S06.E09: Crisis On Infinite Earths Part Three

[Primal Slayer]

So this is really beginning to be a let down of an event. Thus far the writers have taken a story that is SO BIG and SO INCLUSIVE and dwindled it down to practically nothing. Sure it is exciting to see these brief cameos but that's all they are...they dont add to the story, they don't interact with anyone else....this is E1/38 and friends. 

I know they dont have big money but there is plenty they can do to make this into something better than what it is turning out to be. They have like 20 actors under contract that they could've made into doppelgangers and play a role in this but instead they ignore that. 

We have 7 Paragons...of those 7, 4 are of E1, 2 are of E38, and 1 is....well now he is E38 since Lex swapped out with Superman. They are the key to save the entire multiverse, we saw more doppelgangers during S2 of The Flash. Why not bring The Huntress in to fight along with the team? They have the actress who played Dinah! They didnt even use her! 

This isn't Crisis on Infinite Earths, this is Crisis on Earth 1.

Edited December 11, 2019 by Primal Slayer

[Lantern7]

I think fandom now has the bluest of balls right about now. I can respect the break . . . but I don't have to be patient about it.

Looks like the Arrowvese crew has been reading back issues of Day of Judgement, with Oliver Queen taking Hal Jordan's place as a replacement for The Spectre. Has Spectre or Jim Corrigan popped up anywhere before? Because non-geeks were probably stumped. "My name is Jim Corrigan. I was an officer, and then I served a . . . . higher power. And now you have to replace me." "Okay." "Great. By the way, the story needs a break so the writers can find money for Spirit of Vengeance SFX for you to wield in Part Four." "Wait, I thought Ghost Rider was th-" "DO NOT GET ME STARTED WITH THAT ASSHOLE."

Jefferson gets pulled in for power purposes and gravitas. Did his Earth even get a designation? "Earth-Constantly Hopeless," maybe? Of course he would have wanted Monitor to take his family over him . . . but in Monitor's eyes, Anissa's powers weren't needed, Jennifer's were too unstable, and Lynne had been spending too much time with making Greenlight . . . or, as an alternative, "Breaking Bad: The Home Lab!" I don't know if we'll get one Earth in the end, but Jefferson probably needs the company. It's not like Flash or the Legends could fix Freeland in one episode. The guy has just been alone for a long time, in the sense that he never had contemporaries. Barry is an obvious choice. Another: Curtis Holt. I think they both won gold medals in the decathlon on their respective Earths. "Look, your heart's in a good place . . . but do you see me with an 'L' on my face?"

Another mega-story I thought of: Blackest Night. Short story was that the dead were coming back to life by way of Blank Lantern rings, and familiar characters were given rings based off the Emotional Spectrum. In that story, Barry Allen got the Blue Lantern ring, embodying hope. I'm thinking there was a lot of weighing going on before Supergirl got "hope." "Love" . . . yeah, that's out there. Writers reaching like an impatient Ralph Dibny getting a Gingold from the other side of the bar. Lex literally writing his way to Paragon status fits; in Blackest Night, he got the Orange Ring of Avarice. It's tough seeing Superman-96 disposed so easily, especially since Routh gave his all . . . but this is a Lex Luthor I can live with. More driven and evil than the Rossenbaum version, more believable than Eisenberg.

Also in Blackest Night, Ray Palmer got the Indigo Ring of Compassion. Since Routh was already pulling double duty, Paragon Status went to Ryan Choi. In the comics, he was the guy that picked up Ray's White Dwarf Star-fueled belt and carved his own niche as the Atom. The All-New Atom was mostly written by Gail Simone . . . so having his daughter named "Simone" was awesome, even if my "ship" would be Ryan and Giganta. Seriously . . . track down Gail's stories, or the Justice League of America comics written by Steve Orlando, who had a great grasp of the character, and incorporated the LoT look.

Nash Wells is the worst Wells. I mean, Sherloque never fucked up as badly. Or HR. Or any of the other one-note one-shot Wellses. He deserves the canon "only in the Eighties" hair.

Nice moment with John Wesley Shipp . . . even if Jay Garrick is still around in some capacity. The flashback was jarring because I hadn't seen the one-season series in so long. JWS was so young! My biggest complaint about his death is that it didn't resemble the canon version . . . and that sucks because The Flash actually wasted that on one-shot character Trajectory.

Lots to speculate on for the next month. I have faith that COIE will stick the landing, though.

ETA: Did we need a reminder of Birds of Prey? Really? Fuck, why not go with The Shazam/Isis Hour? Except for Barbara Gordon and Dr. Quinzel, that series was a dud.

Edited December 11, 2019 by Lantern7

[GHScorpiosRule]

5 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

. but this is a Lex Luthor I can live with. More driven and evil than the Rossenbaum version,

I absolutely disagree with that. Rosenbaum’s Lex, once he turned to the evil side, went ALL IN. I still remember how he murdered Lionel. 
 

[phoenics]

I was thinking about this before, but ... why didn't Barry just create a time remnant and use THAT to die in his place?  He already did it when taking out Zoom's multiverse canon in S2 of The Flash.

Like - he did the SAME thing OG Barry just did... he just used a time remnant.

When I saw the cannon (which I had been wondering if it was gonna show up), my first thought was that Barry could just use a time remnant.

FFS, show.  Was Eric Wallace not on The Flash in S2?  Were NONE of those writers left?

[Lantern7]

10 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I absolutely disagree with that. Rosenbaum’s Lex, once he turned to the evil side, went ALL IN. I still remember how he murdered Lionel. 
 

Yeah, but that was Lionel. Lex could have done that based off hair envy alone, and I wouldn't have blamed him. If anything, that Lex is more like Lena . . . someone with grey morality slowly pulled to the darkness.

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 minute ago, Lantern7 said:

Yeah, but that was Lionel. Lex could have done that based off hair envy alone, and I wouldn't have blamed him. If anything, that Lex is more like Lena . . . someone with grey morality slowly pulled to the darkness.

We’ll just have to agree to disagree on that. 

[nickp1991]

I have to say Jon Cryer is killing it as Lex in this crossover 

[Diapason Untuned]

43 minutes ago, phoenics said:

I was thinking about this before, but ... why didn't Barry just create a time remnant and use THAT to die in his place?  He already did it when taking out Zoom's multiverse canon in S2 of The Flash.

Like - he did the SAME thing OG Barry just did... he just used a time remnant.

When I saw the cannon (which I had been wondering if it was gonna show up), my first thought was that Barry could just use a time remnant.

FFS, show.  Was Eric Wallace not on The Flash in S2?  Were NONE of those writers left?

After what happened with Savitar, Barry has probably sworn off time remnants. More trouble than they're worth.

I was surprised by how much Barry and Jefferson worked together. I thought the same thing about Barry, Oliver and Kara last year as well, the leads just seem to really do well when put with each other.

I won't lie, I literally burst out laughing when Lex nonchanlantly rewrote himself in BR Superman's place. Seriously, the guy is totally shameless to the point where it's almost admirable.

After they killed off everyone like that, I get the feeling that despite the changes to the multiverse sure to arise from this, the events themselves will probably go unremembered, which is sort of a shame.

Edited December 11, 2019 by Diapason Untuned

[ParadoxLost]

1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

What they did instead was suck out the tension. Ok, so he's going to become the new Spectre and a new God of some sort. Sure, we don't know exactly who or what Spectre is, but they really gave zero tension. Mia and Diggle just show back up on the Waverider and say that Oliver chose not to come back without mentioning the Mystery Spectre Man showing up to offer Oliver a better deal?

Also, with how they destroyed all the Earths, they have made it clear that they can likely just poof all the Earths back. With how this Crisis has gone, I'd be surprised if they actually kept some stakes by only poofing some of the Earths back. But now I'm worried that they'll just reset all Earths and everyone goes back to how things were before Crisis. Which...would be a shitty aftermath to Crisis if barely anything changed, besides Oliver becoming Spectre.

Even if they just have someone use the Book of Destiny to bring back some of the Earths, it'll be all of the main Arrowverse Earths.

I agree.  This biggest problem is that they wiped out too many characters and worlds from existence.  It has to be undone because there is a TV network to run.  

I wish they had focused less on assembling paragons and more on saving worlds.   Have part of what Oliver did leading up to this be assembling a deus ex machina for the Monitor.  Then save, Earth 1,Earth 38 (safeguard - not evacuate) and then deploy teams to a bunch of other Earths.  Have some succeed and some fail and some heroes join up with their Earth protected and others with their Earth gone.  But make sure all the Earths that are the home to TV series plus a few others still exist.  Because that means their are still stakes and something permanent could happen.  

Because once Black Lightning's Earth was gone, that negated anything being permanently disappeared by the antimatter wave.  And if that isn't permanent, then deaths and everything else are also in doubt.

I wonder if they just decided not to bother keeping the tension up because between Flash and the Legends, the ability to time travel gave an out to any scenario that they didn't think it was worth the bother to maintain a pretense.

[mommalib]

2 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

Oh.. Naw.. No barely bout it.. I saw that nod... I was giddy... I've done that nod.. To the other black guy in a room before.. Hell we all have... 

Yup the black man head nod. It's an acknowledgement, I see you bruh.

[phoenics]

34 minutes ago, mommalib said:

Yup the black man head nod. It's an acknowledgement, I see you bruh.

I remember fleetingly hoping that we'd get some kind of solidarity acknowledgment from BL to Iris or vice versa when he saw her, something... anything... but then I remembered the writers try hard to ignore that The Wests are actually black unless they are sidelining Iris or draping her in racist tropes like the SBW with zero PoV.

I guess that "head nod" is only for the brothas, even though I  - as a BW - have been doing that nod my whole damn life when I see other black people in very white settings.

[nuraman00]

I liked the flashback to the 1990s series of The Flash.

Having Jonn Jonzz was a waste, he didn't do anything.

Not much happened with the plot overall in this episode either.

[angora]

Okay, so I get that all shows have actors missing here (miss you, Mary Hamilton!), and it would be madness to try and cram everybody into every episode, but Supergirl is my jam, so I feel their absences the most. This episode, I wanted to shout, "J'onn is a Paragon and he only has like a minute of screentime?!", and when Ray was all happy when Cisco showed up because he needed help with the Paragon Detector, I thought, "Gee, a Twelfth Level Intellect sure might come in handy right now!" And come on, I know Alex is happily in a relationship, but she can't even meet Kate Kane?

Lucifer was a complete surprise for me, and even though I haven't watched his show, the cameo still made me happy. I also liked Diggle going all in to bring back Oliver (you did everything you could, man.)

Ryan Choi was great - loved everything about that. Geeking out over Ray, being all, "World ending? Yeah, going home to my family, thnx," and of course, that beautiful scene with Iris. LOVE. Glad to have you, Ryan! Plus, it made me laugh when his face showed up on the Paragon detector and everyone was like, "Who's this guy?", because god forbid a single Paragon wasn't one of them/a doppelganger of two of them.

Even with the aborted Big Flash Sacrifice, this episode felt surprisingly light on Barry, as pretty much the whole crossover has so far. Like many have said, what a lot of nothing after a whole lot of buildup.

That said, I did really like Barry's scenes with Jefferson. They were great together. Please, PLEASE tell me Jefferson will at some point find out that Barry grew up in a Black family and no one ever comments on it. I NEED Jefferson's reaction to that.

Still loving Kara and Kate together. I liked that they were prepared to fight over the Book of Destiny stuff but it didn't actually come to that.

Okay, as much as I enjoy Jon Cryer's Magnificent Bastard Lex (and this was so something he would do,) if that was the last we saw of Brandon Routh's Superman, I'm gonna be pissed.

[Cthulhudrew]

This episode was better than part 2, IMO, but still way too threadbare in the plot. Moments that should be powerful dramatic scenes undercut by too little development (or in some cases, characters other than the main characters of the shows taking the spotlight).

I didn't like Lucifer (far too different from the incredible comic series for my tastes), but I did enjoy the cameo. It was definitely unexpected (at least, I hadn't heard about it, whereas I'd heard about most of the others that have shown up so far).

Also- does this mean that Oliver has become the Spectre?

Edited December 11, 2019 by Cthulhudrew

[mommalib]

1 hour ago, phoenics said:

I remember fleetingly hoping that we'd get some kind of solidarity acknowledgment from BL to Iris or vice versa when he saw her, something... anything... but then I remembered the writers try hard to ignore that The Wests are actually black unless they are sidelining Iris or draping her in racist tropes like the SBW with zero PoV.

I guess that "head nod" is only for the brothas, even though I  - as a BW - have been doing that nod my whole damn life when I see other black people in very white settings.

Sistas do it too but in my experience it's more specific to brothas.

[Cthulhudrew]

On the topic of cameos, I'd totally forgotten they introduced Corrigan on Constantine. (I miss that show.)

[Chyromaniac]

15 minutes ago, Cthulhudrew said:

On the topic of cameos, I'd totally forgotten they introduced Corrigan on Constantine. (I miss that show.)

And both times played by a Lobo no less.

[Jediknight]

Jefferson shows up in another Earth, without his family, and it doesn't take long for him to become a leader, and show his fatherly instincts.  There's a reason that the students of Garfield were ready to go to war for him when he was arrested.  And of course he repeats the mantra he delivers to students.  I don't want Jefferson and Barry to wind up on different Earths.

Same with Kate and Kara, keep them on the same Earth.  Ruby Rose has more chemistry with Melissa Benoist, than anybody on Batwoman.  Of course, like I said in the previous part, it's hard to find anybody that can't have chemistry with Benoist.

And yep, Kara has Kate as a backup plan in case she goes evil.  They truly are the Beeboverse's World's Finest.

[thuganomics85]

Oh, damn!  A cameo from the short-lived Birds of Prey show over fifteen years ago?!  They really are digging in deep here!  Brought back memories, even if they weren't exactly great ones, but I like to believe that all of those earlier failures helped eventually pave the way to where we are now.  Either way, it was fun seeing Ashley Scott's Huntress again.  And hearing Oracle's voice, even though I couldn't tell if that was Dina Meyer or not.  Too bad they couldn't bring that version of Dinah Lance here, so we can have Kate all "Hey, you look a lot like my crazy sister...."

Gold star to whoever it was that decided to save Tom Ellis' name until after the credits.  I heard rumors Lucifer was going to show up here, but it made the reveal very surprising and fun!  Of course, he has some kind of history with Constantine!  Hey, maybe he can show up on Lucifer's final season!

So, after Ray and Cisco do what they do best, we figure out that the Seven Paragons are officially Kate, Kara, Sara, Brandon Routh's Clark, J'onn, Barry, and.... Ryan Choi!  Yep, a new face is here, but he's clearly being set up for a bigger part in this universe.  The actor playing him did a good job, I thought.

Also Jefferson a.k.a. Black Lightning has arrived, although he was actually brought here by Nash/Pariah instead.  Was surprised over how much I enjoyed his scene with Barry.  On the surface, they wouldn't seem like a duo that have a lot in common, but it actually made a lot of sense, and felt real.  Certainly helps that both Cress Williams and Grant Gustin are some of the stronger members in the cast.

Speaking of duos, Kara and Kate continue to be the best.  While I think she's been steadily improving on her own show, Ruby Rose really seems to be at her best opposite of Melissa Benoist here.

Not surprised that there was swerve over "The Flash" dying, and it ended up being the Barry from Earth 90 instead of "our" Barry.  Still, it was a nice potential swan song for John Wesley Shipp time in the universe (although I'm sure they could easily find more ways to bring him back), and I liked them using footage from the old 90s show at the very end.

Cisco and I are generally on the same wavelength most of the time, but that was amplified with his disgust over the Anti-Monitor moniker.  Yeah, no one tries to be creative anymore, Cisco!  I feel you, buddy!

I could have sworn that I read somewhere that Stephen Lobo was playing the Anti-Monitor, but he's Jim Corrigan instead?  Interesting.  I'm guessing his purpose is to help establish a reason for Oliver not to leave Purgatory, so he'll be able to come back and help at the end.

Instead, it looks like the Anti-Monitor has basically taken over Lyla instead, and wins for now.  The Monitor is dead, the Earths are destroyed, and everything's gone.  Well, except Pariah was able to whisk away the seven Paragons to a safe place, so not all hope is lost.  But twist!  Clark suddenly vanish and a new Paragon has arrived in the form of... Lex Freaking Luthor!  Because, of course, he changed the names around in the book.  Classic Lex!

Curious to see how everything will play out after the break.  I've been enjoying it (more than Elseworlds at least), but I can understand some of the frustrations.  Having so many characters here means that the story is kind of speeding along and not everything is being fully developed, which is leading to some missed opportunities for me.  I would have liked to have seen more of Diggle dealing with Oliver's death and Lyla's disappearance.  Or Ralph being giddy over getting to meet all the other heroes.  Or Jefferson really acclimating in his new surroundings.  And because there isn't enough time, other characters get pushed to the side suddenly, like Mick disappearing (was he babysitting Jonathan?), and J'onn and Sara barely doing anything here, despite being two of the Paragons.  I guess there are limits to what can be done, but I just wish there was more time to really do everyone justice. 

[BaggythePanther]

Kara is ok with Kate having Kryptonite? Let’s hope Lena doesn’t find out. Kate and Kara continue to be a great pair. Though I found it amusing that Kara would wander off and Kate was constantly playing catch-up to keep Kara from doing something stupid.

Six seasons of build up and in the end Earth-90 Flash takes his place. We all know Barry wouldn’t be gone permanently, but I’d hoped he would disappear to fulfill the prophecy and that would be undone. I enjoyed the WestAllen and Team Flash goodbye scenes. It seems the writers do know that Barry should have moments alone with his wife, but don’t care to write it.

I liked the scenes with Jefferson and Barry. I’d forgotten that both their fathers were killed by their mortal enemy. Much better (worse?) connection than a mother with the same name. I also appreciated the nod between Jefferson and Diggle, I’m curious who’s idea it was to put that in. And I loved Jefferson’s reaction to the Supermen, though I was more looking forward to him meeting Supergirl, since that’s who has been mentioned on Black Lightning before.

I just saw a picture of comic book Spectre and evidently he wears a green hood. So in hindsight this twist feels obvious. 

Overall I’m enjoying the crossover, but like others I hope we scale down moving forward. I know it’d be a logistical nightmare but I’d like to see Flash and BL crossover at some point. And of course a World’s Finest crossover.

[Trini]

Birds of Prey cameo was cool; wished we had seen the others too, though.

This is something that shouldn't be noticeable, but I did; there seemed to be a lot of scenes that were clipped. Like there was obviously more dialog but it got edited down.

LOL at Cisco hating the name Anti-Monitor! And of course he conveniently gets his powers back for Crisis. Of course. Glad Team Flash finally knows about Earth-2.

Aw! Barry's the Paragon of Love❤️! Nice. Reminds me of the Flash's 'Love is power' trailer CW put out. Maybe they were telling us this whole time!

Considering that J'onn is a Paragon, I'm disappointed that we haven't seen him be as active and involved as some others.

Ryan Choi is a cutie. Can we keep him? Have him crossover to several shows? Nice moment with Iris using her superpowers.

Really sweet WestAllen scene. Although, they used a more emotional take in the promos - why'd they change it? Liked how they paralleled both Barrys thinking of their wives as they're going to die.

It's a good idea to flesh out the Monitor, but I'm not so interested in his backstory.

John Wesley Shipp /Earth-90 Flash was awesome! Loved that they closed out his story/series; and they mentioned and showed Tina McGee! 😭 Liked the little Flashtime moment with both Flashes. All that being said, I was actually looking forward to Earth-1 Barry dying. Switching the Flashes was predictable and kind of a cop out to me.

So SuperBat really is the new Oliver/Barry! They're the only relationship that's gotten fairly steady focus from the start. Ruby Rose is way better here with Melissa than most people on her own show.

Welcome to the multiverse Jefferson! Liked that they had him connect with Barry. (They both have Black families; please let that come up in a future crossover.) Wish J'onn had been part of this plot.

Superman being replaced by Lex - now that's a plot twist! My first thought is that Kara and Kate are going to have so much fun punching him.

Skipped Diggle/Mia/Constantine. But I gather that we had another DCTV cameo and Oliver's soul accepts a really random job offer? Man, he really didn't want to be saved.

Edited December 11, 2019 by Trini

[Trini]

6 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

Jefferson gets pulled in for power purposes and gravitas. Did his Earth even get a designation? "Earth-Constantly Hopeless," maybe?

Yeah, this was disappointing. I want to know the number!

6 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

... The All-New Atom was mostly written by Gail Simone . . . so having his daughter named "Simone" was awesome, ...

Nice! I didn't even pick up on this; thanks for pointing it out.

[PWHCHCH]

How can all universes be destroyed when there is an infinite number? Or is there actually a set number and not infinite at all.

Also I would have loved a original series Charmed cameo. 

[UNOSEZ]

6 hours ago, phoenics said:

I remember fleetingly hoping that we'd get some kind of solidarity acknowledgment from BL to Iris or vice versa when he saw her, something... anything... but then I remembered the writers try hard to ignore that The Wests are actually black unless they are sidelining Iris or draping her in racist tropes like the SBW with zero PoV.

I guess that "head nod" is only for the brothas, even though I  - as a BW - have been doing that nod my whole damn life when I see other black people in very white settings.

Don't worry we see you too *Nods*

That's why before this episode I was hoping Jennifer was along for the ride... She didn't vanish like the other Jens she kinda just dematerialized and it seems the antimatter wave was futzing her powers.. And I said earlier on the BL and episode two threads.. That these ppl need her reactions.. Forever perky Kara.. Consistently ignored Iris... Mountain on shoulder Mia... She woulda got on great with Sara.. And checked those three with some much needed truth... Tho kate did a good job with Kara... Maybe she'll pop up in a month... Who knows

[UNOSEZ]

5 hours ago, angora said:

That said, I did really like Barry's scenes with Jefferson. They were great together. Please, PLEASE tell me Jefferson will at some point find out that Barry grew up in a Black family and no one ever comments on it. I NEED Jefferson's reaction to that.

If nothing else happens but this does... I think I can walk away happy... 6 years and no one has ever mentioned it.. Yet another reason we needed Jennifer Pierce around here. 

[Starry]

This was underwhelming. Barry and Kara should have died. Instead they gave that plot to Oliver and had Earth-90 Flash vanish in Barry's place and Brandon's Superman die in Kara's arms to recreate that comic cover.

It was what we predicted and I was still disappointed.

Team Flash is always cringy during crossovers. At least Cisco got his Vibe powers back and was instrumental in opening the Antimonitor's cave. He also got a good team leader moment and was forced to make a painful choice when the world was about to end. Ralph did nothing but prove Ryan Ray wasn't lying about them being superheroes and all Frost did was get knocked out, make unfunny jokes and turn back into Caitlin so Barry could hug her goodbye and give her undeserved credit for his hero journey.

Barry being the Paragon of Love is fitting. He's guided by love. For better or worse. His love for Iris powers him up. I think that the WestAllen moments were good and I always love their chemistry but I agree that the promo had a more emotional take and that their scenes were a bit rushed and all compressed into one episode. This show has editing and direction issues which were for me apparent during the final group scene as well. It was shot choppily and I didn't feel it. I had the same problem during some of the Supergirl scenes and especially during the Oliver's death scene. Batwoman was better but I don't know if it was because there was less action and the episode moved at a slower pace.

I loved Iris with Ryan and Barry giving her credit for her intelligence and compassion. But I really don't understand how we went from "I am going to die for sure" to "No matter how long it takes I promise you I'll run back to you". Except the other Flash is dead dead which is something that Barry acknowledged in his reunion scene with Iris. Was he just trying to make her feel better by lying about coming back to her? I am going to go with "the writers are so sloppy that they forget what happens from one scene to the next". But I loved that Iris was always in Barry's thoughts and was his priority and the one he always mentioned even when she wasn't with him.

Lucifer cracked me up. That was a good cameo.

I think Mia should have been the one to convince Oliver to leave Purgatory, not Diggle. Maybe they felt Oliver and Diggle deserved a good moment too? I don't know what the deal is with Oliver but it looks like he was made to be the ultimate protector of the universe, above the Paragons so hopefully those who think he should be elevated above everyone else can be happy about that.

I still don't get why Lois has better and more emotional scenes with Brandon's Superman than her own damn husband. I am surprised at how much Tyler's Clark has been underused during this crossover. Lois is faring better than him.

I am really feeling for Sara. First Mia was cold and snotty towards her now Diggle is yelling at her for what they did to Oliver. Poor Sara is getting all the blame.

I liked Jefferson and Barry but the poor guy just lost his entire universe, his family included, and is then made to suffer while using his powers to help a bunch of strangers. Barry gave him a good pep talk but the point is that his world is still gone. Barry still has hope and a wife and a family and friends and a world. Jefferson doesn't.

In the comics

Spoiler

the Monitor predicted Lyla's betrayal and knew she would eventually kill him. He had a plan all along and saved up energy to prevent some of the last Earths still standing from being absorbed into the antimatter universe. Maybe that's how they'll be able to save Earth-1, Jefferson's Earth and some others.

I always thought Tom Cavanagh isn't as versatile as others believe but his Pariah is terrible. Maybe part of it is the writing but he's botching the character and I hate it.

[Trisha]

2 hours ago, Trini said:

Skipped Diggle/Mia/Constantine. But I gather that we had another DCTV cameo and Oliver's soul accepts a really random job offer? Man, he really didn't want to be saved.

It was more like he accepted his fate. All season he’s been told he would die but his death would help stop the destruction of the universe, so he knew that his quick dip in the Lazarus Pit was way too easy and he still had another job to do.

[way2interested]

51 minutes ago, Trisha said:

It was more like he accepted his fate. All season he’s been told he would die but his death would help stop the destruction of the universe, so he knew that his quick dip in the Lazarus Pit was way too easy and he still had another job to do.

Yeah, my biggest issue was that the whole subplot was considered like an after thought and was edited so choppily. Like, clearly the parts with Oliver were all one scene, but they chopped it up into two for some reason, and then had the resolution (for Oliver's, Diggle's, and Mia's I guess "subplots") wrapped up so abruptly. Like, Diggle and Mia didn't get to save Oliver, but they are ok with that now I guess? Well, not "ok," but not enough time to get a read on what they were feeling about not getting him back, or if they even knew what was really going on.

Also, kind of random, but did Constantine, Mick, and Mia also "die" on the Waverider at the end too then? It was weird, since they weren't in the last scene on the Waverider. Like, Sara wasn't in that scene either, but then still got transported at the end anyway. I get that that was because she's a paragon and had to be with the other paragons, but what? I guess Constantine, Mick, and Mia were off having a drink break while they were waiting for Barry to hopefully come back?

[phoenics]

7 hours ago, mommalib said:

Sistas do it too but in my experience it's more specific to brothas.

In mine it's not, though?

[phoenics]

2 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

Don't worry we see you too *Nods*

That's why before this episode I was hoping Jennifer was along for the ride... She didn't vanish like the other Jens she kinda just dematerialized and it seems the antimatter wave was futzing her powers.. And I said earlier on the BL and episode two threads.. That these ppl need her reactions.. Forever perky Kara.. Consistently ignored Iris... Mountain on shoulder Mia... She woulda got on great with Sara.. And checked those three with some much needed truth... Tho kate did a good job with Kara... Maybe she'll pop up in a month... Who knows

Thank you so much for understanding where I was coming from and including me (BW) in this, instead of acting like this is only something brothas do.  I was hoping Jennifer would come along too...

I kinda have hope that Jennifer is now anti-matter so she exists in this new anti-matter universe?

So maybe she will show up - but it likely won't be where she could meet The Wests - because she's anti-matter and they're matter... but maybe there will be a way.

I agree about everything you've said about her reactions, lol.

[Delphi]

I'm feeling very 'meh' about this entire crossover.   And not because it's bad,  but because I don't feel like it was what I was promised.   I realize that budgets and schedules are a thing,  so you get a Titans/BoP cameo for about thirty seconds and fifteen minutes of crazy Bruce Wayne.   But I was told it was going to be infinite earth's together.   And I know the show's have leads and they need their story told,  but I'm not even getting good character moments out of it.

Then I'm being told how high the stakes are,  but unless you're Oliver their not.   Barry gets a loophole to save him and BoPs Oracle and Huntress are destroyed, call me petty but that's not their universe to destroy, that's rude af.

[Lantern7]

5 hours ago, Trini said:

LOL at Cisco hating the name Anti-Monitor!

Take it up with Marv Wolfman.

4 hours ago, Trini said:

Yeah, this was disappointing. I want to know the number [of Jefferson's Earth]!

Or letters. Like, "Earth-BOHICA." As in: "Bend Over, Here It Comes Again."

8 hours ago, angora said:

That said, I did really like Barry's scenes with Jefferson. They were great together. Please, PLEASE tell me Jefferson will at some point find out that Barry grew up in a Black family and no one ever comments on it. I NEED Jefferson's reaction to that.

I totally forgot about that.

36 minutes ago, phoenics said:

I kinda have hope that Jennifer is now anti-matter so she exists in this new anti-matter universe?

So maybe she will show up - but it likely won't be where she could meet The Wests - because she's anti-matter and they're matter... but maybe there will be a way.

From the last episode of Black Lightning, I could buy her tagging along with her dad without anyone realizing it. I don't think we'd get Qward, the antimatter universe with assholes having pinpoint pupils.

6 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Oh, damn!  A cameo from the short-lived Birds of Prey show over fifteen years ago?!  They really are digging in deep here!  Brought back memories, even if they weren't exactly great ones, but I like to believe that all of those earlier failures helped eventually pave the way to where we are now.  Either way, it was fun seeing Ashley Scott's Huntress again.  And hearing Oracle's voice, even though I couldn't tell if that was Dina Meyer or not.  Too bad they couldn't bring that version of Dinah Lance here, so we can have Kate all "Hey, you look a lot like my crazy sister...."

"Officially," that would be "first cousin, once removed." I didn't look that up because of them. No, I did that two weeks ago to figure out my relationship with my cousin's baby. And since Helena is the daughter of Batman . . .

Seriously, though, BoP was so bad. It is weird that we could've had a "Smallvilleverse" years ago if BoP had been better and/or if Mercy Reef had been picked up.

[phoenics]

39 minutes ago, Delphi said:

I'm feeling very 'meh' about this entire crossover.   And not because it's bad,  but because I don't feel like it was what I was promised.   I realize that budgets and schedules are a thing,  so you get a Titans/BoP cameo for about thirty seconds and fifteen minutes of crazy Bruce Wayne.   But I was told it was going to be infinite earth's together.   And I know the show's have leads and they need their story told,  but I'm not even getting good character moments out of it.

Then I'm being told how high the stakes are,  but unless you're Oliver their not.   Barry gets a loophole to save him and BoPs Oracle and Huntress are destroyed, call me petty but that's not their universe to destroy, that's rude af.

I also feel like there is a plothole with E90 Barry Allen being able to die in Barry's place.  Barry wasn't just told by the Monitor that he needed to die.

Barry also saw all possible futures and none of them worked without him dying.  Him.  Not E90 Barry Allen, but HIS BARRY ALLEN.

His Flash.

Having E90 die in his place is a massive plothole.

I'm irritated at TPTB borrowing from Marvel's Avengers Infinity War and Endgame.  Having Barry essentially act like Dr. Strange in seeing all the possible paths, but then he's still walking around blind is just irritating to me.  They also used him "seeing all of these possibilities" in this season of The Flash to shut down any hope the team had they could change this.  But then apparently Barry doesn't see that E90 BA exists and has been running on a treadmill for a year? He saw none of that?  He didn't see E90 doing exactly what he ended up doing?

BS.

This is why giving Barry that whole "seeing a billion futures and only ONE resulted in us winning... the one where I die" like he was Dr. Strange was a fail. The show was never gonna follow through - not that I wanted Barry to die - but the writers didn't actually resolve it.

Honestly the Savitar storyline with Iris had more stakes than this Crisis plot and that's a shame.  Not because they did the Savitar storyline wrong, but because they really failed Crisis w.r.t. to Barry.  

As a Flash fan, I always thought Crisis would end with The Flash show ending and Barry disappearing and dying.  I'm still more than a little ticked off that a storyline that was so integral to The Flash (this has been teased since the pilot) was given to Oliver instead.  It literally gutted The Flash of an emotionally weighty storyline that was rightfully his to begin with and gave it to Oliver.  I will never be convinced this was the original plan.

The plot holes prove it couldn't have been the original plan.  Not that the writers are that bad (they are), but because I can't imagine The Flash team setting up such a HUGE thing and then being happy with the emotional weight being handed off to another character.

For those who might claim that noooo TPTB didn't steal a Flash storyline and give it away to Oliver, read the original text of the 2024 article:

FLASH MISSING
VANISHES IN CRISIS

by Iris West-Allen
Thursday, April 25, 2024

After an extreme street battle with the Reverse-Flash, our city's very own Scarlet Speedster disappeared in an explosion of light. The cause of the fight is currently unknown. According to witnesses, The Flash, with help from Starling City's Green Arrow, The Atom, and Hawkgirl, began fighting the Reverse-Flash around midnight last night. The sky took on a deep crimson color as the ensuing battle created the most destruction this city has seen since The Flash first arrived in Central City.

Several trucks were caught in the fray, spilling their contents into the street. Power outages swept nearly twenty city block, between 16th street and Adams Avenue. Five of those blocks still remain without power. All of the buildings in the area were evacuated by the CCPD, with help from The Atom.

According to reports, as The Flash and Reverse-Flash battled with each other between two overturned tanker trucks, the lightning emanating from the speedsters threatened to ignite spilled oil leaking from one of the trucks.

The smoke from the truck's engine made it difficult to see, but it appeared at one point they were having a very heated conversation before continuing the fight. Then, suddenly, The Flash sped after Reverse-Flash and the two vanished leaving The Atom, Green Arrow and Hawkgirl behind.

An eyewitness who watched the battle from her apartment building before being evacuated said, "It was hard to see, but The Flash and Reverse-Flash were zipping up and down M-- Avenue and then there was a whole bunch of lightning, and then nothing. It was weird."

Other witnesses describe a similar phenomenon: a blinding light followed by darkness as the sky returned to black. And as the --- reverted, it took only a moment to realize The Flash and the Reverse-Flash were gone without a trace.

Central City Police Chief, Joe West gave a press conference in the wee hours of the morning stating, "We don't have many details now. What we do know tonight is Central City's greatest protector vanished in a flash. I only hope he returns just as quickly." A sentiment shared by all who call this great city home.

Edited December 11, 2019 by phoenics

[lemotomato]

15 minutes ago, phoenics said:

As a Flash fan, I always thought Crisis would end with The Flash show ending and Barry disappearing and dying.  I'm still more than a little ticked off that a storyline that was so integral to The Flash (this has been teased since the pilot) was given to Oliver instead.  It literally gutted The Flash of an emotionally weighty storyline that was rightfully his to begin with and gave it to Oliver.  I will never be convinced this was the original plan.

Technically, it wasn’t given to Oliver. They had Flash 90 take Barry’s place in the “vanishing” headline, so it’s still a Flash storyline, just not Barry’s. 

Unless Barry dying and becoming the Spectre was also a storyline promised to him.

[phoenics]

25 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

Technically, it wasn’t given to Oliver. They had Flash 90 take Barry’s place in the “vanishing” headline, so it’s still a Flash storyline, just not Barry’s. 

Unless Barry dying and becoming the Spectre was also a storyline promised to him.

No.  What I mean is Crisis was meant to be a Flash storyline with Barry at the center of it.  Oliver wasn't supposed to die.  A lot changed, imo, when Stephen Amell decided to quit.  I'm not suggesting that Oliver didn't deserve a proper send off - I'm just saying I now do not believe Crisis was the right vehicle to use for his send off.

I don't think some non-Flash fans realize that Crisis wasn't just a storyline on the Flash, it was basically both his Origin story AND his disappearance story... but this is the moment RF chooses to go back to the past to kill Nora Allen and Barry follows him to try to stop him and THAT leads to him becoming The Flash.

Making Crisis mostly about Oliver instead in terms of narrative and emotional weight was ... not the right decision, imo.  For Ollie or for Barry.  It robbed Barry of a storyline that was rightfully his (and jacked his own mythology up) and didn't really do right by Oliver either, imo.  It's giving Oliver importance by doing what many critics of the character have said all along: that Oliver is only made important for the most part by ripping off comic canon from other more traditionally A List characters (first Batman, then Barry, now Hal Jordan's Spectre arc).

They should have done better for both Barry and Oliver.

TPTB changed the original plans for Crisis in order to make that Oliver's sendoff when that wasn't his before (either in comic canon or in how the Arrowverse had been treating Crisis up until SA decided to leave).  Read the original 2024 article here (which makes it pretty clear that Crisis was originally centering Barry) and which has been an impetus on The Flash show since it's actual pilot episode and that the show goes to over and over again on this show:

Quote

FLASH MISSING
VANISHES IN CRISIS

by Iris West-Allen
Thursday, April 25, 2024

After an extreme street battle with the Reverse-Flash, our city's very own Scarlet Speedster disappeared in an explosion of light. The cause of the fight is currently unknown. According to witnesses, The Flash, with help from Starling City's Green Arrow, The Atom, and Hawkgirl, began fighting the Reverse-Flash around midnight last night. The sky took on a deep crimson color as the ensuing battle created the most destruction this city has seen since The Flash first arrived in Central City.

Several trucks were caught in the fray, spilling their contents into the street. Power outages swept nearly twenty city block, between 16th street and Adams Avenue. Five of those blocks still remain without power. All of the buildings in the area were evacuated by the CCPD, with help from The Atom.

According to reports, as The Flash and Reverse-Flash battled with each other between two overturned tanker trucks, the lightning emanating from the speedsters threatened to ignite spilled oil leaking from one of the trucks.

The smoke from the truck's engine made it difficult to see, but it appeared at one point they were having a very heated conversation before continuing the fight. Then, suddenly, The Flash sped after Reverse-Flash and the two vanished leaving The Atom, Green Arrow and Hawkgirl behind.

An eyewitness who watched the battle from her apartment building before being evacuated said, "It was hard to see, but The Flash and Reverse-Flash were zipping up and down M-- Avenue and then there was a whole bunch of lightning, and then nothing. It was weird."

Other witnesses describe a similar phenomenon: a blinding light followed by darkness as the sky returned to black. And as the --- reverted, it took only a moment to realize The Flash and the Reverse-Flash were gone without a trace.

Central City Police Chief, Joe West gave a press conference in the wee hours of the morning stating, "We don't have many details now. What we do know tonight is Central City's greatest protector vanished in a flash. I only hope he returns just as quickly." A sentiment shared by all who call this great city home.

Edited December 11, 2019 by phoenics

[jmonique]

Rewatching...

The more I think about it, the more annoyed I am that out of all the characters they have at their disposal, the Powers That be decided Jon Cryer's Lex Luthor deserved more screen time across this crisis than any of the Supermen, or Oliver's son, or any of the sidekicks. They were apparently offering Michael Rosenbaum scale to appear as his Lex, but Cryer's Lex gets to probably kill off the most interesting Superman the Arrowverse has ever had, and stick around? It all smacks of contrived conflict.

I also question the wisdom of ALL THIS BUILDUP, and then a four-week break right in the middle of this huge event.

I like how Kara and Kate were walking around in their civvies for most of the Batwoman segment of this crossover, but they have to be in their official outfits on Flash because apparently people might get confused?

"Looks a lot like Lian Yu."
"Which is Mandarin for purgatory." I'm guessing it's also Hollywood for "We only have so many possible sets and locations."

I missed Vibe. 

Lois Lane is iconic, but I don't understand the focus on her over Alex, Lena, Joe, Luke, Mary, William, Laurel or any of the other characters who could have watched the computer monitors on the ship.

Six years of build-up to Barry's inevitable disappearance, and basically it amounts to "No, not that Barry Allen"?

Oh, hello, random McGuffin wandering through the woods whom Oliver's of course going to immediately trust.

I also don't understand why Pariah could only save the seven people. There really weren't that many more on the ship.

[appositival]

Does anyone know why Osric Chau was called Ryan Choi instead of Alternate! Kevin Tran? Supernatural has alternate universes, including Earth negative-several-zillion, where the brothers are stars on a cheesy TV show,

Also, why did no one say, "Would you rather hug your wife and child while they die, or try to save them?" CWverse motivation often boils down to, "you should do this because my life sucks too".

I'm pretty sure that the ending to this crossover will be Ashton Kutcher awaklening John Cryer on "the couch" and telling him that he was having a bad (or good!) dream. That, or obvious time-travel shenanigans.
 

[Writing Wrongs]

6 hours ago, Trini said:

Birds of Prey cameo was cool; wished we had seen the others too, though.

They should've thrown Lori Loughlin a bone and brought her back as Canary.

[bmoore4026]

5 hours ago, GSManiac said:

How can all universes be destroyed when there is an infinite number? Or is there actually a set number and not infinite at all.

Don't think.  Thinking destroys superhero media.

[shantown]

4 hours ago, Starry said:

I always thought Tom Cavanagh isn't as versatile as others believe but his Pariah is terrible. Maybe part of it is the writing but he's botching the character and I hate it.

Every character he plays is just a variation on how loud he whispers and how shifty his eyes are. The only convincingly effective character he's played is Reverse Flash, and even that doesn't have the same impact anymore since they drain that well dry practically every year.
 

43 minutes ago, phoenics said:

No.  What I mean is Crisis was meant to be a Flash storyline with Barry at the center of it.  Oliver wasn't supposed to die.  A lot changed, imo, when Stephen Amell decided to quit.  I'm not suggesting that Oliver didn't deserve a proper send off - I'm just saying I now do not believe Crisis was the right vehicle to use for his send off.

Yeah, I think both Flash and Arrow fans can agree that this isn't what they wanted, regardless of which character they like more.
 

40 minutes ago, jmonique said:

The more I think about it, the more annoyed I am that out of all the characters they have at their disposal, the Powers That be decided Jon Cryer's Lex Luthor deserved more screen time across this crisis than any of the Supermen, or Oliver's son, or any of the sidekicks.

Yeah I'm a little ticked that instead of getting a little more dialogue and breathing room for (what should be) huge beats - WestAllen saying goodbye, Kara losing her planet and family (and generally not being filled in on the crisis when the other two knew for months), Oliver dying and Sara/Mia/Barry/DIGGLE!/William saying goodbye, Oliver becoming Spectre, etc - we are spending time on Lex. I like that Jon Cryer is a fan and seems to be enjoying himself on screen and off but it ain't what I'm here for.

[Featherhat]

39 minutes ago, Writing Wrongs said:

They should've thrown Lori Loughlin a bone and brought her back as Canary.

She's a bit too busy with facing the possibility of years in prison at the moment. 

I don't feel like Oliver has taken Barry's staring role in Crisis. He hasn't been the A plot since part 1 and not a huge amount of screentime. I doubt any version they had in mind was Barry turning into Spectre. They had the opportunity to focus on Barry a lot more than they did but they sacrificed it for a quick switcheroo that I couldn't believe they actually went with. He did have a lot more to do in this episode but I feel like JC's Lex Luthor is somewhat unexpectedly overshadowing a lot of characters. 

Whilst you can argue they should have given Oliver a different send off and left Crisis to GG's final year and I can agree with that, Barry will live to have several more opportunities to really lead the crossovers and you know, build a future with his wife and maybe have twins. It's not exactly how I wanted Oliver to go out either. 

Edited December 11, 2019 by Featherhat

[Gregg247]

I'm enjoying the crossover, but everything is so sped up.  I feel like characters are arriving like bullets shot out of a rifle.  Hurry! Hurry! Hurry!  It's like taking Avengers: Infinity Wars and Avengers: Endgame and compressing them both into a 1 hour special episode on the CW.

I like the cameos.

I laughed out loud when they found Oliver in Purgatory and somehow all his memories came flooding back.  Then, some random dude walked out of the jungle in a windbreaker, told them he was Jim Corrigan, The Spectre, and he needed Oliver to "take over" for him, and Oliver said, "Sure!"  LOL  Terrible writing!

I thought the "Paragons" were going to be a slow-roll reveal after Part 2, but last night, they just threw everyone's names out there.  It happened so fast.  Was Martian Manhunter one of them?  I liked BR's Superman, so I was very sorry to see him get replaced by Lex "Loser". 

If changing the Book of Destiny means simply scratching out someone's name and writing in your own, Supergirl should have a pretty easy time reversing all the damage the Anti-Monitor has done!

It looks like EVERYTHING is reverseable, so I don't feel like there's anything really at stake in this Crisis Event.

[phoenics]

17 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

She's a bit too busy with facing the possibility of years in prison at the moment. 

I don't feel like Oliver has taken Barry's staring role in Crisis. He hasn't been the A plot since part 1 and not a huge amount of screentime. I doubt any version they had in mind was Barry turning into Spectre. They had the opportunity to focus on Barry a lot more than they did but they sacrificed it for a quick switcheroo that I couldn't believe they actually went with. He did have a lot more to do in this episode but I feel like JC's Lex Luthor is somewhat unexpectedly overshadowing a lot of characters. 

Whilst you can argue they should have given Oliver a different send off and left Crisis to GG's final year and I can agree with that, Barry will live to have several more opportunities to really lead the crossovers and you know, build a future with his wife and maybe have twins. It's not exactly how I wanted Oliver to go out either. 

I feel like I'm being misunderstood.  My point is that the Crisis storyline was the wrong one to use for Oliver's story/narrative/whatever because Crisis is actually both Barry Allen's Endgame storyline AND his Origin storyline in one.

This isn't just about Barry not being able to be the hero - this is about TPTB taking a storyline that literally created The Flash - it's at the core of his mythology and the writers changed all of it and handed it over to Oliver as his swan song.

That's why I'm saying Crisis wasn't the right storyline for this.

Yeah - Barry will have other chances to be the BDH - but that's not what my frustration is about.  And according to the original article from 2024 and even subsequent ones, TPTB did take a storyline that was started on The Flash, grounded by The Flash and integral to The Flash's entire existence and mythology and gave it all to Oliver as his big send off.  Crisis - for Oliver - hasn't just been this crossover - it has been his whole season. And one could also argue that the reason the Flash lead in to Crisis has been so poor is that the emotional weight and narrative of it was playing out on Arrow for Oliver, instead of Barry, where it had been teased for 5+ years.  Because it was HIS story.

I wish they'd chosen something else to send Oliver off with.

My fear is that even on The Flash, they aren't even going to address this huge shift.

Edited December 11, 2019 by phoenics

[apinknightmare]

6 minutes ago, phoenics said:

And one could also argue that the reason the Flash lead in to Crisis has been so poor is that the emotional weight and narrative of it was playing out on Arrow for Oliver, instead of Barry, where it had been teased for 5+ years.  Because it was HIS story.

The Flash writers bungling their storyline for Barry has nothing whatsoever to do with what happens over on Arrow. Arrow's storyline has felt more emotional because whether Oliver dies for good, disappears for good or whatever, that show isn't coming back and these are actually the last moments we have with most of the characters on that show (pending the spin-off pickup), so they've packed in a lot of nostalgia and goodbye because it is actually a goodbye for the people who watch it.

If the Flash writers didn't write the lead up to Barry's death in an emotionally satisfying way because they knew he wasn't actually going to die or disappear, that's their problem. 

[Bruinsfan]

4 hours ago, TV Anonymous said:

Imagine if Henry Cavill was also involved.

If the producers making Shazam couldn't pony up enough money to get him for a 5-second cameo, there was never any hope of it happening on TV. My jaw would have dropped if he had appeared, though.

2 hours ago, Glory said:

Henry Cavill is a BEAST! He'd probably make Routh look small. It's ridiculous how huge that man is.

Despite his height, he manages to not look tiny next to Jason Momoa and Armie Hammer!

I've been really impressed with Ruby Rose's work in this crossover, which is a 180° from how I felt about her as Batwoman this time last year. She and Melissa have really awesome friend chemistry, glad that the showrunners are aware of that.

Seeing John Wesley Shipp as the Flash again and giving his version the iconic heroic sacrifice was the most enjoyable moment of the whole crossover for me so far. I'm pretty much over the titular character at this point, but the CW has definitely been doing right by Shipp.

Iris was also given some really good scenes this time around, particularly the one with Ryan Choi. Candice Patton was great. I like that they're showing ordinary people without powers or costumes can still be heroic in their own right, and they're not being relegated to a spinning casualty ticker in the background.

[phoenics]

51 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

The Flash writers bungling their storyline for Barry has nothing whatsoever to do with what happens over on Arrow. Arrow's storyline has felt more emotional because whether Oliver dies for good, disappears for good or whatever, that show isn't coming back and these are actually the last moments we have with most of the characters on that show (pending the spin-off pickup), so they've packed in a lot of nostalgia and goodbye because it is actually a goodbye for the people who watch it.

If the Flash writers didn't write the lead up to Barry's death in an emotionally satisfying way because they knew he wasn't actually going to die or disappear, that's their problem. 

The issue isn't just about the bungled lead in - it's that now Crisis is over, it had zip to do with what The Flash writers had been building for 5 whole seasons - since the show premiered.  I get it - Arrow fans are happy to get the emotional send off for their fave - but I wish it had happened another way - a way that didn't gut the Crisis storyline of 5 seasons of buildup from The Flash writers just to see all that evaporate. 

The ending of Crisis nullifies all of it.  And it destroyed Barry Allen's disappearance and origin storyline - Crisis was when RF was supposed to go back in time to kill Barry's mother, leading to Barry becoming The Flash, and simultaneously causing him to disappear from Crisis too. 

My question is:  after all of this is said and done - will The Flash ever be allowed to revisit the whole RF/Flash storyline that was integral to Crisis from The Flash's pilot episode and built on over 5+ seasons, or is that it?

What happens to all of that previously Crisis-integral stuff?

[TheMasterReborn]

I'm confused about Mick and the Waverider.  Is this our Mick from Earth-1 or is this a different Mick?  I missed what he said regarding the Waverider voice being Snart's and why.

I'm curious if we will see the original Earth-1 Snart at the Vanishing Point.  There were several fan theories that when Snart died, he might have become part of the Oculus.  It'd be nice if they could find a way to bring back Earth-1 Snart. 

[Moya the Leviathan]

14 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

ETA: Did we need a reminder of Birds of Prey? Really? Fuck, why not go with The Shazam/Isis Hour? 

Yes, we did.  The TV series may have been a poor incarnation, but BoP is very much woven into DC and Arrowverse.  The Canaries in particular, but also Huntress (which possibly could revert to Batwoman or maybe the Titans), Hawkgirl was a member, and so was Vixen. Felicity's wheelchair story is lifted from Oracle, not to mention her role as the eyes of the team.  Wikipedia tells me that Katana was also a member.  

Also, Sara Lance could totally use a thoughtful TEAM PLAYER like Andrea Thomas.  

[Trini]

6 hours ago, Starry said:

I still don't get why Lois has better and more emotional scenes with Brandon's Superman than her own damn husband. I am surprised at how much Tyler's Clark has been underused during this crossover. Lois is faring better than him.

Yeah, weird.

6 hours ago, Starry said:

I always thought Tom Cavanagh isn't as versatile as others believe but his Pariah is terrible. Maybe part of it is the writing but he's botching the character and I hate it.

I mean, I'm not sure what his comic counterpart did, but now I don't even know why they included him here? He was a handy deus ex machina in a couple of scenes, but otherwise kind of a waste.

[Trini]

3 hours ago, phoenics said:

I also feel like there is a plothole with E90 Barry Allen being able to die in Barry's place.  Barry wasn't just told by the Monitor that he needed to die.

Barry also saw all possible futures and none of them worked without him dying.  Him.  Not E90 Barry Allen, but HIS BARRY ALLEN.

His Flash.

Having E90 die in his place is a massive plothole.

<...>

This is why giving Barry that whole "seeing a billion futures and only ONE resulted in us winning... the one where I die" like he was Dr. Strange was a fail. The show was never gonna follow through - not that I wanted Barry to die - but the writers didn't actually resolve it.

3 hours ago, jmonique said:

Six years of build-up to Barry's inevitable disappearance, and basically it amounts to "No, not that Barry Allen"?

I've got a theory about this.

Maybe our Barry Allen actually will die in the second half. Since the other Flash died and the universe got eaten anyway, clearly that didn't work. Barry's going to sacrifice himself for real to fulfill the prophecy.