S04.E06: When Harry Met Harry...

[Trini]

Quote

ONE HARRY, TWO HARRYS, THREE HARRYS, FOUR - When collectors of Native American artifacts are attacked by a meta named Mina Chayton (guest star Chelsea Kurtz) who can bring inanimate objects to life, Barry turns to a surprising ally for help. Determined to crack the identity of The Thinker, Harry enlists Cisco's help to summon the ultimate think tank: "The Council of Wells'," a roundtable of the brightest Harrison Wells' from various Earths.

Brent Crowell directed the episode written by Jonathan Butler & Gabriel Garza

[Trini]

Producer preview:

[mtlchick]

If you ever wanted to find out how Wells would look like if it was from SNL's Sprockets,  Mad Max, Gandalf or Hugh Hefner mixed with traces of Owen Wilson and Matthew McConaughey, wonder no more!  (And to think there were more in the script.)

 

I missed parts of this, but either you're going to love Ralph or he's going to be a long term nuisance.  I'm not sure where I stand on that yet.

[cambridgeguy]

Barry's life would be a lot easier if he slapped the cuffs on his opponents before engaging in the witty banter.

[GHScorpiosRule]

16 hours ago, mtlchick said:

 

I missed parts of this, but either you're going to love Ralph or he's going to be a long term nuisance.  I'm not sure where I stand on that yet.

I’m DEFINITELY in the latter group. I can’t STAND him. Can he go away now? Or are we stuck with him for the rest of the season?

And My God. That has to be the WORST costume ever! Ralph is like some bizarre version of Plastic Man.

Mina reminded me of that guy from Smallville who was possessed and thought he was the hero. Also Native American. I’m blanking on the name, but he had that kryptonian knife that disintegrated when Lionel and Lex touched it so we never knew who Segeeth(??) was. I mean WE, the viewers knew, but not Clark.

Edited November 15, 2017 by GHScorpiosRule

[KirkB]

Cavanagh was certainly enjoying himself. But then again, he usually does.

Ralph is quickly wearing out his welcome for me. I thought he was funny at first but the annoyance is beginning to grate.

I liked Nina. And I agreed with her motivation, just not her methods.

BTW,  maybe I'm missing something, but what good are cuffs the person wearing them can actually pick?

[tennisgurl]

I gotta say, I think Ralph has a lot of potential. He will hopefully dial back on the sleazy now (the comments about women's bra sizes seems REALLY bad in light of recent events) but it was nice seeing him realize being a hero was a serious commitment, and it was nice of him to send that artifact to the tribe it came from and how hard he was hit by people getting hurt. I think its a good idea to have a character here who is really different than the other characters and doesn't automatically click with everyone, and has a different power set. Plus, the actor is just naturally very likable, and I like his relationship with Barry. Its nice to see Barry being sort of a mentor. 

The Counsel of Wells was pretty amusing, and you can tell this is Cavanaghs dream job. I especially enjoyed pretentious German Wells who dresses like Steve Jobs. And Cisco got to give him a speech about loving yourself, which was pretty sweet. I admit I giggled a lot when Harry mentioned calling his friends, and Cisco was just like "we know literally all of your friends" and everyone was nodding in agreement. 

I liked Nina, and I hope that she can come back and maybe learn her lesson about fighting the good fight without murdering people with statues. Her goal was pretty admirable, but how she went about it was WAY too far. Its kind of funny that for all Brain Guy created the bus metas for his evil means, these metas are significantly less evil than the particle accelerator metas. 

[quarks]

I'm genuinely not sure I can be coherent about this one, but let me get this straight:

1. Caitlin gives valuable information, Ralph responds by listing her bra measurements, Caitlin and Iris look uncomfortable and disgusted, and yet, everyone shrugs this off and moves on, and it's ALL COOL because by the end of the episode Ralph has learned his lesson about being a hero?  (At the cost of injuring a kid, but moving on.)

2. In an episode referencing the issue of Native artifacts, the Sioux woman ends up in jail, Barry stops her by threatening to destroy part of her heritage, and Ralph, a white guy gets the credit for restoring Sioux artifacts?????????????

[Machiabelly]

No one ever suspects the guy in the wheelchair...says the guy in the wheelchair. 

 

Bwhahahaha

[benteen]

48 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

Barry's life would be a lot easier if he slapped the cuffs on his opponents before engaging in the witty banter.

Seriously.  Just zoom in and knock her out.  Case closed.  But no...let's stand there, act like you don't have superspeed and allow her to do something to put yourself and your mission in danger.

That being said, fun episode.  I like Ralph.

[Lantern7]

When Cliff rolled into frame, did anybody else expect Barry and Joe to facepalm, muttering, "Not this shit again"?

Ralph still needs work. I mean, he can be obnoxious and not a drag at the same time. At least the effects are good with him, though that girl must have been half-passed-out to not run screaming from his balloon animals.

Why did Harry go for his makeshift council? I don't remember any of them from the recruiting drive last season. Maybe they didn't answer Harry's probes, and that's how we got stuck with Huckster as the apparent best of the lot. Still half-expecting a female Wells, but not Tom Cavanaghs in semi-convincing drag. I don't think the series can do "Crisis of Infinite Wells" in a "Zeppo"-like episode. Maybe as a one-shot webcomic?

Black Bison works for me, at least compared to the canon. Like Hazard, you can sympathize, but she goes about it in the wrong way.

Killer Frost at Burning Man . . . wasn't that Ronnie's original nickname?

36 minutes ago, quarks said:

In an episode referencing the issue of Native artifacts, the Sioux woman ends up in jail, Barry stops her by threatening to destroy part of her heritage, and Ralph, a white guy gets the credit for restoring Sioux artifacts?????????????

1. Ralph needed more of a decent moment than saving the security guard. 2. I'm thinking the lady's heritage might have been an in-joke for diehard comic fans.

[catrice2]

Please...the multiple Harry, Wells, etc. is annoying. I am the only person who could care less about this character, any version of him.  Ralph is a no go for me.....just when I was starting to care about the show again....

[ottoDbusdriver]

Not having Mina go straight to Iron Heights was just all kinds of stupid.  Her metapowers were lacklustre, inconsistent, and easily defeated.  How was she able to detect the presence of the mannequins/statues/armored suit -- because it certainly wasn't line of sight ?
I just don't see a very stilted slow-moving Viking warrior getting the drop on Barry.  While Mina was monologuing on the street, Barry could have easily retrieved the part of the necklace and slapped the cuffs on her right then, but then Ralph wouldn't have learned his lesson.  

And where were the girl's parents ?  They seemed to have no problem leaving their child alone with a stranger.  And how do they not know that Ralph and Barry are the heroes that saved their daughter -- because there would be no other explanation about why these 2 guys would have any interest in this health status of this girl ?

Since when do museums have their very own armored car service ?  Because that armored car was museum-branded.

Ralph's superhero outfit was terrible, particularly the mask.

 

Edited November 15, 2017 by ottoDbusdriver

[tennisgurl]

I laughed pretty hard at the whole opening sequence with the mugger trying to rob Ralph and Barry. For one thing, why do muggers even exist in this city anymore? You seem to have a good 70% chance of mugging someone with super powers or ninja training something. And for another, I am basically convinced that the entire city knows that Barry is The Flash, they're just too polite to actually say anything. They think the fact that Barry thinks he is being sneaky is adorable. 

[Lantern7]

2 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I laughed pretty hard at the whole opening sequence with the mugger trying to rob Ralph and Barry.

Damn, I forget about that. "YOU SHOT ME IN THE ASS!!!" Ralph's a putz, but you can't totally hate him for that. And he still had the hole in his jacket in the following scene.

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, quarks said:

1. Caitlin gives valuable information, Ralph responds by listing her bra measurements, Caitlin and Iris look uncomfortable and disgusted, and yet, everyone shrugs this off and moves on, and it's ALL COOL because by the end of the episode Ralph has learned his lesson about being a hero?  (At the cost of injuring a kid, but moving on.)

2. In an episode referencing the issue of Native artifacts, the Sioux woman ends up in jail, Barry stops her by threatening to destroy part of her heritage, and Ralph, a white guy gets the credit for restoring Sioux artifacts?????????????

1.  Ralph is kind of skeevy, but I think a good bit of his skeevyness is a kind of preemptive defensive measure to keep people/women from getting close to him.  Once upon a time he cared so much about justice for a murdered woman that he flushed his career down the toilet trying to nail her murderer.  He spent the years after that trying to avoid caring about others by ensuring they didn't care about him.  It's kind of gross but I don't think it's the only part of Ralph that there is.

2.  These bits I have less trouble with.  Yeah, the Sioux woman who brutally murdered a guy and tried to kill other people went to jail.  Barry stopped her by threatening part of her heritage.  Which A) he stopped her and she really kind of needed to be stopped.  and B) Given Barry's speed and reaction time her heritage wasn't under any real threat at all.  Also, yep, a white guy gets the credit (except nobody knows what happened except him and Barry) for restoring Sioux artifacts because he quietly stole the necklace and mailed it to the reservation and did not murder or injure anybody doing it.

Edited November 15, 2017 by johntfs

[Cthulhudrew]

1 hour ago, cambridgeguy said:

Barry's life would be a lot easier if he slapped the cuffs on his opponents before engaging in the witty banter.

At the very least, don't stand around in front of the mannequin that the bad guy just animated seconds earlier and engage in witty banter.

[CletusMusashi]

Points to Cisco for making a Rick and Morty reference.

[mxc90]

I was surprised Ralph didn't hit on the doctor or give her measurements during his brief moment of remorse.

How is a "roar" produced from a skeleton of a T Rex?

[MarkHB]

Dollars to unspoiled donuts the little girl's mother's name is Sue Dearbon.

And I had to drop in here, just to give a shout-out to another appearance by America's Sweetheart, Donna Pescow!

[Richness]

I don't remember season 2's Harry being this annoying. Sure, his growled Christian Bale Batman voice got on my nerves, but that was the extent of it. However, Harry seems to be dialed up to 11 this season.

 

I also didn't realize Plastic Man, Elongated Man, or whoever Ralph is suppose to be, was going to be a regular character this season. Except for his creepy pervert factor, most of the character's antics are fairly amusing. The Jim Carry clone playing him is quite amazing. But for the love of Cisco, please make him a better costume. That introductory scene with the crotch adjust is  going to linger on my brain like Playboy Wales did to Cisco.

[twoods]

I am really missing Julian and Wally- the Flash team doesn't seem complete without them. Ralph is okay but his schtick is going to get old really quick. At least Harry is back, but it's not enough. 

[Trini]

So I skipped all the parts with the multiple Wells; and it looks like I didn't miss much.

4 hours ago, mtlchick said:

I missed parts of this, but either you're going to love Ralph or he's going to be a long term nuisance.  I'm not sure where I stand on that yet.

Nuisance.
I'm still not warmed up to Dibny. I don't hate him, and sometimes he's funny, but I just don't know why he's here eating screentime. What I do hate is how he's eating the VFX budget -- I'd rather see Vibe out in the field than This Season's New Guy.
 

3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I liked Nina, and I hope that she can come back and maybe learn her lesson about fighting the good fight without murdering people with statues. Her goal was pretty admirable, but how she went about it was WAY too far. Its kind of funny that for all Brain Guy created the bus metas for his evil means, these metas are significantly less evil than the particle accelerator metas. 

Well, they've only had about a month with their powers. Give it time. ;-)

Kind of a 'meh' episode for me. However, we're finally getting some significant movement on the DeVoe plot! I wish they hadn't ended on Barry and Joe looking puzzled at DeVoe in the wheelchair, since they've already dealt with a villain in a wheelchair.

[TDT]

4 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

And My God. That has to be the WORST costume ever! Ralph is like some bizarre version of Plastic Man.

Well they actually are combining both Plastic Man and Elongated Man for Ralph's character

1 hour ago, MarkHB said:

Dollars to unspoiled donuts the little girl's mother's name is Sue Dearbon.

You may have just given away a subplot in the season finale lol

[Trini]

Oh, and it looks like the mugger was the same mugger from season 1! And Barry speeded him to the hospital with no costume or anything! I guess he really doesn't care about that guy knowing. ?

3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

... And for another, I am basically convinced that the entire city knows that Barry is The Flash, they're just too polite to actually say anything. They think the fact that Barry thinks he is being sneaky is adorable.

All I need is for the show to let me know that Captain Singh knows -- he HAS to know!

[thuganomics85]

Ralph might be a skeevy dick (he would totally be that guy who looks remembers women's measurements instead of anything else), but I can see his side on at least two things: 1) I totally think Cisco half-assed his costume on purpose (although, I really can't blame him) and 2) he kind of actually has a point about how Barry probably did have time to both save the the guy and capture Mina during the first confrontation.  Granted, I know the show is always at a risk at making him too powerful, but it does feel like at times Barry could succeed at both of whatever two goals he is trying to accomplish, but he just gives up.

Other then that, I'm still on the fence with Ralph.  He can be very obnoxious at times and I do feel there is a risk of being too much of him, but he has his moments, and, honestly, Hartley Sawyer is just so good in the role, that he makes things that I'd normally hate be kind of bearable.  I hope they figure out a right fit soon.  They did seem to be taking a step in the right direction at the end, at least.

Mina was a decent "meta of the week" in that she was a classic take on someone who actually had understandable and sympathetic motivations for her actions, but overall, she still went about it the worst way possible.  Even if I could look past her murdering the first guy and trying to kill the second, she had no issues fucking up innocent cops either, so she really was a danger, even if I felt for her on some levels.  Ralph secretly giving the Sioux the artifact back was getting into condescending territory, I guess, but I really don't know how else they would have pulled this of, unless they just chunked the entire script and made Mina more of an anti-hero, who didn't actually kill anyone.

The Council of Wells might as well have been called the "Tom Cavanagh Showcase" for all it was worth.  Sure, it was fun watching the various Wells (I swear, Mad Max Wells 2.0. honestly sounded like Slade Wilson/Manu Bennett, which was nuts), but it kind of went on too long for me.  I just want more of Harry/Cisco.

So, the Thinker is Clifford DeVoe, and while he isn't all pale and creepy in real life, he is wheelchair bound, Season One Eobard Thawne style, I see.  Also, his assistant is either his wife or is pretending to be his wife for their cover.

Worst part was the gratuitous commercial... err, the "special extend scene" with Caitlin and Ralph.  Even Danielle Panabaker and Hartley Sawyer looked like they doing everything they could to not fall asleep during that bit.

The Wests were kind of in the background this time, although I did love Joe slowly moving away from the stone tiger.  Poor guy has seen way too much!

[Jediknight]

Every week I get more convinced that Hartley Sawyer is a young Jim Carrey clone.

Country Western Wells should have been on the council, and Gandalf Wells should have been brought back.

[rmontro]

I often think they're taking the lighthearted comedy approach too far, but I think that so far this is easily my favorite season of The Flash.  Mainly because it's not so deadly serious, and also because they're not dealing with a speedster super villain, which got tiresome.  Barry doesn't always have to be facing a darker version of himself.

I also like that they've brought in The Elongated Man, wish they would go ahead and call him that.  It's a goofy power, but it's refreshing to see something a little different.  Hopefully they will do something with his costume to make it look more like a real superhero suit.

The actor who plays Harrison Wells does a pretty good Matthew McConaughey impression.

Edited November 15, 2017 by rmontro

[cambridgeguy]

Quote

Ralph might be a skeevy dick (he would totally be that guy who looks remembers women's measurements instead of anything else), but I can see his side on at least two things: 1) I totally think Cisco half-assed his costume on purpose (although, I really can't blame him) and 2) he kind of actually has a point about how Barry probably did have time to both save the the guy and capture Mina during the first confrontation.  Granted, I know the show is always at a risk at making him too powerful, but it does feel like at times Barry could succeed at both of whatever two goals he is trying to accomplish, but he just gives up.

Yeah, even a rushed Cisco would never give Barry such a crappy costume. 

Ralph should have pointed out that Mina had maybe a 15-20 second head start while Barry destroyed the armor so a non-superpowered hero who can jog had enough time to catch her even after saving the douche rich guy. 

[benteen]

10 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

Damn, I forget about that. "YOU SHOT ME IN THE ASS!!!" Ralph's a putz, but you can't totally hate him for that. And he still had the hole in his jacket in the following scene.

LOL, I forgot about that too.  That whole sequence was really funny.  Barry didn't have much to be angry about there...the guy was a mugger but a mugger who just tried to commit murder.

This episode did show the problems with Barry's powers.  He confronts Mina and stands still long enough for her to animate something and attack him.  All he had to do was speed in and slap the cuff on her.  Mina is someone without superspeed who had less than a 30 second head start when Barry saved that art guy.  Yet Barry calls it a day?  I know you don't want to make your hero all powerful because that gets boring.  Then find a scenario that doesn't rely on him intentionally slowing down so that the villain can catch up.

Dibney is an off-beat character and I like that addition to the show. 

[Lady Calypso]

8 hours ago, Richness said:

I don't remember season 2's Harry being this annoying. Sure, his growled Christian Bale Batman voice got on my nerves, but that was the extent of it. However, Harry seems to be dialed up to 11 this season.

This just doesn't feel like Harry, but yet another odd Harrison Wells doppelganger. I don't like it. I get that Tom Cavanagh probably loves playing different versions of himself every season, but then they shouldn't have brought back Harry and tarnish who he's been up until this season. This is definitely the first noticable difference, and I don't like it. I loved season 2 Harry. I thought he was the best Harrison Wells that we've had, even surpassing Eobard Thawne's Harrison Wells. I get that he could possibly change in a season, but this is too much. I liked Batman Harry, and I liked that he was serious to balance out Cisco's goofy personality. I liked how they clashed in personality, but still got along. This is simply not the Harry I wanted. 

Which is why I didn't like the Council of Wells. In fact, it downright got on my nerves. I did not like any of the Harrison Wells doppelgangers, and thought they tried a little too hard with the subplot. The only part I liked was the Harry/Cisco scene, where Harry is telling Cisco that the doppelgangers are not the exact replica of him (if someone could let Team Arrow know that about Black Siren, that would be great!), while Cisco points out that they still have some similar flaws. 

I'm not sure why, but I felt like this was the weakest episode of the season. I simply didn't like all of it. I did think that Ralph's point about Barry being able to both save the innocent and stop the villains was a valid point. It is possible to do both with his speed, unless he's incapacitated like he was in the second fight scene, but that's because they needed Ralph to learn about saving people. I also did like Ralph learning that lesson. I thought, once they toned down on the skeevy (which I really hate, by the way), I started to understand him and enjoy his scenes. I actually liked his scenes by the end. He's been downright irritating and gross thus far, so I needed his lesson in humility. I can tolerate some of the flirting and womanizing behaviour, but the naming off bra sizes took it too far for me. I need him to never do that again. 

I liked the villain of the week, Mina. I thought she was pretty good in her task to save her heritage, even if she was a bit short sighted. I wouldn't mind seeing her return. 

I think the mugger in the opening scene is the mugger from season 1 that Barry stopped early on when he was having fun with his powers. Which is hilarious because both times, he didn't have a costume on so this mugger has been keeping Barry's secret longer than many have!

Still a strong season, though. Even if this was the weakest of the season, it's not my least favourite episode. 

[Writing Wrongs]

9 hours ago, Trini said:

So I skipped all the parts with the multiple Wells

As did I. This episode was meh for me.

[Goldmoon]

I would like Wells to team up with a different doppel every week. And I too heard a Slade Wilson impersonation. Hate Dipley. Good thing I don't watch often.

[mrspidey]

14 hours ago, mxc90 said:

How is a "roar" produced from a skeleton of a T Rex?

Dark matter, obviously.

[HunterHunted]

16 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

Damn, I forget about that. "YOU SHOT ME IN THE ASS!!!" Ralph's a putz, but you can't totally hate him for that. And he still had the hole in his jacket in the following scene.

5 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

I think the mugger in the opening scene is the mugger from season 1 that Barry stopped early on when he was having fun with his powers. Which is hilarious because both times, he didn't have a costume on so this mugger has been keeping Barry's secret longer than many have!

 

It's the same guy.

[KirkB]

Wow. That's...is unlucky a big enough word?

Edited November 15, 2017 by KirkB

[johntfs]

Let's just say that mugger made a poor career choice and leave it there...

[mxc90]

Next week, let's see if Barry and Joe have learnt their lesson from the last guy pretending to be in a wheelchair and demand Devoe to stand up and walk.

Edited November 15, 2017 by mxc90

[KirkB]

41 minutes ago, mxc90 said:

Next week, let's see if Barry and Joe have learnt their lesson from the last guy pretending to be in a wheelchair and demand Devoe to stand up and walk.

Just get Ralph to kick the chair out from under him. I bet he'd be willing.

[Trini]

21 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

And My God. That has to be the WORST costume ever! Ralph is like some bizarre version of Plastic Man.

20 hours ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

Ralph's superhero outfit was terrible, particularly the mask.

17 hours ago, Richness said:

But for the love of Cisco, please make him a better costume. That introductory scene with the crotch adjust is  going to linger on my brain like Playboy Wales did to Cisco.

15 hours ago, rmontro said:

  Hopefully they will do something with his costume to make it look more like a real superhero suit.

11 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

Yeah, even a rushed Cisco would never give Barry such a crappy costume. 

I think the suit was supposed to be lame. Cisco did say it was a prototype. I'm sure the real costume is coming later.

[immortalfrieza]

11 hours ago, benteen said:

This episode did show the problems with Barry's powers.  He confronts Mina and stands still long enough for her to animate something and attack him.  All he had to do was speed in and slap the cuff on her.  Mina is someone without superspeed who had less than a 30 second head start when Barry saved that art guy.  Yet Barry calls it a day?  I know you don't want to make your hero all powerful because that gets boring.  Then find a scenario that doesn't rely on him intentionally slowing down so that the villain can catch up.

That's exactly why I liked this version of The Flash at first, because at the beginning they kept his speed down to a level where villains with normal human vision and reaction times could actually realistically seem like they could beat him or get away. I love that Ralph pointed out that Barry could have saved the rich guy and caught the supervillain easily enough because it's true. Barry is so insanely fast now especially after getting out of the Speed Force that he should be able to take down every Meta short of another speedster effortlessly before they could even blink much less use their powers, which is probably the reason why the last 3 seasons had their Big Bad be a speedster. This is demonstrated even in this very episode with the Indian pottery and how Barry was able to cuff the Meta before it even came down. However, they made the same mistake the comic books did and just kept ramping up his speed every season instead of as they should have had him stay at the max speed he had at season 1 and just get better at using the speed he had more effectively and intelligently and broaden the applications of it to beat his opponents, like how he learned how to throw lightning bolts in season 2. As a result they have to have Barry be an idiot every single episode to keep the plot going, they've had to for quite a while. I was dreading Barry coming back for this reason because I knew he would come out of the Speed Force even faster than he was when he went in.

I loved the Council of Wells this episode. It was obvious Tom was having a freaking blast playing these 4 versions of Wells and it came through in his performance, they were hilarious and I hope they make a return. Ooh, especially Gandalf Wells, I want to know whether he's just a die hard Lord of the Rings Cosplayer or if there's actually somewhere in the multiverse a universe where the Lord of the Rings is real and actually happening.

Ralph is funny and I was expecting him to get the dose of reality he needs to become a real superhero in some episode somewhere along the line. He's just so over the top about how sleazy he is I can't help but laugh at the sheer audacity of the writers with all they're having this character do. Hope they have something more for Plasongated Man down the road.

Edited November 16, 2017 by immortalfrieza

[statsgirl]

On 11/14/2017 at 9:52 PM, quarks said:

I'm genuinely not sure I can be coherent about this one, but let me get this straight:

1. Caitlin gives valuable information, Ralph responds by listing her bra measurements, Caitlin and Iris look uncomfortable and disgusted, and yet, everyone shrugs this off and moves on, and it's ALL COOL because by the end of the episode Ralph has learned his lesson about being a hero?  (At the cost of injuring a kid, but moving on.)

2. In an episode referencing the issue of Native artifacts, the Sioux woman ends up in jail, Barry stops her by threatening to destroy part of her heritage, and Ralph, a white guy gets the credit for restoring Sioux artifacts?????????????

I don't know how much input AJK had into this episode, but it feels like it's got his fingerprints all over it.

Ralph has already had more time spent on him than Iris did all season.  I don't know  how much I can take of the "Only Men Matter" of this show.

23 hours ago, johntfs said:

Also, yep, a white guy gets the credit (except nobody knows what happened except him and Barry) for restoring Sioux artifacts because he quietly stole the necklace and mailed it to the reservation and did not murder or injure anybody doing it.

I find the way the story was written incredibly offensive and I"m not even First Nations.

Edited November 16, 2017 by statsgirl

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

I don't know how much input AJK had into this episode, but it feels like it's got his fingerprints all over it.

Ralph has already had more time spent on him than Iris did all season.  I don't know  how much I can take of the "Only Men Matter" of this show.

I find the way the story was written incredibly offensive and I"m not even First Nations.

I wasn't really offended by the story, just kind of annoyed by it.  Two episodes ago gunmen shot at Joe and Barry.  They fired their guns and Barry had time to knock one bullet away, "walk" to the gunmen, position their weapons such that the recoil would knock each man out and then casually "walk" back over to Joe and grab the other bullet.  And Black Bison somehow got away from him at the collector's place.

Over on Legends of Tomorrow they're doing an excellently nuanced characterization of Zari Tomaz, a Muslim woman who has recently joined the team.  Here we have Black Bison, who is apparently from a tribe with Chief Running Stereotype at its head.  And apparently after the bus she goes from civil disobedience to murder?  Leap much?

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

You know what, there were some noticeable flaws & faux pas made in this episode, but I'm too busy enjoying the lighter comedic atmosphere to let the mentioned things ruin it all for me.

Barry yelling about Dibny shooting the mugger, Dibny in general [women's measurements], not apprehending Mina right away, absurdness of the Council of Wells, etc.  All of that was missteps, but what worked did because the show made the commitment to be better overall.  If the show was still following the same mold  that was moody & depressive atmosphere as last year, this episode would have been an absolute clustertruck of a mess.

So, all in all, I'd say the scales about evened out for this episode - and considering the previous 1.5 seasons before this season premiered, that's a hella good average aggregate score.

[marketdoctor]

The biggest issue for me could have been fixed with a little more dialogue:  If Mina's powers extended to blending in or phasing with inanimate objects, it would have made more sense that she could get away from THE FLASH by running away at human speed for 15 seconds (or driving in an identified car in a specific direction.)

And yeah, the lighter parts were good, but Barry blaming Dibney for shooting the mugger was off.  You don't want Dibney to have a point, but he did.

The Council of Wells arc was predictable, but TC had so much fun with it that he took some of the audience with him (including me.)

[statsgirl]

A guy ranking women by their measurements ceased being funny to me around 1970.  It's the quintessential entitled move.  Since AJK's suspension and the reports that he based his off-screen hiring on a woman's physical attractiveness, I wonder if anyone on the Flash production team wishes this episode had been written differently.

Like Mon El on Supergirl, it seems like Ralph is being written as a douche/frat boy at the start and then we're supposed to cheer as he develops a heart and a conscience. But at this point I honestly have no effs to give for that kind of character.  There are more interesting characters than those who come on blindly self-centered.

13 hours ago, johntfs said:

Over on Legends of Tomorrow they're doing an excellently nuanced characterization of Zari Tomaz, a Muslim woman who has recently joined the team.  Here we have Black Bison, who is apparently from a tribe with Chief Running Stereotype at its head.  And apparently after the bus she goes from civil disobedience to murder?  Leap much?

What The Flash does best is write badly anyone who isn't a male character, especially a white male character.  Just look at Iris and Caitlyn.  Iris matters less to Joe than his sons Barry and Wally (who has apparently been replaced by a white guy) and Caitlyn is the sole meta who can't control her powers for no reason that has been explored.

In Black Bison they had the perfect opportunity to put some context into the on-going rape of native culture (residential schools, reservations, sixties scoop, prisons) and instead chose to go with the stereotype and the white guy saving the situation.

Kayti Burt at denofgeek wrote a review of this episode that just nails the problems I have with it.  She goes deeper than the show wants us to analyze but hey, I'm tired of being forced to watch it on a shallow level in order to enjoy it.

Quote

The Flash is not known for pushing the progressive envelope, but it rarely shows the level of cultural tone deafness that is on display in "When Harry Met Harry." Literally every storyline included sexist, racist, or ableist subtext — a distraction in any sociopolitical climate, but one you would hope could be avoided in the current one.

Let's start with the main plot, which saw Barry teaching Dibney how to be a superhero. While you might think this kind of lesson would involve the logistics of superhero-ing — i.e. how to best use is abilities or how to make decisions in a fast-paced environment — it actually involves a much simpler lesson: basic human empathy.

Ralph has to learn how to prioritize preventing or alleviating someone's pain over the glory of catching the bad guy. This is kindergarden level stuff. Maybe this kind of simple superhero storytelling would have flown ten years ago, but pop culture has moved past basic privileged white man pain as an interesting narrative subject, if it was arguably ever even there.

Ralph has been so buffered by his privilege that his entire hero confessional moment is about how he has not had to think about literally anyone else's suffering for the past five years. That is an extraordinary amount of privilege, emotional dumbness, and narcissism at work.  [snip]

It's hard not to cheer for the Black Bison, a marginalized woman trying to reclaim her people's history, when she breaks out of the Central City P.D. using a police mannequin, a contemporary symbol of institutional violence against marginalized people.

[diebartdie]

2 hours ago, statsgirl said:

A guy ranking women by their measurements ceased being funny to me around 1970.  It's the quintessential entitled move.  Since AJK's suspension and the reports that he based his off-screen hiring on a woman's physical attractiveness, I wonder if anyone on the Flash production team wishes this episode had been written differently.

Like Mon El on Supergirl, it seems like Ralph is being written as a douche/frat boy at the start and then we're supposed to cheer as he develops a heart and a conscience. But at this point I honestly have no effs to give for that kind of character. 

HEAR! HEAR!!! Im sure statsgirl knows this but some comments on this thread show that maybe others dont know but those measurements Stretchy Boy was rattling off were not "bra measurements", they were chest / waist / hips and yeah, that kind of male chauvinistic junk went away in the 70's (thankfully). I HATED this episode from top to bottom, every frame of it, I just hated it so much. I hope Stretchy Boy is gone by the end of the season (I would love for Wally to come back OR Gypsy to come be a part of the team!) if he is not, Im not sure how much I'll keep up with this show.

[TwistedandBored]

I dislike Ralph so much. I specially dislike when they made him try to be the white savior in the end-F that. I don't care if he develops later. He can go anytime and I won't miss him. Also, why was the doctor telling Barry and Ralph that girl's condition? You know what I don't care. 

The only good parts of the episode came at the end. 

[johntfs]

I think the show has completely mis-guaged the level of tolerance we would have in the era of Weinstein/Moore/Franken/etc for a "lovable" male sexist pig who blatantly objectifies women.  The show-runners need to make sure that Ralph will either shape the fuck up or ship the fuck out.

Edited November 18, 2017 by johntfs

[ruby24]

I'm guessing he'll undergo a bit of personality change right around episode 14 (the one they're currently supposed to be writing, I believe).