S05.E13: Brotherly Love

[BC4ME]

5 hours ago, coconspirator said:

Adoptees have complicated feelings. Yea, it is often for the best that they are placed with a different family but that doesn’t negate the grief experienced by the loss of their history and “what might have been.” I think it goes along with what Randall said about the expectation of 100% gratitude at all times. It’s possible to love and appreciate an adoptive family and to mourn what never was, and sometimes adoptive families don’t make space for those feelings or will take it personally.

As a white person I certainly can't appreciate what Randall's life growing up was like, however, I can imagine the depth of the burden of being different from the rest of my family every minute of every day. And it seems like a pretty big deal to one's development to constantly have those feelings.

And his adoptive parents had THE BEST of intentions, and on the whole, did an exceptional job. The writers illustrated very well the guilt of a child in such a situation in the scene of the young Randall thinking about his ghost family then the reality of the very kind, loving and well meaning adoptive parents calling him out of his imaginary family back to his real family at the table in a most inclusive way. I actually burst into tears at Rebecca's loving demeanor in that scene. That's just a lot for a little kid even minus Kevin's digs along the way.

It's not surprising to me that he had a perfect ghost life in his mind. That's what little kids do to cope. Many such fantasies can get brought into one's adult life for comfort. 

In my mind, yes, Kevin suffered from being ignored. But this is not that uncommon in families with more than one kid. It is more of a normal experience to overcome. Randall's experience was more damaging, again, even despite the good circumstances he grew up in. And I'm sorry but IMO it is about race. And I hope this show and particularly this episode succeeds in its goal to open up more people to consider what his life, even with a good adoptive family must've been like.

I thought it was an outstanding episode to get a small peek into Randall's life.      

   

[tribeca]

Kevin gave a painting to Tess and Annie in early season and said no one not even Kate knew he painted.   This episode shows Kevin had a painting in his room and he told Randel it was his work.  Randall asked Kevin if he still paints and Kevin says no.  
 

[Crs97]

I am trying to imagine the reaction if Rebecca talked about having a ghost fantasy where Randall isn’t there because they had Kyle, where they didn’t “stick out” as a family, where she didn’t have to worry about different barbers or feeling “othered” at the PTO, where Kyle was this perfect kid with no anxiety issues and no need for all the special attention, where he got along perfectly with Kevin and Kate, and she sighed about how she is grateful for Randall, but . . .

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 4/14/2021 at 7:23 AM, Crs97 said:

I am trying to imagine the reaction if Rebecca talked about having a ghost fantasy where Randall isn’t there because they had Kyle, where they didn’t “stick out” as a family, where she didn’t have to worry about different barbers or feeling “othered” at the PTO, where Kyle was this perfect kid with no anxiety issues and no need for all the special attention, where he got along perfectly with Kevin and Kate, and she sighed about how she is grateful for Randall, but . . .

I don't think this is the same at all. Rebecca (with some persuasion) chose to raise Randall. Randall didn't choose to be raised by Rebecca and Jack.

Plus, it is explicitly stated that Randall loved his family so much, they were part of his fantasy.

On 4/14/2021 at 7:04 AM, tribeca said:

Kevin gave a painting to Tess and Annie in early season and said no one not even Kate knew he painted.   This episode shows Kevin had a painting in his room and he told Randel it was his work.  Randall asked Kevin if he still paints and Kevin says no.  
 

I thought of that, too. Maybe that was the last time he painted.  He's had a lot going on in his career and personal life since he was sleeping in Randall's basement.

Did Beth's mother go skating,  too?

Edited April 15, 2021 by ItCouldBeWorse

[coconspirator]

21 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

I am trying to imagine the reaction if Rebecca talked about having a ghost fantasy where Randall isn’t there because they had Kyle, where they didn’t “stick out” as a family, where she didn’t have to worry about different barbers or feeling “othered” at the PTO, where Kyle was this perfect kid with no anxiety issues and no need for all the special attention, where he got along perfectly with Kevin and Kate, and she sighed about how she is grateful for Randall, but . . .

But I think parents do have their fantasies of the “perfect family” that will never be spoken out loud. Maybe it’s because a child was born with a disability and there’s a ghost fantasy where the child they love is able to walk or talk like everyone else. Or a child begins to struggle with substance abuse and the ghost fantasy erases that painful part. It wouldn’t mean the parent doesn’t love their child unconditionally and it wouldn’t mean they were ungrateful; it seems normal for people to wonder “what if” when there are painful real life issues. 
 

In other words, if the character of Rebecca was a real person I would not be surprised if she had moments where she imagined what life would have been like if Kyle had lived, and then felt terribly guilty for erasing Randall. 

[greekmom]

7 hours ago, chocolatine said:

I'm neither a psychiatrist nor an adoption expert, so maybe I'm missing something, but the "ghost kingdom" sounds like a terrible idea. How is wallowing in self-delusion supposed to help anyone? While Randall was imagining the idyllic dinner scene, I was imagining William and Laurel passed out in a flophouse and little Randall licking their heroin spoons because he hasn't been fed all day.

 

7 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

It would be nice if Randall stopped romanticizing his birth parents.  They were both seriously troubled people.  It's good they got their lives together eventually, but part of the reason they did was because they did not have to raise a child. 

Word to both.

Randall needs a therapist would will spell out exactly what his life would be like if he was a)kept by William and Laurel or b) left in the system to be adopted by a nice middle class black family.   The stats that it would have happened would have been minimal as a baby. He would have been put in the foster care system with no family.  Randall needs to wake up, smell the coffee and be grateful for being adopted by a nice middle class family straight from birth.  Look at Deja and her issues in the first season she was introduced to us.  Being in and out of the system just does a number on you.  And didn't Rebecca and Jack have those family friends that Randall use to go to that were black? They did the best they could under the circumstances and Randall wouldn't have gone to that fancy school with either a or b options above.

Sorry guys. I really hate the Randall character. So far almost as much as I dislike Kate.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

7 hours ago, pennben said:

I am just over all of Randall’s demands for apologies from everyone. Period . Full stop. Seriously?  Any chance there is some point in the future Randall takes ownership of his life? 

also, I was ready to cut a bitch in Jack. You take 2 kids out of 3 to meet Mr Rogers?  Yah, even Mr. Rogers would look at you sideways for that move!

Maybe Kate didn't care about Mr. Rogers?  Not everybody did.  Plus, this was possibly a limited time opportunity.  (Yeah, I know you were kidding.)

7 hours ago, phalange said:

Or as Daniel Tiger called it, it’s his “neighborhood of make-believe.” I loved that scene with little Randall talking to Daniel Tiger because he needed someone to tell him he wasn’t a bad kid for having make-believe parents.

Do people know that Fred Rogers was the puppeteer for Daniel Striped Tiger?  So, Randall was actually interacting with Mr. Rogers himself!

[Spartan Girl]

9 hours ago, Crs97 said:

Has no one ever honestly asked Randall why he thinks a childhood with his birth parents would have been so idyllic, considering his mom went to jail and both were addicts?

Honestly, I don’t think it’s terrible that Randall can’t help fantasizing what could have been with his birth parents, especially now that he knows their whole story. Yes, that dream sequence with William and Laurel with little Randall at the end probably wouldn’t have happened in reality. But it’s understandable that Randall would wish they had gotten clean and the three of them had gotten together, even if it’s not realistic.

Look, we all love to dump on Randall for all the reasons that have already been said. And yeah, the show doesn’t handle adoption too well. But Randall having complicated feelings about his family is understandable; he loved his adoptive family and wouldn’t trade them for anything, and he had a good life with them but that didn’t mean he didn’t feel othered or singled out (mostly by other people).

Kind of wish little Randall had gotten to talk longer with Daniel Tiger aka Mr. Rogers. That scene was adorable.

And yes, the cab driver that kicked out Kevin and Randall was awesome.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I was so jealous that Randall and Kevin got to see Mr. Rogers in person!

I loved that the cab driver kicked Kevin and Randall out of his cab once they started fighting. We need more characters like him who aren't here for the Pearson bullshit. I was glad that Randall and Kevin were too drunk/angry to even attempt a Pearson monologue to convince the cab driver to let them stay in his cab.

This episode felt very much like a play, complete with the brief changes of location (outside, the neighbor's steps, back to Randall's house). I had the same feeling when I watched One Night in Miami and only found out afterward that it was originally a play so it all made sense.

[doodlebug]

10 hours ago, ByaNose said:

Randall is still a wet blanket. Kevin was really trying. He could have walked through fire & it still wouldn’t have been enough for Randall. I liked how all the girls were glad to see Uncle Kevin. 

People like Randall are so emotionally exhausting to be around.  Kevin comes cross-country to try to mend the relationship, but a gesture is not enough.  Kevin has to figure out what is going on in Randall's head and try to meet his unspoken expectations for the reunion.  If Randall wants to hold Kevin to that standard, he needs to TELL him what he wants; not expect him to be psychic.  It also seems Randall doesn't have a clue what it was like to be Kevin in their family, with their parents clearly favoring the other 2 kids.  It would be nice if he could do for Kevin what Kevin tried to do for him; see it from the other side.

I hope the show will move on to other things now.  I am glad that Randall apologized at the end.

[gonzosgirrl]

I'm an adopted child (as an infant) who always knew I was adopted. Certainly I had moments of being made to feel other-than, some of which I've shared here in the past. And certainly I had my share of fantasies of who my 'real' parents were, especially when being punished or denied something I wanted, lol. But my parents loved me, every bit as much as Rebecca and Jack loved Randall, and it would never, in a million years, have occurred to me to wish I wasn't adopted. And Randall knows who his birth parents were now, and yet he's still living in the ghost-family fantasy and ignoring the fact that both his parents were drug addicts - regardless of the saintly back stories given them - and there's every possibility he would have ended up orphaned or at least removed from their lives and grown up in the system anyway. He doesn't have to be eternally grateful, but damn, he shouldn't be actively ungrateful either. I really hate that the writing has taken me to this place where I can't have sympathy or empathy for the character that was once my favourite.

[Crs97]

It was after Mr. Rogers died, but we took our four little boys to Idlewild, and four of Mr. Rogers’ friends were there, including Mr. McFeely!!  They were every bit as lovely as you would imagine them to be.  It was a very hot day, and they had a fan but everyone insisted that Mr. McFeely get the fan and kept checking on him.  I offered for them to sign just one photo to our family, but they insisted each child receive his own personalized.  They mentioned Mr. Rogers with such fondness as they signed photos for us.  “Lovely” is the only word to describe each of them.

 It also seems Randall doesn't have a clue what it was like to be Kevin in their family, with their parents clearly favoring the other 2 kids.  It would be nice if he could do for Kevin what Kevin tried to do for him; see it from the other side.

 

I was especially annoyed that we had to get another dig at Kevin’s acting.  Apparently he is very good, but you wouldn’t know that by Randall or his neighbors.

Gonzosgirrl, my husband is adopted and gave up the show, bothered by the anti-adoption feel.  There is a compelling theme to explore here, but this show isn’t doing it justice IMO.  So far Kate reached out, and Randall made her cry.  Kevin reached out, and Randall wasn’t satisfied.  Families are messy no matter how they are formed, and at some point, especially by age 40, a child has to let it go and hope their children will be willing to show the same grace about their own mistakes.

Edited April 14, 2021 by Crs97

[Good Queen Jane]

1 hour ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Did Beth's mother go skating,  too?

Yes, there was a scene in the background where Kevin told her it was nice to see her again when Beth and Randall were on the couch talking at the end.

[nixgirl28]

9 hours ago, LexieLily said:

I'm white, I don't pretend to understand Randall's experiences, but I felt like Randall came into the discussion with Kevin looking for a fight and determined not to hear him. 

Also, where was Phylicia Rashad during the girl's day? 

She was upstairs listening, taking notes for Beth. 

Jk! I thought she'd went with the girls, but she didn't walk in with them, so idk.

[Racj82]

7 hours ago, pennben said:

And then, on top of all that, when they were adults that really hadn’t spoke much in years, it was up to Randall to run away from a great job on the first day to save Kevin from a panic attack.......oh wait, I’ve got that backwards.  
Again, I ask, how many apologies does grown up Randall need before he owns & apologizes for his own stuff?

It was never all good or all bad in the Pearson household or between these two. People can keep bringing up good things Kevin has done. Great. That doesn't mean that there aren't things that both of these guys needed to deal with. 

[ams1001]

8 hours ago, 3 is enough said:

Not wanting to minimize what Randall went through as a black child adopted by a white family, but we have seen so many examples of how Kevin was pushed aside and ignored because Randall’s feelings were more important. Does he remember nothing about those incidents?

We even saw it at Mr. Rogers. The guy handing out the passes assumed Randall wasn't with Jack and Kevin because he didn't look like them, and Jack's response was to try to get Randall a better seat while Kevin stood to the side hearing this and looking sad. (Then Jack wonders why Kevin is acting out, saying he can't see and wants to switch seats with Randall, and then wanting to go to the park instead.)

1 hour ago, coconspirator said:

But I think parents do have their fantasies of the “perfect family” that will never be spoken out loud. Maybe it’s because a child was born with a disability and there’s a ghost fantasy where the child they love is able to walk or talk like everyone else. Or a child begins to struggle with substance abuse and the ghost fantasy erases that painful part. It wouldn’t mean the parent doesn’t love their child unconditionally and it wouldn’t mean they were ungrateful; it seems normal for people to wonder “what if” when there are painful real life issues. 

Or their child is a lesbian with a they-friend, instead of a boyfriend, which we saw Beth struggling with last week.

1 hour ago, greekmom said:

And didn't Rebecca and Jack have those family friends that Randall use to go to that were black?

Didn't Randall say (or at least imply) that he didn't have any black adults in his life (hence his fantasy parents being the weatherman and the librarian). They seem to have forgotten all about the friend from the pool (despite the fact that they had pictures of them in the house, implying that they remained friends for a long time).

[Haleth]

I can't begin to understand what it's like to grow up as Randall did.  Neither can I understand growing up with a sibling of another race as Kevin did.  It just seems to me that Randall wasn't being helpful (initially) in making Kevin understand what he (Randall) needed to hear.  I still don't get it.  Since one conversation won't resolve the problems they should talk to a counselor together. 

Surely Randall knows what life would have been like with William and Laurel.  He knows it would not have been a bed of roses and he would likely not have anything he has now, including his beautiful family.  I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with having a fantasy since we know he loves the family he grew up with.  He doesn't seem to be in the same place as the woman last week who told her perfectly lovely adopted family she'd rather have been with the bio mother who gave her up.  You can imagine another life without regretting the one you have.

[Ohiopirate02]

12 minutes ago, ams1001 said:

Didn't Randall say (or at least imply) that he didn't have any black adults in his life (hence his fantasy parents being the weatherman and the librarian). They seem to have forgotten all about the friend from the pool (despite the fact that they had pictures of them in the house, implying that they remained friends for a long time).

Randall created his ideal parents before meeting that family at the pool.  I also cannot see him using people he actually knows IRL as his imaginary parents.  That breaks the illusion.  Obviously that weatherman (what a waste of Brandon Victor Dixon) is the first black man Randall saw on a regular basis.  And the librarian is also someone he knows but not really.

[kili]

Quote

But, this show seems to completely gloss over that we have seen many times that Randall could give back as good as he got.  He belittled Kevin quite often for his lack of academic accomplishment. 

I thought it was a little blind-sided of Jack to get all upset and threaten Kevin's coach for calling Kevin stupid. Randall never missed a chance to call Kevin stupid right in front of Jack and Jack let that slide. If Kevin thinks he's stupid, it is because his own family taught him that and his coach just put the icing on that cake. 

That kind of thing happens in real life. Parents can have favourites and be completely blind to it. 

Quote

Kevin gave a painting to Tess and Annie in early season and said no one not even Kate knew he painted.   This episode shows Kevin had a painting in his room and he told Randel it was his work.  Randall asked Kevin if he still paints and Kevin says no.  

Kevin was a lot drunk when he told Randall he did the painting. Maybe he forgot? He'd certainly remember what Randall thought of the painting when he was sober and that would cause him to keep his painting a secret. Or it might be that they knew Kevin took a painting class, but not that he has continued painting for 20 more years. Or the writers messed up.

With all the personal security cameras around these days, I was worried that the entire street debate would end up on TMZ. Randall fell into the classic spare key problem - he put the keys he got from the neighbour into the junk drawer. The backup is gone! Neighbour didn't seem to like him all that much anyway (pick the neighbour on the other side going forward). Why didn't they try the back door? The burglar got in that way and they could have talked out their issues with the basil plant facilitating.

[Bean421]

10 hours ago, coconspirator said:

Adoptees have complicated feelings. Yea, it is often for the best that they are placed with a different family but that doesn’t negate the grief experienced by the loss of their history and “what might have been.” I think it goes along with what Randall said about the expectation of 100% gratitude at all times. It’s possible to love and appreciate an adoptive family and to mourn what never was, and sometimes adoptive families don’t make space for those feelings or will take it personally.

I'm an adoptive parent and Little Bean is only 9 but he feels and ENOURMOUS sense of loss from his birth family. Sometimes he gets sad and says he misses "his old mom" and I hold him until he feels better. He's been with us since birth and never met her but this feeling of "what might have been" is completely normal and if you don't understand that adoption is rooted in loss and grief you probably shouldn't do it. I don't expect my son to be grateful he was adopted by us. He never asked for it. I don't expect my Bio Bean to show deference for being born so why pass that on to Little Bean? All children deserve happy, healthy, stable families. 

I'm hopeful now that Randall and Kevin have had this initial talk they can approach other conflicts (i.e. Rebecca's medical needs) without all of the toxicity. 

[txhorns79]

22 minutes ago, Bean421 said:

if you don't understand that adoption is rooted in loss and grief you probably shouldn't do it.

I disagree that adoption is rooted in loss and grief.  Children are given up for adoption for a variety of reasons.  With Randall, I feel like his issue at this point is that after getting to know William and learning about dead/not dead Laurel, he's become more invested in his what if fantasy, and that has led him to find greater and greater fault with his adoptive family.    

[Ohiopirate02]

27 minutes ago, Bean421 said:

I'm an adoptive parent and Little Bean is only 9 but he feels and ENOURMOUS sense of loss from his birth family. Sometimes he gets sad and says he misses "his old mom" and I hold him until he feels better. He's been with us since birth and never met her but this feeling of "what might have been" is completely normal and if you don't understand that adoption is rooted in loss and grief you probably shouldn't do it. I don't expect my son to be grateful he was adopted by us. He never asked for it. I don't expect my Bio Bean to show deference for being born so why pass that on to Little Bean? All children deserve happy, healthy, stable families. 

I'm hopeful now that Randall and Kevin have had this initial talk they can approach other conflicts (i.e. Rebecca's medical needs) without all of the toxicity. 

This is the stuff Randall needed to share with his adopted parents, but a man like Jack would never be able to allow it to happen.  Jack bottled up his past and his emotions and he expected his sons to do the same.  Randall might have tried with Rebecca, but if Jack noticed it made her sad, he would have nipped it in the bud immediately.  

[Evie]

Randall had an attitude from the start. Kevin came across as sincere; It felt like high and mighty Randall just decided to grace Kevin with an apology there at the end. I know Kevin went there specifically to talk about Randall's experiences growing up, but like others, I wish Kevin had gotten a chance to talk about how it felt to be left out, especially since we saw it again in the childhood flashbacks. 

I understand Randall has complicated feelings about being adopted, but I'm frankly tired of hearing about it. Let William and Laurel stay in Randall's ghost kingdom and move on to other stories for Randall. 

[Liquid6]

I’m a 41 year old black man, so of course EVERYTHING that Randall suffers from makes perfect sense to me. That’s why it breaks my heart to come into this forum weekly and see all of the “Randall’s entitled, whiney, ungrateful, selfish etc.” comments from people who will NEVER understand Randall’s side for the obvious reason. Randall taught Kevin a valuable lesson in this episode that no he doesn’t believe that Kevin is a racist, he just wants Kevin to be aware of the micro aggressions that he has spent a lifetime displaying. That was a great lesson for all white people but instead, it’s been misconstrued as another example of “Whiney Randall” by non black people. It’s disheartening yet a clear eye opener of why race relations are the way that they are now. 

[greekmom]

2 minutes ago, Evie said:

I understand Randall has complicated feelings about being adopted, but I'm frankly tired of hearing about it. Let William and Laurel stay in Randall's ghost kingdom and move on to other stories for Randall. 

Word. I liked the fact that Randall had this cool analytics type job in season 1 and I would have preferred to see him deal with anxiety issues and kept the job then where he is now: councilman, ghost kingdom and always looking at the greener side of the fence of what could have been.  I feel that from the big Three, Kevin has moved the most forward, Kate has made some decent changes and Randall has actually moved backwards. 

Maybe I am wrong but this whole ghost kingdom seems to consume Randall's life.

[Jax7917]

4 minutes ago, Evie said:

Randall had an attitude from the start. Kevin came across as sincere; It felt like high and mighty Randall just decided to grace Kevin with an apology there at the end. I know Kevin went there specifically to talk about Randall's experiences growing up, but like others, I wish Kevin had gotten a chance to talk about how it felt to be left out, especially since we saw it again in the childhood flashbacks. 

I understand Randall has complicated feelings about being adopted, but I'm frankly tired of hearing about it. Let William and Laurel stay in Randall's ghost kingdom and move on to other stories for Randall. 

Randall’s always playing the victim . I really like and enjoy both kid and teen Randall , but they made adult Randall extremely annoying . Kevin apologized to him in a heart felt way . Instead of Randall shutting him down and refusing to tell Kevin what he really needed from him , he defaulted to ignoring him and having a monologue prepared in his head that he knew he’d give him at some point . Randall and Kevin were both kids . Kids make mistakes and kids aren’t always intuitive and able to understand everything , including micro aggressions . I don’t think Kevin needed to apologize for every little thing that he missed while growing up . I think his initial apology felt very sincere and IMO was more than enough but nothing is ever good enough for Randall . Now that they both have that closure , I think it’s time the show moves past this because I think they’ve beaten this horse to death and there’s so much more to explore in all of the Pearson’s lives . 

[txhorns79]

9 minutes ago, Liquid6 said:

That’s why it breaks my heart to come into this forum weekly and see all of the “Randall’s entitled, whiney, ungrateful, selfish etc.” comments from people who will NEVER understand Randall’s side for the obvious reason.

Randall was selfish.  This entire fight happened because Randall went behind Kevin's back and manipulated Rebecca into going into an Alzheimers study she already had said she did not want to participate in.  

[ifionlyknew]

3 minutes ago, Evie said:

I understand Randall has complicated feelings about being adopted, but I'm frankly tired of hearing about it.

It has taken over the show.  And for me it is not enjoyable to watch.  Let Randall get some therapy (offscreen hopefully) and focus on other things.  

When I first started watching I didn't dislike Randall.  I didn't really like him but he didn't bother me like Kate bothered me. But for the past couple years I have actively disliked him.  I understand he has issues but he is unreasonable in expecting people to understand them when it seems like he himself doesn't fully understand them.   

[Ohiopirate02]

9 minutes ago, Liquid6 said:

I’m a 41 year old black man, so of course EVERYTHING that Randall suffers from makes perfect sense to me. That’s why it breaks my heart to come into this forum weekly and see all of the “Randall’s entitled, whiney, ungrateful, selfish etc.” comments from people who will NEVER understand Randall’s side for the obvious reason. Randall taught Kevin a valuable lesson in this episode that no he doesn’t believe that Kevin is a racist, he just wants Kevin to be aware of the micro aggressions that he has spent a lifetime displaying. That was a great lesson for all white people but instead, it’s been misconstrued as another example of “Whiney Randall” by non black people. It’s disheartening yet a clear eye opener of why race relations are the way that they are now. 

I am white and will never fully understand where Randall is coming from, but the dude is selfish.  I base this opinion on his previous actions with respect to his wife and daughters.  Randall is Jack Pearson's son.  He has modeled himself after Jack, and Jack was supremely selfish.  The Pearson clan did what Jack wanted to do and Jack would steamroll over Rebecca to get his way.  We have seen 5 seasons of this.  Randall also did manipulate Rebecca into that drug trial overriding her wishes.  I will hold Randall accountable for these actions.  I look at it like this, if a white character would do it, then it's fair game to criticize.  And there are enough parallels between Randall and Jack for me to make this distinction.  

I do wish that Darnell would have made an appearance this season.  I miss the interplay between him and Randall.  Randall needs another black man to work off of, and I like when this show does explore the black American experience.    

On another note, you can ignore users here.  I do it with all of the concern trolls who pop up every time Chrissy Metz is on.  It doesn't completely block out the posts, they still show up if someone quotes them, but it does help.  

[tennisgurl]

Randall has become frequently a ridiculously self important self centered pain in the ass, but I cant blame him for imagining a fantasy world where he was adopted by a couple who looked like him or where he and his bio parents lived a happy life together, or that he has been really affected by a life of dealing with being black in a mostly white space. Lots of people imagine them having a different life or family, not because they aren't happy with their life or they don't love their family, but because they just like to play What If, especially as a kid. As much as I think the show has gone overboard with giving Randall all of this adoption angst, overriding any other plots he has, you can see how many microaggressions he has dealt with, how he hated feeling alone in his family and that he wasn't "really" one of them, it has clearly affected him a lot. 

Weirdly, as much as meeting William seemed like a really good thing for Randall, before he met him his life seemed really solid. He had a job that was not exciting but he seemed to like it and it made him a nice living, he had a great family life, and while he still had his issues with anxiety and he and Keven still had issues, things seemed pretty great. Then when he found William, it seemed to unleased all of this pent up angst he had about being adopted by a white family and started this intense need to connect with his biological family, which lead to him quitting his job, moving the family, which led to marital problems and other issues with his family, even more anxiety, this feud with Kevin, even more obsessing about being adopted, this massive midlife crisis where he changed jobs over and over trying to reconnect with his bio dad. I guess all of this was under the surface and it just needed something to push it to the foreground, and if its dealt with that might be better for him in the long term, but it does make you wonder how Randall's life would be right now if he had never met William. Now he seems to be basing his whole life on these what ifs and the ghost families, and while I don't think its bad for him to imagine these what ifs, but I don't know if its so healthy to be so obsessed with the family he never knew. 

I am really glad that Kevin and Randall finally got to hash a lot out, and the actors did a great job with all the nuances and the big moments. It did feel like a play, complete with a random bit with a quirky minor character, and I am hoping that this means that Kevin and Randall will be on good terms now that so much is out in the open. There was a lot I liked about this episode, but I really feel like we just got to the start of what Kevin and Randall were even fighting about. I know that both Kevin and Randall as well as the writers really wanted to focus on the racial aspects of Randall's childhood and later life, but it feels like it just scratched the surface. They never even got close to talking about Rebecca and the drug trail that Randall bullied her into, which was the reason for the whole argument in the first place, and there just seems to be so much more that was never even brought up. Like how their families tendency to never talk about their problems led to both Randall's many insecurities based around his race and anxiety as well as Kevin's people pleaser tendencies and drug addiction, or their feelings about Jack's death, or how Randall has always thought that Kevin's career was useless, or how Kevin never really got Randall's anxiety, or that both of the brothers resented and were jealous of each other whole also kept accidently hurting each other while also trying to reach out, and that failing because of their very different personalities, there is so much more to discuss, and maybe they will one day now that this big toxic unspoken thing between them is better, but I really wanted them to get more into it. I would have probably cut the flashbacks to older Randall and Kevin in LA to let them talk more, I think the kid flashbacks did a lot more to let us understand them and was really just variations on the same theme, which was hardly even really touched on. In the kid flashbacks, Randall is hurt when a guy assumes that Randall isn't Jack's son because of his color, he is clearly hurt so Jack gives him extra attention to try and make it up to him and remind him how much he is his son regardless of looks, but Kevin doesn't catch what happened so he just sees Randall the favorite getting more attention then him, so he acts out to try and get Jack's attention while Randall is sitting around being sad and feeling alone without understanding what Kevin's problem is. That is a really good way to show so many of their problems, I would have liked to have seen more of that aspect discussed, alongside Randall's issues surrounding being black. 

I am glad that they both apologized for their worst comments, about how Kevin wished they had never adopted him or that Jack died being disappointed with Kevin, its clear that they didn't mean that and were just pissed off and trying to hurt each other. Its been really sad seeing them so at odds, even when they moved passed being pissed into just being awkward, so I am fine with leaving some of that unsaid to just get moving, it just feels like a missed opportunity. 

Edited April 14, 2021 by tennisgurl

[OdinO.]

12 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

It would be nice if Randall stopped romanticizing his birth parents.  They were both seriously troubled people.  It's good they got their lives together eventually, but part of the reason they did was because they did not have to raise a child. 

If they weren't so out of it in opiates, they very likely might have aborted him. 

[chitowngirl]

3 hours ago, Crs97 said:

 

I was especially annoyed that we had to get another dig at Kevin’s acting.  Apparently he is very good, but you wouldn’t know that by Randall or his neighbors.

4 hours ago, Crs97 said:

 

I was especially annoyed that we had to get another dig at Kevin’s acting.  Apparently he is very good, but you wouldn’t know that by Randall or his neighbors.

Even Kevin acknowledged that the role they were talking about was not a great role and he was not good in it.

[kili]

Randall's Ghost Dad was a weatherman. Randall grew up to be a weather commodities trader (somebody whose weather pattern predictions were used to advise commodity purchases/shorts/etc).

Randall followed in his Ghost Dad's footsteps.

[BC4ME]

48 minutes ago, Liquid6 said:

I’m a 41 year old black man, so of course EVERYTHING that Randall suffers from makes perfect sense to me. That’s why it breaks my heart to come into this forum weekly and see all of the “Randall’s entitled, whiney, ungrateful, selfish etc.” comments from people who will NEVER understand Randall’s side for the obvious reason. Randall taught Kevin a valuable lesson in this episode that no he doesn’t believe that Kevin is a racist, he just wants Kevin to be aware of the micro aggressions that he has spent a lifetime displaying. That was a great lesson for all white people but instead, it’s been misconstrued as another example of “Whiney Randall” by non black people. It’s disheartening yet a clear eye opener of why race relations are the way that they are now. 

It breaks my heart too. Like the recent real life (much worse) incident where the Army officer was given conflicting instructions at a traffic stop, at gunpoint no less, to both get out of the car and keep his hands out of the window. He probably saved his life by not trying to undo his seatbelt and risk getting shot for "reaching for a weapon." I was extremely distressed at the seemingly million comments I read to the effect that all he had to do was follow orders. Clearly, many people can't imagine the life of being black today. It makes me so depressed over race relations in this country. I'm not black but I'm paying attention and trying to put myself in others' shoes. 

Everyone in the Pearson clan has their problems, Randall included. I love how the show tries to show us the side of each.   

[Bulldog]

3 hours ago, ams1001 said:

We even saw it at Mr. Rogers. The guy handing out the passes assumed Randall wasn't with Jack and Kevin because he didn't look like them, and Jack's response was to try to get Randall a better seat while Kevin stood to the side hearing this and looking sad. (Then Jack wonders why Kevin is acting out, saying he can't see and wants to switch seats with Randall, and then wanting to go to the park instead.)

I'm willing to give a pass to the Mr. Rogers staffer based on how the scene was framed.   We saw a black lady and her daughter.  Randall was standing next to them.  Then Jack.  Then Kevin.  The staffer clearly gave the lady and her daughter AND Randall lanyards before he got to Jack.  Now, we didn't hear the staffer ask the lady how many kids were with her like he did Jack.  If he did and she said one, then maybe I'm entirely off base.  But, I don't think its a wildly racist gesture for the staffer to have assumed that Randall was with her and not Jack.  If I'm being honest, I would have assumed the same thing.  Especially during the time period when those scenes are set.  

While I wasn't a fan of the episode overall, I will give the show some credit for showing a small amount of restraint.  When Kevin and Randall were locked out of the house, I fully expected them to try and break in, be caught in the act by a police officer who wouldn't believe Randall lived there, and only let them go when Kevin intervened.  Randall would then of course make the whole incident a teaching moment for Kevin, as he is apt to do.  So, good job show.  I guess.  

 

[BusyOctober]

All the discussion of ghost families is in the realm of “what if”, not reality. I think it’s completely reasonable for adoptees to think about how their different lives would be had they not been given up/taken away.  No child would know that his or her life would have been better with birth parent(s).  As the audience to someone expressing their own fantasies of their birth parents have NO idea whether the child or the parents would have been “better” or “worse” either.  We can’t make any judgements.

In the 1st season, we were told that Randall’s birth parents were addicts and abandoned him.  Over time we learn that William and Lauren were actually very nice people most of their lives. They got and stayed clean for the sake of the baby.  Lauren and William made a horrible decision after Randall was born, and William’ panic over that one lead him into running away out of fear. But no one can say for sure Randal was better being raised by Jack and Rebecca. Had the decision to give Lauren drugs not happened, or had she only gotten high, then sobered up and realized she needed to be clean and present for her child, William and Lauren could have gotten sober again.  They could have raised their child with love and given him many experiences he didn’t have with the Pearsons. They also could have divorced, and Lauren could have raised Randall in Louisiana. So, no Beth, no Annie or Tess, and Deja’s life would be very different. 

But we will never know.  Randall won’t ever know.  Just like I will never know what my life would be like if I had accepted a job offer to move across country and work in a huge design firm right out of college. I can fantasize that I would’ve been successful and rich, with a fabulous home in San Francisco.  But that one decision would mean I didn’t make the decisions to marry my husband, start my own company or adopt my daughter. 

That’s life. Decisions and actions have consequences.  Some work out in our favor, some are catastrophic.

 

 

[perkie1968]

13 hours ago, Gwendolyn said:

As someone else said, as a white person, I cannot full comprehend everything in Randall's perspective. But as a viewer I can go off the story they're telling, which is that however well meaning Jack and Rebecca were, they made Randall feel like he was different/other in his own family in their attempts to make up for not being his biological parents or errors they made in raising a child of a different race from their own. Only in going over board for Randall, they made Kevin feel like an outsider in his own family. Kate being the only girl was special in her own way, so she wasn't competing with Randall for her parent's love in the same way that Kevin did.

Rebecca literally told Kevin that Randall was easier to love. Randall KNOWS this, but because of his own issues and trauma chose to manipulate Rebecca into a trial clear across the country just as she and Kevin were starting to connect, knowing they were on borrowed time. While Randall acknowledged it was wrong to say Jack died ashamed of Kevin, not having Randal even entertain that Kevin has a legitimate gripe when it comes to the manipulation of Rebecca throws the balance of their argument out of whack.

Unfortunately Jack is dead and because of Rebecca's dementia, they cannot address their hurt with their parents so they take it out on each other.

Yes, Kevin was thoughtless and hurtful towards Randall, and I get they wanted to show all the ways and how long it had been brewing before that fight and the role race played in the resentment between siblings, but at the same time they have shown that Kevin will put Randall's well being above his own (missing the play when Randall had an anxiety attack), that Kevin respects Randall's intelligence and will ask him for help (the color coded notes for football and work), and he longs for what Randall has with Beth and the girls. All the while Randall belittles Kevin's work/talent/intelligence and yes he talked to Madison while she was in labor until Kevin could get there, but it cost Randall nothing to talk via facetime (compared to Kevin leaving the play).

If the show wanted this to be all about Kevin grovelling and getting Randall's forgiveness, then they needed a better backstory than the one they've portrayed on screen. Kevin can be a dick, but when it comes to the important things, the stuff that really matters he's there for Randall, can Randall say the same thing? Probably, but the show isn't showing it, they're telling so the balance of what they were going for versus the story they showed us was off.

I wanted to marry this post because it's so freakin' good, but since I legally can't, I will just repost it!!

[ams1001]

24 minutes ago, Bulldog said:

I'm willing to give a pass to the Mr. Rogers staffer based on how the scene was framed.   

I don't fault the staffer at all. But Jack's reaction was to go overboard making it up to Randall, at the expense of Kevin feeling like he's less important. And at ~5 years old, neither one of them can possibly fully understand what was really happening.

[Ohmo]

1 hour ago, Liquid6 said:

Randall taught Kevin a valuable lesson in this episode that no he doesn’t believe that Kevin is a racist, he just wants Kevin to be aware of the micro aggressions that he has spent a lifetime displaying. That was a great lesson for all white people but instead, it’s been misconstrued as another example of “Whiney Randall” by non black people. It’s disheartening yet a clear eye opener of why race relations are the way that they are now. 

I'm white, and I hear you.  (At least that's my attempt.) You said that Randall "just wanted," as if that was the only thing that Randall wanted.  However, there seemed to be more there that Randall wanted than just that.  I can relate to microaggressions.  Not about race but about disability. While improvement is always hoped for, microaggressions are always going to happen.  Today, tomorrow, next month, next year.  Kevin should listen to what Randall has said and should change his behavior. Yet Randall does seem exhausting to me---to himself as well as to viewers.  He's almost tortured. Some things Randall's going to have to place for himself. Put them in a place where he can process or let them rest.  Kevin's always going to be white, just like my siblings are always not going to have disabilities. Randall seems to be searching or trying to work out something and is not at rest.  I don't feel that the two of them are at peace.  Randall's unsatisfied in the sense that whatever Kevin said did not give him rest...and Randall needs to find some rest.  Kevin, Rebecca, Jack, and Kate are never going to be anything but white.  It feels like Randall's searching for that one great thing where there will be no explaining, no microaggressions, no nothing.  Such a place will likely never exist in his lifetime or mine. He's got to find some peace somewhere for himself, even if it is an imperfect peace.

[kili]

Quote

Even Kevin acknowledged that the role they were talking about was not a great role and he was not good in it.

When did he admit that? After the neighbour tells him she didn't like his Stallone movie and to stick with humour, he defends the role stating "All right, well, thank you.I had a Golden Globe nomination for that performance, but, ah… I’ll just be a clown." When Randall revisits the neighbours comments, Kevin just responds with a giving up "I know" (and Randall is just saying that comedy is his sweet spot).  Kevin just doesn't want to get distracted into arguments over his acting.

No disrespect to the neighbour or Randall, but the critics and directors seem to appreciate his dramatic acting. He's been cast by Ron Howard, M. Night Shyamalan and the buzzed about director who got De Niro to do his movie. The Stallone movie got 98% on Rotten Tomatoes and at least one Golden Globe nomination.  Kevin got cast as the Manny because of his build, but he got to keep the role because his acting instincts told him to interact in a serious moment with the baby.  

[marceline]

It's kind of funny to realize that Randall and Kevin keep defaulting to public brawling to solve their disagreements. Their fight on the side of the road reminded me of when they did the same thing in NYC and Seth Meyers interrupted them. I know that scene was supposed to be played for laughs but I was terrified that the police would roll up on Randall and Kevin fighting.

I couldn't help thinking that a lot of what was going on between Kevin and Randall is just basic sibling rivalry complicated by race. 

Seeing the flashbacks to the past made me remember when I loathed Kevin as a character. 

The conversation between Randall and Daniel Striped Tiger felt like Mister Rogers was really there. Randall said he had imaginary parents and Daniel/Rogers just rolled with it and why not? It was the Kingdom of Make Believe. It made me feel like a kid again. I don't know who wrote that scene but it was pitch perfect.

[gonzosgirrl]

3 hours ago, Liquid6 said:

I’m a 41 year old black man, so of course EVERYTHING that Randall suffers from makes perfect sense to me. That’s why it breaks my heart to come into this forum weekly and see all of the “Randall’s entitled, whiney, ungrateful, selfish etc.” comments from people who will NEVER understand Randall’s side for the obvious reason. Randall taught Kevin a valuable lesson in this episode that no he doesn’t believe that Kevin is a racist, he just wants Kevin to be aware of the micro aggressions that he has spent a lifetime displaying. That was a great lesson for all white people but instead, it’s been misconstrued as another example of “Whiney Randall” by non black people. It’s disheartening yet a clear eye opener of why race relations are the way that they are now. 

I think the problem is the show has not done a very good job of telling the story. In early seasons it was all about Randall wanting to know where he came from - a perfectly reasonable desire. There was no indication of these feelings of resentment from Randall, and even though they had sibling rivalries/fights, Kevin was shown to be the one who was always there for Randall in his anxieties. Jack & Rebecca fumbled with things, but they also tried to get it right (with the pool incident, with the martial arts, with the teacher/mentor). So to now make it all about micro-aggression and race seems contrived and a little manipulative. And to basically pit brother against brother, well that was bound to lead here. As long there is a story told in which there are two sides, people are, for the most part, going to choose one. I am sincerely sorry that it hurts you as a black man. I can promise that my feelings about the character of Randall, as written, have nothing to do with race.

[txhorns79]

37 minutes ago, marceline said:

The conversation between Randall and Daniel Striped Tiger felt like Mister Rogers was really there. Randall said he had imaginary parents and Daniel/Rogers just rolled with it and why not? It was the Kingdom of Make Believe. It made me feel like a kid again. I don't know who wrote that scene but it was pitch perfect.

Part of me wondered if Mr. Rogers was just hiding himself under that display the entire time on the off chance a child with issues happened to wander by.  

[Aliconehead]

I wish that Kevin and Randall would have had a shared experience like Mr Rogers that they actually DISCUSSED their different perceptions calmly.  Randall pointing out how he was “othered” while Kevin could have pointed out the reaction of the parents that minimized Kevin. They are both right and valid in their perception and feelings. 
My uncle adopted his wife’s child by another man, and the child has always felt “othered” even though they and my uncle are of the same race.  my cousin always had a ghost world with their bio dad and bio half sisters from the father.  They actually rejected and went no contact with my aunt and uncle for a time because of the adoption. They even created a ghost world where their parents abused them in order to justify their feelings (my a&u have two other kids that were there and deny ALL abuse, trust me it did not happen). The cousin does have a relationship with the bio sisters through bio dad, but bio dad basically said “I am not your dad, Joe is” and other than giving medical history did not want a relationship. At that point they returned to my a&u.  cousin was not in bio dads will but was in uncles will.  They had a great child hood and their sisters are happy and well adjusted but they still have issues with mom and resentment. 
 

kids of adoption don’t choose to be adopted for the most part, so many have issue with abandonment and not knowing their stories no matter how happy their childhoods were. This  was made worse for Randall since he was literally abandoned and he is a different race.  For me this rings true.  Not all have issues but it is common. 

[tribeca]

Was just thinking Randall’s children and the big three have a lot in common. 
Kate/Tess identity insecurity issues mom’s favorite 

Deja adoption the dads favorite 

Annie people pleaser the one who is left out. 

[Gwendolyn]

4 hours ago, Liquid6 said:

I’m a 41 year old black man, so of course EVERYTHING that Randall suffers from makes perfect sense to me. That’s why it breaks my heart to come into this forum weekly and see all of the “Randall’s entitled, whiney, ungrateful, selfish etc.” comments from people who will NEVER understand Randall’s side for the obvious reason. Randall taught Kevin a valuable lesson in this episode that no he doesn’t believe that Kevin is a racist, he just wants Kevin to be aware of the micro aggressions that he has spent a lifetime displaying. That was a great lesson for all white people but instead, it’s been misconstrued as another example of “Whiney Randall” by non black people. It’s disheartening yet a clear eye opener of why race relations are the way that they are now. 

I don't want to add to your heart break.

I don't see Randall as whiney (unless he is being whiney and then Beth or Deja are really good at calling him on it). I do think the character is a is a victim of Sterling K. Brown being six kinds of awesome and the early breakout start of the ensemble. So the writers over egg the pudding. On an intellectual level I know what they were attempting with this episode, but it's not necessarily the story they are showing.

Sometimes less is more. I think focusing on the sibling rivalry and Kevin's micro-aggressions, and less on Randall creating a ghost family that he's finally replaced with his biological parents might have helped. The taping of Mr. Rogers was a really good place to show how they started down this path and the role race played in it. Jack meant well, but he really hurt both of his sons. 5 yr old Randall knew he was being treated differently because he was black, as well as adopted. 5 yr old Kevin knew Randall was being treated differently because he was black, as well as adopted. It caused Randall to become anxious, set him on a pedestal of stress always trying to being grateful and live up to that special place Jack put him. Whereas Kevin learned he was not special, he was ordinary, but if he acted out Jack would pay attention. So Kevin got rewarded for being an *ss and reinforced bad behavior. The irony being Randall just wanted to blend in like Kevin could and Kevin wanted to stand out.

They set up the story that way, but the show only addressed Kevin's micro-aggressions towards Randall that resulted throughout the years from this. They showed how an action by Jack in their formative years set up a path, but they only addressed the Kevin side of the wrong. They've shown Kevin making an effort/making a pledge to do better. Yes, Randall admitted the line about Jack being ashamed of Kevin was wrong, but he still thinks he's right about Rebecca and the study and doesn't understand how that hurts Kevin. And Randall isn't a saint, he didn't take Kevin's micro-agressions lying down. He rarely passes up an opportunity to let Kevin know he's not as smart, that Kevin's career doesn't have value, that Kevin has failed at relationships, that Kevin is an addict, etc. The show harps on these things. So as viewer I'm waiting for Randall to see value in Kevin the way the show repeatedly shows us Kevin sees value in Randall.

As for the ghost family, I think it's a great idea and I understand it. But it was just a distraction from the story they're were trying to tell in this episode. Or at least the final shot where Randall replaced them with his biological family. Because you build this whole episode about how Randall feels like other in his own family, and then instead of closing on him being a part of the family who raised him (especially as Ohiopirate02 is so right Randall is Jack Pearson's son) or the family he has made with Beth and the girls, it's saying he's still not a Pearson, he's Laurell and William's son. The show othered Randall as the final tag!

[Blakeston]

I think one can accept that Randall's feelings and complaints are very valid, and also believe that the way he's handled things has been...well...self-absorbed and whiny.

The issue is how he makes everything about himself and his childhood. His own daughter was raised in a car by an incompetent mother. Yet whenever she talked about her experiences, all he could do was compare his childhood to hers.

He knows how painful discrimination is, and yet we see him paying no attention to his fresh-out-of-the-closet daughter, who will have to navigate America as a queer Black woman.

He's in a position as a city councilman to make real change for racial justice. And maybe he is, but we don't get to hear about it, because we just get to hear Randall obsess over and over again about how he didn't have the childhood he wanted.

[Artsda]

Randall was pretty annoying the entire episode, but glad they made up.

His dream new ghost at the end in Jack&Rebecca's house really annoyed me.  

[PRgal]

Just now, Artsda said:

Randall was pretty annoying the entire episode, but glad they made up.

His dream new ghost at the end in Jack&Rebecca's house really annoyed me.  

And not to mention, having William and Laurel not only CLEAN, but educated and middle class (okay, Laurel SHOULD have been educated and wealthy had she taken a more "typical" direction for her circle).  I guess he has a right to imagine things that way.....

[debraran]

11 hours ago, BC4ME said:

As a white person I certainly can't appreciate what Randall's life growing up was like, however, I can imagine the depth of the burden of being different from the rest of my family every minute of every day. And it seems like a pretty big deal to one's development to constantly have those feelings.

And his adoptive parents had THE BEST of intentions, and on the whole, did an exceptional job. The writers illustrated very well the guilt of a child in such a situation in the scene of the young Randall thinking about his ghost family then the reality of the very kind, loving and well meaning adoptive parents calling him out of his imaginary family back to his real family at the table in a most inclusive way. I actually burst into tears at Rebecca's loving demeanor in that scene. That's just a lot for a little kid even minus Kevin's digs along the way.

It's not surprising to me that he had a perfect ghost life in his mind. That's what little kids do to cope. Many such fantasies can get brought into one's adult life for comfort. 

In my mind, yes, Kevin suffered from being ignored. But this is not that uncommon in families with more than one kid. It is more of a normal experience to overcome. Randall's experience was more damaging, again, even despite the good circumstances he grew up in. And I'm sorry but IMO it is about race. And I hope this show and particularly this episode succeeds in its goal to open up more people to consider what his life, even with a good adoptive family must've been like.

I thought it was an outstanding episode to get a small peek into Randall's life.      

   

The Pearson's had many opportunities to talk to Randall (and his siblings) about race and explain to Randall about how people might treat him and why. He felt uncomfortable often and got to tell Jack when at Howard, how Jack felt is how he feels at home. That's when Jack took him to Vietnam memorial and said he felt he didn't fit in when he got home, and it would get better, but really it wasn't the same thing. He tried though. They overcompensated with Randall and that doesn't make dealing with a racist parent or teacher or store owner or classmate better. It's like giving Kate ice cream. He helped cause Kevin to resent Randall.  No one is perfect but I find it so difficult to believe they made his parents so clueless and Kevin and Kate. "I never knew" Please. With all going on in the world back then, there never was much discussion shown.

On a lighter note I laughed when someone asked if the writers wanted Tom Hanks for a cameo on TIU as Mr Rogers and they said they wouldn't say if they tried and were rejected but they thought it went well anyway. ; )  They also were asked about Kevin feelings with Kyle but they didn't seem to want to explore it although they acknowledged it would be normal to wonder about your brother you never got to know.

I