S08.E06: The Iron Throne

[benteen]

5 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

 And also, fuck you, Tyrion.  However unforgivable Dany's actions, she is not worse than your evil sister and father.  Tywin and Cersei destroyed lives for pleasure and because they craved power.  They would never dream of trying to help people, as Dany did, and if they had even one dragon, they would probably would have blackened Westeros with it in the time it took Dany to save Jon beyond the Wall and fight in the Battle of Winterfell.  

With a dragon, Cersei without a doubt would have scorched Westeros to the ground.  I have no doubt about that.  Tywin would have been BRUTAL to his enemies and wracked up a lot of collateral damage but was smart enough to know that you can't be King of the Ashes.  That doesn't mean he wasn't a horribly evil man.  He was and so was Cersei.  But I don't think he would have gone completely scorched earth.

Cersei not being as bad as Dany is revisionist nonsense by D&D because Cersei is their favorite character.  To them, Jaime is a monster that loves killing but just what the hell is Cersei?  She's 10 times worse than Jaime's at his worst in the books.  But D&D love Lena so they love Cersei.

BTW, I've always been a fan of Bronn and met Jerome Flynn once.  Great guy.  But I hate Bronn getting this much power too.  He doesn't deserve it.  I think Bronn will end up ruling a land or two in the books (He has Stokeworth and is one of several making a claim to Rosby).  I expect he'll be one of the first ones to side with Dany when she comes to Westeros and might have some serious influence on the government.  But Lord of Highgarden, Warden and one of the richest men in Westeros?  Uh, no.

[Bryce Lynch]

7 minutes ago, bijoux said:

He also swore to go to the Wall, but I don’t think that ending necessarily states he’s going to go back there after escorting the Free Folk home.

If he was going to break all his oaths as soon as the Unsullied sailed off to their death by butterfly fever, why didn't he just become King?

[Sakura12]

Nothing has changed when they have one family ruling all of Westeros. That's why I hope in a few years when the rest of the Kingdoms realize how useless Bran is a King, they all say they want to be independent too. If he says no then they will know it was nepotism and more wars will break out. 

Also did the whole Prince that was promised prophecy mean nothing? Or maybe the Three Eyed Raven started it since apparently his plan was to rule and he knew by starting that rumor everyone would start killing themselves for it and then they'd choose him as King.

[anamika]

20 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Bran even being Bran is BS.  He has been telling everyone he is not Brandon Stark anymore for several seasons.    He couldn't be Lord of Winterfell, but he can be King of the Seven Six Kingdoms?

I mean Bran as written on the show is ultimately evil. As he tells the council, when they wanted to make him king - 'that's why I am here'. He knew what was going to go down with Dany and he just allowed thousands to die so that he could become king. And Tyrion knows what he is and hears him say this and still voted to make him king.  

Terrible really.

And then we have Sansa who plotted to take down Dany and despite her brother, a Stark, being king, wants an independent North for no other reason other than she wants to wear a crown and be queen. Pretty sure that Yara and the Dornish prince are plotting for their own independence after that. So possibly civil war once again.

The show was supposed to be about an exploration of power and how power corrupts, but we got nothing of that. Dany just went mad at the end because it was in her genes. The people who did not want power or care for power - Jon and Arya - fucked off to the corners of the world in the end. And the power hungry idiots - Bronn, Sansa, Tyrion etc. - continue to be in charge and hold power.

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, benteen said:

With a dragon, Cersei without a doubt would have scorched Westeros to the ground.  I have no doubt about that.  Tywin would have been BRUTAL to his enemies and wracked up a lot of collateral damage but was smart enough to know that you can't be King of the Ashes.  That doesn't mean he wasn't a horribly evil man.  He was and so was Cersei.  But I don't think he would have gone completely scorched earth.

Cersei not being as bad as Dany is revisionist nonsense by D&D because Cersei is their favorite character.  To them, Jaime is a monster that loves killing but just what the hell is Cersei?  She's 10 times worse than Jaime's at his worst in the books.  But D&D love Lena so they love Cersei.

BTW, I've always been a fan of Bronn and met Jerome Flynn once.  Great guy.  But I hate Bronn getting this much power too.  He doesn't deserve it.  I think Bronn will end up ruling a land or two in the books (He has Stokeworth and is one of several making a claim to Rosby).  I expect he'll be one of the first ones to side with Dany when she comes to Westeros and might have some serious influence on the government.  But Lord of Highgarden, Warden and one of the richest men in Westeros?  Uh, no.

I hate what they did to Dany in the last 2 episodes and I hate the way they gave Jaime and Cersei are romantic ending, that seemed to legitimize their sick relationship and her evil life.

But Cersei never did anything quite as bad as what Dany did when she burned all those tends of thousands (at least) of innocent men, women and children, after the battle had already been won.  

I agree about Bronn , and if they must put him on the small council, why not make him Master of War?

[bijoux]

4 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

If he was going to break all his oaths as soon as the Unsullied sailed off to their death by butterfly fever, why didn't he just become King?

Maybe he stuck to his guns about not wanting the position? But your point reminds me of something else. I do think both Jon and Gendry should have been brought up as options during the quasi trial. Maybe some other lords besides Edmure as well. It feels like it should have been a meatier scene. This was very paint by numbers. Edmure makes a fool of himself - Tyrion speechifies - Bran the Broken - Six Kingdoms. It should have been messier and longer. Most of the people there either didn't speak or got a single line. It feels like a waste. 

Also, I'm finding Arya as a ship captain odd on reflection. I was all for it when I assumed we were getting a flash forward, but this isn't earned. I called her going west of Westeros, I'm fine with that part. But she knows nothing about being the captain of a ship. Plus, Arya is definitely a character who is willing to put in the work to learn and earn something. Another shortcut. 

[benteen]

4 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I hate what they did to Dany in the last 2 episodes and I hate the way they gave Jaime and Cersei are romantic ending, that seemed to legitimize their sick relationship and her evil life.

But Cersei never did anything quite as bad as what Dany did when she burned all those tends of thousands (at least) of innocent men, women and children, after the battle had already been won.  

I agree about Bronn , and if they must put him on the small council, why not make him Master of War?

As much as they toned down Cersei for the show, I have no doubt she would still have scorched Westeros to the ground. 

Master of War would be a more fitting position for Bronn.  Giving a greedy sellsword who you can bribe in charge of the treasury is insane.  I wouldn't put it past him to try and get rid of Bran.

[WatchrTina]

5 hours ago, Glade said:

And with all the shots of Sam, where was Gilly and their son? 

Ooooh that's a good question.  Maesters of the Citadel can't marry, can they?  So does Sam's new role a Grand Maester mean that Gilly and little Sam and her unborn child were banished to Horn Hill to live with Sam's mother and sister as his secret not-wife?  If so, that's a bit sad.  But I guess, if you think about it, Ned was put in the same position in the very first episode -- called to Kings Landing to serve a king and forced to leave his wife and (most of) his children at home, far far away.  So I guess that's just what happened in Westeos when duty calls.

[Bryce Lynch]

4 minutes ago, benteen said:

As much as they toned down Cersei for the show, I have no doubt she would still have scorched Westeros to the ground. 

Master of War would be a more fitting position for Bronn.  Giving a greedy sellsword who you can bribe in charge of the treasury is insane.  I wouldn't put it past him to try and get rid of Bran.

While Cersei might well have done worse, if she had a dragon, I don't recall her ever doing anything that bad.  IIRC, all of her killings were either for self preservation, to expand or maintain power for revenge against people who she had some sort of legitimate beef with.  I don't remember her killing for the fun of killing.   Don't get me wrong, Cersei was totally evil, but retconned Dany was even worse.  

5 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

Ooooh that's a good question.  Maesters of the Citadel can't marry, can they?  So does Sam's new role a Grand Maester mean that Gilly and little Sam and her unborn child were banished to Horn Hill to live with Sam's mother and sister as his secret not-wife?  If so, that's a bit sad.  But I guess, if you think about it, Ned was put in the same position in the very first episode -- called to Kings Landing to serve a king and forced to leave his wife and (most of) his children at home, far far away.  So I guess that's just what happened in Westeos when duty calls.

Well, Sam was never much for following rules and the writers seem to have abandoned many of the rules and other realities of the GOT universe, so I imagine they just hand waved Gilly and the kids into KL with Sam.  

[benteen]

There was a rumor recently that one of the series HBO was considering was a sequel series involving an adult Arya is a character, maybe set in Braavos or Essos?  Don't know how true that is but if they did a series with Arya exploring the lands of the Sunset Sea, I would definitely watch it.  I've always found that fascinating, the lands that aren't in the map.  What's been shown on A World of Ice and Fire maps is probably just a small portion of a much larger world.  I'd love to see that explored.  Maybe Arya will find the descendants of the Stark fleet that was lost out there centuries earlier.

[WatchrTina]

11 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

as soon as the Unsullied sailed off to their death by butterfly fever

Gods I love this board.  THAT is some obscure book-lore.  Bravo!

(For those who don't get it, there is a video (by All-Shift-X, right?) that recently explained that the reason Naarth (Missandei's home island) has no army is because it's infested with a butterfly that carries a fever that is fatal to all but the natives.) 

As such . . . it looks like Grey Worm is sailing to his doom on Naarth.  Oh well, things are different in the TV-verse.

Edited May 21, 2019 by WatchrTina

[stagmania]

24 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

Ooooh that's a good question.  Maesters of the Citadel can't marry, can they?  So does Sam's new role a Grand Maester mean that Gilly and little Sam and her unborn child were banished to Horn Hill to live with Sam's mother and sister as his secret not-wife?  If so, that's a bit sad.  But I guess, if you think about it, Ned was put in the same position in the very first episode -- called to Kings Landing to serve a king and forced to leave his wife and (most of) his children at home, far far away.  So I guess that's just what happened in Westeos when duty calls.

Sam never went through his Maester training anyway, so none of his ending makes sense. I would just handwave it as Sam being his own special kind of pretend Maester who does what he wants.

[shrewd.buddha]

There is no way GrayWorm would have let Jon and Tyrion live long enough for a trial. (Even with the jet packs that Sansa and Bran seem to have used to get to King's Landing.)

I was not particularly moved by Tryrion finding the bodies of Jamie and Cersei. And I was not moved by Brienne's attempt to rectcon Jamie's history in the big book of historical assholes. 

So, Bran bears no responsibility for setting the whole tragic chain of events in motion? And never sharing any of his omniscient  information in an attempt to save innocent people? He served up Jon Snow as the fall guy - the supposed rightful heir - and Jon gets shipped off to the north to never marry or have children. 
Bran and Sam ended up doing pretty well for themselves after just a few weeks of getting the Rightful King rumor mill started. 

And lastly, Tyrion  pushing Bran as leader because, instead of gold or weapons,   stories and storytellers are the most reliable, enduring means of binding people together? ...what a BS way to try to suck your own dicks, D&D...

Edited May 21, 2019 by shrewd.buddha

[jeansheridan]

23 minutes ago, bijoux said:

Also, I'm finding Arya as a ship captain odd on reflection. I

I just thought she was the main passenger.  She has experience on ships so her comfort level made sense. I assume she was given a ship or hired a ship. Davos knows people. And I am quite sure Tyrion was happy to see her leave. 

The last five minutes were really satisfying as a series of images. The sense of movement, of going forward into the future, and Jon looking back one more time at the gate closing. Sure it's a bit on the nose but I like that for a conclusion. Drogon out in the wild is an okay open ending for me. Those final visual beats felt right.

I am a sucker for callbacks. My favorite ending of any season was Arya taking off on the boat, finally free of Westeros. 

[Callista]

50 minutes ago, anamika said:

I mean Bran as written on the show is ultimately evil. As he tells the council, when they wanted to make him king - 'that's why I am here'. He knew what was going to go down with Dany and he just allowed thousands to die so that he could become king. And Tyrion knows what he is and hears him say this and still voted to make him king.  

Terrible really.

And then we have Sansa who plotted to take down Dany and despite her brother, a Stark, being king, wants an independent North for no other reason other than she wants to wear a crown and be queen. Pretty sure that Yara and the Dornish prince are plotting for their own independence after that. So possibly civil war once again.

The show was supposed to be about an exploration of power and how power corrupts, but we got nothing of that. Dany just went mad at the end because it was in her genes. The people who did not want power or care for power - Jon and Arya - fucked off to the corners of the world in the end. And the power hungry idiots - Bronn, Sansa, Tyrion etc. - continue to be in charge and hold power.

I hope the last book includes an epilogue/appendices (like those in LOTR) which give us some idea of what happens after Tyrion, Sansa, etc. come to power. And I hope things do start getting messed up again--as you mentioned, a civil war because the other kingdoms haven't been granted their independence; some people on the council getting corrupted; etc.  That would be much more realistic.  The show's ending just seems too neat, even Disney-like, for me, with its implication that things are going to be better from now on because the [supposedly] "good" characters are in charge. 

Edited May 20, 2019 by Callista

[benteen]

20 minutes ago, stagmania said:

Sam never went through his Maester training anyway, so none of his ending makes sense. I would just handwave it as Sam being his own special kind of pretend Maester who does what he wants.

Sam has been the show's ultimate fantasy wish fulfillment character.  He gets to leave the Night's Watch, he steals his father's family sword (which would have led to his father hunting him down and killing him), he steals from the Citadel and gets away with it. 

[Misplaced]

Again probably in a minority, but I thought it was a good ending. I’m not ready to say I loved it because it is the END of GoT which kinda bums me out .... but I liked it a lot. There were “fitting” ends:

Arya exploring the West — as she said she would do, to Lady Crane back in Season 6, so as expected.  

Jon “up North”, where he grew into himself over the first five seasons, ranging beyond the Wall into the True North.  And Ghost!  Yay!  It’s as if Jon found his family again, after he was rudely torn from his Northishness after finding out he is a Targaryean.

Sansa as QITN and the North as independent doesn’t surprise me in the least.  I’ve said elsewhere that I think GRRM is on the Scottish Independence train, so an independent North seems totally natural to me and I would guess that is indeed GRRM’s ending. Red-headed Queen and all (though I believe Mary Queen of Scots was actually a blonde).

I was pleasantly surprised that Tyrion suggested Bran the Broken become King, although the Five-Good-Emperors scenario in hindsight seems very GRRM — now the Seven-oops-Six Kingdoms are the Roman Empire.  None of the Five Good Emperors had male children and each was adopted by the former Good Emperor; the system lasted nearly 100 years so not all bad .... and worth noting the whole system went to hell when Marcus Aurelius named his son as his successor.  So, wheel broken, I guess? 

One scene that particularly struck me = Jon going to see Tyrion in his cell.  There was SO much in that scene reflecting the Jon-and-Mance-Ryder-cell-scene in 5.01.  Death by fire predicted for both Tyrion and Mance for taking a stance; Jon having to make a decision in each case that puts his own safety at risk, and making that decision regardless.  

Jon as Azor Ahai, stabbing the woman he loved through the heart?

Lots more to think about, including that incredible score.  But those are my first thoughts, and I freely admit I got a *little* weepy, even. 

Edited May 20, 2019 by Misplaced
Grammar, always grammar...

[Misplaced]

Oh and PS - I got the giggles when Tyrion found Jaime’s hand: I kept expecting Jaime to leap up a la Monty Python with “I’m not dead yet!  I’m not dead yet!” which is wholly unfair to Peter D’s acting ability.

[Keely]

47 minutes ago, anamika said:

I mean Bran as written on the show is ultimately evil. As he tells the council, when they wanted to make him king - 'that's why I am here'. He knew what was going to go down with Dany and he just allowed thousands to die so that he could become king. And Tyrion knows what he is and hears him say this and still voted to make him king.  

Terrible really.

And then we have Sansa who plotted to take down Dany and despite her brother, a Stark, being king, wants an independent North for no other reason other than she wants to wear a crown and be queen. Pretty sure that Yara and the Dornish prince are plotting for their own independence after that. So possibly civil war once again.

Based on what we were given, Bran plotted to take Dany down the same as Sansa - to be king presumably. 

He was adamant Jon be told who his parents were . He pressed the issue. The show gave us zero reason why he had to be told much less for the timing of it. Lacking any other reason, its purpose must then be the one thing it accomplished: fracturing Dany and Jon. Everything that came after, including Dany's turn, was a direct result of Bran's meddling. Given Bran knew everything in advance, he became an active participant in the events that followed. The choice to remain silent is still a choice - especially when he placed himself on the throne through his choice(s).

[RobertDeSneero]

1 hour ago, benteen said:

Master of War would be a more fitting position for Bronn.  Giving a greedy sellsword who you can bribe in charge of the treasury is insane.  I wouldn't put it past him to try and get rid of Bran.

As Lord of Highgarden, Bronn is now rich.  He's basically there to loan money to the Crown.  And maybe to force people to pay their taxes.

[Scarlett45]

Forgot to add- Benjen is alive and North of the Wall. I wonder if with the Night King dead he’s still bound to that side by magic. In my head Jon is going to look for him. 

Edited to add- I’m very wrong. Benjen was killed by when he saved Jon and gave him his horse in season 7. 

[Amtosbm]

Now that I can process this I can see Martin writing this ending. It would be like him to build up Dany and then tear her down. Plus we all know the entire family was nuts. She really was the living embodiment of power corrupts and absolute power corrects absolutely. What I can't understand is was everything Rhaeger did for nothing. Cause literally he put this whole thing in motion by starting a war that killed millions to fulfill a prophecy? All for Jon? I mean as someone mentioned up thread what the hell was the PWP and Azor Ahai reborn about?  Is anyone able to explain this to me cause I am lost about Jon's overriding reason for existing and how stupid Rhaeger was. I can see why Jon had no wish to be labelled one of the Targ family. And he broke his Night Watch vows before so I am still fan winking the poor guy gets a happy ending with some woman and a family of his own. Someone other than Bronn and Tyrion deserve it. And here's hoping Davros gets a new family as well! I think Sansa will marry again eventually or at least take a consort. But no way is she giving up her right to rule. I can only hope she is inspired by the women of Bear Island.

[Enigma X]

I am absolutely surprised that a lot of people still think that Martin will do anything that makes more sense or better. Although I hated the finale and the whole final season, the show became better for me after it surpassed the books. (Not that it was bad or that I agreed with every change—hated what they did with Stannis—but it was better overall.)

And I have read all but the last published book.

[stagmania]

I tend to agree with this analysis of how a MAJOR cut from the books reverberated through the story and made a mess of multiple character arcs. For this reason, I do think GRRM could get to some version of this ending in a way that makes a lot more sense. 

[festivus]

I liked it. The season had some pacing problems but I'm not unhappy with the way things ended. It is bittersweet and I'm fine with endings like that. My faves Brienne, Tormund, Davos and Arya survived. Despite Jon whinging about "his queen" (which I never bought) I loved his ending. Probably my favorite. I got chills when he he was heading off north with the Wildlings and the door shut. Perfect. I actually love that his whole thing about being a Targaryen didn't really matter in the end. There are only five people alive that know it and Jon ended up in the far north where he always belonged. I think his time there was the only time he was anywhere close to approaching happy. He never wanted power and now he gets to just be.

I might also like it because I called about 75% of it. The only thing I didn't call was Bran being king. I do so love to be right. I love that Bran stayed creepy right up to the end and the small council still sucks (in the best way. I've always enjoyed the small council meetings more than just about anything). Petty little humans. 😄

Edited May 20, 2019 by festivus
extra word

[chrisvee]

5 hours ago, Affogato said:

They all needed to be there for Jon. 

ITA and found it touching they were all there. They still are brother and sisters which we needed to see.

[Dev F]

9 hours ago, RealityCreator said:

And whatever happened to the super secret yet super important fact that Jon is Aegon Fing Targaryen?  It was only used as an excuse to lead us to the shocking scene when Jon has to assassinate Dany?  There is no other reason for him being Aegon Targaryen in the story at all?

I think the writers did try very half-assedly to give Jon's heritage a role in the story. It seems like that was the point of Jon encountering Drogon outside the throne room -- Dany felt safe hanging out there unguarded because her dragon was at the door to keep any intruders from entering, but Jon's Valyrian heritage meant that Drogon would let him pass.

Of course, the better way to handle the situation would've been for Jon to have to leverage his identity in some meaningful way to get it Dany, but as usual the writers insisted on keeping everything as simple as possible, even when the situation demanded something more complex.

Which goes back to one of the main reasons why the show got worse in its later seasons, I think. When the series started, its main hook with the meaty political intrigue, but as the show became more popular and viewers began to fall in love with the characters, the writers narrowed their focus to their intimate personal stories, and the the big-picture stuff became extremely perfunctory. It's a very common occurrence when a nerdy genre show gets crazy popular -- see also Lost or Battlestar Galactica.

Quote

I like Sansa being Queen of the North.  I think it fits her character and her character arc well enough, but Arya not using her Faceless Man skills?  What was the freaking point of all that training?  To kill Frey way back in Season 4? (or whatever - long ago).  Bizarre.

Yeah, if Arya's shapeshifting ability was never going to factor into the larger story, the writers should've just had her lose the ability when she left the House of Black and White and had her get revenge on the Freys some other way. It's not like it ever made sense for the God of Death to authorize her use of the faces after she killed one of its acolytes.

In fact, instead of having Arya ping back and forth between "I am No One" and "I'll always be Arya Stark" in the last few seasons, they could've crafted a real arc for her as she figures out a way to avenge her family after losing her Faceless powers, and then rallies the same powers she's honed to take out the Night King. That would've been more genuinely empowering than Arya always triumphing because she's a magical shapeshifting assassin.

3 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

Not true. Barristan Selmy was part of the small council. In fact, when Robert found out Dany was pregnant and wanted to send assassins after her, he and Ned were the only ones who object to it. I don't remember if the show did that, but the show can also fuck off.

The show did not do this. We never saw Barristan on the Small Council in season 1. In fact, it was established in a later season, in dialogue between Selmy and Dany, that Robert kept him off the Small Council because he didn't trust him. This was a clean change the writers made early on, not one of the half-assed bits of fudgery they resorted to in later seasons.

Edited May 20, 2019 by Dev F

[Maximum Taco]

2 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Nothing has changed when they have one family ruling all of Westeros. That's why I hope in a few years when the rest of the Kingdoms realize how useless Bran is a King, they all say they want to be independent too. If he says no then they will know it was nepotism and more wars will break out. 

The only way this would work is if the Kingdoms form a peaceful pact to defend and support each other. 

The problem before Aegon's conquering was that the Kingdoms would be in a constant state of war. The North, Dorne, The Vale and the Iron Islands are unique in the fact that they have easy defenses. 

North - The cold will keep most armies away in wintertime, the land that they need to travel is harsh and barren and difficult to wage war in, and there is a natural choke point to prevent land invasion at Moat Cailin. "Southerners don't do well up here."

Dorne - The desert makes it difficult to wage war, the mountains act as a natural choke point making any land invaders go through the Prince's Pass or the Boneway. I mean when House symbols are the skulls of kings (House Manwoody of Kingsgrave) and House Mottos things like "No Foe Shall Pass" (House Allyrion of Godsgrace) or "We Guard The Way" (House Yronwood of Yronwood) you can tell a region is defensible. Also the Dornish have a natural aversion to being ruled (Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken)

Vale - The mountains make it difficult to wage war, the Eyrie itself seems to be only conquerable if you happen to have a dragon (or other method of airborne assault.) The tribes of the mountain also will probably attack any army that comes through by land, even though they aren't friendly to the Valemen, they still act as a natural defense since the Valemen would just stay behind the Bloody Gate and let the hill tribes hack at their enemies. 

Iron Islands - The seas are a natural defense. But the issue for the Islanders is they need to rely on reaving, or allies in order to support themselves since the Islands are fairly barren (We Do Not Sow). 

Compare this to the Riverlands, Stormlands, Crownlands, Reach and Westerlands, no natural defenses, and most of these nations have several land borders with multiple other countries. They can't operate as independent kingdoms unless they want to be in a constant state of war, or they have allies they can trust. 

[YaddaYadda]

1 hour ago, RobertDeSneero said:

As Lord of Highgarden, Bronn is now rich.  He's basically there to loan money to the Crown.  And maybe to force people to pay their taxes.

Technically no, because Cersei stole all the gold of Highgarden to pay off her debts and buy herself a useless army of sellswords. She also stole the food. So Bronn has a castle and no money, but I'm sure that's no problem for D&D because Bronn will stumble upon a rock, fall into a hole and realize the Tyrells were storing gold and precious gems there.

[Jextella]

 

 

 

14 hours ago, raven said:

Ugh, I hated that whole scene.  Way to continue to prop up Jamie and make Brienne look foolish.

Funny how completely different humans' lenses are.  You say potato, I say potatoe, etc. 

I actually really liked the scene and felt it made Brienne appear even more noble than she already was.  She rose above it all to see the good in Jamie.  She also demonstrated a great deal of empathy by acknowledging Jamie's love for Cersei.

[festivus]

I liked the Brienne scene too. I knew she'd be the one to write his page and despite not liking how his story ended, he did do some good things. Brienne saw a different side of him than others did and I think he wanted to be  that person when he was with her. It ultimately didn't work out for him, because that's the way things are sometimes,  but I have no problem with her seeing the good in her friend. 

[benteen]

I felt like the War against the White Walkers ultimately meant nothing three weeks ago and I feel like Jon's Targaryen heritage meant nothing in the finale.  Particularly this week, it felt like D&D decided to pass the buck back to George and let him handle the stuff with Jon's heritage.  Because clearly it didn't mean much to those two and the battle against the dead didn't mean much either.

I'm curious what Gendry thought about all this in the end.  He had good reason to be loyal to Dany as she save him and his companions form the Walkers last season and raised him to legitimate Lord of Storm's End.  The show hasn't acknowledged that the two of them are also related too.  But at the same time, Gendry grew up in King's Landing.  Specially, he grew up in Flea Bottom and I think he would have been horrified by Dany's actions.  Later on, when the Unsullied held Jon (and bizarrely didn't kill him on the spot), I imagine since he's Arya's brother that also would have won out.

Edited May 20, 2019 by benteen

[Affogato]

6 minutes ago, benteen said:

I felt like the War against the White Walker ultimately meant nothing three weeks ago and I feel like Jon's Targaryen heritage meant nothing in the finale.  Particularly this week, it felt like D&D decided to pass the buck back to George and let him handle the stuff with Jon's heritage.  Because clearly it didn't mean much to those two and the battle against the dead didn't mean much either.

He wasn’t killed by Drogon. He is unable to have a family or winterfell, things he really wants because he was a bastard and wants to belong. He had to kill Dany, who he had a great deal of personal loyalty to, and before that his herotage had ended their relationship. 

I think his heritage featured prominently. 

Bit like Dany it didn’t make him a ‘chosen one’. 

[galaxygirl76]

The more I think about it, the more I think that we ended up exactly where we started, with a King who doesn't want to be doing King stuff and who's influenced by Lannisters. 

So I take it that Tyrion is now lord of Casterly Rock? 

What happened to Nymeria? 

Greyworm and the unsullied will end up dying at Naath like everyone else who goes there. 

No one has made it west and lived the tale so I don't have very high hopes for Arya on that. 

[Tryangle]

11 hours ago, Sentient Meat said:

It's interesting that Arya is heading West, Jon is heading North... was Drogon heading east with Dany's body?  Is Naath to the South?

I'd guess Drogon may head to old Valyria, although there's a chance he'd go to wherever it was between Vaes Dothrak and Qarth that he and his brothers were hatched.

Naath is somewhere south of Essos I believe.

10 hours ago, Oscirus said:

And Bronn should've been there instead of Sam but I'll chalk that up to Sam representing Bronn. 

Bronn wouldn't have had Highgarden at the time, it was only a promise made by Tyrion (who at the time was in no position to grant such a wish), so it made sense for Sam to represent the Reach via House Tarly.

Who may have been missing? the Westerlands - no Lannisters presumably, we don't know of any other Houses in-show that were loyal to the Lannisters besides Clegane. Maybe the no-name reps are filling in that gap.

I don't mind Davos there, if anything the Starks, Gendry or the Vale reps would vouch for his presence.

-

So, it seems like Robin Arryn got himself some of that Giant's Milk? Well done, Tormund.

I want a cut-scene where the Iron Bank shows up to see what they can get out of Bronn.

Theoretically, Bran wouldn't need a Master of Whispers, you know, all 3ER and all that...

[Hanahope]

Ok, I call bullshit on Dany having that many Dothraki and Unsullied still alive after The Long Night, where they showed us virtually no one left alive.

Are the Dorthraki really going to stay in Westeros to roam around and pillage?  Really?  There's no great plains for them to be nomadic like in Essos.  Or was someone taking them back?

And really, Dorn and the Iron Islands are all fine staying in the Six Kingdoms, while the North gets to be on its own?  No way.

And Bron is Master of Coin?  Are you serious?  

Brienne penning a fantasy version of Jamie's life, especially regarding River Run, is ridiculous.

Did we really need the democracy laugh?  There's no way democracy could work in the current culture and that was a stupid suggestion, most likely only to get a laugh.

But I did like Jon's final decision to kill Dany and Drogon's "acting."  But Jon giving up the throne is also a bit unlikely, he has to know that even if he didn't want the throne, he was the only real one who should be there.  He didn't have to give himself up to Grey Worm.

And why does a Night's Watch still need to exist if there's no more threats from Wildlings or the Others? Also, who's going to rebuild the wall with its magic? No one.  So why bother.

So, not terribly satisfying, but I suppose a bad ending is better than no ending at all, thanks to GRRM.

[Tachi Rocinante]

Meh.

I think this is GRRM's ending, from a 10,000 foot level.

However, how he gets there will likely be different due to, oh, i don't know, Lady Stoneheart.  And Young Griff.  And Mance Rayder.

But Martin's writing is spotty at best, so who knows.  It could end up being worse.

[Oscirus]

5 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

So you’re ASSUMING sits government run.

also where does “she wasn’t thinking” come from? And what is with the “young girl” trope? That is straight misogyny. 

I want an explanation, and “she was a girl” does not cut it.

Im assuming nothing. The brothels were previously run by Littlefinger, Littlefinger had no heirs, pretty obvious where they revert to.

Fine, since you insist. From everything we've seen on the show, she was clearly in love with him.  Since you refuse to believe that she was a naïve young girl taken advantage of by a predatory older man feasting on her beauty, then she was a narcissistic bitch who ran away with a married father of two that didn't care about the consequences of her actions. Does that make her actions better because she was in control of them ? 

Edited May 20, 2019 by Oscirus

[Maximum Taco]

Alright it's the cold light of day. 

Almost all those endings for our main characters felt dumb to me. 

Jon - I swear my life and honour to the Night's Watch, for no purpose whatsoever.

He said it himself, why the fuck is there still a Night's Watch? 

No one is going to join the Night's Watch voluntarily now, there's no honor to be won by a bastard or a third son there anymore when they have no duty. 

Quote

"Yo I'm Lord Commander of the Night's Watch" 

"And what does the Night's Watch do now that there are no White Walkers and we have peace with the wildlings?"

"Oh mostly masturbate. And I'm Lord Commander of the Masturbaters."

So it's going to be mostly criminals, and none of those guys are gonna hold to their oaths. And who will hold them to those oaths? No honourable person is gonna become Lord Commander of the Masturbaters. Maybe the Starks will kill any deserters, but the Wildlings aren't going to.

You may as well have just exiled him North of the Wall. That makes a heck of a lot more sense. 

 Arya - "What's West of Westeros?"

DEATH. Death is West of Westeros you colossally dumb fuck. No one has ever come back from the Sunset Sea, you know why? THEY DIED. They did not find a land of milk and honey and decided to stay forever. THEY MOTHERFUCKING DIED. Also you have absolutely NO FUCKING IDEA what you are doing sailing a ship. You have been on a ship exactly twice in your miserable life and now you are making a sea voyage from which NO ONE HAS EVER RETURNED. 

You guys fanwank all you want, Arya is dead. 

Bran - All hail King Bran. 

I'm gonna stick with my head canon that Bran is a magnificent bastard who always wanted to be King, and deliberately used his super powers to remove all obstacles between him and the crown. 

If that's not true, this ending is dumb. 

Sansa - The Queen in The North

Ok. Yeah, this was fine. Sansa was very adamant about what she wanted, no one else wants this job, and she's proven to be good at it. The only good ending. 

Edited May 20, 2019 by Maximum Taco

[Oscirus]

Id still argue that the kingdom is more corruptible than before as its now gonna be easy to buy influence if one wants to be king.  And we already see corruption starting with Bronn as master of coin for no other reason than Tyrion owes him a favor. I don't imagine if D and D did that on purpose but gj if they did.  Probably should've made Yara master of ships and Davos master of laws.  Whether its the king after Bran or the King after that one, one of these kings is just going to go lol, no, it's back to hereditary  and the wheel will be rebuilt.

It makes no sense to grant the North independence, especially since you're starting back up the Night's watch. Who's even going to watch them now? Only reason they were granted it was so Sansa could have that cool crowning scene.  Still feel someone up north will eventually take it from her.

Jon's ending probably works the best. You can see he was sick of dealing with putting everybody else's needs above his, and he got to hang with his peeps without wading into the political pool.

Edited May 20, 2019 by Oscirus

[FemmyV]

12 hours ago, Miles said:

The nights watch makes no sense. The north isn't in the seven/six kingdoms anymore, so how/why would their prisoners be sent there? Also who would fund a now completely useless institution?

Still gotta have a place to send undesirables. OR, it was lip service for Grey Worm's sake, with the council figuring he'd never come back to Westeros and follow up.

12 hours ago, bijoux said:

*The point about Bran's story is very good actually, it just came too late and was too on the nose in its execution. I also conditionally liked how they reframed Dany's actions not as the result of her parentage, but her conquests and getting reaffirmation through them, so kind of buying her own press. Again, makes sense, but much too late and not developed enough. 

On another note, is Gendry completely fucked? Davos would be his best ally, but he's in King's Landing as the Master of Grammar (yeah, he is!) and Gendry is in Storm's End without a clue on how to be a lord. 

The point about Bran's story was straight out of SXSW tech seminars and other tech era marketing/branding — the notion that we're all suckers who prefer a good story to good products (only it's sold with a nicer sound to it).

The lack of Gendry at the trial/council is just another piece of evidence of how badly D and D fucked this up. He wasn't a character to them, just a device.

12 hours ago, Callista said:

I wasn't happy that Arya and Yara's first and only conversation was antagonistic. 

And I don't understand why, during Arya and Jon's farewell, Arya was written as being determined never to go North again, not even to visit Jon.  Some explorers do get to come home from time to time, don't they?

The producers have constantly used Arya, as a fan favorite, in these last seasons as a way to attempt to manipulate viewers into seeing other characters the way they want us to — but ain't so because that's not the way they're writing them. Sansa is the smartest person she knows. Dany is dangerdangerdanger. So now we're supposed to think Yara or anyone else who might defend Dany should just keep their mouths shut.

12 hours ago, TobinAlbers said:

Come to think of it there is a scene missing of Yara being told/processing what Theon did and how he fought hard and saved Bran. If she does in fact  know that I could see that somewhat factoring into her grudgingly supporting Bran as King- her brother died protecting him.

I like Bran and his TER arc and definitely see him as a hero and yet when he answered Tyrion’s question with the whole ‘I wouldn’t have come all this way if I wasn’t going to take the crown’, Issac’s reading of that line was almost chilling as if hinting that the TER had motives/goals/ambitions forethought of his own that were not necessarily altruistic towards the people of Westeros. If this were any other series, I’d think this was set up for a whole new kind of problem for the six kingdoms and the possible the world with Bran the Broken being a whole new level of villain. 

Re: Yara, that's just another example of how the story was rushed. Who gives a shit if there are tons of action-hero-blow-shit-up fans who will be restless and complain about scenes where no one is getting killed and OMG people are sitting around talking?

11 hours ago, Sentient Meat said:

I don't get why Grey Worm had so much power just because of his personal vendetta against Cersei.  I understand that the Unsullied were crucial to saving Westeros, but is the message really that one can have a semi democracy as long as you kiss the military's ass, no matter if they are right or wrong?

Grey Worm commanded an army that could wipe out pretty much all of Westeros, so yeah, he gets a say. We don't know how much of the Vale army survived, and wend down to KL, do we?

11 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

Ygritte kills one dude and Jon leaves her ass.

Melisandre burns one girl and Jon banishes her.

Stannis executes one man by fire and Jon disobeys.

Jon commits treason against Stannis by switching babies. 

Daenerys kills THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS of people and Jon's like "but I luvre her" and even then he still agonizes over whether it was the right thing to do. 

Dany burns an entire city and he's like... IDK TYRION. SHE'S MY QUEEN. She said she was going to take over more cities and Jon just stares like, a dumb cult member.

I can understand Jon going into self-imposed exile due to the guilt. But Jon expresses no guilt for his role in enabling Dany's war crimes. Only Tyrion acknowledged that Dany did wrong, out of his own volition. Jon was more concerned about killing a murderous tyrant than the thousands killed in front of him.

In one of the S07 BTS vids, D and D said that telling Jon about his true parents shook his whole world, more or less. That's another thing that we weren't shown because the season was so fucking rushed.

The worst thing in that is Jon's utter failure to step up in the moments when the Lannister soldiers surrendered, and take charge of what was going on, "My Queen ... King's Landing is yours!" If Dany had then proceeded to burn everything, it would have at least given some real justification.

10 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

Jon greeting Ghost was everything. Let the healing begin. I expect happy Jon and Tormund fanfiction.

Please let it be fanfiction where Tormund, like Edmure, isn't 96% used for comic relief.

10 hours ago, Oscirus said:

They're talking about bringing back Brothels, so I assume its government run. Also doubles as a way to have that honeycomb call back.

Considering Dany pretty much wiped out the entire population of KL, that means there's hardly anyone there for the labor pool, to do the physical work of any rebuilding. So they have to find a way to get big strong men there, to do the labor for them. Brothels is the lure. It's also, as we know from Littlefinger and Varys, a great way to have blackmail material on your enemies and reluctant friends.

5 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

I don't think the wheel was really broken, they chose a King that can't have kids, which would've been the same for Dany. Its basically the same system, the rich get to chose and rule and they just gave all the power to one family, The Starks. 

The council is made up of a Hand that is partially responsible for what happened, a corruptible cutthroat is the Master of Coin, Sam is a maester with no chains. I'll give them Davos, he's the best out of the bunch. And Brieanne who is probably that surviving Knight. That looks the same old to me. As evident with their talk about funding brothels instead of getting food and ships. To the small folk probably not much as changed, the rich lords still dont care about them. Then they have a King that that doesn't make decisions and can just roll his eyes in the back of his head when he doesn't want to listen to people. 

Yep. I don't see much difference between Bran and Aerys and Henry VI, who Aerys was modeled after, IIRC.

4 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

He swore (again) to take no wife and father no children.  

And yet, Sam has a wife and a child. I will fanwank some sort of sex partner/companion for Jon, if not a kid. He didn't want one when he thought he was a bastard, because he didn't want to risk foisting that legacy on a kid, I can't see him wanting to foist the Targaryen legacy, either.

4 hours ago, benteen said:

Disappointing.  Disappointing end to a disappointing season.  This seemed to be a rush job by D&D and without any more source material to go on, they didn’t have the talent to pull it off.  I’m not letting GRRM off the hook.  He got famous and lazy and lost interest in writing the story and we’re left with this.

...

I agree though…if GRRM told D&D this, why did they have Bran off-camera for an entire season?

One of my favorite moments tonight though was when they all started to laugh when Sam suggested letting the people decide (including Sansa which doesn’t surprise me at all). 

GRRM is a literary fraud, AFAIC, and will be until he gets off his ass and finishes this. And it was his fraud in allowing HBO to begin filming before the books were completed. I'll also lay some of it on the books' publishers/editors as well, for not hounding him for completion.

I felt like Royce's joke was directed at the viewers. Haha! You thought we were going to break that wheel, didn't you? I find some comfort in telling myself that Jon going off with the wildlings, and establishing a more democratic society up North, with no need to escape their climate or other local boogeyman, will eventually lead to a North that is far more advanced than the rest of Westeros, which is going to continue to be constrained by kings and lords who need to get constant rim service.

3 hours ago, shrewd.buddha said:

So, Bran bears no responsibility for setting the whole tragic chain of events in motion? And never sharing any of his omniscient  information in an attempt to save innocent people? He served up Jon Snow as the fall guy - the supposed rightful heir - and Jon gets shipped off to the north to never marry or have children. 

Bran and Sam ended up doing pretty well for themselves after just a few weeks of getting the Rightful King rumor mill started. 

And lastly, Tyrion  pushing Bran as leader because, instead of gold or weapons,   stories and storytellers are the most reliable means of binding people together? ...what a BS way to try to suck your own dicks, D&D...

Yep. I don't have a problem with where everyone wound up in the end: I'm okay with Bran as king. I'm okay with Sansa as Lady of the North. I'm okay with Tyrion as Hand. I'm okay with Jon going North, and Dany being dead. We have been prepped for this end since Season 2, I feel.

What I'm not okay with, is how we got this end. Everything was rushed. The writers constantly relied on visual cues and other short cuts: shots of Bran in his wheelchair looking like Bran on a throne; Dany, all in black, with dragon wings and her hairdo styled to make her look even more like a dragon; "The Bells" sending her to a psychotic break. That's not storytelling! That's a music video version of storytelling.

Edited May 20, 2019 by FemmyV

[domina89]

So not that it really matters now, but anyone have any guesses as to the line from book one that hinted at/predicted the ending?  

[mrspidey]

15 hours ago, Sentient Meat said:

So his brother is King of Westeros, his sister is Queen of the North, his other sister is Christopher Columbus... and Jon Snow still has to stay with the Night Watch? 

Pretty sure he was on his way to become King beyond the Wall there at the end. Good ending for him. House Stark basically rules ALL of Westeros now. 

[MadameKillerB]

4 hours ago, benteen said:

There was a rumor recently that one of the series HBO was considering was a sequel series involving an adult Arya is a character, maybe set in Braavos or Essos?  Don't know how true that is but if they did a series with Arya exploring the lands of the Sunset Sea, I would definitely watch it.  I've always found that fascinating, the lands that aren't in the map.  What's been shown on A World of Ice and Fire maps is probably just a small portion of a much larger world.  I'd love to see that explored.  Maybe Arya will find the descendants of the Stark fleet that was lost out there centuries earlier.

I'd actually like this as a slick animated series for adults. I think it would be interesting as long as it isn't too children-oriented in the way it's written. Just a thought.

[stagmania]

1 hour ago, benteen said:

I felt like the War against the White Walkers ultimately meant nothing three weeks ago and I feel like Jon's Targaryen heritage meant nothing in the finale.  Particularly this week, it felt like D&D decided to pass the buck back to George and let him handle the stuff with Jon's heritage.  Because clearly it didn't mean much to those two and the battle against the dead didn't mean much either.

Kind of the ultimate fuck you, to steal his biggest reveal but then refuse to actually write it into the narrative in a meaningful way. 

Quote

I'm curious what Gendry thought about all this in the end.  He had good reason to be loyal to Dany as she save him and his companions form the Walkers last season and raised him to legitimate Lord of Storm's End.  The show hasn't acknowledged that the two of them are also related too.  But at the same time, Gendry grew up in King's Landing.  Specially, he grew up in Flea Bottom and I think he would have been horrified by Dany's actions.  Later on, when the Unsullied held Jon (and bizarrely didn't kill him on the spot), I imagine since he's Arya's brother that also would have won out.

That council/vote scene didn't work for me at all because I felt so many perspectives went unrepresented and no one called Tyrion or the Starks on their bullshit. I would have liked to see Yara making a stronger case for taking treason against Dany seriously and Gendry wrestling with his loyalty to the woman who raised him up versus his empathy for the smallfolk, along with the other houses claiming independence for their regions. There was so much opportunity there and they just squandered it. 

[Maximum Taco]

49 minutes ago, domina89 said:

So not that it really matters now, but anyone have any guesses as to the line from book one that hinted at/predicted the ending?  

Maybe Ned's response when Arya asks if Bran will ever be a knight?

Quote

"No," Ned said. He saw no use in lying to her. "Yet someday he may be the lord of a great holdfast and sit in the king's council. He might raise castles like Brandon the Builder, or sail a ship across the Sunset Sea, or enter your mother's Faith and become the High Septon." But he will never run beside his wolf again, he thought with a sadness too deep for words, or lie with a woman, or hold his own son in his arms.

Bran is the lord of a great holdfast, he will likely raise the Red Keep again, and he does sit on the King's Council as King. 

Arya is sailing a ship across the Sunset Sea

If Rickon doesn't die in the books perhaps he will become High Septon? 

[benteen]

26 minutes ago, stagmania said:

Kind of the ultimate fuck you, to steal his biggest reveal but then refuse to actually write it into the narrative in a meaningful way. 

I don't consider it stealing because George had his chance for two decades to reveal this and hasn't gotten the job done, either because of his "gardening" writing style or because he's just lost interest (I suspect this one). 

It annoys me that we never see Jon ever come to grips with his being a Targaryen.  This story literally could have played out the same way without the reveal.  That's how unimportant it was to D&D and the story they were telling.  They were able to reveal this and then did nothing with it...pretty much punting it back to GRRM to develop it in a meaningful way.  One I don't think we're ever going to see written in print.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, domina89 said:

So not that it really matters now, but anyone have any guesses as to the line from book one that hinted at/predicted the ending?  

It wasn't the ending per se, but the very last scene.

In AGOT, Jon promises Tyrion that if Benjen doesn't come back, he and Ghost will go out and find him. And Tyrion mentally wonders in response "And who will go find you?"

The last scene of the show is Jon going beyond the Wall, possibly never to return.

Edited May 20, 2019 by Eyes High

[Colorful Mess]

1 hour ago, domina89 said:

So not that it really matters now, but anyone have any guesses as to the line from book one that hinted at/predicted the ending?  

“When you find yourself in bed with an ugly woman, the best thing to do is close your eyes and get on with it,” he declared. “Waiting won’t make the maid any prettier. Kiss her and be done with it.”
“Kiss her?” Ser Barristan repeated, aghast.
“A steel kiss,” said Littlefinger.
Robert turned to face his Hand. “Well, there it is, Ned. You and Selmy stand alone on this matter. The only question that remains is, who can we find to kill her?”

...

“He pushed back his chair and stood. “Do it yourself, Robert. The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. Look her in the eyes before you kill her. See her tears, hear her last words. You owe her that much at least.”

[Colorful Mess]

Jon was not entirely innocent of the history of the realm; his own maester had seen to that. “That was the year of the Great Council,” he said. “The lords passed over Prince Aerion’s infant son and Prince Daeron’s daughter and gave the crown to Aegon.”
“Yes and no. First they offered it, quietly, to Aemon. And quietly he refused. The gods meant for him to serve, not to rule, he told them. He had sworn a vow and would not break it, though the High Septon himself offered to absolve him. Well, no sane man wanted any blood of Aerion’s on the throne, and Daeron’s girl was a lackwit besides being female, so they had no choice but to turn to Aemon’s younger brother—Aegon, the Fifth of His Name. Aegon the Unlikely, they called him, born the fourth son of a fourth son. Aemon knew, and rightly, that if he remained at court those who disliked his brother’s rule would seek to use him, so he came to the Wall. And here he has remained, while his brother and his brother’s son and his son each reigned and died in turn, until Jaime Lannister put an end to the reign of dragonkings"