S04.E16: New York, New York, New York

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, Rachel RSL said:

Heh, I'm just as conflicted too.  I've come to warm to adult Kevin, especially in recent episodes where he seems to have matured a lot but, whenever they flash back to younger Kevin, it reminds me what an obnoxious little fucker he was.

Yes.  So much. 

This Kevin v. Randall stuff is beginning to remind me of the old Downton Abbey forum where it was Mary v. Edith, two siblings who were pretty heinous to each other, each having their own defenders and attackers.  I kind of think it comes down to who one can identify with more (or what kind of siblings we had as kids).  The endless rivalry going on far into adulthood turns me off a little, or bores me, maybe.  I understand all of the history that affects their interactions, but now grow the hell up, stop playing out your psychodramas, don't insist on your way, don't let your feelings get hurt, get your own help, help your mother.  That isn't just researching or taking her to red carpets, it's listening and supporting what she wants.  Right now Kate is in a good spot for that, I hope she stays there for both their sakes. 

[himela]

Omg I was waiting for two weeks for this boring, idiotic episode? I skipped all the scenes of the past cause I'm really sick of seeing the holy family in the past. I want to see the today and the story to go on. 

If the reason Kevin and Randall stop talking is about who takes care of Rebecca best, I will be really pissed. I mean, families connect in crisies, they don't fall apart. 

Randall is no longer in need of therapy; I think he now needs a shrink. He has lost it.

[Crs97]

I don’t blame Rebecca for this particular Instance of Miguel being treated badly.  She didn’t know about the trial to know Randall iced him out.  When Kevin asked to join them at the record store, Miguel bowed out saying he was tired.  I imagine Miguel encouraged her to go alone with Kevin for this weekend as well.  However, she does get blamed for not standing up for him earlier.  Miguel really is too good for all of them.

[Brookside]

Kevin to Randall: What does Miguel think about the trial?

Randall: Who?

[kili]

Do we know how much time passed between the events in this episode and the last set? The triptych "Hell of a Week" episodes occur concurrently and that is when Kevin re-filmed the ending to his movie. They finish that week by going to the cabin for the weekend followed by Kevin's-day-with-mom. How long did the director have to re-edit the new-ending of the film for the premiere?

I notice that Kevin got compliments on his acting at the end of the movie - looks like M. Night Shyamalan was right. And now Patty Jenkins wants to work with him? He's doing very well for himself.

Quote

If the reason Kevin and Randall stop talking is about who takes care of Rebecca best, I will be really pissed. I mean, families connect in crisies, they don't fall apart. 

I think they are not talking because Kevin is letting Rebecca choose her own treatment while Randall considers it a betrayal if any sibling doesn't follow his decisions on how Rebecca should be treated. 

Kevin seems to have bowed out of the game of "who is best son" and is just trying to be there for his Mom - to listen and support her desires. While Randall is also trying to do what he feels is best for his Mom, he feels he has already won the "best son" competition and everybody should listen to his decisions. He doesn't want to lose Rebecca and will do anything to save her regardless of the consequences. Kevin has learned to accept things and has accepted that Rebecca will eventually be lost. 

Randall is Jack going into a burning building to save a dog - he'll do anything to save the day no matter the cost. Kevin is Rebecca on the lawn just trying to make the best of a bad situation. I think we will see here that Kevin has a lot of Rebecca in him. 

[roughing it]

18 hours ago, Bringonthedrama said:

being Randall must be exhausting, and life must truly be exhausting for Beth.

There is no joy in Randall's life.  Maybe that's why he and Beth separate (divorce?) in the future.

[Gabs66]

20 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

The painting in the episode is John Singer Sargent's Portrait of Madame X.  A late Victorian painting which was scandalous when it first premiered because of all the exposed flesh and the straps appear to be falling off.  The name of the lady was not mentioned even if all of parisian society could figure out who it was.  I can see a woman in the repressive 1950s staring at that painting for hours wondering if she has the gumption to do something similar.  And then we get 1999 Rebecca starting to flirt with another man, staring to think about her life without Jack.  A+ use of symbolism writers.

 

 

I saw this painting when I was a little older than young Rebecca and was mesmerized by it. Somehow I " knew" that was going to be her painting, and when when the camera pulled back and showed us, I burst into tears. 

[drafan]

21 hours ago, BuckeyeLou said:

Is it my imagination or was that Milo Ventimiligia playing the role of Kirby, the acting teacher?

I think it was the guy who played the youngest son on Brothers and Sisters. Did they age him on purpose? He's not that old.

[izabella]

4 minutes ago, drafan said:

I think it was the guy who played the youngest son on Brothers and Sisters. Did they age him on purpose? He's not that old.

I think they gave him the same silver fox treatment that Kevin was given. 

[tennisgurl]

Mandy Moore is doing such amazing work, I feel so retroactively justified in her being my favorite of the teen pop princesses of the 90s when I was a kid! She is really killing it, especially as older Rebecca, her whole monologue about how many things she has put off in her life, and how she wants to spend what time she has left enjoying life with her family, with that lovely music in the background, was so heartbreaking and touching, and a great cap for the episode and its three timelines. She had all of these chances to get to the Met, but due to life stuff happening, it just never happened, until now, and it just hits you how many times we all say that we are going to do something, see something, learn something, say something, but we just keeping putting it off, until we could end up running out of time. I dont blame Rebecca at all for wanting to spend her last years with her family experiencing life, instead of spending it alone in a strange city getting treatment for almost a year that may or may not do anything. You could make a good case as to whether to keep going to treatment, even if it causes pain and keeps you from your life, or to just try and enjoy your time when you have a probably terminal illness, even if it might mean not having as much time, and I can understand why Rebecca made that choice. 

Of course, all Randall heard during that whole beautiful speech was "blah blah blah save me Randall blah blaah blah I need you blah blah blah your idea didnt win blah blah" 

[Bulldog]

3 hours ago, MissLucas said:

(has one more daughter but nobody really cares about her). 

Spinoff potential! 

[Aliconehead]

15 minutes ago, izabella said:

I think they gave him the same silver fox treatment that Kevin was given. 

I don’t think so.  Dave went grey a few years back. As a woman a little older, I have to say it looks GOOD on him. 

Edited March 11, 2020 by Aliconehead

[Ohiopirate02]

38 minutes ago, Gabs66 said:

I saw this painting when I was a little older than young Rebecca and was mesmerized by it. Somehow I " knew" that was going to be her painting, and when when the camera pulled back and showed us, I burst into tears. 

In the last month, I have been reading books set in the late Victorian era both fiction and nonfiction,  and a work of fiction about art.   In one of those this painting came up.  Dont ask me which book, but it has been haunting me for a few weeks.  Then out of all the art in the Met  this was the one used here.  

[CarpeFelis]

WOW. Just watched it, and the main thing that hit me was about Randall’s attitude. I swear there were moments when it felt like he thinks he OWNS Rebecca. Not just in the present, but back at college age too, in the scene where he argued with Kevin about whether she should even consider dating anyone. He thinks he knows what she thinks or how she feels better than she does. That’s incredibly infuriating!

[CarpeFelis]

Oh, and one more thing. Where the hell did Randall get off saying “you blew it” to Kevin after Rebecca nixed the clinical trial? What did Kevin do or say to sway her? Absolutely nothing! Which is more than can be said for Randall. What a hypocrite.

[SunnyBeBe]

Randall can get on my nerves, AND he often has a poor delivery, but he was right on point with Rebecca doing the trial. He should have waited til the next day, but he is right, imo. It is up to the person, but if you really see what’s ahead...I think you would try to get help in a trial. At least there is some chance it might help. If not.........it’s not good.

  I am responsible for a family member who had mixed dementia. So, it involves lots of reading, researching, etc. dementia. Current meds do not slow the progression of Alzheimer’s. Your time is limited, before you lose the ability to even know who you are.  There’s no way to know how fast it will progress. You may have months or years before you are no longer your normal self.  Rebecca, Kevin, Kate, Miguel, need to read what happens and even go visit a Memory Care unit. ALSO read what family members say on online support boards. IT’s pure torture for the patient and the caregivers.  Any attempts to get help are a blessing, especially someone as young as Rebecca. Current meds just help a little with the symptoms. They don’t slow it down.
 

 Dementia is not just losing memory. The person often becomes suspicious, accusatory, resistant to care, aggressive, fearful, suffer hallucinations, delusions, and incessantly repeat things.  They suffer sleep disorders, incontinence, falls, forget how to chew or swallow, can’t sit up, develop contracture and waste away to skin and bones. Dying is not the worst thing. It’s the part before you get there that is pure hell.
 

Yes, it’s Rebecca’s decision, but I don’t think it’s  an informed one.  She seems to have no idea just what lies ahead and I suppose that could be a blessing, but, if she knew, she would likely do anything to stave off this horror. I know this is a fictional family but it touches a nerve. There are so many real families who are caring for family members who are now strangers. Heartbreaking. 

[Aliconehead]

18 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Randall can get on my nerves, AND he often has a poor delivery, but he was right on point with Rebecca doing the trial. He should have waited til the next day, but he is right, imo. It is up to the person, but if you really see what’s ahead...I think you would try to get help in a trial. At least there is some chance it might help. If not.........it’s not good.

  I am responsible for a family member who had mixed dementia. So, it involves lots of reading, researching, etc. dementia. Current meds do not slow the progression of Alzheimer’s. Your time is limited, before you lose the ability to even know who you are.  There’s no way to know how fast it will progress. You may have months or years before you are no longer your normal self.  Rebecca, Kevin, Kate, Miguel, need to read what happens and even go visit a Memory Care unit. ALSO read what family members say on online support boards. IT’s pure torture for the patient and the caregivers.  Any attempts to get help are a blessing, especially someone as young as Rebecca. Current meds just help a little with the symptoms. They don’t slow it down.
 

 Dementia is not just losing memory. The person often becomes suspicious, accusatory, resistant to care, aggressive, fearful, suffer hallucinations, delusions, and incessantly repeat things.  They suffer sleep disorders, incontinence, falls, forget how to chew or swallow, can’t sit up, develop contracture and waste away to skin and bones. Dying is not the worst thing. It’s the part before you get there that is pure hell.
 

Yes, it’s Rebecca’s decision, but I don’t think it’s  an informed one.  She seems to have no idea just what lies ahead and I suppose that could be a blessing, but, if she knew, she would likely do anything to stave off this horror. I know this is a fictional family but it touches a nerve. There are so many real families who are caring for family members who are now strangers. Heartbreaking. 

My father Is in late stage Alzheimer’s, neurologically vegetative, and is deep in the bolded area of the disease minus the falling since he can’t walk. i have done a ton of research. I also live in San Diego which has UCSD health which has some of the best Alzheimer researchers that give lots of lecture. I agree with what you are saying, I would also recommend in person support groups, going changed my moms life.  Rebecca is 69 (?) right on the edge of “early on-set”. Most people are diagnosed more than 5 years into disease progression, which is why most medication does not work. There is evidence it does work on early diagnosis which can happen especially when it’s in the family. I do think they need to look into trials but there are some that are closer but they also need to respect the fact that right now Rebecca is capable of making her own decisions. Encouragement is fine, overriding her autonomy is not. Kevin in this instance is respecting his mothers autonomy while Randall is overriding.  The premiere was not the right place to bring it up. Kevin was right in not wanting to upset her before her big night.  The next day would have been fine. 

Edited March 12, 2020 by Aliconehead

[preeya]

23 hours ago, CleoCaesar said:

Randall: a toxic asshole then, an even more toxic asshole now. How does anyone stand him, seriously.

THIS↑  THIS↑  THIS↑

Pompous ass that won't give in to anyone.

[tennisgurl]

Randall has been really getting the villain edit lately, especially with his whole relentlessly smug "Only I can handle helping mom everyone stand back I have research!" attitude, but its been kind of leading here for awhile, especially in contrast to Kevin. Randall started the show as a nice, very likable guy with a cute family and a good if a bit boring job, who is very sympathetic due to his issues surrounding his interracial adoption/being abandoned and his crushing anxiety. Meanwhile, while Kevin isnt a bad guy or anything, but he is frequently arrogant, selfish, not a great brother, is often needless mean to Randall in flashbacks, and seems to be sailing through his perfect life as a rich TV star on his good looks, charm, and privilege, living a hedonistic lifestyle. 

However, things changed for both of them as the show went on, after a lot of major shake ups for the Pearson clan. Randall finally found his bio dad, they got close, and bio dad died soon after. This had a major effect on Randall, and his anxiety and control freak tendencies and his hero complex spiraled out of control. After losing not just one dad but two (and losing some trust in his much beloved mom who kept him from his bio dad for years, even if she had sympathetic reasons) he decided that he HAD to save people, and HAD to find connections to the father that he just met and lost, so he quit his job, and started making increasingly erratic decisions (how many career shifts are we on now, Randall?) without consulting his family or thinking about hem much. He was adopted? He has to adopt someone to save them! Dad lived in a falling apart building? He has to buy the building! City dad was from has issues? City Council, and move the family! You can see this all as his anxiety spiraling out of control (which seems inevitable, considering the severity, how long he has dealt with it, trauma after Jacks death, and how it never went treated) and needing to "fix" things and control things, because things out of his control terrify him, and he needs to feel like he is achieving great things and living up to his various parents. This led to him becoming increasingly defensive of his actions when people pushed against this, because his need to control things made him convinced that he is the only one who can make things better, he is the only one who can save the day and live up to both of his fathers memories, and anyone who says otherwise, even his own loved ones, are in the way of his control, and when he isnt in control, who knows what could happen, and his anxiety spirals. This is also all showing real tendency to think that he should be in charge, that he always knows best, which is really just a continuation of his place as the overachiever in his family, where he saw himself as the "good and responsible kid" next to Kevin's grandstanding and Kate's drama. Thats the way he sees his family, and he has no interest in changing that.Its weird to see how much Randall has spiraled into being a real unlikable pain, but I do see how it all tracks from a character perspective. One of the big flaws in Randall right now is a lack of self awareness, and inability to see any problems in what has happened lately or that he has a lot of issues that need addressing. It doesent help that things do tend to more or less work out well for Randall, no matter how increasingly half ass his life plans are, so his journey to self awareness could take awhile. 

Kevin on the other hand, has had a sort of opposite arc. Kevin started off as kind of a selfish jerk who resented his brother and wasnt as invested in family, but eventually we saw different sides to him. Some of his resentment and constant need for attention and affirmation comes from feeling he was ignored by his family and was always last choice (Randall was a mamas boy, Kate was a daddy's girl, and Kevin...was there) of kids, and he showed that he did have a very kind and empathetic side, both in flashbacks and in the present day. It became increasingly clear that his charm hid some serious self esteem issues, and that he started taking his role in the family as the smart ass slacker/dumb hot jock role so seriously, that it bled into his actual life too. Like Randall, he had an increasingly complicated serious of events happen (mostly involving romance) and like Randall, they started bringing up a lot of hidden issues, but while Randall has his anxiety, Kevin has his low self esteem (ironically, both of then struggle with feeling like outsiders in their own family) and that also spiraled, but for Kevin, it spiraled into drug addiction, which brought him to a VERY low point. However, this also led to Kevin finding some self awareness, seeing his flaws, and actually doing some soul searching to figure out why he was making these terribly self destructive choices, and that so many of his problems came from his self loathing, and a need for love and validation, and that led to a ton of his problems. He bottomed out, but that forced him to look at himself and face his problems to try and crawl out. This allowed him to show his natural empathy more often, to make connections with people, and try to be there for his family in ways that he hadn't before. He isnt totally the best and most perfect person ever or anything, but he has made changes, and that allows us to look back at some of his behavior with at least more context. Yeah he was frequently a jerk, and while it doesent excuse it, you can understand it more. Its all part of a consistent character, just one that has showed growth. 

I keep wondering if anyone will ever bring up that, if Kevin wasnt out the night of the fire, that he probably would have died too, considering he would have been in the basement, near the fire, and had a broken leg, making getting out really hard. Does he have some survivors guilt? I also saw a lot of parallels in Randall in both the past and present dismissing Kevin's acting as stupid and pointless, and Randall's "teaching housewives to twirl" comment to Beth (to me, thats probably Randall's lowest moment so far), which are both not only needlessly cruel and dickishly condescending, especially to your own brother/wife, but are just not true. Kevin is a famous and successful actor, a business that is notoriously hard to break into, while Beth has a successful dance studio in both the present and future while also doing most of the raising of three daughters. Not exactly doing pointless things that mean nothing.    

[Janie430]

So I maybe empathize with Kevin more, because in some ways, I was the Randall of my family - easier personality for my parents, but also anxious, and absorbing positive energy from my parents that should have gone to my sister.

With teen Randall, you can see the way that he grabs the suitcase and puts it into the car, and gives his mom a big smile.  He's starting to relish being the man of the family and the helper role, and you see Rebecca going along with it, because it seems considerate, and makes him happy.  But, ironically, by doing that, they're starting down a path that is going to an unhealthy place - with Randall having to be savior, and Rebecca being treated as frail.

I feel like the retcon of Rebecca's dad being wealthy actually hurt the storyline in some ways?  It gives us insight into why Jack was so insecure, but one of the consistent things all along was that Rebecca and Jack were kind of in awe of Randall's brains and his grades, and because of that, they treated Randall as the "winning kid" who was going to be the family success, and Kevin, in contrast, was ordinary.

And a rich girl growing up in the fifties and sixties wouldn't have been impressed with Randall's brains in that way - not in awe like that.  Even in the most WASP-y club, she would have met at least a few overachievers with great grades.  She would have met a couple of scholarship boys.  So while I buy that Jack, blue collar guy wouldn't have been into taking his boy to therapy for his anxiety and over-achieving to the point of destructiveness, l'm not seeing Rebecca being that adverse and not pushing more.  She's never been shy about pushing for Randall - she pushed Jack to get over his jealousy of the teacher.  She pushed the judge.  She pushed her Mom on her racism.  So why not for professional help with his anxiety?  What was it about that issue that just made her be like "nope"?

[txhorns79]

1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Yes, it’s Rebecca’s decision, but I don’t think it’s  an informed one.  She seems to have no idea just what lies ahead and I suppose that could be a blessing, but, if she knew, she would likely do anything to stave off this horror. I know this is a fictional family but it touches a nerve. There are so many real families who are caring for family members who are now strangers. Heartbreaking. 

I think Rebecca was well informed.  Randall's idea was to send her off to strange city for nine months for a study that may do nothing except waste a lot of time that she doesn't have.  That would be a tough sell for even the most desperate person.   

[ErinV]

6 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

You know, I didn't love the bob and glasses with that dress.  It kind of felt a little too much "librarian on her night out."  I thought it would have looked better with her hair up and some more chic frames. 

 

It amazed me that Randall was fine with shipping off Rebecca to St. Louis for nine months without even discussing it with her husband.  The lack of respect for his mother's marriage from someone who brags about how he has "been there" for his mother for 20 years just makes me want to scream. 

Exactly- put on some evening makeup and maybe contacts!  I thought she sort of looked silly in the dress bc of that.

the WORST was when teen Randall (with his bad acting, may be UO) tried to order for his mom at the pizza place.  Seriously dude?  She’s not a child.  What did Beth see in him?  When TIU first started he was funny and fun with his family.  I can’t see how teen Randall turned into that.

Along those lines, when did sullen PTSD jack turn into fun dad Jack?  It’s like four separate characters with him and Randall. 

[preeya]

My two cents: A trial is just that "a trial" 

The main purpose of clinical trials is research. Trials are designed to add to medical knowledge related to the treatment, diagnosis, and prevention of diseases or conditions.

Human beings with common ailments, sicknesses, physical/mental issues are the subjects of live, real time experiments. There are no guarantees that anyone in the trial will be cured or relieved of anything. It is time consuming and regimented with no guarantees for success.

 

[CarpeFelis]

34 minutes ago, ErinV said:

the WORST was when teen Randall (with his bad acting, may be UO) tried to order for his mom at the pizza place.  Seriously dude?  She’s not a child.  What did Beth see in him?

I think that was the point where I started getting creeped out by Randall’s attitude. He presumed to declare what Rebecca likes/doesn’t like WITH REBECCA SITTING RIGHT THERE, perfectly able to speak up for herself. And then when she leaves he wants to go with her (because apparently heaven forbid she doesn’t have his supervision). I just about cheered when Kevin said “She’s a grown woman”! (And was surprised Beth didn’t say anything. Was Teen Beth especially shy? Adult Beth doesn’t seem like she’d hold back.) He doesn’t just treat her like a child, he’s downright infantilizing her.

I don’t feel real sorry for Rebecca, though, because she’s largely responsible for this pattern. She should have nipped this crap in the bud by putting her foot down about college and sending him off to the one he really wanted to go to instead of letting him stay in Pittsburgh to “help” her. That wasn’t healthy for either of them.

And I agree with you — what the heck did Beth see in him? In her shoes I’d feel like his relationship with his mother didn’t leave any room for me!

[Crs97]

1 hour ago, Janie430 said:

She's never been shy about pushing for Randall - she pushed Jack to get over his jealousy of the teacher.  She pushed the judge.  She pushed her Mom on her racism.  So why not for professional help with his anxiety?  What was it about that issue that just made her be like "nope"?

In the report card scene in the Clouds episode, she tells Jack she thinks Randall is getting worse and he blows her off, instead just teaching Randall to run to burn off his anxiety.  I think she assumed Jack was right, to Randall’s detriment.

[The Ringo Kidd]

I am really not looking forward to the scene where Randall chews Rebecca’s food for her.

 

[memememe76]

I think Miguel is patient with Rebecca’s kids because his own kids treat Rebecca terribly too. At least the Big 3 are present in their parent’s life. There are still two seasons left, I suspect we will get more Miguel backstory next season. 

[Alice Mudgarden]

On 3/11/2020 at 12:59 AM, t7686 said:

Hopefully at some point someone will be brave enough to say it hopefully in front of a therapist- which they all need. 

It's been a while, but didn't the family (maybe not Kate so much) have kind of a negative reaction during Kevin's therapy when he went to rehab? To varying degrees, at least. Not about the night of the fire, per se, but just when Kevin tried to raise issues about things he felt that caused him to drink? I can't remember all the details but I do vaguely remember being annoyed on Kevin's behalf because he was trying and it felt like no one was listening. Or rather, they were listening but they weren't hearing. 

17 hours ago, cardigirl said:

And I think Kevin feels much guilt about not being there the night of the fire. It wasn't explicitly expressed as such in this episode, but he married young, he went away to NYC, he rejected the closeness of the family, because he felt unworthy of it. Part of his resentment of Randall is that he was there, and went through it, and I don't think he blames Randall, per se, but he does blame him for taking over as if he were the anointed one. 

Also, Rebecca set up the competition between those two from a very early age because she so focused on Randall and his needs, and Kevin was often left out, and now he gets a chance to do something for her and be closer to her, Randall is all kinds of green jealous. 

I bolded those two parts because they're just so related. Part of me also wouldn't be surprised if Randall felt so comfortable dismissing Kevin's acting aspirations so openly because, indirectly, Kevin was dismissed in the family (generally speaking).

Speaking of: did anyone else notice the way the NYC trip with Jack had initially broken down, scheduling wise? Randall's choice got two hours, Kate's got an hour and a half and Kevin's got an hour. Kevin got literally half the time allotted to Randall.

Taking the fact that all of their plans plus a trip to the Met plus meals is about zero percent feasible out of it, that just says it all, doesn't it?

Edited March 12, 2020 by Alice Mudgarden

[bybrandy]

14 minutes ago, Alice Mudgarden said:

Speaking of: did anyone else notice the way the NYC trip with Jack had initially broken down, scheduling wise? Randall's choice got two hours, Kate's got an hour and a half and Kevin's got an hour. Kevin got literally half the time allotted to Randall.

Well to the extent that kids are always keeping score and parents should be aware of that I get your point but on the other hand some things take longer than others.  With Kate's activity you need to allow time to sit and order and for the food to come out.  With Kevin's activity it is a giant store.  you go in.  You ooh.  You awe.  You play with some things but there is no time required for the toy store to deliver something to you.  The toy store experience is waiting when you get there.  It takes less time.  The natural history museum is pay what you want but you get the ticket at the admission counter.  It takes time then you have to navigate the museum.   Randall likely saw less of what he wanted to see at the museum than Kev got to see at the toy store and likely Kate got to try everything she wanted at tea.  

[Alice Mudgarden]

2 minutes ago, bybrandy said:

Well to the extent that kids are always keeping score and parents should be aware of that I get your point but on the other hand some things take longer than others.  With Kate's activity you need to allow time to sit and order and for the food to come out.  With Kevin's activity it is a giant store.  you go in.  You ooh.  You awe.  You play with some things but there is no time required for the toy store to deliver something to you.  The toy store experience is waiting when you get there.  It takes less time.  The natural history museum is pay what you want but you get the ticket at the admission counter.  It takes time then you have to navigate the museum.   Randall likely saw less of what he wanted to see at the museum than Kev got to see at the toy store and likely Kate got to try everything she wanted at tea.  

True, but a store like FAO Schwarz, anytime I've gone in, is a zoo. It's big, it's busy and has a ton going on. Maybe not museum sized, but it's not the toy store in the mall, either.

Regardless, it should have been about time allotted; 11-1 is Randall, 2-4 is Kate, 4-6 is Kevin, and in those two hours it's about what that kid wants to do. If you want to go different places, cool; if you want to spend it all at one place, that's cool too. Because toy store or museum, you're feeling an hour vs. double that. It's really not fair.

[chocolatine]

28 minutes ago, bybrandy said:

Well to the extent that kids are always keeping score and parents should be aware of that I get your point but on the other hand some things take longer than others.  With Kate's activity you need to allow time to sit and order and for the food to come out.  With Kevin's activity it is a giant store.  you go in.  You ooh.  You awe.  You play with some things but there is no time required for the toy store to deliver something to you.  The toy store experience is waiting when you get there.  It takes less time.  The natural history museum is pay what you want but you get the ticket at the admission counter.  It takes time then you have to navigate the museum.   Randall likely saw less of what he wanted to see at the museum than Kev got to see at the toy store and likely Kate got to try everything she wanted at tea.  

I agree, it sounded like Jack tried to factor in all of the logistics. Still, I think everyone got short-changed on time. I don't know if it's just me, but I feel like large museums require a lot more time to fully appreciate the exhibits. 4-5 hours for the Met, and for some museums I like to dedicate an entire day (e.g. the V&A in London). And browsing a huge store can easily take several hours as well. It would have made more sense for them to split up - for Rebecca and Randall to hit the two museums, and for Jack to take Kevin and Kate to FAO Schwartz and then tea at the Plaza. Then they could have met up in the evening for the carriage ride in Central Park (though I do have to agree with Kirby that those are cheesy and bad for the horses). 

Edited March 12, 2020 by chocolatine

[debraran]

6 hours ago, Crs97 said:

In the report card scene in the Clouds episode, she tells Jack she thinks Randall is getting worse and he blows her off, instead just teaching Randall to run to burn off his anxiety.  I think she assumed Jack was right, to Randall’s detriment.

Jack to be fair, always did that with Rebecca. He loved her but she followed him. From the start of the show, the apartment, the house, the cabin, the new house, he "included" her in the way some ask their kids, "Do you want to do this?" but not really wanting or hearing the negative answer. She was bright and was with the kids more. She saw Kate was not being healthy but Jack wanted to be her prince, she saw Randall's anxiety but Jack thought it could be fixed, Kevin was just "Kevin" but no one saw him at all. He did undermine her at times and even if not done in a cruel way, even asking her to change Kate's costume, showed her time and thoughts were not uppermost. I feel you were supposed to fill in the days we didn't see as being more of the same.  He loved her and his kids, but like all of us, didn't see the whole picture.

I still see that passiveness in her today but we had "thumbs up" moments where I cheered her aggressiveness and standing up for herself.

Edited March 12, 2020 by debraran

[ShadowFacts]

4 hours ago, Alice Mudgarden said:

Speaking of: did anyone else notice the way the NYC trip with Jack had initially broken down, scheduling wise? Randall's choice got two hours, Kate's got an hour and a half and Kevin's got an hour. Kevin got literally half the time allotted to Randall.

Taking the fact that all of their plans plus a trip to the Met plus meals is about zero percent feasible out of it, that just says it all, doesn't it?

I noticed it, I think we were supposed to otherwise Jack could have just ticked off the places and the order. But as has been said by chocolatine and bybrandy, museums take longer. Toy stores aren't museum-like, they want you to buy so their displays are built for that.  If they are now middle school-aged, Kevin is aging out of toys, he just wanted to replicate Home Alone 2. Trying to equalize the time seems like a losing proposition to begin with, but an hour in a toy store for a big kid like him seems adequate.

[lu1535]

On 3/10/2020 at 9:20 PM, BuckeyeLou said:

Rebecca looks so beautiful in that purple sequin dress & she is so happy, she is glowing.  Mandy Moore is doing such a phenomenal job as older Rebecca.  

But I still hate the hairstyle they've given her!

[MissLucas]

I thought the whole NY scheme was crazy to begin with. Either find something they all equally enjoy or split up. Rebecca and Randall to the Natural History Museum and the Met (as they both seem to be the only ones enjoying museums) and Jack takes Kate and Kevin to their spots. Kevin enjoyed the hotel and I guess Kate was okay with FAO Schwarz  but since that was Kevin's option we didn't even get to see it - right on theme show 😁

[kirkola]

3 hours ago, debraran said:

Jack to be fair, always did that with Rebecca. He loved her but she followed him. From the start of the show, the apartment, the house, the cabin, the new house, he "included" her in the way some ask their kids, "Do you want to do this?" but not really wanting or hearing the negative answer. She was bright and was with the kids more. She saw Kate was not being healthy but Jack wanted to be her prince, she saw Randall's anxiety but Jack thought it could be fixed, Kevin was just "Kevin" but no one saw him at all. He did undermine her at times and even if not done in a cruel way, even asking her to change Kate's costume, showed her time and thoughts were not uppermost. I feel you were supposed to fill in the days we didn't see as being more of the same.  He loved her and his kids, but like all of us, didn't see the whole picture.

I still see that passiveness in her today but we had "thumbs up" moments where I cheered her aggressiveness and standing up for herself.

I do believe that's a generational thing.  Both Jack and Rebecca were raised that the male parent was the final decision maker, even if he was wrong.  And also that you do not ever disagree with the the male parent.  My parents were the same.  It's one of those pesky lessons you teach your kids by doing and not by telling.   Women may have been burning bras and demanding equality in the streets, but in suburban homes...they were still towing the line. 

[Ohiopirate02]

19 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

I thought the whole NY scheme was crazy to begin with. Either find something they all equally enjoy or split up. Rebecca and Randall to the Natural History Museum and the Met (as they both seem to be the only ones enjoying museums) and Jack takes Kate and Kevin to their spots. Kevin enjoyed the hotel and I guess Kate was okay with FAO Schwarz  but since that was Kevin's option we didn't even get to see it - right on theme show 😁

Yes, when you have 3 children with divergent interests you need to split up sometimes.  Rebecca and Randall could have gone uptown to the museums while Jake took Kevin and Kate to FAO Schwartz and some other Home Alone related activity.  Then they all meet up at the Plaza for tea and talk about their day.  

[Natalie25]

I like how Jack's NYC activity ends up based on Home Alone 2 - I think it must have been nice for Kevin to realize that his father appreciated something he'd shared with him.

[Euphony]

Oof... things are getting polarizing...

I don't think Randall is correct in his approach, but I really sympathize with his feelings. He feels like he found something that could be a game changer, and it must be terribly frustrating that he is so powerless to make it happen. His approach does suck, though. He is not explaining the virtue of this particular trial at all. He needs to realize that he is not the de facto decision maker for Rebecca. That would be Rebecca. He is not pitching it to her beyond "I really think this is what is best for you. Trust me." I still feel for him, though, and think people are being a little hard on him.

I also fear that they are over correcting Kevin a little too much this season. I don't think we can be entirely uncritical of his motivation here either. He is basking in his mother's love and favour for the first time in his life and probably doesn't want to give that up. (This is also very understandable, in my opinion.) The conversation I would want to see is Kevin asking Randall for information on the clinical trial rather than dismissing it out of hand, and Randall providing it rather than just telling everyone to trust his judgment uncritically.

Also: I really don't think kid Randall is an ass at all, so it surprises me that people say that. If he digs in to Kevin a bit, it is because Kevin has been shown to be pretty merciless in the past. It was really on Jack and Rebecca to step in for both of them. Kev and Randall have a pretty complicated relationship. Probably my favourite of the series. I recently went back and watched the season one episode where, after a public fight in which Kevin states that he felt replaced, Randall points out to Kevin that is was the first time he acknowledged him as a brother. There is a lot of pain on both sides.

[Scout Finch]

I think they didn't show the FAO Schwartz trip because displays would have to be set up with toys from that era, and it wasn't worth it for what would probably be just 30 seconds or less of that scene. The museum and hotel interiors are rather timeless and it would take just a tweak to fix any small details that were decade-specific.

I would have liked to see it because TOYS!

Edited March 12, 2020 by Scout Finch

[CarpeFelis]

49 minutes ago, Euphony said:

Also: I really don't think kid Randall is an ass at all, so it surprises me that people say that. If he digs in to Kevin a bit, it is because Kevin has been shown to be pretty merciless in the past. It was really on Jack and Rebecca to step in for both of them. Kev and Randall have a pretty complicated relationship. Probably my favourite of the series. I recently went back and watched the season one episode where, after a public fight in which Kevin states that he felt replaced, Randall points out to Kevin that is was the first time he acknowledged him as a brother. There is a lot of pain on both sides.

Kevin and Randall as kids were just about equally obnoxious to one another. But when Randall started trying to be the “man of the house” and presuming to know what’s best for his grown-ass mother, that’s where he started to be insufferable.

ETA: I don’t think Randall is a horrible person, at least not on purpose. He means well, but his savior complex and control issues are way over the top.

Edited March 12, 2020 by CarpeFelis
additional thought

[Ohiopirate02]

7 minutes ago, CarpeFelis said:

Kevin and Randall as kids were just about equally obnoxious to one another. But when Randall started trying to be the “man of the house” and presuming to know what’s best for his grown-ass mother, that’s where he started to be insufferable.

ETA: I don’t think Randall is a horrible person, at least not on purpose. He means well, but his savior complex and control issues are way over the top.

For me Randall became insufferable when he was unwilling to compromise with his siblings.  Kevin wasn't too keen on talking to Rebecca about the drug trial, but he did consent after Kate.  His asking Randall to wait until the next day because Rebecca was having so much fun was not a big ask, but to Randall it was.  Honestly, I don't understand why Randall came up to New York on the day of Kevin's premiere instead of the next day to begin with.  Let Rebecca and Kevin have their day, and talk about the drug trial over brunch before they head back to California.  Or have Kevin and Rebecca come down to Philly for the talk.  But no, Randall had to do it immediately and when Kevin asked him to put it off he was silently seething the whole rest of the day.  Instead of enjoying himself at the party, he was looking for his way in to have that talk with Rebecca.  

[SunnyBeBe]

Why do I dislike Jack so much now?  After all these seasons, I'd think I'd know him better and like him more since in his family's eyes, he's perfect.   Instead of growing on me, he annoys me. 

[CarpeFelis]

 

1 minute ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Why do I dislike Jack so much now?  After all these seasons, I'd think I'd know him better and like him more since in his family's eyes, he's perfect.   Instead of growing on me, he annoys me. 

I never did like Jack all that much and still can’t figure out what was so freaking great about him or what Rebecca saw in him. The Pearson speechifying in particular was annoying as hell. The New York trip where Rebecca had been there before and knew what she was talking about, yet he kept overriding her, made me dislike him even more.

[Alice Mudgarden]

5 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

I noticed it, I think we were supposed to otherwise Jack could have just ticked off the places and the order. But as has been said by chocolatine and bybrandy, museums take longer. Toy stores aren't museum-like, they want you to buy so their displays are built for that.  If they are now middle school-aged, Kevin is aging out of toys, he just wanted to replicate Home Alone 2. Trying to equalize the time seems like a losing proposition to begin with, but an hour in a toy store for a big kid like him seems adequate.

Oh there was nothing realistic about the timing of any of it. Any museum on its own, two hours isn't enough; not to really see anything. I had to force that out of my mind haha.

Splitting up is probably the perfect idea but Jack... wasn't equipped for that, shall we say. Given that, I still stand by the time fairness, personally. Kids who get along are gonna at least question it if they feel like their side was short changed. Kevin's motivations vs. Randall's for their choices is sort of irrelevant imo; they're different people. Kevin liked a movie and wanted to experience things from it; that's not any less valid or worthy of time than a museum, at least to me. I could be the cheese standing alone haha

[kirkola]

19 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

The boys seem to be more concerned with what they want, and not remotely give a shit about what their mother wants.  Rebecca is to blame for much of that.   She never set boundaries. 

Also St. Jack who led by example.  He picked out the house, bought it and presented it unfinished to Rebecca as "here's the house for you".  Never mind that she might have wanted to live somewhere else. 

It's one of the reasons I have never really enjoyed the big romantic gesture.  It's all about the giver choosing what the receiver wants/needs.  Sure it's sweet and romantic, but saying "I don't want that" ruins the moment.  So Rebecca just goes along with it because it's sweet and Jack is being thoughtful.  But is it really thoughtful, when she doesn't get to have a say in its execution? 

And unfortunately, her kids saw Rebecca spend a life time of "going along with it".  And it's led to the Big 3 to make some pretty crappy decisions.

[Scout Finch]

Randall said the dioramas were the reason he wanted to go to the museum so the time allowance works in that instance. I remember the first time I saw dioramas was in the Royal BC Museum during a trip to Victoria, BC, and thinking those were so cool (and I was in my late 20s) and that was the main thing I then wanted to see at the Natural History Museum when I went to New York in 2000.

[ShadowFacts]

4 hours ago, CarpeFelis said:

Kevin and Randall as kids were just about equally obnoxious to one another. But when Randall started trying to be the “man of the house” and presuming to know what’s best for his grown-ass mother, that’s where he started to be insufferable.

ETA: I don’t think Randall is a horrible person, at least not on purpose. He means well, but his savior complex and control issues are way over the top.

No, not a horrible person by a long shot.  There are worse things than having a close bond with your widowed mother and caring deeply about her welfare.  After a certain point in their twenties Kate and Kevin were both on the west coast for years, and Rebecca would have been naturally more dependent on Randall because he's closer geographically.  Rebecca blurted out in Kevin's family therapy session that at least Randall didn't take off on her, indicating her feeling of abandonment.  So she fed into Randall's sense of importance to her.  Randall's idea that he knows best became ingrained over the years and intertwined with his anxiety until now where he's truly overstepping boundaries. 

3 hours ago, Alice Mudgarden said:

Oh there was nothing realistic about the timing of any of it. Any museum on its own, two hours isn't enough; not to really see anything. I had to force that out of my mind haha.

Splitting up is probably the perfect idea but Jack... wasn't equipped for that, shall we say. Given that, I still stand by the time fairness, personally. Kids who get along are gonna at least question it if they feel like their side was short changed. Kevin's motivations vs. Randall's for their choices is sort of irrelevant imo; they're different people. Kevin liked a movie and wanted to experience things from it; that's not any less valid or worthy of time than a museum, at least to me. I could be the cheese standing alone haha

I don't think it's ultimately beneficial for kids to think they're entitled to and going to get a fair slice of any particular thing, including time.  Unless you're an only child, you're going to get the short straw from time to time and that's not a bad life lesson to absorb.  One of my kids' kindergarten teachers used to tell whining kids "you get what you get and you like it."  Because the parsing of who got more or better becomes endless.  When things went awry, these Pearson kids were actually pretty chill in their reactions for pre-teens. 

 

 

[CarpeFelis]

3 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

No, not a horrible person by a long shot.  There are worse things than having a close bond with your widowed mother and caring deeply about her welfare.  After a certain point in their twenties Kate and Kevin were both on the west coast for years, and Rebecca would have been naturally more dependent on Randall because he's closer geographically.  Rebecca blurted out in Kevin's family therapy session that at least Randall didn't take off on her, indicating her feeling of abandonment.  So she fed into Randall's sense of importance to her.  Randall's idea that he knows best became ingrained over the years and intertwined with his anxiety until now where he's truly overstepping boundaries.

I think a parent, unless actually disabled in some way (and widowed is not disabled, no matter how learned-helpless Rebecca may have been), should not expect their adult children to stick around so the parent can depend upon them. Rebecca making that comment is a great big parenting fail.

[Ohiopirate02]

12 minutes ago, CarpeFelis said:

I think a parent, unless actually disabled in some way (and widowed is not disabled, no matter how learned-helpless Rebecca may have been), should not expect their adult children to stick around so the parent can depend upon them. Rebecca making that comment is a great big parenting fail.

I will give Rebecca credit for realizing how awful that comment was.  She has tried to do better since then when it comes to Kevin.