S08.E02: A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms

[SueB]

New to this particular forum. *waves*

This really was a "7 years in the making' episode.  I loved all of it.  

Favorite scene: EVERYONE in the battle plan room.  Suprised Gendry and Gilli didn't make it.

Strategic thoughts:
- You really should work on how NOT to have your army turn to the NK army when they die.  That's a real problem.
- Sure seems like the opening credits are a hint on how the war will go (i.e. the NK won't be defeated until Kings Landing).
- The NK's motivations seem pretty much 'kill all living and then he doesn't give a shit'.  I would have thought he'd want more than just 'stab, stab, die, die' as his strategic objective

Bran spills the best tea.   

[AshleyN]

1 hour ago, domina89 said:

I don't think Brienne will die.  I think Brienne's arc is leading her to finish writing Jaime's page in the White Book, if it still exists at the end of the series.  I think Jaime will die heroically and Brienne will be the one to see it and record the truth so everyone will know of his sacrifice.

My initial reaction was "Brienne is totally dead", but the more I think about it, the more I'm coming around to this idea. Everyone thinks that Jaime has to survive to confront or kill Cersei, but I don't know if that's really true. The fact that his disillusionment with her is complete and he finally broke away from her could be enough to complete that arc, he's apologized to Bran for his original sin (in the show at least) and he's now at Winterfell fighting for all of the living. Him "dying in the arms of the woman he loves," the woman who reminded him how to be a true knight, would actually be a beautiful end for the character.

Whatever the case, I think one of them is biting it for sure.

Edited April 24, 2019 by AshleyN

[Clanstarling]

3 hours ago, AshleyN said:

My initial reaction was "Brienne is totally dead", but the more I think about it, the more I'm coming around to this idea. Everyone thinks that Jaime has to survive to confront or kill Cersei, but I don't know if that's really true. The fact that his disillusionment with her is complete and he finally broke away from her could be enough to complete that arc, he's apologized to Bran for his original sin (in the show at least) and he's now at Winterfell fighting for all of the living. Him "dying in the arms of the woman he loves," the woman who reminded him how to be a true knight, would actually be a beautiful end for the character.

Whatever the case, I think one of them is biting it for sure.

I have never believed Jaime loves Breinne, at least not in a romantic way. With any other character, I would say he loves her like a sister.

He does hold her in high regard and respects her.

Edited April 24, 2019 by Clanstarling

[SueB]

I think Jamie adores Brienne but that's not the same thing as romantic love.  He would die for her, he wants her respect, he looks at her like the person he wants to be.  Could it be romantic love?  Sure.  But he's got a reeeealy warped idea of love in his relationship wtih Cersei.  Not sure he can break that mold. 

[CletusMusashi]

On 4/22/2019 at 6:26 PM, Luckylyn said:

I think Jaime believes he doesn’t deserve Brienne so I think he loves her from afar but hesitates to turn their friendship into romance.  If Jaime is who Brienne wants she’s going to have to be the one to make a move.

Arya can give her some tips.

"I'm not your sister. Take off your own bloody pants."

Edited April 25, 2019 by CletusMusashi

[izabella]

57 minutes ago, SueB said:

I think Jamie adores Brienne but that's not the same thing as romantic love.  He would die for her, he wants her respect, he looks at her like the person he wants to be.  Could it be romantic love?  Sure.  But he's got a reeeealy warped idea of love in his relationship wtih Cersei.  Not sure he can break that mold. 

I agree.  Cersei is the only woman Jamie has ever loved.  He still loves her. 

[rmontro]

3 hours ago, SueB said:

The NK's motivations seem pretty much 'kill all living and then he doesn't give a shit'.  I would have thought he'd want more than just 'stab, stab, die, die' as his strategic objective

Agree with that, the Night King's motivations, finally revealed, were not exactly overwhelming.  They tried to make them sound a little more in depth than they really are.

Then Bran tells everyone that the Night King has his mark on him, so he knows where he is at all times, and can track him.  Um, that would have been good information to know before now, Bran. 

[LadyPenelope]

3 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I have never believed Jaime loves Breinne, at least not in a romantic way. With any other character, I would say he loves her like a sister. He does hold her in high regard and respects her.

🤣ignore the stray gif. Couldn't delete it on my phone.

I always think about this old Arrested Westeros photo, which I still think is the most accurate summary of Jaime/Brienne I have ever seen.

[GodsBeloved]

3 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I have never believed Jaime loves Breinne, at least not in a romantic way. With any other character, I would say he loves her like a sister.

He does hold her in high regard and respects her.

That might not be a good thing

[RedHawk]

1 hour ago, rmontro said:

Agree with that, the Night King's motivations, finally revealed, were not exactly overwhelming.  They tried to make them sound a little more in depth than they really are.

Then Bran tells everyone that the Night King has his mark on him, so he knows where he is at all times, and can track him.  Um, that would have been good information to know before now, Bran. 

I laughed because it seems like Bran keeps morphing into the 3ER just in time to impart knowledge that would have been even more useful, say, 24-48 hours or days earlier.  Wonder what he’s going to drop right before everyone’s first sighting of the NK? “Oh, by the way...”

Edited April 24, 2019 by RedHawk

[steelyis]

52 minutes ago, rmontro said:

Agree with that, the Night King's motivations, finally revealed, were not exactly overwhelming.  They tried to make them sound a little more in depth than they really are.

His motivation seems horrific to me. The Night King is comparable to a nuclear war, or a large asteroid hitting the Earth in our time. Even then we'd have a better chance of saving the history of our civilization than Westeros if The Night King wins.

Bran and The Citadel are basically Westeros's internet/only library; when they go all the accumulated knowledge of Westeros will been gone forever. The Night King not only wants to commit genocide of every living being in Westeros, and possibly beyond, he also wants to commit the genocide of their memory. Thousands of years of history, hundreds of generations of families, countless individuals, erased; it will be like none of it ever existed.

54 minutes ago, rmontro said:

Then Bran tells everyone that the Night King has his mark on him, so he knows where he is at all times, and can track him.  Um, that would have been good information to know before now, Bran. 

It would've been a coin toss if they believed him.

These people need the truth to literally walk up and slap them in the face twice before they believe it's real.

[Uncle JUICE]

23 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

I laughed because it seems like Bran keeps morphing into the 3ER just in time to impart knowledge that would have been even more useful, say, 24-48 hours or days earlier.  Wonder what he’s going to drop right before everyone’s first sighting of the NK? “Oh, by the way...”

Itll be "good luck in the battle...also watch out for all those bones in the crypt, I mean configured you guys knew because you were all saying how safe it was, I mean you know that's where i escaped from the iron born. I have to ge rehearse my final meme face now byeeeeee."

I am honestly dreading this episode. I dont want anyone outside of the night king, bran and then to go.  Ughhhhh I hate that I'm certain brienne is going. 

[One Tough Cookie]

OK, I'm just gonna say it,so hate me.  Cut off Brands arm that was marked by the N K. He's no longer the WW's GPS signal.

{quickly retreats from the rotten tomatoes and nasty comments.............

[MissLucas]

The way Bran's all-seeing bran is wired or rather warped it's no wonder Isaac Hempstead Wright plans to study neuroscience!

[MrsR]

Jaime's love for Brienne is a riff on courtly love. He has become a knight errant and she is his version of a maiden fair. Not a damsel in distress at this moment but she was at one time.

 Go and watch Arya and Gendry's scene and then Brienne's knighting. One of them has no music at all. The other has a rich swelling of violins. So which one is a love scene?

Jaime performed a romantic gesture.

 Brilliant staging and storytelling.

[catrice2]

When Dany says the dead are already here she could be referring to the dead in the crypts and FINALLY realizing what all of us have said...the crypts are not the best place against people who are dead.....no doubt anyone in the crypts is done for. 

[Hook75]

On 4/21/2019 at 10:14 PM, Growsonwalls said:

Would Dany really kill Jon so that the Iron Throne stays with her though? That's the question. If so I have a feeling Emilia Clarke is going to get some hate-fanfic for the rest of her life ...

It sure feels like it. I'm thinking Jon will end up killing the "mad queen".

[Growsonwalls]

24 minutes ago, MrsR said:

Jaime's love for Brienne is a riff on courtly love. He has become a knight errant and she is his version of a maiden fair. Not a damsel in distress at this moment but she was at one time.

 Go and watch Arya and Gendry's scene and then Brienne's knighting. One of them has no music at all. The other has a rich swelling of violins. So which one is a love scene?

Jaime performed a romantic gesture.

 Brilliant staging and storytelling.

Ok, I think one of the things GoT has been pretty good at conveying despite how action-packed and plot driven the shows are is that there are many types of very deep love that are not necessarily romantic/sexual. I don't think Jaime wants Brienne in a sexual way. His primary sexual bond has always been Cersei. I think Jaime respects Brienne and loves her as a person. This isn't the same thing as wanting to hop into bed with her. It's also a testament to the chemistry of the two actors that their relationship is so heavily shipped. 

Other examples of non-sexual love: Sansa and Theon. Are these two ever going to be romantic with each other? Considering Theon's lack of appendages and Sansa's severely traumatic sexual experiences, no. But Theon gathered up the courage to shed the "Reek" identity, he helped Sansa escape Ramsay Bolton, and Sansa will always love Theon for their shared experiences together. Doesn't mean Sansa is wanting to jump into bed with Theon. 

[screamin]

35 minutes ago, catrice2 said:

When Dany says the dead are already here she could be referring to the dead in the crypts and FINALLY realizing what all of us have said...the crypts are not the best place against people who are dead.....no doubt anyone in the crypts is done for. 

And it would be such an idiotic way to go, if so...pairing that with the showrunners' decision to make Jon and Dany responsible for getting the NK across the Wall by giving him a dragon, any success of theirs after that will look like failing upward.

Though it would be funny if there was one wight who was almost certainly not given the honor of being buried in the crypts, but was undoubtedly interred nearby, is fresh enough to credibly move around, and knows the area well enough to lead the other wights of the NK's army to the crypt...undead LF. If Sophie's last scene is her facing him - well, that would be irony, of a lame sort.

[bubble sparkly]

Yeah, I hope whatever inevitably goes wrong in the crypts is something along the lines of the wights / WW finding a secret way in rather than dead Starks rising up out of their tombs or whatever.

[rmontro]

4 hours ago, RedHawk said:

I laughed because it seems like Bran keeps morphing into the 3ER just in time to impart knowledge that would have been even more useful, say, 24-48 hours or days earlier. 

I think they should take Bran and park him right down inside the Red Keep somehow and lead the Night King right to Cersei's @ss.  She would have no choice but commit her troops to the defense then.

4 hours ago, steelyis said:

His motivation seems horrific to me. The Night King is comparable to a nuclear war, or a large asteroid hitting the Earth in our time. Even then we'd have a better chance of saving the history of our civilization than Westeros if The Night King wins.

That's a good way of looking at him, like a force of nature.  A much more dangerous version of Jack Frost or whatever.  But there were a lot of intricate theories floating around on the net on what it was that he really wanted, and killing everybody to wipe out all memory seems a bit mundane in comparison (People can look those up if they want, some of them are pretty out there).

1 hour ago, catrice2 said:

When Dany says the dead are already here she could be referring to the dead in the crypts and FINALLY realizing what all of us have said...the crypts are not the best place against people who are dead.....no doubt anyone in the crypts is done for. 

I've been trying to remember this, but IIRC only the recent dead usually rise to fight with the Night King so far, yes?  As he increases in strength, I suppose it's possible that he might start raising some of the older dead, but I'm guessing that won't happen.  Who knows, though?

[AshleyN]

8 minutes ago, rmontro said:

I've been trying to remember this, but IIRC only the recent dead usually rise to fight with the Night King so far, yes?  As he increases in strength, I suppose it's possible that he might start raising some of the older dead, but I'm guessing that won't happen.  Who knows, though?

We've seen wights that were just skeletons at least once before, but it looked horrible (Jojen's unintentionally funny death scene) so I can't say I'm eager to see it again.

So yeah, I'm also not fond of the "Night King raises the dead in the crypts" idea. Not only would most of the dead (who've been down there for centuries) be either mostly or fully decomposed, but there's also the question of how exactly are they supposed to get out of those heavy-ass tombs? I don't recall anything that would indicate wights have super strength.

But the bigger issue, as has been pointed out, is that it makes literally every person on Team Winterfell look like a complete idiot. Like, NOBODY would have thought to raise this issue beforehand?

[GatorDeb]

Read an interesting theory on another board.  That last shot was the NK in front of KL and about to take Cersei by surprise and obliterate her and then head over with new zombies to rejoin the battle started by the lesser zombies up north.  Please let this be true.

[Andromeda]

13 hours ago, arjumand said:

Yes, that's the one. At least, that's what the people who analyse this stuff on youtube are telling me!

Also, I just looked at a map of Westeros online, and the lake is supposed to be above KL, but I agree on the credits it looks like it's below (also, they move really fast).

Anyway, if it's really the God's Eye, that sort of island in it is the Isle of Faces, where the Children of the Forest made the pact with the First Men (to stop wiping each other out). Ever since the Night King started making spiral designs with body parts (human or animal), and we saw that overhead shot of the spiral when the Night King was made, people have been theorizing that what the NK really wants is to kill his creators - and everyone else, of course. But he really hates those little buggers.

I think the lake is in the right place,  but the camera was coming down from the north. 

Also,  if anyone is wondering,  the sphere thing in the title sequence is an armillary.  I have a small one in my garden. 

Edited April 25, 2019 by Andromeda
Armillaries rule

[ulkis]

10 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I have never believed Jaime loves Breinne, at least not in a romantic way. With any other character, I would say he loves her like a sister.

He does hold her in high regard and respects her.

He walked away from Tyrion because he heard/sensed that she was down below and stared at her with laser intense focus while she walked around in the courtyard. He loves her.

10 hours ago, SueB said:

I think Jamie adores Brienne but that's not the same thing as romantic love.  He would die for her, he wants her respect, he looks at her like the person he wants to be.  Could it be romantic love?  Sure.  But he's got a reeeealy warped idea of love in his relationship wtih Cersei.  Not sure he can break that mold. 

I agree with this as well.

[ulkis]

14 hours ago, AshleyN said:

Re: the Night King/White Walkers, I posted this in the other thread, but I think of them as more of a natural disaster, or the commonly cited metaphor for climate change. While I admit to being curious about how they came to exist, I've never really been interested in them having specific motives or anything because to me the story isn't about them, but about how the human characters react to them. They're a force of destruction that can't be reasoned or negotiated with, but for the most part people have been too caught up in their power games or petty personal feuds to see or respond to the threat to all humanity that they represent.

It's why I'm kind of torn on how I want the next episode to go: while I like the poetic aspect of them being defeated at Winterfell, and I can see why the writers would want to return to the Game of Thrones for the end, I think the themes they represent are basically lost if they never make it further South than Winterfell and people like Cersei  never have to face any consequences for ignoring them.

While I get that aspect of the wights, on a tv show it comes across a bit too deus ex-machina for me, like "oh how do we wrap this up . . . uh, snow monsters!!" So I'd rather they return to the politics. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

2 hours ago, rmontro said:

I think they should take Bran and park him right down inside the Red Keep somehow and lead the Night King right to Cersei's @ss.  She would have no choice but commit her troops to the defense then.

Hahahaha, now I really wish this had happened!

18 hours ago, One Tough Cookie said:

That's EXACTLY what I thought.  I imagined him in his home with Gilly, closing a  book and saying to his children "and that's the way way my children your uncle saved the 7 Kingdoms"!

Now I'm imagining the final episode ending with a Bob Sagat voiceover telling his two bored kids that's how he met their mother.

17 hours ago, Constantinople said:

It is odd that Tyrion trusted Cersei now when he didn't trust her in Season 2 when he was the acting Hand.  Back then he blackmailed Lancel into spying on her for him because he knew he couldn't trust her to be honest with him about her preparations to defend King's Landing from Stannis. If he didn't trust her then, I don't know why he should trust her now.

Tyrion is practical and he saw what was beyond the wall. People tend to believe that other people are generally like them (liars think other people are liars, that kind of thing) and I think that his sense of self-preservation was enough to make him believe that Cersei would not want the Night King to march into King's Landing and kill her. He thought that she would be like Jon and be willing to put the good of the realm above her personal feelings and try to do something to keep the White Walkers from slaughtering everyone. He vastly underestimated how petty she is. She would let everyone in Westeros die just to spite him and Jaime.

14 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

We saw a tiny bit of butt as well.  Not that any of that offended me.  The actress is an adult, the character is nearly an adult, and it was good to see a woman take control of her sexuality on this show.  (Not that I'm one of those who complained about rape on the show either, since it certainly fit in with the society depicted.)

I'm not 100% sure on how much time has passed and what her exact age is now, but I'm pretty sure that Arya is now older than Sansa and Dany were when they got married (and she's definitely older than Tommen was when he married Margaery), which is one of the many reasons why I was totally fine with the sex scene. Sansa, Dany, and Tommen were forced to marry (and have sex with their new spouses) when they were pretty young. Arya, on the other hand, got to choose to do this. Even though Sansa ended up not marrying Joffrey, she was very young when they were officially betrothed and she was definitely expected to have sex with him if he had married her instead of Margaery.

[paramitch]

This episode was so beautiful, and this thread was so much fun. Kudos to everyone for giving me so much to think about! As I wait in terror for next week because AGHGHGHGH, I don't want any of these people to die.

Just a few thoughts and observations to add:

To echo a few others here, can someone help me understand why it's a given that Dany has a traitor in her party? I know most are assuming (1) a traitor and (2) that it's Varys, I just don't understand what Varys's motivation would be. He above all people is working for the people of Westeros; he wants the Iron Throne to be a place of justice. So I don't see why on earth he'd be reporting to Cersei...?

I'm so excited for Arya to use her weapon! And loved the little moments of grace she got with the Hound and Beric too (and loved that the Hound reminded her that he had fought and basically died for her). I also loved everything Arya and Gendry here, especially Arya's agency and maturity in choosing to sleep with Gendry (and I thought the scene was handled tastefully and that Maisie looked lovely). Tomorrow the world may end and everyone may die, so... It's what people do.

I was surprised to feel a bit sorry for Dany here. I find her moral relativism generally tiresome, so I hated the way she began here (her coldly reciting her father's assassination like he was some kindly king brutally killed by a villain had me facepalming). But as the story progressed here, I did feel pity for her. She was so isolated, and every attempt to connect went badly. (I loved her scene with Sansa, as well as the final scene with Jon. I think she's going to realize Jon does not want her throne, and that she misjudged him in that moment.)

Sansa's moments with Theon were so beautiful and real. And I was so touched not just by the embrace, but by the revelation that they were spending that last evening simply being together and sharing a meal. Theon's redemption arc has been one of the most moving aspects of the show for me, and beautifully acted by Alfie Allen (who I've always felt is one of the best unsung actors on GoT).

Speaking of Theon: Why do the vast majority assume Theon's feelings for Sansa cannot be romantic? I'm not saying they are, but there is definitely deep feeling there. And regardless of what he's missing, he would still absolutely be able to please a lover if he wanted to. It's just odd to me that his feelings are assumed to be platonic because of, er, mechanics.

Meanwhile, Brienne's shining moment here had me in tears (that beautiful, tearful final smile! GC is fantastic), but then she always affects me really powerfully. I agree with those who do think she and Jaime are romantic, but in that ancient, idealized and "courtly love" manner. I think it's essential for Jaime, in fact, that it be this kind of idealized thing, precisely because his relationship with Cersei was so toxic, this kind of very base sexual narcissism.

So of course Jaime's face killed me this episode because he was basically giving Brienne heart-eyes every single time he looked at her and she was either oblivious or too wounded by her own experiences to believe he could actually care for her (which makes it all even sadder). But the arc of it here was beautiful -- it begins with her wondering why he's not insulting her, and ends with her having zero doubts about his regard for her.

To me, this entire episode was a full circle for Brienne/Jaime, which is why I'm devastated for next week already because there is no way they are both surviving. It began with Brienne declaring unspoken love for Jaime (in vouching for him before the nobles), and with Jaime replying to Brienne, in every possible way, that he loves her in return: By pledging to fight beside her, at her command (unspoken: to die there, as well). And by giving her the one thing she wants more than anything in the world—equality, service, and acknowledgment of her courage and honor.

Because he doesn't just love her, that's easy for Jaime. And we were even reminded that love isn't necessary holy to Jaime when Tyrion noted that he had once loved Cersei even knowing her capacity for evil. But Brienne is the flip side of that coin for Jaime, a love that is based in admiration and respect. In knighting her before that lovely group of cheering men, and doing so with all the formal elements of the ritual, he gave her, once and for all, the knowledge of how much she means to him, and he did it publicly. The big, shy girl who was once shamed by a group of men for being ugly is now cheered by a group of men (knights, princes and squires!) for her courage, honor and ability.

I love Tormund to death, but he has no chance next to this. Brienne has always loved princely types (if men of honor) and courtly romance; it's why she loved Renly then, and why she loves Jaime now. Rough, dirty, ale-drenched Tormund, as adorable as he is, just perplexes and repels her.

And yeah: I'm expecting poor Brienne to die next week, I just hope she gets a kiss from Jaime before she does so. (sheepish, sorry/notsorry)

As far as the Death Pool goes, in addition to Brienne being toast next week, my money's also on Beric, Edd, Gilly, Gendry, and Lyanna (because seeing her zombified would be such a gut punch). And poor Theon, defending Bran and getting his redemption. I kind of think Jorah will live, and that it'll be poor little Lyanna who dies (and whom he possibly frees from undeath by using his sword on her).

I also agree with those worried about the Vault as a place of Certain Death, not safety. If that's the case, then poor Gilly, Tyrion and Sam (and the little girl Davos comforted!) are all likely toast -- as are, potentially, Sansa, Varys and the other nobles. Wouldn't Missandei be down there as well? In which case, it may be a surprise situation where Grey Worm lives and she doesn't. What if Arya has to kill not just an undead Gendry but an undead Sansa?  (AGHGHGHG I WANT THEM ALL TO BE OKAY!)

Anyway. This is easily my favorite episode of GoT ever. It was basically a full hour of some of the show's best characters simply enjoying each other's company, and telling their companions they loved them. The fact that I feel so deeply for many of them (and dread losing them) speaks, for me, to how good the episode really was.

[GraceK]

1 hour ago, paramitch said:

was surprised to feel a bit sorry for Dany here. I find her moral relativism generally tiresome, so I hated the way she began here (her coldly reciting her father's assassination like he was some kindly king brutally killed by a villain had me facepalming). But as the story progressed here, I did feel pity for her. She was so isolated, and every attempt to connect went badly

Yeah because you seem to have feelings. Your supposed to feel sorry for her . This article sums things up nicely 

https://slate.com/culture/2019/04/game-of-thrones-daenerys-unfit-to-rule-plot-trap.html

She is totally isolated this season. She’s coming to the North with two massive armies and Dragons to help defend them and she is despised. Say what you  want about Northern Independence, or what She “ owes” people if she wants to a queen. Regardless, she is showing up with a massive advantage to HELP. And what are fans saying? That her armies really mean nothing because the NK killed a dragon, it doesn’t matter that she’s showing up because if she wants to be queen she has too because she it owes to her people , but then again, she’s only doing it for Jon so it doesn’t count and she’s a bitch who doesn’t care about mankind , only about  her boyfriend...etc. Sansa is seen as a political genius for looking at the bigger picture and planning for the future, AKA the North after the war is over . Dany however is looked at as a power hungry bitch for being concerned about the Iron Throne after the war is over..... um,  hypocrisy much? 

One thing I am looking toward next episode is finally seeing the  North fucking wiped out by the AOTD. Nothing will bring me so much joy as to see those racist assholes die by the numbers . The way they have reacted to Missandei, the way they have treated Dany...I will laugh so hard to see how they respond when they finally have to face the DEAD and see how serious  the  threat is and how they should have been kissing Danys ass for bring two armies to help.

Edited April 25, 2019 by GraceK
Typos

[GatorDeb]

On 4/21/2019 at 7:50 PM, Popples said:

I think it's the fur. I remember Pixar talking about how difficult it is to make any type of hair in CGI. But, yeah it's odd that they can make fictional animals look so great, but ones based on real animals don't look right.

That's because you have no frame of reference on what a dragon looks like, but everyone knows what a wolf/dog looks life.

[Cheezwiz]

On 4/22/2019 at 2:58 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Sansa seemed a bit cold to Tyrion last week so it was nice to hear her say this week that he had been nothing but kind to her.

This is something that has always irked me about Sansa. She's quite happy to tell other people that Tyrion was kind to her during their brief sham marriage (she's said this several times before to others) but she's always really rude to him in person.  I don't get it. She was mean to him while they were supposedly married (when she realized he was a decent fellow, she could have acknowledged the awkwardness of the situation, made a deal to  survive together, and shaken hands as friends). Instead, when greeted by him again at Winterfell, she's snotty as ever. I don't get her, but then I've never been  a Sansa fan despite the many traumas she's endured. Snotty and petulant seems to be her default.

[lorbeer]

8 hours ago, AshleyN said:

But the bigger issue, as has been pointed out, is that it makes literally every person on Team Winterfell look like a complete idiot. Like, NOBODY would have thought to raise this issue beforehand?

This is what bothers me. They should know better. Especially those who fought white walkers and know what they can do.

[terrymct]

On 4/23/2019 at 8:03 PM, BitterApple said:

I agree with the above comments that a lot of support players are likely to die next week.

I'm thinking Jorah, Greyworm and Brienne are in the most immediate danger. IIRC, they're fighting outside the walls of Winterfell which means they're going to face the full brunt of the Night King's forces. Theon is definitely going to die, because what better way to go than fighting for the boy you betrayed? 

Also, Edd, Pod and Beric are pretty expendable. They're not crucial to any of the main plotlines, so they could be on the chopping block as well. 

I can see Tormund surviving for the purposes of future comic relief. I believe all the Starks, Dany, the Hound, Tyrion and Jamie will make it. 

Of course, D&D could be setting us up for the shock of our lives, so who knows...

...and which of the characters who die will we then see rise up to fight for the other side.  Can you imagine how traumatic it'd be to see zombie Brienne fight Jaime?  Or vice versa?

[Uncle JUICE]

6 minutes ago, terrymct said:

...and which of the characters who die will we then see rise up to fight for the other side.  Can you imagine how traumatic it'd be to see zombie Brienne fight Jaime?  Or vice versa?

Don't you feel like with all that jibber jabber in the last two episodes, SOMEONE should have mentioned "So how do we deal with our own fallen?" as part of the calculus? I'm extremely worried that this show is going to somehow let these characters be 'surprised' by a scenario like the one above, when really, mister "I LOOKED INTO HIS EYES!" should have said from the very beginning in any planning of defenses, "The problem isn't even limited to fighting them. It's fighting them AND immediately finding ways to burn our own dead so that he doesn't add them to his own numbers." This show has not been great about plans and foresight over the last two seasons. Though I suppose raining indiscriminate dragonfire down on them would help, I still feel like that is something they should have dealt with.

Have I mentioned I really hate the stupid AOTD as a story device? This will be two episodes of six remaining that deal not at all with King's Landing and the westeros politics which drove the first six seasons of the show. In the unlikely event that this is the end of that storyline, you'll only have three episodes to deal with the following: The Golden Company. The Iron Islands (no one cares but they're going to do it anyway). The Mad Queen (not Cersei). The Red Woman. 

Varys only has like one more line than Ghost this season, if they turn that into he's a traitor, this show is really going to suck to rewatch again. 

[Popples]

2 hours ago, GatorDeb said:

That's because you have no frame of reference on what a dragon looks like, but everyone knows what a wolf/dog looks life.

True, however, they're usually depicted as giant reptiles with wings and scales seem to be easier than fur/hair.

[LadyArcadia]

On ‎4‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 10:37 PM, BooBear said:

Honestly it was Davos with that little girl and Gilly stepping in to take care of her. It was kind of like Davos got reminded that there will always be the spirit of Shireen out there and always be people, like him, around to help them out.  If he is alive or not. It was almost like it was his recognition that he can move on now and rest. 

But if he does survive I want him to have to adopt her. 

Funny enough, that was my least favorite scene.  Simply because the girl had a facial scar and it was too obvious of a connection.  Had she not had the scar, I would have liked it more.

[BitterApple]

5 hours ago, GraceK said:

Nothing will bring me so much joy as to see those racist assholes die by the numbers . 

Where are you getting the impression they're racist? It seems like the North is more xenophobic than anything else. They gave Missandei a dirty look because she's foreign, not because she's black. They hate blonde-haired, blue-eyed Dany just as equally if not worse. 

[One Tough Cookie]

Since everyone has grown  up and old I have one question:  WHY IS BABY SAM STILL AN INFANT?

The timeline{s} confuse me.

[MissLucas]

I'm not so sure that what will happen in the crypts is that obvious. There seems to be some powerful magic going on there that is also tied to the Starks. And I suspect that the NK's magic isn't working on Starks or at least not in the way he intends and that was why the Children of the Forest could save Benjen. In other words the dead may rise but they will not be under the command of the NK but they will fight for the living. Only problem with that plan - the spouses. Ah well, who knows if marriage vows in front of the Weirwood tree don't have magic properties as well.

[Uncle JUICE]

17 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

I'm not so sure that what will happen in the crypts is that obvious. There seems to be some powerful magic going on there that is also tied to the Starks. And I suspect that the NK's magic isn't working on Starks or at least not in the way he intends and that was why the Children of the Forest could save Benjen. In other words the dead may rise but they will not be under the command of the NK but they will fight for the living. Only problem with that plan - the spouses. Ah well, who knows if marriage vows in front of the Weirwood tree don't have magic properties as well.

This is sensible, but my problem is this story line needs LESS magic, not more. Magic in the wrong writer hands becomes deus ex machina. I'm not saying ignore fantasy elements, but for real, this show did so for a very, very long time, basically right up until the 3ER stuff. It's too late now because they don't have time to set up enough ground rules. 

[BitterApple]

55 minutes ago, One Tough Cookie said:

Since everyone has grown  up and old I have one question:  WHY IS BABY SAM STILL AN INFANT?

The timeline{s} confuse me.

Thank you!!!!!!! Sam looked four years old at most, yet Arya has gone from 10 to 18. I'm completely confused as well.

[joliefaire]

38 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

Thank you!!!!!!! Sam looked four years old at most, yet Arya has gone from 10 to 18. I'm completely confused as well.

The showrunners have talked about this in the past--the reason Baby Sam seems to stay forever a baby is because toddlers/pre-schoolerrs are extremely difficult to work with on camera.  Imagine trying to get a 4 or 5 yr old to show (for example) a sad face or a scared expression or any other convincing expression or behavior.  It was just easier to stay with Baby Sam.

[MadameKillerB]

8 hours ago, paramitch said:

 But as the story progressed here, I did feel pity for her. She was so isolated, and every attempt to connect went badly.

Re: Dany

There's a nice small acting moment I loved...Dany in her room after chewing out Tyrion and Jon ignoring her. She is irritated by a knock but relaxes and seems so visibly relieved that it's old pal Jorah come to speak with her. In that moment, you can see just how alone she is. 

[proserpina65]

12 hours ago, AshleyN said:

We've seen wights that were just skeletons at least once before, but it looked horrible (Jojen's unintentionally funny death scene) so I can't say I'm eager to see it again.

I kind of assumed those, and the more skeletal wights at Hardhome, had been raised while they had more meat on their bones, so to speak, and had continued to decay rather than having already been skeletons when they were reanimated.  Which would mean Rickon's corpse would be an issue, and maybe Littlefinger's, but not the long-dead Starks.  At least I hope this is the case.

[paigow]

42 minutes ago, joliefaire said:

Imagine trying to get a 4 or 5 yr old to show (for example) a sad face or a scared expression or any other convincing expression or behavior.  It was just easier to stay with Baby Sam.

They could have done a CGI face on a real body (like Cersei Walk Of Shame), but the dragons ate the budget...

[proserpina65]

3 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

This will be two episodes of six remaining that deal not at all with King's Landing and the westeros politics which drove the first six seasons of the show.

I'm fine with that.  The Westeros politics storyline actually was my least favorite, and I would've ended that last season.

2 hours ago, One Tough Cookie said:

Since everyone has grown  up and old I have one question:  WHY IS BABY SAM STILL AN INFANT?

The timeline{s} confuse me.

He didn't look like an infant to me.

Edited to note: I read a little further, and realize that you meant he should be even older than the toddler he appears to be.  I get it now.

Edited April 25, 2019 by proserpina65

[Constantinople]

2 hours ago, One Tough Cookie said:

Since everyone has grown  up and old I have one question:  WHY IS BABY SAM STILL AN INFANT?

The timeline{s} confuse me.

Baby Sam is his own uncle, and probably his own great uncle and great great uncle

His genetics may be a little off

[proserpina65]

2 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

I'm not saying ignore fantasy elements, but for real, this show did so for a very, very long time, basically right up until the 3ER stuff.

The show started with the fantasy elements, and pretty much every season has included some of them.  I mean, dragons are fantasy.

[Drogo]

2 hours ago, MissLucas said:

I'm not so sure that what will happen in the crypts is that obvious. There seems to be some powerful magic going on there that is also tied to the Starks. And I suspect that the NK's magic isn't working on Starks or at least not in the way he intends and that was why the Children of the Forest could save Benjen.

"There must always be a Stark in Winterfell" may have some connection to crypt magic as well, since we know Winterfell's been Stark-naked before (pun intended) but only of living Starks.  That expression has always bugged me a little, and I want to know "...or what?!"

[Andromeda]

6 hours ago, GatorDeb said:

That's because you have no frame of reference on what a dragon looks like, but everyone knows what a wolf/dog looks life.

Son informed me last night that GRRM finally admitted that they're not actually dragons, they're wyverns. Oops.

Dragons have four legs and wings on their backs; wyverns, like bats, use their wings as their arms. 

I told him things are different in Westeros/Essos, and wyverns are a form of dragonkind...

https://nerdist.com/article/game-of-thrones-dragons-are-actually-wyverns/

6 hours ago, Cheezwiz said:

This is something that has always irked me about Sansa. She's quite happy to tell other people that Tyrion was kind to her during their brief sham marriage (she's said this several times before to others) but she's always really rude to him in person.  I don't get it. She was mean to him while they were supposedly married (when she realized he was a decent fellow, she could have acknowledged the awkwardness of the situation, made a deal to  survive together, and shaken hands as friends). Instead, when greeted by him again at Winterfell, she's snotty as ever. I don't get her, but then I've never been  a Sansa fan despite the many traumas she's endured. Snotty and petulant seems to be her default.

I agree. I longed for that moment when they were married. He tried so hard! But she was young and afraid, so I excused her. What's her excuse now? Even though he's a Lannister, he's clearly on her side, just like Jamie is.

Edited April 25, 2019 by Andromeda