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  1. Starry

    Relationships: Speed Dating

    I think this is the issue. We can recognize that Iris is the most important person to Barry so why isn't she the one getting the most story after Barry? I agree that this was never going to be Barry&Iris but it shouldn't be Barry&Team either. Legends is the only Arrowverse show that has been sold as a team show. This one is about Barry so the natural order should be 1) Barry 2) Iris (because the shows structure presents her as the most important person to him not just from a sentimental standpoint but from a narrative one) 3) everyone else. Instead Flash started off with putting Barry above everyone else but lumping Iris in with the rest of the supporting cast which doesn't make sense because as the most important person to the lead she should be under Barry but above the rest, not on equal footing. Now they have gone one step further and from mid-season 4 they have put Barry himself on the same level as the rest of the cast. Because Iris is important to Barry she's narratively relevant. She isn't a character who can be lifted off the canvas with no repercussions but at the same time she's someone whose story potential gets sacrificed to sell a Team Flash dynamic that shouldn't have been this prominent considering the premise (Barry is the lead, everyone else is supporting). I think this is where the disconnect is coming from. I have seen fans insist that Iris was the reason the other characters were getting sidelined when she became team leader but IMO it's the other way around. Iris' personal story as a reporter was getting sacrificed to accommodate Team Flash. In the end, centering Team Flash means giving more importance to those characters whose relevancy begings and ends with whatever position they occupy at STAR Labs. Even Iris' romantic relationship with Barry took a backseat to sell a Mr&Mrs. STAR Labs dynamic. I disagree that the first season was about Barry&Joe and then everyone else because while Joe was Barry's confidante he didn't drive his story. IMO the shows narrative positioned Iris, Thawne and Barry's parents as the characters who were the most needed in telling the story they were telling. Cisco&Caitlin were needed at STAR Labs but the lab wasn't story. Barry loving Iris and wanting to get justice for his parents/fighting Reverse Flash were the story.
  2. Starry

    Caitlin Snow

    To me it looks like Caitlin is being handled by two different sets of people. One group pushes for Caitlin to be portrayed as this sacred character who is often coddled, never held accountable and always gets plots and supporting characters at the expense of other regulars. The other group, the ones who have to actually write for her, they are indifferent and write things for her just because they feel like they have to. The fact that Caitlin is one of the people who are the least relevant to Barry and his character development is to me evidence that they don't care that much about her. I have been feeling this way about Barry's relationship with Caitlin for many seasons now. I don't know. It's like this character and her story is a walking, talking contradiction. I agree with both those who think Caitlin is written this way because she's special/sacred and with those who believe she's written this way because they don't care. Everyone has made good points.
  3. Starry

    Spoilers and Spoiler Discussion

    Provided that they tackle the issue of dating when KF is also inhabiting Caitlin's body, I wouldn't mind Caitlin getting a new love interest. My problem is that she already has a story with her mother turning into an ice meta. A family plot and a love interest plot is two plots too many for a character I want to see less of. I think this new addition is a man. When they don't specify a character's gender or race, they always end up being male/white. And I wouldn't want it to be Sue not because I don't want Sue to be African-American, but because I don't want her to be a science genius. She isn't in the comics and I would like the show to keep it that way and to put her in Iris' orbit. I also expect Sue to be immediately linked to Ralph given the tease in the finale. This new character could be Cisco's replacement or he could be introduced just to die in Crisis. Aliens are not a staple in the Flash universe. That part about him being obsessed with aliens seems oddly specific and a possible Crisis tease. I do like that this new science genius is black because black people in STEM are underrepresented and the one time they did make a black character, Wally, be in a STEM field, they made sure to point out he felt inferior to the white and non-black scientists.
  4. Starry

    Spoilers and Spoiler Discussion

    I agree. They've got an easy way out here because they can explain it away with a simple "that line was said by Barry in a different future/aborted timeline".
  5. Starry

    Spoilers and Spoiler Discussion

    This discussion is making me nervous. A Crisis pregnancy reveal followed by a time jump is a big NO for me. I think it can happen because like you said they need something to up the stakes but I would hate it. The fun thing about pregnancies is what follows the reveal. I don't want to miss all the WestAllen cuteness that could/should come with it because they want Barry to vanish and come back after a time jump. Would he even be there for the baby's birth? Even if Barry disappears and re-appears three seconds later I would still loathe the idea of a time jump because, again, I don't want to miss the pregnancy stages and for the show to come back and the baby is already born. The writers may hate me but I hope they don't hate me this much 😧 In short, I need them to do either the time jump or the pregnancy.
  6. Starry

    Season 6 Wish List

    More POV and heroic moments for Barry. He should go back to being the protagonist again. More quiet, romantic scenes between Barry and Iris. They have a gorgeous set for their apartment. They should use it more. More police work. More journalism. Less STAR Labs. No more Wellses. No more meta-Cecile. Consistent storylines or mini-arcs for supporting characters not named Killer Frost. I believe they've done enough with her. Not everything should be treated as a Team Flash problem, especially when it's strictly about family. Bring back the heart! As usual, I need Iris in the crossover.
  7. We are not arguing the same point because I think Flash is the show that is getting bent out of shape to suit this crossover, with its series finale storyline being moved up/altered so Arrow can be a part of Crisis. Oliver and Arrow weren't needed to set up the crossover/suit Flash stories. The higher-ups clearly wanted Arrow to be a part of it so here we are. That's where we disagree. I actually hoped until the last second that the newspaper Crisis wasn't COIE and that Flash could keep that Crisis for itself but the finale killed that hope. I understand that some Arrow fans don't care about COIE or any of this big comic stories but from a producer's perspective having Oliver be in Crisis should be viewed as a honor. Choosing such a huge story to end the show and possibly pay homage to Oliver as the founder of the Arrowverse should be seen as a positive thing. Does it help that the Flash 100th episode wasn't good? I knew that it wouldn't be good and I personally wanted it to be a part of the crossover. I was still watching Arrow when their 100th aired and despite it falling on the crossover, it felt like an Arrow episode IMO. Barry and Kara were barely there. I too always dread the crossovers. Kara is sidelined most of the time. The Supergirl cast is barely there. Barry gets dumbed down and important aspects of his character get ignored thanks to the showrunner's obsession with keeping Iris out of it, etc. Their crossover episodes barely feel like Supergirl or Flash episodes while I think with Oliver it's clear that he's important. He's usually the one leading whether it's an Arrow episode or not. I thought the Arrow flashforwards were about a future that was set in stone and the only thing s8 and the crossover needed to do was fill in the blanks. You guys seem to harbor some hope though. Fingers crossed that they change it and Oliver doesn't die.
  8. The deal Oliver made at the end is evidence that we are not supposed to agree with them. Despite his mistakes and character flaws, Oliver was selfless enough to sacrifice himself for others. I don't get how we are supposed to view him as anything but honorable and sympathetic. Here's the thing. Grant Gustin and the Flash producers have repeatedly claimed that Crisis was supposed to be their series finale. The fact that it was moved up and it's basically serving as an Arrow series finale is another reason why I believe that show gets favored. While you don't agree with my thoughts on past crossovers, you are willing to concede that this time it might be different because the show is ending. Except the fact that they are using what was originally conceived as the Flash series finale to maybe favor Arrow because this is their last crossover is what's making Flash fans upset. I get that Oliver fans don't want him to die but there's no guarantee Barry and Kara will live happily ever after. For all we know, they could get killed in their own series finales without getting the chance to watch their families grow up. Their deaths may not even be as heroic or get as much fanfare as Oliver's. Two words on Kate, I hope for no shipbaiting with Sara or anyone else. She has her canon love interest and I don't want that character to get hate right off the bat because of rival ships.
  9. Starry

    Scheduling & Ratings for The Flash

    They probably paired Batwoman with Supergirl because they are both female heroes.
  10. Starry

    Relationships: Speed Dating

    I don't see them doing much with Caitlin and Sue. Caitlin hasn't had enough friendly interactions with any female character. The same can be said for Iris but I feel like it's even worse with Caitlin. The closest she came to having a female friend was Felicity in the earlier seasons. Sadly, I can. I never really believed this would be her last season. I don't have the energy to comment on Iris/Nora. I was naive enough to hope they were going somewhere with their relationship after they got over the drama with the chip but I was proven wrong. The finale had its emotional, beautifully acted moments but it's too little, too late. I will never forget how they botched the West-Allen family dynamic. Iris was made to feel like she would never be enough for Nora. Barry was all talk. He never really acted like Nora made him a better person, taught him how to love someone this fully or whatever it was they made him say to prop up that relationship. I fully believed him when he admitted that he was weirded out by being suddenly pushed into the dad role. Barry and Iris haven't been this distant since season 2 which makes no sense because we are talking about their legacy here. At least they didn't make Iris pregnant from immaculate conception. Thankful for small blessings. There were a couple good episodes but there were also instances where I came close to disliking not only Nora, but also Barry and Iris. I don't want to feel this way about my favorite couple and their daughter.
  11. I wish Oliver hadn't made that deal to save Barry and Kara either. Even if he doesn't take their places in the Crisis like I feared, he did prevent their deaths in Elseworlds. Oliver got the sympathetic edit and the viewers saw him as the real hero. Barry and Kara were treated like they were nothing and are now forever indebted to him, even if it's just in the audience's mind. I hate it. From that conversation with the Monitor it does sound like Oliver was destined to perish in the Crisis regardless so at least there's that. I want Barry, Kara and the Legends to get their moment in the spotlight because from where I stand, these crossovers always favour Arrow in terms of story, sympathetic edit, etc. They moved up the Flash Crisis for this so I can only hope Barry gets to shine and do more than play second fiddle to others.
  12. Starry

    The Flash in the Media

    I figured they were moving up the final season Crisis to service Arrow the crossover. Thanks @Trini for posting the panel and finale interviews. Much appreciated.
  13. Starry

    Relationships: Speed Dating

    Tell that to the SB fans who complain all the time about Barry not having scenes with Caitlin. In all seriousness, there have been normal scenes between Iris and Caitlin if we are considering the series as a whole. The writers never gave me any indication that they were into any female friendship. I think sexism explains why they never cared for a Iris/Caitlin friendship more than any BTS issues between the actresses ever could. These are the same writers that constantly prioritize father/son bonds over father/daughter bonds and daughter/father bonds over daughter/mother bonds. Racism could also explain why in the few friendship scenes they've had, Caitlin is usually on the receiving end of the friendship act. I doubt this has much to do with AJK since the writing was one-sided in the second half of season 4 as well. AJK had no control over the script when they had Caitlin yell at Iris in 4x21 and never apologize for it. Iris discuss Killer Frost with Caitlin. Iris reassure Caitlin that they were going to bring back KF only for Cait to coldly and rudely dismiss her. Caitlin not being held accountable is also something that goes beyond her relationship, or lack thereof with Iris. I doubt Candice is losing any sleep over Snowest but I don't believe she asked Todd to minimize their scenes. Maybe the lack of chemistry between the actresses didn't inspire the writers to give them more but I remain of the opinion that BTS drama isn't the primary cause for the lack of a Iris/Caitlin friendship. As I said above, they have a horrible track record with positive female relationships in general. I find this whole argument interesting because while you and others are theorizing over Snowest, I am freaking out about the writers possibly adding insult to injury and forcing a surprise pregnancy on Iris after they had sidelined WestAllen for the entire season 🙄 This season has been such a disappointment, I don't want to rant about that too.
  14. Starry

    Relationships: Speed Dating

    This was addressed in season 4. Iris doesn't care. She was the one who reintroduced Frost into the team. I don't need them to fix anything. The show has problems juggling more than one relationship for each character and after the horrible season Barry and Iris had I'd rather the writers give them more scenes than waste screen time on a one-sided friendship their hearts aren't into. Both Iris and Caitlin have a better friendship with Ralph. Caitlin has supported Iris two times in five years, when she made her open up about Barry in 2x18 and when she adviced them to try couples therapy. I don't recall anything else. If Kamilla stays past this season, I'd rather she become Iris' friend.
  15. Starry

    S05.E20: Gone Rogue

    I would be more accepting of Barry and Iris letting Nora stay in the past if the show were framing it as them wanting to spend as much time with her as possible because there's a real possibility they'll never get the chance to be a family again. As far as they are concerned, Barry still vanishes a couple years after Nora's birth. The problem is that they have barely touched on it after the premiere, when Barry was eager to send Nora to her time but changes his mind after he finds out he's not in her future. If this were a consistent theme, being willing to mess with the timeline to keep the family together, I would be more open to the bad decision they are making. It would still be selfish, wrong and dangerous but there would be a character-driven reason instead of the plot-driven mess they are trying to sell. As far as I am concerned, Nora is still in the past because JPK is a series regular and Nora is needed for the Reverse Flash plot. Trusting Thawne? Wrong on so many levels. He's going to mess with them in the finale and they would only have themselves to blame. Thawne is such a master manipulator that he's IMO exploiting Nora's issues with Iris. I think he knew Iris would become such a pushover for her daughter, give him a chance because of her and be able to convince Barry as well.