S02.E02: A Manny-Splendored Thing

[izabella]

42 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

Kate was ridiculously childish in this episode, but I'll give her one thing: Rebecca's comment about how one day she'll be able to power through a crowd was uncalled for.

Why the hell would someone in her position say something like that? You know your daughter is hypersensitive to your criticisms, so why would one of the first things out of your mouth be about how she has room for improvement?

If you want to help her improve, wait until an appropriate time, and find a better way to say it.

This is exactly what bugs Kate.  Even when Rebecca is trying to be encouraging, she slips in a little criticism.  It's just like the relationship Rebecca has described having with her own mother.

[candall]

38 minutes ago, lovetowrite73 said:

I would like Toby a whole lot more if he suggested Kate go to therapy. She was SO unfair to her mother!

Are you kidding?  Kate would go full Chainsaw Massacre on Toby if he suggested she could use some counseling.

 

27 minutes ago, J0nas3 said:

 I will say though, that that shouldn’t have to be what Kate remembers about her first gig.

And it is not what Kate "has to" remember about her first gig.  It's the thing she's chosen to make the hallmark of the event.  Not to be proud, not to be happy, not to be flushed with joy at her first real gig, not to bask in the glow of her boyfriend's admiration.  Her mother showed up and therefore, cry, cry, cry, everything was ruined.  Kate was right on the button when she told Rebecca her offense was existing.

The worst was when Kate said, "Well, you did it, Ma.  You got me to say terrible, unfair things."  You know who else employs that strategy?  Abusers.  "You did it again.  Why do you always make me hit you?"

***********************

I do think Rebecca made one Bad Mommy move tonight--abandoning the child she had come to see, without a word, so she could go watch another child perform instead.  Geez, it's Kevin who should have mommy issues, not Kate--it's like Rebecca got a last minute better offer.

[Runningwild]

Poor Kevin. He really does get ignored by the family. Kate and Beth didn’t come off looking good in this episode and I completely understand Kate’s pain when Rebecca got in that little dig about one day powering through the crowd. You can’t blame people for how you react. And Randall!!  Kevin missed the opening night of his play to come to your rescue and you bail on his show taping too?  And as for Beth - she doesn’t seem to like Kevin. Or laughing. I like that Toby said he’s Team Kate Foreva but he might want to try to get her some therapy. Does she not want to lose weight now ? Shouldn’t she already be in therapy?

[movingtargetgal]

35 minutes ago, elle said:

Beth and Randall - she was not listening to his concerns just as he had not been listening to her in the previous episode.  Unless both were on the same page, in sync, etc then one would hope they would take some time to review their decision instead of having to do anything RIGHT NOW.

It has only been a year since since Randall confronted William and brought him home.  During that time he not only got to know his biological father, he took care of William as he was dying.  He also learned of Rebecca's secret.  She knew William and had lied to him his entire life.  Randall had a minor emotional breakdown and he quit his job after William's memorial (not that leaving that soul sucking job was a bad thing).  Randall needs to take some time to process all of this.  I am surprised Beth agreed to go along with this at this point of their lives.  Not only is Randall dealing with such stress but the girls are as well.  They got to know their grandfather, watched his illness progress and lost him in a period of a few months.  I think Randall and Beth are going to be great adoptive parents down the road.  They just need to take a least a year so they can regroup.  This way they will have the emotional reserves they will need to be foster parents.  Doing it here and now is not fair to Randall, Beth, their girls and their future foster child.

[DebbieM4]

31 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

Kate was ridiculously childish in this episode, but I'll give her one thing: Rebecca's comment about how one day she'll be able to power through a crowd was uncalled for.

Why the hell would someone in her position say something like that? You know your daughter is hypersensitive to your criticisms, so why would one of the first things out of your mouth be about how she has room for improvement?

If you want to help her improve, wait until an appropriate time, and find a better way to say it.

I agree. 

I do think Kate is very immature.  Yes, her father died when she was a teenager, but that's not an excuse to be so consistently self-involved and self-pitying.  She's very needy, and that's tiresome in someone who's old enough to be in an adult relationship.   The kid in all of us remembers how our parents, siblings, and others made us feel growing up.  Those relationships are fraught with emotion and baggage.  But - for the sake of her own sanity - she really should have sucked it up and not turned on Rebecca that way.  It seemed to me that she was the one who ruined the memory of her first singing gig, not Rebecca.  Far more appropriate (and sensible) would have been to say a quick hello, minimize conversation, and and then bitch to Toby about it later.    I really dislike Rebecca (always have), but Kate had it in her power to keep the memory of that night a good one, and she chose not to do that.  

However, I do agree with you that Rebecca is not as innocent and supportive as she thinks she is.  Offering a backhanded compliment to someone like Kate was extremely insensitive.  In the flashbacks, although Rebecca seemed to be encouraging Kate with a big smile, I definitely detected an undercurrent of competition and making it all about her.  (That's been my biggest problem with Rebecca from the beginning.  She's very often selfish and rarely tries to see things from anyone else's point of view.)  Kate should have had a new dress for the talent show.  The night should have been all her own, without even a whisper of suggestion that it had anything to do with Rebecca's own singing talent.  Kate had a nice voice for a kid, and it would have been a great opportunity to boost her self-esteem.  Instead, Rebecca was all, "I sang too!  Here's the dress I wore!"  It would have been far better for Rebecca's role to have been Supportive Mom.  Period.  Making a big deal about her own singing only opened the door for further comparison,  which has clearly already been an issue.  So I totally get why adult Kate doesn't view Rebecca's "support" as all that supportive.  There's a passive-aggressive aspect to her compliments that Kate apparently has been painfully aware of since she was a child.  (Don't let her get to you, Kate!  Realize that this is who she is, don't expect her to be different, and celebrate your own successes with people who make you feel good about yourself!  And also, try to grow up a little.)

[DebbieM4]

29 minutes ago, candall said:

 

I do think Rebecca made one Bad Mommy move tonight--abandoning the child she had come to see, without a word, so she could go watch another child perform instead.  Geez, it's Kevin who should have mommy issues, not Kate--it's like Rebecca got a last minute better offer.

I hated that they all bailed on Kevin.  I wouldn't do that to a casual acquaintance without a damn good reason, and certainly not a friend or family.  I wondered why Toby didn't go with Kate when she left for her singing gig because that I would have understood and pretty much expected.  So I had no problem when he got up to go.   But Rebecca leaving with him?  And Randall and Beth simply walking out?  It's rude and inconsiderate.  You're there for a show, so sit down and watch it.  I would be crushed to be excited about family coming only to have them disappear and make me the lowest priority possible.   I don't want people showing up who don't want to be there in the first place, but if they're going to be so blatant about it, please do us all a favor and don't come at all.

[Artsda]

I feel like everytime they go support Kevin half of them disappear. I feel bad for him, no wonder he always felt ignored.  I liked how he handled the new spiteful script, he Clooney'd it. lol 

I didn't blame Kate for being snippy. Rebecca really couldn't just say "that was great, I'm proud of you" and leave it at that. She had to put in a critique just like Kate was a kid and just doing a talent show. She felt stage mom like towards Kate and the music. 

[Rowan]

So, Kate lost my ass, tonight. I tried to understand where she was coming from, but I can't get there. She was being an insecure asshole. I thought the comment the Rebecca made about powering through the crowd was a little obtuse, but just maybe she mistook Kate's discomfort at her presence for a reaction to the crowd not being terribly invested in the beginning of the performance. Thank goodness Kate set her straight on what a shit Mom she is. <eye roll>

I like Sophie. I like Kevin. I like them together. 

I love that Beth fell for Kevin's line. It was one of the few, actual compelling moments of the episode. 

[izabella]

4 minutes ago, Rowan said:

So, Kate lost my ass, tonight. I tried to understand where she was coming from, but I can't get there. She was being an insecure asshole. I thought the comment the Rebecca made about powering through the crowd was a little obtuse, but just maybe she mistook Kate's discomfort at her presence for a reaction to the crowd not being terribly invested in the beginning of the performance.

It wasn't just about that one comment, for Kate.  Rebecca was shown doing that to teen Kate when she sang during breakfast, and Rebecca told her she'd be great if she could just hold that note at the end.  I think we're supposed to understand that this is a pattern that's been bugging Kate for a long time, and after 30 years, she did not want to deal with it that night.

Edited October 4, 2017 by izabella

[elle]

1 hour ago, stonehaven said:

On a happy note, I love the idea of "Randalling"...

I agree with Randall, stop making his name something.  Beth knowing that this is what he does that she has made his name mean something should have been a clue that he was not ready for fostering a child.  Add to that Kevin's statement that his brother doesn't do anything where he could possibly fail, or words to that effect, also should have reminded her that there is a reason her husband is acting the way he is.  She needs to listen to him about fostering as much as he needed to listen to her about adopting.    But. you know, writers write drama.

Quote

Kate was ridiculously childish in this episode, but I'll give her one thing: Rebecca's comment about how one day she'll be able to power through a crowd was uncalled for.

Why the hell would someone in her position say something like that? You know your daughter is hypersensitive to your criticisms, so why would one of the first things out of your mouth be about how she has room for improvement?

If you want to help her improve, wait until an appropriate time, and find a better wa

Being mortified that your mother just "shushed" the crowd, that I can understand.

I did not take Rebecca's comment about the crowd as negative.  Rebecca has sung in a bar, Kate knows this, Rebecca is passing on some advice based on experience.  However, Kate is predisposed to take anything her mother says as negative, not to say that she does not have reason, but said by anyone else it would not have sounded harsh.  To me, it was supportive because it implies that Kate will have more gigs and will get another chance to win over the crowd and/or get used to having people not listen to her because she is singing in a bar.

But also, I see the point being made by many that this is pattern that has been there since Kate was a child.  Rebecca thinks she is being helpful but is consciously or not making about her.  I did wonder what people would be saying if this was a father/son relationship and instead of singing as the shared dream it was baseball or football.

What Kate said to Rebecca "you exist" is stone cold and no one should ever have to hear that.

1 hour ago, Eaglemama said:

As far as Kevin and his family deserting him, I remember the same thing happened last year with hiis play opening.  Do love the Jack and Kate relationship.

Are you referring to the second time we saw the play where Kevin actually went on stage?  The first time everyone but Randall was there, it was Kevin who did not show up to go help the aforementioned Randall.

eta: request for those rewatching the show - What did Toby say to Rebecca before he said he was Team Kate.  

Edited October 4, 2017 by elle

[NeverLate]

I sometimes wonder if girls are closer to their fathers, than their mothers. I was closer to my father, and to this day, I miss him. I was never a daddy's girl, but young Kate's face just lights up around her father.

I'm wondering if Randall was right to be worried about being foster parents. The fact that one daughter said to Beth, have some wine, it calms you, spoke volumes to me. That one little sentence. Sometimes Beth seems very brittle to me. 

Toby, I'm team Kate! Yes you are! :) 

[SueB]

So Kate has got some pretty deep scar tissue, some that Rebecca owns, some of her own making.  And she was on a hair trigger tonight. 

It's kinda amazing that as much love as Jack and Rebecca seemed to have poured into those kids, they ALL have insecurities.

Kate - I think Rebecca DID do a lot of silent judging with Kate, especially when she was younger.  And Rebecca's mom did that with Rebecca.  Kate was so nervous about any little passive/aggressive comment Rebecca might make.  And yet Rebecca doesn't even know she's doing it when she does.  Now I'm NOT Team Kate on the fight tonight, Kate was wound so tight she was likely to explode no matter what.  But there was literally NO REASON for Rebecca to provide any "notes" to her for her first performance.  Especially after Kate already snapped at her about being reminded again of how Rebecca used to sing.  Rebecca was just not tuned into her daughter.  And that's probably the real issue.  If Rebecca sees Kate as an extension of herself, then she's always projecting on Kate somehow.  BUT, in truth there's no valid reason for Kate to say "just existing" is what Rebecca did wrong.  In sum: we already know Rebecca has nitpicked in the past and Kate is competitive with her (including for Jack's affection).  Rebecca, as the mother, should have supported Kate better when she was a child.  OTOH, Kate is now a 37 year old woman.  She needs to get her butt into therapy and figure out why she is still competing with her mother and how can she form a decent relationship with her.  Jack is dead. Rebecca is not.  Kate needs to unpack her shit w/ professional help and then try to work it out with Rebecca.  And if she needs Rebecca to show up at therapy with her, Rebecca needs to do so.

Randall - WAS Randalling.  And it's a sign of how much he wanted Beth that he would go to his brother (the brother he competed with on a constant basis) and get him to Cyrano a pickup line for him.  And he listened on the phone!  I so want to see that conversation.  Kindof undermines the "Kevin was always a piece of shit to Randall theory."  And he's right to panic.  I think he and Beth need to get some training before they jump into fostering someone with emotional issues.  For the girl's sake.

Kevin - First, I FEEL for the guy. 6oz of chicken breast a day?  Why isn't he passed out.  (Side note: But oh Kevin... you looked awesome in the diaper... just saying).  And he clearly has good reason to feel abandoned by his family.  "Kevin will understand".  If I was him, I'd wonder if I was just too boring to spend time with him.  I'm kinda glad that he told Beth about the Cyrano move.  I love Beth but she needs to know she fell for the MANNY's LINES.  HAH.  I must admit, I just KNEW that asshole of a director was going to humiliate Kevin.  Right from the start I suspected a trap.  And thankfully he's always had Sophie give him attention (when his parents did not).  And it's only Sophie's laughter that mattered.  So if she was okay with him in a diaper, he would roll with it.  I like those two together.  But I kind wish she would lay some home-truths on Mama Pearson about Kevin being left to fend for himself.  I think Kevin would be the first to cheer Kate leaving.  And he'd totally accept that Toby would go with.  But Rebecca chose Kate over Kevin.  And Randall had a wig-out right during Kevin's moment.  At least his two nieces and Miguel like him.  It's almost enough to make me Team Miguel.

And Toby absolutely WINS the night for declaring himself Team Miguel.  Jack Pearson's early death has left a hole that no one could ever fill.  And Miguel hasn't tried, as far as I can tell.  But he also has been somewhat ostracized.  

Jack having Vietnam flashbacks looks like a rich vein of backstory to me.  We learned Jack had just arrived back from Vietnam in S1.  That was a Vietnam buddy that he almost robbed a bar with in "Moonshadow".  I'm glad he told Kate 1 on 1.  I think that special bond is going to leave her completely bereft when he dies.  And sliding into the shallow end of the pool a bit... Milo hitting the bag... yeah, that worked.  

[WhosThatGirl]

I like Sophia and she was the only who supported Kevin tonight. Well.. Miguel was there too but his actual family was all off doing.. things I guess? Kind of awful. Explains a lot about Kevin’s personality though. 

[OtterMommy]

Well, I found that to be quite a snooze.

Kate - I get it, you have mommy issues...and no amount of bar singing is going to cure them.  You need therapy, from a professional (although I really don't want to see that on TV).  And while I don't want to watch you in therapy, I can't see how this show can realistically get your character to grow without it.

Toby - You were actually likable tonight, which is frightening.  Your "team Kate" speech is what needed to be said.

Kevin and Sophie - This is just not working for me.  The actors don't seem to mesh well together and Kevin is actually less interesting with Sophie than he was without her.  Nothing about their relationship rings of true love to me.

Randall and Beth - You know, Randall is right to be concerned.  I'm not saying that people shouldn't foster, and I have great respect for those who do.  But it isn't easy and Randall is actually right--and not overreacting--about this.  Oh, and Randall and Beth's relationship so far this season is a complete disconnect from what it was last season.  But at least Beth didn't look like Prince tonight.

I've decided that teenaged Kate is my favorite Kate, although I like kid Kate too.  I'm not so hot right now on adult Kate.

 

On 10/3/2017 at 10:18 PM, Lady Calypso said:

Meanwhile, Kevin shows some growth by doing his job as the Manny, even with a humiliating scene. I guess Sophie is good for him. Also, I felt bad that, once again, Kevin's family end up leaving before his filming's done. It's not that they needed to stay and they did show up. It's just becoming somewhat of a pattern where everyone seems to have other things to do instead of supporting Kevin.

Yeah, I had a hard time buying that Kevin wouldn't be upset that his mother left his taping.  Honestly, I don't think that he would blame Kate or Toby for leaving under the circumstances, but his mom flew across the country to see him, not Kate.  But, then again, maybe he was glad she wasn't there once he put on the diaper.

[maggiemae]

The show, for the first time, could not hold my attention. Perhaps it was too disjointed?

[DebbieM4]

1 minute ago, OtterMommy said:

Well, I found that to be quite a snooze.

 

Toby - You were actually likable tonight, which is frightening.  Your "team Kate" speech is what needed to be said.

Kevin and Sophie - This is just not working for me.  The actors don't seem to mesh well together and Kevin is actually less interesting with Sophie than he was without her.  Nothing about their relationship rings of true love to me.

Sorry to slice and dice your post.  It wasn't intentional, and I did agree with all of it.

Yes, this season so far has been pretty much a snooze (other than the end of the first episode, which did wake me up a little).  Something seems off since last season, and I don't feel anywhere near as pulled in.

I am very much not Team Toby ever, but he did have some good moments tonight.  I liked that he seemed more normal, more low-key.  Not actually low-key, but low-key for Toby.  He took the obnoxious act down a few notches, and it was a good look for him.

I totally agree about Kevin and Sophie.  Kevin has never been very interesting, IMO, definitely a weak link.  But with Sophie, it's even worse.  As others have said, there's no chemistry.  They're not believable as a couple, not compelling separately or together, and I don't care about their relationship at all.  Sophie could disappear and I probably wouldn't even notice.

I really need Randall and Beth to get back to who they were.  Last season they were the high point of this show for me, separately and together..  The characters were clearly defined, the chemistry was great, the relationship seemed real.  That's all off-track now, which is hugely disappointing.  

[pennben]

2 hours ago, Cardie said:

 I suspect there is some competition in regard to her father as well. some Oedipal undercurrents.

Okay, I wasn't going to say anything about this, but your comment has clearly 'forced' me to:)  I'm not sure if it's an age thing, a completely different sort of relationship I had growing up, or an Oedipal thing, but I found it a bit creepy with young Kate cupping her father's face in her hands several times this evening.  Eeeep! And, just no.

Edited October 4, 2017 by pennben

[WhosThatGirl]

The thing is though.. I feel like Rebecca should have stayed to watch Kevin. I feel like it was obvious Kate didn’t want her at her performance. Also.. it was really rude of Randell and Beth(who instigated the argument about the fostering during the taping when it could have waited, but she was incredibly rude tonight regarding Kevin) to have their discussion at that moment. I get it’s a big deal and kind of pressing but seriously.. this trip to LA should not have been when it was happening. Just like when Beth didn’t want to throw down in an adoption parking lot, having it on a sound stage while you should be watching your brother/in law do something isn’t the place either. Kate and Toby are the ones who had legitimate reasons to bail out. No one else did. Also I meant Kevin’s actual family.. not Miguel’s. Hey speaking of.. can we meet one of them? He has two kids right?

I don’t know. I liked Last weeks episode enough this weeks episode has me worried that this show may have peaked last year. 

Edited October 4, 2017 by WhosThatGirl

[elle]

4 minutes ago, pennben said:

young Kate cupping her father's face in her hands several times this evening.

It was a little weird, but I think she was copying what Jack did with his kids to calm them down or comfort them.  We saw him do this when teen Randall was having a panic attack about some test/paper.

Or, at least that is how I remember it.

[afrocorgi]

As someone who grew up around alcoholics, Milo's performance as a relapsing drunk was painfully real to me. The twitchiness, the gulping, the shallow breathing and wandering eyes - all masterfully done.

Teenage Kate is a great little actress - she's got super expressive eyes and really held her own in that last scene with Jack.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

That Was Us:

[ItCouldBeWorse]

9 minutes ago, WhosThatGirl said:

The thing is though.. I feel like Rebecca should have stayed to watch Kevin. I feel like it was obvious Kate didn’t want her at her performance. Also.. it was really rude of Randell and Beth(who instigated the argument about the fostering during the taping when it could have waited, but she was incredibly rude tonight regarding Kevin) to have their discussion at that moment. I get it’s a big deal and kind of pressing but seriously.. this trip to LA should not have been when it was happening. Just like when Beth didn’t want to throw down in an adoption parking lot, having it on a sound stage while you should be watching your brother/in law do something isn’t the place either. Kate and Toby are the ones who had legitimate reasons to bail out. No one else did. Also I meant Kevin’s actual family.. not Miguel’s. Hey speaking of.. can we meet one of them? He has two kids right?

I don’t know. I liked Last weeks episode enough this weeks episode has me worried that this show may have peaked last year. 

Agreed.  Kevin explicitly invited his mother to come watch him.  Kate did not.  Kate had a good reason to leave.  Toby was the only other person who had a decent reason to be somewhere other than the taping.

16 minutes ago, pennben said:

I'm not sure if it's an age thing, a completely different sort of relationship I had growing up, or an Oedipal thing, but I found it a bit creepy with young Kate cupping her father's face in her hands several times this evening.  Eeeep! And, just no.

I kind of agree.  It almost looked as if she was going to kiss him on the mouth. However, Kate was clearly the impetus for Jack giving up drinking the first time.  It seems like he did it for her more than he did it for Rebecca.

7 minutes ago, elle said:

It was a little weird, but I think she was copying what Jack did with his kids to calm them down or comfort them.  We saw him do this when teen Randall was having a panic attack about some test/paper.

I think you're right, but it comes across differently when a child does it to a parent than when a parent does it to a child.

Edited October 4, 2017 by ItCouldBeWorse

[Bama]

Can we get Milo boxing every episode, please and thank you?

I'm in the minority it seems, but I loved this episode.  It was "quieter" but it really delved in to the meat of why Kevin, Kate, and Randall are who they are.

Kate can take several fucking seats.

I've had problems with Rebecca in the past but as the mom of a 15 year old daughter, tonight hit home hard for me.  My daughter and I are so similar personality wise but watching tonight it kind of hit me - I pull a Rebecca with her sometimes.  And it DOES come from a place of love - we are both very fiery and opinionated and I've learned in my 45 years that sometimes you have to temper your personal opinions in certain situations.  And when I see my daughter going down a path that I know from experience may cause her grief, I give her advice and boy howdy, she doesn't want to hear and surely let's me know.  And that hurts my feelings because I'm truly trying to help her avoid the pitfalls I experienced at her age.  Mother-daughter relationships are fraught.  Period.

And, holy cow, I SOBBED during the Jack/Teen Kate confession scene.  When she put her hands on his face and usurped the role of "parent" to comfort her father.....man that got me.

I do not think I will be able to handle watching her in the aftermath of Jack's death.

Oh, and along with more Boxing Milo, can we get more Vietnam Milo please?  

It is so impressive how Milo can literally age himself with only the help of facial hair and his own expressive face, without the need for obvious aging make-up or prosthetics. 

Toby may be Team Kate Foreva but I'm totally Team Milo Foreva.  He really cranks my tractor.

[dwarmed]

I think those two scenes of Kate (at different ages) cupping her dad’s face shows that Jack leaned on his daughter heavily for emotional support for a very long time. That’s her taking the parental role, as often happens with children of alcoholics. It makes her too responsible for her dad’s well-being and sets her up for resentment towards her mom. I think it goes to explain the heavy burden/guilt she bears for Jack’s death, whether she had reason to feel guilty or not. Not really fair for Jack to put that on his child. Not the perfect dad. It really put a dark spin on the gesture that was so moving last season. It made me uncomfortable, but not because it was squicky, but because I didn’t like seeing a child have that burden. 

[pennben]

45 minutes ago, WhosThatGirl said:

 Also I meant Kevin’s actual family.. not Miguel’s.

Whoops, I actually just deleted the portion of my comment you were responding to here, because, whoooboy, did I ever read your original comment wrong!  I apologize, in particular, about my now deleted strongly worded "step-families are families too" rant!   Second "eeep!!" of the night for me here:)!

Carry on............:)!!

[Spencer Hastings]

Kate officially lost me tonight.  She was downright cruel to Rebecca.  Yes, Rebecca made a comment about controlling the crowd but that doesn't justify Kate's abrasiveness towards her mother. Resenting your mother's existence because she had the nerve to love, support, and dedicate her entire life to you must be so tough.  I bet Randall's foster kid would love that mother. 

Kate is totally jealous of Rebecca and hates that Rebecca dotes on her because she doesn't feel like she's good enough to be perfect Rebecca's daughter.  

Beth's face when she told Randall to table the discussion and he decided to keep talking was totally me today with my students when they chose to ignore every direction I gave them!

[MoonMountain]

4 minutes ago, Bama said:

Kate can take several fucking seats.

I've had problems with Rebecca in the past but as the mom of a 15 year old daughter, tonight hit home hard for me.  My daughter and I are so similar personality wise but watching tonight it kind of hit me - I pull a Rebecca with her sometimes.  And it DOES come from a place of love - we are both very fiery and opinionated and I've learned in my 45 years that sometimes you have to temper your personal opinions in certain situations.  And when I see my daughter going down a path that I know from experience may cause her grief, I give her advice and boy howdy, she doesn't want to hear and surely let's me know.  And that hurts my feelings because I'm truly trying to help her avoid the pitfalls I experienced at her age.  Mother-daughter relationships are fraught.  Period.

Yes, I totally felt Rebecca helping young Kate with her song was coming from a place of love. How exciting for her that her only daughter has an interest, and maybe even some talent, in something she is good at and has experience with too? I thought the dress thing was so sweet, and Rebecca was clearly excited that Kate was following in her footsteps, and hoping she could mentor her and help her. What could have been something that brought them closer together (and I'm sure that's what Rebecca was hoping for) ended up causing a lot of unnecessary resentment. I loved the shushing of the bar guests when Kate started to sing. So embarrassing, but 100% absolutely something my parents would have done.

It's interesting to me, having seen a bit more of the backstory between those two, that adult Kate seems to be specifically auditioning for singing gigs in bars, exactly what Rebecca did around her same age. There are so many other directions she could go in, especially in LA -- musical theater (professional or community), take classical voice lessons and join a professional choir, commercial voiceover work, church gigs, even focusing on jazz and learning a new style. I feel like by sticking to doing cover songs at the bar is too similar a trajectory to Rebecca. Kate isn't necessarily setting herself up to get over these issues anytime soon. She'll just continue to compare herself to Rebecca and blame it all on her.

And, yeah, how rude of everyone to bail on Kevin! Randall and Beth picked a totally inappropriate time to have that argument. I know Randall likes to get things off his chest, but that was a little dramatic. Kate and Toby, understood, although it would have been nice to see Kate text Kevin explaining why she had to leave, but to break a leg or something. Instead they all just ghosted the poor guy. He was probably so confused to see just his nieces and Miguel sitting there, when he arranged for them all to be in the front row. Geeze. I'm not sold on Sophie. She totally threw him under the bus reenacting his meltdown -- why would she think that was appropriate in terms of his feelings, regardless of whether or not they were on set where they had no idea who could be hanging around.

[bros402]

Kate was horrible this episode, you just don't say those things.

I'm liking Sophie more and more, though.

[3 is enough]

Quote

Okay, I wasn't going to say anything about this, but your comment has clearly 'forced' me to:)  I'm not sure if it's an age thing, a completely different sort of relationship I had growing up, or an Oedipal thing, but I found it a bit creepy with young Kate cupping her father's face in her hands several times this evening.  Eeeep! And, just no.

You are not alone.  It just gave me a creepy vibe.  I get that Jack did that to Randall to calm him down, and it was supposed to come off as a bit of a parent-child role reversal, but it just seemed "off".

Poor Kevin.  Really.  They treat him like crap.

[WhosThatGirl]

40 minutes ago, pennben said:

Whoops, I actually just deleted the portion of my comment you were responding to here, because, whoooboy, did I ever read your original comment wrong!  I apologize, in particular, about my now deleted strongly worded "step-families are families too" rant!   Second "eeep!!" of the night for me here:)!

Carry on............:)!!

It’s totally fine! I wasn’t exactly clear on my original post either!

Yeah.. I second, third, and fourth that Adult Kate needs therapy. It’s hours later and I’m real unsure if we’re supposed understand her side or not when she shouted that Rebecca was wrong for “existing “. What does someone do when someone says that to them? And  when it’s your family member? I mean.. if Kate were a teenager, this angsty speech would be a thing (we were all teens once and we all shouted things about and possibly to or parents) it also probably wouldn’t have been as harsh. The fact that Kate’s an adult, she could say the exact words that could hurt someone. And also.. knowing she shouldn’t say them.

Also placing it all on Rebecca, that now Kate was upset and had to say awful things was such a Manipulative move. I hope the writers did this intentionally and not not and I hope they didn’t want us to think that Kate is a victim or something. I never know anymore.  It bugs me so much because Kate is an adult who is acting like a child and yes she has issues and she said as much that being around her mother makes her feel this way, but again.. this has clearly been something she’s been grappling with for a while and along with trying to lose her weight, she really should have gone to some counseling because she said some terrible things, I’ll ask again how can you come back from that? 

Edited October 4, 2017 by WhosThatGirl

[CelticBlackCat]

Kate should not have said the "existing" thing to her mother, but I can see why Kate would get upset at the backhanded compliment of powering through the crowd.  I feel that Kate would have been able to power through on her own if she hadn't seen Rebecca there along with Toby.  Toby is the only one who should have left The Manny show when Kate got the last-minute offer to sing.

For once Toby did right by declaring his Team Kate Foreva stance.

Beth and Randall and that foster thing is just wrong.  They should have shelved that whole issue while they were supposedly there to support Kevin.  Beth trying to force Randall to fill out the papers while they're at the taping?

Kevin suffered the humiliation instead of bailing or throwing a fit, which shows he has grown up and handled the situation in an adult manner, ironically playing a baby wearing a diaper.  I'm glad Sophie was there to support him, but I'm not feeling the chemistry in that relationship.

I am not looking forward to the foster storyline.  This is going to take away from anyone else's screen time and add more confusion to the many people to keep track of already.  Why can't we get to know the two girls Beth and Randall have?

[Racj82]

5 hours ago, lovetowrite73 said:

I would like Toby a whole lot more if he suggested Kate go to therapy. She was SO unfair to her mother!

I'm sure that would go over well with Kate...and a lot of the viewers.

[MoonMountain]

1 minute ago, CelticBlackCat said:

I am not looking forward to the foster storyline.  This is going to take away from anyone else's screen time and add more confusion to the many people to keep track of already.  Why can't we get to know the two girls Beth and Randall have?

Yes! I sometimes have a hard time keeping all of the names/people straight. Too many similar sounding names -- Randall, Rebecca, Kate, Kevin. And I can never remember Beth's name, I don't feel her name really suits that character. For some reason I see her as an Angela. Even Sophie...I still think, "Who?" every time she is mentioned.

And I agree, they should show more of the two little girls. They're so cute and seem like good actresses.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Awwww, poor Kevin. Once again his family bails on him. I'm still neutral on Sophie as a character but this time I was glad she was around since everyone but Miguel and the girls totally abandoned him. And it's not like he wouldn't notice since he got them front row seats! I really appreciated that Sophie told Kevin that this was a job and he just had to be the bigger person. I think what really helped during the diaper scene is that he could see Sophie was laughing with him, not at him.

I was most disappointed in Randall leaving. He and Kevin have come to a better understanding over the last year and one of the things that Kevin said hurt him in the past was that Randall never came to see him when he was on The Manny. This was his chance to make it up to him so Randall flew all the way across the country and then walked out because he was spiraling. My family has had some pretty loud obnoxious fights with each other, but we always show up for any kind of thing where we can be there to show support (like performances). Even if you are sitting in the audience seething about something, you still sit in the audience and keep your shit together until it's over.

I had mixed feelings about the whole Kate/Rebecca thing. I get 10 year old Kate being jealous/resentful of Rebecca for being skinny, pretty, and talented. I also know that even as an adult, it's easy to revert back to a really immature version of yourself when you are around your parents and other family members. And I agree that some of the things that Rebecca said which she intended to be helpful could be taken as "you're doing this wrong."

But my major issue is that we have seen no indication of Kate ever trying to address these issues with Rebecca, so Rebecca has no idea that her well intentioned advice/comments are upsetting Kate. You can't expect people to respect boundaries that they don't know exist.

Rebecca thinks that she's giving Kate advice as one singer to another, trying to help her improve and grow as a performer in the same way that she would give feedback to a fellow musician. Kate is interpreting all of this advice as "mommy thinks I'm not good enough."

If Kate just sat her down and said, "I know you're just trying to help make me a better singer, but it hurts my feelings because I feel like I'm not singing as well as you think I should," my guess is that Rebecca would make an effort to stop giving her constructive criticism. The problem is that even when Rebecca gives her compliments, Kate is waiting for some kind of hidden criticism or disappointment. And that's exactly why she needs some therapy.

I really think that Rebecca is not being malicious in her comments either. I think that she knows how tough it is to have an unfulfilled dream and she doesn't want that to happen to Kate. She thinks that giving her singing advice will help Kate achieve her dream.

ITA that there are so many other routes that Kate could pursue besides lead singer in bar/wedding bands, especially in Los Angeles/southern California. I wish Toby or Kevin would ask her what her long term goal is. Is it just to sing anywhere in public? Is it to get a weekly gig at a bar/club? Is it to get a record deal?

[debraran]

I think Jack always gave in to Kate, "here's the icecream" when Mom wanted fruit and maybe other things over the years. Usually that doesn't cause long standing issues, but the weight and jealousy of what she perceived her Mom as being and what she was, probably is out of kilter in her mind. Rebecca didn't leave them to work 60 hours a week at at job, she devoted much of her life to making them happy, doing things together, trying to keep things on the right path. Is she perfect, no, did she favor a personality of one kid over another, probably, but I have no doubt she loved them all equally and tried her best to give them what they needed. Kate needs scapegoats and her Mom is available. I'm surprised since she blames herself for her Dad's death, she isn't nicer to her mother, but I'm sure the psychological angles are multiple.

I feel the adoption story should be more realistic. Having an upper-class black family think they can be saviors to a very troubled kid is a nice thought but make it real, Randall and Beth can't be that naive to think background wont affect their family. There is "troubled" and abandoned, and then there are kids with attachment disorders that can't be fixed and kids with anger issues that need a full time parent that doesn't have other children to attend too. I like the story line, I just want them to make it realistic. Knowing many who work with troubled kids, I've heard of wonderful stories, hairy beginnings that ended up well, but also kids who stole, abused, started fires, fragmented the family they had and that only makes the next placement of the child worse, the cycle goes on and on. Having older children and doing it or no children, but 2 young (and somewhat pampered) ones? IDK.

[Kilcanon]

Reading everyone's posts makes me really have to commend this show. I love how these character we see for only 45 minutes a week really impact how we view our relationships (mothers/daughters, sibling/sibling). 

Between Kate and Rebecca's relationship, I almost see a transition of blame during the three time periods we normally see the family in. When Kate was younger, it is readily apparent that she had self-esteem issues. Some of them seem self-inflicted like seeing the sweater sizes between her and her mother being different. That was totally Kate's perception. On the other hand, there was an episode were Rebecca innocuously dismissed Kate having a sugary cereal and told her to eat a grapefruit instead. While this advice was understandable and done coming from a place of love, it was insensitive to say it in front of her brothers who got to eat the cereal. It isn't the grand monologues that this show would sometimes have us believe happen naturally (I'm looking at you, Toby for the "Team Kate" speech) that impact our character, rather the little comments and gestures over a lifetime.

That being said, adult Kate was 97% in the wrong tonight. When you grow up, you have to recognize whether or not is the right time to take things personally. The best response for her mother's unexpected arrival would have been to politely thank her and keep it moving. Yeah, that "existing" thing? Absolutely horrible, for sure but I really hated how Kate told her that she "made her do it". No. Just no. I mean, for God's sake, at least try to treat her like a sentient human being, if you can't acknowledge her as a parent.

TL; DR:

Boo, Kate!

[ElectricBoogaloo]

11 minutes ago, Kilcanon said:

I really hated how Kate told her that she "made her do it"

I forgot to mention that in my previous post but I hated that too. No one made you do anything, Kate. As cliche as it is to say, you can't control anyone else. The only thing you can control is your reaction to other people, and Kate chose to turn the conversation combative. Kate blaming her mother because now that's what she'll remember from her first gig is all on her because she has held in for all these years that she doesn't like the way her mom makes her feel and then she chose to react negatively to her mom even being at her performance. It was all over her face as soon as she saw Rebecca come in behind Toby so I feel like no matter what Rebecca said afterward, Kate was going to react negatively to it.

[Crs97]

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eta: request for those rewatching the show - What did Toby say to Rebecca before he said he was Team Kate.  

Paraphrasing, but I thought he started by saying that Kate seems to get hyper-sensitive around her mom and he doesn't know their whole story but he has to be Team Kate.

I agreed with his saying that he can't get in the middle of their relationship, but I hope he takes it farther when he is alone with Kate.  Hubby knows being "team me" means that he should be the first person to call me out when I am being rude/insensitive/wrong about something.  

[Autumn]

I am starting to think Miguel is the only one in the family that notices Kevin.  I think Miguel could have been less passive and told Rebecca to sit her ass down and support the child that actually wants her attention.  But he is the guy that married his best friend's widow so he may have his own issues about giving Rebecca advice about her kids.

[Katy M]

7 hours ago, Quickbeam said:

It annoyed me that everyone felt they could just leave Kevin’s show. 

With the exception of Kate and Toby, I agree.  I mean Kate got her first job. She couldn't very well turn that down.  And, of course, Toby would want to support her.  And I think Kevin would support that decision.  Kate is ALWAYS there for him.  And, I will give a semi-pass to Rebecca.  She has seen Kevin perform before, but not Kate. However, Randall and Beth could have had the discussion any time.  

[debraran]

14 minutes ago, Katy M said:

.  And, I will give a semi-pass to Rebecca.  She has seen Kevin perform before, but not Kate. However, Randall and Beth could have had the discussion any time.  

That was odd...she was so-so enthused, now it's "Get this done now!!" We promised the social worker tonight (like there is a firm deadline) They bring the papers to the show? Come on, I love this show, but this is weird. I agree with the girls curiosity, "what are you guys doing?"

[Fostersmom]

8 hours ago, Blakeston said:

Kate was ridiculously childish in this episode, but I'll give her one thing: Rebecca's comment about how one day she'll be able to power through a crowd was uncalled for.

Why the hell would someone in her position say something like that? You know your daughter is hypersensitive to your criticisms, so why would one of the first things out of your mouth be about how she has room for improvement?

If you want to help her improve, wait until an appropriate time, and find a better way to say it.

 

6 hours ago, izabella said:

It wasn't just about that one comment, for Kate.  Rebecca was shown doing that to teen Kate when she sang during breakfast, and Rebecca told her she'd be great if she could just hold that note at the end.  I think we're supposed to understand that this is a pattern that's been bugging Kate for a long time, and after 30 years, she did not want to deal with it that night.

Both of these. This is a pattern for Rebecca and Kate. No matter what Kate does, it seems Rebecca has a comment on how she could improve, do it better. It's fine and dandy to say Rebecca's dong it out of love, but seriously, when you live with that on a regular basis, it's not out of love, it's just another way to let her know she's not quite living up to your expectations and not doing good enough. Especially when we've seen the little slights and "helping" that's not really helping. I don't blame Kate for being particularly pissed Rebecca just showed up. She obviously didn't want her mother there, and to be honest, not even Toby. But then they both show up, Rebecca draws attention to her self, and then feels the show is the time and place to offer some criticism. This was her FIRST show. How about you shut your pie hole and let her enjoy it instead of instantly telling her how she could be better? And Kate just needs to stop telling Toby where she's going, he's obviously not able to respect boundaries either. 

[JudyObscure]

There's a wonderful, funny moment in Amy Tan's "Joy Luck Club" where the young woman tells her mother that the slightest criticism from her hurts her a thousand time more than anyone else's because she is the most powerful person in her life (paraphrasing) and her mother beams and says "That best thing you've ever said to me!"  I really felt for Kate when she was glowing with pride over her first gig, thinking she had done great, and her mother tells her she'll learn to power through in time. Boom. I once cooked what I thought was  a great meal for a guy I was dating and afterword he criticized something saying, "That's okay. You'll learn."  I'll never forget it. I grew up with tons of "constructive criticism."  My parents once had me practice an oral report I had memorized for school.  When I stood up before the class the next day, all their little "tips," flooded my brain and I went completely blank.  For the next three years of high-school I took an automatic "F" rather than stand in front of the class again.  I got over the stage fright in college and had good parts in all the plays -- my parents couldn't understand why they were never invited, but I knew I couldn't perform if they were there. I'm with Toby, team Kate all the way.

Which brings me to Kevin.  How many years have they all been failing to show up for his performances? It's reached the inexcusable stage, now.  I loved seeing why Sophie means so much to him, her little girl self laughing at his Mr. T impression was adorable.

Beth and Randall are all about what they think they can handle and not one thought to what those little girls might be able to handle.  Not looking forward to those two  angels having their lives disrupted.

[llewis823]

9 hours ago, Jodithgrace said:

I feel sorry for Kevin, actually. He seems to get the least support.

I agree. I understand Kate having to leave for the last minute gig. I even understand Toby leaving to support Kate. But Rebecca should have stayed for Kevin's show - his and Kate's shows were equally important but Kevin's show should have been the priority since it was the first committment she made.

[MyAimIsTrue]

I enjoyed Chrissy Metz's singing voice but dammit, nobody should be allowed to sing "Landslide" other than Stevie Nicks.  Nobody.

[llewis823]

9 hours ago, bybrandy said:

Seriously, Toby was a rockstar in this episode.  He said exactly the right thing to Rebecca.   And I sort of like that he made pigs in a blanket for Miguel.  I'm still super skeptical about Miguel but it is nice that somebody takes a minute to think about him.

Not caring for either of them all that much, I have to say, Toby was actually likeable in this episode. Did he have the little spit curl? I thought it all just looked shaved when he got in the car at the end but couldn't tell because he head was in the shadows of the car and I don't remember from earlier in the show. And Miguel? I think when all is said and done, we will end up liking him, or at least understanding how he and Rebecca ended up together.

[sadiegirl1999]

Everyone is making such good points!

I wonder if the show has peaked already. I hope to really eat crow on that statement.

But I feel like the writers read too much of their own press. The show doesn't have to be all "cliffhanger, cliffhanger, cliffhanger" all the time. Sometimes...lots of times actually...the greatness of the show is in those quieter moments, like Kevin being Cyrano. Another gut punch moment? At the end, with Jack and Kate. Give us more of THAT.

The episode was just "meh" for me...there was too much going on: Kevin going back to the Manny, the whole family being there then ditching him, Kate singing, Rebecca being the anti-Jack, and then Beth and Randall?

THAT story line has GOT to go. She didn't want to, he did. Then she did and he didn't. Then "let's tell the girls RIGHT HERE". I get that this foster story line is to show Randall "failing" at something. But we all know damn well, this won't work out (I mean...are they REALLY going to throw *another* character at us?)

Like I said, the writers are using Dramatic License 101 and quite frankly, they're better than that.

[sigmaforce86]

9 hours ago, bybrandy said:

I don't think it is about wanting somebody abusive.  And I don't think Rebecca is trying to be abusive.  She's trying to help in a way that is incredibly belittling to somebody who doesn't have a whole lot of confidence.

My sister is a helper.  She's a big helper.  She loves to help.  She loves everybody so much that she just can't help but help.   And really, truly, it has taken me my entire life but I've finally worked out that she's not trying to hurt people when she helps... she just is so sure that she's helping that she doesn't care how it comes off to anybody else.

This, This, This.............I think a lot of people who think Kate is being sensitive don't totally get it; her reactions today are ingrained in her from how she grew up.  It's hard to be a kid and have every compliment or comment be a backhanded criticism.  Remember when Kate had appendicitis and Rebecca's first reaction was "you ate too many cookies" without even checking her for a fever or asking her questions about how she felt?  And when they both went to the gastric appointment and Rebecca was not only shocked to find out that Kate had taken anti-depressants but answered "No" when the Doctor asked about it before Kate could even say anything.  I don't think Rebecca's a horrible person but she's a little blind to how what she sees as helping came across to a child who may not have had the highest self-esteem to begin with.  If a parent does it once or twice it's not so bad but if every interaction is "well that was great but you could have...." it does have an effect; I think the show is being very true to life on this.  

I wish Keven and Beth had hugged but I don't think they have that close of an in-law relationship (yet).  It was nice to see them together though and that they both opened up and shared a little.  Kevin seemed to really care that Randell was having trouble with the adoption/foster decision.  I'm guessing the college story means they got closer after Jack died but drifted apart again after living on different coasts as adults.  I liked this episode a lot even though there was so much going on.  Maybe they're trying to set up a lot of future story lines so they pushed a lot of that set-up into the first two episodes to kick things off?  Don't know but since the writers have said they already had a multi-year plan set out at least we know wherever this is leading they're not winging it just to drag things along and stretch the show (which never works if past experience watching other serial type shows is any proof).

[Blackie]

Stereotypical, predictable, boring already....I don't know if I'll be able to stick it out this season.

[Suck It Trebek]

4 hours ago, CelticBlackCat said:

For once Toby did right by declaring his Team Kate Foreva stance

I wish Rebecca would have simply said, "So am I."