S02.E06: The Trolley Problem

[tennisgurl]

Oh snap, Chidi said fork! Now you know its serious! 

Another great episode, I love this show and its combination of moral philosophy and wacky humor. I mean, a Trolley Problem with five Shakespeare's and a Santa Clause? Its like my junior year of college made manifest! It really is interesting to see these moral problems played out like this. Like Chidi discovered, its easy to discuss philosophy, but its another to actually make a moral choice that saves or destroys lives. Thats Chidis whole problem after all. He is a good guy, but he refuses to make any choice to actually help anyone, and his lack of decision making has actually hurt the people around him. Him actually making choices (as nasty and funny as they are) is a pretty big deal for him. 

Although, considering Chidi hears everything in French (being from a former French colony) he might have been doomed to the Bad Place anyway! Damn, I am somewhat convinced that no one is actually in the Good Place, if the rules are so arbitrary that you can get sent to the Bad Place for simply country of birth. When the gang gets there, it will probably be like one guy, or the whole place will be empty except for the angels hanging around. I increasingly think this whole show is a deconstruction of the very idea of a Heaven and Hell and an eternal judgement on peoples failures and triumphs in life. The things that are good and bad are so pointless and filled with levels of moral grayness and past actions and flaws that can be one day dealt with, how can that even work? These rules of who gets in and who doesn't are so stupid, they make you wonder if most of the things people really consider Hell worthy are any less silly? 

Although, obviously, really bad things like genocide and Vicky's singing are deserving of Hell. 

[CherithCutestory]

Quote

Eleanor and Michael are the true soulmates here! They totally get ecah other, deep deep down in shrimp dispensing ways. 

I loved them together last season (when Michael was "good") but they are just so much better now. It reminds me of when Trevor told her that she'd be happier in the Bad Place because even though she will be miserable and they will torture her she would feel like she belonged.

Quote

Your post makes me wonder if the entire thing was designed to lead to growth in Chidi.  Disguised as torture.  So, like this isn't the Good Place or the Bad Place, but Purgatory.  If not intentional, it is an interesting effect anyway.  Forcing Chidi to choose is probably exactly what he needed.  

I know it's likely unintentional but I definitely agree. Michael was technically in the wrong but Chidi being forced to confront the actual implications of thought experiments he has trotted out for years is ultimately a good thing.

I still think it's possible this is more purgatory than hell. And Michael is too low in the command chain to really know that. (In Catholic tradition purgatory involves torture too. So, having a middle manager torture people without knowing the end game isn't insane.)

Edited October 20, 2017 by CherithCutestory

[Michichick]

3 hours ago, biakbiak said:

Paired with Strangers Under The Train!

White chocolate is sweetened lard and even on its own is proof that we are all in The Bad Place. 

The little smile Michael got when Chidi said he just knew more than him was fabulous.

 

Completely agree about Michael's little smile. It was brief, but telling. 

Edited October 20, 2017 by Michichick
Removed redundant comment about white chocolate ingredients

[Mabinogia]

32 minutes ago, JessDVD said:

The philosophy rap musical! I about fell over.

I really wanted to see the philosophy rap musical. I thought the song Chidi sang was promising.

Seeing the trolley dilemma played out over and over shouldn't have been funny, but it was hilarious! Poor Chidi. I think that really was his worst nightmare. I would have stayed on the track I was on and followed fate. And no way in HELL is it better to kill a healthy person to save 5 dying people. That's murder. All this moral philosophy stuff is pretty interesting though.

Jealous Janet! She really is almost my favorite character. It's so hard. I actually love them all so much. Eleanor saying she was his sexiest friend, no that's Tahani, nicest...nope, Jason. And I loved her realizing that she and Michael are very similar. I just love everything about this show. Especially how they are hitting all the same storylines, in a way, but totally different. Eleanor was the problem threatening to destroy the town, now it's Janet. Jason ended up with Janet, now it's Tahani. It isn't easy to pull off a groundhog day type story and have it stay fresh and interesting but they are succeeding wonderfully in my book.

[Michichick]

My DVR cut off right before the end, when Janet was explaining to Michael that she was glitching and putting everyone in danger. Did she end her statement by telling him to kill her, or was it something else?

[cpcathy]

I watched it live, and was also recording, so I also missed what Janet said, as the "recording ending" message was on my screen!

[Bruinsfan]

10 hours ago, Anisky said:

What I think are causing the glitches for Janet is that she's not supposed to be able to lie, but she's lying without even realizing she's doing it.

This was also my takeaway.

[DrScottie]

14 minutes ago, Michichick said:

My DVR cut off right before the end, when Janet was explaining to Michael that she was glitching and putting everyone in danger. Did she end her statement by telling him to kill her, or was it something else?

 

2 minutes ago, cpcathy said:

I watched it live, and was also recording, so I also missed what Janet said, as the "recording ending" message was on my screen!

**earthquake rumbles as Janet tells Jason and Tahani she's happy for the both of them**

Janet: "Bye!"

**pops up in Michael's office**

Janet: "Hi there!" 

Michael: "What's happening? What's wrong?"

Janet: "I am wrong. I can't stop glitching. I don't know why and it's getting worse. I fear this neighborhood is in danger of total collapse. So that's the main thing. How are you?"

**End scene**

[Winston Wolfe]

15 hours ago, Linny said:

I was so proud of Chidi standing up to Michael and demanding an apology. That shows real growth on his part, that he's not willing be made a fool or be mistreated, that he's confident in his abilities and commands respect.

Has anyone else noticed that, Trolley dilemma aside, Chidi has become much more decisive than before?  He instantly rejected Michael's first (faux) apology, didn't accept the Emmanuel Kant manuscript and told Mikey to get the fork out of his home - all without any deliberation.  Old-school Chidi would have never been so decisive.  Count me among the people that believe Janet is the key to this season.

[sacrebleu]

I'm still trying to wrap my brain around Chidi killing 5 Shakespeare's for one Santa.  I would think he'd be opposed to Santa as a mechanism for bribing children to be good-- rather than arrive at the decision to be good on their own.

 

Besides that, another great show-- I'm interested to see where Janet's glitching goes-- but does it help Team Cockroach keep up the ruse that they're being tortured? or hurt-- because fake Eleanor didn't come up with the earthquake. 

[DrScottie]

2 minutes ago, Winston Wolfe said:

Has anyone else noticed that, Trolley dilemma aside, Chidi has become much more decisive than before?  He instantly rejected Michael's first (faux) apology, didn't accept the Emmanuel Kant manuscript and told Mikey to get the fork out of his home - all without any deliberation.  Old-school Chidi would have never been so decisive.  Count me among the people that believe Janet is the key to this season.

You are absolutely right. I and others here have noted the assertiveness Chidi didn't show before. This torture is likely going to prove better for him in the long run. 

Oh Janet...Her lying about being happy for Jason and Tahani is destroying the neighborhood. 

Says she's happy to help with couples therapy. Her thumb flies off.

Says she's happy for the two of them while they are kissing on the couch: Coughs up a frog.

Says she's happy that she helped them grow their relationship: Causes an earthquake. 

[Loandbehold]

I laughed throughout that entire episode. Especially Chidi's Dilemma(s). All that blood and gore, and practically none of it got onto Eleanor or Michael. Shrimp dispensary! Michael's drawing! Kant's surprisingly erotic doodles(?)! Glitching therapist Janet! Chidi saying "forked'! I loved it all.

As for Michael's apologies, it was interesting that his "real" apology used the exact same language as his sarcastic version. That makes me suspicious that he's not being sincere.

I remain in awe of just how well all the actors play off each other. There's no pairing that doesn't work.

[CletusMusashi]

16 hours ago, Fukui San said:

Prisoner's Dilemma. Pascal's Wager. Schrodinger's Cat. Plato's Cave. Let's face it, a lot of philosophical thought experiments can double as torture scenarios.

Most of them are torture just to listen to.

[Anisky]

45 minutes ago, Winston Wolfe said:

Has anyone else noticed that, Trolley dilemma aside, Chidi has become much more decisive than before?  He instantly rejected Michael's first (faux) apology, didn't accept the Emmanuel Kant manuscript and told Mikey to get the fork out of his home - all without any deliberation.  Old-school Chidi would have never been so decisive.  Count me among the people that believe Janet is the key to this season.

As someone who actually relates a lot to Chidi (and has a lot in common with him), it felt to me like Chidi was in "professor mode". Despite his inability to make even every day decisions like what soup to get or what bar to get beers at, Chidi was able to function successfully as a professor, so presumably he was able to write a syllabus, write lectures, handle students, grade assignments, etc. It was a role he filled for long enough that he is comfortable within it.

Before, he'd lost that routine; but now, he has an actual class, with 4 pupils, that he's running more like a regular class (when Michael doesn't mix things up, anyway). Being in the mindset that he is the Professor and Michael is his student would make it much easier to be firm with Michael, and even act like he has authority over Michael. 

Edited October 20, 2017 by Anisky

[Blakeston]

Jason seems to have progressed incredibly far in a short period of time, in terms of becoming a better person.

Throughout the first season, despite his upbeat puppy-like personality, he was an incredibly selfish, amoral person. I can't think of anything he did last season that wasn't self-centered, except for maybe complimenting Janet at some point.

Now he seems truly concerned with Tahani's happiness. It's a huge turnaround for him.

[Omeletsmom]

13 hours ago, piewarmer said:

I'd like mine without the mystery flavor, though.

it would be cool to have one where the mystery flavor changes every day.

[Mockingbird]

Also, add me to the list of people (everyone? It’s everyone, right?) who love how ridiculously well Ted Danson and Kristen Bell play off each other. I had to rewind the moment when Eleanor told Michael that he was pulling an Eleanor and he shot back “Posting my cousin’s credit card number on Reddit because she said I looked tired?” because their following laughter had me in stitches. 

[Cowgirl]

15 hours ago, DrScottie said:

I half expected her to cough up a cactus instead of a frog. 

That would have been an awesome call-back to last season!!

I love how they addressed what I was yelling at the t.v. about why can't you just yell at the people or person to get out of the way? Chidi's bebooted friend (Henry?) was trapped in the tracks by his own bad fashion choice.  And, while I'm not usually a fan of t.v. or movie gore, I laughed out loud, HARD at Chidi catching the boot when the trolley creamed Henry.  Yep, I'm going to the Bad Place with the rest of you laughers, and my handbasket is already decorated to look like a trolley adorned with shrimp and red boots. 

I love that Jason is made happy by a pleasure as simple as a balloon.  That would probably render him to be the one most able to achieve true happiness. (Plus, ignorance is bliss!)  Yes, he might (or might not) be simple minded, but doesn't need complicated things to be happy.

Edited October 20, 2017 by Cowgirl

[iMonrey]

Quote

Damn, I am somewhat convinced that no one is actually in the Good Place, if the rules are so arbitrary that you can get sent to the Bad Place for simply country of birth. When the gang gets there, it will probably be like one guy, or the whole place will be empty except for the angels hanging around. I increasingly think this whole show is a deconstruction of the very idea of a Heaven and Hell and an eternal judgement on peoples failures and triumphs in life. The things that are good and bad are so pointless and filled with levels of moral grayness and past actions and flaws that can be one day dealt with, how can that even work? These rules of who gets in and who doesn't are so stupid, they make you wonder if most of the things people really consider Hell worthy are any less silly? 

You beat me to the punch. The show made a point of telling us on Day 1 that very few people actually make it to The Good Place - people winding up in The Bad Place by sheer virtue of being French, for example, seems like an obvious way to parody the whole concept of Heaven and Hell. Especially if one substitutes nationality for religion or even denomination. If every religion and denomination thinks everyone else but them is going to Hell, then most people on earth are going to Hell. And I definitely think that plays into the premise on this show.

That said, I'm not sure how long the show can maintain the premise. There's an underlying shocking reality that these people are dead. They're not going to be restored to life - they're just going to wind up spending an eternity somewhere else. That's an extremely sobering thought, even for a comedy show trying to make light of the concept. 

[Anela]

7 hours ago, BusyOctober said:

I laughed out loud and choked on my tea when Michael revealed his "solution" for the Trolley Problem...his drawing of a rider wielding a long pole with a sharp blade to decapitate the 1 worker while still allowing the trolley to mow down the 5 workers in order to "kill all 6 of the people" was truly evil genius. All the other trolley scenes were good too, but that drawing & Michael's dead pan delivery explaining it will be making me chuckle for a few days.  See the rest of you in the Bad Place, I guess.

I choked on something, too. When Michael put Chidi in front of that little girl, and she she said something about her dad needing a heart transplant - he got hit by a trolley. I figured he was torturing Chidi again. "Oh, come ON!" 

i liked Tahani's realizing she was talking for Jason, as she was speaking for him. I do that, too, at times. I liked that she left them alone for a while. I also liked Jason pointing out that he's nice to her, but she's mean to him. I like it when people actually talk. 

Jealous Janet was funny. 

[Amarsir]

5 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

I really wanted to see the philosophy rap musical. I thought the song Chidi sang was promising.

If you like nerdy rap battles, I don't have one for philosophy but can offer up economics: 

[Dowel Jones]

So, what happens if you're on the Ethics Express and you have a choice between, say, running over the members of The Red Hot Chili Peppers on one track, or switching over and running down one Frenchman?  Do you still go to the Bad Place?

[DrScottie]

So I looked at the flavors using my DVR capture:

Mountain Blast, Old American Circus Funky Mustard (it's a real Pringles flavor), Sriracha Sunrise, Garlic, Mystery Flavor (White Chocolate this time), Cool Ranch, Cajun, Margarita (Mix?)  

That last one is tough to make out as it's small reddish text against avocado green, but there is a red-headed girl carrying a margarita glass with shrimp in it and some tiny text on it. 

 

Janet's issues reminded me of a character in the Zelda 2 NES game. I am error.

Edited October 20, 2017 by DrScottie

[Terrafamilia]

Now you've got me yearning for Pringles varieties I'd have to go to abroad to find. They've got Prawn Cocktail and even Mystery Flavor.

No white chocolate for me though. That's just chocolate without the chocolate and so not even worth contemplating.

[EyewatchTV211]

1 hour ago, Terrafamilia said:

Now you've got me yearning for Pringles varieties I'd have to go to abroad to find. They've got Prawn Cocktail and even Mystery Flavor.

No white chocolate for me though. That's just chocolate without the chocolate and so not even worth contemplating.

The bold is just worth repeating on its own. 

[Kiddvideo]

5 hours ago, Anela said:

I also liked Jason pointing out that he's nice to her, but she's mean to him.

This was the first time I realized he understood. Just prior she was listing her complaints and he was smiling like he didn't understand the words but she was using a pleasant tone of voice so she must be complimenting him. And he was nice to her still! Two points: Jason.

[possibilities]

11 hours ago, Lebanna said:

With all the disqualifications for getting into the Real Good Place, I'm starting to think that it will turn out to be completely empty, and if they ever get there, they will be literally the only people or entities they ever see again for all eternity.

Then the show will start having them scheme to get out of it.

9 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

I really wanted to see the philosophy rap musical. I thought the song Chidi sang was promising.

I feel the same way!

 

RE Michael's "sincere" apology, I was certain he was faking it. Some would even say that actions speak louder than words, so his giving them all thoughtful gifts was better than his attempt to manipulate Chidi with words. But I also thought that giving them gifts could be manipulative. Basically, we (and the 4 friends) have every reason not to trust Michael.

I think the flaw in Michael's plan is having a Janet. She's programmed to make people happy. That goes against the torture agenda. It empowers the 4 torturees and has given them ways out of the situation. And now her glitching threatens the new scheme.

[Erin]

6 hours ago, DrScottie said:

So I looked at the flavors using my DVR capture:

Mountain Blast, Old American Circus Funky Mustard (it's a real Pringles flavor), Sriracha Sunrise, Garlic, Mystery Flavor (White Chocolate this time), Cool Ranch, Cajun, Margarita (Mix?)  

That last one is tough to make out as it's small reddish text against avocado green, but there is a red-headed girl carrying a margarita glass with shrimp in it and some tiny text on it. 

 

I think that's Lonely Gal Margarita Mix (For One!), a bottle of which rolled away from Eleanor leading to her death.

I'm not sure whether that's a torture or an "opposite torture." Presumably she likes the flavor, but on the other hand: too soon, Michael!

 

[arc]

BTW, from August of last year, here’s a real morals professor’s two year old son on the trolley problem: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-N_RZJUAQY4

[DrScottie]

2 hours ago, Erin said:

I think that's Lonely Gal Margarita Mix (For One!), a bottle of which rolled away from Eleanor leading to her death.

I'm not sure whether that's a torture or an "opposite torture." Presumably she likes the flavor, but on the other hand: too soon, Michael!

Great catch! 

[bros402]

13 hours ago, sacrebleu said:

I'm still trying to wrap my brain around Chidi killing 5 Shakespeare's for one Santa.  I would think he'd be opposed to Santa as a mechanism for bribing children to be good-- rather than arrive at the decision to be good on their own.

 

Besides that, another great show-- I'm interested to see where Janet's glitching goes-- but does it help Team Cockroach keep up the ruse that they're being tortured? or hurt-- because fake Eleanor didn't come up with the earthquake. 

Maybe since there are 5 shakespeares - it is likely there are more. Just one Santa, though - since he'd be shown to be real.

[wilnil]

Janet may remember having been married to Jason despite all the resets since then. We already learned in Season 1 that while she starts out as a nearly blank slate after a reboot, that's only until she finishes downloading all the knowledge in the universe -- and there's no reason that wouldn't include everything that's happened in Michael's neighborhood.

I wonder if it'll occur to any of the four to ask Janet questions about their 802 other afterlives, which would be interesting if only to see how she'd answer.

[Amarsir]

9 hours ago, possibilities said:

RE Michael's "sincere" apology, I was certain he was faking it. Some would even say that actions speak louder than words, so his giving them all thoughtful gifts was better than his attempt to manipulate Chidi with words. 

That was my first instinct too, which got me thinking about the nature of gift giving. It's meaningful because it means they A) learned about us by paying attention, and B) made an effort to acquire it.  In Michael's case neither is true. He knows everything because he was given that information and getting something for them is basically magic. This required nothing from him.

An apology, by contrast, was actual effort. 

[Mabinogia]

16 hours ago, Dowel Jones said:

So, what happens if you're on the Ethics Express and you have a choice between, say, running over the members of The Red Hot Chili Peppers on one track, or switching over and running down one Frenchman?  Do you still go to the Bad Place?

You need to use the Michael strategy, create something that will decapitate the Frenchman as you mow down the Chili Peppers. If you get all sex that is immediate passage to the Good Place. 

[April Bloodgate]

I love this show, but I'm really unhappy with them creating a love triangle around Jason, by far the dumbest person on the show. I know he's "lovable", but 2 extremely smart women falling in love with him? That guy, really?

[ChromaKelly]

14 hours ago, arc said:

BTW, from August of last year, here’s a real morals professor’s two year old son on the trolley problem: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-N_RZJUAQY4

I was just going to post this! It showed up on today. That kid has a future as a demon.

[Delphi]

This was the best,  the blood, the trolley,  the torture.   And of course Jason and Janet,  whom have become my favourite characters. 

[meep.meep]

On October 19, 2017 at 9:24 PM, GaT said:

I laughed through every scenario in the tram, I'm trying not to think too much about what that says about me.

Oh yes, a never ending shrimp dispenser is definitely my idea of The Good Place.

Me too.  Part of it is that you know that Chidi just cannot make decisions.

[CherithCutestory]

6 hours ago, April Bloodgate said:

I love this show, but I'm really unhappy with them creating a love triangle around Jason, by far the dumbest person on the show. I know he's "lovable", but 2 extremely smart women falling in love with him? That guy, really?

I mean not only is he incredibly stupid but he was also perfectly happy to let Tahani (and Chidi) literally burn in hell for his sins. He's funny but he's kind of the worst. And this is a show with literal demons.

[theatremouse]

On 10/19/2017 at 7:00 PM, CaptainTightpants said:

I really think that Michael should have sprung for an ACTUAL pikachu, not a balloon. Probably budgetary concerns with the show.

It's in-character that Jason is would be that ecstatic at just a balloon. So it makes sense to me Michael would not do anything more than that because he didn't need to to get the desired response.

[FormerMod-a1]

I think part of what they like about Jason is 1) what you see is what you get - no games, no ulterior motives, he is as he seems, and 2) he accepts them for who they are.

[AnnaRose]

3 hours ago, aquarian1 said:

I think part of what they like about Jason is 1) what you see is what you get - no games, no ulterior motives, he is as he seems, and 2) he accepts them for who they are.

But he's not really like that, at least going by his earth life.  He framed his friend's (ex-friend's?) girlfriend and had the ulterior motive of slashing the other dance group's tires when he agreed to meet them.  I guess Tahani doesn't know how terrible Jason really was. 

Janet knows everything, but it's not like she married Jason because she was in love with him, right?  I haven't seen last season's episodes since they aired, but didn't Janet just marry Jason because he asked her to, and there was nothing in her programming that would cause her to say no to his request?  So romantic.

[Delphi]

I think Jason,  while impossibly stupid and pretty self serving, is an incredibly nice guy.   He does not care who you are, Michael.   What one did,  Eleanor.  Where their from,  Janet.   He only understands loving and giving.   Even while malicious he's not actively trying to be horrible, he's just dumb.  

[Mabinogia]

9 hours ago, Delphi said:

Even while malicious he's not actively trying to be horrible, he's just dumb.  

That sums up Jason for me. He's not malicious, he's just not that bright. He's like a child to me. He will do selfish, mean things, but not because he's mean, just because he doesn't know better. I think the horrible things he did were because of the people he was around in his life, like Eleanor. I think both of them would have been better people with better nurturing. Tahani, too, really. She would have been a much better person had her family given a shit about her. 

That's why I keep leaning towards this being a sort of last chance for redemption place rather than straight up bad place. Because, other than Chidi who we really don't know that much about how he was brought up, they were all strongly affected by the people around them. I am curious about Jason's family, because we never hear about them, only his "friends" who all sound like they were the type of people a kid with no family support would end up with. 

One of the things I love about this show, the concept of it, is that these four people were originally chosen to torture each other but ultimately ended up making each other better people. It's truly a great message hidden in a hilariously nonsensical show. 

[Johnny Dollar]

This show is so smart and the actors are so charming. It’s gonna suck when it gets cancelled. 

[piewarmer]

1 hour ago, Johnny Dollar said:

This show is so smart and the actors are so charming. It’s gonna suck when it gets cancelled. 

Michael, is that you torturing us again?

[cpcathy]

Don't be stupid, NBC!

[Zahdii]

For some reason, I've always assumed that Jason was never that bright, and never had caretakers in his life that tried to nurture him.  I envision him as being put into foster care from birth after being born to a drug addicted mother and an unknown father. 

For a few years his mother pretended that she wanted him back, mostly because it looked better when she appeared before a judge for her latest arrest, but never really gave a crap about him.  But her pretend interest kept him from being adopted, so he was moved from one foster home to another to prevent him from bonding with foster parents, because that would be bad if he were ever to be given back to his mother or adopted. 

Eventually, Jason learned that the people he lived with were just people he lived with for a time, and his most meaningful relationships were with his street friends.  Friends who were as damaged as he was or users that, well, used him to further their own goals.  The sweet nature we see could have been his natural personality or could have been formed in early childhood as a survival technique.  But we know that he did a lot of bad things when alive without seeming to understand that they were bad, why they were bad, or what his actions did to other people.  I guess in a way he was a sweet innocent without the capacity to understand the damage he did or how it affected other people.  Frankly, Jason comes close to being described as a sociopath.

Now that Jason is in the afterlife, I believe he has the most potential to change.  He's still using his earthly personality and limitations of being sweet but stupid, but who is to say that he has to stay that way?  Eleanor is actively changing for the better.  Tahani is starting to do the same.  Chidi has just had a big kick in the butt to move foreward.  Why should Jason be confined to being a good natured dummy?  Isn't it possible that he's got some more brain power than before and just needs to learn to access and use it? 

I say this as a viewer who considers Jason as my least favorite of the five leads.

[Amarsir]

17 hours ago, Delphi said:

I think Jason,  while impossibly stupid and pretty self serving, is an incredibly nice guy.   He does not care who you are, Michael.   What one did,  Eleanor.  Where their from,  Janet.   He only understands loving and giving.   Even while malicious he's not actively trying to be horrible, he's just dumb.  

They told us Jason was nice, through Eleanor's words. I don't know if they showed us that though. I definitely disagree that "he only understands loving and giving".

Maybe we could give a pass to robbing the restaurant. Maybe he doesn't understand that businesses don't just have infinite money. I've know people can have that delusion. I've been on social media. But torching the boat and slashing tires were deliberately done to hurt people, and to take joy from their suffering. He understood it wasn't nice. There are religious / philosophical questions about mental capacity and the judgment of "good". But someone who deliberately causes pain doesn't get a free pass just because he's too dumb to breathe.

1 hour ago, Zahdii said:

Now that Jason is in the afterlife, I believe he has the most potential to change.  He's still using his earthly personality and limitations of being sweet but stupid, but who is to say that he has to stay that way?  ... Why should Jason be confined to being a good natured dummy?  Isn't it possible that he's got some more brain power than before and just needs to learn to access and use it? 

I want to see him grow like the rest. But really here in the Good/Bad place we haven't seen the petty character he was on Earth. Eleanor has to fight her bad instincts. Tahani lapses into shallowness, and Chidi has had many problems of indecision. But Jason has just been a vehicle for dumb guy jokes. We can't get growth if he's not authentically flawed at the start.

If they show him wanting something impulsively, not getting it, and realizing that him not having it is for someone else's benefit. I would consider that in-character growth. As yet we haven't seen it.

[Lugal]

Jason is Jason.  He wants to be himself and show that to the world.  When he can't do that, either when he's forced to pretend to be Jianyu, the Tofu Man, or he just wants to go beyond being a DJ in Jacksonville, he takes the easiest possible solution (at least in his mind) and that's what gets him into trouble.  He was one of those people who just kind of coasts through life.

I agree that Jason is not malicious, he doesn't really think beyond the moment.  When Acidcat sued him for "bleach of contract" his response was to blow up his speedboat.  Just like when Eleanor was ready to go back to save Chidi and Tahani, Jason tried to blow up the train (with a molotov) to stop it.

When he and Pillboy needed money they thought to rob the restaurant that they were eating at.  And they didn't stick anyone up, they would come back later and rob it when no one was around.  They had to go come up with their plan (although they probably stole that from a movie or cartoon) and get the safe, and as Jason said "we've thought of everything except alibis and escape plans."