S03.E04: Vietnam

[debraran]

I wasn't emotional at all in this one except for how Nicky felt. I'm sure we will have more flashbacks on their father, what triggered the drinking, money stress, lost job?  I know they wanted to show the lineage of drinking but of course Jack was a "happy drunk" never being cruel, etc. so more acceptable.  I wonder if it was the father that made Nicky not go to Canada and hitchhike back?I remember way back in the 70's a good debate on that on All in the Family, when his SIL had a friend who dodged the draft that way. (The Draft Dodger which is on youtube)

I thought the heart thing was hit over your head way too many times. We get it! When he was hugging his Mom after a dad blowup (which would make sense) his heart was fast, it was mentioned by his doctor, how to beat the deferral (which was hard to listen too) and I'm sure it had to do with his death, but why didn't anyone else know?

There has to the the death of Nicky we see with Jack holding him but seeing Toby admitting to throwing out his pills seems to be next show which will be good. I still think it's crazy to do that, what kind of supportive husband or father will you be, and he knew it, he said, he was in a bad place before he was on them. It will be an interesting arc.

Edited October 17, 2018 by debraran

[gameshowjunkie]

Nicky was supposed to be what, 22? If he wanted to be a doctor why didn't he go to med school? We see his room full of books and science paraphernalia. Wonder if he finished his undergrad. Has it been established that Jack never went to college at all? I was too young to be aware of it at the time but I feel like a lot of young men went to or stayed in school to get deferments. 

I knew about men getting numbers but I had never seen them called out on TV. Reminded me of The Hunger Games. Barbaric.

[himela]

If I wanted to watch a series about war, I would do that. There are many things I hate watching and the worst for me is war stuff. I didn't watch this episode. You have so many interesting characters with great potential of stories and you keep insisting to show us only one character (a dead one) and his life 47 years ago. I mean, who cares?

[Cementhead]

1 hour ago, himela said:

If I wanted to watch a series about war, I would do that. There are many things I hate watching and the worst for me is war stuff. I didn't watch this episode.

Same here.

Edited October 17, 2018 by Cementhead

[plurie]

1 hour ago, gameshowjunkie said:

Nicky was supposed to be what, 22? If he wanted to be a doctor why didn't he go to med school? We see his room full of books and science paraphernalia. Wonder if he finished his undergrad. Has it been established that Jack never went to college at all? I was too young to be aware of it at the time but I feel like a lot of young men went to or stayed in school to get deferments. 

I got the impression that the Pearsons didn't have the money for college, so it wasn't an option for Nicky. If he'd been born into a wealthier family, he would have gone to college (and gotten a deferment and not been drafted).

[ShadowFacts]

4 hours ago, JMarie99 said:

 

Roxie, I couldn’t agree with you more, and once I read your comment I wasn’t able to go on and read any more, fearing I would read others’ comments from those who were “bored.”  I too lived through the Vietnam era. It was hell. Those before us are called “The Greatest Generation” (which they deserved), but at least their enemy was well defined. The Vietnam “conflict” was a different story. Fortunately none of my friends died in the Vietnam “conflict” - a few were drafted but fortunately sent to Germany - one served combat in Vietnam and was never the same afterwards. God bless the younger generation who never had to fear the draft and who were bored by this episode. They truly are the lucky ones. 

Emphasis mine, but yes, so true.  I had older cousins who were drafted and came back very much changed.  Our local underground radio station (yes, it was a thing) would announce the time with "it's blank o'clock, and the war continues."  A friend's husband more recently died of leukemia likely caused by Agent Orange.  Another one has lymphoma now.  I knew this type of episode would resonate more with people who were older and had at least tangential experiences with the era.  I think it's partly generational, partly personal preference -- I find this more interesting than IVF or Hollywood acting careers (and probably Philadelphia council politics). 

[Jeddah]

This is a tv show. I think it’s unfair and simplistic to say anyone who doesn’t like this episode must be a lucky member of the younger generation who just doesn’t get it.

[MrsWitter]

10 hours ago, Roxie said:

I'm guessing that those who found this episode boring didn't live through the Vietnam era.  I found my stomach going into knots and my fingernails digging into my palms during the draft lottery scene. It was horrendous.

I didn’t live through the Vietnam era, but had heard bits and pieces about it from my parents. I found the whole episode captivating. The way my mother talked about how many boys she knew who were shipped off and her sadness about her friends-this episode made me reflect on those conversations in a new way. I can’t imagine the terror it was for those alive at that time. It was really well done. In a weird way, it’s actually one of my favorite episodes.

 

My Dad wasn’t drafted for some undisclosed reason having to do with his mother’s influence. I actually went and looked up my Dad’s birthday on the draft- his number was pretty low (53). I believe he was able to avoid it earlier because he was in college and grad school, but I don’t know how he avoided the lottery (he was born in 1945 and my understanding is he was done with schooling by 1970). Makes me even more curious to know what my Grandmother maneuvered! If anyone wants to see the order of all the birthdates, here’s a link:

 

http://www.historynet.com/whats-your-number.htm

 

ETA: I just saw that @Veronica linked to a great website already. The one I’m linking to is just a chart. Thanks Veronica for posting that link- I like how it offers more explanation (“if you had been born...”)

Edited October 17, 2018 by MrsWitter

[DoubleUTeeEff]

9 hours ago, mtlchick said:

9 hours ago, deaja said:

I said this once last season, but I think the show is at its weakest when it dwells on one character.

I hear you on that.  I feel that the standalone episodes for The Big 3 last year was meh at best.  The show works better when it's not focused on one person.

I agree with you but I think they made the right choice to focus on Jack and Vietnam for this particular episode.  Can you imagine the juxtaposition between something Kate was whining about and Jack during war? Viewers would be even more disgusted with her than they usually are!

[Pallas]

8 hours ago, mmecorday said:

Old men announcing the fate of young men on live TV. Absolutely chilling.

For many, the generation gap between those in charge and those coming of age was a chasm, with teeth. There was real, visceral hatred, contempt, and hidden despair. The hardening of older men's eyes as they looked at younger men's hair, and the sneer of younger men as they met that look. Watching the lottery, I not only sensed smug aggression from the suited officials displaying their absolute power, but imagined the same satisfaction from many of the millions of older men viewing. 

I'm sure I was wrong about that, by and large -- just as Jack and Nick were. But another reason they left the house to watch in a bar was to safely place themselves out of reach of their father's reaction. 

[callmebetty]

Reflecting more on this episode it really shows Jack has a savior complex. So in that way Kate is right that Randall is very much Jack's son,  Randall also has a savior complex.

I think it also had bearing on how Jack treated Kevin growing up. Kevin was already Superman,  he was capable and strong and didn't need to be looked after, not like Kate or Randall.  Plus, it hurt him to see Kevin treat Randall so poorly, when they were brothers and for Jack you look after your brother.

I really liked the episode and didn't mind the flash backwards of the construct.

I just hope we revisit and see what happened.

[Arcadiasw]

9 hours ago, Veronica said:

Would your draft number be called? Type in the month & day you were born to see if you would have been drafted. 

2 minutes. 2 damn minutes. 

I'm female but I put my birthdate in anyway. Only me and one of my brothers would have not been drafted and I have four brothers. As others have said, I can't imagine how scary that was watching that on TV. I'm younger generation but I like this episode but I also like war documentaries from Vietnam, World War II, etc.

[Ohiopirate02]

I wonder with Nicky's age if he did attend a community college to get out of the previous drafts.  Between Jack and Nicky working they should have been able to afford tuition.  My dad was born in 1953 and I do know that one of the reasons he went to college was to avoid being drafted.  He would have been called in the 1972 draft and his number was 41.  Now he did not graduate high school until June of 1972, but that was enough time for him to get accepted to the local Kent State satellite campus.  My family would have been poorer than the Pearsons with 9 kids, but the money was found for him to attend.    

[Pallas]

24 minutes ago, callmebetty said:

Reflecting more on this episode it really shows Jack has a savior complex. So in that way Kate is right that Randall is very much Jack's son,  Randall also has a savior complex.

I was also interested in Sgt. Jack's confession to Robinson, his brother-in-arms: "I've been pretending my whole life."  That sounds like both his sons, though I'm not sure either was as self-aware at 28. Then again, young Jack had flung himself into the sort of crucible that can yield such truth, and brought together with a companion he felt was strong enough to hear it.

[CountryGirl]

Meeting Jack's little brother was reason enough alone for me to watch, but truly, I was riveted for the entire episode and the Vietnam angle only added to this.

I am honestly trying to wrap my head around the thought that well, he's been DEAD for how long so who cares at this point? I cannot fathom not caring about anyone once they're gone, TV character or not. By that token, I guess Kevin shouldn't bother reaching out to Donnie Robinson, you know,  the man who taught Jack to just "breathe."

And he should also totally skip that trip to Vietnam. 

l, for one, want to understand more about how and why Jack became "Jack." I saw that despite his bitter, alcoholic father, he grew up to be a warm, loving husband and father. The love of his mother and brother clearly helped shape things in a different direction when it would have been so easy for Jack to repeat the same violent cycle illustrated by Stanley and, as we would learn, Stanley's own father.

Yet everything we thought we knew about the old mean drunk Stanley was shattered when we saw the flashback to the night of Nicky's birth. Stanley was a loving, doting husband and father, joking and laughing with little Jack.

I wonder if Jack remembered this. Most striking of all, when offered a flask by his father, he refused, saying: "Come on, Dad. You know I don't drink." So what happened between Nicky's birth and six or so years later? I want to know. 

Also, the shots of all those "lucky" babies born on October 18th. Wow...to know that many, if not all of those babies, grew up to go off to war, that Nick may have fought alongside men who were in the same room he was when he was born. If that doesn't move you, well, I don't know what will.

Seeing the beginnings of Jack being the larger than life husband and father when he taped Nicky's glasses and assured his worried little brother that he was really Superman in disguise.

Nicky taking Jack's words to heart when he stood up for his mother.

We see those moments echoed in Nicky's goodbye letter to Jack: It's my turn to save the day. I love you, Superman.

We see more of this when Jack, despite his heart condition (oh my own heart, hearing this!), enlists to take care of Nicky however he can because "it's his only job."

I also found parallels between Nicky and Kevin. The physical resemblance, for starters, with that thousand yard stare. 

But more than that...the struggles, the negative self-fulling prophecies, like Kevin's downward spiral last year (which had been a long time coming), harkening back to Nicky's letter to his family: I'm not getting out of here alive and I know that, but I'm not dying on anyone's terms but my own.  I'm living in hell on earth, family. Hell, I may have already died and I don't even know it.

Speaking of Kevin, remember this moment?

Well, we all know Jack said he got that necklace in Vietnam and now we know from whom: the woman (presumably the mother of the little boy with the fish) was wearing it. 

Nicky's speech to Jack the day before he left for Vietnam: I wonder if things would make more sense if you looked at everything in reverse. Like, if you started at the end, and move backwards and try to figure out how you got there. I wish I could do that right now.  That's exactly what this show is doing...and doing it masterfully.

Oh - and here's a "boring" detail. My father was #65 in that draft. 

Edited October 17, 2018 by CountryGirl

[milner]

I definitely lived through this era. Many of the old men being called smug and self satisfied were WWll or Korean vets.  They felt sadness that it had come to a lottery since they knew what war was like. And to accuse them of “hair envy” of the young men is ludicrous. JMO

[BuckeyeLou]

15 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

Meeting Jack's little brother was reason enough alone for me to watch, but truly, I was riveted for the entire episode and the Vietnam angle only added to this.

I am honestly trying to wrap my head around the thought that well, he's been DEAD for how long so who cares at this point? I cannot fathom not caring about anyone once they're gone, TV character or not. By that token, I guess Kevin shouldn't bother reaching out to Donnie Robinson, you know,  the man who taught Jack to just "breathe."

And he should also totally skip that trip to Vietnam. 

l, for one, want to understand more about how and why Jack became "Jack." I saw that despite his bitter, alcoholic father, he grew up to be a warm, loving husband and father. The love of his mother and brother clearly helped shape things in a different direction when it would have been so easy for Jack to repeat the same violent cycle illustrated by Stanley and, as we would learn, Stanley's own father.

Yet everything we thought we knew about the old mean drunk Stanley was shattered when we saw the flashback to the night of Nicky's birth. Stanley was a loving, doting husband and father, joking and laughing with little Jack.

I wonder if Jack remembered this. Most striking of all, when offered a flask by his father, he refused, saying: "Come on, Dad. You know I don't drink." So what happened between Nicky's birth and six or so years later? I want to know. 

Also, the shots of all those "lucky" babies born on October 18th. Wow...to know that many, if not all of those babies, grew up to go off to war, that Nick may have fought alongside men who were in the same room he was when he was born. If that doesn't move you, well, I don't know what will.

Seeing the beginnings of Jack being the larger than life husband and father when he taped Nicky's glasses and assured his worried little brother that he was really Superman in disguise.

Nicky taking Jack's words to heart when he stood up for his mother.

We see those moments echoed in Nicky's goodbye letter to Jack: It's my turn to save the day. I love you, Superman.

We see more of this when Jack, despite his heart condition (oh my own heart, hearing this!), enlists to take care of Nicky however he can because "it's his only job."

I also found parallels between Nicky and Kevin. The physical resemblance, for starters, with that thousand yard stare. 

But more than that...the struggles, the negative self-fulling prophecies, like Kevin's downward spiral last year (which had been a long time coming), harkening back to Nicky's letter to his family: I'm not getting out of here alive and I know that, but I'm not dying on anyone's terms but my own.  I'm living in hell on earth, family. Hell, I may have already died and I don't even know it.

Speaking of Kevin, remember this moment?

Well, we all know Jack said he got that necklace in Vietnam and the now we know from whom: the woman, presumably the mother of the little boy with the fish, was wearing it. 

Nicky's speech to Jack the day before he left for Vietnam: I wonder if things would make more sense if you looked at everything in reverse. Like, if you started at the end, and move backwards and try to figure out how you got there. I wish I could do that right now.  That's exactly what this show is doing...and doing it masterfully.

Oh - and here's a "boring" detail. My father was #65 in that draft. 

A beautiful post....its how I felt about this episode also...and yes, this show is unwinding the Pearson family saga...we see how generational issues are carried forward.   My husband too was drafted in 1970 and served in Vietnam, so I found this episode very interesting & emotional.

[callmebetty]

Wonderful post @Country girl

And great catch with the necklace. I knew there had to be more with that boy with the fish and his mother. I'm definitely hoping for another episode revisiting this.

[Arcadiasw]

21 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

 

Also, the shots of all those "lucky" babies born on October 18th. Wow...to know that many, if not all of those babies, grew up to go off to war, that Nick may have fought alongside men who were in the same room he was when he was born. If that doesn't move you, well, I don't know what will.

 

I checked. The lucky birthdate was 10/19. The scene of the babies was so sad. Really makes you wonder who lived, who died, who made it to Canada, who got deferred. Hope the wait isn't too long for it's conclusion but I'm guessing sweeps. 

[Katy M]

I only watched the first 10 minutes.  It felt like a Vietnam War movie (for obvious reaons) and I really hate those. I came to read the comments to see if I should watch the rest, and as they seem to be fairly mixed, I think I'll try to get by without watching. War absolutely sucks.

[ClareWalks]

Well, now I feel kind of weird about how to celebrate my husband's birthday tomorrow. October 18. Thank god he was born in the 80s.

On a lighter note, Jack really makes tighty-whities sexy again.

[Soup333]

1 hour ago, MrsWitter said:

My Dad wasn’t drafted for some undisclosed reason having to do with his mother’s influence. I actually went and looked up my Dad’s birthday on the draft- his number was pretty low (53). I believe he was able to avoid it earlier because he was in college and grad school, but I don’t know how he avoided the lottery (he was born in 1945 and my understanding is he was done with schooling by 1970). Makes me even more curious to know what my Grandmother maneuvered! If anyone wants to see the order of all the birthdates, here’s a link:

Speaking of the machinations people went through to get out of it - I found this article last night about the marriage exemption ending and how people were scrambling to get married at the last minute. It really made me wonder about the girls who were trying to back out at the last minute. I wonder if some of them were even dating or if they'd been offered some money by the man's family or pressured into doing it for a friend. Wonder how many of these marriages lasted.

Someone brought up The Things They Carried and this episode also reminded me of Shirley Jackson's short story The Lottery. I'm young enough to where the idea of a lottery has only positive connotations but I imagine it's different for those that lived through it. The entire concept of a draft lottery really does sound like something out of a dystopian novel but it's our history. 

[Empress1]

1 hour ago, Arcadiasw said:

I'm female but I put my birthdate in anyway. Only me and one of my brothers would have not been drafted and I have four brothers. As others have said, I can't imagine how scary that was watching that on TV. I'm younger generation but I like this episode but I also like war documentaries from Vietnam, World War II, etc.

I put in mine, my parents', and my brother's. Mine and my mother's would have been called if we were male; my brother's and my dad's would not. (Both my parents went to college - that's where they met - and my brother has asthma. I'm nearsighted; maybe that would have helped me?).

I didn't see that Tim O'Brien co-wrote this episode. The Things They Carried is excellent. (I took a class in school devoted solely to the Vietnam war and we read it there.) In high school I had a friend who was a few years older than I am, raised by a single mom. She would just say her dad had died when asked. Eventually as I got to know her, she told me her father descended into addiction after Vietnam and never came out, and eventually succumbed to the disease. I remember my parents and grandparents talking about the people they knew - friends, neighbors - who lost people to the war, either because they were killed or because they came back and were never the same.

Someone talked about seeing old men deciding the fate of young men, and I thought that's not unlike what's happening now, given the age of many of our representatives and political leaders. I also had the thought that's it's not unlike The Hunger Games, on a much larger scale.  

When Jack's friend said he only had 90 days left, I was like, ok, he's dead. He's like the grizzled old cop in the movie who's a week away from retirement and then gets shot. And then when they showed him on the ground and he was talking about his foot, I realized he was the person that Kevin emailed in the last episode so I was at least relieved that he lived. I assume since we've now seen the old and young versions, that he and Kevin will meet, and I'm looking forward to seeing that. (Zoe can stay home.)

[PRgal]

11 hours ago, Veronica said:

Would your draft number be called? Type in the month & day you were born to see if you would have been drafted. 

2 minutes. 2 damn minutes. 

I entered my birthdate (even though I'm female, Canadian and born well after the draft ended), my husband's and my son's.  The boys would have been called.  Me?  Nope.  

[MsChicklet]

While the title of the episode was "Vietnam," there was so much more to the episode than the war. It gave us more of Jack's childhood and youth, and what set him on the path to be who he was. So many little things came up. Seeing his father so calm, nice, and sober the night of Nick's birth, it hits home what a betrayal his future behavior was for Jack. It shows why he was so ashamed and embarrassed about his drinking and behavior leading up to his and Rebecca's brief separation, because he had acted like his father and grandfather.

When the doctor said to do 100 pushups, it made me think of the time Jack did pushups at Randall's martial arts class. 

Two of MrChicklet's much-older cousins came of age during Vietnam. One graduated high school in 1963 and joined the ROTC in college. It allowed him to graduate as an officer, avoid serving on the ground in Vietnam, and led to a long and successful Air Force career. The other cousin graduated in 1965. He went straight into college and fought like hell to stay in, in spite of struggling both academically and financially. As the son of a working-class single mom, he knew he was going straight to infantry if he left school and got drafted.

ETA: Yep, he would have been drafted. Looked up his draft number: 149 in 1970.

Edited October 17, 2018 by MsChicklet

[hookedontv]

This was a really hard episode for me to watch. Vietnam scenes, and any war scenes for that matter, make me unbelievably scared and stressed. It’s just too intense for me and I found myself FF thru some. I did love knowing where Jack got the “breathe” expression. I think we all take away positive things from people we love and use it in our own lives. 

The war scenes, coupled with Jack & Nicky’s angry and abusive dad just about put me over the edge. I appreciated seeing jack’s dad as a seemingly caring man early on but god what a terrible person he became. My own dad wasn’t a drinker but as a kid I was absolutely on edge when he came home from work, just waiting for the anger to explode. It could be scary.

At least we didn’t have to hear about Kate’s weight for once-that was a nice change :-)

Edited October 17, 2018 by hookedontv

[TV Diva Queen]

12 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Elliott from Will & Grace!  <3 

Ha, I didn't even recognize him from that. I recognized him the I'm Dying Up Here.  

[TV Diva Queen]

2 hours ago, MrsWitter said:

I didn’t live through the Vietnam era, but had heard bits and pieces about it from my parents. I found the whole episode captivating. The way my mother talked about how many boys she knew who were shipped off and her sadness about her friends-this episode made me reflect on those conversations in a new way. I can’t imagine the terror it was for those alive at that time. It was really well done. In a weird way, it’s actually one of my favorite episodes.

 

My Dad wasn’t drafted for some undisclosed reason having to do with his mother’s influence. I actually went and looked up my Dad’s birthday on the draft- his number was pretty low (53). I believe he was able to avoid it earlier because he was in college and grad school, but I don’t know how he avoided the lottery (he was born in 1945 and my understanding is he was done with schooling by 1970). Makes me even more curious to know what my Grandmother maneuvered! If anyone wants to see the order of all the birthdates, here’s a link:

 

http://www.historynet.com/whats-your-number.htm

 

ETA: I just saw that @Veronica linked to a great website already. The one I’m linking to is just a chart. Thanks Veronica for posting that link- I like how it offers more explanation (“if you had been born...”)

Wow, that link is bone chilling,  my female birthday, my husband and one brother we all in the twenties, my other brother's was in the 300's.  I've heard about the lottery alot in my life, (I'm 54) and I'm ashamed to say, that until This is Us, I had NO IDEA that this was how it was done.  I couldn't imagine having a son at that time and having to sit through all those numbers for what I'm sure was hours.  Barbaric.  

[Katy M]

48 minutes ago, Empress1 said:

(Both my parents went to college - that's where they met - and my brother has asthma. I'm nearsighted; maybe that would have helped me?).

I think you have to be pretty near-sighted.  I think I would be excluded for that because I am more or less blind without my glasses.  My dad was 4-F'd because he's color blind.  I guess you got to make sure you're shooting at the right uniforms?  My maternal grandfather was kept out of WWII because of scoliosis, which seems weird to me, because that didn't seem to affect much else that he did. In later life, he developed asthma and emphysima which also would have kept him out.  I forgot the technical term but my other grandfather didn't have to go because of "necessary work." 

And semi-funny story about the efficiency, or lack thereof, of the military.  I had a BF who was in the Navy.  And he said that while he was out at sea, he got a telegram on the naval ship that if he didn't register for the draft they were going to court martial him.

Edited October 17, 2018 by Katy M

[Empress1]

4 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I think you have to be pretty near-sighted. 

I am. My parents and I both need vision correction; my brother never has, that asshole. :) I keep telling him it's coming for him.

26 minutes ago, hookedontv said:

I did love knowing where Jack got the “breathe” expression. I think we all take away positive things from people we love and use it in our own lives. 

I forgot about this! Me too. I hope Kevin and the friend (I missed his name) talk about it. I would love to hear that, in his position.

[CountryGirl]

1 hour ago, callmebetty said:

Wonderful post @Country girl

And great catch with the necklace. I knew there had to be more with that boy with the fish and his mother. I'm definitely hoping for another episode revisiting this.

Not the best screen-cap, I realize, and we only see it for a split-second but it was long enough for me to remember I had seen it before.

Not only did Jack reveal he got it in Vietnam, he said he got it from "someone very special." Hmmm,...

Show creator Dan Fogelman reveals that season three will have many more episodes about Vietnam (which I'm very much looking forward to - suck it, haters!) and that most of those episodes, including Kevin's trip there, were shot in Vietnam, making this all the more poignant.

[Jodithgrace]

My husband's draft number was so high, I used to joke that they would draft women and children before him. But his best friend was #20 and he had to fake diabetes to get out of it. Another friend of his went to Canada. It was a very difficult time to live through. A college deferment only lasted as long as you were in school. 

Still, i found this episode very predictable. As soon as Jack's black friend started going on about his 90 days to go and his plans for the future, I knew he was a goner. My only surprise is that he wasn't actually killed. I predicted every other the beat in the episode as well, especially that Nick would be missing when Jack woke up in the motel. It didn't help that we already know that Nick would go to Vietnam and that Jack would go also. I was glad that that the established Jack's heart issues, though I agree it was a bit of overkill. Still, Overkill is this show's trademark. 

I, too, wondered about the fate of those other babies born on October 18th. 

[Arcadiasw]

1 hour ago, Empress1 said:

I put in mine, my parents', and my brother's. Mine and my mother's would have been called if we were male; my brother's and my dad's would not. (Both my parents went to college - that's where they met - and my brother has asthma. I'm nearsighted; maybe that would have helped me?).

 

When Jack's friend said he only had 90 days left, I was like, ok, he's dead. He's like the grizzled old cop in the movie who's a week away from retirement and then gets shot. 

You might have been drafted but hopefully would avoid combat like my Dad. My Dad volunteered for the army at 18 but was rejected because he didn't pass the physical. He had a limp due to a high school football injury but the army drafted him a few years later. Dad said the army was desperate for men. Because of his limp, he didn't see combat and was a cook and delivered supplies to bases. He said he drove like a speed demon in the jungles. (Lol) He did see dead and injured men but considered himself lucky to not have suffered PTSD like some men.  Came back with a potty mouth according to my Mom. 

I was hoping for once the show would give us fake out and the guy make it but when his leg was blown away I remembered he was the man Kevin emailed.

[Blakeston]

8 hours ago, JMarie99 said:

Roxie, I couldn’t agree with you more, and once I read your comment I wasn’t able to go on and read any more, fearing I would read others’ comments from those who were “bored.”  I too lived through the Vietnam era. It was hell. Those before us are called “The Greatest Generation” (which they deserved), but at least their enemy was well defined. The Vietnam “conflict” was a different story. Fortunately none of my friends died in the Vietnam “conflict” - a few were drafted but fortunately sent to Germany - one served combat in Vietnam and was never the same afterwards. God bless the younger generation who never had to fear the draft and who were bored by this episode. They truly are the lucky ones. 

I'm very interested in Vietnam, and I was very glad to see that Tim O'Brien had a writing credit on this episode.

But I was bored by a lot of it. It didn't teach me anything about Vietnam that I didn't already know, and frankly, I couldn't stand all the cliches they were throwing at us.

A soldier boasting about how soon he's going home, and how bright his athletic future is - right before his foot gets blown off?! Are you freaking kidding me?

[Ohiopirate02]

5 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

I'm very interested in Vietnam, and I was very glad to see that Tim O'Brien had a writing credit on this episode.

But I was bored by a lot of it. It didn't teach me anything about Vietnam that I didn't already know, and frankly, I couldn't stand all the cliches they were throwing at us.

A soldier boasting about how soon he's going home, and how bright his athletic future is - right before his foot gets blown off?! Are you freaking kidding me?

I hated that war movie cliche.  Also when the soldiers throwing the football did not listen to Jack about stopping, I  knew that something bad was going to happen.  Those beats are way too obvious and should not have been included. 

[axlmadonna]

1 hour ago, ClareWalks said:

On a lighter note, Jack really makes tighty-whities sexy again.

I may or may not have paused on this frame. Just for a bathroom break!

[Neurochick]

14 hours ago, Roxie said:

I'm guessing that those who found this episode boring didn't live through the Vietnam era.  I found my stomach going into knots and my fingernails digging into my palms during the draft lottery scene. It was horrendous.

Yes, the draft lottery scene really got me.  I had a friend whose brother would have gone to Canada has his number come up; I knew a man who became a teacher because he didn't want to "fight for Lyndon Johnson."  I had an ex boyfriend who was in Vietnam, he volunteered and was a medic;  and I worked with a young woman whose father went to Canada.  

Edited October 17, 2018 by Neurochick

[Pallas]

1 hour ago, Empress1 said:

I'm nearsighted; maybe that would have helped me?

Nope. My brother was effectively immobile without his glasses in 1972,  and only a few increments above legally blind. He passed his draft physical.

[Aloeonatable]

6 hours ago, himela said:

If I wanted to watch a series about war, I would do that. There are many things I hate watching and the worst for me is war stuff. I didn't watch this episode. You have so many interesting characters with great potential of stories and you keep insisting to show us only one character (a dead one) and his life 47 years ago. I mean, who cares?

I care. I also am patient and understand that this series will probably last at least 3-4 more years, so I can enjoy stand-alone episodes. Maybe it is because I was in college during the Vietnam era and knew many who went to war. These events, political, social and otherwise, have an effect on our lives and the lives of our loved ones. This is a show about a family and the patriarch who they loved very much. This war helped make Jack the man that they loved, so I am glad they are showing this part of his life. 

[Scarlett45]

I thought it was an insightful episode even though we got no present day scenes. 

I wanted to touch on Jack and his Dad (Dad Pearson), and GrandDad Pearson. I am not surprised to see that his Dad was a seemingly decent kind guy once upon a time, most likely he was or he wouldn’t have been able to court/marry his wife. I think that the big difference between Jack and Dad Pearson is that Dad Pearson let his addiction cloud his ability to enjoy anything about his family/his life, whereas even through the throws of Jack’s drinking, I never got the impression that he wasn’t grateful for his family; where as Dad Pearson and GrandDad Pearson probably saw their families as burdens/the reason for their drinking, Jack seemed to get his demons were about HIM (probably why he could stay sober for long stretches of time, and would’ve stayed sober after the fire if he had lived). 

 

I suppose this can remind people of real life situations, where a parent was an alcoholic/dependent drinker, but parented through the addiction leaving kids to say “Mom/Dad had a problem but they loved us, we wish we could’ve had them without the addiction though.” Compared to people who’s addiction to alcohol took away their ability to parent or have any sort of emotional intimacy with another person. Does that make sense?

[doodlebug]

10 hours ago, Shorty186 said:

So would Nicky having bad eye sight not have excluded him from the draft?

Nope, not unless he was legally blind.  Lots of people wear glasses.

[doodlebug]

9 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

 

Nicky was born in 1948 and his mother was shown in labor, but weren't they still doing twilight births back then (where they basically drugged the mothers and then when they woke up, they were presented with their babies)? I thought that was pretty common up through the 1960s.

Not every mother got twilight sleep back then just as not everyone gets an epidural nowadays. 

[Biggie B]

Quote

I'm guessing that those who found this episode boring didn't live through the Vietnam era.

I am always captivated by anything to do with the Civil War, and I wasn't around then - so I'm not sure that having missed the Vietnam era means you're going to be unable to relate to the horrors of the time. It may well be that this episode was simply boring to some viewers, for reasons that have nothing to do with the time in which it was set. I found it a bit plodding as well. It was so heavy-handed. As has already been mentioned, it was beyond obvious that the soldier who had 90 days left would either die or be seriously injured. The two guys tossing the football - of course that wasn't going to end well. I was actually surprised that the soldier who ultimately tossed the football in the lake didn't kill himself. And *of course* Nick wasn't going to get to Canada. Additionally, I didn't think this episode showed me anything about the Vietnam experience that hasn't already been so amazingly portrayed by many other books, movies, and documentaries. In fairness, the episode was about Jack, not about Vietnam - Vietnam obviously impacted him profoundly, but so could have myriad other situations in his life. Vietnam is the vehicle being used, but it's such a loaded setting that it came off as a bit too obvious - truly, was there anyone who had an uplifting, positive, terrific Vietnam experience? Parents, siblings, friends of soldiers - the soldiers themselves - the country as a whole - it is beyond obvious that almost everyone suffered on some level, mentally, physically, and beyond.  Yet, I get it - tragedy is a rich, rich subject matter with an infinite number of layers and depictions. It's far more riveting than happiness.

One thing that sort of bugged me was - here we were, seeing in detail all the awful things Jack endured and experienced before and during Vietnam, and yet...no one but we viewers know what happened, or how it affected him. Perhaps he shared a few details with Rebecca but who knows. Certainly his children knew next to nothing about their uncle, grandfather, and great-grandfather. So even though we are gaining all this insight, none of the other characters have it. Perhaps Kevin will learn a bit more as he delves into Jack's Vietnam experience, but that's not the same as if Jack had actually told Kevin what he went through. All the blatant Superman references, including a Superman doll in Nick's bedroom - lost on Jack's wife and kids. They know their dad was a "hero" to them in many ways, but right now, they have no idea why. I find this frustrating.

I will admit I'm curious to know what relationship developed between Jack and the Vietnamese woman with whom he exchanged a meaningful look. If Kevin finds a half-sibling in the last episode of the season - oy!!!

I didn't NOT enjoy the episode but I do feel it was sluggish at times. I hope Vietnam isn't re-visited for the rest of the season. Perhaps a few more scenes here and there, but if they do more Jack-only Vietnam episodes - no thanks. 

[Mountainair]

I thought this was one of my favorite episodes and will help viewers relate more with Kevin's upcoming story line. I also tend to soak in anything war related with the upmost fascination. 

I randomly just listened to a podcast about How the Draft Works by Stuff You Should Know so it was pretty crazy to see it actually play out on this show. Neither my dad or Uncles were old enough for the draft during Vietnam but I did put in my young boys birthdays and they both would have been called. One would have been #8 and one would have been #185.My husband would not have been called.  God- I can't imagine the fear of being a parent or a potential draftee watching that shit go down like that.  

[doodlebug]

6 hours ago, gameshowjunkie said:

Nicky was supposed to be what, 22? If he wanted to be a doctor why didn't he go to med school? We see his room full of books and science paraphernalia. Wonder if he finished his undergrad. Has it been established that Jack never went to college at all? I was too young to be aware of it at the time but I feel like a lot of young men went to or stayed in school to get deferments. 

I knew about men getting numbers but I had never seen them called out on TV. Reminded me of The Hunger Games. Barbaric.

There were educational deferments, but eventually, sometime between the ages of 18-26, a man was entered into the lottery.  Initially, there was a deferment for all undergraduate studies, but this ended in the early 70's as EVERYBODY got enrolled in community college or whatever to stay out of the draft.  Once a man got his bachelor's, he could go to graduate school briefly, like a couple of semesters, but then had to enter the lottery.  The deferment for education also was time limited, so a guy couldn't try to stretch his college days out until he was older than 26, either.

BTW, there was also a Doctor Draft.  Obviously, not many men between the ages of 18-26 were physicians and the military needed doctors.  So, a guy could be deferred all the way through medical school and internship, I think, but then, he would be subject to the doctor draft and would be forced to serve ala the docs on MASH, most of whom were draftees.  Some docs could stay stateside and finish residencies in needed specialties, but many were shipped out to serve as General Medical Officers in the field.  I know a couple of physicians, now pushing 70, who were drafted and served in Viet Nam.

We never heard what Jack's brother was doing, but, even if he was enrolled in college; it might not have saved him.  I think we're supposed to think that, due to their hardscrabble, bluecollar background, they didn't attend college.  Weirdly enough, in those days, there were plenty of government funded programs to give kids from poorer backgrounds money for college (look up BEOG, Basic Educational Opportunities Grant).  I got through undergrad on it along with state funded grants and a scholarship.  Ronald Reagan essentially ended the program during his time in the White House by refusing to fund it adequately.

[Neurochick]

I thought the end scene, when Nick was born was interesting because Jack's dad wasn't an asshole, but it looked like his grandfather was, plus he was drinking.

Edited October 17, 2018 by Neurochick

[ProudMary]

I'm sure that this will be an unpopular opinion, but I think Jack was flat-out wrong to forfeit his 4-F status and enlist for duty in Vietnam.  The odds that he would even get anywhere near his brother were very high against him.  The fact that the show makes it happen is quite a stretch IMO.  Also--and I say this as the mother of two sons--why would he ever do that to his mother?  Of course, she was frantic with worry about Nicky.  Now she has to be frantic with worry about Jack too?  Honestly, Jack's savior complex here is selfish and misplaced.  

[kili]

Quote

 I was actually surprised that the soldier who ultimately tossed the football in the lake didn't kill himself.

I'm worried about what he is going to do without Jack there to supervise him. He's got a lot of pent up anger at the locals. His reaction to a child giving a fish to Jack was a bit extreme. I can imagine what it's like to constantly be on guard and not knowing who the enemy is. Who is in charge while Jack is on his secret mission?

Did they give him a name? For some reason I think his nickname is "Moose". "Moose" and "Squirrel" were playing football? Where were Boris and Natasha?

I'm curious about Nicki's Article 15 and why it has lasted so long. Nicki write's a letter home, Jack reads it, tricks the medical team, goes through basic training and ascends to the rank of Sergeant and Nicki is still on latrine duty? If you can stay in camp, maybe that's not a bad gig? Does it extend your stay? Sure, he's still a private, but he's staying safe? I'd wash latrine's all day if it kept me from being shot at.

I get the sense that Jack's Dad really doesn't like Nicki. He doesn't like anybody, but he seems especially harsh on Nicki.

[Ohiopirate02]

10 minutes ago, ProudMary said:

I'm sure that this will be an unpopular opinion, but I think Jack was flat-out wrong to forfeit his 4-F status and enlist for duty in Vietnam.  The odds that he would even get anywhere near his brother were very high against him.  The fact that the show makes it happen is quite a stretch IMO.  Also--and I say this as the mother of two sons--why would he ever do that to his mother?  Of course, she was frantic with worry about Nicky.  Now she has to be frantic with worry about Jack too?  Honestly, Jack's savior complex here is selfish and misplaced.  

I completely agree with you.  In reality by the time Jack could get to the same base as his brother in Vietnam, Nicky would have been transferred somewhere else.   The military has a logic completely its own and truly Jack would never have been anywhere near his brother.  He would have stood a better chance of running into Nick somewhere when they were on leave. 

[DFWGina]

11 hours ago, Drumpf1737 said:

I loved that the doctor mentioned Jack's heart irregularity--good job continuity cops. 

If he had been Jack's dr since childhood, shouldn't/wouldn't he have already noticed the heart defect?   But I did like the foreshadowing....  (is it foreshadowing if we already know a heart issue takes him out? LOL)

23 minutes ago, Biggie B said:

One thing that sort of bugged me was - here we were, seeing in detail all the awful things Jack endured and experienced before and during Vietnam, and yet...no one but we viewers know what happened, or how it affected him. Perhaps he shared a few details with Rebecca but who knows. Certainly his children knew next to nothing about their uncle, grandfather, and great-grandfather. So even though we are gaining all this insight, none of the other characters have it. 

My dad was in ROTC in college and commissioned as an officer in the US Army in the late 60s.  He was eventually sent to Vietnam when I was a baby and fortunately came home safely after a tour.  He was in the reserves for a period of time afterward (not the same as the reserves today where you do weekends).    He has not spoken one word about Vietnam to his family (parents, wife, child, etc) and none of us would ever ask him given he doesn't share it freely.   I can only imagine it was a horrible time and something he doesn't wish to talk about.   I find that part about Jack's experience to be very realistic as it mirror's my dad's experience and mine as his child.