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S06.E09: Crisis On Infinite Earths Part Three

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So everyone is dead? Mia? Ray? Everyone except for these people?! Am I dead? Am I a pair of ghost hands? Does television even exist or did it all just get destroyed?!

I admit that I got totally swept away in the drama and the scope of the whole thing, but so much is going down so quickly, that I feel like I am losing the emotions behind everything. We get the older version of The Flash dying (complete with flashback to his show!) and its very dramatic, but then we just have to move on. We get Constantine reuniting Mia and Diggle with Oliver in Purgatory, only for him to have this other guy (is it spoilers to say who this guy is?!) randomly show up and tell him he has yet another freaking destiny and cant go back home again, and it all just happened so quickly! There were a lot of really great moments, my fangirl brain is freaking out seeing all of this play out in live action, and nerd that I am I totally get all of the cameos, and I adore them, but its all happening so fast, I cant really enjoy it or feel anything thats happening. I mean, so much shit is going down constantly, I cant really take a minute and let it wash over me and they never let my (or the characters) get a second to breath. 

Can the next crossover be Dr. Linda from Lucifer doing therapy sessions with all of the other Arrowverse characters all popping in? Now that Cisco had his powers back, that shouldn't be any problem!

I have...many thoughts that I need to get together, but all I can say now is, how am I supposed to wait until January?!

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1 hour ago, phoenics said:

The issue isn't just about the bungled lead in - it's that now Crisis is over, it had zip to do with what The Flash writers had been building for 5 whole seasons - since the show premiered.  I get it - Arrow fans are happy to get the emotional send off for their fave - but I wish it had happened another way - a way that didn't gut the Crisis storyline of 5 seasons of buildup from The Flash writers just to see all that evaporate. 

The ending of Crisis nullifies all of it.  And it destroyed Barry Allen's disappearance and origin storyline - Crisis was when RF was supposed to go back in time to kill Barry's mother, leading to Barry becoming The Flash, and simultaneously causing him to disappear from Crisis too. 

My question is:  after all of this is said and done - will The Flash ever be allowed to revisit the whole RF/Flash storyline that was integral to Crisis from The Flash's pilot episode and built on over 5+ seasons, or is that it?

What happens to all of that previously Crisis-integral stuff?

I get what you are saying. They used the wrong storyline arc for the cross-over. Since this is Oliver/Arrow's last season, Oliver deserved and should be the center of this cross-over. But the storyline should have come from Arrow's own arc/narrative. So the crisis arc shouldn't have been used because base on the Flash narrative, it is Barry's story. It is his biggest narrative. Watching any other character play a bigger part then him feels wrong narratively speaking. It feels force.

They should have used a different vehicle for Oliver's send off. One where it would make totally sense for the main focus of the cross-over to be on him and the supporting characters on Arrow. It would have been a proper send off and keep it from feeling like they cheated him from putting his own final stamp on the Arrowverse and keep crisis for Barry's final season, where it would have made sense for Oliver to show up again. 

But this is not the first time these writers have used the wrong vehicle for their cross-over. 

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1 hour ago, TheMasterReborn said:

I'm confused about Mick and the Waverider.  Is this our Mick from Earth-1 or is this a different Mick?  I missed what he said regarding the Waverider voice being Snart's and why.

Mick and the Waverider were plucked from a parallel Earth, because

Spoiler

the full Legends cast won't be called into the crossover until part 5.

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4 hours ago, jmonique said:

I also don't understand why Pariah could only save the seven people. There really weren't that many more on the ship.

He only saved the Paragons.

1 hour ago, TheMasterReborn said:

I'm confused about Mick and the Waverider.  Is this our Mick from Earth-1 or is this a different Mick?  I missed what he said regarding the Waverider voice being Snart's and why.

It was Mick from another earth. And his ship's "Gideon" happened to be Leonard.

Edited by Trini

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I missed hearing Snart refer to Ray as Raymond so much. 

I do kind of wonder if this was the right crossover for the end of Arrow, or if this would have been better served as a Flash focused event. Oliver's death should have been a focus of all of this, both ending his time as a character and the show that started all of this, instead of "well he died in the first part, got resurrected for a second in the second episode, and was found in Purgatory for about three seconds in part three only for a "well hi guys, nice to see you! "Oh wait, this rando has a thing for me to do, gotta go! Guess this was awkward and pointless!" I mean, I was thrilled for him to get a last moment with Diggle and Oliver and Mia and Oliver, but it just seems like he and his cast are an afterthought in all of this. 

Although to be fair, most everyone seems to be some kind of afterthought, there is so much stuff happening. Barry finally has the date with destiny that has been looming over him for the whole series, and...I guess not? We get a little adventure for various characters, but most everyone this week was kind of playing tag trying to do stuff, and not spending much time really focusing on anything or anyone. This series also freaking loves Jon Cryer as Lex Luther, and while I really like him too, and thought he was one of the best things to come out of last seasons Supergirl, the writers are way too in love with him, giving him TONS of screentime and time on his antics, that I would much rather focus on many of the other characters. And now he shows up again, because sharpies can defeat ancient prophecies, and the rest of the heroes are just gonna have to put up with him? I doubt he will be very helpful (this writing staff seems to be more into his petty dick side than his competent or interesting side) and I would have much preferred to have Brandon's Superman around instead. Its also frustrating that most of all of this, like Oliver's sacrifice, 90s Barry's sacrifice, all ended up being pretty pointless, considering everyone but the Paragons are dead now. 

Random Stuff! 

I love how when Diggle got there, everyone was like "oh he is gonna be pissed!" as soon as he saw Oliver's body. Yeah Diggle, your wife is missing, and your best friend died, then got his soul sucked out of him in a hairbrained scheme to bring him back, and now we lost his soul somewhere! I did love all of the Diggle and Oliver feels, and more hugs! 

I had my suspicions, but I still squee when Lucifer showed up! And of course he and Constantine somehow know each other, and his reaction to all of this world ending drama is to just make some jokes and head back in for more booze! Very biblical indeed. So what the hell is this Maze and Constantine backstory? Can we get THAT as the next crossover?! I also love how Mia and Diggle are just like "...I cant even react to this right now." This also means that Tom Ellis has played the same character on THREE networks!

Iris/Ralph/Ray were a fun team, and Ryan Choi seems like a fun addition to the cast, although I am waiting to see how he really fits into all of this. Poor Ray just wanted to talk quantum mechanics! 

The Barry and Iris stuff was all good, and The Monitor finally does something I fully approve of: giving Cisco his powers back! Its time to end all of this no power stupidity and get moving. We also finally had Team Flash (or at least some of them) find out about Earth 2 and that Harry and Jessie are gone. 

The Birds of Prey cameo was fun, and as fanservicy-y as the cameos are, I am really liking them, its fun to kind of take this time to celebrate as much of DC as we can, which is pretty much what happened in the comic. 

Awesome seeing Jefferson show up for the party, even if its under pretty terrible circumstances, and I wish he had been around longer. He and Barry bonding over losing their fathers was really good, and I loved Diggle and Jefferson exchanging the "hey other black guy in the room" nod. 

Nice to use the end of space place that was established way back in season 1 of Legends. I wonder if the Legends crew will end up showing up as backup to our survivors, if maybe they survived as they were in the time stream at the time? 

I wish that the episodes could be a little bit longer so they could really build up the gravity of the situation. 

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24 minutes ago, Trini said:

He only saved the Paragons.

Exactly. Pariah could have also teleported Clark, Lois, Iris, Cisco, Caitlin, Diggle, Mia, Mick, Jefferson, Jonathan and Ralph off the ship, one would think. 

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2 minutes ago, jmonique said:

Exactly. Pariah could have also teleported Clark, Lois, Iris, Cisco, Caitlin, Diggle, Mia, Mick, Jefferson, Jonathan and Ralph off the ship, one would think. 

I think its more that the Paragons need to be alive to save the multiverse. 

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I think the best scenes from this part was Black Lightning's inclusion and his subsequent talk with Barry - even between the two lightning-based heroes, I didn't think there'd be as much of a spark between them as there turned out to be. I look forward to more potential Flash/BL scenes in the future. 

I liked Barry's goodbye with Iris, but the catharsis didn't set in as much as it could have because it was sort of rushed. Everything about this crossover has been so rushed for time. In the same vein, I did like the moment between Barry/Cisco/Caitlin, even if all this emotion ended up being fruitless over the OG Flash taking Barry's place.

I feel like I can't go on without stating this (and I think the user phoenics up above is right),

This is not the Crisis on Infinite Earths that was promise throughout the Flash's run. Where is Reverse Flash? Where is RF leading the shadow demons? The biggest battle that Central City has ever seen? What about Barry and RF disappearing in a beam of light and going back in time? What about the night of Barry's mother's death? 

All of those things were essential aspects of the Crisis story that was promised to us by The Flash. And yes, it's a crossover - of course all the other characters and their mythos are gonna have a part to play in it all (Oliver, Kara, etc), but this event and the entire story should have been framed around the show that hinted at this from it's pilot episode all the way to present day. Literally Crisis has been hanging over the show for it's entire run and so far Flash has felt like an afterthought in this whole extravaganza.

Speaking on the ending, I did like them using something from Legends' mythos and having the paragons be protected by the Vanishing Point. Looks like those time bastards from Season 1 were useful for something lmao. 

Edited by teenj12
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The other crossovers have been a dude-fest, so while there are still some problems overall, I do like that this time around we got some focus and bigger roles for characters like Kara/Supergirl, Lois, Iris, Kate/Batwoman, Lyla, Sara and Mia.

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9 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

I think its more that the Paragons need to be alive to save the multiverse. 

Which I get. But what I'm saying is, this HUGE crossover has been teased for years. And now we've ended up with just the six paragons (including a rando we just met), Lex and Oliver at the end, when there's no real reason why the very powerful Pariah couldn't have sent all 18 people on the ship out to the Vanishing Point. It just feels like contrived conflict, much like saddling us with Lex for at least another episode, instead of Kingdome Come Superman.

Edited by jmonique
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I'm sure it's not going to be just them for too long. At least for us. 

I'm fine with having less characters for a bit. It should give us more emotional weight with the focus on less characters. With just them we'll feel the weight of what just happened. They are the only 7 people left in the multiverse.

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2 hours ago, phoenics said:

The issue isn't just about the bungled lead in - it's that now Crisis is over, it had zip to do with what The Flash writers had been building for 5 whole seasons - since the show premiered.  I get it - Arrow fans are happy to get the emotional send off for their fave - but I wish it had happened another way - a way that didn't gut the Crisis storyline of 5 seasons of buildup from The Flash writers just to see all that evaporate. 

I get being disappointed. Arrow has been disappointing me for years, and those are just storylines that have been built up over a season or two, not 5+ years with a comic arc to boot. I'd prefer Arrow have ended last season - I don't need Oliver to have a big emotional send-off. I don't need him to be a god or the center of attention or the best hero ever. All I ever wanted was for him to get to see his kids grow up. The only thing that Arrow being involved in this crossover has given me that I wanted was for him to get to spend time with his kids before he dies/goes off to be Spectre/whatever other kind of bittersweet thing is going to keep him away for however many years.

I do think that as long as Berlanti and Guggenheim are running things that the likelihood of you ever getting the Crisis story you were expecting was probably pretty slim. There's no way they would pass up a chance to have everyone come together for an event like that and one of Guggenheim's favorite things is subverting expectations, even if the twist is stupid and lacking in payoff. He mentioned killing Oliver off in the first episode of the crossover because people wouldn't be expecting it, and I wouldn't be surprised if E-90 Barry taking Barry's spot was changed for a similar reason. You've known for 5+ years what was going to happen because that article told you so - surprise! You didn't actually know and to them that's the fun part, not giving people who've been watching these shows for years payoff to the arcs they've been building up to. 

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36 minutes ago, teenj12 said:

I think the best scenes from this part was Black Lightning's inclusion and his subsequent talk with Barry - even between the two lightning-based heroes, I didn't think there'd be as much of a spark between them as there turned out to be. I look forward to more potential Flash/BL scenes in the future. 

I totally agree. In fact, Cress Williams' cry to Pariah, "You should have saved my family, not me! Not me!" was the only thing that brought actual tears to my eyes. You felt his pain as a father and a husband. I felt more sorrow in Jefferson in that one moment than in Barry in all of 6A about losing his daughter and leaving his wife.

Spoiler

All Barry did in 6A was elevate his appreciation for his foster dad over his wife and focused on his team's feelings, including a raging b-day party for the woman who tried to help murder his wife a few seasons ago.

Jefferson Pierce has his priorities straight.

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2 hours ago, phoenics said:

What happens to all of that previously Crisis-integral stuff?

Like so much else in the Arrowverse, it died as it had lived, yet another victim of the Arrowverse's True Big Bad: Anti-Continuity.

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18 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Mia and Diggle just show back up on the Waverider and say that Oliver chose not to come back without mentioning the Mystery Spectre Man showing up to offer Oliver a better deal?

18 hours ago, calliope1975 said:

That actually cracked me up. All this work to Lazarus Pit Oliver, then to try to restore his soul, then to get him out of purgatory, and when they got back to the Waverider without him, it was a total of eh, Oliver wasn't interested in returning and everyone was all OK whatevs with zero follow up.

...not to speak of the fact that they still had feral non-zombie Oliver in the hold, the thought of that made me giggle all through that scene. I wonder what they would have done with him if everything hadn't been incinerated?

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7 hours ago, phoenics said:

In mine it's not, though?

I don't know what your experience is. I'm just telling you about mine. When I do the nod it's usually to another brotha.

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I loved Barry and Iris scenes. I loved Iris being called a hero twice. Iris was the right person to convince Ryan to help.

I feel cheated on Earth-90 Barry being the one to die. However, who knows what will happen in the second half. Barry could still die

Poor Cisco. He clearly didn't want his powers back.

The resurrecting Oliver plot was boring. 

I loved Jeff's scenes with Barry

I loved the nod Jeff and Diggle made to each other.

We all know these people are coming back. There's no real stakes in this crossover.

Killer Frost was literally not needed. At least Ralph went to go help recruit Ryan. Cisco helped as well. She did nothing but stood around. I wear this is proof Danielle contract must have her to appear in every episode.

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There's way too much going on. Not much makes sense. And it's hard to understand which makes all of the emotional impact we're supposed to feel fall completely flat. I'm too busy being overwhelmed and confused to really process anything that's happening. Which is disappointing. I really wanted to enjoy this.

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This is all really underwhelming.

I did like Iris' happiness at being reunited with Barry after he was supposed to die. Very good acting from both of them.

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20 minutes ago, silverstream said:

...not to speak of the fact that they still had feral non-zombie Oliver in the hold, the thought of that made me giggle all through that scene. I wonder what they would have done with him if everything hadn't been incinerated?

Speaking of ... what happens to that Oliver now?  I mean - let's say it's a give that they reverse E-1 and the Waverider being destroyed - is that Oliver really dead now?  So can he be buried?  Or does he still use the same body as Spectre?

So that Oliver will wake up as Spectre?  

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9 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

Don't worry we see you too *Nods*

That's why before this episode I was hoping Jennifer was along for the ride... She didn't vanish like the other Jens she kinda just dematerialized and it seems the antimatter wave was futzing her powers.. And I said earlier on the BL and episode two threads.. That these ppl need her reactions.. Forever perky Kara.. Consistently ignored Iris... Mountain on shoulder Mia... She woulda got on great with Sara.. And checked those three with some much needed truth... Tho kate did a good job with Kara... Maybe she'll pop up in a month... Who knows

I would love to see Jennifer shut Mia down. I don't like Mia at all.

Edited by mommalib
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17 minutes ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Killer Frost was literally not needed. At least Ralph went to go help recruit Ryan. Cisco helped as well. She did nothing but stood around. I wear this is proof Danielle contract must have her to appear in every episode.

Perhaps DP was taking it easy because of her pregnancy. That being said, it does seem like she has some contractual requirement to be in each episode. Also, her KF is really acting a lot like Caitlin; there's practically no distinction now. And how or why did KF express concern for Jesse Wells when she didn't know her?

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Time for some random musings on all three episodes from someone who knows nothing about the comics and watches fewer than half of the Flarrowverse shows! Try to contain your excitement, everyone.  (And for the record, I'm a Supergirl and former Legends viewer)

  • How apt was it that J'onn is named as one of the Special Snowflakes Paragons yet never mentioned or seen again until a brief appearance at the very end of the episode? After all, why should his treatment during the crossover be any different from his regular treatment on SG. And never mind that a psychic, shape-shifting, flying alien with the ability to phase through solid objects might be a help when trying to save the universe.
  • Cisco's real superpower is his awesome, awesome hair.
  • And while I'm in the shallow end of the pool, Oliver continues to have pretty pretty eyes.
  • Jon Cryer's clearly still having a blast playing Lex, and I'm still having a blast watching him, against all expectations (his appearances in last season's Supergirl gave the opportunity to really delve into more aspects of the character, so if any non-SG viewers feel inclined to give it a go during the hiatus, go for it)
  • LEONARD!!! Even disembodied AI Leonard!! That was Wentworth Miller, right? It sure sounded like him. I do love Mick and Leonard snarking off each other.
  • I knew Mick would be the one with the magic touch to quiet baby Jonathon, lol.
  • By all means everyone, please ignore the warning of the one person in existence who's actually been through a Lazarus Pit resurrection. I'm sure you all know much better than her anyway.
  • Bitsie continues to make an excellent Lois.
  • I'm guessing copyright issues prevented Luci from mentioning Chloe and Dr. Linda in his cameo.
  • The only character more boring than the Moniter was the AntiMoniter. I'm with Cisco, those names are terrible.
  • I never saw Brandon's Superman movie, but damn he made a good Man of Steel. He's such a talented actor, and seems to be a genuinely good guy to boot.
  • Was I the only one that thought having Erica Durance play both Alura and Lois was really weird and jarring? And likewise Brandon as both Superman and Ray, but I'm willing to overlook that since I like BR.
  • Kellogg from Continuum! Why do you have glowing green eyes?
  • My recording stopped right when Lex held up the Book of Destiny and started quipping. I guess my DVR lost interest and gave up too.

So overall... I don't know the comic arc or the separate CW shows as well as many of you, but I found this overall to be a little flat. Was it fun? Yup. Was it exciting? Sure. Did I like spotting the cameos even if I'm familiar with few of them? You bet. But this felt like a bit of a jumble, trying to do too many things in too short a time with too few resources. Did they do the best they could with what they had? Definitely, and clearly a lot of hard work went into this. But overall I'm feeling pretty meh. The Nazi invasion felt like more of a true crossover than this has so far. I guess we'll just have to see what January brings with the Legends and Arrow(?) episodes.

ETA: I just notice I completely forgot to mention Batwoman, but I guess that sums up my impressions of her. I did like her friendship with Kara, though.

And though many of you have already said it, it bears repeating that there's absolutely no stakes or suspense with this - we know they're going to bring most everyone back, since they're not going to permanently kill off 99% of their casts. Also, with so much nonsensical stuff going on every second (while strangely very little of importance happens overall) it's hard to be invested in any of it. "Ollie's dead! Let's bring him back! Oh, it went wrong! Oh, it's fixed now! Oh, he's staying dead! Smell ya later Ollie!"

Edited by Maelstrom
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1 hour ago, Starry said:

They gave us Flash fans Crisis without really giving us Crisis. It's likely they were always going to do a bad job but the fact that the date was moved up to line up with Arrow's series finale didn't help.

THIS.

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On 12/10/2019 at 9:34 PM, phoenics said:

There was a lot more #WestAllen in this episode - but it felt like they shoved a LOT in and didn't allow it to breathe enough to have the emotional weight.  I felt like Iris' emotional chat with Ryan Choi had the most emotional punch... because it was allowed to breathe... the WestAllen scenes still felt rushed.  This is why I still believe not letting that build up properly on the actual Flash show was a HUGE mistake - because when I should have felt SO MUCH MORE with them, I was just feeling like their scenes were too rushed.  I did think that part where Barry realized they were vanishing and Iris wasn't and he reached for her and both he and Iris grasped air... that was really well done.

And Iris' look of absolute quiet despair to Superman as they were annihilated got me in my chest.

I just wanted to feel so much more with the Westallen scenes and I feel robbed because of how rushed they shot them.

Them reaching for each other got me 😭😭😭😭😭

17 hours ago, Trini said:

Really sweet WestAllen scene. Although, they used a more emotional take in the promos - why'd they change it? Liked how they paralleled both Barrys thinking of their wives as they're going to die.

💔

14 hours ago, Starry said:

Barry being the Paragon of Love is fitting. He's guided by love. For better or worse. His love for Iris powers him up. I think that the WestAllen moments were good and I always love their chemistry but I agree that the promo had a more emotional take and that their scenes were a bit rushed and all compressed into one episode. This show has editing and direction issues which were for me apparent during the final group scene as well. 

I loved Iris with Ryan and Barry giving her credit for her intelligence and compassion. But I really don't understand how we went from "I am going to die for sure" to "No matter how long it takes I promise you I'll run back to you". Except the other Flash is dead dead which is something that Barry acknowledged in his reunion scene with Iris. Was he just trying to make her feel better by lying about coming back to her? I am going to go with "the writers are so sloppy that they forget what happens from one scene to the next". But I loved that Iris was always in Barry's thoughts and was his priority and the one he always mentioned even when she wasn't with him.

#WestAllen forever! Seriously, Candice and Grant's acting is the only reason that there is any emotion in the rushed dialogue and scenes between them. They always bring it. I am always imagining better scenes for them then we ever actually get. Heck, you guys have better idea's here, about upping the emotional stakes and better storytelling.

Also 100% agree with your posts @phoenics in regards to Crisis; it has nothing to do with any other show or character being the lead in this crossover. What is left for the big overarching storyline for The Flash now? When we're done with Crisis is the newspaper headline gone from the Vault?

Overall, still enjoying the crossover, just not thinking to hard about any of the science or plotholes.

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2 hours ago, Chaser said:

The Flash isn’t even going to be on in 5 years. It was always going to be moved up. 

Now see, I always figured they’d move Crisis up. They obviously wanted to do it while all four Flash, Arrow, Legends, and Supergirl were still airing altogether (i.e the original "phase" of shows). Arrow coming to an end just so happened to be a coincidence, but in general at some point they came to realize that none of these shows (with the slightly possible exception of Flash) were making it all the way to 2024 to match up with the original date.

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14 minutes ago, teenj12 said:

Now see, I always figured they’d move Crisis up. They obviously wanted to do it while all four Flash, Arrow, Legends, and Supergirl were still airing altogether (i.e the original "phase" of shows). Arrow coming to an end just so happened to be a coincidence, but in general at some point they came to realize that none of these shows (with the slightly possible exception of Flash) were making it all the way to 2024 to match up with the original date.

I agree with you that they didn't need to wait until 2024 to do Crisis, and that they wanted all the shows to participate; but disagree that Arrow ending was a coincidence. They definitely moved it up so that Arrow could participate.

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Alright y’all.  We’re in the Endgame now.  And what I mean by that is...the Legends are probably somehow bumbling their way over to save the day.  The Legends have always been the best part of the crossovers for me - their snarky comments and sandwiches during Invasion, them being the cavalry during COEX, and their complaints during their absence in Elseworlds.  One thing that I noticed - the time stream has access to the Vanishing Point.  The time stream has access to all the universes (as established in Pt. 1).  The time stream was also not affected by major events like Flashpoint so it’s possible that it’s still existing.  So maybe the Legends are on their way?  I wouldn’t mind Ava, Nate, Zari, Zari’s brother, and Charli stomping off the ship led by Captain Mick.  With Sara and Ray gone, Mick is definitely in charge over there.

Few things -

Kate and Kara have convinced me that Lena either needs a major attitude adjustment, or needs to go.  THIS is a balanced friendship to rival Barry and Oliver.  They’re madly supportive, they talk things through, and they operate on trust.  They also call each other out if needed.

I am living for Arrow and Canary in this crossover.  They’ve always been my favorite pair in the Arrowverse, and I’m loving the emotional beats, shared history, and fight scenes throughout all the episodes.  The other wannabe canaries could never accomplish what Stephen and Caity bring together. 
 

Diggle and BrandonSuperman are the only reasonable people here.  
 

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Since I watch Black Lightning, I agree with other people on Twitter. Jefferson should've been a paragon of something

I also with agree with some people in I don't know how Sara is the paragon of destiny. Does that fit her?

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27 minutes ago, BeautifulFlower said:

I also with agree with some people in I don't know how Sara is the paragon of destiny. Does that fit her?

I'm assuming they gave her destiny since she is constantly trying to save Time....even though the Legends just screw it up and face no consequences. 

2 hours ago, way2interested said:

Whoever is in charge of BL gear needs to team up with the Vancouver person and give them some tips. Especially with the magnets for some.

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48 minutes ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Since I watch Black Lightning, I agree with other people on Twitter. Jefferson should've been a paragon of something

I also with agree with some people in I don't know how Sara is the paragon of destiny. Does that fit her?

She did say something in S2 of LOT about knowing that she wasn't meant to be a normal person now but in response to Malcolm offering to undo the bombing of the Gambit. And Legends have also occasionally talked about them all being meant to end up together or on the Waverider like the totems from S3. 

It works ok but like most of them it could have fit several characters and she could have fit several other "Paragon" labels depending on what they want to emphasize. It doesn't fit only her like the Death Totem did. 

I guess it's a BTS mix of lead of a show, character they want to promote and availability. Maybe CW didn't have the time for filming more? Especially as he's not based in Vancouver and the rest of the show didn't shut down production like the Van based shows. I haven't seen if he's going to be in the back half. 

Edited by Featherhat
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I'm liking the Crisis crossover for the most part, even though it's pretty busy. One of the things that bugs me though is that too many people are too often just sitting around doing nothing or chatting with other folks. For such a huge crisis, too many are not being utilized correctly

Is there an explanation for the Spectre thing with Oliver?

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2 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Jefferson should've been a paragon of something

Agreed; perhaps the paragon of wisdom, enlightenment, or knowledge since he's a teacher. Teachers have always been my favorite people.

Edited by adora721
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I am all for big drama and dramatic tension, but by killing everyone except for the paragons, it just makes me worried that this will all end with nothing really mattering or changing, except for Oliver being dead (or a ghostly spirit of justice) and his show ending. Will everyone else just get brought back along with all of the worlds, and we just move on? I can guess about what I think could/should happen based on the comic and my own preferences, but I kind of suspect that we might be pushing the great big red reset button. 

Spoiler

What I've thought would happen is that most of the main Arrowverse shows would end up all being brought back to one world, and that they now all exist on Earth 1, and that from their perspective it will have always been that way. Maybe they will keep a few other worlds just no one will travel to them because people will forget that they exist, but everything will mostly be Earth 1 based. Until of course, like in the comics, we do another crossover and bring it all back in a few seasons! I dont know if thats exactly what I want or how it would work, but its what I originally expected to happen. 

Seeing Sara being awesome again and the natural chemistry she has with the whole Arrow cast (especially Oliver) just makes the rest of the flock of canaries that Arrow has tried to make a Thing over the years seem even lamer in comparison. 

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13 hours ago, teenj12 said:

Now see, I always figured they’d move Crisis up. They obviously wanted to do it while all four Flash, Arrow, Legends, and Supergirl were still airing altogether (i.e the original "phase" of shows). Arrow coming to an end just so happened to be a coincidence, but in general at some point they came to realize that none of these shows (with the slightly possible exception of Flash) were making it all the way to 2024 to match up with the original date.

Pretty sure Crisis was moved up because Arrow was ending - that's why they teased it at the end of Elseworlds - TPTB knew Arrow was ending then.

Crisis probably would have been moved up all along, it's true, but if Arrow wasn't ending, they could have done what TF had been planning for 5 years instead of the version we've gotten.

Like I said originally, I always thought Crisis was going to be The Flash's series finale - and instead it's become Oliver's for the most part.  

Aside from that - now I'm wondering (if Barry continues to live past Crisis) how the show will explain that he's not dead from him essentially being a time remnant?

I don't think they will explore this at all - which is a shame.  It could be a really interesting storyline for Iris to realize that the article she's written doesn't line up with the original article and realize that Barry's days are still numbered.

Maybe that will be part of the impact of Crisis that the writers keep telling us will happen...?

I'm not hopeful.

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25 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I am all for big drama and dramatic tension, but by killing everyone except for the paragons, it just makes me worried that this will all end with nothing really mattering or changing, except for Oliver being dead (or a ghostly spirit of justice) and his show ending. Will everyone else just get brought back along with all of the worlds, and we just move on? I can guess about what I think could/should happen based on the comic and my own preferences, but I kind of suspect that we might be pushing the great big red reset button.

I agree about this - my thought going into Crisis is that we would end up with one Earth-1... the question is, would all of the doppelgangers merge into one person, or would they co-exist?

Merging them would be SOOO New-52 and I'm not sure I want that, but co-existing ones would be interesting - seeing an evil Iris West trying to kill E-1 Iris West to take over her life, sort of thing?

I dunno.

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1 hour ago, phoenics said:

seeing an evil Iris West trying to kill E-1 Iris West to take over her life, sort of thing?

Why wouldn't evil Iris West take vengeance on the woman who tried to murder E1 Iris West?😂

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1 hour ago, phoenics said:

seeing an evil Iris West trying to kill E-1 Iris West to take over her life, sort of thing?

YES... YES.. 

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2 hours ago, adora721 said:

Why wouldn't evil Iris West take vengeance on the woman who tried to murder E1 Iris West?😂

Because I'd rather not see her centered? But we can still have Evil!Iris take as many jabs at Iris choosing to be friendly with someone who tried to kill her and never apologized.  

Evil!Iris could even set up the other one for bad stuff happening to good!Iris.

Okay new idea.  Evil!Iris is now renamed woke!Iris and she goes around calling out TF for how they've treated Iris... first in small potshots, then in larger moments... like an angry translator, lol.

I'd watch the hell out of that... 

Or or!! Woke!Iris could be Iris' subconscious coming to life that was somehow created during Crisis and she basically goes around making TF pay for their shitty behavior.

Hahaha... maybe she can call Barry out... he's been acting weird lately.

Edited by phoenics
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When you look it from the lense of the show ... the disappearance of E1 Barry Allen is supposed to happen during the fight with Reverse Flash. That is what the article has always stated. Barrys role wasnt to defeat the Anti-Monitor. The show seemed to ignore the fact that Barry is going to go missing. For years Barry only focused on the fact that Iris was the one who wrote the article, but disregarded the content. I feel like the setup for how they approached Barrys role in Crisis in this season was also all wrong. They should have went with focusing on the Reverse Flash part of Crisis for Barry. Something very personal for Barry. Instead they just went ham with Barry has to die for everybody to survive. At the end of s5 we had RF make a promise to Barry to see him in next Crisis. And yet apparently the Flash writers didnt think to incorporate that into the lead up  to Crisis for Barry. And it ended up with a mess with the whole Barrys switcheroo which doesnt make any sense if you go according to the article. The problem is also that the show constantly ignored the build up for Iris to write the article. They knew since SDCC 2018 that Crisis will happen in 2019 and yet floundered their SL instead of building towards it.  That gave them enough time for a proper Crisis build up.

There is this idea that Oliver is taking Barrys place when its so far away from the truth. Stephen Amell has basically slept through the last two episode of Crisis. Though love the hustle, get the money. I also dont think Oliver will stay Spectre beyond this crossover so he could appear in future crossovers. The was SA voiced it was basically never say never but indicated he would come back for something like the end of Flash or special occasion.

I would honestly say Barry and Kara just dont have a proactive role in Crisis, the role of the leader was taken over by Sara in the absence of Oliver. I dont think Crisis was moved up to have Oliver take over the crossover. It was to feature as many heroes as possible in the biggest event ever. Because lets be honest yes Arrow might be ending this season, but Supergirl might not be continuing past next year either. The contracts for the Flash will be up as well. There is a lot of uncertainty regarding the big superhero shows on the CW. I think all of these reasons contributed to the fact that Crisis was moved up. 

And if i am not mistaken that a group of writers was chosen just for the crossover event. And writers from all the shows were part of this group. The fact tha this is what they came up with is embarassing.

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6 hours ago, phoenics said:

I agree about this - my thought going into Crisis is that we would end up with one Earth-1... the question is, would all of the doppelgangers merge into one person, or would they co-exist?

Merging them would be SOOO New-52 and I'm not sure I want that, but co-existing ones would be interesting - seeing an evil Iris West trying to kill E-1 Iris West to take over her life, sort of thing?

I dunno.

 On Black Lightning, Jennifer told her dopplegangers that something was destroying their worlds or merging them.   That's the only reference I've heard to merging the worlds but they did put it out there.  I still think there's going to be  reset button though.  Batwoman, Supergirl and Black Lightning are in the middle of season-long plots and they're not going to scrap the pieces they've put in place.

 I know Kate works well with Kara, but I wish they'd let her interact with other characters.  She got to snark on Ray a bit but otherwise it's been almost all her and Kara.   Maybe if the next episode is mostly the Paragons she'll get to mingle.

 I get Cisco didn't want his powers anymore, but dude...it's Crisis mode, literally.  If someone can give you back your powers, take em.   You can always take the cure again later.

 I know that they have tied Crisis on Infinite Earths to the newspaper article--even to the point of having it move up--but there are multiple Crisis plots in the comics and I wouldn't be surprised if thee Crisis that involves the Reverse Flash is still going to be the series finale.    

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Keep discussion focused on the events of the episode. The thread in the Legends of Tomorrow forum is the best place to discuss the aired parts of the crossover thus far. There are spoilers posted freely so enter at your own risk. If you want to discuss the crossover without spoilers then take a moment and think about what the focus of your post is (characters, relationships, media, unspoiled speculation, etc.) before going to the relevant thread in the relevant forum. Continuing to go off-topic can result in warnings so be mindful when you post.

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Huh. 

Yeah, I’m not exactly thrilled over having to wait until after the holidays for the conclusion. 

This is supposed to be a five part event, isn’t it? Is the conclusion going to be double length? 

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13 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Since I watch Black Lightning, I agree with other people on Twitter. Jefferson should've been a paragon of something

They couldn't make Jefferson a paragon because Cress Williams probably wasn't available to film for more one episode. 

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1 hour ago, Last Time Lord said:

This is supposed to be a five part event, isn’t it? Is the conclusion going to be double length? 

It will be an Arrow episode and a Legends episode aired back-to-back on the same night.

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I liked how this part does what The Flash does best (when it wants to), emphasize heart, and family. So many characters had at least a line about their spouses, parents, or children. I thought the Iris/Ryan, Barry/Jefferson, and Barry/Barry scenes were especially good. And not family, but the Kara/Kate scenes showing the strength of their friendship despite being at odds were really nice too.

I think Barry does have the most in common with Jefferson, so it was great that they had them make a connection.

But yes, shoutout to the Diggle/Jefferson head nod!

A good episode for Barry/Iris. There were two reunion embraces, a reunion kiss, a goodbye kiss, a whole private scene of reaffirmation of love and commitment that connected to a plot point, and even Barry reaching for Iris as he's disappearing. 😢

Edited by Trini · Reason: grammar!
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