S04.E17: After the Fire

[MsChicklet]

I think Rebecca gets an unfairly harsh judgment about keeping silent about William.

First, she grew up in a time where adoption was about closing the door on the child's biological roots, and that any connection with the biological family would weaken the adoptive relationship and be bad for both the child and the adoptive parents. As progressive as she and Jack may have been in adopting a black child during that time, those attitudes about adoption lingered. MrChicklet had to wait until his adoptive mom died before searching for his biological family because she would have taken it as his rejecting her as his mother and been devastated.

Second, her first impression of William was as a junkie. He may have done the right thing leaving his son at a firehouse, but he was a junkie nonetheless. Then, when Randall was a child, this was the era of the War on Drugs and the crack epidemic. What with all the news coverage at the time, she was probably scared that if she let William into Randall's life, all sorts of bad things could have happened.

Then, Jack died. She lost her home. Her world was upended. She was struggling just to get through the day and she's supposed to bring someone who is essentially a stranger into the life of her son who just lost the only father he'd ever known?

Now with Randall today, he can't see that the tighter he tries to hold onto controlling things, everything he cares about is going to slip between his fingers and he'll lose them, possibly for good.

Edited March 20, 2020 by MsChicklet

[Janie430]

OK, I get that Randall was going through a lot in his early twenties, and Rebecca wanted to protect him, especially with his anxiety.  But that's actually part of the problem - one of the things that people with anxiety need to do is keep going. 

I can't control that I have brain chemistry that is hyperstimulated all the time, and will go off at the drop of a hat.  But that doesn't mean life stops - I still have to deal with the problems of life as they come.  At some point you have to stop protecting your children emotionally, because it becomes crippling, and because once you die, they're going to have to deal.

I respect that Rebecca and Jack did what they did to normalize Randall - telling him to stop studying and dance with his date, trying to get him to be in the moment.  And they must have felt he was already feeling like the outsider, and therefore they didn't want to stigmatize him more.  But by not dealing with his anxiety when he was a teen, not taking him for meds, they made it so much worse.  They taught him the coping technique of running, and breathing exercises, but they never went "yeah, your brain chemistry is wonky, not your fault, let's deal with it". 

And by not doing that, they reinforced that "you shouldn't have this problem and you're weak if you do", and so Randall spirals down, then feels better, then stops whatever he's doing to cope, and the anxiety comes back.

[smartymarty]

Can someone remind me of how exactly Randall brought up Rebecca's secret in the phone call at the end? I only remember him using his "I was a good son" as leverage.

Also, you lost two fathers, you're not going to lose your mother too? First, Randall, everybody dies, to STFU. And second, you know you have a third father in Miguel, right? Except nobody acknowledges him at all. So STFU again.

[Ohiopirate02]

29 minutes ago, smartymarty said:

Can someone remind me of how exactly Randall brought up Rebecca's secret in the phone call at the end? I only remember him using his "I was a good son" as leverage.

Also, you lost two fathers, you're not going to lose your mother too? First, Randall, everybody dies, to STFU. And second, you know you have a third father in Miguel, right? Except nobody acknowledges him at all. So STFU again.

He doesn't outright state why he has been "a good son" and what Rebecca may owe him, but it is heavily implied.  Especially with this conversation coming right after his therapy appointment where the therapist prods him to realize he is still angry about Rebecca's secret regarding William.  And then you get his proclamation at therapy that he is not going to hash this out with Rebecca at this time because he doesn't want to.  He wants to hold it over Rebecca instead to get what he wants from her.

[Aloeonatable]

On 3/18/2020 at 7:00 PM, lexiexx said:

I have always found it strange that they never, ever talk about the third triplet.  

I don't find it odd at all. Sure he existed, in the womb, for 7 1/2 months, but no one "knew him." Rebecca, and Jack to a lesser extent, were aware of him, and they both grieved shortly after the births. As far as we know none of the triplets were identical, so that bond wasn't there. I can imagine a short conversation when the Big 3 were younger about the loss, but I don't think it is a major plot point. 

[ams1001]

1 minute ago, Aloeonatable said:

I don't find it odd at all. Sure he existed, in the womb, for 7 1/2 months, but no one "knew him." Rebecca, and Jack to a lesser extent, were aware of him, and they both grieved shortly after the births. As far as we know none of the triplets were identical, so that bond wasn't there. I can imagine a short conversation when the Big 3 were younger about the loss, but I don't think it is a major plot point. 

Yeah, to Kevin and Kate I would think he'd be more of an abstract, since they have no memory of him. For Rebecca and Jack he'd be a lot more concrete, but even then, life moves on and I wouldn't expect it to be a frequent topic of discussion.

[kili]

Quote

Can someone remind me of how exactly Randall brought up Rebecca's secret in the phone call at the end? I only remember him using his "I was a good son" as leverage.

Randall starts out yammering about what a Good Son he was and Rebecca is kind of "Sure, where is this going?" Then he says the following:

Randall: And I've let things go. Mom...Things that were...KEPT from me. Things that I should have resented you for, but I never did because I knew it would be painful for you. So, I didn't.

During which, you can see Rebecca's heartbreak and she's completely defeated. There really isn't anything else he could be referring to her other than the William secret. It's a major feature of the entire episode (where it is made clear that he hasn't forgiven her for) and unless Rebecca and Kevin did end up killing and burying Marc, I'm not sure what big secret she could have been keeping from Randall.

Randall considers the William secret keeping so bad, he has after-the-fire Jack disgusted with Rebecca in both timelines. in the happy timeline, Jack forgives Rebecca quickly (after he refuses to let Rebecca come to meet William and the meeting goes okay) and never really forgives it in the bad timeline.

Good Son is the child version of Nice Guy. You don't get to blackmail people because you were once a nice kid.

[Sake614]

So in any timeline, Randall is an ass? Well okay then. I think it’s pretty clear why he and his siblings aren’t speaking later this year...I hope kevin, Kate and Miguel all rip him a new one when they find out what he did.

[BoogieBurns]

On 3/19/2020 at 11:24 AM, Higgins said:

He was at Howard University an historically black college

Yes, I'm aware, as I went to an HBCU myself and know each of the 5 options all attract different types of men. There are four other black fraternities that each better fit any version of Randall. Including a Sigma (which SKB is in real life). 

On 3/18/2020 at 9:35 PM, PRgal said:

So Omega men are stereotypically @$$holes?  

No. They, in general, are rougher around the edges, seeping with self confidence, and very masculine. They are often (more than any other black frats) physically large men as well, they tower over others. If I were casting an Omega in a movie, Terry Crews would be my starting point. Omegas are also (stereotypically) the non-academic ones.

Not sure any black frat would be defined as assholes, but there is one that's known for having a hard time settling down because they are a tad cocky. 

[Tosia]

I can't help thinking how Randall's resentment & manipulation of Rebecca would play out in light of C19. 

Bigger things to worry about. 

Suck it up. Different times re: bio birth parents back then.  

Plus  would Rebecca  or anyone want to be away from their family today....much less in a medical institution?

STFU Randall.

He was such a jerk to the therapist also.  

I would have quit him as a patient. He seethes resentment. 

[Blakeston]

47 minutes ago, Tosia said:

I can't help thinking how Randall's resentment & manipulation of Rebecca would play out in light of C19. 

Bigger things to worry about. 

Oh lord - he'd demand a respirator for her if her temperature hit 98.7.

Speaking of coronavirus, am I the only one who thinks back on Zoey eating a bat last season and just cringes?

[chocolatine]

1 minute ago, Blakeston said:

Speaking of coronavirus, am I the only one who thinks back on Zoey eating a bat last season and just cringes?

That was cringeworthy with or without coronavirus.

[buttersister]

August and no one’s talking to him—even Rebecca who can’t remember that. I wonder where Randall’s living. Everyone is going to slap the shit out of him, including Beth. (I know they’re together in the future.)

I think it’s possible that the writers know Randall is an asshole. Or as they may see it, damaged goods who behaves like a controlling ass. But we’ll show it selfish bit by bit until we get to flat out evil. 

P.S. Randall, in the end, you’ll have to remind your mom who you are.

Edited March 21, 2020 by buttersister

[debraran]

23 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

I have a very bad memory, so here's some questions.

Randall is possessive of his mom to unhealthy degree.  Almost as if he became the replacement for Jack.   Did he have a problem with his mom marrying Miguel?  Miguel should have been the one to take over that role, but for some reason it seems to still fall on Randall.  Miguel must be okay with that, otherwise he would have stepped forward long ago.  Unless, he feels as though he has no role in that family because he isn't a Pearson.   Which brings up another question.

Why did Miguel marry Rebecca in the first place?  He has never stopped being an outsider.   It seems like he is a non-factor whenever he is around the Big Three.   He has no role in decision making.  None.  Is he really that afraid of them, that he can't step up and take control or give any input at all?   Is he afraid that Rebecca would have dumped him if he did?

I don't think the therapist should be confrontational, but I do think she should have asked Randall for a complete description of his relationship with his mom.  And then after he gives his long winded three hour response, she should say to him, "Like a married couple, without the sex."  That right there should have been enough to cause Randall to reassess his thought process, that he should have taken a step back and empower Miguel to handle things.

I think Rebecca and Miguel love each other, they aren't in a arranged marriage or forced to live together. The writers might be dragging out the meeting etc. but I vaguely remember seeing pictures of them semi formal, maybe her in a long dress in promo pics. Time will tell if that was their wedding.

Milo liked the idea of Miguel and Mandy said "Their life shouldn't be over just because he got divorced and her husband passed away," she said. "It's, again, very true to life. They should celebrate finding each other and being able to support one another after such a loss."

My sister married a widower and they dated a year and being 60, didn't drag it on longer. They are very happy at 5 year mark but kids were awful for a year or so. Some of it was money (will they be cut out at all) which was stupid and he had to be firm, the other thing was that he was replacing their mother. They were all grown and with kids but he told them "I never thought I'd meet anyone I could love again, but I did. If you want me to be alone for another 30 years if I'm lucky, then you don't love me". 

I find how the kids act immature and unloving and I'm glad that someday the writers show that Randall sees Miguel as her husband and worthy of helping her make decisions and I love how Kevin grew and matured with Miguel and Nicky. Kate hasn't been developed in that area yet, her feelings but it's always about Kate so maybe she didn't care.

I hope the study if she does it, doesn't make her worse. Her decline was a bit dramatic. I would have a hard time processing that but I read the drugs can make it worse. I took care of people with different dementia type illness's (she still could have something else) and it can go on steady for years or change in a year but a few months? That seems fast, usually has a more steady decline depending on that type of illness.

Edited March 21, 2020 by debraran

[Tosia]

So, eventually,we know Rebecca will be dying. 

Wouldn't Miguel, as Rebecca's husband,  have medical power of attorney?

So Randal would have to bully, I mean convince, Miguel of her end of life care/pulling the plug?

When does TIU return with new episodes?

I know,  it's probably on hold because of C19, but maybe they recorded then already.?

[sasha206]

On 3/19/2020 at 2:09 AM, Marley said:

Also I love how in his stupid fantasies Jack was totally fine drinking. In one Jack was drinking beer and another Jameson.

 

Right?  I feel like this show often forgets that at one point, he was a bad enough alcoholic that he had to get rehabbed.  We got what, one episode of him being a drunk.  No relapse  ever apparently.

If he was such a bad drunk at one point, no matter how minute the period of time, certainly his children would fantasize about him being clean and sober.

[Crs97]

I forgot that when Rebecca wanted Jack to get help, he just went to the gym and boxed; Randall’s “I just need to run” makes more sense now.

I am ready for a Miguel-centric episode.

[Roxie]

2 hours ago, Tosia said:

Wouldn't Miguel, as Rebecca's husband,  have medical power of attorney?

In Ohio, that's the law.  If she were a widow without a written POA, it would go next to the eldest child.  (That's if I remember correctly from my time as a hospital social worker.)

[ams1001]

2 hours ago, Tosia said:

When does TIU return with new episodes?

I know,  it's probably on hold because of C19, but maybe they recorded then already.?

According to TVLine's list, they are finished filming and the season ends March 24. 

[gonzosgirrl]

5 hours ago, Tosia said:

When does TIU return with new episodes?

I know,  it's probably on hold because of C19, but maybe they recorded then already.?

TiU only has 18 episodes per season, so next week is the season finale.

ETA: or, what @ams1001said. Ooops!

Edited March 21, 2020 by gonzosgirrl

[Tosia]

Any word when..if the new season is supposed to start?

[chocolatine]

35 minutes ago, Tosia said:

Any word when..if the new season is supposed to start?

I don't think anyone knows at this point. The entire state of California is currently on lockdown. Shows that were still filming for the current season, like Grey's Anatomy, have halted production.

If the isolation and lockdowns have to continue for much longer and shows are unable to film new seasons, I wonder if they'll resort to doing table reads via video conference, record them, and air them en lieu of a finished show, just so audiences are not left entirely without entertainment.

[amarante]

21 hours ago, BoogieBurns said:

Yes, I'm aware, as I went to an HBCU myself and know each of the 5 options all attract different types of men. There are four other black fraternities that each better fit any version of Randall. Including a Sigma (which SKB is in real life). 

No. They, in general, are rougher around the edges, seeping with self confidence, and very masculine. They are often (more than any other black frats) physically large men as well, they tower over others. If I were casting an Omega in a movie, Terry Crews would be my starting point. Omegas are also (stereotypically) the non-academic ones.

Not sure any black frat would be defined as assholes, but there is one that's known for having a hard time settling down because they are a tad cocky. 

I must admit the timelines now have me confused. I thought that Randall actually went to Howard - did he actually wind up going local to stay close to his mother. For some reason I remember the initial meeting with Beth seemed to be at a gathering with black freshmen versus one in which Randall and Beth were one of few POC. 

Also, since you seem to know the anthropological nuances of black frats. Is Randall actually a member of a lightly disguised black frat such that it would be recognizable even with a slight name tweak? And what if any significance does that Greek affiliation have for his character?

[TivoFan]

Late to the discussion, but I have thoughts about the clinical trial issue. I had Stage 3 cancer 5 years ago and met the eligibility criteria for a clinical trial using a newer, supposedly less damaging method of radiation treatment. It would have meant moving to Boston, more than 1,000 miles from family and friends for several months, but if successful, promised to make after-effects of radiation treatment much less severe.

Multiple delays in getting approval from Humana Healthcare (yes, I will name-shame them!)  killed my chance to participate. Anyway, long story short, despite some pretty dreadful lifelong side-effects from 30 traditional radiation treatments, in retrospect, I am so happy that I was in my own home with my husband and our dog, and that my family and friends could visit me during that time. Going through chemo and radiation is difficult enough, but without family and friends to support me through it, it would have been much, much harder. I will live with the side effects while always appreciating the kindness of people I love.

The joy Rebecca experienced with Kevin in Clouds, and on game night in this episode, proves that staying with family instead of going to St. Louis for a trial would be the best choice for her.

If ever "seize the day" matters, it is when there are clearly fewer days left to seize.

Randall had no right to guilt her into a different decision.

[chocolatine]

2 hours ago, amarante said:

I must admit the timelines now have me confused. I thought that Randall actually went to Howard - did he actually wind up going local to stay close to his mother. For some reason I remember the initial meeting with Beth seemed to be at a gathering with black freshmen versus one in which Randall and Beth were one of few POC. 

Randall (and Beth) attended Carnegie Mellon University in "real" life. 

[kili]

Quote

 

Right?  I feel like this show often forgets that at one point, he was a bad enough alcoholic that he had to get rehabbed.  We got what, one episode of him being a drunk.  No relapse  ever apparently.

If he was such a bad drunk at one point, no matter how minute the period of time, certainly his children would fantasize about him being clean and sober.

 

He largely kept it hidden from his children and after he died, they turned him into a saint. Kevin seems to be the only one who recognizes that he had a drinking problem. When it came up during his family rehab session, the other three reacted angrily. Kate refused to accept that he had a drinking problem, Rebecca didn't want her dead husband's reputation besmirched and Randall said that neither Jack nor Kevin have substance abuse problems (Kevin is just saying that to get attention).

I think it is in character for Randall to have alt-reality fantasy Jack drinking because his reality fantasy Jack doesn't have a drinking problem. It was another clue from the writers that Randall still hasn't accepted his parents for who they really are.  

[A.Ham]

1 hour ago, kili said:

Kate refused to accept that he had a drinking problem, Rebecca didn't want her dead husband's reputation besmirched and Randall said that neither Jack nor Kevin have substance abuse problems (Kevin is just saying that to get attention).

Which is rich, considering Randall. I mean, he never does anything for attention.

[Court]

I actually quite enjoyed this episode until the damn end. What Randall did is worse than actually telling her he is angry at her. I've always thought it was unrealistic that he just let her off for keeping her knowledge of his dad from him. Fuck you, Randall.

[bros402]

On 3/19/2020 at 6:52 AM, Lone Wolf said:

Professor Randall had a pretty sweet crib.  I wouldn't have thought that he would have been able to afford it on a higher educator's salary, but then again it was Real Randall's fantasy; why not give himself the lifestyle he'd become accustomed to...

tbh I am wondering why Randall became a Classical Literature professor - isn't he a math genius? Why not have him become a math professor, then you can just assume he made money through some kind of math?

[chocolatine]

35 minutes ago, bros402 said:

tbh I am wondering why Randall became a Classical Literature professor - isn't he a math genius? Why not have him become a math professor, then you can just assume he made money through some kind of math?

Probably because math professors are much less likely to have hot female TAs throw themselves at them. (I say this as someone who does a form of applied math for a living, so no disrespect to math professors.)

[lucindabelle]

I half enjoyed the fantasy Randall spin, largely I think because I like the actors playing the dead characters. I just enjoyed seeing everyone at the wedding, meeting Beth again. Tra la.

the second fantasy was waaaaaay too dark.

where is my Goldilocks just right? Really neither felt plausible.

but yeah the truth is Jack had a bad heart. Smoke inhalation did not help but it’s not clear that his going in again killed him.

randall begging his mom was emotional and I understood him and Rebecca (and boy was I glad he did not go back to berating her over William) but I don’t think this is the best choice. And even if it were, it’s not his choice to make.

 

 

 

[Blackie]

On 3/17/2020 at 10:55 PM, Veronica said:

aybe whatever is being tested at the clinical trial makes her deteriorate faster.  Or Kevin, Kate, and Miguel team up to remind her why she didn’t want to do it. 

 I would think for sure  that being aware from her familiar environment and routine and family is going to cause stress and anxiety and worsening of symptoms, I have seen this in my family members.  I would think Miguel, as the husband, has the POA and makes the decision to pull her.

 

Over all I don't like Randall character and his scenarios.  But I could see what the writers were trying to do there.  At first it was just him, not showing the therapist, then when he opened up to work with the therapist, they showed her.  And just when he seemed like "he got it", they only showed him for the last bit of the therapy. I guess that meant he "got it" for a second but quickly reverted to his safe place of being selfish (him trying "to save " his mom rather than risk confronting her regarding his feelings about her lying).

Can someone help me, I really can't remember how Randal found William way back in the beginning.  I didn't have those eps on my PVR and have tried to read synopsis but can't find the info.

 

Enough Randal, get back to Kevin !!

 

Edited March 22, 2020 by Blackie
questions already answered in prev posts

[Ohiopirate02]

1 hour ago, Blackie said:

 I would think for sure  that being aware from her familiar environment and routine and family is going to cause stress and anxiety and worsening of symptoms, I have seen this in my family members.  I would think Miguel, as the husband, has the POA and makes the decision to pull her.

 

Over all I don't like Randall character and his scenarios.  But I could see what the writers were trying to do there.  At first it was just him, not showing the therapist, then when he opened up to work with the therapist, they showed her.  And just when he seemed like "he got it", they only showed him for the last bit of the therapy. I guess that meant he "got it" for a second but quickly reverted to his safe place of being selfish (him trying "to save " his mom rather than risk confronting her regarding his feelings about her lying).

Can someone help me, I really can't remember how Randal found William way back in the beginning.  I didn't have those eps on my PVR and have tried to read synopsis but can't find the info.

 

Enough Randal, get back to Kevin !!

 

Randall got an email in the first episode giving him Wiliams address, etc.   He either did his own research to find William or paid a private investigator to find him.  He spent some time tracking William down and had his speech ready.  I believe he chose to confront William on his "birthday".  I put that into quotes because William dropped him off at the firehouse on August 31, 1980.  I don't think the show has stated how old he was when that happened. 

[Blackie]

1 hour ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Randall got an email in the first episode giving him Wiliams address, etc.   He either did his own research to find William or paid a private investigator to find him. 

 

So we really don't know how William was found then.  Who else know about William other then Rebecca.  I can't even remember how Rebecca found him. I think she followed him somehow.  (sorry this should probably go in another thread).

 

To make this relevant to this episode I will say I thought they had Jack looking too old  for Randall/Kevin's weddings.  I thought they it was Beth and Randal's 20th anniversary or something when he was making the toast.

Edited March 22, 2020 by Blackie
corection

[deirdra]

Rebecca noticed William hanging around the hospital and followed him home. That was back when the show consisted of random 5-second clips that we were supposed to find mysterious & intriguing, though many viewers just stopped watching. There was also a flash of a firefighter looking at Randall in the hospital nursery, so I think the part about him being left at a fire station is true.

I agree that old Jack was probably at an anniversary party, but the makeup people are often 10-20 yrs off the mark with one or more of the actors in the same scene. Though living in Hollywood, no wonder they are confused about what natural aging looks like.

 

Edited March 22, 2020 by deirdra

[PRgal]

10 hours ago, bros402 said:

tbh I am wondering why Randall became a Classical Literature professor - isn't he a math genius? Why not have him become a math professor, then you can just assume he made money through some kind of math?

Because it's his worst nightmare.  Math is his thing.  Classical lit would be a 180

[BoogieBurns]

23 hours ago, amarante said:

I must admit the timelines now have me confused. I thought that Randall actually went to Howard - did he actually wind up going local to stay close to his mother. For some reason I remember the initial meeting with Beth seemed to be at a gathering with black freshmen versus one in which Randall and Beth were one of few POC. 

Also, since you seem to know the anthropological nuances of black frats. Is Randall actually a member of a lightly disguised black frat such that it would be recognizable even with a slight name tweak? And what if any significance does that Greek affiliation have for his character?

He went to Carnegie Mellon, which appears (currently) to have 3 of the 5 black fraternities, unsure about 1998 options. But no, they have never mentioned if he is in a fraternity in our real timeline.

To be fair, we really haven't seen any of the Pearsons with platonic friends, so anything is possible! His frat bros could show up at any time if he has them. 

[Roxie]

6 minutes ago, BoogieBurns said:

To be fair, we really haven't seen any of the Pearsons with platonic friends, so anything is possible! His frat bros could show up at any time if he has them. 

I was just thinking about this, regarding Rebecca after the fire.  Where were her girlfriends to offer her help and support?  Did she really not have any?  That doesn't seem likely.

[Calvada]

The people I feel sorry for are Tess, Annie and Deja.  Just imagine having that narcissistic, manipulative asshole as your father?  The thing that really irked me about Randall was his failure to realize that the decision to not go to Howard after Jack's death meant that he met Beth, meant that they had Tess and Annie, meant that they were together to welcome Deja into their family.  Perhaps he should look at the blessings that came into his life instead of obsessing about the loss of his father.  By the way which came as the result of serious, undiagnosed heart disease, and even without the house fire, it seems the odds that Jack would have a sudden early death were very high.  Kevin and Kate should be thinking about this!  Of course Randall is such a messed up jerk that this would become an issue for him too.  "I'm adopted, so I can't even participate in the family history of cardiac disease - woe is me!" as he sinks into the fetal position.

And what almost 40 year old talks about how they can't survive the loss of their only surviving parent?  Dude, that's life.  Most people do outlive their parents.  It's as if those of us who have lost parents and have maintained a functioning life are somehow less aware, less sensitive, less loving than Randall Pearson.  Fuck you, asshole.  

I can't imagine having a brother, spouse, father, or son like Randall - how totally exhausting.

[bros402]

22 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

but yeah the truth is Jack had a bad heart. Smoke inhalation did not help but it’s not clear that his going in again killed him.

Yeah - the only way for Jack to have known would have been to have a family member die from a bad heart - his dad died from drinking himself to death (I think?), don't know how/when his mother died, and Nicky isn't dead yet.

My dad gets his heart checked out yearly, as he has a big build up in the widowmaker artery (So his cardiologist does scans on it yearly, and has him come in if he has even the tiniest amount of chest pain) - he gets it checked out because his dad died after 6 heart attacks, and his brother after like 4, and a stroke (his brother had a triple or quadruple bypass at 39)
 

13 hours ago, PRgal said:

Because it's his worst nightmare.  Math is his thing.  Classical lit would be a 180

I think he liked Literature, at least he liked the black teacher in middle school, who taught lit.

[Rohirrim]

On 3/22/2020 at 7:46 AM, Blackie said:

 I would think for sure  that being aware from her familiar environment and routine and family is going to cause stress and anxiety and worsening of symptoms, I have seen this in my family members.  I would think Miguel, as the husband, has the POA and makes the decision to pull her.

 

Over all I don't like Randall character and his scenarios.  But I could see what the writers were trying to do there.  At first it was just him, not showing the therapist, then when he opened up to work with the therapist, they showed her.  And just when he seemed like "he got it", they only showed him for the last bit of the therapy. I guess that meant he "got it" for a second but quickly reverted to his safe place of being selfish (him trying "to save " his mom rather than risk confronting her regarding his feelings about her lying).

Can someone help me, I really can't remember how Randal found William way back in the beginning.  I didn't have those eps on my PVR and have tried to read synopsis but can't find the info.

 

Enough Randal, get back to Kevin !!

 

Randall paid a private investigator to find William.

[ams1001]

8 hours ago, bros402 said:

Yeah - the only way for Jack to have known would have been to have a family member die from a bad heart - his dad died from drinking himself to death (I think?), don't know how/when his mother died, and Nicky isn't dead yet.

Wasn't he turned down from the army because of his heart and managed to convince his doctor to say he was healthy enough so he could enlist? 

[ShadowFacts]

On 3/21/2020 at 9:55 PM, kili said:

He largely kept it hidden from his children and after he died, they turned him into a saint. Kevin seems to be the only one who recognizes that he had a drinking problem. When it came up during his family rehab session, the other three reacted angrily. Kate refused to accept that he had a drinking problem, Rebecca didn't want her dead husband's reputation besmirched and Randall said that neither Jack nor Kevin have substance abuse problems (Kevin is just saying that to get attention).

I think it is in character for Randall to have alt-reality fantasy Jack drinking because his reality fantasy Jack doesn't have a drinking problem. It was another clue from the writers that Randall still hasn't accepted his parents for who they really are.  

Didn't his happy fantasy have William and Jack attending an AA type meeting together? 

On 3/21/2020 at 10:55 AM, Roxie said:

In Ohio, that's the law.  If she were a widow without a written POA, it would go next to the eldest child.  (That's if I remember correctly from my time as a hospital social worker.)

I think it's fairly likely that 12 or so years into the future, she is a widow.  Miguel seems to be around Jack's age, and Jack was a few years older than Rebecca, Rebecca's around 70 now, plus we haven't seen him at Kevin's house of the future yet. If she creates a POA while still of sound mind, she can name a successor to Miguel right in it.

[Aloeonatable]

On 3/21/2020 at 7:55 PM, kili said:

He largely kept it hidden from his children and after he died, they turned him into a saint. Kevin seems to be the only one who recognizes that he had a drinking problem. When it came up during his family rehab session, the other three reacted angrily. Kate refused to accept that he had a drinking problem, Rebecca didn't want her dead husband's reputation besmirched and Randall said that neither Jack nor Kevin have substance abuse problems (Kevin is just saying that to get attention).

I think it is in character for Randall to have alt-reality fantasy Jack drinking because his reality fantasy Jack doesn't have a drinking problem. It was another clue from the writers that Randall still hasn't accepted his parents for who they really are.  

Jack definitely had a drinking problem and he did relapse. In episode 2 of season 1, Rebecca tells Jack that he has to control his drinking, and he seems to do that on his own (this is when the Big 3 are about 9.) When he relapses (when the Big 3 are teens) is when he goes to rehab. 

I really, really have never considered Jack to be a saint and I don't think his children look at him that way either. He was just a great father, attentive, loving and supportive. 

[ams1001]

1 hour ago, ShadowFacts said:

Didn't his happy fantasy have William and Jack attending an AA type meeting together? 

 

Yes, it did.

[Pallas]

 

Quote

I wouldn't expect any adoptive parents to encourage a relationship with a bio parent, why would they.

Because the parents love their child. Because the parents know their child. Because the parents know that this is the one thing that they cannot give their child, on their own. Because the parents know that their child loves them. 

Rebecca told Jack that she was afraid of somehow losing Randall -- years after they'd legally adopted him. What she couldn't say (she felt) was why: that she'd lied by omission when the family court judge noted, in passing, that Randall's other parents could not be found. Her guilt about that secret may explain a bit about how she went on to over-compensate with both Randall and Jack.  

Thirty years later she told Randall that she'd been afraid of losing him, emotionally, if he found his other father. Both fears are completely understandable, and terrible to carry alone. But Rebecca chose not to have even one other adult to confide in, let alone, seek out for help. 

We make our greatest mistakes as parents from what we still refuse to face in ourselves. Throughout their marriage, Jack and Rebecca were on the same page when it came to avoiding therapy for their own anxiety (hers) or depression (his). Even when she saw Randall's anxiety disorder for what it was -- "He's getting worse!" and Jack did too -- they both still bowed to Jack's defenses against the dark arts. That remained true after Jack's death, when every member of the family was in need. In the grief she bore alone, Rebecca could only hand-wave each child's childish coping mechanism. "I'll be Dad." "I'll marry a new family." "I'll be Katie Girl, professionally."

Help doesn't always help. Therapy is absolutely no cure-all, with or without medication. But these are its possibilities: that self-knowledge is possible and valuable; that self-knowledge can be survived; that without self-knowledge, survival is most likely to come at others' expense, and without joy, peace, or gratitude. 

[smartymarty]

Quote

Randall paid a private investigator to find William.

This was in the very first episode of TIU, so viewers were not privy to the hiring of the PI. 

Was William just hanging around the hospital to see if anyone had adopted the baby he'd left at the fire house? Because if Rebecca saw him there and followed him, wouldn't it have had to be after she'd recovered from giving birth to triplets? Someone refresh my memoy.

[ams1001]

16 minutes ago, smartymarty said:

Was William just hanging around the hospital to see if anyone had adopted the baby he'd left at the fire house? Because if Rebecca saw him there and followed him, wouldn't it have had to be after she'd recovered from giving birth to triplets? Someone refresh my memoy.

IIRC, she saw him watching when they were bringing her and the babies out to the car. I don't recall how she actually tracked him down, though.

[ShadowFacts]

2 hours ago, Pallas said:

Help doesn't always help. Therapy is absolutely no cure-all, with or without medication. But these are its possibilities: that self-knowledge is possible and valuable; that self-knowledge can be survived; that without self-knowledge, survival is most likely to come at others' expense, and without joy, peace, or gratitude. 

Great post.  This last bit illuminates a lot about Rebecca for me.  I have always wondered about the difference between her pre- and post-Jack appearance and demeanor.  She lost vibrancy, became colorless in a sense, was subdued in a way that was more than just aging.  Her relationships with Kevin and Kate were distant, and hers with Randall was co-dependent.  She was weighted down with so much.  Now that pivotal relationship with Randall is being tested at a time when she is least prepared for the challenge.  Pretty tragic.

2 hours ago, ams1001 said:

IIRC, she saw him watching when they were bringing her and the babies out to the car. I don't recall how she actually tracked him down, though.

I think she got a lead from a bus driver, who referred to him as Shakespeare, because he was always writing on the bus.

[bros402]

15 hours ago, ams1001 said:

Wasn't he turned down from the army because of his heart and managed to convince his doctor to say he was healthy enough so he could enlist? 

I believe it was a heart murmur, which wouldn't be indicative of any big heart issues, I imagine - a lot of people have them.