S08.E08: How It's Gotta Be

[FierceCritter]

23 minutes ago, AlwaysWatching said:

No joking aside, I will have to stop watching soon - because, you know, you have other things in your life (ha!) that might not be going all that well, and you wonder why you torture self with a show that is appearing to put the screws to the fans just for the hell of it.  There is only so much psychological torture a fan can take from a show.  There are no breathers, no little breaks, no even minor escapes from the constant biggest bully in world Negan (and his evil minions). It's too f'n much.

I have never seriously considered not watching anymore - until now. I've dealt with every death, every loss of a home, etc. Just moved on. Eventually got over the latest bummer and still enjoyed the stories, characters, actors, etc.

But I watched this episode physically shaking from nerves over what was going to happen overall. I didn't know this particular shock was coming. And when it did, I admit I just lost it. Carl was my favorite character. I don't usually get emotionally attached to fictional characters. This was rare and different.

I don't know if I can continue watching a show that has so little relief from horror. I understand - it's a horror story basically. Bad things are gonna happen. But I watch or read horror hoping for a good ending. They pretty much just dropped the saddest ending I could have thought of. So really, there's no joy left in it for me anymore. :(

[jls1792]

Just now, Rachel RSL said:

HA! Thia post was way more entertaining than the entire last 2 seasons of this show.

Great. So the way this show is paced, that should happen in, what, season 64?

Probably.  Maggie might actually look pregnant by then

[mightysparrow]

My poor Michonne.  Having to watch the home she fought so hard for be blown to bits.  Now her family is living in a sewer.  It's like they're back to where they were when they were on the road, starving and eating barbecued dog.  Now, not only has she lost her home, she's lost Carl too.  That Saviour who decided it would be a good idea to grab her and start monologuing really misread his audience.

Andrew must have been gutted when he heard that Carl was going to be killed.  He LOVES Chandler.  I hope that my long hoped for TWD tell-all will be one of the results of this fucked up move on the part of the showrunners.

[Sentient Meat]

This show feels like watching only the torture scenes from Game of Thrones with no interesting characters or witty banter to break up the monotony.  I still have no idea what the plan is or was, and the show was so bad this whole season that I didn't have the energy to rewatch or even read recaps.

It was so laughably poor that I thought maybe they got Tommy Wiseau to guest direct and write in honor of the release of the Disaster Artist.

The montage of close ups in the sewer weren't cool or artsy, but comically silly like the outtakes of a straight to video movie from the eighties.

I think Dwight is the only character I care about right now.

Fuck the writers for making me suffer through 8 hours of this not to mention the entirety of Fear the Walking Dead.

Even The Talking Dead rambling on in the background while I write this is pissing me off.

Edited December 11, 2017 by Sentient Meat

[mamadrama]

Oops, never mind. I had an idea but now see that it was covered in TTD. 

Edited December 11, 2017 by mamadrama

[mamadrama]

3 hours ago, gatopretoNYC said:

Wow. You know the show is really ready to end, when Carl is dying, and my reaction is "eh". Yeah, he bugged me when he was younger, but I've grown to like him a lot the last few seasons. And yet, I'm just like, yeah, that sucks. I'm really bored with this show now.

Me too. I had the same reaction. For the first 5 seasons or so, I was on pins and needles all day Sunday. Even knowing that something "major" was going to happen tonight, I still found myself mostly switching over and watching 90 DAY FIANCE. (I know, there's no accounting for taste.)

[bmoore4026]

....................................................................................................................................................................Coral.......................................................................................................................................................

Edited December 11, 2017 by bmoore4026

[MVFrostsMyPie]

3 hours ago, oakville said:

The show has to increase the lighting budget. I couldn't see what was going on for most of the episode.

Seriously, I couldn't see what was going on most of the time. 

The bite reveal at the end wasn't supposed to blow us away, right? I mean the kid was sweating from the very beginning and looked like he had the (walker) flu (or a really bad hangover). 

Neil who?

[TigerLynx]

2 hours ago, peach said:

Why didn't Maggie kill all of them, including Jesus? 

Because she's going to try to use them for leverage as hostages.  She put the guy she killed in the coffin, and wrote on the coffin, "We have 38 more."  She's going to give the coffin with the body in it back to the Saviors.  However, I doubt the Saviors are going to care about one of their own being killed.  Simon will be pissed that Maggie is going to make him look like even more of a fool than Gregory did, but he's not going to care one of the Saviors ended up dead.

2 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

He was in the car? I didn't see him before he got shot, when he got shot or after and I'm wondering why Maggie is making a big fuss about the coffin for Neil.

She didn't really want the coffin for Neil.  Maggie was always planning on killing one of the Savior hostages when they got back to Hilltop.  It should have been Jared, but he's wearing plot armor like Negan, Simon, Gregory, Eugene, etc.

I get why Negan likes Carl so much.  Here is this one eyed kid, who put his own mother down so she wouldn't turn, offering himself up as a distraction while the adults sneak out the back.  Negan's henchmen would never do that.  They are bullies who like pushing other people around, but they would never sacrifice themselves for anyone else.  There is simply no reason, Carl dying or not, that Rick should keep Negan alive.  This is bad writing 101.  This is what happens when writers become enamored of a character, and keep them around long after their expiration date.  That and really lazy stupid writing.

Jesus didn't like the way Gregory ran things, but he didn't want to be in charge.  He thought Maggie should be in charge.  Except he thinks Maggie should do things his way even though he doesn't want to be in charge.  STFU Jesus.  You are another useless idiot on a show full of useless idiots.

Edited December 11, 2017 by TigerLynx

[dwarmed]

It’s a good thing Rick wasted all that time getting GPK on board instead of monitoring the situation at tha Sanctuary to make sure things went to plan. They were really useful allies for half a second. 

It’s a good thing all CDB just went home instead of monitoring the situation at the Sanctuary to make sure the Saviors didn’t escape. 

It’s a good thing Rick didn’t actually kill Negan when he has a bat in his hand... or when he had a gun in his hand. 

It’s a good thing the show didn’t bother showing us Eugene’s magic escape plan. That may have been dramatic and interesting. Of course, if the plan was just shoot all the walkers, I don’t know why they had to wait for Eugene to think of that. 

It’s a good thing the show decided to kill off Carl, the only character that gives this story any purpose. And made it really believable by having Carl get bit by taking out walkers for no good reason and forgetting how to handle them.

WTF does Scott Gimple have to do to get fired?

I wish I lived in the alternate universe where Frank Darabont is still running the show and it is a profoundly haunting work of art. 

[kelslamu]

3 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

All this shock and mourning and big kerfuffle about Neil getting shot and the coffing and Maggie shooting the Savior as retribution and I'm wondering, "Who the fuck is Neil?"

Right!  I have no clue who Neil is either.   I must have missed how they got Jerry.  

Edited December 11, 2017 by kelslamu

[AwesomO4000]

Well, I guess for me this means I'll only watch one more show...

I had two characters in this show I was invested in, and this episode took one beyond redemption and gave a death sentence to the other. I could've lived with the Eugene part if not for Carl, but Carl has always been my favorite - even when he was an annoying little shit. I enjoyed his relationship with Michonne, and I loved how he progressed into a complex, flawed, and interesting character. But now that character progression seems to be for nothing, since Carl's act of decency and attempt to make his own decision was the cause of his death.  So after the midseason premier, when I say goodbye to Carl, I'm finally done with this show.

For me, killing Carl was the last straw.

[Morrigan2575]

5 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I think he was processing that he got bit, trying to go out on his own terms. And of course all of his letter writing. It's sad TBH.

Yeah the letter writing and stuff made sense once I knew he was bit. I meant during the fight when he was running around he seemed disoriented kind of sluggish, it was because he'd been infected.

[Morrigan2575]

Question.

When Rick was walking the tunnel they focused on Tara who looked up and quickly put her head down and Daryl who never looked up.

Was that because of sorrow over Carl's impending death? Meekness because they betrayed Rick? Or did their previous actions lead to Carl getting bit?

[BellyLaughter]

Farewell Carl.... at least you didn’t have to meet your maker on the end of Negan’s “overcompensating for something, piece on the side” Lucille.... small mercies. 

[GreyBunny]

2 hours ago, dwarmed said:

It’s a good thing the show didn’t bother showing us Eugene’s magic escape plan. That may have been dramatic and interesting. Of course, if the plan was just shoot all the walkers, I don’t know why they had to wait for Eugene to think of that. 

He probably built another kite.

2 hours ago, dwarmed said:

It’s a good thing the show decided to kill off Carl, the only character that gives this story any purpose. And made it really believable by having Carl get bit by taking out walkers for no good reason and forgetting how to handle them.

Fuck Gimple.

[Anela]

I was feeling resigned to it last night, but now I'm annoyed again. This kid has more bravery in his pinky, than Negan has - a grown man who has to surround himself with terrified minions. And who do we get to keep? 

[Bryce Lynch]

6 hours ago, Kiki777 said:

Who the fck is Diane?? Lol for real who are these people?  Damn and the whole stupid thing was shot in the dark so evey time someone died I thought it was someone I cared about.  I didn't even catch Daryl getting his vest back and I thought at one point Siddiq was in the sewer with them.  

One of the many problems with the show is that they have added so many different groups and characters that it is almost impossible to keep them straight.  

During the big battle scenes this season, I often didn't know if the people shooting or being shot at were good guys or bad guys or what group they are with.  

If they are wearing athletic pads they are Kingdom.  If they talk too much they are Saviors and if they talk to little they are Garbage Pail Kids.  Other than that, I can't tell them apart.

[Gobi]

Is it overly cynical of me to suggest that they got rid of Carl because it became impossible to hide how much he aged IRL versus in show terms?

[Bryce Lynch]

4 hours ago, MVFrostsMyPie said:

Seriously, I couldn't see what was going on most of the time. 

The bite reveal at the end wasn't supposed to blow us away, right? I mean the kid was sweating from the very beginning and looked like he had the (walker) flu (or a really bad hangover). 

Neil who?

All the who's Neil talk made me think of this:

[Bryce Lynch]

The only thing I am looking forward to in the 2nd half of the season will be when Rick and the rest of the Sewer Rats are reunited with the Garbage Pail Kids and Jadis takes a whiff of Rick, wrinkles up her nose and says, "Stink you!".

[CrashTextDummie]

7 hours ago, Tesla said:

Who is Neil? I didn't know who he was in general, and I didn't even notice him IN THE CAR.  Good job, show.  

I did notice him. He had a random line and I had to laugh because extras never get random lines unless they are dying right after. Textbook definition of a red shirt.

[Bryce Lynch]

59 minutes ago, Gobi said:

Is it overly cynical of me to suggest that they got rid of Carl because it became impossible to hide how much he aged IRL versus in show terms?

That would have made more sense a couple of years ago.  At this point Chandler Riggs is a young man, so he could appear to be about the same age his is now for the next 5 years.

[CrashTextDummie]

So most of it wasn't completely terrible. Except Enid and Aaron going to Oceanside to make peace, parking a liquor truck in their perimeter, waiting until nightfall and then shooting Grandma Oceanside dead. Like what the hell seriously. This show keeps having "plans going awry" that were never ever going to work to begin with. The writing on this show has many, many flaws, but characters doing braindead moronic shit for plot purposes is by far the most damaging to my viewing experience. I can take deaths for pure shock value, begrudgingly, but shit like that ruins suspension of disbelief. And the show has a lot of it. Like the entirety of episode 6 this season.

I would even call this mid season finale decent if everything leading up to it wasn't so stupid. Take Carl for example, why is he dying again? Oh right, two episodes ago he decided to go out of his way to kill a horde of walkers bare-handed "to honor random aquaintance's mom", and even though the cast of this show by now has killed literal thousands of walkers without breaking a sweat, this time he got bit because the plot armor came off. It's not a meaningful death, it's the definition of a pointless one. It's many things: a little sad, a little shocking and a lot stupid.

Dwight and Eugene got the best character beats. I may be alone in my appreciation of them but they were the best thing about the previous episode also. With Alexandria torched and the Kingdom occupied, at least we have new battle lines for the rest of the season. I'd say the half-season ended on an optimistic note concerning the future of the show, but the bar was set incredibly low after it was dead in the water for the duration of it.

As an aside, are the Alexandrians hiding out in the sewers literally just below Alexandria? How are the saviors not immediately going to find them? I have to admit I don't remember this place if it's ever been shown previously.

[Smad]

Rick has to be in love with Negan. That's the only explanation as to why he can't kill that guy. They should just get a room and get it over with.

 

As for Carl, sorry buddy but I just don't care. I've never cared. I was hoping against all odds your constant sneaking out of the house would get your 14 going on 18 ass bit. And now it's finally happened and I'm all 'meh' about it. It's probably the absolutely impractical hair that would constrict your already limited field of vision that made me only 'meh'. Or it's just my general apathy from all the stupidity that this show has become.

[Helena Dax]

I'm sorry for Carl and I think killing him is a huge mistake, but it doesn't even matter because this show is now a complete mess. Nothing makes sense anymore. Rick's plan regarding Trash People was so ludicrous that I couldn't believe it. Daryl and Tara crashing that truck and leaving. There are no words. There are people getting paid for writing this shit. Unbelievable. 

[ghoulina]

Well, I guess those who speculated that Carl got bit back in "The King, The Widow, and Rick" were right. And I'm the arrogant asshole who was all, "No way, Carl is the John Conner of the show. He'll never die". I can admit when I'm wrong. 

But FUCK YOU, show, for making me wrong. 

Yea, I'm pissed that they're killing Carl off. I know so many people have been annoyed by him, but I've loved that kid from the beginning. I think he has shown tremendous growth and heart and courage; and he was, honestly, one of the few people left to root for. Yea, I had envisioned HIM being the leader at the end of the series. I figured Rick would die, and leave the next generation to rise like a phoenix from the ashes. 

Now, who knows....Maybe Chandler Riggs doesn't want to wait out the show-that-never-ends. Maybe he has other things he wants to do with his 18-year-old self. I can't say. But, ultimately, I feel like this was purely done for shock value. I can see them all sitting around in the writers' room, discussing it. "Who should we kill THIS mid-season finale? I don't care what makes the most sense. Who would they least expect? I want to prove that everyone really IS fair game". Because that's how you write a compelling show. *rolls eyes*

I also hate HOW they're doing it. Bite reveal on mid-season finale, hold you hostage until the Feb mid-season premiere. These people are so fucking gimmicky, I feel like I'm at a carnival. And I feel cheated. I feel that if you're going to commit to a major character death like that, you fully commit. Don't do it in drips and drabs. He takes away the emotion. Now we'll be all prepared for it next year and it just won't have the same impact. And Carl Poppa deserves better than that. 

Ugh. Okay, enough ranting about Carl. Let me rant about the 458498 other things that annoyed me with this episode. 

Next up - why does it have to be so fucking dark???? I could not see a thing Half the time I had no idea who was doing what. It seriously took me about 5 minutes to realize it was Jerry that Simon had on his knees out on the road. No idea who got killed that seemed to upset Maggie so much. Was she upset? Couldn't read character's expressions at all. Couldn't tell who was doing what in a fight. What did Maggie write on that box? Who did she kill back at Hilltop? No earthly clue. And I watched TTD. And every time they showed a clip from the episode, I could see plain as day. So where were the fucking editors before the actual show aired? You couldn't lighten that shit up? 

Also, I'm insanely frustrated with the status of this "war". We are literally RIGHT back where we were at the start of season 7, no? Negan is back in charge, you have to earn for Negan. No, fuck that, we're going to war. Yea, sorry, I'm not down to watch the same recycled plot every season. Negan should have been dead 20 times already. But let's kill Carl, the hope for the future, instead. 

And let's talk about the 5000 plot holes within this episode. Darkness aside, nothing made sense. How DID The Saviors get out? I know, I know....everyone keeps saying, "Eugene". Okay, but what did Eugene do? Have the writers become so lazy that they think it's enough to say, "Eugene came up with a brilliant plan to get us out" and just leave it at that? No explanation? Can you imagine if Walter White had done that? Bah. 

Speaking of Eugene, so he helped Gabriel go. But I thought Gabriel was bit? Am I confused. Why was he in the infirmary? He's suddenly fine now? 

How did Simon get Jerry? He hit the truck that Jerry, Carol, and Rick were in? But Rick and Carol got away? Didn't try to save Jerry? Just ran for The Kingdom and ASZ? And why did Simon just let Maggie and her crew go freely back to the Kingdom? Why would Negan sign off on that shit? Why would all leaders not be instantly killed? So they don't plan an insurrection again? 

What was the entire point of the GPK agreeing to help Rick? So they could run away after one gun shot? Waste of a previous episode. And what was the point of Enid and Aaron traveling to Ocean Side? So Enid could kill a grandma and then nothing else happens with that plot? 

Oh boy, I better stop myself now before I hurt my brain. I'm honestly not sure I want to keep watching this. I've been fed up with the show for awhile, but I've hung in there because I care about the outcome of certain characters. Carl was a big one, and this is really going to give me pause as to whether I want to continue this journey. 

[CletusMusashi]

If this story continues to move at the speed with which it has been, Coral isn't going to finish dying until Season 12.

[HighMaintenance]

8 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

And isn't it lucky for him that when he crashed through yet another window, he didn't get all cut up? Of course, no one had time to put 30 or 40 teeny-weeny bandaids on his face this time. Broken glass doesn't cut if the plot cannot tolerate it.

Dude, that's how Rick exits houses in ASZ.  Just *BAM* out the window!

Judith is either the chillest toddler in the Apocalypse, or she's on some serious meds.  That kid never cries, fusses, jabbers or squeals.  Who was the mystery person taking care of her in the sewer?  It was like the camera purposefully avoided showing who that was.  Whoever it was, had a huge ass head of curly hair - could have been Diana Ross for all I could see. 

[Kiki777]

1 hour ago, Gobi said:

 

Is it overly cynical of me to suggest that they got rid of Carl because it became impossible to hide how much he aged IRL versus in show terms?

 

At least when they did that on 'Lost' we got the fun line WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALT!!!!!

[ghoulina]

6 hours ago, Sentient Meat said:

think Dwight is the only character I care about right now.

You ain't lying. I was worried they were going to kill him off, and I have this inexplicable attraction to Austin Amelio. 

 

5 hours ago, dwarmed said:

It’s a good thing Rick wasted all that time getting GPK on board instead of monitoring the situation at tha Sanctuary to make sure things went to plan. They were really useful allies for half a second. 

It’s a good thing all CDB just went home instead of monitoring the situation at the Sanctuary to make sure the Saviors didn’t escape. 

It’s a good thing Rick didn’t actually kill Negan when he has a bat in his hand... or when he had a gun in his hand. 

It’s a good thing the show didn’t bother showing us Eugene’s magic escape plan. That may have been dramatic and interesting. Of course, if the plan was just shoot all the walkers, I don’t know why they had to wait for Eugene to think of that. 

It’s a good thing the show decided to kill off Carl, the only character that gives this story any purpose. And made it really believable by having Carl get bit by taking out walkers for no good reason and forgetting how to handle them.

WTF does Scott Gimple have to do to get fired?

I wish I lived in the alternate universe where Frank Darabont is still running the show and it is a profoundly haunting work of art. 

I have to quote this post, because it is absolute perfection. Every word you said - 100% true. It especially angers me that they killed Carl in some lame stunt where he couldn't fend off a few bumbling walkers. This is the kid that mowed down an entire herd and saved his dad's life!!!

I miss Darabont like you wouldn't believe. What this show started as, and what it is now? Couldn't be further from each other. 

[KirkB]

5 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

How did Simon get Jerry? He hit the truck that Jerry, Carol, and Rick were in? But Rick and Carol got away? Didn't try to save Jerry?

Actually, this one I do know, because while I couldn't see half of what was going on I did hear most of it. And they specifically said they were going to be in three separate cars. So when the Saviors crashed into Jerry, they just got Jerry. Which means they REALLY picked the wrong car to hijack. Either of the other two would have done SO much more for them.

Speaking of darkness, I get why so many people are upset Rick had Lucille and only hit Negan once, with the smaller, un-barbwired end. But they way that scene was shot, perhaps combined with my TV, I couldn't even tell WHAT he picked up. I saw him grab it and hit Negan, then Negan threw him off, but until I came here I had no idea it was Lucille. That does make the whole scene that much worse. Negan not dying for several seasons I get, since TWD is apparently in love with JDM, but if you want to keep a character alive stop dumbing down everyone else around him to do it. Rick and company have had any number of opportunities to kill him and not taken them, even when Rick has expressed a strong desire to do so. Trying and failing is one thing, not even shooting at the guy when you have the chance is just asinine.

I'm not happy Carl is a dead kid walking, but I'm not that broken up about it either. Most of the time they don't seem to know what to do with him anyway. I feel worse for Chandler since it sounds like he's really getting screwed. On a lighter note, at least he won't have to deal with wearing the eyepatch and that hat all the time anymore.

[Pixiebomb]

Why does the show have to kill off characters. Why can't they ever just leave or disappear leaving the option open for return. LikeHeath. My only hope is that the helicopter lands, swoops up Coral, and spirits him off to some Zona facility where the Murphy cures him.  Then a couple seasons later he returns and the world building can begin. 

[notcreative enough]

To start I was watching SNF so I didn't really start watching until half time. About 30 minutes left in the show. 

I hate the dark night episodes because I can't see anything. So all of what I did watch I couldn't really be tell who anyone was. I don't see the point in my finding it online because it probably won't be ant easier to see.

 I don't know if it was his decision but awhile ago it was because he wanted to go to school but now he has "music" coming out so who knows why he left. He most know on some level that he doesn't have what it takes to act in anything else. Good good for him for knowing his limits. I don't know what Carl's comic book story is or if someone is going to pick up where he left off.

Apparently he is "devastated by the twist." So he didn't really want to go.

What's the ratio between characters that die because they are supposed to and characters that die because the actors want out of the show. Im assuming that is it isn't there comic book death the actor want to leave but I could be wronug.

Edited December 11, 2017 by notcreative enough
Looks like I was wrong and Chandler didn't want to leave. Sounds like his parents are pissed.

[bosawks]

At this point I feel like the show is daring me to stop watching.............

Edited December 11, 2017 by bosawks
weird quote box reasons

[luna1122]

7 hours ago, mightysparrow said:

My poor Michonne.  Having to watch the home she fought so hard for be blown to bits.  Now her family is living in a sewer.  It's like they're back to where they were when they were on the road, starving and eating barbecued dog.  Now, not only has she lost her home, she's lost Carl too.  That Saviour who decided it would be a good idea to grab her and start monologuing really misread his audience.

Andrew must have been gutted when he heard that Carl was going to be killed.  He LOVES Chandler.  I hope that my long hoped for TWD tell-all will be one of the results of this fucked up move on the part of the showrunners.

http://ew.com/tv/2017/12/10/walking-dead-andrew-lincoln-midseason-finale-how-its-gotta-be/?utm_campaign=entertainmentweekly&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&xid=socialflow_facebook_entertainmentweekly

 

he does sound like he was pretty gutted by it.

I expected it to be Carl, but I was still kind of devastated. Finding out it wasn't Chandler's request to leave makes it worse. I've only been half heartedly watching since Glenn's death anyway, and Negan has ruined the show for me as it is, but I really  might just have to give it up for good now. Yeah, it's a dystopian horror show, but we need some hope, and most of the goodness and light is gone now. And it is so ludicrous that Negan still exists in the world. I just can't.

[festivus]

9 hours ago, mightysparrow said:

I think fans should organize a boycott of the mid-season premiere.  Gimple killed Carl to get attention and ratings.  The worse thing that could happen to him is that he gets neither.

I'm in. They've killed the heart of the show with the killings of Glenn and Carl and I no longer care about any of the other characters. I would just look at my favorites dying as being lucky to get to leave this suckfest. Can't believe that's the reaction they want from the fans. I'm done with the show but not with this board cause I love y'all. I'll still be reading here.

[Bryce Lynch]

19 minutes ago, festivus said:

I'm in. They've killed the heart of the show with the killings of Glenn and Carl and I no longer care about any of the other characters. I would just look at my favorites dying as being lucky to get to leave this suckfest. Can't believe that's the reaction they want from the fans. I'm done with the show but not with this board cause I love y'all. I'll still be reading here.

I liked both Glenn and Coral, but they have killed off other good characters in the past and the show has gone on just fine.  I think the real problems are a) The are not replacing the killed off main characters with interesting new ones b) There is no more good character and relationship development, just the endless, tedious, repetitive Saviors plot.  

[jls1792]

5 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Question.

When Rick was walking the tunnel they focused on Tara who looked up and quickly put her head down and Daryl who never looked up.

Was that because of sorrow over Carl's impending death? Meekness because they betrayed Rick? Or did their previous actions lead to Carl getting bit?

I was wondering this too.  I watched one of the AMC behind the scenes with the cast and crew of this episode.  The producers were talking about how when Rick walks into the tunnel, he knows something is wrong because of how everyone is sitting.  Then one of the producers says no one wants to be the one to tell Rick what's going on.  Then it shows Rick finding Carl and seeing he was bit.  So, what I took from this is the others who were down there must have found out Carl was bit and that's why they couldn't face Rick, because they knew he was about to find his son dying and no one could do anything to save him. As for how they found out, I don't know.  They might explain that in the MSP by having someone mention Carl not looking good when he came down to join them, and that Carl fessed up to being bit and went to go sit by himself in case he turned?

 

3 hours ago, Gobi said:

Is it overly cynical of me to suggest that they got rid of Carl because it became impossible to hide how much he aged IRL versus in show terms?

I was wondering this too.  Isn't Carl still only like 14 or 15 on the show?  I personally don't think it was too big of an issue but they could have done a time jump if that was really an issue.  Isn't there supposed to be a 3 year time jump in the comics?  That would have put Carl closer in age to Chandler. 

 

1 hour ago, ghoulina said:

Well, I guess those who speculated that Carl got bit back in "The King, The Widow, and Rick" were right. And I'm the arrogant asshole who was all, "No way, Carl is the John Conner of the show. He'll never die". I can admit when I'm wrong. 

But FUCK YOU, show, for making me wrong. 

Yea, I'm pissed that they're killing Carl off. I know so many people have been annoyed by him, but I've loved that kid from the beginning. I think he has shown tremendous growth and heart and courage; and he was, honestly, one of the few people left to root for. Yea, I had envisioned HIM being the leader at the end of the series. I figured Rick would die, and leave the next generation to rise like a phoenix from the ashes. 

Now, who knows....Maybe Chandler Riggs doesn't want to wait out the show-that-never-ends. Maybe he has other things he wants to do with his 18-year-old self. I can't say. But, ultimately, I feel like this was purely done for shock value. I can see them all sitting around in the writers' room, discussing it. "Who should we kill THIS mid-season finale? I don't care what makes the most sense. Who would they least expect? I want to prove that everyone really IS fair game". Because that's how you write a compelling show. *rolls eyes*

I also hate HOW they're doing it. Bite reveal on mid-season finale, hold you hostage until the Feb mid-season premiere. These people are so fucking gimmicky, I feel like I'm at a carnival. And I feel cheated. I feel that if you're going to commit to a major character death like that, you fully commit. Don't do it in drips and drabs. He takes away the emotion. Now we'll be all prepared for it next year and it just won't have the same impact. And Carl Poppa deserves better than that. 

Ugh. Okay, enough ranting about Carl. Let me rant about the 458498 other things that annoyed me with this episode. 

I agree with your thoughts about Carl.  I've seen some people who didn't like him so they don't care if he's gone.  I personally liked his character and thinks this sucks.  

My sister hasn't been watching this season (I've actually only watched the first episode and seen clips here and there because I haven't had time to catch up), but I told her what happened and she said it was dumb.  She was pretty much done watching, saying she might catch this new season when they marathon it, but she said now she probably won't even do that.  She didn't even necessarily like the Carl character, but she said even though she may not have liked him that much that it's stupid to kill him because he serves a big purpose to the story.  I agree. 

I also agree with you about how they're killing Carl.  I think if he had to die they could have given him a better way off.  He dies because he got bit taking out a few walkers that he didn't really need to take out?  Lame.

 

1 hour ago, KirkB said:

I'm not happy Carl is a dead kid walking, but I'm not that broken up about it either. Most of the time they don't seem to know what to do with him anyway. I feel worse for Chandler since it sounds like he's really getting screwed. On a lighter note, at least he won't have to deal with wearing the eyepatch and that hat all the time anymore.

I agree, it does seem like they weren't sure what to do with Carl.  He plays a big role in the comics and even though I think his character still had a big purpose in the show in being what fueled Rick and the others, they didn't know what to do with him.  The past few years especially, it seemed like Carl only appeared a few times in a half season.  I don't know if they wanted to change up his stories in the show since Carl is older on the show.  But if this is an age thing then the show should have taken that into consideration when they cast a 10/11 year old.  Of course he's going to age.  

 

59 minutes ago, notcreative enough said:

I respect Chandler decision to leave I don't know if it was his decision but awhile ago it was because he wanted to go to school but now he has "music" coming out so who knows why he left. He most know on some level that he doesn't have what it takes to act in anything else. Good good for him for knowing his limits. I don't know what Carl's comic book story is or if someone is going to pick up where he left off.

It seems like it was Gimple's decision for Carl to die and not Chandler wanting out.  There have been spoilers saying Carl would die, and many people assumed it was because Chandler was starting college.  But the interview with Chandler from Hollywood Reporter suggests that's not it at all.  In fact, it seems like Chandler was going to go to school near Atlanta (where they film) and he bought a house there, and then they decided to kill him off.  Once Chandler was let go from the show, he decided to take a gap year off from school and move to LA and focus on music and work in an Independent movie.  So actually, Chandler was going to start college when he was still on the show, but changed his plans when he got fired.

Not sure who will get Carl's comic story if they even give it to anyone.  

Edited December 11, 2017 by jls1792

[talktalk]

What a ridiculous episode and what a lousy play writing! Even if Eugene is clever, he sure isn't a miracle worker. How did he free the saviors from the herd of walkers? That was never even explained, maybe because they can't? 

This article at Fortune magazine said it perfectly, this show has become a BAD joke! https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2017/12/10/the-walking-dead-season-8-midseason-finale-review-what-a-joke/#73503790357c

[Boofish]

I want everyone who did not like this episode to line up and say you're sorry. The person with the lamest apology dies :) 

[TattleTeeny]

Well, I still like the show and am not at all hate-watching, and I am horrified that we're losing my Carl! I need to stop having favorite characters--it always backfires on me. Dale, Hershel, the tiger, and now Carl...

[AngelaHunter]

7 hours ago, TigerLynx said:

STFU Jesus.  You are another useless idiot on a show full of useless idiots.

Maybe if we pretend this show is a zany, slapstick comedy, mentally add things like cartoon "boinggs" and Batman "Biff" and "Pow!!" or think of it as a parody it could be more palatable.

 

3 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

If they are wearing athletic pads they are Kingdom.  If they talk too much they are Saviors and if they talk to little they are Garbage Pail Kids.  Other than that, I can't tell them apart.

Excellent tutorial. I wish I had thought of that last night.

I can't just blame only the silly, untalented hack writers. At least some of the blame needs to go with the leads, like Andrew Lincoln. Either he doesn't give a shit how laughable this show has become and just wants a paycheck, or he actually thinks it's good story telling. He must have some input and saying, "Don't look at me. I just work here" doesn't cut it.  I recall he made a bit of a fuss when told to say "Shut up" AFTER he killed the Grady cop because he didn't understand it, when to me that was a great moment and made perfect sense portraying his "No fucks given" attitude by then. Yet, does he think what's going on now makes sense? Or maybe he's just dumb.

BTW, how did he grab Negan's bat by the business end without cutting his hands to ribbons on the barbs?

[Smad]

14 minutes ago, jls1792 said:

I was wondering this too.  Isn't Carl still only like 14 or 15 on the show?  I personally don't think it was too big of an issue but they could have done a time jump if that was really an issue.  Isn't there supposed to be a 3 year time jump in the comics?  That would have put Carl closer in age to Chandler.

 

It was an issue for me. Because a lot of the time I had no idea about the timeline in the show because the writers refused to put in any hints. And I don't have the time to do online research for shows so all I have is what's in the show. And CR growing up and therefor Carl aging way beyond what his character is supposed to be, was often the only thing I had to judge time since everything else stayed the same. Is that logical? No. But I had nothing else to go by and I was frustrated by story and characters because I always thought it was weeks/months when really it ways days/weeks.

However as someone else said, now it's too late for that. They should have had rotating child actors long before a 14 year old looked like a man. Personally I wouldn't have had an issue with that because I understand that children age.

 

I might not care much about Carl and prefer him in small doses (sorry but I don't think CR is that good of an actor) but he sure deals with dire situations in a much more adult and calm way than his father. Whether it's shooting his mother, telling Negan to go eff himself or having to be the one to calm his father down while he is about to have his own hand chopped off. I could have seen him develop into one heck of a leader but I don't think CR is capable of carrying the show. For me it all comes down to the actor and why I don't care for the character. Carl's character is better than Rick IMO but the actor puts me to sleep. While he is better than he used to be, he's still completely bland. But that's just me.

[FierceCritter]

Gotta get to work, but wanted to pop in and make a point, sorry if I'm reiterating something that's been said since I last checked posts last night.

But with Carl dying, whether you liked him or not, he was the heart of the show. He was the reason Rick tried to be a good example and lead with mercy and understanding.

Now, he has zero reason to not pull his punches. He can go totally batshit and rip the world to shreds. Judith can end up one of the baddies from Mad Max with Mad Rick as an example.

I wanted the show to at least have heart. It obviously has none.

I will probably find myself watching a few more episodes, and then letting it go. And I never thought I'd hear myself say that.

Oh, and ditto-a-mundo to those who have complained about the bad plans going awry. I'm so sick of that. Sick of nothing ever working right except for the bad guys.

And sick of Daryl being instrumental in deaths and failures. Could have had him be a smart good ol' boy. Nope. Gotta make him a half-cocked, self-important dipshit. They're making me hate him, too. "What stupid thing is Daryl going to do next?"

And finally, someone spoke aloud my thoughts of how this compares to what I hate about Game of Thrones. Never-ending misery, with precious little to celebrate.

Work calls. Ta.

[Robert Lynch]

I think It was because Chandler aged. They didn't know what to do with his character last season or this season. This is the number one curse in all sitcoms. When the child actors ages, you know the writers ran out of good plot lines. In this case, take Modern Family.

[AngelaHunter]

39 minutes ago, talktalk said:

This article at Fortune magazine said it perfectly, this show has become a BAD joke! https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2017/12/10/the-walking-dead-season-8-midseason-finale-review-what-a-joke/#73503790357c

That article points out every single thing being said on this forum. So everyone sees what a stupid joke this show has become except the people responsible for it. That's kind of scary in a way.

[ghoulina]

49 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I liked both Glenn and Coral, but they have killed off other good characters in the past and the show has gone on just fine.  I think the real problems are a) The are not replacing the killed off main characters with interesting new ones b) There is no more good character and relationship development, just the endless, tedious, repetitive Saviors plot.  

Hershel was my favorite character EVER on this show and I about died when I watched him get beheaded. It took me a long time to get over that. But I felt that it made sense for the show. I never for one minute rolled my eyes or thought it was a stunt. With Carl, it's just shock-n-awe. There's no real purpose here. He got bit when he was suddenly overcome by two feeble walkers in the woods? Bullshit. Carl Poppa deserves better than that. And, what? Now we get to go through another half season of Rick and/or Michonne losing their mind? This was not well thought out. It doesn't feel organic to the story. It just feels like a ratings grab. 

And you're right that they've not been replacing beloved characters with equally interesting characters. Ezekial is about the only exception to that. But this cast is so overcrowded right now and I only care about a handful of them. Maybe less. 

15 minutes ago, Smad said:

. And CR growing up and therefor Carl aging way beyond what his character is supposed to be, was often the only thing I had to judge time since everything else stayed the same. Is that logical? No. But I had nothing else to go by and I was frustrated by story and characters because I always thought it was weeks/months when really it ways days/weeks.

However as someone else said, now it's too late for that. They should have had rotating child actors long before a 14 year old looked like a man. Personally I wouldn't have had an issue with that because I understand that children age.

The real answer to this would have been to do a few time jumps, which I don't think would have hurt that plot AT ALL. Or....ya know....end the show. At some point? I get that the comic is going on forever. But this isn't a comic book. I can't think of any good shows that have 8 plus seasons and kept consistent quality. They're just rehashing plots at this point, so I don't see a need for season after season. A better show runner could have covered all the interesting facets of a ZA by now and left us with a satisfying ending. It's not Chandler's fault that these idiots have no end in sight for the show. 

Personally, I know the kid is only supposed to be like 13, but I can handwave that at this point. It's easier to swallow than Maggie's refusal baby bump. 

Edited December 11, 2017 by ghoulina

[Jordan61]

The worst part of the decision to kill off Carl is that, according to that HR article, they are doing it as a justification for Rick NOT TO KILL NEGAN. So Negan is going to be around for God knows how long. I had pretty much decided to stop watching once they announced Lennie James was leaving, but this clinches it.

[ClareWalks]

The lack of lighting on this show is totally out of control. I had to adjust my brightness settings and I STILL couldn't fucking see anything. I had no idea who was on screen at any given time. I found myself saying, "am I supposed to know who this is? Is that Michonne or Ezekiel? Is that Morgan or Jerry? Am I supposed to remember who Enid just shot? Did Enid even shoot them, because I CANNOT FUCKING SEE A THING. Maybe I could tell by their voices, if everyone didn't put on the same growly smoker voice in this goddamn show." I'm glad they're doing the epic long recaps for this show, because I would have no idea what the hell was going on otherwise. No wonder I've totally lost interest. The only thing that was clear in this ep was that Coral got bitten, which is the ONLY thing in the last several seasons that has legitimately surprised me.

Also I think Jadis is a horrible character, horrible. All the Garbage People are horrible. Why are they even here. They are useless and stupid. ARGH.

Edited December 11, 2017 by ClareWalks