S01.E06: For All Time. Always.

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

The clock is ticking in the season finale which finds Loki and Sylvie on a date with destiny.

Season finale, dropping Wednesday, July 14, 2021!

[tkc]

The mid-credits scene we all wanted to see!

[paigow]

Planet Of The Apes [Mark Wahlberg version] ending... Looks like Sylvie sent Loki to the wrong branch

[steelyis]

Holy crap! All He Who Remains did was talk, and I was terrified! Jonathan Majors is amazing! I mean, he plays bug-fuck unhinged really, really well.

And he was right. Maybe some super team will find a way to fix things in a less fascistic way, but until then, he was right. Freaking terrifying.

Sylvie, how you disappoint me with your sudden, but inevitable betrayal. 

Poor Loki. Lost his potential love interest, his new best friend doesn't remember who he is, and Loki's smack dab in the lion's den. Hey, at least he learned something from this journey. Got some real character growth. Too bad about all the failure.

I'm looking forward to season 2.

Edited July 14, 2021 by steelyis

[magdalene]

Poor Loki. His character growth stuck but the cost oh the cost.... Lost his love the worst way - through betrayal.  And the friend he made doesn't remember him.

So I don't know the comics but the guy who basically monologued the whole episode was bat shit but right in that worse is coming?  Groovy.

We are getting a season 2!

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Wait, that's it? That's it?! C'mon, man.....

I've been seeing lots of speculation that He Who Remains is (was?) Kang the Conqueror, whoever that is. I'm not sure how he lost his own plot, as it were, since if he really did start the whole TVA he "should have" known what would happen. He didn't even seem that concerned or upset when Sylvie shoved Loki through that time door, since he was the only thing standing between him and being killed. Strange. Or maybe the guy was just crazy and/or tired.

Miss Minutes appearing out of nowhere freaked me out. I thought she was going to attack them or something. Stupid clock. She's always seemed weirdly sinister, though. Probably a lot to do with the cornpone accent.

Loki's heartbroken expression really made me feel bad for him, though I don't see how it could have ended another way. I wonder what happened to Sylvie. If he's in a new timeline, or not a new one but just a redone one, where did she go? Will she be back for the next season, and how long do we have to wait to find out what happens next?

[Peace 47]

Hmmmm.  As a piece that moves characters around like chess pieces to their starting points for future movies (I heard a podcaster use that analogy awhile back), I think this finale was probably successful for achieving their overall goals.

However, until the last 5 minutes, I did not think that this episode functioned all that well as a finale to this show’s story, even though I am very happy that this did not turn into a third act CGI-fest like so many comic shows and movies do.

I might guess that Marvel comics fans were probably over the moon at the introduction to Kang the Conquerer (and for a Disney+ show finally to deliver on a true major movie reveal), but his “sinister mysterious jester” persona was a little grating when I personally only cared about the characters we had already met and gotten to know over the other 5 episodes.  And Kang’s extended exposition put the narrative focus on his story instead of Loki and his character development for too much (IMHO) of the episode.  When it came back to Loki trying to talk Sylvie off the metaphorical ledge, the episode felt more connected to all this time we spent on Loki building friendships, learning about himself, dedicating himself to truth, etc.

That ending with Mobius not recognizing Loki was a gut punch, though.  Loki truly has nothing left.  Edit:  I see above that it’s likely that Sylvie sent Loki to the wrong timeline branch, and that’s how it happened.  Kang said everything was written up to a point, but I guess that doesn’t mean that branches cannot occur anywhere and every-when now.  Couple of other random thoughts:

- All these characters are pretty awful planners.  Mobius goes into Renslayer’s office BY HIMSELF (facepalm) and gets taken down immediately.  Sylvie only wants the satisfaction of stabbing Kang and doesn’t think about anything at all after it’s done?

- Would have liked some indication of why Mobius didn’t remember leaving the coffee table rings that Ravonna glanced meaningfully at this episode (or remember those other trophies).  I get that it’s a Season 2 thing, though.

- Renslayer was a principal???  Why did she still have her high school pen at the TVA?  

- What was the first movie to do that effect of “oily substance morphs into metallic figurines to provide visual interest to exposition” (like Kang with with his multiverse explanation)?  Was it Man of Steel?  Because comic shows and movies just can’t seem get enough of that effect.

Edited July 14, 2021 by Peace 47

[swanpride]

...I guess the streaming shows continue the tradition of having mediocre season finals (seriously, grab some Agents of Shield writers, they pulled off a feast every-single-time, even for the mid-seasons). I mean, usually that wouldn't have been such a bad episode, it was certainly an interesting dilemma represented there. The issue is that it made everything which happened before seem like a very long epilogue. 

For the record: I don't think that deleting time-lines can be justified in the end. If timelines wants to war, that is part of our free choices, too.  

[Zahdii]

Damn, I was just shaking my head, saying NO, I need closure.  I want a happy ending.  I felt unsatisfied, even cheated.

Then I remembered that even if I was given the happy ending I wanted, it would turn out to have come all unraveled in the next movie, or the next season, etc.

So now I just wish this last episode of Season 1 would have lasted longer.  A couple of hours sounds about right.

Sylvie, if you're going to break Loki's heart, at least send him back to the proper timeline so he can be around friends, assuming Mobius and Hunter B-15 are still alive.

Where did Ravonna Renslayer go?  She seemed pissed off and done with it all.  Did she decide that the Big Bad TVA has a weakness and she's off to find someone she can serve (and maybe supplant) that doesn't have such a weakness?  Is her choosing who to team up with her idea of freedom? 

I didn't like He Who Remains, he talked too much, and he was nuttier than a fruitcake.  I guess all that power and no one to talk to except a cartoon Miss Minutes will do that to a person.  I'm sure we'll see his variants soon, and I'll probably like them even less.

I wish we could have found out what Sylvie's nexus event was.

Speaking of nexus events, B-15 lured that other Hunter to Earth to meet up with Renslayer back before she was pruned.  Could it be that her nexus event was telling others about the wierd people that appeared in her school and talked about timelines and acted like she was someone else? 

Edited July 20, 2021 by Zahdii

[swanpride]

I am not sure if Loki's timeline still exist, but that is another problem one should better not think too hard about. 

[arc]

According to the credits, Eugene Cordero (Casey) got bumped up to Hunter K-5E (which kinda looks like "Casey" if you want to read the 5 as an 's').

I think He Who Remains genuinely was tired of the game. I don't particularly know why, since by all appearances the TVA practically runs itself without his day to day input. But this basically makes him a (more) evil take on Willy Wonka setting up a grand game to determine his successor.

Loki's personal growth hit a natural stopping point by ep 5, while Sylvie's hadn't. It's a shame she didn't see the chaos of all the variant Lokis fighting each other; maybe that could have changed her mind. Though ultimately I think even seeing that wouldn't have provided catharsis for her. Our variant Loki is much closer to the other trickster/power-hungry Lokis. Sylvie has had a lifetime of being hunted and a lifetime goal of taking out the TVA, not quarrels with Thor or seeking the throne.

I'm super disappointed Renslayer just stepped through a time door and we never saw where she stepped out.

[Featherhat]

Hmm....Lots of thoughts. 

It wasn't bad and clearly sets a LOT up for the rest of Phase 4 let alone a second season but hm...It felt really short even a season finale of a show this expansive, even if it was 40 minutes, possibly because most of it was just sitting in Kang's? office. 

The haunted castle aesthetic looked better up close than it did last week where it looked like a fair ground attraction. Miss Minutes popping up there to offer the "deal" was genuinely creepy. I think it's the voice that's "have a nice day, y'all" no matter what she's saying. 

I'm not surprised that they did the "you were meant to come and fine me" bit that so many time travel and sci-fi/fantasy shows do, Loki has hewn pretty closely to a lot of tropes. Not that that's a bad thing but it's an interestingly conventional route for a show about Loki in many ways. 

Jonathan Majors was good and managed to keep the energy of the role up and was clearly batshit insane. I think he was genuinely tired of the game and thought if he could get two variants of the trickster god on his side things had a half way decent chance of working out. Sort of like promoting your biggest rival/revolutionary to a high position to make him see the "benefits" of the system as is.

I kind of did like that whilst he is the architect of Sylvie's horrible life that someone called her out on also being a murderer of innocents. She has glossed over that part a lot. 

So Renslayer is the kind of cultist that when it all turns out to be fake doubles down, that makes sense. "Only one person gets free will, the one in charge" I mean in some ways she's not entirely wrong but that's a pretty nihilistic way of looking at it and destroys any personal accountability apart from anything else. And also conveniently fits into her world view that it doesn't even matter if the TVA was fake. It will be interesting to see where she went. 

But "remove the dictator and what fills the void" is a question that's had a lot of horrific answers on our world as well. Not that that justifies a melomaniac in power making people dance to his will either. It does require more thought that simply murdering the dictator and hoping for the best though. As we saw at the end with the statue. 

I know this is sort of an unpopular opinion but I'm not a huge fan of Sylvie. I get why she is what she is and her life has been horrific so she wants revenge but she's also a one track mind bull in a china shop. Loki asking her to wait for 2 minutes to think through the ramifications is actually character growth on his part and I don't think he'd lie to her/trick her at this point if he just wanted a throne and that was his plan. He's never been shy about saying that in the past. And Kang saying "see you soon" as he was dying was pretty much the most terrifying thing. 

Not invested in Loki/Loki but I did kind of feel bad for him being betrayed by someone he loved, although that was pretty much karmic payback for all the times he's done the same thing as well. TH can really bring the devastation on his face both with Sylvie's betrayal and realising that is best friend doesn't know him anymore. That one was worse (for me). 

The branching timelines looked beautiful. 

I'm sad we didn't really get to see much of B-15 in this ep although she delivered a couple of important lines. Owen Wilson also didn't have much to do but a lot of set up for next season. Mobius hasn't really learned his lesson when it comes to confronting people has he? He was the optimistic side of the coin to Renslayer's "ends justify the means doesn't matter if it was all fake" approach and they do play well off each other as well as obviously he and TH.  

I think I need a rewatch to get my thoughts in more of an order. 

Edited July 14, 2021 by Featherhat

[Peace 47]

11 minutes ago, swanpride said:

For the record: I don't think that deleting time-lines can be justified in the end. If timelines wants to war, that is part of our free choices, too.  

I understood Loki’s hesitation there, though.  If what Kang was saying was true, then billions (trillions?) of lives that otherwise could have continued to their natural end might have been lost to time wars.  I think Loki just didn’t want to make a rash decision in the heat of the moment, given all the lives in balance.   

33 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

I've been seeing lots of speculation that He Who Remains is (was?) Kang the Conqueror, whoever that is. I'm not sure how he lost his own plot, as it were, since if he really did start the whole TVA he "should have" known what would happen. He didn't even seem that concerned or upset when Sylvie shoved Loki through that time door, since he was the only thing standing between him and being killed. Strange. Or maybe the guy was just crazy and/or tired.

I do somewhat “trust” Kang’s word that he didn’t know what would happen after the point that Sylvie and Loki were sitting in front of him.  And I did believe how tired he was.

I wish we could have gotten some answers (or even just a reference) on what Kang was actually doing with the TVA, though.  Why the Space Lizard story at all?  His story was so close to the Space Lizard dogma, why not just set up the TVA imagery in his own likeness (like the timeline Loki returned to at the end of the episode)?  How does he mind-wipe the variants to force them into service as TVA agents?  (That is, he has control over “time,” but it doesn’t necessarily follow that he would have brainwashing skills at such a high level.)

The ending of the episode felt a bit “The Good Place” to me in how Mobius doesn’t recognize Loki and Season 2 will have to involve some kind of reestablishment of their friendship or the creation of a new one (if the old one/ old timeline is lost forever).  I have to say that type of loop over and over got a little old for me on “The Good Place,” so I hope this show does it better. 

[magdalene]

I didn't get the episode I wanted but I also didn't think the episode was mediocre or disappointing.  I have no idea who that character "He who remains" is and have zero emotional investment in him. He certainly had the flashy role and got to chew the scenery for the entire episode.

I think Hiddleston had the more difficult acting job and he was terrific.  I really bought his Loki's heart break and devastation.  As for Sylvie, she can jump off a very tall cliff for all I care about her now.

[Bill1978]

I'm guessing the surname of He Who Remains is Talking. Man, did a lot of it which really sucked out a lot of final episode hype I had going into it. I get they need to explain things but surely it didn't have to be that tedious. And all it did was really confuse my simple brain with what was going on. I did pick up the mention of him being a conqueror was and so came here to see if he is/was Kang. I don't know the actor from a bar of soap so had no idea he had already been cast as Kang for Ant-Man 3.

Although it was cool to see the Multiverse finally appear and even though it impacts the MCU movies way more than the other 2,  I feel this was the weakest of the 3 finales for the Disney+ shows. Probably because so much attention was given to He Who Remains instead of focussing on all the characters we have followed for 5 episodes.

And while the mid credit scene was nice to confirm the rumours, I was hoping for something more substantial for my mid credit scene - like what we got with WandaVision and TFATWS. I'm definitely returning for the second season, I have really grown to like the character of Loki during this show.

[Cthulhudrew]

I wonder if there is a reason they didn't call Majors' character here Immortus, or if he's not actually supposed to be Immortus (costume, minus headdress fits; castle at the end of time fits; m.o. fits). In any case, I thought he did a pretty interesting job and it seems to me that he is playing a version of the character that will be much, much different from his upcoming big screen version (which, as an actor, I'm sure he is thrilled about.)

The storyline about the Multiversal War and the different multiversal variants of He Who Remains makes me wonder just how much of a "Phase 4" Big Bad Majors may be playing (if at all), or if they are just setting him up for a role that- much like his comic counterpart- will be able to field in many different aspects and storylines going forward as the creative minds see fit, rather than locking him into a Thanos-type endgame villain.

I had a feeling that we would be hearing a S2 announcement shortly (although I didn't expect at the end of the episode), because it felt like it would have been shortchanging the audience to bring in a new character in the final episode unless they were planning a cliffhanger for a second season. Plus, there is still so much room to mine here.

All that said, for a season finale, this felt in some ways anticlimactic for me; there was just way too much exposition. I can't help but wonder if they could have seeded some of this better throughout the previous episodes, so that He Who Watches was really just tying things together rather than telling the entire backstory. 

I also feel like many of the most poignant character pieces were rushed all season long. I like the overall premise of the show, and love Hiddleston (and have even come to really like SDM's Sylvie character). The notion of the main character finding love for himself (albeit through the conceit of a gender-reversed version) and rethinking his purpose was great, but so much of the heavy lifting for it had to be performed by the actors where the scripts didn't really allow it. There should have been more synergy, and certainly less wasted screen time in some of the scenes (the dragged out beats of the two Lokis and JM's character that took up 5-10 minutes at the beginning of this episode, for instance, felt like it could have been greatly condensed and the time better spent elsewhere. There were a few places like that in earlier episodes as well.) The action scenes in this episode were better than in others, but only barely; perhaps a re-evaluation of whether such scenes are even necessary for this particular story and batch of characters is in order (in a show like Falcon and Winter Soldier, for instance, they fit; they aren't really a Loki thing, IMO).

Overall, while I enjoyed this season and look forward to more, this ranks third in my favorite of the 3 Disney-Marvel shows this year. F&WS is #1, WandaVision is #2. If I'm being fair, I only rank F&WS higher due to my love of the main characters and actors in that show, including Zemo); WV is probably the tightest script of all three. 

 

[Spartan Girl]

After all these years of betraying others, Loki finally feels the sting of betrayal himself. No, Odin hiding the fact that he was adopted doesn’t count.

We all knew the timeline was going to split but holy shit, what a cliffhanger! Thank God we’re getting a season 2.

As gorgeous as the timeline opening sequence was, every time I hear that stupid Steve and Peggy dancing song, I want to puke. 

This first season was such a wild, weird ride. And while this finale left with more WTFs than anything, it was better than TFATWS finale. Yeah, I said it.

[swanpride]

1 hour ago, Peace 47 said:

If what Kang was saying was true, then billions (trillions?) of lives that otherwise could have continued to their natural end might have been lost to time wars.

Not really. If what he was saying was true, there would always be another reality in which said person is still alive. But by limiting everything to one timeline, you basically ensure to erase the possibility of it. Which was the point, wasn't it? No to rescue people, but to be the one ultimate version of yourself. 

[JustHereForFood]

3 hours ago, steelyis said:

Sylvie, how you disappoint me with your sudden, but inevitable betrayal. 

Was she wrong though? God, that person was so annoying, I was hoping that she would kill him after about 2 minutes. I keep seeing comments like what an amazing performance that was and I don't get it at all. He was just completely unhinged, any mediocre actor can do that. I think I could do that.

Anyway, I am not too disappointed, but I expected much more from this episode. Usually I don't mind if the whole episode is just talking and exposition and I don't need action to balance it, but since this one had that guy talking for about 20 minutes, I was ready to tear my hair out and when Sylvie and Loki started fighting each other, I almost screamed from joy that finally something interesting is happening. That was a great scene. I could do without the kiss, but their talk was great. As was the image of all the alternative timelines branching out, forming the multiverse. I am looking forward to how that is going to be handled next, I believe it will be in Doctor Strange 2.

Basically, this was a good setup for the next phase of Marvel, but as a finale to this season, it was a bit of a disappointment for me.

[Featherhat]

War can be a consequence of free will but it's rarely everyone's will and trillions would die or be wiped from being born in a time war. 

2 minutes ago, swanpride said:

Not really. If what he was saying was true, there would always be another reality in which said person is still alive. But by limiting everything to one timeline, you basically ensure to erase the possibility of it. Which was the point, wasn't it? No to rescue people, but to be the one ultimate version of yourself. 

But if there was any truth to the "dogma" of the TVA then a time war where the timelines fought each other almost ended up destroying *everything*.  There are no timelines that didn't get affected by it. Of course we don't know if most actually lived in peace and it was just the Kangs that ended up getting killed until this one got his wish for supremacy. 

I don't think it justifies the TVA's brutal tactics of "pruning" branches but I don't think it's as simple as let the timelines branch out and fight as they may either. For one thing time wars are never linear and always mess with time itself to the point where someone or something has to step in to heal the situation. 

I don't think Loki and Sylvie should have taken Kang's offer in the slightest but I do think she shouldn't have rushed to stab him and quickly jump to Loki wanting to rule time when he said "lets think things through". There may have been a 3rd option, especially if they'd been able to contact Mobius and B-15 as well. 

In other shows/movies/books where they get rid of the Time-keepers/masters/lords/auditors/bureau there are others around that still have to fix problems in time in a less brutal way to prevent reality from completely breaking down. 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

2 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

War can be a consequence of free will but it's rarely everyone's will and trillions would die or be wiped from being born in a time war. 

But if there was any truth to the "dogma" of the TVA then a time war where the timelines fought each other almost ended up destroying *everything*.  There are no timelines that didn't get affected by it. Of course we don't know if most actually lived in peace and it was just the Kangs that ended up getting killed until this one got his wish for supremacy.

Except Kang also said was that he weaponized Alioth and made him/it the guardian of the Void, that that was the force that was born out of all the timeline wars and he just....repurposed him. If the Alioth that devoured Classic Loki last week is the "improved" version, what was the original one like? If the dogma of the TVA is true and the goal is peace, why is Alioth even still around?

Kang himself was also a variant, at least if he wasn't lying through his teeth. Are the universes he was talking about discovering no longer stacked on top of each other? If there really is only one timeline, where did they go? I get confused, because Classic Loki lived for a long time after he faked his death, but the second he made a move to look for his brother, the TVA dealt with him immediately. His timeline must have gone on without him, but what about after he was pruned? Sure, he spent many years in isolation, but if there's a butterfly effect of sorts it might have affected other things to remove him and send him to the Void. We don't even really know what happened to the other people from Sylvie's timeline, since Renslayer just took her and we didn't see the end result of the pruning. She only escaped because she bit Ravonna and stole her Tempad. If Kang was right (or at least telling the truth) about having planned everything exactly as it happened, she must have been meant to get away, to survive on her own into adulthood. Before they entered the castle, she told Loki, "I was pruned long before you existed. I just need to take a minute." The irony here is that she did pause for thought, at least initially. Perhaps if Kang had been less nonchalant about everything, it would have ended differently.

[jelaine]

I only have one word for the season finale of Loki and that is bereft. I generally prefer letting a story play out fully before making any judgements. One story cannot tell all stories after all.

Looking over the whole series, I do think the story was rushed. Usually, I like a shorter season. It lets the writers, actors, directors, and producers get into the story, get out, and execute it well. At least, more often than not. Here though I think they were more interested in getting to the “cool” stuff – Lady Loki, Classic Loki, Kid Loki, Alligator Loki, ‘He Who Remains’ – and setting up the next Doctor Strange movie, than in telling Loki’s story.

I was not pleased with the suggestion of a romance between Loki and Sylvie. I think in this particular instance a romantic angle is reductive. Yes, they share a special bond and get in each other in a way that no one else really can, but I think the romantic angle closes off all other sorts of love or relationships between them. Once you go romance you never go back.

Taking the romance out of the picture, I did like the relationship between Sylvie and Loki. Tom and Sophia work well together. I liked that Gugu ended up with a pretty decent part to play. I hate that Wumni ended up with so little to do. I hate that they spiked the one relationship they actually established – Mobius and Loki’s friendship, frenemy-ship(?) – which could/should have been the foundation of the show, for romance and “cool” stuff. Mobius was the one who showed Loki he could be a better version of himself.

Once again, in the end, Loki fails so others can be the best version of themselves. And that’s just sad.

[steelyis]

1 hour ago, JustHereForFood said:

Was she wrong though? God, that person was so annoying, I was hoping that she would kill him after about 2 minutes.

As far the 'Time Lord' goes? I don't know. But she betrayed Loki's trust, for sure.

[Jediknight]

After what Sylvie just did, I don't think we can give Barry or the Legends any more shit for their antics with the timeline.

[Peace 47]

On the subject of Loki’s hesitation to kill Kang and whether Kang’s point about a multiversal apocalypse has any merit:  I don’t think Loki was advocating to Sylvie about taking Kang up on the offer to become the benevolent dictators of the TVA.  I think Loki was just saying not to make the decision to kill Kang out of the passion of the moment.  I assume he would have wanted to take Kang back to the TVA for further questioning, maybe enchant him to get the real truth, or maybe get advice from others like Mobius on what to do (or at least prepare for the consequences), but the show never specified, and it goes to all these characters having “shit plans” (in Sylvie’s words).  Why use swords when you have magic, to paraphrase another Loki.

Ironically in light of his past, Loki has been the one truth-teller about everything going on in this show (his skepticism about the TVA; his commitment to making sure they knew the truth about their variant status, etc.)  That is why I think his panic at the end in returning to a different TVA was meant to convey that Sylvie’s decision did have disastrous consequences and wasn’t the right one, even if the option of leaving Kang in place was also disastrous.  Sometimes there are no right decisions.

I just can’t believe we didn’t get any jet ski action this season.  The true failing of the finale.

[AimingforYoko]

So if I read this right, this was not Kang, but Kang is a variant of He Who Remains. And now, Kang is coming. BTW Jonathan Majors was great.

It's a shame, but Sylvie was just too damaged to trust anyone but herself. I'm no He Who Remains, but that was somewhat predictable.

This is the first show where we absolutely know we're getting a Season 2, right?

[tv echo]

Thoughts while watching...

Love the Marvel intro with the voiceovers (bits of dialogue from past MCU movies and streaming series).

Oh, there's Miss Minutes in the Citadel - what a surprise.

He Who Remains offers Loki everything he wants - winning the Battle of New York (beating the Avengers), the Asgardian throne (beating Thor, I assume), the Infinity Gauntlet (beating Thanos, saving Asgard), and having both him and Sylvie in the same timeline. Should be a big temptation. But this Loki seems to have changed 180 degrees from the one in 2012.

He Who Remains is.... (drum roll)... who? So there's no free will? Everything's already predetermined?

Hunter B-15 goes to Fremont, Ohio, in 2018. We see Vice Principal Rebecca Tourminet, who Hunter D-90 calls "Judge Renslayer."

Big confrontation between Mobius and Ravonna Renslayer. Well, that was a short fight.

He Who Remains is a variant of himself, a scientist in the 31st century? Exposition time. Long exposition time. It makes no sense. Big choice to make.

Whoa - Loki and Sylvie are fighting. I guess Lokis really can't trust anyone. I have to say, the Loki vs. Sylvie fight was pretty awesome.

Double Whoa - Loki and Sylvie kiss! She pushes him through a Time Door back to the TVA. She kills He Who Remains, causing multiple time branches. The Sacred Timeline turns into the Multiverse?

Why doesn't Mobius recognize Loki? Poor Loki.

No Time Keepers statues. Instead, one statue of a futuristic variant of He Who Remains, who is Kang the Conqueror (according to Marvel.com).

Noooo - cliffhanger ending!  Mobius, Hunter B-15 and Loki will be working at the TVA, I assume, to deal with the ramifications of the broken timeline and the dangerous variant coming.

FYI: Marvel.com's Episode 6 Event Report has been posted.

Edited July 14, 2021 by tv echo

[VCRTracking]

I thought he was more Immortus than Kang. Kang is the younger version who's more dangerous.

I was genuinely surprised to see him. I thought it was going to be another Mephisto or Reed Richards situation where fans were just speculating online. 

Edited July 14, 2021 by VCRTracking

[paigow]

34 minutes ago, AimingforYoko said:

And now, Kang is coming. 

 

[Lassus]

I dunno, from this board so far I wonder if this will be considered disappointing.  I thought they fucking nailed it.  Loki and Sylvie finished their arcs well, we got a great set up for what's coming, a great villain and explanation.  From a COMIC BOOK standpoint, I simply thought it was quite great.

[SeanC]

This is the first season of a Marvel program that qualifies as great (or at least near-great), in my view.  Much more coherent, and the wider MCU setup is far better integrated than it was in the previous ones.

[Lassus]

Also, I'm not so convinced Loki was MEANT to be returned to the wrong timeline as much as it's just where he ended up due to the insanity of what had just happened.

[dwmarch]

Well not quite what I was hoping for but some interesting developments, particularly an unambiguous season 2 in the making.

The best twist for me was Mobius greeting Loki with "you're an analyst, right?" And while I'm sure Loki isn't going to spend very long dwelling on it, that has to be humbling. A few minutes ago you were unraveling the mysteries of the universe. Now you're back at the office getting mistaken for one of the worker bees.

I think the story suffered a bit from end of time tropes. You can say that the universe ends at a fixed point but in terms of the narrative, the characters are still going to experience a linear flow of time beyond that point. If you really want to show the end of a universe, put this show in the Friday night slot on Fox. (Too soon? Hey, I'm a Browncoat too, that still hurts even after all these years.)

If Kang was just going to open the door for them, did Classic Loki need to sacrifice himself last week? Then again, maybe Classic Loki would have turned out to be a threat so props if that's the reason why he had to go.

[calliope1975]

2 hours ago, Peace 47 said:

I just can’t believe we didn’t get any jet ski action this season.  The true failing of the finale.

I was really hoping for Lokigator and Mobius on jet skis, but now I have a dream for Season 2. 

I was pleased. I don't watch anything Marvel for standalone stories anymore. Everything is intertwined with previous and future storylines, and while I recognize that's frustrating for those wanting a contained story, I'm thrilled that this is all one giant story that started in 2008 (give or take if they include OG Blade or something else I'm forgetting) that's still ongoing. 

I've been following Jonathan Majors career for a few years and thought he was great. A little unhinged, a little bored, a little mischievous. Since he's the nice Kang (or whatever name he was going by) it'll be interesting to see if the how the next variant will act. Probably not so playful. 

Poor Loki. He lost everything. I wonder when S2 will be set since we have several movies in between.

 

[pancake bacon]

Guess we're just that much farther away from Mobius getting that jetski ☹️

And Lokis (both of them?) FAIL AGAIN, still in fulfillment of what they're destined to be. 

I loved this show!

Jonathan Majors having to do such massive exposition undercut the impact he could have made with his introduction. Haven't warmed up to the storytelling potential of his character yet. 

[VCRTracking]

8 minutes ago, pancake bacon said:

Guess we're just that much farther away from Mobius getting that jetski ☹️

And Lokis (both of them?) FAIL AGAIN, still in fulfillment of what they're destined to be. 

I loved this show!

Jonathan Majors having to do such massive exposition undercut the impact he could have made with his introduction. Haven't warmed up to the storytelling potential of his character yet. 

To be fair, this isn't the dymamic "Conqueror" version this is the old, weary and a little mad survivor. 

Even if Sylvie did believe "He who remains" I don't see her running the TVA and doing whats been done to her. I don't see Loki doing that either after the arc he just went through. No matter what possible greater good it's still eliminating timelines and killing countless lives. The reason the variants had their memories erased and made believe they were created by Timekeepers was because any sane person would be horrified to do it.

[swanpride]

Frankly, I don't even believe the "you are here because I wanted you to be" BS. I am pretty sure that was a last play of this guy. Because otherwise the whole Miss Minute attempt to keep them away made zero sense. 

[dwmarch]

57 minutes ago, swanpride said:

Frankly, I don't even believe the "you are here because I wanted you to be" BS. I am pretty sure that was a last play of this guy. Because otherwise the whole Miss Minute attempt to keep them away made zero sense. 

That reminds me, we saw Miss Minutes act independently in another instance in this episode. Renslayer asked for specific information and Miss Minutes basically said "you should look at this instead". That ended up influencing where Renslayer went at the end. However, that might be how things are supposed to play out. Still, interesting to see Miss Minutes doing things on her own.

[Cthulhudrew]

4 hours ago, Jediknight said:

After what Sylvie just did, I don't think we can give Barry or the Legends any more shit for their antics with the timeline.

This certainly trumps their goofs, although if they were in the same situation, I don't know that I can confidently say they wouldn't make the same mistake (given their typical MO).

4 hours ago, Peace 47 said:

On the subject of Loki’s hesitation to kill Kang and whether Kang’s point about a multiversal apocalypse has any merit:  I don’t think Loki was advocating to Sylvie about taking Kang up on the offer to become the benevolent dictators of the TVA.  I think Loki was just saying not to make the decision to kill Kang out of the passion of the moment. 

This was definitely my feeling, as well. I think the binary choice He Who Remains was offering was too simplistic- either you kill me and restart the Multiversal Wars and I'll end up coming back to life anyway, or else you take my place and prune the timelines. I think Loki was trying to find an alternative.

4 hours ago, AimingforYoko said:

So if I read this right, this was not Kang, but Kang is a variant of He Who Remains. 

I think they are all Kangs; the "variant" concept didn't exist as such until He Who Remains started the TVA and began pruning anything that wasn't part of his "sacred timeline." At that point, any of what would be naturally-occurring multiversal counterparts became unacceptable "variants." Or in other words, Variance is the natural state of being, and only became a dirty word when He Who Remains decided "there shall be only one."

So a couple of other questions that remain for me about this series:

1) I was under the impression that the TVA existed somewhere outside of time in order to fulfill its function, so why would there now be multiple versions of it? (If, indeed, there are different versions of it now, and the TVA we see at the end didn't just replace the last glimpse we had of "our" TVA from earlier in the show).

2) I get why they dismissed the power of the Infinity Stones in the first episode for dramatic purposes, but honestly? I don't see anything to give the impression that the Kangs, with their scientific technologies and apparent control over time (alone), have any more power than was contained within the Time Stone, much less all the stones working in combination. If anything, I would have thought that Kang would have wanted (if not needed) the Time Stone in order to provide the TVA with the resources needed to do their job effectively, or even to eliminate the need for the TVA entirely.

24 minutes ago, dwmarch said:

That reminds me, we saw Miss Minutes act independently in another instance in this episode. Renslayer asked for specific information and Miss Minutes basically said "you should look at this instead". 

IIRC, didn't Miss Minutes say "He thought you should look at this instead"? Implying that this was, indeed, part of another plot by He Who Remains (or possibly another version of him) to drive Ravonna to whatever her next move will be.

[Wynterwolf]

"And Alexander wept, seeing as he had no more worlds to conquer."

I have lots of thoughts, but I still need to digest more. Jonathan Majors did a excellent job with a character that could have come across very 'cartoonish' but didn't. 

[IWantCandy71]

I kinda guessed the Mobius thing when he went off alone last time.I knew that would not be a good thing.  It still hurt, though. I love any good portrayals of friendship. The OW/TH chemistry is on point. 

I do think this isn't the same Mobius, but can we be sure ? Maybe I've seen too much time travel related stuff, but circumstances can change while the people remain the same ?  I mean, if it's truly a different timeline, why is he still just an analyst ? Owen does seem to be playing this Mobius a little differently. Colder., I guess ? Just from that small bit.

I don't think Sylvie knew where she was sending Loki. She knew it wouldn't matter once she did what she did. The kiss was awkward and forced. And the "after all this time", Loki hon, you met her like 5 minutes ago. I don't know the actor playing the Kang variant. Some of his acting was good, other times I thought TH was the only one putting in work. That scene went on way too long. 

I am glad we're gonna get season 2 and glad OW is coming back.

Oh, and I kind of want to see Mobius and  Ravonna date. Possibly run the TVA together ? They have some chemistry.

 

Edited July 14, 2021 by IWantCandy71

[thuganomics85]

Wow, I did not predict that they would actually end things on a cliffhanger and not have any kind of wrap-up of the main arcs like the other shows did.  Of course, they quickly reveal that it will be coming back for a season two which doesn't surprise me (especially with those streaming numbers!), but they must have really been confident when making this.  Granted, I think Marvel will back any of its work as long as they don't completely face-plant (hey, I never would have predicted years ago that Ant-Man would get three films!)

So, the mysterious man running the show goes by "many names and titles", but is currently known as He Who Remains and played by Jonathan Majors, recently seen in Lovecraft Country (which he just got an Emmy nod for!)  I'll keep calling him that for now, but I'm about 90% sure about who the character actually is.  But basically he is a supposed all knowing being who created the TVA in order to prevent the Multiverse from happening and having his apparently evil variants show up and ruin things, but was getting bored with things and wanted Loki and Sylvie to take over for him.  And that.... did not go as planned.  Majors was fun giving off some kooky, crazed vibes (kind of reminded me of The Grandmaster, actually), but I'm looking forward to his portrayals of the other variants.

Disappointed that Sylvie went through with killing him and fucking up the timelines, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised.  Just like I've accepted that Loki has done a lot of bad things due to how his upbringing shaped him, I also accept that Sylvie's life has made her hard to trust anyone and only care about herself, no matter the consequences.  The difference (right now) is that Loki seems to have realized that he needs to be better, so the question is will Sylvie also realize this or continue to get worse?

Even after knowing the truth, Ravonna continues to be steadfast loyal to the "cause", because she has to believe all of this means something.  I wonder what she's up too, now?

As much as I enjoy Loki/Sylvie, it is telling that Loki discovering he's in a timeline where Mobius doesn't know who he is was truly the big gut punch of the episode.  He finally had a friend, dammit!

Miss Minutes kind of got a bit sinister there too!  Tara Strong is a hell of a voice actress to say the least!

I do hope we get more of Hunter B-15 next season.  Need more Wunmi Mosaku!

All in all, I do wish we maybe got one more episode or so to really flesh things out, but I thought this was probably the strongest outing of the Disney+ series or at least tied with Wandavision (I still liked The Falcon & the Winter Solider, but it was admittedly flawed)  Loved the set-up and locations, the technical aspects were top-notch (especially the directing and music), and I love how truly unpredictable everything.  The cast was great, with Tom Hiddelston doing an excellent job carrying the series, a great introduction to Sophia Di Martino for me, and Owen Wilson truly ends up being a perfect example of a successful "outside the box" casting.  Can't wait to see everyone again next season!  Although I hope they find a way to bring back the true star of the series: Alligator Loki!

[Cthulhudrew]

37 minutes ago, IWantCandy71 said:

I don't think Sylvie knew where she was sending Loki. She knew it wouldn't matter once she did what she did. 

Agreed. It may also be notable He Who Remains' time thingamawhozitz was already preprogrammed based on his knowledge up to the crisis point. So he may have been lying about not seeing everything, or he may have been telling the truth, but either way it wouldn't surprise me if he'd programmed the device to send whomever used it to a particular place and time, and it is all still part of his mad plan.

[Wynterwolf]

1 hour ago, Cthulhudrew said:

I think they are all Kangs; the "variant" concept didn't exist as such until He Who Remains started the TVA and began pruning anything that wasn't part of his "sacred timeline."

Exactly. There are no Primes, everyone is a Variant. And all Variants are their own Prime. 

Miss Minutes was how He Who Remains kept tabs on and directed his minions at the TVA. And Miss Minutes was how HWR gave Ravonna whatever that was that will probably give him some sort of edge in the new phase of his existence, and I think her stepping through that's portal is what started the time lines branching.

And I think that was also the moment he'd been waiting for, the moment after which he didn't know exactly what was going to happen, and the moment after which it he had chosen to end that version of himself and be reborn. Sylvie's actions didn't affect any of that, her actions only affected her and Loki (and I agree that gadget had already been preprogramed to send whoever when through that portal there). 

1 hour ago, Cthulhudrew said:

I think the binary choice He Who Remains was offering was too simplistic- either you kill me and restart the Multiversal Wars and I'll end up coming back to life anyway, or else you take my place and prune the timelines. I think Loki was trying to find an alternative.

Yes, such a classic authoritarian tactic to set up the illusion of a binary choice between their rule and something nebulously bad, when it's not in fact, a binary choice at all.  Especially in this case, since he said that the war was cause by his own Variants!! But his solution was to control the actions of everyone else so there would be only one of him!!!  

Loki is still learning how to consider things instead of just react, and so I think he was floundering a bit, but I did think the same thing... that he just wanted time to consider and think about it. But he was wrong that they had any kind of control of the situation. HWR was just toying with them, like they were mice.

But I can understand Sylvie's actions too, since she's spent nearly her entire existence alone and only having herself to rely on. There are things about Loki she's drawn to and understands because they are on the same wavelength, but they're experiences are so different and they've both been so harmed and it takes time to deal with that trauma and to unlearn those patterns. It's just not something that happens overnight.

I did mostly enjoy the episode (and the whole series), but this show was essentially a 6 hour movie trailer for DS2. And at some point the MCU storytelling tactic of keeping everyone on the never ending hamster wheel of doom is going to wear thin, and people are eventually going to become less and less excited about something that never gives any kind of satisfying closure or catharsis. 

 

[FierceCritter]

10 hours ago, Cthulhudrew said:

All that said, for a season finale, this felt in some ways anticlimactic for me; there was just way too much exposition. I can't help but wonder if they could have seeded some of this better throughout the previous episodes, so that He Who Watches was really just tying things together rather than telling the entire backstory. 

This. I watched it a few hours ago and it was so unmemorable, it had little impact on me. And before I watched it, I was almost giddy with excitement to see how it wrapped up.

I was actually disappointed to see there's another season coming. I was looking forward to seeing reveals and wrap-ups in this episode, and I just feel like I'm left hanging.

I'm a huge MCU fan, and a past reader of some of the comics themselves. That said, I've only recently become really intrigued by Loki as a character, and my admiration for Tom Hiddleston in the role only grew with this series. HOWEVER, I really wanted to see Loki back in his green and gold, toothy grin, lighting sparks. I was hoping maybe that we'd see him in Phase 4 having actually tricked Thanos, still alive, still mischevious but maybe directing his mischief at some Big Bads for a change. I've had my fill of him in UPS Brown.

And - TH is a gorgeous piece of man. But he is very visibly aged from his first appearance as Loki, especially in the face. It's getting a little harder to buy him as (near) immortal. I'd rather see him play out the rest of his contract with the studio in films than on TV.
 

Edited July 14, 2021 by FierceCritter

[paigow]

If the existence of Kang variants represents the true cause of multiversal war, then each TVA should be hunting Kang variants because travelling between multiverses was commonly done.

[tennisgurl]

Oh Sylvie, curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal! Yeah, that sure stings doesn't it Loki? Of course, it might not be a betrayal so much as Sylvie being so single minded that she refused to listen to any other options, even when those options could be for the greater good, which is very consistent with her established personality. She would do anything and screw over anyone to get her revenge, even her favorite fellow Loki. I don't think that her and Loki becoming the benevolent dictators of time and space was the right call exactly, but I think that Loki was right in that they had to take a second to think about this. Loki has finally learned to put other people before himself, while Sylvie can still only think about getting her revenge, even if her choice could end up dooming countless people in a possible multiversal war. She can say that its a strike for the power of free will and for the freedom of other Variants, but its obvious that she just wanted to get back at the person she blames for her miserable life. 

I was trying to guess who the man behind the curtain would end up being, and as soon as he started talking about multiple versions of him in the future coming together, I guessed who he was. Ladies and gentlemen, Kang the Conqueror! Who has, in fact, gone by several names in several timeline and dimensions, so this all fits really well into his comic self. With all the talk of the multiverse and time travel, I really should have seen this coming ages ago. Kang is definitely a powerful enough villain to become a big movie threat, probably right up there with Thanos, so this is definitely not the last we will see of him. Or at least other versions of him, as this Kang, known as He Who Remains, seemed to be legit when he said how he thought that what he was doing was for the sake of peace. What he is doing is morally questionable to say the least, but he also isn't wrong that when one dictator is brought down, you have to beware of any other dictators that could quickly try to fill the power vacuum. I quite like Jonathan Majors in this role, and am very interested in seeing him as the multiversal conquering Kang and comparing him to how he played this older, more burned out version of Kang, who switches frequently between manic energy to unimaginable world weariness, which is a hard balance that he pulled off really well. It can be hard to do the "manic crazy villain" bit, but I think it helped that he didn't overstay his welcome and was only around in this one episode to really make an impact, and that his mania also had this feeling that he really does buy what he is selling. He does really think that what is has done with the TVA, while harsh, is necessary. Actually, is a rather Loki-ish himself, especially Classic Loki, being a brilliant, fast talking, but rather narcissistic person who spent years fighting and betraying various versions of himself as he tried desperately to gain power, only to realize that what he did was a mistake and went on to use trickery and deception to try and be better, leaving him tired and regretful, later inspiring someone else (in this case, our Loki) to grow. My favorite part with him though was the last "I'll see you again" wink, it was legit creepy, but without losing that amused smile once. He definitely still has an idea of what is coming, and that Sylvie might not like it.  

I guess now Loki and Sylvie can join the "we done fucked up the timeline" club alongside Marty McFly, various Flashes, the Legends of Tomorrow, Captain Kirk, the Umbrella Academy, The Doctor, and the idiot who stomped on that butterfly. 

The opening with lots of quotes from the MCU and from various historical figures as the camera span around the cosmos was really awesome, the branching timelines were also really beautiful while the castle at the edge of forever was eerie, this show has really impressed me with its cinematic scope, to the point where I really wish I could see it on the big screen, and its memorable musical score. Its one of the best and most interested in the whole MCU, which makes me excited to see if the whole MCU takes its music up a notch when it comes to orchestral score. 

It might suck that Sylvie ended up not listening to Loki and tossed him out into some new timeline, but I am much more upset that Mobius no longer remembers Loki. That relationship has really been built up well over the season and has been such a big part of Loki's character growth, so Loki suddenly losing that friendship, in a totally new timeline, has to feel like one last final kick to the teeth. He finally learned from his mistakes, putting other people first and appreciating the people who care about him, and now he has even less than what he had when he started at the beginning of the season. And now with a brand new, even worse Kang in charge it looks like. Somewhere, He Who Remains is chuckling about the devil you know. 

Who knew that Miss Minutes had so much going on? Not only was she pretty damn sinister when she introduced He Who Remains, she is clearly the person (?) at the TVA who knows the most about whatever is going on, even more than Renslayer given she gave her some mysterious information that caused Renslayer to run off to look for something. Does Miss Minutes have her own agenda? Will she emerge victorious when the Kang's are defeated? I cannot believe I am asking that about a wacky southern accented living cartoon, but here we are. 

Its a bit hard to rank this with the other Disney+ Marvel shows, as this is clearly a season finale and not a series finale, with more clearly on the way, unlike WandaVision and Falcon and the Winter Soldier, which were clearly one and done series, albeit with aspects that will definitely come into play later. I really loved all three, but I would probably rank them as Wanda, Loki, then F+WS, depending on how season two of Loki goes. I am just really loving what Marvel is doing in their TV wing now, having more time to tell their stories in television format has allowed them to get a LOT more experimental and morally complicated, all three shows are really different from each other, offering different viewing experiences, while also feeling like they are all connected. 

So when do we meet Alligator Kang? And when will Mobius finally get his jet ski? Tune in next season to find out!

Edited July 14, 2021 by tennisgurl

[Abra]

Sophie has been outspoken from the beginning about her goal to take down the TVA/whoever is behind it. Just because it didn't align with what Loki wanted in that moment doesn't make what she did a betrayal. You could see her motives from space, and the two whole days of gross selfcesty relationship building with Loki were not going to deter her from that or be enough to heal her trauma.

[Sakura12]

Well one thing always remains the same, a Loki always betrays. 

Otherwise this finale was a lot talky, talky. It was all basically an episode of exposition. Lol. They probably needed more since non comic fans will have no idea who that guy was. But I suppose it became that one didn't matter. The new variant we'll meet in the movies is the one that matters.

As for Slyvie if she's the reason we get Deadpool and the X-men in the MCU, I'm all for it. 

 

[Featherhat]

49 minutes ago, Abra said:

Sophie has been outspoken from the beginning about her goal to take down the TVA/whoever is behind it. Just because it didn't align with what Loki wanted in that moment doesn't make what she did a betrayal. You could see her motives from space, and the two whole days of gross selfcesty relationship building with Loki were not going to deter her from that or be enough to heal her trauma.

I don't think her wanting to murder Kang or disagreeing with Loki was a betrayal but the kiss then zapping him to a version of the TVA was the betrayal part. Although that was indeed so obvious that Loki should have seen it coming despite his feelings for Sophie. And it is payback for all the times he betrayed his own loved ones. 

I completely understand why she did it and no one can say it was out of character but for me it was frustrating because if she'd been able to see an inch past instant stabification she would realise that there was a potential option 3 or 4 out there that would actually benefit her more in the long run.. The clock wasn't ticking down on a doomsday scenario, she could have at least heard Loki out and then go ahead if she still thought he was picturing ruling the timeline. Then again that's also very in character for any Loki to not be able to help themselves and make things more difficult. 

I do think she was regretting it with the crying and possibly has realised that she's just opened up a giant Kang's Box. 

I have no sympathy for Kang or the TVA as an organisation but there always seems to have to be something at least watching over time in fiction and this show sticks to tropes pretty thoroughly so I expect a kinder, gentler TVA or something to form to Legends of Doctor McFly History Monks it into place occasionally. There's a medium between chaos and dictatorship. Ravonna's going to be interesting to watch to see how deep with this cult like denial she goes and if she comes out the other side. 

 

Edited July 14, 2021 by Featherhat