S03.E04: Vietnam

[Jax7917]

Milo is extremely good looking . 

I like his character but I really wish they'd give him a flaw or 2 to make him seem more realistic . He's always saying the perfect thing or doing it .. he's in love with Rebecca right away for no other reason than he saw her singing once . He's the perfect husband , father, brother , son and human . Every conversation is so serious and heartfelt . I wish he'd crack a joke once in a while ( obviously not in this episode )or flip out or something .

[Soup333]

My father enlisted in 1960 so he wasn’t drafted. I’ve never heard him speak about his experiences and he did serve in Vietnam among other places. I probably know as little as Kevin does. 

[anna0852]

My oldest uncle, on my father's side, had polio as a child. He was born in 1950 and would have been drafted for sure had the polio not left him 4F. My grandmother told me once that she had never thought she'd be grateful for the polio until that day. Fortunately his two brothers were too young to go. 

My maternal grandfather voluntarily joined the USMC after Korea and met my grandmother while serving at the Jordanian embassy (she was the ambassador's secretary). He would end up doing two tours in Vietnam. He never spoke of it and I thought it was because of what he'd seen. Turns out he'd been in Intelligence and per my mother was legally required to keep his mouth shut! He never saw combat (Saigon the whole time) and fascinated his kids once by bring home his unloaded rifle for them to see.

[doodlebug]

4 hours ago, Quark said:

A fairly boring episode.

One thing I'm curious about though. This lottery system for the Vietnam War. When these people were announcing birthdays, did everyone that was born on that specific day need to sign up (provided they met the age requirement)?

Every male in the country is required to register for the Selective Service at age 18 and stays registered until age 26.  In the Viet Nam era, the lottery took place once a year for the subsequent year's draftees.  In general, the pool was for 19 year old men.  However, if a guy was deferred when he turned 19, like he was enrolled in college, he would be eligible the first year after losing his deferment if he dropped out.  So, the numbers were pulled and then, the Department of Defense would start drafting the following year, using the birthdates in the order in which they were drawn.  The guy would receive a notice that his number had come up and he would have to report to his local draft board on a certain date to get a physical and general assessment.  Guys who flunked the physical were declared 4-F and that was it for them.  They went home and never heard another word.  Bruce Springsteen has often spoken in his concerts about being called for his physical and being so scared.  He ended up being declared medically unfit due to a concussion he'd suffered just before.  Dumb luck, and he's always admitted that it was a really random and kinda lucky thing (and also that he played up the effects of the concussion for all they were worth at the exam).  Anyway, numbers got called as soldiers were needed, they started with the first birthday and continued on throughout the year until they had enough people to fill the ranks.  Since there were obviously different needs from year to year as well as differing numbers of guys born each selected date and varying numbers declared ineligible; the lottery would end up snagging a different number of birthdays each year; usually 200 or so. When your year was over, you were done, out.  No more.  If you were eligible for a certain year and didn't get called, then you didn't have to be in the lottery again.

Believe me, if your lottery number came up, you didn't need to contact the draft board, they were more than happy to get in touch with you when they were ready to take you.

BTW, the Viet Nam era draft was infamous for being unfairly slanted against the poor and minorities.  You will notice many of our elected officials in Washington who were draftable during Viet Nam managed to avoid serving.  Some got educational deferments, but those ended eventually.  There are a couple of politicians who got married just before the marital deferment was eliminated.  And, many of the scions of the wealthy served in the National Guard which meant they didn't have to go in the draft.  George W Bush served in the Texas Air National Guard and it is pretty well known that he received a slot that didn't exist.  The Guard was at full capacity and there was no room for him until his father pulled some strings.  There's also a fair amount of evidence that he somehow managed to not have to report for duty and training that was supposed to be mandatory.  

[dreadfulLeigh]

9 hours ago, Biggie B said:

One thing that sort of bugged me was - here we were, seeing in detail all the awful things Jack endured and experienced before and during Vietnam, and yet...no one but we viewers know what happened, or how it affected him. Perhaps he shared a few details with Rebecca but who knows. Certainly his children knew next to nothing about their uncle, grandfather, and great-grandfather. So even though we are gaining all this insight, none of the other characters have it. Perhaps Kevin will learn a bit more as he delves into Jack's Vietnam experience, but that's not the same as if Jack had actually told Kevin what he went through. All the blatant Superman references, including a Superman doll in Nick's bedroom - lost on Jack's wife and kids. They know their dad was a "hero" to them in many ways, but right now, they have no idea why. I find this frustrating.

See, I envisioned Jack’s Vietnam past to be cut with Kevin discovering little bits and pieces of Jack’s time in Vietnam. Although I liked this episode, what you mentioned about his children and possibly wife not knowing about any of this makes it really cut off from the any point past this era of Jack’s life. And since he’s not around to tell them about (and that’s not to say he was obligated to delve into his Vietnam War history with anyone) it would have been nice to juxtapose or preface the Sgt. Jack scenes with Kevin’s journey into Jack’s past. I would have taken that in a 2 parter versus this stand alone pre-1971 version. 

Edited October 18, 2018 by dreadfulLeigh
Reduced quote for relevance

[theatremouse]

I think if this episode has been much more Nick-centric I would've appreciated it more. I'm just bored by Jack. I didn't learn anything I didn't already know about Jack in this episode. Sure, they gave us some specific pieces of information we didn't have before, but none of it was anything I couldn't have guessed, and knowing those things doesn't do anything more for me to inform his character. It was all just "yup, that tracks perfectly with what they've shown before". So I felt like I didn't really need to know. Seeing the "breathe" thing with the friend-originator of that just played to me like the show being all " 'eh, see? Yeah? You know this thing. Here's a flashback/forward to remind you in case you forgot. See? Origin story of holding Randall's face. Oooooooooh. Also he lost part of his leg, and you've seen two seconds of Kevin interacting with someone with a prosthetic leg. Ooooooooh. It connects. Isn't that impressive?" And I'm like, no? Not really? It's not especially satisfying to get this detail? I mean nothing wrong with it either but it seemed kinda wink-winky too proud of itself?

I also have no patience for the show trying to convince me Jack's father didn't use to be an abusive monster ergo presumably when his drunk father died is when he started drinking and went downhill from there? I don't care. Yes, sure, great, Jack had some short spell of his childhood without being afraid in his own home. That's good, but other than the show trying to make me rethink grandpa Pearson (which I have no interest in doing because his ultimate effect on the overall story is the bad part), this detail does nothing. I get that the show is basically just trying to say "hey look, people have nuance" but...I already know that? Give me something narratively satisfying. They already showed me in previous episodes the effect of everything from this episode on Jack. This just confirmed by telling what they'd already established by showing. If this had been 100% from Nick's perspective, I'd have gotten to know that character. That'd be new. The Jack filter made this part of the story redundant.

[ams1001]

Who played the blond officer at the beginning (I think his jacket said Sheehan)? 

 

12 hours ago, PRgal said:

I entered my birthdate (even though I'm female, Canadian and born well after the draft ended), my husband's and my son's.  The boys would have been called.  Me?  Nope.  

My dad's birthday came up in 1970. He was 31 and married by then. He was in the Navy in the early 60s, though, during the Cuban Missile Crisis. He was in Newport, RI when Kennedy gave his big speech and his ship was headed for Cuba the next morning.

My mom was born the same year as Jack, on October 14; October 13th was called. And my brother's birthday also came up (but he wasn't born until 1973).

 

11 hours ago, Empress1 said:

I am. My parents and I both need vision correction; my brother never has, that asshole. :) I keep telling him it's coming for him.

My brother is the only one of the four of us who doesn't wear glasses and, as far as I know, has never had a cavity. Jerk.

[ProudMary]

3 hours ago, Drumpf1737 said:

Check the dialog I believe the doctor indicated that he'd diagnosed the heart condition and had advised Jack that he'd probably be 4F. 

From Jack's comments to the doctor, I got the impression that he had already been declared 4F.  He was several years older than Nicky so that would have already had to have been established.  He was going to give up that status in order to enlist.

[Kira53]

On 10/16/2018 at 10:28 PM, Roxie said:

I'm guessing that those who found this episode boring didn't live through the Vietnam era.  I found my stomach going into knots and my fingernails digging into my palms during the draft lottery scene. It was horrendous.

I wonder how many people that lived through the Vietnam era were bored?

It just came to me that if Nicky was born 3 minutes later he wouldn't have had a high draft number.  What a difference a few minutes made.  It would have been great if he was born on his shitty grandpa's birthday!  BTW - Great song - "What a difference a day makes."  That's a big theme of this episode. I didn't get it when the first person mentioned 2 minutes.

Also, at first I just felt for that poor man who lost his leg.  But he was going home because he lost his leg...  And the truth is,  if he didn't go home that day he might have lost his life the next day or the next week or the next month.  That why I liked this episode; it was deeper than the surface of the narrative as we watch it.  What if Jack didn't say "let's stop now and rest" but instead kept driving and rested in Canada?  Would Nicky have gone back to the US when he was safe in Canada?  What a difference an hour or two might have made?  Of course, we'll never know.  But that is why I love to wait and digest the show so that I can perceive some of the deeper, more subtle aspects of the narrative.  I think a lot of people aren't pleased with an episode if it doesn't put a hammer to their head.  I'm OK that we learn these things and his family will never know most of what influenced him.  That is what happens thousands of times every day in real life. 

And dead people can still be important if they live in our hearts.  Hell, how many years is Alexander Hamilton dead?  Fans of the Broadway show Hamilton came to care deeply for him and all the other dead people in the show.  And we knew how that ended too before we bought expensive tickets for the show.  Shout out to A. Ham!

Edited October 18, 2018 by Kira53

[LakeLover]

On 10/16/2018 at 10:28 PM, Roxie said:

I'm guessing that those who found this episode boring didn't live through the Vietnam era.  I found my stomach going into knots and my fingernails digging into my palms during the draft lottery scene. It was horrendous.

I lived through the Vietnam era and did not like this episode at all. Of course, I hate any "war" shows, movies, etc. and I don't really find Jack all that compelling. I gave this show two chances and fell asleep both times. Interesting about the lottery. My number would have been 364.

[AmandaPanda]

I don't think I was bored by this episode because I didn't live through the Vietnam era. The only part that really interested me was the draft lottery part and how that could have been a much richer storytelling device than it actually was. As has been pointed out, most of the stuff we learned about Jack isn't something Kevin is ever going to be able to find out. They could have had this be more from Kevin's perspective where he's talking to people who served with his dad and they're telling him the stories. That would have furthered the plot in terms of Kevin finding out about his dad. For the overall story, this episode won't really matter. I don't think we really learned anything about Jack that we didn't already know. We knew his dad was abusive and an alcoholic. We knew he had a younger brother who he tried to protect. If they wanted to go for full fantasy in terms of other characters not being to know this information, then I would have so much rather have had an episode from Nicky's perspective. That would have given a whole different perspective on Jack. Though, really, with these writers, it would have been another person thinking they aren't even worthy to breathe the same air as Saint Jack, but oh well. I was disinterested because in the grand scheme of things, this isn't going to pay off to a conclusion.

My frustration is the writers just seem to be spinning their wheels. It doesn't feel like there is a plan. They're just kind of meandering along and seeing what characters people like the most. It feels like a lot of fan service at this point, which is very irritating. It's clear that NBC is going to keep milking this show for all its worth and the cast and creators are totally on board with that. If I were them, I would be the same because it's job security. The problem for people who are enjoying the story, though, is that they're writing to sustain. They aren't writing to an ending, which makes everything feel like filler.

[CleoCaesar]

I'm baffled by the idea floating around this thread that people bored by this episode wouldn't have been if they'd lived through the Vietnam era. Quality storytelling should not have to depend on readers/viewers having personal experience with the subject matter. I mean, I never lived through WWI or WWII but find still find stories of both immensely interesting and emotionally affecting if the storytelling is good. 

 

41 minutes ago, AmandaPanda said:

My frustration is the writers just seem to be spinning their wheels. It doesn't feel like there is a plan. They're just kind of meandering along and seeing what characters people like the most. It feels like a lot of fan service at this point, which is very irritating. It's clear that NBC is going to keep milking this show for all its worth and the cast and creators are totally on board with that. If I were them, I would be the same because it's job security. The problem for people who are enjoying the story, though, is that they're writing to sustain. They aren't writing to an ending, which makes everything feel like filler.

I couldn't click the little heart icon fast enough when I read this, AmandaPanda. I feel like the show is nearing "drinking game" levels of fan service. Take a shot when Jack is prominently, if pointlessly, featured. Take a shot when he's shirtless. Take a shot when Randall has a monologue. Take a shot when Randall and/or Kevin is shirtless. Take a shot when Beth says something quippy and snarky to Randall. Take a shot when William appears. And so on and so forth. At this point, if this were a real game, we'd all have liver failure.

I think the showrunners were spoiled with the show's immense success the first two seasons. It will almost certainly see season 3 and season 4, perhaps more. So it gives them the freedom to plan long arcs and not resolve storylines quickly from fear of cancellation. So we get a whole episode essentially just saying "Jack had a brother named Nicky. He wore glasses and served in 'Nam." We didn't learn anything of substance about him, nor learn anything new about Jack. The showrunners might have this leisurely pace bite them in the ass if too many viewers start to feel like you (and me): that the writers are spinning their wheels.

[Dreamboat Annie]

1 hour ago, theatremouse said:

I also have no patience for the show trying to convince me Jack's father didn't use to be an abusive monster ergo presumably when his drunk father died is when he started drinking and went downhill from there? I don't care.

Oh, I totally agree with you.  I don't care either.  I have seen the two things I ever needed to see about him.

1.  The black eyes on Jack and Nicky's mom.  Eyes.  Plural. 

2.  Jack getting her the fuck out of there.

[DebbieM4]

On 10/16/2018 at 10:05 PM, CleoCaesar said:

Jack isn't an interesting enough character to me to merit this kind of treatment (same goes for William). Yes, they had some nominal flaws but they're both so disgustingly perfect that there's nothing to really explore there. It doesn't help that every other character sees Jack (and William) as perfect. It's one-note. Jack is dead. We finally know how he died (a rather dumb death). Let's just move on. So many other characters to get into.

I agree that Jack just isn't that interesting.   I got the points they were trying to make, but it really was overkill.  There were some nice/interesting moments, but I just don't find Jack all that compelling to begin with, so lots of this really dragged for me.

On 10/16/2018 at 10:28 PM, Roxie said:

I'm guessing that those who found this episode boring didn't live through the Vietnam era.  I found my stomach going into knots and my fingernails digging into my palms during the draft lottery scene. It was horrendous.

I did live thru the Vietnam era.  I remember a lot of it quite clearly, including waiting to hear if my brother would be drafted.  That era is still quite vivid in my mind, but I thought a lot of this episode was really boring.  So I think it's a huge generalization to suggest that those who found it boring are younger and have no memories of that time or a connection to it.   I've never not watched an episode all the way through, but I came close this time.   A lot of it didn't hold my interest at all.

[DebbieM4]

13 hours ago, Blakeston said:

I'm very interested in Vietnam, and I was very glad to see that Tim O'Brien had a writing credit on this episode.

But I was bored by a lot of it. It didn't teach me anything about Vietnam that I didn't already know, and frankly, I couldn't stand all the cliches they were throwing at us.

A soldier boasting about how soon he's going home, and how bright his athletic future is - right before his foot gets blown off?! Are you freaking kidding me?

I agree.  A lot of this was way too predictable.  And I don't think that not loving this episode has anything to do with being unable to recognize the horrors of war in general or this particular time in history.   All of the cliches took me right out of the story several times, and I didn't feel the emotions that I think we're supposed to feel.  That doesn't indicate anything other than that this show missed the mark for some of us this week.  It's not about being unaware of or not impacted by what went on in real life during the time of Vietnam.  It's about how a TV show portrayed it.

[maggiemae]

Good grief. I am an old woman but remember the lottery in 1969 at college. Kind of a party college that night. The only joke the next day was the campus was devastated their number was called and got drunk and the other half silently happy and sad for those that were - and got drunk.

It was truly shocking and stunning.

[DebbieM4]

2 hours ago, theatremouse said:

I think if this episode has been much more Nick-centric I would've appreciated it more. I'm just bored by Jack. I didn't learn anything I didn't already know about Jack in this episode. Sure, they gave us some specific pieces of information we didn't have before, but none of it was anything I couldn't have guessed, and knowing those things doesn't do anything more for me to inform his character. It was all just "yup, that tracks perfectly with what they've shown before". So I felt like I didn't really need to know. Seeing the "breathe" thing with the friend-originator of that just played to me like the show being all " 'eh, see? Yeah? You know this thing. Here's a flashback/forward to remind you in case you forgot. See? Origin story of holding Randall's face. Oooooooooh. Also he lost part of his leg, and you've seen two seconds of Kevin interacting with someone with a prosthetic leg. Ooooooooh. It connects. Isn't that impressive?" And I'm like, no? Not really? It's not especially satisfying to get this detail? I mean nothing wrong with it either but it seemed kinda wink-winky too proud of itself?

 

You've reminded me of some of the specifics that bothered me.   And I reacted exactly the same way that you did.

[bros402]

This episode bored me. I have no idea how that draft lottery thing worked, guess everyone had a number and had to show up somewhere? All I know is that my dad was exempt from the draft, and my maternal grandfather was exempt from the draft.

It would've been better if they had interspersed present bits with the past - maybe Kevin was learning stuff through an email with that guy from Jack's unit.

Edited October 18, 2018 by bros402

[tpplay]

22 hours ago, himela said:

If I wanted to watch a series about war, I would do that. There are many things I hate watching and the worst for me is war stuff. I didn't watch this episode. You have so many interesting characters with great potential of stories and you keep insisting to show us only one character (a dead one) and his life 47 years ago. I mean, who cares?

Um.  I do.

18 hours ago, BuckeyeLou said:

19 hours ago, CountryGirl said:

Meeting Jack's little brother was reason enough alone for me to watch, but truly, I was riveted for the entire episode and the Vietnam angle only added to this.

I am honestly trying to wrap my head around the thought that well, he's been DEAD for how long so who cares at this point? I cannot fathom not caring about anyone once they're gone, TV character or not. By that token, I guess Kevin shouldn't bother reaching out to Donnie Robinson, you know,  the man who taught Jack to just "breathe."

And he should also totally skip that trip to Vietnam. 

l, for one, want to understand more about how and why Jack became "Jack." I saw that despite his bitter, alcoholic father, he grew up to be a warm, loving husband and father. The love of his mother and brother clearly helped shape things in a different direction when it would have been so easy for Jack to repeat the same violent cycle illustrated by Stanley and, as we would learn, Stanley's own father.

Yet everything we thought we knew about the old mean drunk Stanley was shattered when we saw the flashback to the night of Nicky's birth. Stanley was a loving, doting husband and father, joking and laughing with little Jack.

I wonder if Jack remembered this. Most striking of all, when offered a flask by his father, he refused, saying: "Come on, Dad. You know I don't drink." So what happened between Nicky's birth and six or so years later? I want to know. 

Also, the shots of all those "lucky" babies born on October 18th. Wow...to know that many, if not all of those babies, grew up to go off to war, that Nick may have fought alongside men who were in the same room he was when he was born. If that doesn't move you, well, I don't know what will.

Seeing the beginnings of Jack being the larger than life husband and father when he taped Nicky's glasses and assured his worried little brother that he was really Superman in disguise.

Nicky taking Jack's words to heart when he stood up for his mother.

We see those moments echoed in Nicky's goodbye letter to Jack: It's my turn to save the day. I love you, Superman.

We see more of this when Jack, despite his heart condition (oh my own heart, hearing this!), enlists to take care of Nicky however he can because "it's his only job."

I also found parallels between Nicky and Kevin. The physical resemblance, for starters, with that thousand yard stare. 

But more than that...the struggles, the negative self-fulling prophecies, like Kevin's downward spiral last year (which had been a long time coming), harkening back to Nicky's letter to his family: I'm not getting out of here alive and I know that, but I'm not dying on anyone's terms but my own.  I'm living in hell on earth, family. Hell, I may have already died and I don't even know it.

Speaking of Kevin, remember this moment?

Well, we all know Jack said he got that necklace in Vietnam and the now we know from whom: the woman, presumably the mother of the little boy with the fish, was wearing it. 

Nicky's speech to Jack the day before he left for Vietnam: I wonder if things would make more sense if you looked at everything in reverse. Like, if you started at the end, and move backwards and try to figure out how you got there. I wish I could do that right now.  That's exactly what this show is doing...and doing it masterfully.

Oh - and here's a "boring" detail. My father was #65 in that draft. 

 

A beautiful post....its how I felt about this episode also...and yes, this show is unwinding the Pearson family saga...we see how generational issues are carried forward.   My husband too was drafted in 1970 and served in Vietnam, so I found this episode very interesting & emotional.

Yes.  A beautiful post.  The shot of the babies born on the same date - heartbreaking.

[tpplay]

Because - actual death happened.

Who cares?  Really?

[Dowel Jones]

A couple of random observation, now that I finally watched the episode.

The news film posted earlier showed the actual method of the lottery.  The birthday and the number were both selected at the same time, so you might not know your actual number until late in the selection.  That's what I remember as a 17 year old in 1971 (I drew 315 next year, I think).  I realize the show had to compress the process by assigning a number to a sequential date for dramatic purposes.

Nick was assigned to the Americal Division (from the return address on the envelope, which, by the way, had way too much information on for a war zone).  That revived a memory for me so I Wiki-researched it, and I was correct.  The Division was based in Chu Lai, and a small part of the Division committed the massacre at My Lai in 1969.  That's not to say that Nick participated; it's just what the Division was known for at the time.  The Wiki article also lists various personnel of note who served in the Division:  Tim O'Brien, who has been mentioned already, Norman Schwarzkopf, and future Pittsburg Steeler Rocky Bleier.

I noted with some irony the delivery of a Sears home catalogue early in the episode.  RIP, Sears.

[debraran]

I thought the best parts were the hospital babies scene and the draft numbers. Jack always seems to be posing and the center of the episode, I wanted to know more about Nicky, why didn't he try to go to college, why didn't he try for scholarships, what relationship did he have with his father if any? Why did his approval mean something or was it just his conscience? Who is alive now to know?

It is TV drama to see the guy lose his foot, show the adult version of him, you can just hear the conversation after he answers Kevin's email, about what a saint Jack was, etc, etc. How many interviews later will it take to drum it home again. ; )  There were many heroes in the war, many sacrificial lambs, many treated like dirt later because they didn't run or go to jail, not a great part of our history for many reasons.

I didn't live through WWII and my high school didn't really cover the Holocaust well. I found out about it reading an autobiography as a teen of a 13 year old who lived through it (barely) I was so stunned by the enormity, I read dozens more and asked vets a lot of questions. I'll never forget an AA teacher, who lived through it as a minority that was scorned in the south and drafted to serve his country. There was discrimination for sure, but he will never forget seeing the camps, the piles of children's clothes (he barely could talk at this point) the hair, the skeletons, alive and dead. He spoke of his Jewish friend years later, crying at his wife's funeral, not so much just in sorrow, but in thanks that he could bury her, no one else in his family could be that died in Europe.

I felt a great interest in that war, because of the humanity and lack of it and in other war documentary/movies, but in This is Us, it's more about Jack, and Jack in Nam but really just Jack. The war is secondary or less than that. Who did Jack save, who he didn't, but I can see boredom because it's not MASH or a documentary on Vietnam, it's just a show where the saint main character is in Vietnam.

Edited October 18, 2018 by debraran

[JudyObscure]

I get that the whole premise of, "This is Us," is that what happens in our past shapes who we are today, but I still  had trouble getting caught up in the episode, probably because, last year, I watched all 80 hours of the Ken Burns documentary about Vietnam and used up most of my anger at that time.   I'm proud to say I got pregnant in 1967 to keep my young husband out of Vietnam.  Even then we knew that the lives of thousands of young men were being sacrificed to a lost cause all for the sake of  the  political careers of rich powerful men like JFK and LBJ.

[Pallas]

2 hours ago, Dowel Jones said:

The news film posted earlier showed the actual method of the lottery.  The birthday and the number were both selected at the same time, so you might not know your actual number until late in the selection.  That's what I remember as a 17 year oldThe sjow in 1971 (I drew 315 next year, I think).  I realize the show had to compress the process by assigning a number to a sequential date for dramatic purposes.

No, the episode depicted the 1969 lottery, which took place as shown on the CBS special report (which was actual footage). Each canister contained one of 366 dates, which were put up on the board in the order drawn. Simple as that. Except that the canisters weren't sufficiently mixed, so the results weren't entirely random. That was addressed by the following year, with the two-part process.

 

Quote

The Division was based in Chu Lai, and a small part of the Division committed the massacre at My Lai in 1969.  That's not to say that Nick participated; it's just what the Division was known for at the time.  The Wiki article also lists various personnel of note who served in the Division:  Tim O'Brien, who has been mentioned already, Norman Schwarzkopf, and future Pittsburg Steeler Rocky Bleier.

That's a great, terrible find. Someone above asked earlier what trouble Jack's squad might get into while he was off seeing Nicky. 

[ShadowFacts]

7 hours ago, Dreamboat Annie said:

Oh, I totally agree with you.  I don't care either.  I have seen the two things I ever needed to see about him.

1.  The black eyes on Jack and Nicky's mom.  Eyes.  Plural. 

2.  Jack getting her the fuck out of there.

This character has been eminently hate-able since he first appeared.  The fact that he wasn't always this way will absolutely be explored because why else show the Nicky's birth scene.  I have no interest in seeing his transformation at all but it's gonna happen.  And he isn't just a mean drunk, he is abusive when he's not drinking, 24-7.  No nuance.  Any more flashbacks about him are superfluous.  The way some feel about not having learned anything about Jack in this episode, I will feel about  his father.  I get it already.

Edited October 18, 2018 by ShadowFacts

[Ohiopirate02]

9 hours ago, AmandaPanda said:

I don't think I was bored by this episode because I didn't live through the Vietnam era. The only part that really interested me was the draft lottery part and how that could have been a much richer storytelling device than it actually was. As has been pointed out, most of the stuff we learned about Jack isn't something Kevin is ever going to be able to find out. They could have had this be more from Kevin's perspective where he's talking to people who served with his dad and they're telling him the stories. That would have furthered the plot in terms of Kevin finding out about his dad. For the overall story, this episode won't really matter. I don't think we really learned anything about Jack that we didn't already know. We knew his dad was abusive and an alcoholic. We knew he had a younger brother who he tried to protect. If they wanted to go for full fantasy in terms of other characters not being to know this information, then I would have so much rather have had an episode from Nicky's perspective. That would have given a whole different perspective on Jack. Though, really, with these writers, it would have been another person thinking they aren't even worthy to breathe the same air as Saint Jack, but oh well. I was disinterested because in the grand scheme of things, this isn't going to pay off to a conclusion.

My frustration is the writers just seem to be spinning their wheels. It doesn't feel like there is a plan. They're just kind of meandering along and seeing what characters people like the most. It feels like a lot of fan service at this point, which is very irritating. It's clear that NBC is going to keep milking this show for all its worth and the cast and creators are totally on board with that. If I were them, I would be the same because it's job security. The problem for people who are enjoying the story, though, is that they're writing to sustain. They aren't writing to an ending, which makes everything feel like filler.

Most of this episode felt like filler to me as well.  To me, this is a show that does not need a full 22 episode run.  The creators do not have enough narrative for this.  The show would be better off doing 13-15 episodes instead.  There was probably 15 minutes worth of new, necessary material in this episode with the rest as filler.  They could have easily mixed in scenes of Kevin researching the flashbacks. 

[sadie]

For those that think some of us didn’t like the ep because we weren’t around during the war are missing the point. We didn’t like this story within the This Is Us world context. The story they were trying to tell didn’t resonate with us in regards to THIS tv show. In some other show about different people or thinks it might have been brilliant but instead I think it was another attempt by the show to 1) keep Milo front and center as the STAR and 2) to further cram down our throats what a perfect saint Jack was. I like Milo as an actor but I hate how they’ve drawn his character, he’s SO selfless SO kind SO magnetic to every human around him (except his equally one note bad guy father that was an asshole 24/7) that it just rings false. There is no nuance. For all of Mandy Moore’s bad acting at least the character has good and bad qualities, it makes her human and therefore more interesting. I hope the writers get back on track here, they say ratings are down and I believe this is why.

[ShadowFacts]

29 minutes ago, sadie said:

For those that think some of us didn’t like the ep because we weren’t around during the war are missing the point. We didn’t like this story within the This Is Us world context. The story they were trying to tell didn’t resonate with us in regards to THIS tv show. In some other show about different people or thinks it might have been brilliant but instead I think it was another attempt by the show to 1) keep Milo front and center as the STAR and 2) to further cram down our throats what a perfect saint Jack was. I like Milo as an actor but I hate how they’ve drawn his character, he’s SO selfless SO kind SO magnetic to every human around him (except his equally one note bad guy father that was an asshole 24/7) that it just rings false. There is no nuance. For all of Mandy Moore’s bad acting at least the character has good and bad qualities, it makes her human and therefore more interesting. I hope the writers get back on track here, they say ratings are down and I believe this is why.

Milo being front and center as star isn't going to change, so we can expect to see lots of him, though I think he didn't appear at all in a recent episode?  Anyway, he isn't totally sainted, he was about to rob a bar, he was drunk and disorderly on Rebecca's band's gig out of town, drove drunk, he sat in a bar after work when Rebecca had her hands full at home, he undercuts her with the kids, he overindulges Kate, so he has been shown to have normal human flawed behavior.   But I am not very impressed with this season so far, it lacks humor and it's just sort of clunking along.  I hope it can pick up steam. 

[Sharyn]

On 10/16/2018 at 7:04 PM, J0nas3 said:

Very interesting to see Jack’s dad at the moment of Nick’s birth, a teetotaler who’s very supportive.

I agree!  It's a good reminder for us to look at the whole person and realize addicts are more than their disease and abusive behavior. 

[CountryGirl]

I rewatched the episode last night, along with leafing through my much-worn and dog-eared copy of The Things They Carried and found it resonated with me even more.

I can relate to some of the frustration that TIU, like a lot of shows, movies, etc., is sometimes guilty and often criticized for (and not necessarily unfairly criticized) of trying to cram in every storyline and character and timeline. Even I, a diehard Steelers fan, chuckled at the inclusion of Franco Harris a few episodes ago.

So we finally get a relatively stand-alone episode where people and things can just “breathe” (pun intended). But it’s tricky because it’s Vietnam and we’ve seen this before and we know there will be tropes and clichés aplenty (case in point - Ronnie losing his foot what seems like five seconds after talking about his being 90 days away from his DEROS) and we’re honestly surprised when Jimi Hendrix’s All Along the Watchtower isn’t queued up in the background. (As an aside, I love the song choices as well, especially Tom Rush’s Child's Song).

I realize too, that some are sick of Jack (not me, obviously), I mean, he’s been dead for what feels like forever, and we feel like we already know his story but what struck me on rewatch, more than ever before, is that this isn’t just Jack’s story or even Nicky’s story. They are the faces of it, sure, but it’s far more than their story. They are there to tell the story of “us” because the “us” of TIU is so much bigger than the characters we’ve been introduced to.

We see through Jack and Nicky the weight and guilt of war and duty and brotherhood and one’s sense of self but, as Nicky commented, “backwards.” It goes beyond Vietnam because anyone, even those living under a rock, have all taken a history course or two, and have, at minimum, a cursory understanding of what happened (why is the infinitely harder piece). It dives back through time to start to unravel how Nicky got there (we know why Jack is there – to protect Nicky) and by “there,” I mean, how Nicky ended up standing next to a flaming barrel of crap in the middle of a jungle.

Nicky is the very picture of duty and guilt, ultimately choosing to report for duty vs fleeing to Canada, shattering himself because of what he felt he had to do, even if that meant dying. To quote O’Brien: “It was very sad. The things men carried inside. The things men did or felt they had to do… Men killed, and died, because they were embarrassed not to.” Seeing Nicky have almost a death wish because then the terrible limbo of waiting, will it be me? this day?, this hour?, this minute?, would be over. Again, to quote O’Brien: “You’re never more alive than when you’re almost dead.”

We go back further to the very night Nicky is born and we see a sober, loving Stanley and are trying to reconcile that Stanley with the story we’ve been presented thus far as a drunk, abusive bastard. It is easy to write this off as pffft…so what? So Stanley was different then. He became a drunken wife and child beater later, so who cares? Roll credits. Fade to black. But as the daughter of an alcoholic, I will always wonder where things changed for my father. Was it losing his mother at the age of ten? Was it the guilt over not having to serve in Vietnam when his buddies did, some of them coming back in a pine box? Or not measuring up to his decorated war hero father, my grandfather?  I don’t know that he or I will ever know. But you better believe I wish I could have a window into those worlds as we viewers do with Jack and Nicky (and next week, Toby). Because yes, all of those things in my father’s life, in Jack’s life, happened years ago, but those seemingly long-forgotten tossed pebbles of memory ripple through to me (and Kate, Randall, Kevin) to this very day.

I am not one who would say you had to be there to understand it. I’m betting very few us were around for the Holocaust but certainly we can all be horrified by it and can shed tears for those lost, whether we knew them or not (and I had family members killed in the Holocaust, long lost cousins whom I know only through the letters sent to my grandmother all those years ago…until one day, they stopped). I was only the proverbial twinkle in my father’s eye when he was drafted but for the grace of God, he remained stateside. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that had he gone, my brother, born in 1971, and I, born in 1973, would likely not exist and would not be typing these very words on my keyboard right now.

I go back to some of the final moments of the episode and the most heart-wrenching part when Stanley and four-year-old Jack look down at all of those babies as we scan across the cards that reveal they all have the same birthday. It was even more chilling on rewatch, the thought that this room, so full of life and potential, is a future military unit and these tiny little lives are already being crushed by a sense of duty foisted upon them by country or family (Jack would certainly fall into this category) or even themselves. And that they were a mere 120 seconds away from a very different fate.

I think of those babies, all of the babies, born that day, born on other not-so-lucky days. The ones who served. The ones who didn’t. The ones who came home but were forever changed. And the ones who died.

Thank you to TIU for telling their stories and O’Brien said it best here: "Stories are for joining the past to the future. Stories are for those late hours in the night when you can't remember how you got from where you were to where you are. Stories are for eternity, when memory is erased, when there is nothing to remember except the story.” 

In closing, I am reminded of one of my very favorite quotes of all time, from Laura Ingalls Wilder’s Little House in the Big Woods: "Because now…is now. It can never be a long time ago."

[methodwriter85]

I didn't understand how the lottery worked so I figured I'd be safe with a December birthday. Then I found out how it actually worked, and I would have been a 12, and for sure would have been going, although I probably would have just told the I was gay. Still, crazy to think about.

[TV Diva Queen]

I blame this episode on all the lovers of Jack and the "jack can do no wrong people"  NBC sees comments that Jack is the bomb, and this is the kind of shit they throw at us.  Someone up thread said that NBC is riding the wave of the the success of Season 1 and kind of Season 2.  They're going to milk this show for every last drop.  Its good, but its not nearly as good as when it started.  

[Biggie B]

Quote

Its good, but its not nearly as good as when it started. 

I would agree. I'm still watching the show and I think it has moments of brilliance. But at the end of the day, I feel like it's a still just a very fancy soap opera with a twist. Which is fine - as I said, I'm still watching, and I'm not hate-watching it. But perhaps the flashback gimmick is beginning to wear thin? I get that Milo is the marquee star of the show and seeing as his character is dead, flashbacks are the only way to show him, but how long can that sustain? It's tricky. Regardless, I think this Jack-only episode was enough to last a long, long time. We need to get back to the present day. I definitely want to see Kevin go to Vietnam, though. That should push him WAY out of his comfort zone and that interests me more than seeing what about Jack he discovers.

[Julia67]

I was pretty ambivalent about this episode.  What bothers me is the little things:  like Jack would have surely had a military hair cut in Vietnam.  They all would have!  And, last week, when he spoke to Rebecca in the store while his mom looked at the pies, there was obviously 2018 food on the shelves.  I think, overall, they do a great job being time-period authentic so it really bugs me when they miss these little things.  Nit picky, I know!

[topanga]

16 minutes ago, Julia67 said:

I was pretty ambivalent about this episode.  What bothers me is the little things:  like Jack would have surely had a military hair cut in Vietnam.  They all would have!  And, last week, when he spoke to Rebecca in the store while his mom looked at the pies, there was obviously 2018 food on the shelves.  I think, overall, they do a great job being time-period authentic so it really bugs me when they miss these little things.  Nit picky, I know!

Ooh, what did you see? Kambucha smoothies and Kale chips?

[ThisIsMe]

Very interesting to read all of the "I was bored"  and "get back to the present day" comments about this episode.

For me, that just reinforces the stereotype that millenials and Gen Xers don't really give a damn if it's not relevant to them.  

Yes, I am a boomer, and I lived through the Vietnam era.  I had cousins who served, and although they survived, they each came back messed up in one way or another ... because it was a terrible, crazy, ugly war that took a tremendous toll. 

This country ignored what happened in Vietnam for decades.  I think we can spare 48 minutes to hear a few fictional stories depicting the personal toll it took on so many.

[Julia67]

9 minutes ago, topanga said:

Ooh, what did you see? Kambucha smoothies and Kale chips?

LOL!  Not sure if this is a tongue-in-cheek rhetorical question or not, but I'll bite (pun intended).  It was cereal boxes, mac and cheese boxes, and those individual cups of cereal with the pull pack plastic tops.  Definitely not food from the 70s!

[topanga]

8 minutes ago, Julia67 said:

LOL!  Not sure if this is a tongue-in-cheek rhetorical question or not, but I'll bite (pun intended).  It was cereal boxes, mac and cheese boxes, and those individual cups of cereal with the pull pack plastic tops.  Definitely not food from the 70s!

Thanks. I was just being a smart-ass because I couldn’t think of anything I’d consider modern food.

[CleoCaesar]

23 minutes ago, ThisIsMe said:

Very interesting to read all of the "I was bored"  and "get back to the present day" comments about this episode.

For me, that just reinforces the stereotype that millenials and Gen Xers don't really give a damn if it's not relevant to them. 

Are you seriously generalizing two entire generations based on a dozen comments that a shitty episode of an average TV show was boring?

It's not boring because it was set in the past. It was boring because it was a dull episode that regurgitated everything we already knew about St. Jack.

[TwoGrayTabbies]

10 minutes ago, ThisIsMe said:

Very interesting to read all of the "I was bored"  and "get back to the present day" comments about this episode.

For me, that just reinforces the stereotype that millenials and Gen Xers don't really give a damn if it's not relevant to them.  

Yes, I am a boomer, and I lived through the Vietnam era.  I had cousins who served, and although they survived, they each came back messed up in one way or another ... because it was a terrible, crazy, ugly war that took a tremendous toll. 

This country ignored what happened in Vietnam for decades.  I think we can spare 48 minutes to hear a few fictional stories depicting the personal toll it took on so many.

There are a few stereotypes about Baby Boomers, as perhaps you know.

Nearly every poster with an unfavorable comment has given an explanation of why.  For myself, I don’t think TIU is a good vehicle for exploring a sensitive issue like the Vietnam war.  This isn’t a cerebral program.  It runs on emotions, not ideas.  It didn’t really say anything about the war; the war was just background for filler material on Jack’s backstory.    Presumably, this pertains to Kevin’s new story, but I agree with others that a whole episode wasn’t necessary, and this was mostly gratuitous St Jack overkill.

To further illustrate my point:  The fourth season of the original Upstairs, Downstairs series was entirely devoted to the First World War.  There were episodes about anti-German hysteria, and shell shocked soldiers.  Characters’ lives changed because the war upset the normal economy and class structure.  The series really addressed significant WWI issues, really had the characters engage with them.  In contrast, Downton Abbey’s second season was also about WWI, but it never engaged with the history like UD did. The war was just backdrop for the soapy stories.   That’s all I’ve seen so far from TIU.  Not because I’m a soulless Gen Xer, but because I’m a connoisseur of good drama.

[Trillium]

35 minutes ago, ThisIsMe said:

 

For me, that just reinforces the stereotype that millenials and Gen Xers don't really give a damn if it's not relevant to them.  

 

Yeah I don’t think that has anything to do why this episode was boring. I recently attended an event where the speaker was a Medal or Honor recipient who served in Vietnam. As someone who straddles the Millennium/Gen X line, I was enthralled with his entire speech and could have listened longer. And the only thing I did like about this episode was the real draft footage. I think the reason people though it was boring it didn’t advance the plot one bit and are getting bored with Jack Pearson being the greatest man who ever lived  

[ShadowFacts]

54 minutes ago, TwoGrayTabbies said:

There are a few stereotypes about Baby Boomers, as perhaps you know.

Nearly every poster with an unfavorable comment has given an explanation of why.  For myself, I don’t think TIU is a good vehicle for exploring a sensitive issue like the Vietnam war.  This isn’t a cerebral program.  It runs on emotions, not ideas.  It didn’t really say anything about the war; the war was just background for filler material on Jack’s backstory.    Presumably, this pertains to Kevin’s new story, but I agree with others that a whole episode wasn’t necessary, and this was mostly gratuitous St Jack overkill.

To further illustrate my point:  The fourth season of the original Upstairs, Downstairs series was entirely devoted to the First World War.  There were episodes about anti-German hysteria, and shell shocked soldiers.  Characters’ lives changed because the war upset the normal economy and class structure.  The series really addressed significant WWI issues, really had the characters engage with them.  In contrast, Downton Abbey’s second season was also about WWI, but it never engaged with the history like UD did. The war was just backdrop for the soapy stories.   That’s all I’ve seen so far from TIU.  Not because I’m a soulless Gen Xer, but because I’m a connoisseur of good drama.

I see what you're saying and don't totally disagree, but I do think war isn't just a cerebral thing, an ideological thing, it is highly emotional.  People's lives are blown up, families torn asunder, so many innocents killed.  This episode did touch on those things quite a bit, not just to sanctify Jack.  Nicky is an individual who does not just exist for Jack to save; the other soldiers actually suffer and die with no relation to Jack other than as brothers stuck in a hell not of their own making.  The mother and young child are trying to survive and I don't see them as just a backdrop for Jack.  I don't expect a full examination of the Vietnam War from this show, and increasingly I don't expect super good drama from it, either.  I'm suspending judgment as much as I can, but it has fallen off in quality.  It may be too many flashbacks, it may be not enough that interests me in present day, but I don't think the insertion of Vietnam is a problem in itself.  And I don't think that people who didn't like it are soulless GenXers.  Nobody is ever going to like the same things all the time, there's nothing wrong with personal preference. 

[chocolatine]

I feel I need to chime in as one of the "heartless" and/or "selfish" GenX-ers who wasn't moved by this episode. I'm not unfamiliar with the devastation of war, as my Soviet Jewish grandparents narrowly escaped being killed by Nazis in WWII. I just came back from a trip to Prague where I saw an exhibition that moved me to tears, of pictures painted by children at the Terezin concentration camp, shortly before they were transported to Auschwitz to be killed.

This episode did not move me because the people who made it don't have the skill or gravitas to take on this subject. It felt like a vanity episode for Milo, nothing more.

[MissL]

I was bored but I don't necessarily base it on the fact that it was set during Vietnam. I think that could have been done well it was just a bit hamfisted. As people have stated more eloquently than me all of the "wink wink look how important this is" moments bothered me more in this episode than usual. 

My father always said he enlisted in the Air Force so he wouldn't get drafted to the army. According to that website his draft number was so high I wonder if he would have been called. And his eyesight was absolutely awful so I know that's not a thing. He was a plane mechanic so I always assumed he never saw combat but I remember from my childhood he did tell one story to my cousin about being in a fox hole and they were firing for so long and that they started standing on so many shell casings they had to duck down to stay in the hole. I just sat there listening amazed because He Never talked about it. He passed 15 years ago when I was still young enough not to think to ask more questions. He took pills for his nerves and could never be alone without having a panic attack and now I wonder if he was always like that or if it was the war? It's sad but realistic to know that there are aspects of your loved ones lives you may never know. I'll find it much more realistic if Jack's family only gets pieces of the story and there are things that only we as the audience will see and understand as making up all the parts of Jack. That being said I do not need another episode that focuses exclusively on him. 

 

I don't know about you all but I was having a hard time with Milo as young Jack. Because damn he has aged well but he's still aged and I remember what he looked like much younger. Would take me out of scenes. And the tight whities actually freaked me out. Not a fan. I'd rather see him dressed.

[ams1001]

13 hours ago, Dowel Jones said:

I noted with some irony the delivery of a Sears home catalogue early in the episode.  RIP, Sears.

Heh, I noticed that, too. Nice touch; I wonder if that was planned (not sure when the possibility of declaring bankruptcy started trickling into the news).

 

12 hours ago, debraran said:

I didn't live through WWII and my high school didn't really cover the Holocaust well. I found out about it reading an autobiography as a teen of a 13 year old who lived through it (barely) I was so stunned by the enormity, I read dozens more and asked vets a lot of questions. I'll never forget an AA teacher, who lived through it as a minority that was scorned in the south and drafted to serve his country. There was discrimination for sure, but he will never forget seeing the camps, the piles of children's clothes (he barely could talk at this point) the hair, the skeletons, alive and dead. He spoke of his Jewish friend years later, crying at his wife's funeral, not so much just in sorrow, but in thanks that he could bury her, no one else in his family could be that died in Europe.

I took a half-year class in high school (early 90s) that was mostly about the Holocaust (it was called Human Conscience; previously "Conscience of Man" but then they decided that was sexist). We also watched Mississippi Burning and The Accused, and talked about things like the Kitty Genovese case, but the bulk of it was about the Holocaust. Our "textbook" was actually just a binder with lots of articles and other writing the teacher had collected. They were old and falling apart so he had us toss them at the end of the year. I wish I had kept mine; there was a lot of interesting stuff in there. It's a subject that has interested me ever since. 

 

12 hours ago, debraran said:

but really just Jack. 

Thanks to the Will & Grace connection, I read that in Jack McFarland's voice. "Just Jack!!" (Sorry.)

[ThisIsMe]

1 hour ago, ShadowFacts said:

It may be too many flashbacks, it may be not enough that interests me in present day, but I don't think the insertion of Vietnam is a problem in itself.  And I don't think that people who didn't like it are soulless GenXers.  Nobody is ever going to like the same things all the time, there's nothing wrong with personal preference. 

That's fair.

It just seemed to me that there was a lot of complaining going on along the lines of "I don't care about the Vietnam story/I want things to stay present day" etc.

On another (but related) issue is the fact that Jack/Milo are very important to TIU.  And, so, what do the producers do with a character who is dead in the present day?  It's only logical that they decided to tell the back story.  Job security for Milo, who, I think most of us agree, is a terrific actor.

The Vietnam episode held my attention WAY more than the first-dates-with-Rebecca scenes.  Those, I found boring.

It's going be interesting to see where they go from here with Jack's involvement with the story line.

[LakeLover]

2 hours ago, CleoCaesar said:

Are you seriously generalizing two entire generations based on a dozen comments that a shitty episode of an average TV show was boring?

It's not boring because it was set in the past. It was boring because it was a dull episode that regurgitated everything we already knew about St. Jack.

I agree. I'm a boomer, remember and lived through the Vietnam war, and just didn't like this episode in relation to this particular show.

[debraran]

43 minutes ago, ams1001 said:

Heh, I noticed that, too. Nice touch; I wonder if that was planned (not sure when the possibility of declaring bankruptcy started trickling into the news).

 

I took a half-year class in high school (early 90s) that was mostly about the Holocaust (it was called Human Conscience; previously "Conscience of Man" but then they decided that was sexist). We also watched Mississippi Burning and The Accused, and talked about things like the Kitty Genovese case, but the bulk of it was about the Holocaust. Our "textbook" was actually just a binder with lots of articles and other writing the teacher had collected. They were old and falling apart so he had us toss them at the end of the year. I wish I had kept mine; there was a lot of interesting stuff in there. It's a subject that has interested me ever since. 

 

 

There are a lot of great books and movies about it, I have about a dozen and one day hope to see the great Holocaust museum in Washington DC. I've never been there and it is disturbing but very educational. There are also inspirational movies about people who helped thousands of children and adults.

I also paused at the catalog, how I loved that as a kid around Xmas. Mostly a wish book as they said, but still fun.

[MJS]

On 10/16/2018 at 10:13 PM, Soup333 said:

I had to explain to my daughter how the draft worked. Then she heard her birthdate announced on the tv during the bar scene and both our mouths dropped open. Of all the days in the year.

I cant imagine how terrifying that would have been. 

That ending scene with all the babies that shared Nick's birthday broke me. All those baby boys whose number was just called. I sobbed. 

[ams1001]

7 minutes ago, debraran said:

There are a lot of great books and movies about it, I have about a dozen and one day hope to see the great Holocaust museum in Washington DC. I've never been there and it is disturbing but very educational. There are also inspirational movies about people who helped thousands of children and adults.

I also paused at the catalog, how I loved that as a kid around Xmas. Mostly a wish book as they said, but still fun.

I went to the Holocaust Museum a few years ago (I actually wrote about that in my previous comment but then decided it was getting too long and it's off topic so I cut it out). A little overwhelming at some spots (the shoes!) but definitely worth the trip.

They do an interesting thing where you get a little four-page booklet on your way in with details of someone who was there. You're supposed to turn the pages as you work your way down the levels (there are four, that go chronologically (mostly); you start out by riding to the top in an elevator meant to feel like a cattle car, and you're kinda packed in with the group entering, at least as much as safety codes will allow, I assume, and watch a short video on the way up - and then you work your way down to the bottom and at the end you find out if "you" survived or not. (I did.) You need a (free) ticket to get in the main exhibit but there are several side exhibits you can just walk through (we saw a little but then I almost passed out shortly after we got into one room and we had to go get something to eat before our ticket time came up...so...don't do that). I don't know if it's still there but there was another exhibit based on the book Daniel's Story that was geared toward kids; I wanted to see it but by the time we got out of the main exhibit the museum was closing. (Then we went to the WW2/Korea/Vietnam**/Lincoln memorials, visited the giant Einstein statue at the National Academy of Sciences, and then to Founding Farmers for dinner, which was totally worth the hour+ we had to wait even at 8pm.)

**see, I'm on topic!