S08.E01: Mercy

[SnarkyTart]

Using up all the ammo to shoot out the windows didn't really make sense in this episode, though I hope we're shown some logical reason for it in the next episode.  The only thing I could come up with to explain it was that it served the purpose of keeping all the Saviors in the compound from shooting back at them, then some of the team will come along and open all the doors to the compound to let the walkers in.  Maybe. 

[smorbie]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

The irony here is that I first really got into this show because it had a bullshit-free, linear approach to storytelling that was straightforward and easy to follow. I'm so over these shows that have to jump around in different time frames just to seem deep and clever. This isn't Westworld (a show I loathed, by the way, for that very reason.)

So yeah - I did not care for all the jumping around and had a hard time figuring out what the time frames were. We left off last season with Negan rallying his people to war. Did they spend the next few months just sitting around thinking about it? Because it seemed like they were gearing up to go back and fight right then and there. How on earth did Rick and his people manage to do all that recon and planning and prep work and how much time has passed and why haven't the Saviors been doing anything while Rick's crew has been doing all this shit?

I'm also worried that the battle we just saw was a jump forward and the rest of the season will go back and build up to that and show us how what led up to it. Ugh - I hate that idea.

I used to navigate all the timey-wimey stuff by looking at Judith.  She was the one constant.  Tiny Judith for like two years after they left the prison mean we were still just a year or so after the ZA.  Last year Judith was bigger, so a little more time had elapsed.  It made sense.  But this year, Judith has really grown, but Maggie's still not showing.  So, I remain confused.

[SnarkyTart]

I sort of "get" the flash forward showing future old man Rick.  What I found the most confusing about the time jumps was the Coral at the gas station being intercepted by Rick before Coral could engage with the Muslim guy, then Coral coming back later to leave food.  Is this all supposed to have happened after the big shoot out/walker horde scene at the savior compound?  Too confusing.

[iMonrey]

Strangely, it didn't really bother me, at the time, that Rick or someone else didn't try to take out Negan while they were "negotiating," assuming Rick was sincere in his offer to let the Saviors surrender Negan (and that one guy did in fact consider the idea of a "time out"). Especially once Rick began his countdown and then took his shot at 7. The way he kept bobbing back and forth between the metal shields gave me the impression he was keeping his ass covered while trying to assess who was armed, what his chances were, where his best shot was going to be, etc.

What did bug me was wondering what the hell the Saviors have been doing all this time while Rick and his crew set this giant plan in motion. We've seen the Saviors foil their plans easily in the past - they pretty much blocked Rick and his friends from getting anywhere in the season 6 finale, at every turn, like they were omniscient. And when Negan said "you have no idea the shit that is about to go down" I thought, surely, Negan has something afoot and once again Rick and his gang will be caught with their pants down. This all just seemed a little too easy after a season of omnipotent Negan.

Edited October 23, 2017 by iMonrey

[festivus]

I'll take Tara until the bitter end of this show if it meant that Maggie would go. I'm so sick of that accent and I do not see a leader at all when I look at her. Glenn would have been a good leader. I'll forever hate this show for killing Glenn instead of her. I don't think Lauren Cohen is a very good actress, but I never had a problem with her in other shows I watched. I just think they made a huge mistake in killing a good actor and keeping one that's not and that I don't think can carry this storyline. 

[tv echo]

I hope I'm completely off about this, but I thought the scenes of Old Rick were not a flash forward but an ominous "what might have been" vision that Rick was having while he was standing over those two graves.  You know, like, when they showed that vision of the survivors, including Glenn and his child, sitting around a picnic table, laughing and happy (iirc).

Edited October 23, 2017 by tv echo

[KirkB]

39 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

And when Negan said "you have no idea the shit that is about to go down" I thought, surely, Negan has something afoot and once again Rick and his gang will be caught with their pants down.

I thought the same thing. Last season it seems like the only things which surprised Negan were Sasha trying to eat him and Shiva (and to be fair no one really expects a tiger). When Negan swaggered out and started blabbering (some of which I may have missed because I was swearing at Rick and everyone for not shooting him), especially that line, I half expected some of the Saviors to pop up behind them or someone in Rick's group to turn on him, or even Dwight to reveal he had been lying to Daryl this whole time. Instead...nothing.

5 minutes ago, tv echo said:

I hope I'm completely off about this, but I thought the scenes of Old Rick were not a flash forward but an ominous "what might have been" vision that Rick was having while he was standing over those two graves.  You know, like, when they showed that vision of the survivors, including Glenn and his child, sitting around a picnic table, laughing and happy (iirc).

The more I think about it, I am inclined to believe the 'real' time, the current time, is red-eyed Rick standing by the graves. The rest was in his mind, the battle with Negan him remembering how he got to this point and old man Rick dreaming about the future. Probably around the mid season finale we'll snap back to the present and see who he's burying or something.

[ghoulina]

46 minutes ago, tv echo said:

I hope I'm completely off about this, but I thought the scenes of Old Rick were not a flash forward but an ominous "what might have been" vision that Rick was having while he was standing over those two graves.  You know, like, when they showed that vision of the survivors, including Glenn and his child, sitting around a picnic table, laughing and happy (iirc).

I can see that. Maybe the war with the Saviors cost them too much. And he's imaging a quiet life, everyone alive (but of course under Negan's thumb) that would have been if they'd just left it alone. 

[AngelaHunter]

7 hours ago, Pixiebomb said:

 I can just see it now- Rick is waking up with Lori and Shane by his side

Ooh, kind of like the Wizard of Oz, but with lots of gore and zombies. I vote for that.

4 hours ago, smorbie said:

And Kirkman is NEVER going to let go of Negan.  That's his alter ego.

Truer words were never spoken and something I've said all along. In his fantasies, he's not a round little pudding-faced dork wanking to torture porn, but a towering, rugged macho-man who has a harem of women willing to perform any sexual acts at his command, and a bunch of followers who cower in terror and drop to their knees at his presence. In your dreams, Robert.

MILLENIUM said:

Quote

 "I hope you got your shitting pants on.  Because you're gonna shit your pants."  Really?  This is what you produce when you're a highly paid television writer?  

Doesn't surprise me. This is a show where writers think that having a mature, tough, ex-military man saying, "When you were mixing the Bisquick, did you mean to make pancakes?" is oh, so clever and sophisticated. *High fives all around* Cuz I"m pretty sure soldiers always use childish, yet delicate euphemisms. JFC!!!

[Jel]

Negan standing there speechifying for 10 minutes and not being shot caused the show to cross from CGI-invincible-tiger levels of okay silliness, to full on All My Children soap opera levels.  And that, right there, is where I draw the line.

They go there with one goal -- to kill Negan.  But, okay show, I get it, Negan's got to stick around for a while. Okay. So have him on a megaphone or some sort of speaker system pontificating from inside the building. To see him stand there, with 30 rifles trained on him and have no one take a shot was too much.  Why do they need to wait for the herd to kill Negan? The herd's on its way anyway, kill Negan first and then let the herd come for everyone else. It's not like the zombies are going to boycott the place if Negan isn't alive anymore.  Negan should have been physically ungettable.  Still very frustrating, but not eye rolly at least. 

And to rob the audience of the moment where Negan starts yapping and someone just flat out plugs him and forever puts and end to him and his so very annoying speeches is unforgivable!

[RedheadZombie]

8 hours ago, Pixel said:

Ok, I still don't get what the point was of wasting thousands of rounds on shooting out windows. Anyone?

Because they're hoping that the cold and rain will demoralize them?  Seriously, it makes more sense than thinking walkers will climb into windows several stories up.  It was like they were playing a carnival game in which every last piece of the glass had to be broken.

[TV Anonymous]

I know that the have to stretch the 'war' for 16 episodes, but please. The plot of the episode is ridiculous. Is it really their strategy to not kill Negan? Let him alive at all cost until they reach victory? Kill the leader of the enemy, will you and deal with his lieutenants later?

1. They opened fire, Negan and his lieutenants appeared with no firearms. They have proven that they have sharpshooter capability. Why not put one bullet in Negan's head when was delivering his speech?
2. Negan was on the ground. Again, with no firearm. All Rick needed to do was to approach him and finish him of. But then Gabriel stooped him because they needed to go and it was about Rick? Go where, exactly? And why could they not spend extra 5-10 minutes? 
3. In the trailer, Gabriel met Negan. Gabriel had a rifle, Negan only had Lucille (and his speech of course). Why then Gabriel got afraid of him? Shoot him for Jesus Christ's sake, our Lord and Savior!

[Gobi]

Josh McDermitt (Eugene) lampshaded this on Talking Dead just before I turned it off. Asked what his character was thinking, he said "Why don't they just shoot Negan?"

[Rachel RSL]

16 minutes ago, TV Anonymous said:

But then Gabriel stooped him because they needed to go and it was about Rick? Go where, exactly? And why could they not spend extra 5-10 minutes? 

I think they needed to leave because the zombie horde had arrived. Of course, I'm wondering why they needed the zombie horde in the first place when they could have just snuck into the compound (like they did anyway) and used those  explosives to kill Saviors instead of random zombies and RVs. Or they could have just set the entire place on fire. But, you know, letting Negan give another speech...that works too. *eyeroll*

Edited October 23, 2017 by Rachel RSL

[Dobian]

6 hours ago, Iguessnot said:

I didn't understand wasting bullets on a building. I figured the Neganites went down to the lunchroom to chill while our crew spent all their ammo. I think I saw Maggie shooting the building with a handgun and it looked so stupid.

Why didn't Gabriel just tell Gregory to get in the car?

Because logic and common sense have no place on this show, it's about contrived scenes to generate contrived plots, like Gabriel getting stuck in a portable building with Negan.  Ninety percent of what happens on this show should never happen the way it does.  Which goes back to the lazy and nonsensical writing.

[Pondlass1]

3 hours ago, Juliegirlj said:

at this rate they will be lucky to be renewed for one or two more seasons

I don't follow ratings, but I thought the ratings for this show were thru the roof.  Although I have to admit the thrill is slowing fading for me.  It's all the same story over and over.  And nowadays the zombies are swatted away like flies.  There's no real tension or suspense like there was in the beginning.  Zombies present no threat.  It's the loony power hungry people.  Would we really be like this in the event of an apocalypse?  I don't really think so.  

[nodorothyparker]

Holy hell, the speechifying on rewatch (even just running in the background while doing other stuff) is hard to take when you know it's coming.  Maggie and her accent are now joining Negan in characters I simply have no choice but to fast forward through because I just can't anymore.  I do find it mildly interesting that all of Rick's terrible pep talk seems to be reiterating over and over again that the world is theirs "by right."  You know who else likes to tell his followers that everything is theirs for the taking, Rick?   The same guy you devised this latest intricate plan against only to not take a clean shot at.

The taking out of the lookouts and crossing them off the master list was nicely done and I surprisingly kind of enjoyed how methodical the non A-Team team was in scouting and directing the walker herd, although again I can't help but think maybe if Rick and company had put this much effort and reconnaissance into their initial outing to go a murderin' the Saviors they might not be where they are now.

Like everyone else, I'm really struck by the sheer waste of ammunition to not end up killing anyone except a handful of unnamed lookouts.  How much storyline did we have to sit through last season about the effort to replace the arsenal they never thought to hide in the first place and then to even acquire a single bullet? Eugene is where he is now because of that bullet.  I wouldn't be in any hurry to rejoin them either after that to see them finally roll up and then piss away that much ammunition for no obvious result.

[SharonH58]

8 hours ago, Pixiebomb said:

When Rick was waking up in bed and they showed the flowers I thought "oh no- please don't tell me this entire show has been a dream and Rick is just now waking up from his Coma in the hospital."  I can just see it now- Rick is waking up with Lori and Shane by his side- pan out to the hallway where delivery guy Glen is delivering flowers. Paramedics T- Dog an Jackie talking to cop Daryl- who is guarding his prisoner Meryl while Dr Andrea is treating him.  Candy Striper Amy is playing with Sophia while her dad Ed wheels pregnant Carol into ER. And Dale is on the TV running for Mayor of a town called Woodbury. And Morgan is eating cheese. 

I actually like that better than what we are getting

[Quilty]

17 hours ago, Pixiebomb said:

So are we supposed to call Father PeePants - Father Poopy Pants now?  Seems like that's what Negan's going for.  I wonder if the Show knows we call him Father PP and they are giving us a nod?  

I thought the same thing.LOL!

[jackjill89]

Maggie has got to have some elephant DNA because this is the longest fucking pregnancy ever! Now, I know that in zombie time, it hasn't been that long, but for goodness sakes when you think about how long it would take for her to figure out she was pregnant (I can't imagine women are too regular in the apocalypse), Glenn is lost, Glenn is found, Glenn dies, she's at Hilltop, etc. she would be at the very least pushing the envelope for jeans and a tucked in shirt. The ultrasound she had last season showed a baby shape -- not a bean, a baby, so she has to be pushing 4-5 months. You are at least thickening at the waist. I don't know why this drives me crazy, but it does.

Also... FPP... just when I think how much I've come to like your character you 1) save Gregory and 2) don't shoot the monologuer on sight. Ugh.

Overall, I like this episode. Except for my obsession over Maggie not showing, I tend to just enjoy the ride and not let the details drive me crazy.

[iMonrey]

Quote

They go there with one goal -- to kill Negan. 

To be fair - I don't think they had just one goal. I doubt very much everyone on Rick's side thinks just killing Negan would put an end to the war. That said, I'm not 100% just what the goal was - a show of strength? A ruse to lure them out and then unleash the zombie hoard on them? Was there any genuine hope the Saviors would turn Negan over to them? Not sure.

Trying to be optimistic - or maybe just generous - but this episode could be a sign that Gimple, Kirkman, et. al. are aware of the backlash against Season 7, and certainly of the ratings drop. It definitely looked like the tables turned in favor of ASZ, Hilltop and Kingdom. And it was certainly action-packed and all the characters were involved, to some extent. Is it possible they're listening to the fans?

[deemac]

There was just soooo much hoopla over this 100th episode.  I have my dvr set to record TWD and I got multiple recordings of previews, reminiscences etc leading up to it I was expecting something really spectacular.  Pfft.  Not even that good as just a regular season opener.  Not likely to inspire people to watch the rest of the season.

 

And....I often enjoy the Talking Dead more these days......and use it to filter whether I want to actually watch the episode since Negan appeared.  What was with all those crazy people and the nonstop hysterical cheering?  The episode sucked, they went crazy for the Junkyard Queen and for Negan.  I just don't understand.

[RedheadZombie]

8 hours ago, JackONeill said:

Someone ought to set up a Twitter or Facebook account (not me. I'm old and don;t understand that tech stuff). Call it Days To When Negan Dies.

I don't know if this is true, but I heard that when out troops went to Iraq and Afghanistan, they were given flip cards with photos of all the baddies in the area.

Evidentally, despite other wonderful plans that Team Rick came up with, they didn't think to do this. So FPP didn't know what to do with Gregory. (Rick should have kept that camera he had. Then, he could have done a set of flip cards for everyone! And Negan has such en ego he would probably pose.)

I believe it was playing cards, and it was a very clever idea.  Rick's ideas - not so clever.

7 hours ago, xaxat said:

Did we lose an original character last night? Was that Hershel's Dale's RV they blew up to breach the gates?

I don't know it it's the OG RV, but it was a perfectly working one.  Now what do they ride on in the next pregnancy emergency?

[SharonH58]

I like Dwight, he did good on his part of the plan.  Of course dick, Daryl put this arrow in a bike tire.  I too have no clue on firing high into the building breaking windows.  Tara I don't like.  Did she think zombie can stick to a time table?  I liked stealthy Daryl.  The muslin guy made no sense so either he will "save the day"  or "screw everyone over".  Standard WD writing.

[DEL901]

I'm with everyone on the stupidity of wasting all that ammo.  Also, I'm wondering where they found these guns that never seem to have to be reloaded?  Maybe TWD Jesus did a zombieappocolypse version of loaves and fishes?

[RedheadZombie]

7 hours ago, smorbie said:

She confused me.  How long have they been planning?  Maggie's still not showing, but Judith has aged a year.

One of the biggest problems with this show is lack of time jumps.  The only one I can recall was between seasons two and three, and that was to accelerate Lori's pregnancy.  So here we have Carl, who's maybe 11 now in show time, but the actor's about to graduate high school.  And Daryl looks like he's aged about twenty years now.  He went from a baby-faced sandy blond, to a bloated-faced, freshly dyed, chocolate brown brunette.

6 hours ago, Irishmaple said:

I enjoyed the bulk of the show. I know Negan is wearing layers of Plot Armour and, apparently, has to go on and on and on, so I’ve decided I can live with it. I do my best to tune him out and use his monologues for posting over on the live chat. The show now needs to do its part by keeping Negan out of the line of fire. If he’s not supposed to die for a while (a short while, I hope) then have him make his speeches from cover and show that Fr Gabriel has lost his gun. Stop making it easy to kill him and then fail. It doesn’t look good on anybody.

Same with Michonne and Rosita. Those women are badass. If they’re sitting out a fight, then both of them need to look like a truck just ran over them. 

I was initially confused by all the ammo wasted on the building but I’m starting to think it makes sense if Rick is looking at a war of attrition. As soon as the attack happened, Negan or one of his Lts called for a lockdown. Everyone is inside now. That’s great for them but not so much for Rick, if he had to besiege the compound. He doesn’t because the walkers are doing for him. The people in lockdown cannot leave now and the walkers aren’t going anywhere because they can hear and smell the people inside. They’re going to be motivated to get in and the Saviours inside are going to start freaking out. Rick can stay back, keep a few people on watch and wait while the walkers and the trapped Saviours solve his problem for him.

I like seeing people like Tara and Fr. Gabriel level up, but Tara would never have gone back for Gregory and I wish Fr. Gabriel hadn’t. I love that he hesitated, though. Seth Gilliam was great there. He really didn’t want to go, but went anyway. It was boneheaded, but he doesn’t deserve to get stuck with Negan for it.

Carol and King Ezekiel better be okay. Rick needs to talk to Carl about adopting strays. Looks like Judith will be needing a new babysitter though.

I think you are way smarter than the writers of this show.  It just doesn't make sense to me that they destroyed multiple functioning vehicles, used up a huge amount of explosives and ammunition, just to expose them to walkers.  These aren't Alexandrians or other naïve people, they know how to fight walkers.  They are in a brick building that cannot be caved in by dead bodies.  The first floor of windows can easily be barricaded, and the rest of the windows they blew up can't be accessed by walkers.  

So all of these valuable, and non-renewable resources are wasted, and Negan and his top lieutenants are still alive and kicking.  And if they remain silent within the building, the walkers will be distracted away by any type of noise.  We've seen it happen.  Negan gets a Savior with a great arm, and they lob off a few grenades in different directions.  The mindless walkers shamble off to check it out.  They reinforce fences and steadily kill off the walkers and problem solved.  And Negan's still alive and thriving.

[GodsBeloved]

20 hours ago, AimingforYoko said:

Michonne was busy in Wakanda.

Yes!!! Michonne was with the real deal LOL

[phoenix780]

That was pretty boring for how many explosions and whatnot there were. But, I'm choosing to ignore time jumping until it's clarified, and maybe that's where the entertainment is. This is a Sunday night show, I don't wanna try that hard. 

[raven]

I have to hand wave the ammo/vehicles thing because lack of is only a problem when the show wants it to be, otherwise they are pretty much renewable.

Rick wanted to hit Negan at his home base, kill him and make said base unlivable.  Explosions at the base wouldn't work because the building is too strong (big, concrete).  Taking out the windows exposes it to the elements and makes it harder to defend; blowing up the RV took out the gate and the 2nd team opened the back door and let in the herd.  The last overhead shot of the herd in Negan's compound showed it was pretty big.  Anyone not killed will just leave.  Dwight may have provided some intel about where the best places to shoot were.

I liked that we jumped right into the plan and I liked the execution.  It seems like we're stuck with Negan; it's possible he will try to use Fr Gabriel as some sort of hostage once he can assess the situation and see if he has any people remaining.  He caught Gabriel off guard so I'm not surprised Gabriel didn't use his gun.

I THINK the show was trying to go with Rick not being able to get a clear shot? while waiting for the herd? which is why he didn't shoot Negan.  I mean, other than plot armor.  Just a simple tweak of Negan standing behind something would have helped, but he has to be so badass (sarcasm) standing in the open. 

Since it's about all out war, more is coming with this plan.  This was destabilization and hit the home base, hopefully taking out the general.

35 minutes ago, phoenix780 said:

But, I'm choosing to ignore time jumping until it's clarified,

Yeah, I'm not going to worry about it too much.  That version of Another One Rides the Bus was extremely annoying though!

[SimoneS]

Also, by attacking the main Savior compound, Rick can buy time to attack the other Savior outposts as well as their allies and get their weapons (I presume that is the plan). By the time the Saviors in the main compound get out, their numbers should be significantly reduced with limited back up and few places to hide. It is a good start to taking down the Saviors who have the superior numbers. The huge misstep was giving Rick the opportunity to take out Negan and his lead followers and not having him take it.

Edited October 24, 2017 by SimoneS

[tennisgurl]

22 hours ago, minamurray78 said:

"IN MEMORY OF GEORGE ROMERO"

Yeah, that hit me in the feels. 

I almost wonder if, as some people have mentioned, the Old Rick vision is more of a fantasy, or its the possible life that Rick might have had flashing before his eyes before death. An Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge for the ZA. Or at least, he think he will die, because I dont think they'll actually kill off Rick, at least not yet. But the whole vision was so weird (Rick is a million years old whole Carl and Michonne are the same age? The dream like quality?) that it makes me think it was a dream, and not a flashback. 

[AngelaHunter]

I have to stop thinking about this. All the carefully set up  and timed explosions and walker parade, all the stealthy murders of saviors, the armoured cars etc etc all building up to the arrival of Our Gang Triumphant at the Sanctuary to kill Negan. Rick is ruthless! There's Negan and his head guys, ripe for the killing and what does Rick do? Says he's going to count to ten and THEN... but, that sly fox, that devious devil, he only counts to seven before slaying Negan... oh, I mean, before shooting out some windows. "Take that, Negan! See how you like it when all the flies get in!" So Rick nearly died fighting Winslow (because he couldn't find anything to use as a weapon in a junkyard and needed Michonne yelling through a pipe to coach him) and brutalizes the ocean colony to get  ammo and guns and then blows his wad in 10 seconds for nothing, Zero. Nada. Makes sense, I guess. I need aversion therapy so I can stop watching this pap. Maybe if I put the Cheesemaker/Karate Kid ep on a loop and force myself to watch it over and over it might work.

Edited October 24, 2017 by AngelaHunter

[nodorothyparker]

Reminder that all episode and pre-air threads are comic spoiler-free zones.  Posts that reference or spoil storylines from the comics belong in threads marked specifically for that and will be removed from here.  

[Mick Lady]

I never post here, I hang out at Supernatural, but the snark here? Classic! You guys have me bursting out in laughter! I'm so happy to see I'm not the only one driven nuts by Negan, my husband loves him!

Who ever posted that the perfect torture was being locked up with Negan, is a true sadist! Ya make Marquis de Sade look like Monty Python's "Spanish Inquisition!"

Edited October 24, 2017 by Mick Lady

[ShadowHunter]

5 hours ago, festivus said:

I'll take Tara until the bitter end of this show if it meant that Maggie would go. I'm so sick of that accent and I do not see a leader at all when I look at her. Glenn would have been a good leader. I'll forever hate this show for killing Glenn instead of her. I don't think Lauren Cohen is a very good actress, but I never had a problem with her in other shows I watched. I just think they made a huge mistake in killing a good actor and keeping one that's not and that I don't think can carry this storyline. 

I feel the same way. I said as well that I don't buy her as a leader. 

At work we talked about the episode and it was mentioned Lauren is not the strongest actress. 

When we saw Rick standing over the two graves I was hoping that was the future and Maggie was in one of them.

I understand why the Hilltop picked her over Gregory but still cant believe others following her.

[SimoneS]

23 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Dear Lord, stuck between Negan and a zombie horde. Talk about a fate worse than death! *Negan speechifying for 20 minuets about piss and dicks* “hello zombies!” *throws self into horde*

First off, if I was stuck in that trailer with him, I would kill Negan without a second thought, but if somehow that didn't happen, I would have to seriously contemplate opening that door and killing myself just as the walkers started entering. It would be sacrifice for the greater good of not just Team Rick, but for all that is good in humanity.

Edited October 24, 2017 by SimoneS

[mxc90]

Last season,  there was a scene of Michonne practicing her rifle skills (hoping to one day get a shot at Negan) and this episode would have been a good time for her to pick him off or one of his lieutenants but for some reason she had to stay behind.

If Negan's group is so huge, why was there "one" guard at every post? 

In the beginning, Rick was standing over a grave. I wonder if that was a flash forward.

From the one of the opening scenes, we see Morgan take out a guard from Paze Industrial Research and finish him with a half a$$ poke with his stick. In the end, we see Carol and others invade the same place and the dead guard is not on the ground where Morgan killed him. Where did the body go? Did Morgan give him a proper burial? These time jumps are confusing!

Gabriel is carrying an automatic rifle, trapped in a small space with Negan (maybe with or without Lucille) and Gabriel should be the one wearing his shitting pants???  Negan must be the luckiest person on TV today!

[Pondlass1]

Off topic : anyone ever watched the Brit Zombie series Dead Set... Zombies meet Big Brother.  The zombies don't stumble along.. They run.. And fast! It's on Netflix 

[mxc90]

14 hours ago, Pixel said:

Ok, I still don't get what the point was of wasting thousands of rounds on shooting out windows. Anyone?

When Eugene jumps back on Rick's bandwagon, he will have a job ready for him to make more bullets.

[Glaze Crazy]

This show. I do so love this show that demands this viewer just suspend belief, beyond the actual idea that dead human bodies that Negan is having trouble keeping "together" enough to defend his fence perimeter have contemporaries still out there, walking around intact. In hordes. This also helps me try and work out the reason no one just put a bullet or 10 right between Negan's eyes while he was standing there, talking and weaving his hips around.  I can assume that Rick, who this war isn't about according to Father Gabriel's comment, wants to kill Negan in hand-to-hand combat, like with the Terminus guy Rick hacked up, instead of taking the easy and obvious shot(s) with an automatic weapon. Until Rick actually decides that now he does want to take those shots. Cause it is all about Rick's rage after all. No seriously, I love this show and I'm glad it's back. This season opener is much less dire that that bloodbath first episode in season 7.

 

12 hours ago, scrb said:

 

This is the same shit Lost always did, give you little bits of the actual present-day story and then pad it up with flashbacks, killing the momentum.  Those flashbacks were automatic cock-blocks.

 

11 hours ago, iMonrey said:

The irony here is that I first really got into this show because it had a bullshit-free, linear approach to storytelling that was straightforward and easy to follow. I'm so over these shows that have to jump around in different time frames just to seem deep and clever. This isn't Westworld (a show I loathed, by the way, for that very reason.)

So yeah - I did not care for all the jumping around and had a hard time figuring out what the time frames were. We left off last season with Negan rallying his people to war. Did they spend the next few months just sitting around thinking about it? Because it seemed like they were gearing up to go back and fight right then and there. How on earth did Rick and his people manage to do all that recon and planning and prep work and how much time has passed and why haven't the Saviors been doing anything while Rick's crew has been doing all this shit?

I'm also worried that the battle we just saw was a jump forward and the rest of the season will go back and build up to that and show us how what led up to it. Ugh - I hate that idea.

 

I'm also thinking there are at least 3 different timelines going on here. But unless the whole speechifying of the 3 communities' leaders at the beginning of the battle we saw tonight was actually a fake-out/lead in to a different earlier confrontation (that we haven't seen yet), Maggie's comment about fighting until her 2nd trimester puts that group speech scene (at least) pretty much just after the battle for Alexandria at the end of last season. Unless she's on her second pregnancy and it's another fake out on the timeline. So I'm thinking the sweaty, shaking, red-eyed Rick talking about "Mercy" is where the mid-season story arc will be, with the falllout/result of this initial challenge to the Saviors at the Sanctuary. If the groups already had the sheet metal panels in stock, getting them attached to vehicles was probably not a huge time consuming activity.  Maybe a couple days. But the fact that Negan and his crew seemed sort of nonchalant about Rick and crew showing up at the Sanctuary without any warning makes it kind of suspicious AFA where exactly we are in this timeline mix. If we are just a couple days or a week past the Alexandria battle I would expect Negan's crew to be a little more fortified at least, like iMonrey says. Or more suspension of belief is required. As usual. I am looking forward to this season's peeling off of the onion skins to make sense of what this episode was trying to set up.

(OT: **whispers** I liked Westworld though.)

Edited October 24, 2017 by Glaze Crazy
Fix words.

[CletusMusashi]

15 hours ago, Lady Iris said:

Can anybody tell me how after all this time there is still any gasoline or oil to keep vehicles running is still around? It irks me way more than it should but I have trouble suspending my belief for this particular point.

Because it takes place in the Kirkmanverse. Laws of physics, chemistry, biology, you name it, are all based on Kirkman's understanding of them. And, while he is a basically functional person, he has invested most of his brain cells into consistantly putting out a (halfway) decent comic, I do not believe that a man who wants to compose The Never-Ending Zombie Story without even caring why people are turning into zombies seriously believes that it matters whether or not you use old gasoline.

[Bryce Lynch]

On 10/22/2017 at 10:12 PM, Straycat80 said:

I thought this was a good episode up until the group went to Negan's compound, everyone had a clear shot at Negan and didn't do it. And when Father PP stopped to save Gregory, gah! 

They couldn't kill Neagan.  They needed that ammo to break windows.

[Haleth]

Did the reason why Rick didn't shoot Negan come up at all during Talking Dead?  I would expect that would be the first question.  Rick says to Negan, "I told you twice.  I'm gonna kill you."  Then he doesn't.  Even though it's the perfect opportunity.  Makes zero sense.

I also don't get why "Old Man" Rick has aged more than everyone else in that scene.  Based on Judith's appearance it's not even 5 years in the future.  The editing was careful to not show Carl, but Michonne didn't look any different.  It has to be more than the burden of leadership that turned Rick into a gray bearded, hobbling older man.

[Johnny Dollar]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They all had clear shots to take out Negan and his top lieutenants and end this nightmare for all peaceful people once and for all, and decided to waste hundreds, if not thousands, of bullets and shoot out all of the windows instead. But do you know how hard it will be for the Saviors to find a good glazier in the ZA?

[Catronia]

14 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

I do find it mildly interesting that all of Rick's terrible pep talk seems to be reiterating over and over again that the world is theirs "by right."  You know who else likes to tell his followers that everything is theirs for the taking, Rick?   The same guy you devised this latest intricate plan against only to not take a clean shot at.

I felt that too -- I kept asking (in my head because I'm only a little insane), by exactly what right, Rick?

That aside, I really liked this episode! I loved King Ezekiel's Henry V reference and I thought it echoed a bit when Rick was wandering among the assembled troops ... "a little touch of Harry in the night." (And yes, I always get a little 12-year-old giggle about that.)

I have to admit, I pretty much ignore the weird time shifting stuff and just watch the show as is. And it was pretty awesome watched that way -- LOVED the Dwight to Darryl intelligence system, loved seeing them all taking out the guards, and leading the zombies, loved the Plan in general. I was happy to see Carol and Darryl in action, and Morgan being less of an ass. I love Father Pee-Pants now, who has come maybe the longest way in his journey, and understand why he felt the need to help the sniveling coward.

Overall, I thought it was pretty awesome and a great comeback from last season.

[nodorothyparker]

That's what I've come to realize too.  For all my general quibbles, I'm fairly content with an episode that has all the band working together toward the same end with no solo journeys to crazy town or sadsville.  I know those will come because it's this show, but it was nice for once to see all the characters we care about mostly firing on all cylinders even if Gabriel or someone has to step in every once in awhile to be the Crazy Rick whisperer.   Grimly efficient Morgan is the Morgan I've been wanting to see for two seasons.

[JasonCC]

Rick is already pretty damn gray and shaggy, and I've seen too many real life hipsters in their 30s grow that beard. I don't think his aging and Judith's was out of synch in the flash-forward. It's 5-6 years hence (unless it's just a bullshit vision of course).

 

Last season they didn't show enough (just told) how Maggie (with Jesus' help) became leader of Hilltop for the support of her to ring true.

[AngelaHunter]

1 hour ago, nodorothyparker said:

Grimly efficient Morgan is the Morgan I've been wanting to see for two seasons.

Yeah, that was good. What's not good is spending all that time since he appeared in Alexandria telling and showing us that he thinks all life is sacred and refusing to kill, even to protect the very people feeding and housing him. It was all pointless with no impact, especially the (what seemed like) five hour episode where he becomes Zen with a goat and talky cheesemaker. All that time  was wasted, meaningless, because suddenly he's "Oh, wait - I guess all life isn't precious, well, unless I say it is or until I find someone I want to kill. Then it's not precious. Or something like that. Forget all that "try to love one another right now" BS I prattled on about."

I love horror movies/shows and never have any trouble with suspension of belief. Willingness to accept impossible things is necessary to enjoy that genre because we know there are no vampires, zombies or werewolves.  It's abject stupidity that irks me. It's insulting. And boring. Negan isn't a mythical creature, a god or a demon. He's a brutal, dangerous, sadistic, meglomaniacal murdering asshole with no redeeming qualities. Rick watched him beat two of his friends to death and watched while he prepared to bash Carl's head in (which he was seconds away from doing and would have done if not for Shiva the Magic Tiger) and what does he do? Rick is the guy who ripped out the throat of another man who was going to harm Carl, but now? He chitchats with Negan and then shoots out some windows. On what planet would that make any sense at all? To me this is stupid, dumb writing that made my eyes roll so severely I nearly could see out of the back of my head. I've read fanfiction written by amateurs who are a million times better than these so-called writers. 

[Yolapukka]

I can see Maggie as a peacetime leader, someone who gets things done, manages logistics, has a quiet word with people, etc. I don't see her as anything more than a soldier when it comes down to a fight and when it comes to delivering "inspiring" words, neither the actress nor the character has the charisma to pull it off and I am bored by the stream of platitudes that the writers put in her mouth. Lauren is an enjoyable actress when she has someone like Scot Wilson or Stephen Yeun to play off of but her she does not stand on her own feet very well. Without a strong and giving scene-partner she's barely adequate and seems a little lost when she's supposed to carry a scene. As for her fucking pouf-less eternal pregnancy, the writers can just fuck off with how short the fucking timeline has been in the past several seasons. It looks ridiculous, not just because of the Carl factor, but also everyone, with a couple of exceptions have noticeably aged, in some cases drastically.

The episode would have been a lot better if Rick had taken a successful shot at Negan and seriously wounded the fucker, instead of more of the same-old same-old. If they want the character to seem scary, being cornered and pissed off for an actual reason rather than just because he's a chortling bully would at least potentially work, unlike what they are doing now. Plus, this show is so big on using heavy-handed symbolism, wounding Negan would certainly underline what they were doing with the attack on his compound.

Enough with the flashbacks, flash-forwards and dream sequences, if they are going to utilize them, it needs to add something to the narrative rather than muddying it. I often appreciate it when something like that is confined to an opening sequence and sense is made of it by the end, but what we saw was all over the place and undercut the momentum without adding anything more than filler to the episode.

Edited October 24, 2017 by yuggapukka

[Boofish]

I'm going to read thru all the comments while I eat my delicious lunch (sarcasm; on a strict diet) so I'm not sure if I'm in the minority or not. I'm putting this episode on my favorites list (just a few others for reference - Seed, Beside the Dying Fire, No Sanctuary and controversial pick - The Day Will Come When You Wont Be [Season 7 premiere]). I love the set up. I love them marching over there and finally telling Negan they are not the 1 the 2 or the 3! Glad they let him live. Same thing he does to other communities. Terrorize the leader so the others will fall in line. I get they all had a clear shot and could have taken him out right then and there but first you need to choke on some humble pie. I also think Gavin wanted to take the deal and I'm crushing hard on Regina!!

I wonder what his minions will do when they realize their days of bullying and killing at will with no resistance is finally over. I have a feeling it's the only way they know how to win. They may be organized as far as their living situation is concerned but they aren't used to do any of the actual work it takes to get to that point.