S04.E12: Patty

[chaifan]

2 hours ago, Blakeston said:

So the people who made it to the Good Place really were terrific people who lived exemplary lives. But they don't give a damn about the fate of virtually everyone they knew on earth?

Considering that the newest occupant of the Good Place has been there for 500 years, everyone they all knew has been long dead.  And if they didn't come to the Good Place, well... so they already know their fate. 

What I'm now wondering is, were these all of the Good Place inhabitants?  I'm guessing no, that there are other neighborhoods with more Good Place residents.  So will Team Cockroach travel from neighborhood to neighborhood informing everyone of the new plan?  Is there Good Place Twitter or Facebook, or the evening news, to get this out to everyone?

Also, I wonder if they'll address what happens to either the very young or very old who get into the Good Place?  It would suck to be stuck at 7 or 12 or 85 for eternity. 

And, I'm really sort of sad Mindy wasn't at the party.  I was really hoping they'd bump her up into the Good Place, too.  I'm going to be a little mad if the series ends improving the Bad Place and the Good Place, but doing nothing for Mindy and leaving her for eternity in her own desolate Middle Place.

[SomeTameGazelle]

2 hours ago, Ray Adverb said:

Chidi going fanboy over some ancient philosopher most people have never heard of was gold.

I loved everything about Chidi and Patty. (Incidentally, Rachel Weisz played Hypatia in the movie Agora.) Lisa Kudrow trying to think of words and describing math just killed me.

[BobH]

So, I guess Michael was right about Phoebe being the one character in FRIENDS who didn't deserve the Bad Place...

This did kind of explain the Good Place Committee always being ready to give up and concede anything in the last few episodes. We never did get to see any Good Place architects in any meaningful way (just non-speaking roles in the end of the previous episode). I guess they were unaware of the problem. Maybe Michael was right back in season one about them just setting up the neighbourhoods and not interacting with the residents, so they've just been waiting 500+ years for new residents.

 

[sharifa70]

I laughed way too hard at Michael accidentally conjuring the weed when Jason offered to hold it for him (before it existed). 

I also didn’t interpret the “other” door as encouragement to end it all. I interpreted it as more of a promise. People are encouraged to seek pleasure or just do nothing, but they’re free to go rather than being trapped. 

[DoubleUTeeEff]

I feel so alone. The idea of nothingness feels comforting to me. Especially if you have as much time as you want free of suffering and as many experiences as you can imagine beforehand.

I wonder if the door doesn't actually lead to nothingness but rather leads back to Earth. A Reincarnation Door.

1 hour ago, SomeTameGazelle said:

Lisa Kudrow trying to think of words and describing math just killed me.

She was so so funny! "I have math on my shirt! Is that an S or a math?"

I loved Jason offering to hold Michael's weed for him and Michael actually smoking weed.

[Lugal]

It was interesting and I hope the show doesn't go with the your existence ends when you walk through the door.  Michael did say they don't know what's on the other side of it.  I'm trusting the show to not go the easy route, and there's a lot of interesting things they could do with it.

4 hours ago, Notwisconsin said:

In Medieval Christian theology, the people in heaven become sadists and spend eternity watching the tortures of Hell and having a wonderful time doing it.

Just ask Hypatia how she died.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 1/23/2020 at 11:39 PM, jmonique said:

Also, I'm surprised they'd jump straight to letting everyone engage in assisted suicide, as opposed to, say, starting new programs and activities: Chidi teaches philosophy and learns guitar from Jimmy Hendrix; Tahani becomes a talk show host, etc. Basically, institute things for people to work on and toward, helping one another, as opposed to just letting Janets fulfill their every material desire. The Fake Good Place had people working in roles, and activities for residents.

 

On 1/24/2020 at 12:01 AM, Amarsir said:

I didn't hate it, but it does disappoint me that they thought what's missing is an exit and not some sense of purpose. Since episode one I've been bothered that people in The Good Place didn't seem to care about other humans - either in The Bad Place or back on Earth. Now demons are designing tests to make humans better, but Good Place people only pursue hedonism? Seems like a miss to me.

 

On 1/24/2020 at 8:02 AM, Blakeston said:

So the people who made it to the Good Place really were terrific people who lived exemplary lives. But they don't give a damn about the fate of virtually everyone they knew on earth?

Even if they weren't specifically told about how horrible the Bad Place is, they still should have been deeply concerned about how few people were in the Good Place, and what that meant for the rest of humanity.

Exactly, Chidi didn't have all the philosophical answers as soon as he entered The Good Place.  He could still enjoy debating other philosophers, reading, a new hobby, etc., as could everyone else.  Since they keep track of trends on Earth, perhaps they could try to figure out how to solve some of the big problems on Earth, and how to intervene!

On 1/24/2020 at 7:15 AM, companionenvy said:

I have to say that it is a sign of this show's enduring brilliance that they introduced a version of Hypatia of Alexandria who is played by Lisa Kudrow, goes by Patty, and can't remember the word math.

 

On 1/24/2020 at 11:53 AM, BobH said:

So, I guess Michael was right about Phoebe being the one character in FRIENDS who didn't deserve the Bad Place...

Here's a good discussion of why Lisa Kudrow was the perfect choice:  https://www.eonline.com/news/1115369/after-so-many-jokes-the-good-place-delivered-one-final-and-excellent-friends-surprise

On 1/24/2020 at 12:14 PM, Lugal said:

Just ask Hypatia how she died.

Yup.  Here's a sober discussion of the real Hypatia of Alexandria:   ttps://www.esquire.com/entertainment/tv/a30653064/hypatia-of-alexandria-lisa-kudrow-the-good-place-season-4-explained/  (It would have been a real downer if anyone had asked her how she died.)

 

On 1/24/2020 at 10:56 AM, chaifan said:

Also, I wonder if they'll address what happens to either the very young or very old who get into the Good Place?  It would suck to be stuck at 7 or 12 or 85 for eternity. 

Like Kirstin Dunst in Interview with a Vampire.

There should be at least a dozen children for every adult in The Good Place.  How many children, especially in the distant past, could have earned negative points?  Especially infants and toddlers.

Edited January 27, 2020 by ItCouldBeWorse

[whiporee]

They could have ended it there and I'd be fine. The episode was sweet if rushed, and if they wanted to wrap it up like that they would have salvaged a lot of the issues I've had for the last two weeks. They explained the behavior off the Good Place Committee -- they just wanted out. It wasn't as much a commentary on politics as it was a commentary on the idea of just being done and wanting someone else to take over. Shawn wants control? Fine. Whatever. let's just get this all over with. 

And seeing Chidi one Eleanor on the couch was perfect. "The Good Place is time," was perfect. I don't love Kudrow, but she was perfect in the role. So they could put a bow on it and I'd be cool and would defend it to the ends of the Earth. And if next week they want too show us the gang going through their lives, and then eventually deciding to go through the door, I could see the six of them going arm and arm and we're left guessing as to what happens next.  

But ...

Spoiler

On the podcast today,. Executive Producer Morgan Sackett said we're going to see what happens on the other side of the door. And that we've got at least one more twist. He was also very -- VERY -- quick to shout down any comparison to the Wizard of Oz. Almost to a point of defensiveness. So I'm going back to Eleanor having suffered brain trauma from her shopping-cart collision, and that everyone we've see is a part of her life. Jason's her dumb but friend pal, Tahani is her socially-aware, fashion obsessed pal, Chidi's her boyfriend (or smart buddy). I don't know about Janet or Michael, but I think it ends up explained. I don't know that, but they made it clear there was something -- something -- else going on. 

Regardless of the way it ends, it's been a hell of a ride. Or maybe a heaven of a ride. But either way, it's been darn near perfect. 

[chaifan]

19 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

There should be at least a dozen children for every adult in The Good Place.  How many children, especially in the distant past, could have earned negative points?  Especially infants and toddlers.

 

Well, considering infants and toddlers act only on instinct, and that instinct is wholly self serving (survival), if there were being points awarded at that young of an age then it would be almost completely negative points.  Granted, they don't intend to pee or poop or barf on you just to ruin your best outfit, or keep you awake all night or screech during a wedding or... you get the picture.  But as we've seen with Doug, intention has nothing to do with points. 

By about age 7 or older, it's a mixed bag, but I still see more opportunities for negative points than positive points. 

Regardless, any place where children outnumber adults by 12 to 1 is automatically The Bad Place.  Unless there's a lot of booze in those milkshakes!

 

[meep.meep]

5 hours ago, ClareWalks said:

I'm surprised so many people are so bothered by the nonexistance option. That's what afterlife means to many, many folks who are agnostic or atheist. Not sure why it's depressing, since people who choose to go through will no longer have consciousness, so it's not like they're forever sitting in darkness. Plus they only walk through when and IF they choose to.

I think it's the fact that the inhabitants actually get to choose their own fate that's the critical point.  They can enjoy paradise as long as they want to, then they can choose to move on.  Or they can choose to stay.

There's been no individual choice in any of the places and systems that our merry gang has been through.  There have been architects, and point systems, and judging, and torturing, but never a chance to make a choice about their own fates.  Earning that ability is a decent reward for good people.

[shantown]

"Look, there's math on my shirt. Is it an S or a math?" I don't know why this line made me laugh so hard, but I had to pause the episode for a minute before I got the hiccups. (Side note, I might LEGIT be into Lisa Kudrow?)

I'm hoping next week we come to a conclusion that somehow wraps in "What do we owe to each other?" That was such an integral piece of earlier seasons, and also I just really like the concept. I'm not witty enough to figure out how they all twist together, but "what do we owe to each other" plus "hell is other people" and "heaven is time with people you love" could be an interesting way of wrapping things up.

[cpcathy]

22 minutes ago, shantown said:

"Look, there's math on my shirt. Is it an S or a math?" I don't know why this line made me laugh so hard, but I had to pause the episode for a minute before I got the hiccups. (Side note, I might LEGIT be into Lisa Kudrow?)

 

I laughed pretty hard too. According to the podcast, this was thrown in at the very last minute.

[jade.black]

As someone whose greatest fear has always been infinity, this hit pretty hard. Being afraid of death yet also wanting an afterlife but not an eternal afterlife is confusing and terrifying, and to me, the idea of a door to end the mental anguish that has to come with there being no END to anything is a great solution. I'm not sure if people are uncomfortable with that idea because they haven't fully considered what it would be like to truly go on endlessly for all time (except, of course, there is no time), but retaining the mental function we currently have would mean we'd either go insane or have to end up mindless zombies like the Good Place residents they showed this episode. I'm actually thrilled a TV show addressed that issue.

So I liked this episode and everything it explored while also still being hilarious (the math lines had me cracking up and Chidi's fanboy moments were acted out perfectly). My biggest complaint is actually that the real Good Place just seemed a lot like the fake "Good Place" we started with. Call on a Janet, ask for anything, small town utopia in a park like setting, etc etc. I mean I get budget constraints, but it didn't feel like anything we hadn't seen before.

[possibilities]

3 hours ago, Lugal said:

Just ask Hypatia how she died.

Indeed!

I have a hard time with the idea that they created a door without knowing where it leads.

Why would it be necessary to stipulate that you can't grow once you reach the Good Place? All you had to do was be more good than bad and have a positive point total. There doesn't have to be an upper limit on development. Also, the way they characterize the GP as being all about material acquisition is in opposition to everything the show previously showed us, where it was all about love, essentially.

I don't think stagnation is a principle of the universe. Buddhists would say the opposite. And in that system, achievement of perfection is blissful, not terrifying, because of its embrace of a perpetually dynamic state.

 

[albinerhawk]

I almost think that Michael's demonic version looked more ideal, as it was presented. Different activities (flying, pet day) for the neighborhood were cycled in. Residents were encouraged to fulfill their dreams, such as opening a restaurant. Chidi wanted to continue working on his book. Maybe Eleanor and Tahani could find some other self-actualizing hobby. Just because one reaches paradise doesn't mean that creativity dies. As Eleanor stated, a vacation is only special if it ends. So what these people really need to do is get to work.

[DanaK]

Producer Mike Schur talks to Variety about the episode and the philosophy behind the questions raised https://variety.com/2020/tv/features/the-good-place-finals-season-penultimate-episode-patty-door-choice-death-with-dignity-interview-1203477066/

Edited January 24, 2020 by DanaK

[Guest]

51 minutes ago, jade.black said:

I'm not sure if people are uncomfortable with that idea because they haven't fully considered what it would be like to truly go on endlessly for all time (except, of course, there is no time), but retaining the mental function we currently have would mean we'd either go insane or have to end up mindless zombies like the Good Place residents they showed this episode. I'm actually thrilled a TV show addressed that issue.

I agree. Most of suggestions of things they could add would still get old after a few hundred years. 

 

29 minutes ago, possibilities said:

Why would it be necessary to stipulate that you can't grow once you reach the Good Place? All you had to do was be more good than bad and have a positive point total. There doesn't have to be an upper limit on development. Also, the way they characterize the GP as being all about material acquisition is in opposition to everything the show previously showed us, where it was all about love, essentially.

I don’t think they were saying that you can’t grow once you reach the Good Place. They were dealing with people who had already spent a minimum of 500 years in the afterlife. They’ve probably grown as much as they are going to in their existing environment. 

I see it as the showing that contrast and variety are necessary. It made me think of the concept of yin and yang. 

[cpcathy]

I think the episode was a very nice nod to people who believe in neither heaven or hell, or an afterlife, that when you die, existence just ends and that's it.

[Fukui San]

If I were on the committee to design an afterlife and I were asked to address this problem, I might suggest having one door for Earthly reincarnation, one door for memory reset, and one door for dissolution. 

[steelyis]

5 hours ago, Lugal said:

Just ask Hypatia how she died.

 

5 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Yup.  Here's a sober discussion of the real Hypatia of Alexandria:   ttps://www.esquire.com/entertainment/tv/a30653064/hypatia-of-alexandria-lisa-kudrow-the-good-place-season-4-explained/  (It would have been a real downer if anyone had asked her how she died.

Holy shirt!

After wiki'ing Hypatia, I wondered if it wasn't a good thing her memory was foggy. That was a horrible way to die! Still, it was cool to discover how respected and loved she was by her community. I'm not used to reading about women back then being celebrated for their intelligence.

[Fukui San]

4 minutes ago, steelyis said:

 

Holy shirt!

After wiki'ing Hypatia, I wondered if it wasn't a good thing her memory was foggy. That was a horrible way to die! Still, it was cool to discover how respected and loved she was by her community. I'm not used to reading about women back then being celebrated for their intelligence.

Hmmm...  I wonder how many Good Place or Bad Place points throwing menstrual rags at a bothersome dude is?

[appositival]

I thought the obvious solution was Chainsaw-Bear-Mondays. There's nothing like the threat of a little evisceration to sharpen your wits and make you appreciate your first milkshake on Tuesday.

But seriously, read "Captain Stormfield's Visit to Heaven" for Mark Twain's take on the problem of an acceptable afterlife.

[Dowel Jones]

"Cosmic Coachella"  Heh.  Definitely needs to be in The Good Quotes.

Behind the Green Door, all your fantasies fullfilled.  Heh heh heh.

Maybe I missed it before, but I kind of liked their callback to a red convertible for Michael.  Shades of Sam Malone.

A binding contract?  Who enforces that if Michael is in charge of The Good Place?

28 minutes ago, Fukui San said:

Hmmm...  I wonder how many Good Place or Bad Place points throwing menstrual rags at a bothersome dude is?

Brent...paging Brent.  Brent to the neighborhood, please.

Regarding the nature of TGP, I would think that (plot requirements aside) admission there would trigger some force within the soul, etc., that would enable unlimited experience of ecstasy for  eternity.  That's kind of the basic concept of Christian theology, isn't it?  Not experiencing everything through the perceptions of the human mind that you just left behind.  Then again, Billy Graham once said that there would be golf in heaven.

 

[OutOfTheQuestion]

9 hours ago, BobH said:

This did kind of explain the Good Place Committee always being ready to give up and concede anything in the last few episodes. We never did get to see any Good Place architects in any meaningful way (just non-speaking roles in the end of the previous episode). I guess they were unaware of the problem. Maybe Michael was right back in season one about them just setting up the neighbourhoods and not interacting with the residents, so they've just been waiting 500+ years for new residents.

You could argue that the Good Place Committee were really the villains of the entire show.  At least Shawn and the demons were ultimately all willing to accept change, whereas the Good Placers let heaven rot on their watch.

[Smacky55]

I’m really glad this show is ending. I feel compelled to tune in every week just because I enjoyed the first two seasons so much and I feel I must see it through, but it’s torture for me. The jokes are not as smart, the characters have become caricatures of themselves and I’m bored of the whole Eleanor-Chidi star crossed lovers storyline. 

Watching this season actually feels like I’m in Season 1 Good Place. Everyone is trying to convince me that it’s great but it’s really a pit of hell. 

[clack]

Heaven and eternity are notoriously hard to envision, but even taking that in account that setting was thinly imagined -- lazy, uninspired, amateurish world building.

Of course the buildup of the mystery is more intriguing in these type of shows (Lost, anyone?) than the frequently disappointing conclusions. If this episode is any indication, I'm not hopeful for next week's finale.

[bros402]

16 hours ago, wingster55 said:

For me personally, with all the books, shows, movies there are I don’t know if I’d get bored that fast. 

I mean with Hypatia, she has been there since 415 CE - so 1,605 years. Now, someone might not get bored after that amount of time, so let's look at Phoenician guy - the Phoenician empire was founded around 2500 BCE and was conquered somewhere around 540 CE - so he has had anywhere from 2500 to 4500 years to get bored of everything. I think after that long, things might lose their appeal.

[Prower]

On 1/24/2020 at 4:31 AM, Aileen said:

I hated this so much. Like furiously hated it. There has to be more to this story than basically encouraging people to end their existence.

I don't think you guys are really considering how long eternity is. It literally is infinite. Imagine being around forever. Everybody is going to get bored of that eventually.

That's why in a lot of religions not existing is the ultimate goal and reincarnation is a form of punishment. Most western people don't seem to know what Nirvana actually means...

Or like a wise blue alien coming from a box with a big button on it once said: EXISTENCE IS PAIN!

[Dowel Jones]

Why is the episode entitled Patty?  I missed any reference to that.

[Ceindreadh]

28 minutes ago, Dowel Jones said:

Why is the episode entitled Patty?  I missed any reference to that.

Chidi asked Hypatia how to pronounce her name and she said to just call her Patty. 

[Corgi-ears]

So this show seems to be heading towards simply being a four-season prequel to Maya Rudolph's 2018 series, Forever.

Edited January 25, 2020 by Corgi-ears

[iMonrey]

Quote

So wait a second, the bureaucratically inept Good Place committee outright lied to Michael about the contract he was signing and left him completely in the lurch?

Yeah, this is supposed to be the Good Place and yet the people running it were just as corrupt as the people running the Bad Place. I keep expecting a twist where it turns out this isn't really the Good Place. I mean, tricking Michael into taking over so they could bail is something you'd expect the demons to do. Not the "good" people. 

[tennisgurl]

"We`ve created cosmic Coachella!"

So we finally arrive at the real Good Place (complete with flying puppy!) and...its actually pretty boring. It definitely calls back to the Twilight Zone episode A Nice Place To Visit, which was basically the first season of The Good Place wrapped up into about twenty five minutes. A petty crook dies and supposedly goes to heaven, where he can rob any bank without getting arrested, hot women fall all over him, dick with cops without consequences, but eventually gets bored with having everything handed to him, so bored that he asked to go to hell. Then, of course, the guy who welcomed him laughs and says that he IS in hell and this was the bad place all along! Its an interesting idea, one that has been explored before in fiction when it comes to immortality, that people need to be challenged or else they become stagnant, but I dont know if we have explored it as much in the afterlife. Of course I figured that The Good Place wouldn't be as great as we thought it would be (even if we do get to understand Twin Peaks!) considering how ineffectual the GP committee is and how broken the system at large is, so I figured that the gang would have to fix the GP as their next project. However, I didnt at all guess that it would be solved so quickly, or that the fix would be a cosmic suicide door! 

Alright thats really not what this probably is or what the point is, and the idea that the way to give the afterlife meaning is to give people the option to opt out after awhile is certainly interesting, and actually in line with several philosophical ideas about death being a peaceful end of existence, its not like this is out of nowhere or that the idea that meaning comes from mortality hasn't been touched on in the show. However, there are a few things in this that I am iffy on. First, not only does it seem to be rather rushed, especially compared to how they spent several episodes fixing the system and the Bad Place, the solution to be seems obvious, and its not just letting people choose to end their existence, its finding more challenges for people. Hypatia said that the problem was that she was bored and that everyone getting just what they want makes them placid and lacking the purpose or drive that they had in life, the things that made them worthy of the GP in the first place. It seems like the answer is giving them challenges, making it so that Janet wont give them everything they want, so that they have to work for their happiness again, or having them go back to Earth to help people, just give their lives meaning again by giving them something to do again, or explore new ideas, do something, anything! I guess you could say that living for thousands of years (or being dead) is just not something that people are meant to do and that people will inevitably get bored and become miserable, so giving people a way out is a good solution, but to me, it seems like they started out with a problem, started to move towards a solution, and then went in a totally different direction for the solution they actually went with. 

I just dont know, maybe I am just overdosed on a lot of stories where the main character chooses to die and its this wonderful heroic thing, that the whole idea that the ending of the afterlife is just choosing to walk into a door to nothing to end your existence just isnt really something super appealing to me. I guess I can support a multiple choice afterlife (live forever, or blink out of existence, whatever works for you!) but this solution just rubbed me the wrong way. Maybe because of some of my own personal issues, but the ending had a bit of a "its so hard to exist, just slip into nothing and it will all be better" kind of vibe. Of course, its probably me talking, but it just wasnt what I expected to see here. Or maybe its actually about accepting death as inevitable and not something to be feared, Discworld style, and that it makes life worth living, its always a hard line to walk. If next week ends with everyone walking to their end, it will such a sad ending for a show that has given me so much happiness.

Or maybe we should just wait until Beyonce gets to the GP and wait for her to solve everything!

That all being said, I have a lot of trust in Michael Schur and in this show that I think it has earned, so I am ready to see where it all goes, I have a lot of faith that this is all going to make sense and truly be fine at the end!

Edited January 25, 2020 by tennisgurl

[Lugal]

Having taken some time to let the episode sit, there are a few things that don't quite fit for me.  It did feel a little rushed.  The idea of just choosing to end existence seems like a cop-out when there so many other options.  And granted we don't know what really is on the other side of the door, even Michael didn't seem to know.

I guess for me it comes down to if you're getting bored in paradise, it's not really paradise.

7 hours ago, Prower said:

That's why in a lot of religions not existing is the ultimate goal and reincarnation is a form of punishment. Most western people don't seem to know what Nirvana actually means...

Nirvana means "a state of neither being nor not-being" when a person has shed the limits of earthly existence and their consciousness has expanded to include all other conscious beings, a oneness with God/Creator/the universe/whatever you want to call it.  I suppose you could look at that as a form of non-existence, but I see it as another form of existence.

15 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

That all being said, I have a lot of trust in Michael Schur and in this show that I think it has earned, so I am ready to see where it all goes, I have a lot of faith that this is all going to make sense and truly be fine at the end!

I'm on the same page with that.

[Dowel Jones]

8 hours ago, Ceindreadh said:

Chidi asked Hypatia how to pronounce her name and she said to just call her Patty. 

Thanks.  Sometimes I'm busy looking for all the little inside jokes and sight gags that the obvious just flies right by me.

[FormerMod-a1]

I thought fixing the good place came too easily, too.  I guess we'll see.

[Affogato]

On 1/23/2020 at 10:31 PM, Aileen said:

I hated this so much. Like furiously hated it. There has to be more to this story than basically encouraging people to end their existence.

People are unhappy when they don’t have agency in their lives. Giving them a choice means if they are here they choose to be here. It isn’t encouraging them to end their existence. It is giving them some control. 

Edited January 25, 2020 by Affogato
Typos

[Affogato]

On 1/24/2020 at 12:14 PM, DoubleUTeeEff said:

 

I wonder if the door doesn't actually lead to nothingness but rather leads back to Earth. A Reincarnation Door.

She was so so funny! "I have math on my shirt! Is that an S or a math?"

I

I’m wondering if at the end the last scene will be a reborn 6 year old Eleanor and Chidi meeting in kindergarten. 
 

yeah the Bearimey is confusing. i think we have to go with that. 

[SomeTameGazelle]

32 minutes ago, aquarian1 said:

I thought fixing the good place came too easily, too.  I guess we'll see.

I have a hard time believing that the good place is completely fixed, since no one really knows what is on the other side of the door and we know the finale is scheduled as a triple episode (unless any of that time is for extras rather than show). 

Adding the door was a tweak of the system that may or may not resolve all of the issues. I didn't mind that they got there quickly, but I have to say I thought the way Eleanor brought up the callback to Michael's midlife crisis felt clunky. 

I also thought the last line of the episode didn't come across clearly. Even on the podcast Mark Evan Jackson had to have it explained, and I know I had to replay it to catch that Chidi's "I'll miss you" was responding to Eleanor joking about using The Door. 

[companionenvy]

12 hours ago, Prower said:

I don't think you guys are really considering how long eternity is. It literally is infinite. Imagine being around forever. Everybody is going to get bored of that eventually.

That's why in a lot of religions not existing is the ultimate goal and reincarnation is a form of punishment. Most western people don't seem to know what Nirvana actually means...

Or like a wise blue alien coming from a box with a big button on it once said: EXISTENCE IS PAIN!

Eternity is something we aren't really capable of fully grasping, as humans. Whether that means an eternity of bliss or an eternity of non-existing, we can't really wrap our minds around it.

Which is why, despite my own feelings about death, I could buy the idea that people need at least a possibility of an end. Because whatever I feel now, I can't conceive of what it might be to be 500, or 5000, or 5 million years old, and maybe there is a point where - even in a theoretically "perfect" world -- I'd have had enough. For the show to go there is valid.

But even if that was going to be the ultimate answer, it shouldn't be the immediate answer. For one thing, in a lot of literary or mythological scenarios in which immortality is depicted as a curse, it is because the person doesn't also get things like eternal youth, health, etc. This doesn't apply in TGP, and as a couple of others have pointed out, it particularly doesn't apply in a world in which a bunch of infinitely or near-infinitely powerful beings should, in theory, be able to satisfy the need for things like purpose. Yes, to use a silly example, maybe even small pleasures like eating chocolate get boring eventually - but these super-powered beings should be able to be continually creating new experiences, flavors, etc. Maybe at some point that still becomes inadequate, but it should take a really, really long time. There are countless people in the real world who live close to 100 years of pretty simple lives and don't get bored by the end of it. You're telling me that there's not enough in the world of TGP to keep people busy for at least several thousand years? The newest GP residents have only been around for 500 years - obviously a much longer span than that of regular human life, but not immeasurably so.

Then, of course, there's the problem of Michael, who is something like the age of the universe, and has only very recently found renewed purpose and meaning - and I think it is a simplification to suggest that that's solely a matter of being in fear for his life for the first time ever.

But in any case, there's no reason literally your first idea for fixing the good place would be "let's put death back on the table." There's no reason not to at least consider other solutions, from relatively small things like being given responsibility to improve the lot of others (on Earth, or in the revamped Bad Place) to massive things like reincarnation into a new mortal life. To spend five minutes on coming up with such a drastic solution is trivializing -- even if a much more extended process might have ultimately ended in the same answer being the right one.

[Babalu]

Moved to Speculation thread.

 

Edited January 25, 2020 by Babalu

[ichbin]

FYI, if you want to visit The Good Place, go the the Getty Museum in Los Angeles.

[Guest]

59 minutes ago, SomeTameGazelle said:

I have a hard time believing that the good place is completely fixed, since no one really knows what is on the other side of the door and we know the finale is scheduled as a triple episode (unless any of that time is for extras rather than show). 

It’s a double-ish episode with a post-show hosted by Seth Meyers. 

[SomeTameGazelle]

1 hour ago, companionenvy said:

There are countless people in the real world who live close to 100 years of pretty simple lives and don't get bored by the end of it.

What Patty was describing was beyond boredom. She still had the capacity to enjoy the milkshakes but her intellect had decayed. 

Was there anything they showed us in the good place that wasn't purely personally tailored hedonism?

[Guest]

2 hours ago, companionenvy said:

But even if that was going to be the ultimate answer, it shouldn't be the immediate answer. For one thing, in a lot of literary or mythological scenarios in which immortality is depicted as a curse, it is because the person doesn't also get things like eternal youth, health, etc. This doesn't apply in TGP, and as a couple of others have pointed out, it particularly doesn't apply in a world in which a bunch of infinitely or near-infinitely powerful beings should, in theory, be able to satisfy the need for things like purpose. Yes, to use a silly example, maybe even small pleasures like eating chocolate get boring eventually - but these super-powered beings should be able to be continually creating new experiences, flavors, etc. Maybe at some point that still becomes inadequate, but it should take a really, really long time. There are countless people in the real world who live close to 100 years of pretty simple lives and don't get bored by the end of it. You're telling me that there's not enough in the world of TGP to keep people busy for at least several thousand years? The newest GP residents have only been around for 500 years - obviously a much longer span than that of regular human life, but not immeasurably so.

In many ways there is logic to starting with the ultimate answer in this situation. They walked into an extreme situation that needed to be addressed immediately. The majority of the good place resident have been there long enough that they needed an extreme solution. There’s no reason to believe Michael won’t come up with other tweaks as more new people arrive. 

[companionenvy]

4 hours ago, SomeTameGazelle said:

What Patty was describing was beyond boredom. She still had the capacity to enjoy the milkshakes but her intellect had decayed. 

Was there anything they showed us in the good place that wasn't purely personally tailored hedonism?

That's precisely the problem, at least in part. Given the powers we've seen Janet exhibit, there's no reason the GP architects couldn't have at least attempted to provide some more substantial pleasures. For instance, give Hypatia a chance to read Newton and Einstein and start working on problems that weren't yet conceived of during her lifetime. That might very well wear thin too - but it is a fault of the episode that this wasn't addressed. Even if the committee was too inhuman to thinkof it, our guys should have.

[Zuleikha]

My problem with the episode is the Jeremy Bearimy. We know time works differently, and it makes sense that time would work differently. But yet we're shown what appears to be people perceiving and interacting with time the same as on earth.

And then there's the Shellstrop factor where she described the Hell of Heaven but acknowledge that it sounded like her actual Heaven. Why is a perpetually blissed out existence in eternity actually a problem? Sure, from our POV it looks crappy. But the people in the Good Place were done. What's actually wrong with it when you have no responsibilities? 

I also have the problem some other people have raised of the Good Place citizens just accepting all of humanity being horribly tortured in the Bad Place. Maybe by the time new people stopped entering the Good Place, everyone was too blissed out to care, but I can't buy they wouldn't have cared earlier. I'm just a pretty normal person in terms of kindness and compassion, and I'm pretty sure I couldn't be happy in an afterlife knowing that many, many other people were being horribly tortured with no chance of an escape. 

[The Companion]

When you think about it on a small scale, people struggle with life changes for this reason. Facing a big monolithic block is hard for us. We have to take it day by day. 

Think about any vice. Smoking cessation or alcohol or a diagnosis or dieting. You have to break it down into mangable chunks. 

I actually completely got how hard eternity would be.

On 1/24/2020 at 11:23 AM, ItCouldBeWorse said:

 

There should be at least a dozen children for every adult in The Good Place.  How many children, especially in the distant past, could have earned negative points?  Especially infants and toddlers.

THEY BECOME FLYING PUPPIES AND PLAY IN THE SKY AND NEVER GET BORED. 

This topic is closed to further discussion. LALALALALALALA

[Prower]

12 hours ago, companionenvy said:

But even if that was going to be the ultimate answer, it shouldn't be the immediate answer.

I disagree. Giving people a choice should be the immediate answer. Nothing is more important.

We didn't see anybody actually use the door and Patty specifically said she'd stick around for a while. But everybody got a lot happier instantly, because now they had a choice.

 

12 hours ago, companionenvy said:

The newest GP residents have only been around for 500 years - obviously a much longer span than that of regular human life, but not immeasurably so.

That is incorrect. Time in the afterlife doesn't move linarly. It moves "Jeremy Bearimy". The crew lived through thousands of versions of Micheals torture good place, for tens of thousands of years, yet when they went back to earth, no time had passed there (or it had come back around).

There is no telling how many years the good place inabitants have been there. Might be millions of years.

Edited January 26, 2020 by Prower

[companionenvy]

5 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

I also have the problem some other people have raised of the Good Place citizens just accepting all of humanity being horribly tortured in the Bad Place. 

This actually makes a reasonable amount of sense to me. First of all, we're not sure that the people in TGP actually know what was going on to everyone in TBP. It was important for Eleanor et al to find out as part of the torture, but maybe in the actual GP, any residents troubled by the idea of damnation weren't told the truth. But even if they did know - many if not most of these people came from periods in which they would have believed that a good percentage of humanity was going to be damned to hell. Assuming part of the "perfection" of the place involved comforting lies about the eternal fate of particular loved ones, I can accept that a lot of the residents would have been OK with the idea of eternal punishment as an abstract concept.

 

41 minutes ago, Prower said:

I disagree. Giving people a choice should be the immediate answer. Nothing is more important.

We didn't see anybody actually use the door and Patty specifically said she'd stick around for a while. But everybody got a lot happier instantly, because now they had a choice.

Well maybe nothing is more important, but that doesn't mean it is either sensible or dramatically satisfying for this particular group of people to come to the conclusion that the inability to end your existence if so desired was the essential problem with the good place so rapidly, especially given that there were other problems that should have been more obvious to people with the experiences of this four - i.e, the lack of authentic connections and a sense of purpose. We're talking about one of the biggest philosophical issues of all time. I think it deserves more consideration than it got.

 

47 minutes ago, Prower said:

That is incorrect. Time in the afterlife doesn't move linarly. It moves "Jeremy Bearimy". The crew lived through thousands of versions of Micheals torture good place, for tens of thousands of years, yet when they went back to earth, no time had passed there (or it had come back around).

There is no telling how many years the good place inabitants have been there. Might be millions of years.

It doesn't have to correspond to time on Earth, but I'm not sure there's any basis for assuming they've experienced more time, from their perspective, than we would have expected them to. The accountant didn't tell Michael "No one has gotten into TGP since the dot on the I of the Bearimy." He said no one had gotten in 500 years. So there's some reason to believe that in relative terms, they're experiencing time on that scale as well.