please tell me what accent did Miss Minutes have? There aren't many English accents that I don't like, but this one specifically annoys me and I can't identify it.

It's not a British accent, it's Southern U.S.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

3 minutes ago, JustHereForFood said:

Can anyone please tell me what accent did Miss Minutes have? There aren't many English accents that I don't like, but this one specifically annoys me and I can't identify it.

The voice actress, Tara Strong, is from Canada, specifically Toronto. She has a shitload of credits on IMDB, nothing I'm familiar with, but I'm sure she doesn't always sound like that, since she's also voiced Batgirl, Harley Quinn and Barbara Gordon. Someone in an earlier episode thread said she sounded like one of the Hee Haw Honeys from that old variety show, which is very accurate.

[Morrigan2575]

I'm assuming that was Kang or a Kang Variant...someone mentioned and older Kang called Immortus. 

I actually really liked this episode. This might be the first D+ Marvel series that stuck the landing. I felt the other 2 shows were a let down in the season finale. I know this was a lot for talking but, it was good and exciting and Jonathan Majors acted the shit out of that brief role. He was great in Lovecraft Country, nice to see him again. Hopefully we'll get multiple Kangs next season.

I felt bad for Loki, not only did he lose Sylvie but, he lost Mobius as well. 

[JustHereForFood]

16 minutes ago, AimingforYoko said:

It's not a British accent, it's Southern U.S.

 

13 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

The voice actress, Tara Strong, is from Canada, specifically Toronto. She has a shitload of credits on IMDB, nothing I'm familiar with, but I'm sure she doesn't always sound like that, since she's also voiced Batgirl, Harley Quinn and Barbara Gordon. Someone in an earlier episode thread said she sounded like one of the Hee Haw Honeys from that old variety show, which is very accurate.

Thanks.

[Macbeth]

When your only option is 2 Lokis running things - you are shit out of luck.

The Gods of Mischief cannot be in charge of one timeline.  OG Loki had a lot of personal growth, but he bores easily.  Eventually he would abuse the power just to play a trick on Thor. Tos start with.

 

[magdalene]

After reflecting about the finale all day today I think this is my least favorite episode of the season.  (Episode 5 remains my favorite).  I see the comic book people are giddy with delight but I have always watched these Marvel movies and shows without knowing zilch about the comics and as such a viewer I feel alienated and exasperated by Kang, not teased or tantalized.  Mostly the character made my eyes roll.

The episode also accomplished that I am off the Loki/Sylvie train. I actively dislike her now.  If you can't give somebody  you have feelings for a couple of minutes to think a bit before you go off half cocked there is no chance for you.

Boy, Kid Loki sure had it right in the previous episode: as soon as a Loki tries to better themselves the universe finds a way to bring them down.

[jacehan]

I don't think that there's necessarily multiple TVAs. It's more like the TVA restarted, because the multiverse war restarted but the new HWR remains hasn't won it yet. (And maybe now he won't, since there's the one key difference of Loki knowing what happened (kinda) in the last one. This makes the ending feel kinda Dark Tower-y.)

[Cobalt Stargazer]

20 minutes ago, magdalene said:

The episode also accomplished that I am off the Loki/Sylvie train. I actively dislike her now.  If you can't give somebody  you have feelings for a couple of minutes to think a bit before you go off half cocked there is no chance for you.

Thor would disagree with you. In the middle of the New York fight, he begged Loki to stop the insanity and help him and the Avengers fight the Chitauri, and Loki responded by stabbing him and saying, "There is no stopping this. There is only...the war."
 
The only difference between what Sylvie did here and what Loki did in New York is that outside of fanfiction, Loki never had a crush on his brother. Resentment, dislike, pissiness, etc, yes, but never a crush. It's really kind of amusing how many people, not just here but elsewhere are like, "J'accuse!" as if before this Loki wouldn't have done the exact same thing every day of the week. And twice on Sunday. Yes, she did something she probably shouldn't have. Yes, he looked genuinely devastated, to the point that even I felt bad for him. But I don't know why everyone is so shocked. She is still a Loki, and I'd argue she's much more damaged than he's ever been. A snuggle under a not so comfortable blanket isn't going to fix that.

[benteen]

Liked the series but was disappointed by the finale.  This was Marvel setting up the future at the  expense of the present (ie the Loki finale).

This episode was long and drawn out and with a second season guaranteed, they didn't feel the need to wrap up things in a more satisfactory manner.

The biggest disappointment might be the bizarre decision to almost completely sideline Mobius for the finale.  This was likely done in a DESPERATE attempt to prop up the Loki and Sylvie relationship as the centerpiece of this story.  Sorry, writers. Sylvie is nowhere near as interesting as Mobius.  The Hiddleston and Wilson interaction was the very best thing about this series and the writers decided to disregard this in favor of Loki and Sylvie.  Inexcusable.  I understand why they wanted to focus on this relationship but you go with your best team for the finale and that's Loki and Mobius. 

While I was happy to see Kang introduced, I wasn't a fan of Jonathan Majors characterization.  It was fine at times but I've seen enough of the wise-cracking villains.  Still, I think Majors will be a good Kang.

Loki and Sylvie's fight was good at the end and the new direction is an exciting one for the MCU.  They finally set up things and set them up well.  I just wish they didn't sacrifice a good ending for this season finale to get there.

That being said I am happy that this show is getting a second season.

 

Edited July 15, 2021 by benteen

[Minneapple]

22 minutes ago, benteen said:

Liked the series but was disappointed by the finale.  This was Marvel setting up the future at the  expense of the present (ie the Loki finale).

This has pretty much been the pattern for these shows so far. It's disappointing. I get that they want to save the Big Developments for the Big Moneymaking Movies, but let the shows stand on their own merits.

This particular episode was mostly the Kang variant(?) talking. Like a lot. Exposition to set up the multiverse. And Sylvie's "betrayal" was hollow because let's be real, Sylvie/Loki rivaled the best of Disney's old-school "we met and fell in love after a dance" relationships.

I will say there were some nice touches. I actually like the Mobius/Ravonna friendship a lot, and to me Ravonna is one of the most interesting characters on the show. I hope she's back for season two.

[Kel Varnsen]

This was interesting. It sure felt more like a mid season break than a finale.

11 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

I thought he was more Immortus than Kang. Kang is the younger version who's more dangerous.

I definitely thought Immortus (which I actually called last week!). He is older, he lives at the end of time, wants to delete timelines he doesn't like and he said he was once called a conqueror. I am surprised he didn't say he was once called Pharoah. 

11 hours ago, Lassus said:

Also, I'm not so convinced Loki was MEANT to be returned to the wrong timeline as much as it's just where he ended up due to the insanity of what had just happened.

The whole alternate TVA is interesting since it exists outside of time how can it have a timeline. They kept showing those windows showing how big the TVA was and I was expecting a reveal that Loki ended up in a different building with a different Mobius.

Also I can't believe I never noticed that in the end credits when they name the music supervisor they show a metronome, when they show the casting director it is a bunch of pictures of Loki and for the editor it is film going through a time projector.

[SnarkShark]

17 hours ago, paigow said:

Planet Of The Apes [Mark Wahlberg version] ending... Looks like Sylvie sent Loki to the wrong branch

I'm not so sure of that. But maybe. 

Two possibilities exist:

A.) The TVA was always outside of time, ergo unaffected by the timeline 

B.) The TVA is part of a timeline. 

If it's the later, then no other TVA existed, simply because no timeline got past the line to become permanent.  Now other TVAs exist.  So maybe he indeed went to another branch.  The theory weakness?  He was pushed through that door before the other timelines firmed up. 

Alternately, if the TVA is outside of time, maybe what changed came from the outside, but it's still the one and only. Either memories got wiped, or with one Kang gone, another was able to travel back to the root of the TVA to change everything about it.  The change in the statue, a big endeavour, supports that idea. 

[Captain Carrot]

22 minutes ago, SnarkShark said:

Alternately, if the TVA is outside of time, maybe what changed came from the outside, but it's still the one and only. Either memories got wiped, or with one Kang gone, another was able to travel back to the root of the TVA to change everything about it.  The change in the statue, a big endeavour, supports that idea. 

3rd (unlikely possibility) Is it possible that the TVA exists in a space outside of all universes, but they all connect to it with their own variants? Could there be multiple versions of the same people running around? (It wouldn't have been an issue with one time line, but would be an issue now). Reason it makes sense, our Mobius and B-15 were in a control room, but Loki found them in the Library. Reason it doesn't make sense, wouldn't the versions Loki met want to confirm he belonged to 'their' TVA?

[Xantar]

Call me old fashioned, but I like my stories to tell a story. Not just to act as setup for future stories.

[paigow]

42 minutes ago, SnarkShark said:

Alternately, if the TVA is outside of time, maybe what changed came from the outside, but it's still the one and only. Either memories got wiped, or with one Kang gone, another was able to travel back to the root of the TVA to change everything about it.  The change in the statue, a big endeavour, supports that idea. 

Then "tomorrow", a different Kang variant [Kangaroo Kang perhaps] could change the TVA again... literally ad infinitum

[Kel Varnsen]

52 minutes ago, Captain Carrot said:

3rd (unlikely possibility) Is it possible that the TVA exists in a space outside of all universes, but they all connect to it with their own variants? Could there be multiple versions of the same people running around?

That is kind of what I thought. The TVA as a space looks huge, so it seems weird that Loki only deals with just a small handful of people. It also appeared that the room numbers on the windows when Loki walked past the library were different. Maybe he is just in a different building. Like if there is more than 1 Loki variant why can't their be more than on Mobius variant?

Edited July 15, 2021 by Kel Varnsen

[TrininisaScorp]

Ok.  Wow.  I know I was in for something once the title credits started up...that was a lot to take in, and got me right away.  Marvel, you are putting me through all the things!  

All in all, I liked it a lot.  This is the first MCU D+ show to get the landing pretty right, IMO.  I walked away feeling energized and crazy excited for what was and what is to come.  My love for Hiddleston is back to Lokimania time period levels (LOL).  Plus, I really appreciated the show's POV from the female gaze.  The broad shots in the past of Loki showing torso and scenery gave away to tight shots of the faces and the emotional reckoning of the characters. Small things - the clothes the women wear, and hair tying back, felt so good to not be titillating, but functional and honest. Their own agencies being a part of their own stories and not just as a casual attachment to a man.  And, the most beautiful shots of long, lean lines went to Tom himself. (I swear to God, I have never stared at a man's legs this much in my life...what is happening?!)

Lovecraft Country made me a huge fan of that entire cast, so I was already on Jonathan Majors's side before a word came out of his mouth.  I personally thought it was incredibly clever to stack He Who Remains as a variant of Kang the Conqueror.  I loved JMs isolated, deranged take on He Who Remains.  So many things...him eating and talking, his very stream of consciousness style of talking all speak to someone who has been totally alone for a very, very long time.  Also, in his crazy, were moments of honest truth...I agreed with his assessment, at times, of the situation. It was a lot of exposition, but the choices were clear...join him and keep the sacred timeline but be under the thumb of 1 soul, or destroy him and let the universe be free, but fall into multiverse war with variants that are bigger bads.  I think the moment of branching began when Sylvie internally would never consider the proposal that Kang has for them.  And our Loki's growth and understanding, and attempt at empathy with Sylvie was truly a lot of movement the character.  Jonathan Majors was the standout in his utter cagey, creepy, terrifying way.  

In the other action, I was glad to see Mobius back at it, and wonder what Ravonna is playing at. I wish 15 was in action more, but the lines she had were so very impactful. 

Hiddleston, of course, was fire.  Loki's sadness that Sylvie cannot trust and he cannot be trusted was palpable, and the feeling of betrayal (even if I don't think that is what she was doing...she just wanted him out of there so she could kill He Who Remains) when he sat alone in the TVA broke my heart (damn his and his earnest, expressive eyes).  I was shocked SHOCKED when Mobius had no idea who he was.  The timelines had already begun to branch, so Sylvie would have had no idea that she was sending him to a different TVA timeline (this is my take).  One where Kang the Conqueror is the leader of the TVA.  Man, that was one hell of a moment!!  Tom's expression of shock and awe was great.  

Also, can ppl stop saying that Loki is just kinda there for the greatest of the universe to get past?!  First, he was only there to suffer to make others great.  Now he's the flea on the back of a dragon who is along for the ride.   Can we give this man some agency in S2?  Damn!  This is Loki, and he is a charming motherfucker. 

My main criticism is that I wanted to learn more about the guy that show is named after.  I'm impressed how well the creators made this work to pull in an entire MCU phase, but maybe a bit more in episodes 2 and 3 about Loki himself...his Jotun roots, the issues with his family, he was probably quite hurt by Thanos, etc.  The issue for me was always going to be that 2012 Loki didn't live some of the biggest moments of Loki Prime's life...losing his mother, meeting Hela, having some acceptance from Odin, fighting with Thor for Asgard.  These are things that partly defined a shift in Loki.  I wanted more there b/c I really like this character, and wanted to see him work thru and fight against (that is something that Wandavision did VERY well with Wanda and her grief).  Throwing the larger "variant who is bad = a Loki that is a lady" + "destroy who is behind the TVA" undercut Loki's own journey outside of some very key meta references.  If they did 7 or 8 episodes, I think they could have sprinkled more.  And in retrospect, as much as I loved Lamentis, I wish we spent our time a little more wisely b/c that train scene continues to be the strongest development in the series, along with his time with Mobius in episode 4.  And episode 5 was a huge favorite, but I wished we spent more time on Loki himself making some determinations vs. BIG PLOT THINGS.  Tom Hiddleston is more than up to the challenge of Loki working his pain and anger in a meaningful way, and I'm sad I didn't get to see more of that. 

Other than that, the handling of Sylvie continues to give me heartburn.  She's played so well by Sophia De Martino. I get Slyvie...she is thousands of years old and the life she had where she was happy was taken from her and destroyed, and she was made a brawling fugitive by the TVA.  If the narrative stayed there and added in an element of the Lokis learning from each other, learning to trust, and have a sense of friendship, I would have been happier.  The romantic element and the kiss (was it legit...was it a ploy...was it both) felt jarring and I don't honestly buy the ship.  Actively disagreeing as friends and having a fight where they battle with swords and words, and then she sends him back to the TVA would have worked better for me.  These two have known each other for 3 days, and are broken souls...love that lasts, that matters, IMO, takes more.  Maybe it is because I've been wifed up for a long time, I just don't understand the idea of their supposed tru wuv causing the nexxus.  Nothing about them besides the actors having fab chemistry is selling the romance for me, and I'm annoyed because for me, it diminishes both of these excellent characters when it should be strengthening them. 

I am joyous, however, that this isn't the end of the series. Maybe we'll get more Loki character development in the second season b/c I'll be disappointed if I don't.  As a Marvel fan, I cannot wait to see the HUGE and enduring impact this has on phase 4 and 5 because, hot damn!  I can't wait for What If and for the upcoming films. 

Edited July 15, 2021 by TrininisaScorp

[pezgirl7]

18 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

That is kind of what I thought. The TVA as a space looks huge, so it seems weird that Loki only deals with just a small handful of people. It also appeared that the room numbers on the windows when Loki walked past the library were different. Maybe he is just in a different building. Like if there is more than 1 Loki variant why can't their be more than on Mobius variant?

That's what I thought at first. That Loki was just in another section of the TVA that had different variants, but then I saw the statue of Kang. I think the TVA exists out of time but is still part of a timeline. So I think once the sacred timeline started branching, the branches could form at any point in the timeline. Therefore he's in a branch that is close to the one from the sacred timeline, but still different, and ruled by a Kang that's egotistical enough to show his true likeness to the TVA workers.

This episode was a little one note for me. My favorite parts were the fight scenes with Loki and Sylvie. I was really worried she was going to stab him after kissing him, so I was glad she just pushed him through a time door! Tom really got to show off the teary-eyed expression he does so well. He even had tears in his eyes when Miss Minutes was tempting him. I hope he wins an Emmy next year! 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

3 hours ago, benteen said:

The biggest disappointment might be the bizarre decision to almost completely sideline Mobius for the finale.  This was likely done in a DESPERATE attempt to prop up the Loki and Sylvie relationship as the centerpiece of this story.  Sorry, writers. Sylvie is nowhere near as interesting as Mobius.  The Hiddleston and Wilson interaction was the very best thing about this series and the writers decided to disregard this in favor of Loki and Sylvie.  Inexcusable.  I understand why they wanted to focus on this relationship but you go with your best team for the finale and that's Loki and Mobius.

"The MCU needs more female characters!"

".......No, not like that."

..........

[KimberStormer]

Well I thought this was garbage.  Building up to the big villain who is....some random guy I don't have any reason to care about played by the biggest ham sandwich I've seen outside of a local theater production.  Endlessly blathering on about shit I don't care about while "ACTING" or something, sitting on the back of the chair! eating an apple!!  Wow, Stage Business!

Sylvie never grows from her boring Quest for Revenge.  All the stuff Tom Hiddleston Loki was suggesting, that she was the one Loki who wasn't a perpetual fuck-up who never grows, thrown in the trash.  And all the other sort of foreshadowing/set-ups go nowhere -- the other agent who Ravonna knows, who left a coffee stain or whatever it was, which they called back to, but I guess that's just one more "cliffhanger" for next season or seven movies from now.  Blech.  I didn't know it was that kind of show.  I wouldn't have watched if I had.

[lynxfx]

This finale was a lot like the "Architect" scene in The Matrix Reloaded. Almost exact when you break it down including the last bit of freewill...your two choices. Loki just stretched it to 40 minutes. 

I still liked it overall. This basically setup the "Thanos" for rest of phase 4, if not more. Being that there are infinite variants, I have a feeling each movie will have a different version of Kane to deal with. That has to be exciting for an actor.

Story wise I think we are going to have 2 very different threads. One being the magic/cosmic characters dealing with the multiverse, the other being the down to earth everyday hero stuff. The biggest question will be how accessible the storylines will be for the average movie goer if they haven't watched everything. 

Back to the episode, the citadel looked like it was blown up and repaired with gold. Maybe that will be a callback. Also, at the beginning there were two back holes. The one we came out of had the first 3 phases sound bites, and we went into the second one which played Vision's line about love. Not sure if it is anything but odd to show two black holes without it meaning something. Or maybe as simple as showing a multiverse.

I've liked all 3 Disney + series. Phsse 4 is going to be a rocket ship with the speed we see new content compared to Phase 1.

[Zuleikha]

I join the general feeling of this felt like a mid-season cliffhanger and not a season finale. I think it did what it tried to do well, but I wish it had tried to do something different. I was very afraid that we would spend a lot of time with a character who was meaningful to comic book fans and meaningless to the rest of us, and that's exactly what happened.

I don't blame Sylvie because I don't think there was ever a possibility in which she would have been willing to take over the TVA. She suffered too much from being pruned. She would never have been willing to do it to other people. Also, as people observed last week, Lokis are pro-chaos/anti-order. The risk of a chaotic multiverse isn't really a negative for a typical Loki. 

However, I'm actually still not convinced Sylvie IS a Loki. This is probably me overthinking things, but the show made such a point of there not being other female Loki variants and then she had her blunt "I'm not you" line. Also, of course, her name. I'm 90% sure she's a Loki, and 10% still waiting for that shoe to drop in s2. If she is a Loki variant as advertised, I want more of her backstory and to finally know her Nexus event. It's not satisfying to feel like we know so little about her. Even her ultimate motivations... was this more about vengeance on someone she saw as causing her to suffer or about freeing the universe from the tyranny of the TVA? 

I didn't care about Renslayer enough to care about any of her plot or even her interactions with Mobius. I would rather have seen Mobius on a jet ski. 

I agree that the show would have benefited from more episodes to build Loki's character growth and Loki/Sylvie and maybe even Renslayer/Mobius/TVA stuff. The individual stuff was all good, but it also felt rushed to me, particularly Loki/Sylvie. Lamentis focused a lot on ways in which they were different, but I think we needed to see more of the way they were the same in order to buy the speed of the relationship. I think Lamentis even being a 2 parter with more trickery/deception/lack of trust/finally trust would have helped. 

[arc]

3 hours ago, TrininisaScorp said:

I get Slyvie...she is thousands of years old

She could be, or she could just be like thirty. It’s impossible to tell, between her superhuman longevity and her particular personal history of jumping across time to hide from the TVA rather than living linearly.

hey, it just hit me that Ravonna’s prime version was seen in 2018, which is a key year in MCU history as that’s the year of the Snap.

[Macbeth]

I really loved the Sylvie and Loki dynamics.  Their fight was epic.  Brilliantly choreographed.

I also love Mobius and Loki and we are back at step one for their relationship next season.

For me the TVA is just a deus ex machina - an opportunity to reset history so that characters who have died - can come back.  Maybe with different actors. Also if there ever was a variant - Lebowski Thor is it.  

For me the Lokis taking over the TVA or killing Majors character was just using the Lokis as the fall guys - just as Thanos used Loki in that role in Avengers.  It was never supposed to work.  Majors character was tired and just wanted to blow things up.  

And I thought Majors was brilliant in his role.  Of course the Timekeeper would be batshit crazy.

Edited July 15, 2021 by Macbeth

[paigow]

4 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

I also love Mobius and Loki and we are back at step one for their relationship next season.

"This is not the Mobius you are looking for"

Loki will spend Season 2 jumping through branches to find "his" Mobius... Currently, he is in a universe where Loki ended up a nobody... much like "Do Over" Picard ended up a lowly science office in Tapestry.TNG

[Biggie B]

11 hours ago, magdalene said:

After reflecting about the finale all day today I think this is my least favorite episode of the season.  (Episode 5 remains my favorite).  I see the comic book people are giddy with delight but I have always watched these Marvel movies and shows without knowing zilch about the comics and as such a viewer I feel alienated and exasperated by Kang, not teased or tantalized.  Mostly the character made my eyes roll.

The episode also accomplished that I am off the Loki/Sylvie train. I actively dislike her now.  If you can't give somebody  you have feelings for a couple of minutes to think a bit before you go off half cocked there is no chance for you.

Completely agree with this. I was utterly bored throughout this entire episode. What a complete let-down after last week.  I do not like Sylvie at all, haven't since she was first introduced. Overall, this was a dull, uninspiring episode, and I'm glad that there's a second season, because to end the show completely with this episode would have been really bad.

[skipnjump]

I admit that this episode wasn't my favorite of the series either.  It didn't really add up to anything but to encourage me to watch the next season. I wasn't a fan of the dark setting while Loki and Sylvie watched Kang monologue.  The Kang actor was interesting, but to me, that entire scene just was kind of boring.  Two characters sitting there watching another chew scenery.  I also admit to not being a fan of the Loki/Sylvie "romance"  Why couldn't they just learn from each other without throwing in romance?  Oh well, I know that I will watch the next season to see if there is any kind of conclusion. 

[Macbeth]

16 hours ago, paigow said:

"This is not the Mobius you are looking for"

Loki will spend Season 2 jumping through branches to find "his" Mobius... Currently, he is in a universe where Loki ended up a nobody... much like "Do Over" Picard ended up a lowly science office in Tapestry.TNG

Honestly - the amount of "I don't give a crap" about the changing of the timelines is epic at this point.  If Loki is just going to spend S2 looking for Mobius - I won't be watching S3.

I quit Heroes when they kept changing reality. 

Edit:

Sorry for my harshness @paigow.  

Edited July 16, 2021 by Macbeth

[Sakura12]

I think this proved that Slyvie is a Loki. Loki's have a one track mind when it comes to their end goals. Thor tried all the time to get Loki to stop and he wouldn't. It took years of losing for him to finally help Thor. The only difference with Slyvie and the other Loki's is her end goal isn't to be the leader.

I wouldn't expect Slyvie to change her whole life's work just because she's known Loki for a few days. We've seen on this show Loki's learn their lessons very slowly. Lol. Our Loki also had the advantage of seeing how his life ended in the TVA's timeline. Slyvie's still a Loki without that growth. Although she didn't stab him, like Loki's do. She sent him back to TVA so he couldn't stop her, so that could still mean she cares. Maybe she was trying to send him back to Mobius, she didn't know she changed the timeline. 

[IWantCandy71]

On 7/14/2021 at 2:27 PM, Cthulhudrew said:

Agreed. It may also be notable He Who Remains' time thingamawhozitz was already preprogrammed based on his knowledge up to the crisis point. So he may have been lying about not seeing everything, or he may have been telling the truth, but either way it wouldn't surprise me if he'd programmed the device to send whomever used it to a particular place and time, and it is all still part of his mad plan.

Yes, you could be right. Either way, I think Loki's fate of being left alone again was sealed when he and Mobius parted ways. Now, if Loki would just remember that time machines exist in this universe. He needs to go back to the void prior to that moment and keep Mobius with him.

Of course, he could go back further and avoid being pruned in the first place. But then he would have never made his first friend.

11 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

I think this proved that Slyvie is a Loki. Loki's have a one track mind when it comes to their end goals. Thor tried all the time to get Loki to stop and he wouldn't. It took years of losing for him to finally help Thor. The only difference with Slyvie and the other Loki's is her end goal isn't to be the leader.

I wouldn't expect Slyvie to change her whole life's work just because she's known Loki for a few days. We've seen on this show Loki's learn their lessons very slowly. Lol. Our Loki also had the advantage of seeing how his life ended in the TVA's timeline. Slyvie's still a Loki without that growth. Although she didn't stab him, like Loki's do. She sent him back to TVA so he couldn't stop her, so that could still mean she cares. Maybe she was trying to send him back to Mobius, she didn't know she changed the timeline. 

I think she knew it would end in chaos, and at that moment, she didn't care about the outcome. And right after she believes Mobius called her his favorite. Knowing she might be taking Loki's only support.

She may be a Loki, but she's a far more damaged one, and she doesn't need to hinder our Loki's growth.

[Macbeth]

1 minute ago, IWantCandy71 said:

I think she knew it would end in chaos, and at that moment, she didn't care about the outcome. And right after she believes Mobius called her his favorite. Knowing she might be taking Loki's only support.

She may be a Loki, but she's a far more damaged one, and she doesn't need to hinder our Loki's growth.

I have sympathy for Sylvie though.  More than I have for Loki.  For me Loki has to show growth for me to get inveted and Tom is a really good actor.  But I never forgave Loki for actions he instigated that ended in Frigga's death.

 Sylvie didn't have the years and years of Frigga's loving care that Loki had.  She was just a child when she got yanked - and she has been running all of her life.  Sylvie and the One Who Remains are both exhausted and wanted it to just end.  So that's what happened.

I think the only surprise for OWR was that the Lokis didn't want to kill each other.  Loki outright refused and Sylvie pushed him through the time portal to avoid killing him.

[tv echo]

Some of Loki writer Eric Martin's behind-the-scenes tweets about this episode...

FYI (go to article link to see screenshot pics for each of the items listed below)...

"Loki" Has Some Mind-Blowing Details In The Season 1 Finale, And Here Are 33 That I Spotted
By Nora Dominick   Jul. 14, 2021
https://www.buzzfeed.com/noradominick/loki-episode-6-easter-eggs-details

1. Okay, so this episode opens with an ABSOLUTE attack, aka it starts with Peggy and Steve's song, "It's Been a Long, Long Time," which we've heard throughout the MCU.
2. During the Marvel Studios opening, we hear some iconic lines from other MCU movies and TV shows. Like, Sam's excitement over Scott, Hope talking about punching, T'Challa yelling "Wakanda forever," and Natasha's iconic "put you on hold" line.
3. And we hear Peter's dance-off line, Thor yelling about his work friend, 2012 and 2023 Steve talking, and Captain Marvel's catchphrase.
4. Also we hear Loki's "we have a Hulk" line, Korg talking about jumping on a spaceship, Classic Loki shouting "Glorious purpose," Vision telling Wanda about grief, and Sylvie asking Loki to open his eyes.
5. Among the MCU lines, we can hear some famous quotes from real people too, like philosopher Alan Watts, Neil Armstrong, Greta Thunberg, Malala Yousafzai, Nelson Mandela, former Liberian President Ellen Johnson Sirleaf, and Maya Angelou.
6. Also, if you pause quickly while hearing Neil Armstrong's quote, you can see what looks like the Quinjet that Natasha, Clint, and the others traveled to space in during Avengers: Endgame.
7. The instrumental song that plays when we see the Loki title cards this week is different from what we've heard in previous episodes.
8. While Loki and Sylvie walk up the steps, you can see two hourglasses flanking the door.
9. Miss Minutes (creepily) welcomes Loki and Sylvie to this place beyond The Void and calls it "the Citadel at the End of Time," which is taken directly from the comics. It first appeared in Thor Issue #245 when Thor, Jane, and other Asgardians travel there.
10. In that same Thor comic, Jane also talks to He Who Remains — that's who Miss Minutes says lives in the Citadel — and reveals what the Time Twisters really do. In the comics, the Time Twisters were a trio of beings created by the TVA. Sound a little familiar?
11. In the comics, Kang does have a Citadel similar to this one too. I mentioned it last week, but it's called Chronopolis and it's located on the outskirts of time.
12. Miss Minutes tries to entice Loki by mentioning a few of his failed plans that he could be successful at with the help of He Who Remains. Not only does she mention the Battle of New York from The Avengers, but she also brings up Loki becoming the King of Asgard, which he tried to accomplish in Thor.
13. Also, Miss Minutes says that Loki could kill Thanos and take the Infinity Gauntlet for himself, which was most likely his plan if the Battle of New York was a success.
14. As Loki and Sylvie travel deeper into the Citadel, the camera tilts as they walk down the hallway. This camera move was also used a lot in Doctor Strange, when Stephen and Mordo fought Kaecilius.
15. You can spot the statues of three people, plus one that is broken. These represent the three Time-Keepers we know about, and one that we haven't seen. In the comics, He Who Remains actually created four Time-Keepers, but one of them, the Oracle of Siwa, was exiled.
16. Okay, obviously not a hidden detail, but Jonathan Majors has OFFICIALLY joined the MCU as He Who Remains/Kang. It sounds like two comic characters are being combined for this part, and it's so perfect. In the comics, Kang actually learns how to conquer timelines by studying He Who Remains.
17. In case you're like, "But Nora, tell me more about Kang," here you go. In the comics, Kang the Conqueror is as fearsome as Thanos. He's basically made up of dozens of identities from various timelines, just like what is explained in this episode.
18. He Who Remains' outfit is very similar to what various Kang variants wear in the comic books — purple is his signature color, and Immortus, a Kang Variant from the comics, has a similar gold symbol on his chest.
19. We finally know that the pen Mobius kept using in Ravonna's office in Episode 2 and in Episode 4 is related to a Ravonna Variant in 2018.
20. You can spot a portrait of Franklin D. Roosevelt hanging on the wall in the school hallway, which corresponds to the fact that the pen reads "Franklin D. Roosevelt High School."
21. Also, dear good lord, this Ravonna Variant works in Ohio, and I am sorry but after Black Widow, I cry every single time I hear Ohio because of where Natasha, Yelena, Melina, and Alexei lived.
22. Behind Hunter B-15, you can spot Ravonna's real name on her diploma from Ohio State University. So, Ravonna's name is actually Rebecca Tourminet, which is the name Ravonna used in the comics while trying to distance herself from Kang.
23. When He Who Remains shows Loki and Sylvie all of their printed dialogue, you can see that He Who Remains' lines say "Me," while Loki's lines list his Variant identification number "L1130."
24. When Ravonna is about to prune Mobius, the shot is very reminiscent of when Loki looks up at the Avengers in The Avengers.
25. He Who Remains tells Sylvie and Loki that he's been "dubbed many names," and this is similar to Kang in the comics. Most notably, he's Kang the Conqueror, but he does go by other names.
26. He Who Remains tells a story about how his Variants helped each other before they started a multiversal war. In the comics, the Council of Kangs is a group made up of Kangs who look to eliminate Kangs that diverge from the path.
27. He Who Remains tries to entice Loki and Sylvie to take over pruning the timeline, and throughout the episode he's eating an apple. It's hard not to make the Biblical symbolism comparison, aka Adam, Eve, the apple, and the snake.
28. Also, in Doctor Strange, when Stephen first uses the Eye of Agamotto, he practices on an apple, and since this episode is REALLY going to influence Doctor Strange 2 — more on that soon — I had to bring it up.
29. Okay, OKAY, it's FINE. We've officially entered the multiverse in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, and this is going to DIRECTLY IMPACT Spider-Man: No Way Home AND Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness, AND I'M SORRY I CAN'T STOP TYPING IN ALL CAPS.
30. Not only do we see the sacred timeline splitting, but with Sylvie killing He Who Remains — ugh, Sylvie WHY — we're going to get more of his Variants, which means, I'm assuming, Jonathan Majors will be an evil He Who Remains Variant in Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quantumania.
31. When Loki returns to the TVA, Mobius and Hunter B-15 don't know who he is, and I'm assuming that Loki is now on a different timeline where he never met Mobius.
32. The statue of He Who Remains that Loki sees at the very end of the episode looks just like Kang's comic book look. So, yes, you can hear me yelling.
33. And finally, not a real hidden detail, but in case you left before the end of the credits, we ARE getting Loki Season 2.

 

Edited July 15, 2021 by tv echo

[IWantCandy71]

I thinknk (or rather hope) that there is only one TVA. The purpose of the TVA is to keep "order".

Having multiple TVA's would upset that. But then, everything is supposed to be upended chaos now, so.

[tv echo]

In this Marvel.com interview, Tom Hiddleston talked about what Loki was feeling and thinking at the end of this episode when he's betrayed by Sylvie and returned to the TVA Time Theater...

Quote

“It crushes his soul,” Hiddleston says, reflecting on Sylvie’s betrayal at the 11th hour. “For perhaps the first time, one of the only times in his life, he was brave and he lost. He made a brave choice and it didn't work. The confusion is unprecedented and it shatters him internally. He doesn't even know how to process what he's feeling. This is why it registers as a shock [for him]. But then he becomes determined that there is still something he can do. Perhaps he can get to Mobius and Hunter B-15, and enlist their support.”

It’s a good plan that quickly goes sideways. No sooner does he reach Mobius and Hunter B-15, “He realizes that in the time he's been sitting on that step, something has changed.”

“Something has changed reality, including the reality of the TVA,” Hiddleston says. “The three statues of the Time Keepers are no more. In their place is a statue of Kang. And that his friend Mobius doesn't recognize him and doesn't know who he is. His destabilization in that moment is profound.”

 

Edited July 15, 2021 by tv echo

[KimberStormer]

See, one example of my complaint is, even the people who make the show are calling this guy "Kang" but they deliberately refused to say his name in the show.  (It felt like an unnecessary tease leading up to the inevitable reveal that he was another Loki, which would have been perfectly in keeping with the rest of the show -- remember how much they emphasized in the first episode how the TVA does for the universe what Loki wanted to do for Earth/Asgard -- but nope!)  If you don't read comic books not only do you have no way to know who he is or why anyone would care, but you can't even know what the hell the cast and crew are talking about in the press!

[Enigma X]

I like Loki and Mobius a lot. They made me enjoy the show. Sylvie was ok for me.

I feel that if they wanted to introduce (pre-)Kang in this finale, it would have been better to have introduced someone he was using as a puppet as the big bad and revealed Jonathan Majors' character in a mid-credit scene to be the real bad guy. In fact, I would have liked a Loki that took on Sylvie's appearance to have been the puppet big bad (the audience would not have seen that coming) and then the mid-credit scene would have left those who know Kang with another surprise and those who don't in wonderment. That is just me though and maybe my idea sucks to many too.

[tennisgurl]

6 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

I think this proved that Slyvie is a Loki. Loki's have a one track mind when it comes to their end goals. Thor tried all the time to get Loki to stop and he wouldn't. It took years of losing for him to finally help Thor. The only difference with Slyvie and the other Loki's is her end goal isn't to be the leader.

 

Ironically, Sylvie ended up following the pattern of all Loki's that "our" Loki wants to break. Being unable to meaningfully change and only existing to facilitate change in other people. In this case, she allowed Loki to change and put other people before himself, while she was unable to change her goal, no matter what the consequences might be. 

Edited July 15, 2021 by tennisgurl

[Sakura12]

23 minutes ago, KimberStormer said:

See, one example of my complaint is, even the people who make the show are calling this guy "Kang" but they deliberately refused to say his name in the show.  (It felt like an unnecessary tease leading up to the inevitable reveal that he was another Loki, which would have been perfectly in keeping with the rest of the show -- remember how much they emphasized in the first episode how the TVA does for the universe what Loki wanted to do for Earth/Asgard -- but nope!)  If you don't read comic books not only do you have no way to know who he is or why anyone would care, but you can't even know what the hell the cast and crew are talking about in the press!

We haven't met Kang yet. That guy was a variant of the Kang from the comics. So he would be more like Sylvie with going by a different name. I think they are calling him Kang in the press since it's already been revealed that the actor is playing Kang in Ant-Man.

[blackwing]

13 hours ago, Xantar said:

Call me old fashioned, but I like my stories to tell a story. Not just to act as setup for future stories.

I fully agree.  I kind of hated this whole season.  Confusing, difficult to understand what was going on, because everything is just done to set up Phase 4.  I would have much rather had this series actually be about Loki being Loki.  Playing tricks on people and betraying them.  Going on an adventure with the frost giants.  Maybe a flashback episode that explored his relationship with Frigga.   Instead, we get none of that, it was really all about Kang.

I really liked The Falcon and the Winter Soldier because that series took two familiar characters and told us a story involving them.  While at the same time, advancing the plot in the overall MCU.  When we next see Sam in an MCU movie, he will be Captain America.  And Bucky will be no longer as haunted by his past.  This series was successful in telling their story, and showing the impacts their story has on the MCU.  The ending set up Madame Hydra and US Agent for their debuts in an MCU movie.

Whereas here, this show really wasn't about Loki at all.  It could have been about anyone.  As long as Kang shows up at the end and talks about the Multiverse.

[Zuleikha]

In this case, she allowed Loki to change and put other people before himself, while she was unable to change her goal, no matter what the consequences might be.

I think the show dropped the ball on this for non-comic book readers. Pretty much every episode 1-5 has been setting us up to dislike and distrust the TVA and want the timelines freed. Last episode, in particular, was all about rah-rah burn the TVA to the ground, free people, give them the potential to change.

For those of us who don't know anything about Kang, the idea that Kang is freed by releasing the timelines doesn't mean anything. Maybe the writers want us to see Sylvie as making the wrong choice because she couldn't change her goal, but that's not what I got. I got Sylvie making the only choice she ever could have or would have made because there was simply no way in hell that character would ever support the continuation of the TVA.

I also don't think the show effectively sold the dilemma. I don't believe that our Loki would consider perpetuating the TVA at that point either. After all, I think both of our Lokis would have picked up on the same thing that many people picked up on: per He Who Remains's narrative, he and his variants are the problem, not the existence of multiple timelines.

[kirkola]

For me, this entire season has been about Loki's growth, with some setup to Phase 4.  Loki plucked from the losses in New York would have easily said yes to Miss Minutes' offer in the beginning of the finale.  But instead, the TVA, and more specifically, his uneasy friendships with Mobius & Sylvie, showed him a different way. 

Also, I think I'm one of the few who didn't really see a "romantic pairing" between Loki & Sylvie.  Sylvie, unless there's some comic book reason she's not, is for all intents and purposes Loki.  Another version of himself.  So yeah, I get that he would ultimately be "attracted" to himself.  He's Loki.  But I didn't see him "wooing" or "pursuing" her, so much as really just learning how to connect with her.  And frankly we haven't really seen Loki attempting to connect with anyone before.  It was kinda sweet or it would have been if she wasn't still a Loki.  The only other connection I can recall is Frigga, though an argument could be made for Mobius, too.  But Loki's line "Because you can't trust... and I can't be trusted" was Loki figuring out that it would never be more than that. That Sylvie couldn't get to the place where he was, which is why I think the kiss caught him off guard. 

[Lassus]

15 hours ago, Xantar said:

Call me old fashioned, but I like my stories to tell a story. Not just to act as setup for future stories.

I suppose I (and many others of a like mind when seeing these complaints) don't see how it can't be both; and in this case how it wasn't both.

Edited July 15, 2021 by Lassus

[Morrigan2575]

54 minutes ago, kirkola said:

But I didn't see him "wooing" or "pursuing" her, so much as really just learning how to connect with her

I didn't understand why it had to be romantic. I was actually really interested in Loki viewing Sylvie as a reflection of himself and learning about himself through her. Same as I saw him learning from Old Loki as a reflection of his future self.  I felt the romance didn't work or make sense when a connection between Loki's on a personal/non romantic level (Sylvia, Old Loki, Kid Loki, hell even Gator Loki) was, IMO more interesting 

1 hour ago, Zuleikha said:

Pretty much every episode 1-5 has been setting us up to dislike and distrust the TVA and want the timelines freed. Last episode, in particular, was all about rah-rah burn the TVA to the ground, free people, give them the potential to change

I think that was Sylvie's story not Loki's. Loki didn't want to destroy the TVA, he wanted to control it, he wanted the power and throne. Loki didn't even come around to the we must destroy it until episode 5.  

Episode 6 wasn't about comicbook or Phase 4 setup (IMO), other than the multiverse portion.  Mostly it was about Loki's character growth. The fact that Loki grew enough to realize that he didn't want the power or throne...which is a major epiphany for NY!Loki while Sylvie couldn't move past her revenge to take a minute to think about the consequences. 

As for SylviE, her final actions reminded me of that scene from Kill Bill...which "R" you filled with? I have a feeling Sylvie expected relief but, will be filled with Regret.

 

Edited July 15, 2021 by Morrigan2575

[Wynterwolf]

4 hours ago, tv echo said:

Okay, so this episode opens with an ABSOLUTE attack, aka it starts with Peggy and Steve's song, "It's Been a Long, Long Time," which we've heard throughout the MCU.

Just a point of clarification, this was Steve & Bucky's song first (and far more poignantly), before it was recycled for Steve & Peggy later in EG.  

I am so glad that Eric Martin confirmed that Loki has been changed by these experiences, and that they didn't want Loki to regress and fall back into old patterns!! This makes me very happy, and gives me some hope for S2. I think it will be fun to watch Loki and Mobius find their way back to each other, while hopefully reinvigorating Loki the Trickster and god of mischief in the process. 

And from another of EM's comments, I feel like one of the big handicaps of the MCU's way of doing things was really evident here when EM said he couldn't be certain his villain was in fact going to be Kang, so they had to hedge and write it in such a way that it would still work, even if that intention fell through. And that is so NOT the way to write stories!!!!! But this is the environment that Disney/Marvel forces their creatives to work under, and it's just not sustainable!!! And I think the toll this takes on quality of the storytelling can't be overstated. 

16 hours ago, Xantar said:

Call me old fashioned, but I like my stories to tell a story. Not just to act as setup for future stories.

This x 1000!!!

 

1 hour ago, Zuleikha said:

For those of us who don't know anything about Kang, the idea that Kang is freed by releasing the timelines doesn't mean anything. Maybe the writers want us to see Sylvie as making the wrong choice because she couldn't change her goal, but that's not what I got. I got Sylvie making the only choice she ever could have or would have made because there was simply no way in hell that character would ever support the continuation of the TVA.

I also don't think the show effectively sold the dilemma. I don't believe that our Loki would consider perpetuating the TVA at that point either. After all, I think both of our Lokis would have picked up on the same thing that many people picked up on: per He Who Remains's narrative, he and his variants are the problem, not the existence of multiple timelines.

Yes, I agree with this too. And this is another deficiency of what KF & Co are trying to do. And as much I have enjoyed several of the characters created here, and the environment of the TVA, I don't think this was necessarily the right vehicle to explore Loki's character. But it's what they used because they wanted Kang for the Movies and they chose this show to introduce him. While at the same time, not even confirming to the creative team that he was in fact going to be Kang. That is just such a nonsensical way to do things!! 

[Zuleikha]

I think that was Sylvie's story not Loki's. Loki didn't want to destroy the TVA, he wanted to control it, he wanted the power and throne. Loki didn't even come around to the we must destroy it until episode 5. 

 

My comment was more about how the show framed things for the audience. We've been taken on this journey in which the TVA is exposed as liars who are doing horribly, cruel things for the lie of a Sacred Timeline. We're rah-rah when Mobius talks about burning it down before stepping through the time door. Loki's character growth is shown through him not being interested in power and throne but rather in helping Sylvie.

For the only counter to all of that to be a character we don't know, who is clearly unstable/maybe even straight up insane, telling us "no, actually this is good and necessary" simply isn't much of a counterweight. To feel a dilemma and that Sylvie was making the wrong choice, I have to agree with Ravonna that only one person gets free will and it's the person in charge. I have to agree that Sylvie, Loki, and Classic Loki should be pruned and that some variants should be mindwiped and deceived into working for the TVA. 

This is just not an effective dilemma to me. I've stopped as Loki requested. I've thought about it. And I think Sylvie was absolutely right to blow it all up. If the problem is Kang the Conqueror, fight Kang the Conqueror. But don't sacrifice every living being's free will and murder entire timelines to... what even? Prevent the battle and murder of timelines? I think I would have bought the dilemma more if Loki actually was motivated by the old desire to prove himself the cleverest and most worthy.

[Sakura12]

If Loki had convinced Slyvie to not kill Kang, then what? What was his plan after that. Mobius asked him that before and he couldn't answer because he never thought of the afterwards. 

Was he planning on staying at the end of time and ruling the timeline? Was he going to free everyone anyway? He didn't have a plan so how was he going to convince Sylvie to do what he wanted when he didn't even know what he was doing. And he was all putting all his trust into a guy who was clearly insane. Sylvie may have trusted Loki, but she had no reason to trust that HWR was telling the truth. He was all about the sacred timeline and he was just going to hand 2 variants he's been hunting the keys to his castle just because. How does that make sense. 

[SnarkShark]

6 hours ago, IWantCandy71 said:

I thinknk (or rather hope) that there is only one TVA. The purpose of the TVA is to keep "order".

Having multiple TVA's would upset that. But then, everything is supposed to be upended chaos now, so.

But that's why this change would be so insideous.  I can even imagine a scenario where every version of the TVA believes they are the original.  They're all fighting for order, with the point of view that each of them is the center of it. 

[Wynterwolf]

13 minutes ago, SnarkShark said:

But that's why this change would be so insideous.  I can even imagine a scenario where every version of the TVA believes they are the original.  They're all fighting for order, with the point of view that each of them is the center of it. 

Hmmm... now I am also wondering if whatever happened to cause that change Loki came back to in the TVA (whether there are now multiple versions, or if  the whole facility was somehow memory wiped and reset, or if just Loki was wiped from everyone's memory, or something else) was something that Ravonna specifically did (or will do), or that Kang himself did when he was messing with that gadget, so that the TVA couldn't effectively interfere with his new plans. 

Edited July 15, 2021 by Wynterwolf

[Valerie]

So here's the thing.

After my favourite character in the MCU died in Endgame, so did my interest in Marvel (except for Loki). No plans to see any of the other movies in theaters, though I did watch the three Disney+ series. 

The finale set up a LOT for Phase 4, which is great if you're pumped for Phase 4 itself and all of the craziness and time travel and multiverses etc. Buuuuuuut, if you're like me and you're not, it was like 30 minutes of exposition from Kang and then just 10 of anything interesting happening. So I definitely feel like of... underwhelmed.

I'm excited for Season 2 but I do worry how much it's going to rely on some parallel understanding of what's going on in Phase 4 too at the same time.

Did anyone else see the tear on Loki's cheek when Sophie kissed him? 

Also the way he looked at Mobius when he didn't recognize him... my heart! Hopefully Owen Wilson is back for Season 2 because that friendship is one of the greatest in an MCU project.