S35.E10: Two for the Price of One

[blackwing]

3 hours ago, survivinmt said:

I don't DISlike Jeff Probst. I just think he and we would be happier if he got some freedom to change it up a little. I am not saying he should never say those things again - just could sprinkle the game with some fresh patter.

I highly dislike Jeff and have for years.  I think his schtick is old and I wish we got a new, fresh host.  It's disturbing to me that the man is so vain that his appearance has practically remained unchanged for 17 years thanks to Botox and plastic surgery.  Grow old gracefully!  He should take cues from people like Alec Baldwin, who used to be a thin, fit, "It Boy" and let himself go and got bloated and puffy.  Or Matt LeBlanc, who refused to dye his grey hair.

As for his catchphrases, I highly doubt that he lacks the "freedom" to change things up.  He says it because he likes it.  There's nothing preventing him from making alterations.  I think of the time when Cirie went home because of a tie and everyone else had immunity and I think he said something like "instead of the tribe speaking, really, this time, the Survivor rules have spoken" or some other phrase.  

"Wanna know whatcha playing for?"

"Worth playing for?"

"Draw for spots!" [When it appears there is little  'drawing' involved right at that time, as sometimes the challenges are adjusted to each contestant based on height, and everyone has their own personally designed box to stand on which is already color coordinated with their supposedly randomly drawn spot]

"X, Y, Z.... I got nothin for ya.  Grab your stuff and go home."

"A and B getting their first look at the new C tribe... Q voted out at the last tribal council."

"D tribe, you have one extra member, someone has to sit out, who's it gonna be?"

"Take back the idol"

These phrases may be part of Survivor but it's like he's phoning it in.  I'd love to see a former Survivor like Malcolm or Cirie be the host.  Or bring in someone to host alongside Jeff, for the challenges.

[NutMeg]

7 minutes ago, blackwing said:

He should take cues from people like Alec Baldwin, who used to be a thin, fit, "It Boy" and let himself go and got bloated and puffy.

You're kidding, right? 

[ByaNose]

6 minutes ago, NutMeg said:

You're kidding, right? 

If Alec is bloated I’ll have what’s he’s having. 

[UGAmp]

I too assumed Ben’s secret agent gig was over with the Joe vote (and we’ll quickly find out in the next episode) but I guess he could say he thought they were splitting the votes between him and Joe and rather than have a tie, he voted for Joe. Maybe? The math probably isn’t right on that. But I want the double agent dynamic to continue since it adds some mystery to the game.

Did Ryan tell everyone about his idol? I thought when Devon told him he was upset he told other people, Ryan would catch on to the fact that meant Devon and Ben had talked. Because he told Devon, Ben, and Chrissy, right? JP probably knew since he walked by him digging it up. But all of those people weren’t voting with Devon, so how did he know? Obviously, we the audience know Ben and Devon are working together. But shouldn’t Ryan wonder who the blabbermouth was?

I think Chrissy had two advantages in the change she won II. 1) She’s pretty smart. 2) she got to see everyone else’s letters up on the pegs. I assume the rules are you have to work out the puzzle where the viewers can see as opposed to on the floor/ground where there is more space. That’s why they’re always up on a table or pegs like this one, ready for all the camera angles. So she already got to see folks’ letters in different combinations. I think someone (maybe Lauren) had “near” and another person had “vul”. It was a dumb word though and if I ever plan to go on survivor, I’m looking up all synonyms for safe, immune, etc and memorizing the longest ones. 

Edited December 1, 2017 by UGAmp

[HurricaneVal]

34 minutes ago, NutMeg said:

Ryan has lost many things over this double episode and the end of the last one. His dominant position. His idol. His special bromance with Devon, which I don't think he realised he was putting in danger by telling Ben about his idol. He's frazzled, famished and now working from the bottom. I'm really curious to see whether he can stil find some game or whether he'll just fold.

I actually think Ryan lost his special bromance with Devon when he sided with Chrissy over Devon in that one vote.  I'm not 100% sure Devon was aware of that, or if he was if Ryan managed to mend that fence, but revealing his idol to Ben certainly was the final straw that killed the bromance for once and for all.

[NutMeg]

10 minutes ago, UGAmp said:

I thought when Devon told him he was upset he told other people, Ryan would catch on to the fact that meant Devon and Ben had talked. Because he told Devon, Ben, and Chrissy, right?

Me too! Ryan has been making mistake after mistake these past two weeks.

[NutMeg]

3 minutes ago, HurricaneVal said:

I actually think Ryan lost his special bromance with Devon when he sided with Chrissy over Devon in that one vote.  I'm not 100% sure Devon was aware of that, or if he was if Ryan managed to mend that fence, but revealing his idol to Ben certainly was the final straw that killed the bromance for once and for all.

What vote was that? Not challenging you all, just faulty memory about early votes :)

Still, as I see it, from Devon's point of view, he was just waiting for the opportunity to rejoin with Ryan. And was delighted when Ryan confirmed that he, Devon, was still his closestest ever. Except that Ben blew that fairytale away.

The weird thing is that I think that Ryan was sincere in that Devon is the one he trusted the most, even thought Chrissy was his chosen strategic buddy, and even though he shared his secret idol with Ben (and maybe others). But another of Ryan's mistake was not to treat Devon like a partner to discuss strategy with, while that's what Devon wanted the most. Meanwhile, Ben, then Lauren, and Ashley, were treating him as a strategic partner rather than a vote.

[ByaNose]

JP looks great with a 22 lb weight loss and curly hair. JP does not look good when his hair has been cut and flattened. I think Desi or Cole should have their beautician license revoked. LOL!!!!! I think he is 100% better looking then Cole. I never understood the Cole love when you had silent JP around. LOL!!!!

[violet and green]

1 hour ago, blackwing said:

I highly dislike Jeff and have for years.  I think his schtick is old and I wish we got a new, fresh host.  It's disturbing to me that the man is so vain that his appearance has practically remained unchanged for 17 years thanks to Botox and plastic surgery.  Grow old gracefully! 

Grow old gracefully? He's in his fifties! They do mess up his dye job, particularly for the reunion shows when it is freshly coal black - but a natural dark brown is really really hard to get and keep for more than a minute. Good god, the poor man is just keeping his face fresh and relevant for today's climate; I wouldn't touch the botox myself, but I don't begrudge a person who is onscreen in HD for their living a jab here and there. The show wouldn't be the show without Jiffy.

[MissEwa]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I was sort of rooting for Devon until he said he looks at Lauren and realized "Wow, she's almost as good as me!" 

Oh, Devon. Just stand there and look pretty.

YMMV, but I thought he was joking. I feel like Devon has this deadpan humour thing going on and doesn't take the game very seriously at all, but I could well be attributing things to him that aren't there. 

1 hour ago, NutMeg said:

As much as I thought Ryan+idol should have been the optimal first vote, the later convo of Devon and Ryan makes me think that Devon saved Ryan. Didn't he say something like "If it wasn't for me, you'd be gone"? If I heard right, I don't think Devon pushed to keep Ryan for old times' sake, but because once his current alliance is gone, Devon could again be his closest ally. Hell has no fury like an alliance mate scorned, and Devon is going to do his best to get his revenge. Even if he doesn't realize it yet. Ben's "reveal" of Ryan's idol to Devon was a master move  and has completely changed the dynamics between D&R.

Interesting. I read that whole conversation as obligatory and quite fake on both sides. Ryan's thanking Devon for saving him was him trying to stay in the good graces of a majority that's turned on him, acknowledging a good move but trying to play we're-still-friends in the hope that he's not next, and Devon's response seemed pretty perfunctory jury management. What else could he say? 'No, actually, I wanted you gone but Lauren and Ashley over-ruled me'? I think when you've flipped on an ally you want to come across as both in control and genuinely conciliatory, and Devon playing along like not voting out Ryan was his move (whether it was or not) does both of those. 

[NutMeg]

2 minutes ago, MissEwa said:

YMMV, but I thought he was joking. I feel like Devon has this deadpan humour thing going on and doesn't take the game very seriously at all, but I could well be attributing things to him that aren't there. 

Interesting. I read that whole conversation as obligatory and quite fake on both sides. Ryan's thanking Devon for saving him was him trying to stay in the good graces of a majority that's turned on him, acknowledging a good move but trying to play we're-still-friends in the hope that he's not next, and Devon's response seemed pretty perfunctory jury management. What else could he say? 'No, actually, I wanted you gone but Lauren and Ashley over-ruled me'? I think when you've flipped on an ally you want to come across as both in control and genuinely conciliatory, and Devon playing along like not voting out Ryan was his move (whether it was or not) does both of those. 

Interesting indeed, because without more background information and without the beginning of their talk we can fill in the blank any way we want :) I guess I just assumed Ryan's thanks were in answer to something before we hadn't seen, which is very me much filling in the blanks! But still, we don't know how the conversation started, and it seems weird that Ryan's first instinct would be to thank Devon rather than to ask him why he turned on his alliance (but not on him, Ryan, whereas Ryan thinks he's the head of the alliance, so in his view he would logically be the first one to eliminate).

[RedheadZombie]

1 minute ago, NutMeg said:

Interesting indeed, because without more background information and without the beginning of their talk we can fill in the blank any way we want :) I guess I just assumed Ryan's thanks were in answer to something before we hadn't seen, which is very me much filling in the blanks! But still, we don't know how the conversation started, and it seems weird that Ryan's first instinct would be to thank Devon rather than to ask him why he turned on his alliance (but not on him, Ryan, whereas Ryan thinks he's the head of the alliance, so in his view he would logically be the first one to eliminate).

I hope we see Ryan figuring out that Ben is the one who tattled to Devon regarding the HII.  

[Fallacy]

I think Lauren is making a huge mistake planing to go to the end with Ben, Devon, and Ashley. Ben and Devon could easily beat her in jury votes and Ashley is also great in challenges. Had Lauren aligned with Chrissy, Ryan, Joe, and Mike, she would beat any one of them in a jury vote because nobody likes that group very much and she can best them in most challenges, making her far more likely to on an immunity run to the final three. 

Thus, I don't think she's a brilliant, practical strategic mind. She's playing a friendship game and staying loyal to the people she likes better even though her odds of winning are higher with the other group, in my opinion. 

[MissEwa]

When Devon mentioned it, Ryan's response was something like 'you're the only one I told', which I took to mean he was arguing that other people knew, because they were there or helped him find it, but Devon was the only person he confided in. Which is still a lie, but I guess was his attempt to keep Devon on-side. Devon played that exactly right, I think, focussing in on the betrayal which put Ryan on the back foot and made him completely miss the fact that someone obviously blabbed. 

[enoughcats]

54 minutes ago, NutMeg said:

Me too! Ryan has been making mistake after mistake these past two weeks.

Ryan looks as if he couldn't carry a feather pillow.  When he was passing the large net bag of wood from the float onto their boat, I thought there was a 50:50 chance that he'd fall off and it would be weighed down by the wood.  I would hope that the medical staff are making sure he's healthy enough to survive ten more days.

[blackwing]

I still can't understand why they got rid of JP.  So what if he is physically strong?  He might win challenges.  So what?  If he made it all the way to the end, he'd have to be sitting next to one or two others.  And those one or two others (unless one is Ashley) will have played a better strategic game to get to the end.  And likely made the decisions.

Nobody ever rewards "the challenge winner" in final tribal.  Mike Holloway won challenges to stay alive but his situation was different, he was alone and he had to keep winning to stay in the game.  I think people respected that.  The jury rarely respects someone who wins challenges but doesn't play much game.  That's why Woo lost to Tony and why Ken lost.

JP would lose to anybody.  He was the perfect goat to drag to the finals.  If I were Lauren I would have tried to take JP and Ashley.

[Mystery]

I would have gotten rid of Chrissy just so I wouldn't have to listen to her yak at me when we got back to camp. 

[Nashville]

2 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

I hope we see Ryan figuring out that Ben is the one who tattled to Devon regarding the HII.  

Aw, hell, Ryan already knows that; he’s simply misinterpreting what he knows.  From Ryan’s point of view, of course Ben was the one who squealed to Devon; Devon and Ben were in an alliance, after all.  Nothing about the disclosure, however, would necessarily dissuade Ryan from a mistaken perception that Devon and company flipped on Ben after Ben told Devon.

[Quilt Fairy]

16 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

I'm amazed the man can stand upright.  He must be burning muscle at this point.

Burning muscle? His body must be consuming his internal organs!

[Nashville]

1 minute ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Burning muscle? His body must be consuming his internal organs!

Well, Ryan’s physique does bear a certain resemblance to that of Joey Ramone....

[ItsJessMe]

If you go to Dalton Ross’ recaps on EW, somewhere there is a link to Jeff saying “39 days, X contestants, one survivor” - for every single season.  It’s mesmerizing but bizarre.  He uses the same gestures - lifts a finger up on “one” and then pauses and puts his hands on his hips when he says “survivor”.  Sometimes he makes a 1 with his right hand and sometimes with his left, but it always ends with hands on hips and that pause.  

Also watching them all back to back like that? He really did look younger at the beginning.

[Etta Place]

Oh Devon, you're so much prettier when you don't talk.

[KimberStormer]

10 hours ago, green said:

 [the stereotype is] Smart people have to be . . . with women, usually blonde. 

As a blonde, I have to say that is not my experience.  "Dumb blonde" is a thing people think.  (This is not important, but it has been bugging me my whole life long)

6 hours ago, NutMeg said:

 Please tell me there were other times when an older female with a good game pay emerged victorious. Please.

Well, Tina? 

[Jextella]

Well, this season is finally getting a little bit entertaining.    The Lauren-Devin-Ben-Ashley alliance seems too good/easy to last.   They are so close that they will start thinking about who they can beat in front of a jury and all of them would be hard to beat.  

Odds would be far better for one of them to take Mike and Ryan to final 3.  I hope we see a bit of disruption there next week just to keep it interesting :)

[SVNBob]

9 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I was sort of rooting for Devon until he said he looks at Lauren and realized "Wow, she's almost as good as me!" 

The background music even went a little bit "doink?" at that line.  But then he came up with the Secret Agent Ben plan.  And that's when I realized that that kind of thinking was what he was talking about.

[cooksdelight]

10 hours ago, NutMeg said:

Me too! Ryan has been making mistake after mistake these past two weeks.

He’s starving to death, all his brain cells are shot. I hope to never see his heart actually beating on TV again.

[amazingracefan]

4 hours ago, Jextella said:

Well, this season is finally getting a little bit entertaining.    The Lauren-Devin-Ben-Ashley alliance seems too good/easy to last.   They are so close that they will start thinking about who they can beat in front of a jury and all of them would be hard to beat.  

Odds would be far better for one of them to take Mike and Ryan to final 3.  I hope we see a bit of disruption there next week just to keep it interesting :)

I think both Joe and Mike knew that it was Mike who was in the better position.  For all this talk about them being together Joe was quite right in pointing out that Mike was usurping him as the goat to take to the end.  Still, I'm not sure Joe was that dangerous to keep, I could never see Chrissy working with him (or vice-versa).

[plurie]

13 hours ago, NutMeg said:

Please tell me there were other times when an older female with a good game pay emerged victorious. Please.

Sandra TWICE.

[NutMeg]

She has good game play all right, but she wasn't "older" her first time, was she?

[ProfCrash]

15 hours ago, HurricaneVal said:

I don't like obnoxious manufactured character Mike who is trying way too hard and is not as strategic as he likes to think.  But regular Mike?  I kind of like him, and I can see where he truly is a healer.  That Mike works hard to share even his pathetic catch with his fellow tribemates.   That Mike busts into immediate doctor action when one of his tribemates passes out.  That Mike recognizes that Chrissy is acting oddly and goes to check on her and offers his compassion and moral support, even though he doesn't really like her.  I like that Mike.

 

I agree. I like the Mike, and Jessica, that jumped in to help Cole when Cole collapsed. You can see he immediately moved into professional mode and did his job. You saw the empathetic Mike when he approached Chrissy in the shelter. Game Mike was a bit obnoxious at tribal and a few other times, real Mike looked after Chrissy and made sure she was ok and encouraged her. I far prefer the other Mike to the game Mike.

14 hours ago, iMonrey said:

These rewards are specifically designed to create discord within an alliance. They know damn well there's a seven-person alliance and that Lauren has to prioritize which three of them she's closest with. The fact that Jeff flat-out asked Ryan whether her choices were meaningful demonstrates the purpose of allowing her to pick three other people and show her hand, so to speak. If Ryan, Chrissy and JP didn't find any significance in the fact that none of them were chosen by her, then they're idiots. They're supposed to be fans of this show. A little paranoia is a healthy thing. Of course, it's possible they did question her choices but we weren't shown. But it's also possible they're just that over-confident. I did say I believe it's their fault - they had an opportunity to beat Lauren to the punch by recruiting Joe and Mike themselves.

Surely there's a happy medium the show can achieve. There's really no point in setting the show on an island if they're going to reward them with hearty meals every other day, but I don't want to watch them starve to death either. What's wrong with just letting them have rice and coconuts and fish? And scaling back some of these barbecues and picnics and other elaborate spreads? I really don't enjoy watching a group of them chow down on a feast every week. It's not interesting and it's not compelling to watch.

I think Ryan clued into something happening when he discussed the three of them sitting out of the Immunity challenge and he commented that it was strange that they would leave it to him to beat Joe and Mike in an Immunity challenge. In the end, he and Chrissy were far too confident in their alliance and it bit them in the ass. I suspect that Ryan and Chrissy were both thinking that they had the numbers to get to the seven easily enough and that it was too early to make a move against the alliance. I tend to think that they are right. Moving at this time put Chrissy and Ryan on edge and has probably kicked up their game. I suspect that Chrissy will find another gear in immunity challenges, just like she did in the second challenge. And I think it will get them moving in how they work. Chrissy knows that Ashley was questioning Ben earlier and Ashley seemed comfortable talking to Chrissy so I think there is something that Chrissy might be able to work with. Mike will clearly move into the free vote range and probably find a way to work with Ryan and Chrissy. So there are votes to be had and a far more motivated Chrissy to find them.

14 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

I don't remember Ashley gloating to Ryan/Chrissy. In confessionals, sure, but she stayed completely quiet after that TC. Now Devon was being a real asshole and it was painful to watch.

 

Ashley and Devon were grinning and clapping and flat out wore their glee at blindsiding JP on their faces the entire vote reveal. Lauren and Ben were wisely looking at Ryan and Chrissy with confused faces, Ben, or just a cold "It's a game face", Lauren. There is a huge difference in how that is going to be received. Devon was the one speaking up at camp "That is confidential", "We won't tell you" and working with Joe and Mike to rub salt into the wound. Lauren deflected the questions and was honest in her interactions with Chrissy. She simply told Chrissy that they had not discussed strategy before so she saw no reason to do so now. That is going to be more appreciated then Devon's more gloating "That's confidential" type BS with a smile on his face and a giggle.

It is pretty clear to me that Devon was flat out over the moon excited by his move and it showed in his body, his words, and his behavior. Ashley's body language was pretty obvious. Lauren was far more reserved in her reaction. Note that Ryan and Chrissy were discussing Ashley and Devon's actions and not Lauren's. As such, I suspect that Chrissy and Ryan would be more willing to vote for Lauren then Ashley or Devon because Lauren was far more "professional" in her response to the move and that is going to be appreciated.

10 hours ago, Fallacy said:

I think Lauren is making a huge mistake planing to go to the end with Ben, Devon, and Ashley. Ben and Devon could easily beat her in jury votes and Ashley is also great in challenges. Had Lauren aligned with Chrissy, Ryan, Joe, and Mike, she would beat any one of them in a jury vote because nobody likes that group very much and she can best them in most challenges, making her far more likely to on an immunity run to the final three. 

Thus, I don't think she's a brilliant, practical strategic mind. She's playing a friendship game and staying loyal to the people she likes better even though her odds of winning are higher with the other group, in my opinion. 

Lauren knows that she cannot go to the end with Ben, She and Ashley approached Devon about voting out Ben over Joe. Devon did not seem to be interested in that plan which is why they voted out Joe instead. The two of them listed. She will cut Ben if she can, but I think she missed her moment. Leaving Ben in the game and cutting Joe leaves too much room for movement in her alliance. Joe and Mike were hers to use, they made that damn clear in their conversation at Tribal. She could have cut a huge threat without even using her advantage but she didn't. Instead she now has cut Mike over to Chrissy and Ryan and she has Ashley who wants Ben gone. I don't know if Ben knows that Ashley is the one who told Chrissy that Ben was being too much of a dictator but there have been two weeks were Ashley has placed a target on Ben's back, in different ways. I can see Ashley being willing to work with Chrissy and Ryan and Mike to remove Ben.

This is why I think Lauren moved too early with this move. She needed to take out Mike and Joe first and remove the rogue element. They had the numbers, they made a move too early. All she did was energize Chrissy and Ryan and give them someone to work with (Mike). And she put a target on her back. I will not be surprised to see Ben go next week (Mike, Chrissy, Ryan and Ashley) and then Lauren. (Same group. Ashley knows that Ben is a threat, she will see Lauren as a threat because Lauren is the one who spurred the big move) Ashley is clearly pliable and will be excited to be making moves. She has spoken against Ben and his game and will see the same thing for Lauren.

[sadiegirl1999]

Quote

 

For all the rewards, Joe lost 15 pounds and JP lost 22 pounds. Just saying. Most of that food goes in one end and out the other.

JP lost that much! Yikes...

 

I REALLY worry about Ryan. He must be 90 lbs soaking wet. 

[Lamb18]

14 hours ago, blackwing said:

 I'd love to see a former Survivor like Malcolm or Cirie be the host.  

I think Penner would be a good host, especially managing tribal council.

What I am wondering if the early Ben/Chrissy alliance is still in effect but just masked under all this moving around.

[Star Aristille]

14 hours ago, NutMeg said:

Please tell me there were other times when an older female with a good gameplay emerged victorious. Please. 

Tina and Sandra (both times) have been mentioned, but despite what you said in your post about Denise, she did win on her gameplay, as well.  So that's three older women who've managed it.

[ProfCrash]

Sara and Kim played great games. I don't know their exact ages but neither of them were exactly early 20's. They were both well into careers and working hard to improve their lives. So are we only talking women in their 40's?

[Special K]

I keep forgetting to mention this, but I'm getting increasingly distracted by the angry Yeti grunting and hollering as part of the "background" music -- both in the opening credits and surrounding TC.  Seriously, what is that?!?

[Jextella]

2 hours ago, amazingracefan said:

I think both Joe and Mike knew that it was Mike who was in the better position.  For all this talk about them being together Joe was quite right in pointing out that Mike was usurping him as the goat to take to the end.  Still, I'm not sure Joe was that dangerous to keep, I could never see Chrissy working with him (or vice-versa).

Agreed.  Joe would be more of a risk - socially and perhaps with regards to loyalty.

[ByaNose]

2 hours ago, sadiegirl1999 said:

I REALLY worry about Ryan. He must be 90 lbs soaking wet. 

I hoping he makes jury so we get to see his Ponderosa video and his weight weigh in. I'd be curious to hear what his starting weight was and what it is "now".

Edited December 1, 2017 by ByaNose

[amazingracefan]

54 minutes ago, Lamb18 said:

I think Penner would be a good host, especially managing tribal council.

I think that's a better suggestion.  You need someone who is articulate and with some authority.  Picking someone to host just because they are a popular player with some of the audience wouldn't necessarily work.

[Nashville]

1 hour ago, ProfCrash said:

I agree. I like the Mike, and Jessica, that jumped in to help Cole when Cole collapsed. You can see he immediately moved into professional mode and did his job. You saw the empathetic Mike when he approached Chrissy in the shelter. Game Mike was a bit obnoxious at tribal and a few other times, real Mike looked after Chrissy and made sure she was ok and encouraged her. I far prefer the other Mike to the game Mike.

I totally agree, and IMHO this exposes Mike’s Achilles’ heel; at his core psyche, Mike is not a natural villain.  “Doctor Mike” is an organic representation of Mike’s true self; an unselfish, caring, empathetic person who garners the respect of those around him.  “Villain Mike” is a forced persona, and that level of artificiality shows; his overacting is clownish, his attempts to antagonize are so transparent as to be worthless, his strategy is that of a buffoon, and nobody - including his purported allies - understands or respects his gameplay.  

Mike probably would have been better served if he had not chosen to engage this caricature of himself halfway through the game.  In doing so Mike has spent a lot of the goodwill credit he banked earlier in the season, and has received little or nothing in return - unless you want to count mistrust as an asset.

 

1 hour ago, ProfCrash said:

Ashley and Devon were grinning and clapping and flat out wore their glee at blindsiding JP on their faces the entire vote reveal. Lauren and Ben were wisely looking at Ryan and Chrissy with confused faces, Ben, or just a cold "It's a game face", Lauren. There is a huge difference in how that is going to be received. Devon was the one speaking up at camp "That is confidential", "We won't tell you" and working with Joe and Mike to rub salt into the wound. Lauren deflected the questions and was honest in her interactions with Chrissy. She simply told Chrissy that they had not discussed strategy before so she saw no reason to do so now. That is going to be more appreciated then Devon's more gloating "That's confidential" type BS with a smile on his face and a giggle.

To be fair, a lot of that was also dramatic play for the purpose of selling the “Ben’s out” subterfuge - and it worked.  :)

 

1 hour ago, ProfCrash said:

[Lauren] will cut Ben if she can, but I think she missed her moment. Leaving Ben in the game and cutting Joe leaves too much room for movement in her alliance. Joe and Mike were hers to use, they made that damn clear in their conversation at Tribal. She could have cut a huge threat without even using her advantage but she didn't. 

Cutting Ben at this point would have been strategic suicide for Lauren.  At this moment, look at the results of the options:

1. Keeping Ben and voting out Joe preserves a 4strong Lauren/Ben/Devon/Ashley ruling junta which can run the table down to at least F5.
2. Keeping Joe and voting out Ben at this point in the game cuts Lauren’s voting bloc numbers too soon.  The result would be the Fab Four becoming a 3strong Lauren/Devon/Ashley alliance which could easily be outflanked if Joe and Mike were to flip back and form a 4strong with Chrissy and Ryan.  In effect, Lauren would be relinquishing control of the game to Mike and Joe, and putting her trust (and her game) in their hands - and what basis does Lauren have to believe such immense trust in J&M would be rewarded?

In truth, I think Joe and Mike slipped up presenting themselves as a solid twofer at this stage of the game.  In a game where the exterior-to-them power balance are two groups differentiated by two votes, their ability to flip at whim a two-vote swing at any TC is simply too large a threat for everybody else to tolerate.  This is exactly why Lauren - and Devon, and Ashley - couldn’t, shouldn’t flip on Ben right now; doing so would reduce the faction differential to one vote.  A flipping two-person vote bloc would hold all control and power by virtue of flipping back and forth with each TC vote, reducing in turns each exterior group’s power by one vote.

[ProfCrash]

Ah, But Lauren has the advantage. If they had voted out Ben and Mike and Joe went to Chrissy and Ryan, you have a 4-4 tie. Mike and Joe know that Lauren has the advantage so they know that the 4-4 tie is in play. Are Joe and Mike willing to draw rocks?

[Nashville]

24 minutes ago, ProfCrash said:

Ah, But Lauren has the advantage. If they had voted out Ben and Mike and Joe went to Chrissy and Ryan, you have a 4-4 tie. Mike and Joe know that Lauren has the advantage so they know that the 4-4 tie is in play. Are Joe and Mike willing to draw rocks?

Correction: Mike and Joe were TOLD Lauren has the advantage - so this is predicated upon the assumption Mike and Joe believed what they were told, which isn’t necessarily a given.  Remember, Mike is a staunch adherent to a philosophy succinctly stated by another (albeit fictional) doctor - Dr. Gregory House: “Everybody lies”.

[amazingracefan]

As I said before I couldn't see Joe/Chrissy aligning.  Mike might be more of an unknown quantity.

[peachmangosteen]

19 hours ago, UGAmp said:

Did Ryan tell everyone about his idol? I thought when Devon told him he was upset he told other people, Ryan would catch on to the fact that meant Devon and Ben had talked. Because he told Devon, Ben, and Chrissy, right? JP probably knew since he walked by him digging it up. But all of those people weren’t voting with Devon, so how did he know? Obviously, we the audience know Ben and Devon are working together. But shouldn’t Ryan wonder who the blabbermouth was?

Yea, I was surprised that convo didn't expose Ben's duplicitousness.

18 hours ago, MissEwa said:

YMMV, but I thought he was joking. I feel like Devon has this deadpan humour thing going on and doesn't take the game very seriously at all, but I could well be attributing things to him that aren't there. 

Someone mentioned in another thread earlier in the season that there were some extra vids with Devon confessionals where he was talking about how he's running the game and whatnot, so I think Devon believes he is playing the best game.

11 hours ago, SVNBob said:

The background music even went a little bit "doink?" at [Devon saying Lauren was almost as good as him].

I noticed that, too. I loled. And honestly that made me think maybe I should take Devon off my possible winners list.

6 hours ago, NutMeg said:

She has good game play all right, but [Sandra] wasn't "older" her first time, was she?

 

5 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

Sara and Kim played great games. I don't know their exact ages but neither of them were exactly early 20's. They were both well into careers and working hard to improve their lives. So are we only talking women in their 40's?

Sandra was 29 in Pearl Islands and 35 in HvV. Tina was 40, Kim was 29, Sarah was 32, Vecepia was 36, and Denise was 41. Lauren is only 35, so I'm not sure if she's really an older women. Probably for Survivor though she would be considered one, sadly.

5 hours ago, Lamb18 said:

What I am wondering if the early Ben/Chrissy alliance is still in effect but just masked under all this moving around.

Same here. I think it's possible Ben could end up going back to Chrissy/Ryan and Devon/Lauren could be in trouble. I mean that would probably be a better move for him.

Edited December 1, 2017 by peachmangosteen

[ghoulina]

21 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

Lauren brought it up first. And I tend to think she actually meant it. Lauren must know that Ben will likely be her biggest competition in the end and she came for that money, baby!

Okay, thanks. And I agree, I see no reason for her to mention it if she wasn't serious. But they must have decided it wasn't the right time - and I agree. 

[peachmangosteen]

Oh , I keep forgetting to mention what was possibly my fave part of bot eps, Chrissy saying "That was an incredible tight alliance," so disdainfully after the Joe vote. I loled so hard.

3 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

Okay, thanks. And I agree, I see no reason for her to mention it if she wasn't serious. But they must have decided it wasn't the right time - and I agree. 

I'm not sure if I agree or not.

[ghoulina]

6 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

I'm not sure if I agree or not.

I just think if they took Ben out, there's always a chance that Chrissy and Ryan would be able to pull the Coconuts over to THEIR side ("See, they can't even be loyal to Ben, how can you trust them to be loyal to YOU?" "Now's our chance. They're all so likeable. Let's take the rest of them out, and let the jury decide which one of us oddballs and outcasts to vote for.") Now their numbers are a little safer and strong, IMO. But I could be totally wrong. I'm not the best strategist!

[KimberStormer]

13 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

I just think if they took Ben out, there's always a chance that Chrissy and Ryan would be able to pull the Coconuts over to THEIR side ("See, they can't even be loyal to Ben, how can you trust them to be loyal to YOU?"

Impossible.  As far as the Coconuts knew, they had betrayed Ben the last vote.  They never thought Devon, Lauren, and Ashley were aligned with Ben.  Neither did Chrissy or Ryan.  It could not have been a talking point.  That's the brilliance of Devon's scheme!

4 hours ago, Nashville said:

I totally agree, and IMHO this exposes Mike’s Achilles’ heel; at his core psyche, Mike is not a natural villain.  

 

Cutting Ben at this point would have been strategic suicide for Lauren.  At this moment, look at the results of the options:

1. Keeping Ben and voting out Joe preserves a 4strong Lauren/Ben/Devon/Ashley ruling junta which can run the table down to at least F5.
2. Keeping Joe and voting out Ben at this point in the game cuts Lauren’s voting bloc numbers too soon.  The result would be the Fab Four becoming a 3strong Lauren/Devon/Ashley alliance which could easily be outflanked if Joe and Mike were to flip back and form a 4strong with Chrissy and Ryan.  In effect, Lauren would be relinquishing control of the game to Mike and Joe, and putting her trust (and her game) in their hands - and what basis does Lauren have to believe such immense trust in J&M would be rewarded?

In truth, I think Joe and Mike slipped up presenting themselves as a solid twofer at this stage of the game.  In a game where the exterior-to-them power balance are two groups differentiated by two votes, their ability to flip at whim a two-vote swing at any TC is simply too large a threat for everybody else to tolerate.  This is exactly why Lauren - and Devon, and Ashley - couldn’t, shouldn’t flip on Ben right now; doing so would reduce the faction differential to one vote.  A flipping two-person vote bloc would hold all control and power by virtue of flipping back and forth with each TC vote, reducing in turns each exterior group’s power by one vote.

For the reason above I think this analysis, while totally sound to us the viewers who knew the actual score, doesn't work according to who knew what in the actual game.  Voting out Ben would have made 100% sense to Joe and Mike, and made them all the happier to stay in their alliance.  It would have been not only expected but delightful to them, particularly Joe, who dislikes Ben the most.  We saw that Mike is too dumb to consider flipping to Ryan -- the Coconuts were too busy patting themselves on the back for being "on the top", and how they were the better surgeons who could actually manage a 5-man alliance, etc.  Also there is Lauren's second vote, which would make them flipping a 4-4 tie and rock draw.

I think what they've done instead is give Ben a whole lot of power, even more than he had before.  He knows everything and has connections to everybody.  Now HE could easily grab Chrissy, Ryan, and Mike, and outfox the Lauren/Ashley/Devon trio with his idol and knowledge of what they're doing, if he wanted to.  Ben has all the options, knows everything, he's incredibly dangerous at FTC, he's playing super hard, and he's smart and a proven good liar.  Keeping him was playing it safe, and I know everyone loves to hate on the big moves around here but I don't think playing it safe is going to win them the game in this case.

(I know I am an island of one on this one, but I don't think "real Mike" is a good person either.  He's a jerk in any persona.)

[ljenkins782]

On 11/30/2017 at 3:33 PM, MissEwa said:

This episode...

FINALLY something happened that was worth watching. Although I'm a little annoyed they didn't vote out Ryan, I do sort of get why they went the safe option. Lauren is great, and I know he's getting a little full of himself but for some reason I find Devon kind of endearing. He's got a lot of bonehead goofball about him but he is pretty clued in, I think. And I feel like the double-agent strategy is a new thing so good on him for coming up with that. 

 

It does feel like the first bit of really new strategy we've seen in a long time. I think there have been some people who have had their feet in 2 alliances (most recently Hannah from GenX vs Millenials had people from 2 separate alliances giving her info and it's been too long to remember for sure, but I kinda feel like Jonny FairPlay did some double dealing back in Pearl Islands), but this kind of complete con job seems new. If it does end up flipping the game on its head completely, I wonder how it will affect future players and their trust issues, lol. 

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Oh , I keep forgetting to mention what was possibly my fave part of bot eps, Chrissy saying "That was an incredibly tight alliance," so disdainfully after the Joe vote. I loled so hard.

I laughed at the one too. I go back and forth on Chrissy, her truly lame attempt to bring Lauren onto her sinking ship was insulting in its hamfistedness and her pouting when she realized she'd been *gasp* lied to was a bad look, but that comment made me laugh. 

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I just think if they took Ben out, there's always a chance that Chrissy and Ryan would be able to pull the Coconuts over to THEIR side ("See, they can't even be loyal to Ben, how can you trust them to be loyal to YOU?"

Impossible.  As far as the Coconuts knew, they had betrayed Ben the last vote.  They never thought Devon, Lauren, and Ashley were aligned with Ben.  Neither did Chrissy or Ryan.  It could not have been a talking point.  That's the brilliance of Devon's scheme!

 

True. I really believe Mike and Joe fully bought into Ben's act and due to Mike's inability to recognize reality in any way (i.e., insisting that his wasted idol play was actually genius, thinking he was "on top" because he and Joe happened to survive one vote, etc), the Ben vote would probably have further cemented their delusion that they were on the upswing. Had they chopped Ben now, they could have taken Joe or Mike out next time, since they can't both win immunity. And as noted above, the likelihood of Chrissy ever working with Joe was minimal and Ashley was also not inclined to work with him for long, so neither alliance was going to be welcoming Joe with open arms.

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Sandra was 29 in Pearl Islands and 35 in HvV. Tina was 40, Kim was 29, Sarah was 32, Vecepia was 36, and Denise was 41. Lauren is only 35, so I'm not sure if she's really an older women. Probably for Survivor though she would be considered one, sadly.

She definitely would. Cirie was 35 in Exile Island and they put her on the "older women" tribe. 

Tina was only 40 when she won? Damn girl, get out of the sun! If you'd told me she was in her 60s, I honestly wouldn't have questioned it. 

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What I am wondering if the early Ben/Chrissy alliance is still in effect but just masked under all this moving around.

Same here. I think it's possible Ben could end up going back to Chrissy/Ryan and Devon/Lauren could be in trouble. I mean that would probably be a better move for him.

 

I like the fact there are so many possibilities for how the game could skew at this point. The season started slow, but it's getting good.

Quote

I think what they've done instead is give Ben a whole lot of power, even more than he had before.  He knows everything and has connections to everybody.  Now HE could easily grab Chrissy, Ryan, and Mike, and outfox the Lauren/Ashley/Devon trio with his idol and knowledge of what they're doing, if he wanted to.  Ben has all the options, knows everything, he's incredibly dangerous at FTC, he's playing super hard, and he's smart and a proven good liar.  Keeping him was playing it safe, and I know everyone loves to hate on the big moves around here but I don't think playing it safe is going to win them the game in this case.

He could also be in the most precarious position too, it all depends how things go down. Say he flips back to Chrissy/Ryan for whatever reason, then he's got Devon/Lauren/Ashley mad at him and then they rat him out for his double agent thing and then Chrissy/Ryan are mad too and they all turn on him. If the jury is bitter, he could take the fall as the biggest liar of them all.

[peachmangosteen]

1 hour ago, ljenkins782 said:

She definitely would. Cirie was 35 in Exile Island and they put her on the "older women" tribe. 

Sigh, I'm 33 and I feel old enough as it is, but this really cuts deep!

Quote

I like the fact there are so many possibilities for how the game could skew at this point. The season started slow, but it's getting good.

I agree. But at the same time I'm not really that invested in rooting for anyone besides Lauren and in fact actually at least half hate everyone else lol.

[ratgirlagogo]

On 11/30/2017 at 3:42 PM, tvfanatic13 said:

On 11/30/2017 at 1:33 PM, Ms Blue Jay said:

I think Jeff feels goofy because now with Twitter and stuff, everyone on there, (like me) loves to make fun of him and how he says the same things every episode.  Wanna know what you're playing for?  And Come on in Guys!  Now that I've noticed it I can't stop noticing it and everyone must mock him online.  So he feels silly.  This is my guess.

My brother pointed out these catchphrases to me.  I swear for 20 seasons I didn't notice "Come on in Guys!"  Now it's like the glass has shattered.  It's all I can focus on.  Why does he always say that and why always with the same inflection?

And always looking down into the sand...

Always looking at his FEET!  I say this because while I did  start to notice the catchphrases early on, only when Dalton Ross at EW started pointing it out around ten seasons in did I notice that Come On In Guys is ALWAYS said while he stares at his own feet.  In fact it's part of his coverage this week:

Quote

DR: Let’s finally get to the bottom of something you know I have written about for a long time: Why do you look down at your feet when you say “Come on in, guys!” and do you even realize you are doing it?

JP: Ha! I never realized it until… you brought it up! Now I think about it almost every time. Like most of the “things” I do in every episode, it has an origin story. It started as just an honest moment of me thinking about the challenge that was about to take place and trying to remember what the heck I was going to tell them. That look down was a bit of a transition from my own private moment to welcoming them to join me. It’s probably similar to a baseball batter that has a routine he does before every pitch, or [tennis player Rafael] Nadal before each serve. (Yes, I realize I just compared myself to Nadal.) But now, thanks to you, I am aware every frickin’ time! But that doesn’t mean I’m going to stop. It’s here to stay!

 

The little invitation for audition tapes weirded me out as well.  Although it was also funny that while the closed captioner wrote "come and light your torch" Jeff actually said "come and have me snuff out your torch."

Edited December 3, 2017 by ratgirlagogo