S01.E05: Trial By Fire

[MBayGal]

3 hours ago, RedDelicious said:

I don't want to be that guy (gal) either but the Alvez apartment is on 103rd street in East Harlem, just above the Upper East Side, not Harlem above Central Park North. 

Your insight is really interesting! Nice to hear from someone who’s been there, done that. Where/how did we learn that Elena lives on 103rd?  And where is her studio?  I thought at one point it was indicated that it was a couple of blocks. but somewhere else I heard it was 10 blocks.  

 

1 hour ago, Ashforth said:

There was so much to explore with Elena. Was she a mother at 15? Were she and Fernando happy before Miguel's cancer diagnosis? How did her vulnerability because of her son's cancer throw her life out of kilter and lead to the affair with Jonathan? Did she become an obsessed stalker or was Jonathan assuring her that they would be together? Was she an up and coming artist? So much left on the table

That would be a whole new show, or require several more episodes for this one.  Not that I would mind that, but that’s not the point of this show.

And when is Succession coming back?  Love that show!!

 

[cardigirl]

39 minutes ago, MBayGal said:

And when is Succession coming back?  Love that show!!

Stupid COVID.  Not sure if they've started filming again yet.  

The premise of this show is an interesting one, could you be married and in love with someone and yet not be aware that they are a dangerous psychopath?  Could you be completely blindsided after at least 15 years of marriage?  But, we've not been given much evidence of what that marriage was really like, we only were given a short glimpse. A character study of Grace, whether she is an inexperienced unworldly trusting person who could be easily fooled by a charmer like her husband, seems rather ridiculous, given the age of our stars. Even if they are playing at 10 years younger than their actual ages, could a 30-something, well-educated therapist be so swept off her feet by charm and charisma as to not notice a lack of empathy for suffering?  A pattern of lying or at least of omitting truths?  

That's where the show could have really been on a whole different level. Instead, it gives us nonsensical trial scenes.  And cliches of murder weapons that are hidden in homes instead of thrown away in the river as they should be. 

Edited November 24, 2020 by cardigirl

[AryasMum]

On 11/23/2020 at 1:16 AM, Mackey said:

Franklin should have said “psychopathic” rather than “psychotic.”  I’m trying to decide if this was clever writing or poor writing. Yes, people confuse these terms often (clever writing) but Grace is a psychologist and one might think that her dad would have picked up a few things over dinner and also he’s well educated (poor writing.)

Eh, I buy it. I’ve been a nurse for twenty years and no one in my circle has learned any medicine through osmosis. Donald Sutherland doesn’t seem the type to take any interest in his daughter’s work. 

On 11/23/2020 at 1:02 PM, spaceghostess said:

Henry’s not 10 — I believe it was established in a prior episode that he’s 13? It’s actually Miguel who’s 10,  but I take your point that a kid being the murderer would be horrible.

I believe he’s 12?

15 hours ago, cardigirl said:

Interesting review (no spoilers in it) from the Atlantic about the show, mentioning the things that I have said may have attracted my friend to this particular mystery. https://www.theatlantic.com/culture/archive/2020/10/the-gilded-messes-of-hbos-the-undoing/616860/

It also mentions Succession, a show that I think is brilliant, and that deals with the same social class as Grace and her father.

It is interesting, but I can’t say I agree with most of it. Yes, their wealth is sheltering them a lot in this process, but it’s a little extreme to suggest they’ve faced no consequences.  Jonathan has lost his marriage, his actions prior caused him to lose his job, Grace has been told to longer show up at the school, and if not for Grandpa, Henry would have been kicked out.  Even if it wasn’t shown, I wouldn’t be surprised if Grace’s practice has been negatively affected. Also, the article references the family’s cruelty. Other than Jonathan, and maybe Sutherland’s threat to the principal, where’s the cruelty?  What have Grace and Henry done to others?  In fact, Grace was the only one of the snobby women who treated Elena decently.  I’m missing something, I guess. 

[endure]

17 hours ago, Armchair Critic said:

Was Elena blackmailing Sylvia? I am suspicious why Sylvia would invite Elena into their group at her home.

I am now suspecting Sylvia just because she is going above and beyond trying to convince everyone of Jonathan's guilt.

 

Edited November 25, 2020 by endure

[AryasMum]

Am I the only one who thinks the driver the night of the party wasn’t “their” driver?  They don’t even seem to have domestic help, as Grace complained about having to clean up Henry’s messes in the kitchen. I think they paid for a driver for that specific event. 

15 hours ago, Norma Desmond said:

Occam's razor: If only Jonathan's and the husband's DNA were found on the murder scene, it's got to be one of the two. Unless the killer used astronaut gear.

Occam’s Razor tells me that the sociopath did it.   We’re aware of this behavior in Jonathan, but I’ve seen nothing sociopathic in Henry’s behavior. He’s tortured by not telling his mom about what he saw, he frets over the stability of his family, and his apology to Miguel seems so much clearer now when it seems he’s hiding his father’s murder weapon. Grace thought that 5 am goodbye was odd. I think Jonathan hid it and Henry found it and figured it out. Poor kid.  
 

I am disliking the method of storytelling. It’s so Mary Higgins Clarke, most of the plot is red herrings and setting every character up with a motive. 

4 hours ago, larapu2000 said:

100% right there with you.  Lily Rabe serves no actual point in the show unless she did it.  That's what I have worked out as to how and why.  That's also the reason Jonathan returned to the scene, to help her clean up the evidence and formulate a plan.

Lily Rabe is a big deal in the Ryan Murphy world, but outside that world she’s a lesser known actor. I could see her taking a small role to work with the illustrious cast, HBO, and David E. Kelly. It’s excellent networking. 

[RedDelicious]

34 minutes ago, MBayGal said:

Your insight is really interesting! Nice to hear from someone who’s been there, done that. Where/how did we learn that Elena lives on 103rd?  And where is her studio?  I thought at one point it was indicated that it was a couple of blocks. but somewhere else I heard it was 10 blocks.  

Reading up on the background of the story, hunting for spoilers 😁 It would jive because East Harlem is also called Spanish Harlem and the Alvez's appear to be hispanic.  I don't know where the studio is but it seemed like it was nearby because the boy ran there when he was supposed to be catching the bus.

Side note - I still don't know who did it or how, but also bc this is a television adaptation of a book, the adaptation doesn't have to follow the book plot exactly, right?  I'm wondering how they will button it up on Sunday and subsequently how that will compare to the book!

[RedDelicious]

11 minutes ago, AryasMum said:

Am I the only one who thinks the driver the night of the party wasn’t “their” driver?  They don’t even seem to have domestic help, as Grace complained about having to clean up Henry’s messes in the kitchen. I think they paid for a driver for that specific event. 

That's a really good point - in my mind the driver they use is Franklin's, not their own.

[Milburn Stone]

15 hours ago, DiabLOL said:

Why would one have an entire bed in a studio? You don't have one in your office! It's the same thing! She was definitely using it to have sex with other men while her husband looked after the kids.

So far, I think Jonathan, Franklin, Grace, Sylvia, Henry, the detective, both defense lawyers, the prosecutor, and the other doctor in the hospital were all sleeping with her.

[SourK]

2 hours ago, Ashforth said:

The actress who plays Elena is 25. I think that she has been exploited by this show because she was willing to do nudity. That's been pretty much the sole development of Elena's character. She was nekkid! I expect nothing more from David E. Kelley. To borrow a line from Fernando, he is vile.

 

Same. I was willing to go with it during the first episode, when I thought Elena would become more of a character, but currently her only traits are being naked and being dead, and I don't love that for the actor. I'm kind of disappointed that Nicole Kidman produced this and let that happen.

[dmc]

Jonathan is POS.  I wouldn't help him.  And Henry is covering for him, he might have even asked him.  I wouldn't put it passed him

[Ashforth]

1 hour ago, MBayGal said:

2 hours ago, Ashforth said:

There was so much to explore with Elena. Was she a mother at 15? Were she and Fernando happy before Miguel's cancer diagnosis? How did her vulnerability because of her son's cancer throw her life out of kilter and lead to the affair with Jonathan? Did she become an obsessed stalker or was Jonathan assuring her that they would be together? Was she an up and coming artist? So much left on the table

That would be a whole new show, or require several more episodes for this one.  Not that I would mind that, but that’s not the point of this show.

Shamelessly quoting myself.

@MBayGal, I respectfully disagree. The murder of Elena is the whole point of this show. Elena should have been developed as a whole person. Cut out the interminable scenes of Grace's walks, the close-ups of her darting bloodshot eyes, and the loving attention to her wig: hanging in her face! Blowing in the wind! Draped over the shoulders of her expensive coats! and there would have been plenty of time to tell us who Elena was within the six episodes.

Of course, that would require the tight storytelling that a mystery like this demands in order to be well done and satisfying to the audience. Instead we're getting a scattershot bunch of bullshit that seems unlikely to tie together in the end.

[dmc]

19 minutes ago, Ashforth said:

Shamelessly quoting myself.

@MBayGal, I respectfully disagree. The murder of Elena is the whole point of this show. Elena should have been developed as a whole person. Cut out the interminable scenes of Grace's walks, the close-ups of her darting bloodshot eyes, and the loving attention to her wig: hanging in her face! Blowing in the wind! Draped over the shoulders of her expensive coats! and there would have been plenty of time to tell us who Elena was within the six episodes.

Of course, that would require the tight storytelling that a mystery like this demands in order to be well done and satisfying to the audience. Instead we're getting a scattershot bunch of bullshit that seems unlikely to tie together in the end.

I agree with you, if they weren't going to give us more.  Why not start the show with her death, why give us all these provocative scenes that give more questions than answers.  There is a hint to me that she and Grace had a relationship then poof

Edited November 24, 2020 by dmc

[kendi]

2 hours ago, endure said:

I am now suspecting Sylvia just because she is going above and beyond trying to convince everyone of Jonathan's guilt.

That's the direction I'm heading also. She had an affair with Jonathon, he dumped her for Elena. He never "hired" her for any legal advice, that's how she was able to tell Grace that she knew he was fired. She was digging for info from Grace when she whisked her away from the school in the waiting cab. She's friendly with the prosecutor to ensure Jonathan goes away forever. As for how Henry got the hammer in his violin case I'm at a dead end. 

[qtpye]

3 hours ago, cardigirl said:

Stupid COVID.  Not sure if they've started filming again yet.  

The premise of this show is an interesting one, could you be married and in love with someone and yet not be aware that they are a dangerous psychopath?  Could you be completely blindsided after at least 15 years of marriage?  But, we've not been given much evidence of what that marriage was really like, we only were given a short glimpse. A character study of Grace, whether she is an inexperienced unworldly trusting person who could be easily fooled by a charmer like her husband, seems rather ridiculous, given the age of our stars. Even if they are playing at 10 years younger than their actual ages, could a 30-something, well-educated therapist be so swept off her feet by charm and charisma as to not notice a lack of empathy for suffering?  A pattern of lying or at least of omitting truths?  

That's where the show could have really been on a whole different level. Instead, it gives us nonsensical trial scenes.  And cliches of murder weapons that are hidden in homes instead of thrown away in the river as they should be. 

I love older actors (particularly women) getting work but their ages do not match up to their behavior.

2 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

So far, I think Jonathan, Franklin, Grace, Sylvia, Henry, the detective, both defense lawyers, the prosecutor, and the other doctor in the hospital were all sleeping with her.

It is annoying that all we have for Elena's characterization is "Object of everyone's desire". I can imagine David E. Kelley thinking that making other women want her makes this trope so much more interesting.

Edited November 24, 2020 by qtpye

[Kiss my mutt]

16 minutes ago, qtpye said:

I love older actors (particularly women) getting work but their ages do not match up to their behavior.

It is annoying that all we have for Elena's characterization is "Object of everyone's desire". I can imagine David E. Kelley thinking that making other women want makes this trope so much more interesting.

Exactly, which is why I would have liked to have known something else besides just “this” about her. 

[Ashforth]

3 hours ago, cardigirl said:

The premise of this show is an interesting one, could you be married and in love with someone and yet not be aware that they are a dangerous psychopath?  Could you be completely blindsided after at least 15 years of marriage?  But, we've not been given much evidence of what that marriage was really like, we only were given a short glimpse. A character study of Grace, whether she is an inexperienced unworldly trusting person who could be easily fooled by a charmer like her husband, seems rather ridiculous, given the age of our stars. Even if they are playing at 10 years younger than their actual ages, could a 30-something, well-educated therapist be so swept off her feet by charm and charisma as to not notice a lack of empathy for suffering?  A pattern of lying or at least of omitting truths?  

That's where the show could have really been on a whole different level. Instead, it gives us nonsensical trial scenes.  And cliches of murder weapons that are hidden in homes instead of thrown away in the river as they should be. 

This captures the weakness of the execution of this show. So much promise and so many possibilities wasted.

[LoveLeigh]

If Elena was a serious artist, how did she have time to sit in front of the school every day? 

Why did Elena's husband tell Miguel that Elena was in "the studio?" She never came home. If he thought she was in the studio, why didn't he go there when he woke up and saw she was not in the bed next to him or in the apartment? 

The only reason I do not think it is Fernando is because the murder weapon was in Henry's violin case. So the murder is connected to the Frasers. Also, it was washed clean. I do not think it was Jonathan because when he told Miguel he did not kill his mother, it really sounded convincing. Hugh Grant is a great actor and could pull that lie off but Jonathan Fraser is not an actor and HE could not have said that with such conviction.

So that narrows it down to Grace, Franklin, or Henry. I am thinking Franklin. Also, when Grace crawled into bed next to Jonathan I knew she is a nutbar. 

And have I said I am in love with Edgar Ramirez? I think he is a great actor. 

And has anybody noticed how much Ismael Cruz Cordova looks like Jeremy Meeks? 

Edited November 24, 2020 by DakotaLavender

[Kiss my mutt]

I’m surprised there is no home security cameras that would pick up any of this family’s comings and goings or if there was, that it wasn’t mentioned. That could shed some potential light on the possibility that one or more of them coile have been involved. You’d think that footage would have be subpoenaed.  Maybe next week? 

[buttersister]

5 hours ago, Ashforth said:

Wouldn't it be more likely that Jonathan would have refused to have children? Instead of having a child but refusing to get a dog?

I think fastidious Jonathan didn't want a messy dog in the house. Figured that from the jump, so actually didn't buy the 'killed his dog' story. Like I'm not so sure he was putting a slice of cheese on some bread when his toddler sister quietly snuck out of the house and under a car. I mean, we were rarely left at home alone as kids, but I can tell you the doors were closed and locked. 

Oh well. I still think Sylvia and Jonathan will turn out to be an item. And co-conspirators of some kind. But if the last shot is Grace wandering the city with that baby girl in a chest carrier, I'm never watching another David Kelly show.

[tabularasa]

Honestly every single character is unbelievable and unlikeable and the ending wouldn't explain a lot of things. So much time spent on Nicole's walking and not developing characters and moving the story forward. Anyway, I read an interview with Hugh Grant and he said it was difficult and frustrating to him because the writers changed their minds a lot and he wanted to know who he is playing. I do believe him. It'd explain so many red herrings, loose ends.

[Cosmocrush]

3 hours ago, SourK said:

I'm kind of disappointed that Nicole Kidman produced this and let that happen.

Ah ha!  I did not know Kidman produced this.   That explains all the "vanity shots" we get of her frozen but perfectly unlined face.  

Honestly, I'll take Hugh Grant's naturally aged face (which I still find handsome) emoting than an Oscar winning actress that can't express a single emotion (much less a complex one) because she's trying to look 20 years younger.  

[DiabLOL]

14 minutes ago, Cosmocrush said:

Ah ha!  I did not know Kidman produced this.   That explains all the "vanity shots" we get of her frozen but perfectly unlined face.  

Honestly, I'll take Hugh Grant's naturally aged face (which I still find handsome) emoting than an Oscar winning actress that can't express a single emotion (much less a complex one) because she's trying to look 20 years younger.  

This week's face was the worst for me. I could barely stand to look at it it was so uncanny valley. I am really disappointed in her. I feel like I'm watching an AI video game version of her at this point. 

 

[MBayGal]

3 hours ago, Ashforth said:

@MBayGal, I respectfully disagree. The murder of Elena is the whole point of this show. Elena should have been developed as a whole person. Cut out the interminable scenes of Grace's walks, the close-ups of her darting bloodshot eyes, and the loving attention to her wig: hanging in her face! Blowing in the wind! Draped over the shoulders of her expensive coats! and there would have been plenty of time to tell us who Elena was within the six episodes.

See, I didn’t really care so much about the details of Elena’s life — until you brought it up!  A little shallow of me 🙂 But I definitely agree about the time wasted on Grace’s walking and hair, and that could have been used to add details of Elena’s life.  But now we will never know:-( 

[JaneDigby]

20 hours ago, Norma Desmond said:

Occam's razor: If only Jonathan's and the husband's DNA were found on the murder scene, it's got to be one of the two. Unless the killer used astronaut gear.

I'm still all in on Jonathan-is-the-killer. Jonathan has to be the star and has to have all the cool toys. Not to fiction victim blame but Elena wasn't necessarily a naive creature in all this. She (allegedly) asked Jonathan to get her son a scholarship to Rearden. She semi-stalked Grace. She may have made a point of being at the fundraiser to get at Jonathan. My bet is that Elena got to be a problem for Jonathan, maybe she decided Grace deserved the truth or just wanted Jonathan to make a commitment. 

Henry confessing to seeing his father with Elena shows he was willing to keep secrets for dear old Dad. Would he be willing to hide a murder weapon?

[LoveLeigh]

2 hours ago, MBayGal said:

See, I didn’t really care so much about the details of Elena’s life — until you brought it up!  A little shallow of me 🙂 But I definitely agree about the time wasted on Grace’s walking and hair, and that could have been used to add details of Elena’s life.  But now we will never know:-( 

The details of Elena's life are crucial to this plot. She was an artist. As I asked above, how did she have time to sit outside the school? Would she not have spent the time in her studio? Why did they not investigate Elena's network in the art world? 

[Rabithed]

On 11/22/2020 at 10:38 PM, Enigma X said:

Although I am interested to find out whodunit, this series was really poorly executed.

Yes, I feel like it is lurching along, throwing in random scenes all willy nilly. Thrr red characters are all detestable to me especially Grace. When she was flirting with Jonathan in the phone before going to see him in the middle of the night!, I couldn’t believe she wouldn’t have thought his stupid joking was a huge red flag about his personality. A woman he admittedly “loved” was murdered, bludgeoned to death...HE is on trial for it and he’s acting like nothing  is wrong. She is insane for allowing him back in her life. So stupid. 

[hoodooznoodooz]

So do we think the hospital terminated Jonathan because Elena filed a complaint? And then carried his baby to term?

[LoveLeigh]

1 hour ago, Rabithed said:

I couldn’t believe she wouldn’t have thought his stupid joking was a huge red flag about his personality. A woman he admittedly “loved” was murdered, bludgeoned to death...HE is on trial for it and he’s acting like nothing  is wrong. She is insane for allowing him back in her life. So stupid. 

The whole thing actually deteriorated into stupidity. Grace crawls into bed with a man on trial for murder. 

And if Elena filed the complaint and he lost his job, why would he have anything to do with her? 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

On 11/22/2020 at 7:38 PM, Enigma X said:

Although I am interested to find out whodunit, this series was really poorly executed.

I never read the book so I found myself wondering if the poor execution was due to the show being faithful to a poorly written book or if the show took a good book and fucked it up.

17 hours ago, MBayGal said:

Where/how did we learn that Elena lives on 103rd?  And where is her studio?  I thought at one point it was indicated that it was a couple of blocks. but somewhere else I heard it was 10 blocks. 

In the first episode, we saw Miguel leave his building, walk down to the corner, make a left, cross the street, and then go into Elena's studio, which is why I was confused when they said in this episode that the studio was ten blocks from the Alvez apartment.

16 hours ago, AryasMum said:

Am I the only one who thinks the driver the night of the party wasn’t “their” driver?  They don’t even seem to have domestic help, as Grace complained about having to clean up Henry’s messes in the kitchen. I think they paid for a driver for that specific event.

Back in ye olden days before Lyft and Uber made it cheap and easy to get rides, people used car services. It was basically a fancier version of a taxi that you could schedule in advance. They had nice cars that would drive you wherever you needed to go and it could be as little as one ride (meaning you didn't need to sign a long term contract with the car service). I just assumed that Grace and Jonathan used a car service like that (rather than having someone who drove exclusively for them).

Edited November 25, 2020 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Johnny Dollar]

17 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

So far, I think Jonathan, Franklin, Grace, Sylvia, Henry, the detective, both defense lawyers, the prosecutor, and the other doctor in the hospital were all sleeping with her.

You forgot about Franklin’s maid. She looks guilty as sin. 

[Ashforth]

10 hours ago, hoodooznoodooz said:

So do we think the hospital terminated Jonathan because Elena filed a complaint? And then carried his baby to term?

I'm pretty sure that when Grace talked to Jonathan's former doctor colleague at the hospital, he said that Fernando had made the complaint that ultimately led to Jonathan being fired. He also said that Jonathan had entered into inappropriate relationships with the mothers of his patients in the past but that his relationship with Elena was so blatant that everyone knew about it. So there could have been complaints from the staff as well. 

Edited November 25, 2020 by Ashforth

[Rickster]

9 minutes ago, Ashforth said:

I'm pretty sure that when Grace talked to Jonathan's former doctor colleague at the hospital, he said that Fernando had made the complaint that ultimately led to Jonathan being fired. He also said that Jonathan had entered into inappropriate relationships with the mothers of his patients in the past but that his relationship with Elena was so blatant that everyone knew about it. So there could have been complaints from the staff as well. 

I don't remember the Fernando part, but I'm pretty sure the colleague said the behavior was so blatant that the staff complained and he was warned about it.

[Maysie]

Ugh, I'm so annoyed by this show! One more to go.

I don't think Henry killed Elena. It would entail him following/stalking his dad and Elena and I just don't find that plausible, though for as much thought as anyone gives their children on this show it isn't unreasonable that he'd be out running the city and his parents wouldn't know. But seriously, I just don't see it. When the hammer ended up in his violin case, I wondered if that was a new thing, and I have to believe it is (the last time we saw Henry practicing violin was at Franklin's). So I kind of think since Henry is living at Franklin's house, that the hammer was there. Now whether Henry found it and associates it with his mom, dad or granddad, I don't know, but I think it's more likely that Henry took the hammer, figured it belonged to his mom or grandfather, and hid it because I cannot wrap my head around any one of those three adults planting the hammer in the case (because that's especially loathsome). IF that is the case, that would lead me to Franklin because it's his house - Johnathan sure hasn't been there since the murder!

I don't like Jonathan, but I don't consider him a sociopath simply because his mother called him such. Again, more bad parenting (at least we know where Jonathan gets his from). I don't know, but if my kid was in any way involved with the death of a sibling, whether by accident or neglect, he'd be in therapy - especially if he's showing no signs of emotion or acknowledgment afterwards.

The trial was a hot mess, as everyone has mentioned. Sylvia waving at the prosecutor - hey that's not shady! The graphic pictures without warning was ridiculous and the fact that the children are attending the trial is more evidence that these people are absolutely shitty parents.

I'm leaning towards Grace being the murderer simply because Sunday night I dreamed Nicole Kidman was trying to kill my husband and me. She had a giant chain and padlock and was swinging it menacingly; she was going to beat us with it!

HBO is getting a little too good at stretching shows that should be one or two episodes into much more than they need. First The Vow and now this... this should have been a movie. I could have had an answer in two hours instead of wasting six weeks thinking about what a piss poor job they did with this.

[carrps]

Can't believe I forgot to check Previously for this show! Well, I forgot when it was on and binged the first four episodes just a week ago.

Anyway. I know a show is mediocre when about the only thing I'm noticing is the fashion and decor. Glad to see others are noticing that. Also, Kidman's face. I keep seeing Eric Stoltz in Mask. It's the same just on a smaller scale but with the same red hair.

I don't care about any of the people. I just am watching it to get through it. Sigh. I had hopes, but, y'know, Kelley......

[atlantaloves]

Hey, do we know that it was actually Elena that was killed? Is this a Gone Girl thing where she set it up? After all, they have told us a million times her face was GONE GIRL.  But like I said before, whoops, I KILLED HER. 

[carrps]

Oh, and one thing I forgot. I hate that everybody pronounces Elena's name wrong. It's Eh-LAY-na, not E-luh-nuh. 

[Melina22]

On 11/24/2020 at 4:28 PM, Ashforth said:

Cut out the interminable scenes of Grace's walks, the close-ups of her darting bloodshot eyes, and the loving attention to her wig: hanging in her face! Blowing in the wind! Draped over the shoulders of her expensive coats!

🤣🤣🤣🤣

Am I the only one who can't unsee the photo of Elena's bludgeoned face? Forget about the judge allowing the victim's son to see it. Why did the judge allow ME to see it? Now it's stuck in my brain. Ick. 

I've skimmed these pages pretty fast. Has anyone discussed Grace wandering the streets of NYC in her pj's? Because that's normal.

And yet we're told she just wants to be invisible. Which is why she wanders Central Park in giant floating curls and long green velvet coats. 

Finally, although I think Jonathan's lawyer is a fabulous actress, I was totally taken out of the court scenes by both her and the prosecutor's accents. I still don't totally understand why they had a British actress, an Australian actress, and a Danish actress all playing Americans in the same scene, with accents of varying degrees of dodginess. There must be equally gifted American actresses available. 

Edited November 25, 2020 by Melina22

[MBayGal]

I don’t know how to link something from Twitter to this list, but there is an article on PopSugar.com about all of Grace’s fabulous coats.  

[carrps]

19 minutes ago, Melina22 said:

Finally, although I think Jonathan's lawyer is a fabulous actress, I was totally taken out of the court scenes by both her and the prosecutor's accents. I still don't totally understand why they had a British actress, an Australian actress, and a Danish actress all playing Americans in the same scene, with accents of varying degrees of dodginess. There must be equally gifted American actresses available. 

This bugged me, too. Kidman's Australian; the kid, the attorney, and Grant are Brits; the dead women is Italian; Donald Sutherland is a Canuck!🤪

 

[Enigma X]

1 hour ago, carrps said:

Oh, and one thing I forgot. I hate that everybody pronounces Elena's name wrong. It's Eh-LAY-na, not E-luh-nuh. 

My best friend's daughter's name is Elena pronounced the first way you have it, and I have a friend where it is her name and she (and her parents) pronounces it the second way. 

Edited November 26, 2020 by Enigma X

[Melina22]

2 minutes ago, carrps said:

This bugged me, too. Kidman's Australian; the kid, the attorney, and Grant are Brits; the dead women is Italian; Donald Sutherland is a Canuck!🤪

 

And the prosecutor is Danish! 

Wait, which kid is British? 

Edited November 26, 2020 by Melina22

[buckboard]

My quibble about the show:

An obviously wealthy white woman safely walking the empty streets of New York City late at night.  There are more people on the streets in the few scenes shot during the day.  How long would she last IRL before being robbed or worse?

And to carrps, a big thank you.  The pronunciation of Elena's name as if it were Eleanor has bugged my wife and me big time.

[Melina22]

1 minute ago, buckboard said:

An obviously wealthy white woman safely walking the empty streets of New York City late at night. 

I know! This seemed super far fetched. And she wasn't taking short strolls. We're supposed to believe she just ambles all over the place, for hours. 

[carrps]

1 hour ago, Enigma X said:

My best friend's daughter's name is Elena pronounced the first way you have it, and I have a friend where it is her name and she (and her parents) pronounces it the second way. 

Yes, but this Elena is a nuyorican (I'm assuming). She'd pronounce it as her husband does - e-LAY-na.

 

1 hour ago, Melina22 said:

And the prosecutor is Danish! 

Wait, which kid is British? 

The kid playing Henry. I must say he fooled me totally. I only caught him using a British pronuncation on his "sir" when talking to his headmaster in this latest episode. Noah Jupe (looked it up).

 

2 minutes ago, Ashforth said:

Thanks @Roxie! Something between that and the blank slate that is Grace's face could have enriched The Undoing. I don't have an issue with Kidman's lack of wrinkles - I'm 58 and I don't have a lot of wrinkles. It's the immobility of her face that I think keeps the audience from engaging in her emotions.

I may watch Destroyer. Am I a glutton for punishment?

Even in this picture, she just looks kinda dirty to me. No wrinkles.

[Melina22]

18 minutes ago, carrps said:

The kid playing Henry. I must say he fooled me totally. I only caught him using a British pronuncation on his "sir" when talking to his headmaster in this latest episode. Noah Jupe (looked it up).

Wow! He's good! I never suspected. 

[Aqua]

On 11/22/2020 at 9:25 PM, susannot said:

If the little boy Henry turns out to be the killer I will absolutely hate this show. How awful.  I expect it to end with either his mother or father taking the rap and going to prison for him. I would.  He is 10 years old for Chist's sake.

I think he's more like 14 but I don't think he is the murderer. I think they want us to think he is.

On 11/23/2020 at 12:05 PM, MerBearHou said:

Give me a break -- frequently walking around NYC at night by herself at all hours -- what in the world??

As a New Yorker I can tell you it is the one city I feel comfortable walking around alone at 4 am and have done so for decades.

19 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Back in ye olden days before Lyft and Uber made it cheap and easy to get rides, people used car services. It was basically a fancier version of a taxi that you could schedule in advance. They had nice cars that would drive you wherever you needed to go and it could be as little as one ride (meaning you didn't need to sign a long term contract with the car service). I just assumed that Grace and Jonathan used a car service like that (rather than having someone who drove exclusively for them).

Not only did the driver drive exclusively for them but I think it is their personal car that he is driving which is kept in a garage for at least $500 a month.

I have enjoyed this from the beginning but I feel like this episode was poorly written.

After last week's show ended with Jonathan implying/confessing in the Connie Chung interview that he loved Elena, and watching Grace's look of shock and horror, shouldn't there have been some followup to that?? Maybe Grace asking Jonathan about it? But no, instead they are walking in the park like he never said it. That kind of continuity problem irks me to no end. 

Pet peeve; Why do characters shut off TVs when they are being discussed on the news? It certainly doesn't happen every day, and wouldn't Jonathan want to know what is being said about him? Seems it might help him in his defense to know what people are saying. 

Random observation, wondering if anyone noticed this. For a rich couple, Jonathan and Grace have a really small bed. It doesn't even look like a Queen. More like a Full. Barely room for two pillows!

Fernando's death glare with Jonathan at the metal detector seemed kind of misplaced after they had that warm meeting at his apartment where he gets to hold the baby. I wonder if there were some reshuffling of scenes in the editing room.

Why oh why is this family who seems to value its privacy eating in a posh apparently high-profile restaurant in the middle of the trial of the century? That makes no sense to me. You'd think the'd be trying to avoid the spotlight. And the confession (near the coatrack?) that Jonathan had accidentally let his sister get killed seemed an even odder bit of staging. 

Regarding the trial, as most have stated—irregularities all around. Sylvie breezes in and waves to the prosecutor like she's just spotted her at a bistro? WTF? In some courtrooms that behavior will get a stern reprimand from the court officer. By the way, witnesses are not permitted to watch the proceedings before they testify, so none of these observers in the galley better show up on the witness stand next week or I'm going to lose my lunch. 

The writers are working very hard to convince us now that Henry the killer with his statement at dinner that he wants them to be a family again, the reveal about seeing Dad with Elena, (leading to a bizarre smile and wave by Jonathan), etc., and while I do admit the finding of the weapon in the violin case coupled with Henry's wide-eyed stare was pretty gripping, the quick HBO rush to "scenes-from-next week" kind of killed the suspense for me. 

I am psyched to find out the ending but I'm afraid I'm going to be disappointed.

What are y'all watching when this is over or what can you recommend in the way of cool psychological thrillers? It's going to be a long winter.

Edited November 26, 2020 by ReviewX

[Cheezwiz]

On 11/24/2020 at 6:56 AM, BC4ME said:

I actually had this same problem with Big Little Lies, where Nichole and Laura Dern, both in their 50s IRL, have young elementary school aged children.  While I realize this is possible, I feel like it's going on too much in recent shows, perhaps so aging stars can play roles of much younger women. 

That totally bugged me about Big Little Lies as well. If the actresses were playing their true ages, their kids would all be college-aged or even grad students, not in elementary school. Even if fudged a bit (they were playing younger women, or they had their kids later in life) the math STILL didn't really work for KIdman & Dern - at minimum, their kids would be tweens or high-schoolers. I looked past it because the show was fun.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

1 hour ago, ReviewX said:

Not only did the driver drive exclusively for them but I think it is their personal car that he is driving which is kept in a garage for at least $500 a month.

When was this mentioned on the show? I don’t remember this at all!

[Cheezwiz]

I knew that hammer was going to show up somewhere, because movie people are too dumb to dispose of evidence. So, my money is still on Sylvia or Gramps as the culprit. I don't think Henry did it - I think he's covering for someone or someone planted it. As mentioned upthread, it's interesting that the last place Henry practiced his violin was at Grandpa's. Although another twist could be that Grandpa is a flawed but decent guy who sometimes throws his weight around. Since we see him sitting in art galleries all the time, I couldn't help but wonder if he was a secret patron of Elena's

Stuff I hope doesn't just get dropped:

• Seriously, what the HELL happened to the 500,000 that was loaned to Jonathan? And then he needs another 2mil from Franklin for bail, and no one asks about this?
• What was Jonathan's ruse about the faux conference about? Why was he setting that up well before the murder took place? I like the theory that Jonathan was actually planning to run away with Elena and the baby, and wanted the money for a new start elsewhere.
• I was convinced there was a hidden relationship between Grace and Elena, but that has not been revealed yet, so maybe not.
• I hope they explain how the culprit left the scene undetected if they were undoubtably splattered with blood and brain matter.

Grace is clearly nuts, and I think the MIL's video might be a red-herring. Not sure if Jonathan is a full-blown sociopath or just an asshole who grew up with cold parents. Nicole's frozen face was bothering much more this episode than any of the others - from certain angles, she was looking more and more like the Joker. She really needs to cut that shit out.

It's too bad that something with such a tantalizing premise devolved into a collection of cardboard cutout suspects - essentially this is an Upper West-Side version of Clue. Now I'm off to Pop Sugar to look at the archive of Nicole's coats!

[Melina22]

3 hours ago, ReviewX said:

Pet peeve; Why do characters shut off TVs when they are being discussed on the news? It certainly doesn't happen every day, and wouldn't Jonathan want to know what is being said about him? Seems it might help him in his defense to know what people are saying. 

I enjoyed your whole post but for me, this TV thing is right up there with people hanging up the phone without saying goodbye. (Both of which the Queen did in the episode of The Crown I watched yesterday! 😁)

"Oh look, a news segment entirely about me and my crime! Eh, I'll turn it off and see what's for lunch."