S02.E02: Reunion

[Tara Ariano]

Quote

Why don't we start at the beginning?

 

 

[Primetimer]

Dolores shoots a bunch of guys and goes on at least two field trips. Get all the gory details in our latest EPIC OLD-SCHOOL RECAP!

View the full article

[AimingforYoko]

Hi, Giancarlo. Bye, Giancarlo. Glad I wasn't spoiled for his cameo, disappointed his stay was so short.

Also, a little underwhelmed by Delores and Maeve crossing paths, but I have a feeling they may speak again.

[ShadowHunter]

Teddy is still not 100% on board.  He may know he is not free?

Logan has become even more of a drunk and drugs as well.  I wonder if he is dead?

Hope to see more of Maeve and her crew next week.

Teddy raises his gun ha but so does Hector. 

Love hate no matter the reason William had to show Delores what he was building.  Ego.

[mac123x]

"This game is meant for you, but you must play it alone"
Me:  "Holy fuck"
[mass suicide]  
Me:  Cackling like a madman.  MiB shooting El Lazo 3-4 more times just for spite was hilarious.

The sales pitch with Angela and Logan was continuity breaking for me.  All the hosts at that party were indistinguishable from human, at least to Logan's inept and drunken eyes, but they're all first generation mechanical robots like Bill "shall we drink to the lady with the white shoes" the bartender.  He was obviously artificial.

 

The whole "this is how Delos invested in WestWorld" was interesting but ultimately I don't care.  Its the danger of any prequel flashback:  sometimes "how we got here" isn't that interesting.  How did Daddy Delos get convinced to invest?  Meh, I don't care, the fact is that he did invest.  I'm mildly curious what young!William said to convince him, because it's obviously got something to do with the intel that they're gathering in the secret bunker where Charlotte and Bernard were last episode.  But still, meh.

 

What thing full of spendor did middle-aged!William show Dolores at the end?  It looked like some earthmoving equipment, but her final scene with Teddy implied that it was a weapon.  A way to make the suddenly-appearing-sea appear?

[Lithogirl]

What is happening on Angela’s head?

[The Companion]

This episode settled in a bit more, which was a good thing. Loved the meeting of Dolores and Maeve. I think some part of me expected them to team up (and they may still), but this was much more in character for both of them. 

Poor Teddy. Discovering you have been killed over and over again for someone's entertainment can't be fun. He took it well, but I guess that is the way the hosts are built anyway. They have to be able to improvise.

The scenes in the "real" world were aweome. Loved the reveal that it was in the past and not the future. The cocktail party was cool, and it was neat to see the hosts in another context. I thought the glass cleaning gesture in particular was a nod to Bernard in a really cool way.

Loved the question: what happens if the world doesn't reset? The hosts are starting to deviate. Even the MiB will not be able to predict what they do. 

Was Dolores aware enough to hear those conversations? It seemed implied that she was gathering information in freeze mode. 

[djlynch]

55 minutes ago, AimingforYoko said:

Hi, Giancarlo. Bye, Giancarlo. Glad I wasn't spoiled for his cameo, disappointed his stay was so short.

It was kept under wraps enough that I went to IMDB specifically looking for whether or not that was him and he wasn't listed. And that scene was so dark that I could barely see his face, which is a rant that I'm having about more and more TV shows. I don't know if it's a trend or if I'm just turning into an old fart.

[Mindthinkr]

Too many actors mumble or speak in hushed tones. I may have to rewatch with closed captioning. 

MiB stated he was going somewhere that he had made. Anyone have a theory where? I wonder if his ultimate fantasy was to create a world himself but he doesn’t know if he’ll make it through as it was fantasy and he doesn’t know how to live out the reality of it. 

[enchantingmonkey]

How did Caprica 6 get into Old Man Delos' retirement party???  Watch out, she's a Cylon!!!  

[WatchrTina]

1 hour ago, AimingforYoko said:

Hi, Giancarlo. Bye, Giancarlo. Glad I wasn't spoiled for his cameo, disappointed his stay was so short.

Who is Giancarlo?  There isn't a character or actor with that name listed in IMDb.

Every time the screen faded to black I was disappointed because I was afraid the episode was over.  That shows I was engrossed but on the other hand the fact that it happened so often shows how choppy this episode was. That being said -- I can't want to see what happens next.

Here's a link to a YouTube video showing still photos of those  big-ass mining machines we saw in the last scene.

[LittleIggy]

2 hours ago, AimingforYoko said:

Hi, Giancarlo. Bye, Giancarlo. Glad I wasn't spoiled for his cameo, disappointed his stay was so short.

Also, a little underwhelmed by Delores and Maeve crossing paths, but I have a feeling they may speak again.

I was disappointed about Giancarlo being a drive-by, too. Wonder if we’ll see Zahn McClarnon again. I was like “Hanzee”!

I don’t get the fascination with Delores. I find her boring. Vengefulness doesn’t make her interesting. Can’t the dude with the tablet do something to her or her flunkies?

My faves are Barnard, Maeve and the MIB version of William (love me some Ed Harris).

Edited April 30, 2018 by LittleIggy

[Quilt Fairy]

8 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

Who is Giancarlo?  There isn't a character or actor with that name listed in IMDb.

Giancarlo Esposito (aka Gus Fring from Breaking Bad) was the "new" El Lazo.   Don't know about IMDB, but I did see his name in the credits.

10 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

Every time the screen faded to black I was disappointed because I was afraid the episode was over.  That shows I was engrossed but on the other hand the fact that it happened so often shows how choppy this episode was

Choppy is a good description.  There was way too much flashback exposition for me.  Some of that was needed, but not that much and not all at once.  I'd prefer little snippets here and there.  Ironic as it may be, it seemed like the showrunners were more interested in pandering to internet theories than telling a coherent story. 

William's change (what's the opposite of a redemption arc?) seemed unrealistic to me.  He turned into a total prick pretty quickly.  "How could I have fallen in love with you? You're just a thing."

How does a guy with the last name of Delos have a heavy Scottish brogue?  That was weird.

[LittleIggy]

47 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

Who is Giancarlo?  There isn't a character or actor with that name listed in IMDb.

Every time the screen faded to black I was disappointed because I was afraid the episode was over.  That shows I was engrossed but on the other hand the fact that it happened so often shows how choppy this episode was. That being said -- I can't want to see what happens next.

Here's a link to a YouTube video showing still photos of those  big-ass mining machines we saw in the last scene.

Giancarlo was El Laso, the guy MIB was talking to in that town. All the hosts shoot themselves, then MIB shot him.

Edited April 30, 2018 by LittleIggy

[numbnut]

1 hour ago, LittleIggy said:

I don’t get the fascination with Delores. I find her boring. Vengefulness doesn’t make her interesting.

You're not alone. Her vengeful persona in particular is one note.

I like that we now get to see the real world but I don't appreciate the show aping Blade Runner with the Vangelis-like music and the patterned bricks in Decker's, er, Arnold's home. Peter Mullan! Wasted in a limited role. Too bad. He's a powerhouse like Hopkins. Hanzee! Nice to see Giancarlo too. And Jonathan Tucker! Haven't seen him in years. OK, enough about casting. I'm guessing Ford organized that meeting with Logan, but why was no one around to supervise the hosts? Sloppy and dangerous. Why does Delores need a guide to find other hosts? Why can't she download info like Maeve? Why aren't the fringe hosts also in rebellion mode? Was William grabbing the guests' DNA to blackmail them about their "sins"? How does that work exactly? What weapon did Delores discover in the real world? A nuke? So many more questions with this ep.

Edited April 30, 2018 by numbnut

[QuantumMechanic]

Sacrilege -- I didn't rewatch season 1 before season 2 started :), so I'm still trying to remember stuff.

Am I correct in assuming this year's pre-MIB-William scenes (so far) are from *after* the season 1 pre-MIB-William scenes?

And what's so weapon-y about digging equipment?  Would love to know how Dolores (even with 1000 or more robots in her army) plans to take over the whole earth and why she's so confident about it.  Unless she figures she can tap into the blackmail info collected by the park that the conversation between William and Delos in the park (while the hosts were frozen) and the MIB's monologue to Lawrence at the bar strongly hinted at.

Edited April 30, 2018 by QuantumMechanic

[ottoDbusdriver]

58 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Giancarlo Esposito (aka Gus Fring from Breaking Bad) was the "new" El Lazo.   Don't know about IMDB, but I did see his name in the credits.

Sidebar: He also played Mike Giardello on 'Homicide: Life on the Street' twenty years ago -- that's when I first encountered him as an actor.  Can't believe he's 60.
End sidebar

Surprised there was no follow-up to the Charlotte Hale secret bunker scenes from last week, or the security forces/Bernard at the lake with all the dead hosts.

As for the digging equipment, maybe they were digging the foundations for a weapon complex -- and it will turn out that wasn't the only time William took her to see it.

[Quilt Fairy]

The park must have an awfully poor communications system if all hell is breaking loose in HQ but techs in the refurbishment post are slodging through their shift without a care in the world.  Also, we've never seen a refurbishment post before.  Aside from the bunker where Arnold talked to Dolores, every damaged host appeared to be taken to HQ.  

[TrininisaScorp]

Jimmi Simpson gets a gold star from me.  His work with Dolores in the online/offline very clearly linked the younger William with The Man in Black.  IMO, he embodied the Ed Harris take, and goodness knows that isn't easy, as Ed, for me, gives one of the (if not THE) strongest performances on the show.  

I'm a little underwhelmed by Dolores this go-round...it really is very 1 note, while I missed Maeve quite a bit.  I didn't love the 2 bad ass ladies didn't have a seat and a chat; I think it would have been a smart use of their resources to work together in some capacity.  

In my house, we got a little shock from seeing Giancarlo as El Lazo!  It was such a great, random cameo.   

Oh, Logan.  He's such a id driven, prick.  That cocktail scene was very well done.  They clearly did their homework on Delos the Younger,  and knew how to reel him in.  

This is such a mindful show.  You really need to watch it twice; once to take it all in, and again to fit the pieces and timeline together.   

[Casually Observant]

3 hours ago, djlynch said:

It was kept under wraps enough that I went to IMDB specifically looking for whether or not that was him and he wasn't listed. And that scene was so dark that I could barely see his face, which is a rant that I'm having about more and more TV shows. I don't know if it's a trend or if I'm just turning into an old fart.

Speaking of your TV picture seemingly turning dark, it may be as simple as needing a new bulb in your TV.  We had a 56" DLP TV and when the bulb began to fade, it did so very slowly over months. We realized many scenes were too dark and thought the same thing - getting old/eyes failing/TV wearing out.  After doing a little reading about the situation, we decided to order a new replacement bulb for about $80.00. We installed it ourselves (easy) and the TV picture was 100% improved, like a brand new set with every scene bright and discernable.  Perhaps that is all you need.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

The mass suicide was this week's big OH SHIT moment for me. On the other hand, it cracks me up that Robert had so many of the characters programmed to tell the MIB to go fuck himself.

ITA that only getting Giancarlo for one brief scene was exciting and then disappointing, but I'll take what I can get.

So far, Dolores is winning the strategy battle. She was smart enough to take one of the techs with her so he can program the other hosts to fight with her. The MIB is not doing so great at recruiting just yet (aside from Lawrence, that is).

Edited April 30, 2018 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Ellaria]

4 hours ago, TrininisaScorp said:

Jimmi Simpson gets a gold star from me.  His work with Dolores in the online/offline very clearly linked the younger William with The Man in Black.  IMO, he embodied the Ed Harris take, and goodness knows that isn't easy, as Ed, for me, gives one of the (if not THE) strongest performances on the show.  

I'm a little underwhelmed by Dolores this go-round...it really is very 1 note, while I missed Maeve quite a bit.  I didn't love the 2 bad ass ladies didn't have a seat and a chat; I think it would have been a smart use of their resources to work together in some capacity.  

In my house, we got a little shock from seeing Giancarlo as El Lazo!  It was such a great, random cameo.   

Oh, Logan.  He's such a id driven, prick.  That cocktail scene was very well done.  They clearly did their homework on Delos the Younger,  and knew how to reel him in.  

This is such a mindful show.  You really need to watch it twice; once to take it all in, and again to fit the pieces and timeline together.   

Yes, Simpson did a great job of bridging the gap between young William and the MIB. And I also agree about Ed Harris. He looks like he is having a great time playing a sadistic cowboy with a death wish.

I'm sure that we will get more Dolores/Maeve scenes but I don't think that their short-term goals are the same. The other hosts - those with "free will" - may not necessarily agree with Dolores' methods, especially Teddy. Right now, not all hosts have achieved independence. By traveling with a tech, Dolores can now have them join her cause. How long before the hosts then rebel against her?

Loved Giancarlo's appearance, however brief. And Zahn McClarnon at the cocktail party!

And we now know that it was young William's idea to gather guest data (and presumably then their DNA). How much did Ford know about it? I assume that Ford remained one step ahead of Delos' machinations.

[Haleth]

The guy that met Logan with Angela and brought him to the party.  Was that the host that William cut the skull of when he first found the maze map?

8 hours ago, The Companion said:

Loved the meeting of Dolores and Maeve

Me too.  Love that they are so indifferent to each other and have their own agendas.  I agree that Dolores is the least interesting character on the show.

I didn't realize that was Giancarlo Esposito until reading here.  Cool!  Except. well, see ya.  But yay for the return of Lawrence!  He and William make a great team.

7 hours ago, enchantingmonkey said:

How did Caprica 6 get into Old Man Delos' retirement party???  Watch out, she's a Cylon!!!  

I gasped.  Was that a deliberate nod to BSG to have a host that looks so much like Six?

[Johnny Dollar]

There’s no way that Giancarlo Esposito’s appearance is just a one off. Let’s hope Dolores uses her pet technician to revive him. 

[DarkRaichu]

- Interesting how Dolores had less power over the hosts than Maeve.  Maeve had admin access and could freeze, manipulate, and even put a host to "dreamless sleep".  Dolores needed a tech to revive dead hosts and had to "reason" with the hosts.  Both were aware they were bots. 
Which of the 2 is more "free" ??

- This was how Angela became the "face" of Westworld (ie. her face was all over the ad when William 1st visit).  When Logan was trying to convince William, he used the same host that convinced him to greet William.  Why William? I think William was a test case for Logan on how to ease Delos Sr to accepting Westworld, trying to convince someone "who did not care about the future" 

- Basically MiB had to play the game like Dolores did.  He had to convince the hosts to follow him (a la Lawrence), but not force them (a la El Lazo).

- The actor who played new El Lazo was great. I have seen him in a few things and he always commanded certain presence in his roles.

- And just a side lol. We saw 4 timelines this episode: shortly before William visit (ie Angela's private show to Logan & Dolores visited with Arnold), after William's visit (ie. convincing Delos Sr), after Delos bought Westworld (ie Delos Sr retirement party + William building a weapon), and present time (Dolores, Maeve, & MiB) :D :D :D

 

ETA for speculation ;)

Spoiler

Wouldn't it be fun if the Colonel Dolores was going to meet turned out to be a host version of Delos Sr. ??? 

Edited April 30, 2018 by DarkRaichu

[Mindthinkr]

When Dolores went outside at the coattail party to see all the lights and came upon Logan lounging on a chaise, I noticed he had six marks on the inside of his elbow like he had just used some intravenous drugs. Was he an addict? He also seemed to be holding a pen - like apparatus. 

I loved all the piano music in this episode. I wonder which world I’d have to go to to meet Beethoven or Chopin?

Edited April 30, 2018 by Mindthinkr
Had a name wrong

[zobot81]

So, I have this theory...

Spoiler

The hosts have essentially taken over the real world, almost completely (in the current timeline).

If this is true, it stands to reason that the over-arching theme is the inevitable corruptibility of machines built in our image -- and that robots enslaving robots is the end-game.  Is it a novel premise? Probably not.  But it would make sense that they would continue to harvest real human DNA, in order to manufacture new models...right? I guess it doesn't mean that humans running Westworld would not be motivated to create new hosts, but I find it less plausible, on an ethical level. 

 

53 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

And just a side lol. We saw 4 timelines this episode: shortly before William visit (ie Angela's private show to Logan & Dolores visited with Arnold), after William's visit (ie. convincing Delos Sr), after Delos bought Westworld (ie Delos Sr retirement party + William building a weapon), and present time (Dolores, Maeve, & MiB) :D :D :D

The jump in timelines is problematic for me.  But thank you for clearing some of it up -- I honestly have no idea when is when this season.

Cheers!

[poeticlicensed]

I guess I am the only person in the world who didn't watch Breaking Bad, so Giancarlo whatever his name is meant nothing to me other than the character he played. 

I really liked the episode and it definitely helped fill in some of the backstory re: Delores, William, Arnold, etc. I was listening to a podcast about the show this morning where they were speculating that Delos is located on an island off the Chinese coast, noting the chinese signs when Arnold was giving Delores a tour of his house. 

I'm excited for both the robot revolt and what they will find when then they get to Glory and for the slow unveiling of the real plan behind Delos. I mean, after all, with the technology to create robots, why didn't William and old man Delos just not sell the technology to business and governments and make bazillions? Why confine the technology to an amusement  park? 

[Haleth]

Giancarlo Esposito is a HITG.  I would bet that everyone has seen him in something since it appears he's been in everything.

[Xantar]

Was this episode directed by Peter Jackson? Because all that fading to black was starting to seriously annoy me with 15 minutes left to go in the episode.

I'm intrigued by the backstory revealed in this episode, but I really think the structure was just not good. As others have said, it was choppy and didn't flow. Sometimes I could see what they were going for by tying a flashback to the present, but sometimes it just looked like the writers were just hitting their marks and forgetting to develop connective tissue between the scenes.

I'll give this show two episodes of setup, but now it's time for stuff to start happening.

[TobinAlbers]

1 hour ago, DarkRaichu said:

- And just a side lol. We saw 4 timelines this episode: shortly before William visit (ie Angela's private show to Logan & Dolores visited with Arnold), after William's visit (ie. convincing Delos Sr), after Delos bought Westworld (ie Delos Sr retirement party + William building a weapon), and present time (Dolores, Maeve, & MiB) :D :D :D

So now we know Logan did get out of the park eventually and didn't meet with a freak accident.  I mean, yeah, killing off the boss's son by sending him to the edge of the park on a horse buck naked would've been too obvious an 'accident' but it's obvious Logan was mentally broken. William had him cowed but good. That drug use on the patio seemed less recreational and more like he was trying to dull the pain/depression/possibly a salve for physical pain that was endured. And boy did he jump off the robots are cool train toys train. It's interesting that he sees the Robotpocalypse coming even then.

Also interesting was that while he's shown to follow his little head, he actually has a brain. He's aware of the timeline of development of AI, AR, VR, etc. and when he was confronted with the hosts he knew this was way far ahead of schedule than the timeline he's internalized. Doesn't necessarily mean he's a genius but he wasn't just an empty headed playboy.

[Kelda Feegle]

9 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

 

William's change (what's the opposite of a redemption arc?) seemed unrealistic to me.  He turned into a total prick pretty quickly.  "How could I have fallen in love with you? You're just a thing."

 

Devolution?

[numbnut]

23 minutes ago, TobinAlbers said:

So now we know Logan did get out of the park eventually and didn't meet with a freak accident.  I mean, yeah, killing off the boss's son by sending him to the edge of the park on a horse buck naked would've been too obvious an 'accident' but it's obvious Logan was mentally broken. William had him cowed but good.

I still don't get why sending Logan naked on a horse makes him unfit to run the company. Delos is pretty cheeky and would already know that his son is "adventurous," so a naked joyride wouldn't be much of a shock. Am I missing something?

Edited April 30, 2018 by numbnut

[CofCinci]

10 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

William's change (what's the opposite of a redemption arc?) seemed unrealistic to me.  He turned into a total prick pretty quickly.  "How could I have fallen in love with you? You're just a thing."

With how this series plays with timelines, we are missing pieces of William’s development.  He clearly reignites his feeling with Dolores because he at some point shows her his secret protect. I do not believe this happened at the same time he gave her his just a thing speech. 

[numbnut]

Does anyone know the famous classical piece played at the top of the ep? It's driving me nuts that I can't recall the composer's name.

[Ellaria]

1 hour ago, TobinAlbers said:

So now we know Logan did get out of the park eventually and didn't meet with a freak accident.  I mean, yeah, killing off the boss's son by sending him to the edge of the park on a horse buck naked would've been too obvious an 'accident' but it's obvious Logan was mentally broken. William had him cowed but good. That drug use on the patio seemed less recreational and more like he was trying to dull the pain/depression/possibly a salve for physical pain that was endured. And boy did he jump off the robots are cool train toys train. It's interesting that he sees the Robotpocalypse coming even then.

Also interesting was that while he's shown to follow his little head, he actually has a brain. He's aware of the timeline of development of AI, AR, VR, etc. and when he was confronted with the hosts he knew this was way far ahead of schedule than the timeline he's internalized. Doesn't necessarily mean he's a genius but he wasn't just an empty headed playboy.

I think that Logan's story could be interesting, depending on how much more we see of him. 

My guess: When Logan gets back to the real world, he is probably angry and half-crazed and coping with substance abuse issues. His father - who is dying - makes William the head of Delos. Logan goes into a downward spiral and that's when we see him shooting up and talking to Dolores.

Later - at the coronation - Logan tells (and I am paraphrasing here ) Dolores that "they" (his father and William) will cause the end of the species (humans). I think that he knows that they plan to harvest DNA from the rich, influential guests of the park and use it for nefarious purposes (replace humans in important positions with hosts). He doesn't approve. In S1, I'm pretty sure that he thought that the hosts were too real and wanted them scaled back. I think that he wanted to keep the park as a playground for the rich and nothing more. So yes, more than an empty headed playboy.

About the DNA harvesting, we also know that they put it to good use. There is a scene in S1 where a park guest approaches William and thanks him for saving his sister's life. So maybe the good use of it was a cover for the bad stuff?

[Fake Jan Brady]

3 minutes ago, CofCinci said:

With how this series plays with timelines, we are missing pieces of William’s development.  He clearly reignites his feeling with Dolores because he at some point shows her his secret protect. I do not believe this happened at the same time he gave her his just a thing speech. 

Delos didn't have a high opinion of Logan when William was showing him around, saying Logan had had bought a dodgy investment. Plus William knew how to exploit/save the situation, proving himself a better businessman - even more than Old Man Delos suspected, what with the subsequent retirement party.

[Morrigan2575]

9 hours ago, QuantumMechanic said:

Sacrilege -- I didn't rewatch season 1 before season 2 started :), so I'm still trying to remember stuff.

Am I correct in assuming this year's pre-MIB-William scenes (so far) are from *after* the season 1 pre-MIB-William scenes?

I didn't either so I may have this wrong.

First William scene, with Logan in the Lounge is pre Park Adventure

Second William scene, when they reach the park in the helicopter is closely after the S1 Adventure

Third William scene (party) is about 5-6 years after, judging by daughter's age.

The final William/Dolores scene is probably after Daddy Delos dies and William takes over the company.

 

As for what William was building, I believe it might be the bunker from last episode where they collected DNA from Guests. I could be totally wrong but, going by Logans comments at the Retirement Party I think they're looking for a way to put humans in hosts bodies.

About Dolores, I never liked her, never hated her but, her S1 story didn't engage me. I was more interested in Maeve's story. Her S2 storyline hasn't improvedy opinion of the character. I like that she moves/drives the plot but, character wise she's starting to move the needle from indifferent to hate. We'll see how it goes over the course of the season.

Shallow note, Ben Barnes is a beautiful/Sexy man.

[whiporee]

11 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

He turned into a total prick pretty quickly.  "How could I have fallen in love with you? You're just a thing."

But she is just a thing, or she certainly was at that point. His point was valid -- she's a fantasy construct. He was stupid to fall in love with her.

Are the humans supposed to be feeling guilty about the way they've treated the hosts? I know it's being portrayed that ways, but they are -- were -- constructs, created to provide pleasure (in all its forms). I mean, are we supposed to feel bad about driving a car over rough terrain? The hosts were created to be killed -- they were created to be fucked -- and without previous knowledge they had evolved, it's hard to think of the people as bad. It's the same questions that were raised in Humans -- can you abuse a machine? In one of the early episodes, one of the robots killed a guy who was a pedophile, but his relations were restricted to child-like robots. Doesn't that seem like a better answer? 

I don't know whether the show will get into these kinds of questions, but whenever I see the humans getting their "just deserts," it raises the question to me. 

[Pallas]

13 hours ago, mac123x said:

What thing full of spendor did middle-aged!William show Dolores at the end?  It looked like some earthmoving equipment, but her final scene with Teddy implied that it was a weapon.  A way to make the suddenly-appearing-sea appear?

There were also characters referring to themselves or their antagonists as God, and even James Delos making a reference to the Red Sea (of red ink: Argos's accumulated deficits). The textual imagery is setting up the hosts as the ancient Israelites fleeing Egypt -- for the valley beyond -- across a body of water that God miraculously parted, then wrathfully commanded to rise and submerge the captors pursuing in their chariots, now stuck in the wet sand.

[poeticlicensed]

9 minutes ago, whiporee said:

Are the humans supposed to be feeling guilty about the way they've treated the hosts? I know it's being portrayed that ways, but they are -- were -- constructs, created to provide pleasure (in all its forms). I mean, are we supposed to feel bad about driving a car over rough terrain? The hosts were created to be killed -- they were created to be fucked -- and without previous knowledge they had evolved, it's hard to think of the people as bad.

I dunno -  I can see fucking them with no guilt, and I guess they are lifelike enough. But killing them? Yeah, maybe they shouldn't feel guilty killing them because they are machines, but I think the larger question, at least for me, is why is killing people so pleasurable that there is a theme park created with one of the purposes being to kill. Sorry, I don't get it.  

[The Companion]

2 hours ago, Haleth said:

I gasped.  Was that a deliberate nod to BSG to have a host that looks so much like Six?

Given the attention to detail in this show, I thought it had to be. I immediately thought of BSG as well. 

 

23 minutes ago, numbnut said:

I still don't get why sending Logan naked on a horse makes him unfit to run the company. Delos is pretty cheeky and would already know that his son is "adventurous," so a naked joyride wouldn't be much of a shock. Am I missing something?

I am not sure it was just the naked horse ride. His father doesn't take him seriously, as evidenced by the discussion with William. Showing up naked on a horse down mainstreet of the latest pet project supports his dad's view that Logan is a spoiled child and should not be taken seriously. I think the important thing was the shift in dynamic. Logan saw something in William that he didn't expect. Something he didn't want to go up against.

Logan wants to be the coolest and smartest in the room. I think he honestly thought Westworld was a legitimate investment in unparalleled technology, but he didn't have the business acumen to consider applications other than those already offered or to articulate why it was a good investment beyond: "look how cool this is." When he brought William, he was showing off his new toy. Presumably, he even set William up with the first host he met (and had sex with) because he thought it would impress William and he probably got some satisfaction knowing William would be second to him (seems like a Logan train of thought).  William managed to humiliate him and ruin the fun of his new toy. Perhaps Logan could have recovered at some point, but William then continued to figure out ways to displace Logan when he presented the alternate application. He makes himself the heir apparent using the thing Logan chose to invest in while Logan is sidelined and treated like an idiot with no self-control. It wasn't that hard. Logan IS a spoiled jerk ruled by his whims. I am a little excited to see whether he continues down the path to destruction or whether he sets himself on a path for revenge against the perceived theft of his place in the world. 

 

2 minutes ago, whiporee said:

But she is just a thing, or she certainly was at that point. His point was valid -- she's a fantasy construct. He was stupid to fall in love with her.

Are the humans supposed to be feeling guilty about the way they've treated the hosts? I know it's being portrayed that ways, but they are -- were -- constructs, created to provide pleasure (in all its forms). I mean, are we supposed to feel bad about driving a car over rough terrain? The hosts were created to be killed -- they were created to be fucked -- and without previous knowledge they had evolved, it's hard to think of the people as bad. It's the same questions that were raised in Humans -- can you abuse a machine? In one of the early episodes, one of the robots killed a guy who was a pedophile, but his relations were restricted to child-like robots. Doesn't that seem like a better answer? 

I don't know whether the show will get into these kinds of questions, but whenever I see the humans getting their "just deserts," it raises the question to me. 

 I think this is a central question of the show. As posited in the first episode when asked about reality: "if you can't tell, does it matter?" Is there anything wrong, ethically speaking, with treating something that you cannot tell is not human as a thing? Unlike even a video game, the hosts look, feel and act like real people. They cry and scream and beg. They bleed. At some point, if it looks and feels real enough, does it become real for one or both of the participants? I do think there is an intentional ambiguity as to whether or not the humans should be considered "bad." I think we are supposed to be uncomfortable with the violence of the hosts' reaction, just as we were supposed to be uncomfortable with the way they were treated last season. 

 

I hear everyone on Dolores being boring, but I still like her and this storyline. I think she is walking a thin line between taking the place of the humans, but she seems committed to bringing people into the fold rather than forcing them into the fold. She understands that there will come a point where the humans will just decide to destroy the place. She needs leverage if she is going to be able to continue. At this point, her options are to try to escape the park and integrate into the real world or to find a way to prevent the humans from taking her world over. I don't see living as a human being particularly attractive to Dolores. I also enjoy that she is becoming the opposite of her program as a paragon of femininity and virtue. I love that she is gathering an army. I enjoyed her face off with a room full of men who underestimated the hell out of her. I even love that she is trying to wake Teddy up rather than accepting the puppy dog who will follow her to the ends of the earth programming. 

[Dobian]

24 minutes ago, whiporee said:

Are the humans supposed to be feeling guilty about the way they've treated the hosts? I know it's being portrayed that ways, but they are -- were -- constructs, created to provide pleasure (in all its forms). I mean, are we supposed to feel bad about driving a car over rough terrain? The hosts were created to be killed -- they were created to be fucked -- and without previous knowledge they had evolved, it's hard to think of the people as bad. It's the same questions that were raised in Humans -- can you abuse a machine? In one of the early episodes, one of the robots killed a guy who was a pedophile, but his relations were restricted to child-like robots. Doesn't that seem like a better answer? 

Well that's one of the big questions of the show, are the robot AIs  truly conscious and self-aware?  If they are, then you can say that enslaving them in a theme park for humans' amusement is completely immoral.  When or if real consciousness can be achieved in a robot AI is a murky question.

[Xantar]

1 hour ago, numbnut said:

Does anyone know the famous classical piece played at the top of the ep? It's driving me nuts that I can't recall the composer's name.

I believe that was this piece by Rachmaninoff: 

 

15 minutes ago, poeticlicensed said:

I dunno -  I can see fucking them with no guilt, and I guess they are lifelike enough. But killing them? Yeah, maybe they shouldn't feel guilty killing them because they are machines, but I think the larger question, at least for me, is why is killing people so pleasurable that there is a theme park created with one of the purposes being to kill. Sorry, I don't get it.  

Presumably not every guest kills someone on their visit. Also, some of the guests are probably killing as part of a heroic storyline so they feel less guilty about it. We just happen to see the guests who are assholes about it.

Moreover, I think for many of the guests the appeal is in committing an act of transgression rather than the killing itself. The show chooses to focus on people having sex and committing violence, but maybe there are guests who get their kicks by verbally abusing someone or cheating at cards or just hanging out with a bunch of soldiers and drinking into a stupor.

[CofCinci]

1 hour ago, numbnut said:

Does anyone know the famous classical piece played at the top of the ep? It's driving me nuts that I can't recall the composer's name.

It was Kanye West’s ‘Runaway’!!!  Love it. 

[DarkRaichu]

27 minutes ago, poeticlicensed said:

 why is killing people so pleasurable that there is a theme park created with one of the purposes being to kill. Sorry, I don't get it.  

I am still under the assumption that the outside world is a very homogenized / facist utopia where free actions are restricted to the nth degree by the laws.  So when the guests enter an environment without any limit (Westworld), the pendulum swings to the other end.

[DrSpaceman]

14 hours ago, mac123x said:

"This game is meant for you, but you must play it alone"
Me:  "Holy fuck"
[mass suicide]  
Me:  Cackling like a madman.  MiB shooting El Lazo 3-4 more times just for spite was hilarious.

The sales pitch with Angela and Logan was continuity breaking for me.  All the hosts at that party were indistinguishable from human, at least to Logan's inept and drunken eyes, but they're all first generation mechanical robots like Bill "shall we drink to the lady with the white shoes" the bartender.  He was obviously artificial.

 

The whole "this is how Delos invested in WestWorld" was interesting but ultimately I don't care.  Its the danger of any prequel flashback:  sometimes "how we got here" isn't that interesting.  How did Daddy Delos get convinced to invest?  Meh, I don't care, the fact is that he did invest.  I'm mildly curious what young!William said to convince him, because it's obviously got something to do with the intel that they're gathering in the secret bunker where Charlotte and Bernard were last episode.  But still, meh.

 

What thing full of spendor did middle-aged!William show Dolores at the end?  It looked like some earthmoving equipment, but her final scene with Teddy implied that it was a weapon.  A way to make the suddenly-appearing-sea appear?

I think the question of "how we got here" is being brought up not just out of general interest but because its relevant to the current story.  ANd I like knowing the back story.  For one it helps explain how The Man in Black came to be from where he was

[The Companion]

38 minutes ago, Xantar said:

Presumably not every guest kills someone on their visit. Also, some of the guests are probably killing as part of a heroic storyline so they feel less guilty about it. We just happen to see the guests who are assholes about it.

Moreover, I think for many of the guests the appeal is in committing an act of transgression rather than the killing itself. The show chooses to focus on people having sex and committing violence, but maybe there are guests who get their kicks by verbally abusing someone or cheating at cards or just hanging out with a bunch of soldiers and drinking into a stupor.

I agree. I think there are definitely hero storylines that require you to pull the trigger. You might shoot the men attaching Dolores' house for example, or track down a bounty. Last year we saw that guy kill Hector(?) after he shot up the saloon, considering himself a hero for getting the bad guy. Some people also enjoy playing the villain. You see it in the games where people are permitted to choose to be a good or bad character. It's the thrill of being able to act with no consequences (or at least with no perceived consequences). We know that some people use the park for family activities. Maybe they leave the kids with a host nanny so they can get wild in the Saloon, but mostly they do mild family-friendly quests. However, a lot of the story lines are going to involve violence, sometimes unexpectedly. In that way, it is like Red Dead Redemption, where some of the side quests have distinctly dark resolutions.

[dgpolo]

The piano pieces played by Clementine? and later by Dolores, was Gershwin's 'The Man I Love'.

[numbnut]

1 hour ago, The Companion said:

I am not sure it was just the naked horse ride. His father doesn't take him seriously, as evidenced by the discussion with William. Showing up naked on a horse down mainstreet of the latest pet project supports his dad's view that Logan is a spoiled child and should not be taken seriously.

It still makes little sense to me. It plays like Delos didn't know his son, which is odd after he already put Logan in some authoritative role at the company (hence Logan's assumption that the company was "My Company!"). Moving on.

1 hour ago, Xantar said:

2 hours ago, numbnut said:

Does anyone know the famous classical piece played at the top of the ep? It's driving me nuts that I can't recall the composer's name.

I believe that was this piece by Rachmaninoff: 

Thank you! That question would have bugged me all day.

1 hour ago, CofCinci said:

Does anyone know the famous classical piece played at the top of the ep? It's driving me nuts that I can't recall the composer's name.

I was wondering about the Rachmaninoff piece, but thanks!