S01.E05: And the Winner Is... (The Oscars of 1963)

[Inquisitionist]

1 minute ago, SmithW6079 said:

I have a hard time with Catherine Zeta-Jones as Olivia de Havilland. Zeta-Jones just comes across as too big to be de Havilland, who just seems more petite.

De Havilland is listed as 5'4" at IMDb, compared to 5'3" for both Davis and Crawford.  CZJ and Sarandon are both listed as 5'7" with Lange clocking in at 5'8".

[psychoticstate]

This was an excellent episode. 

I appreciated the clip of the real Joan at the AA; she appeared much softer and prettier than the Lange version.  As much as I generally admire and like Lange, her Crawford seems much too hard.  While the real Joan could certainly be a ball breaker, deep down she was plagued with insecurities and the fear of being alone and not being accepted or loved. 

I am a JC apologist but I have sympathy and pity for both JC and Bette Davis here. JC didn't want to admit how very much Baby Jane and being nominated meant to her.  Not just personally but professionally as well.  She and Bette had that in common - - an Oscar nomination can help with roles but an Oscar win most certainly will.  And to set an Oscar record, as in Bette's case . . .  Sad all around for both of them and perhaps an additional insult to Bette was that she appeared to be the shoe-in.

OT for Joan and Bette but on topic with regard to Olivia - - I read an interview with her and an article about the so-called feud with her sister Joan.  Apparently the sisters did have falling outs over the years but they would also make up and be involved in each other's lives.  I think at the time of Joan Fontaine's death they were not speaking.  Tragic.   

[Deanie87]

11 hours ago, Pete Martell said:

When I saw some of Jessica's interviews she said she didn't have much time to do research on Joan and basically just read about all the horrible abuse Joan suffered as a girl and felt that this made her who she was. That's one of the problems with "playing" Joan - you either get a gorgon or you get a lost soul. The real Joan is something I don't think anyone else can ever capture, because she was buried so deep down. 

Entertainment Weekly did an interview with Lange and Sarandon before the premiere and Lange was kind of dismissive of Joan Crawford, which really bugged me.  She basically said that she never had any interest in her and mostly knew her from MD and so was surprised to find out about the plastic on the furniture, and her horrible childhood.  The interview (which of course I can't find now) really rubbed me the wrong way and, while I don't think that Lange's portrayal is unsympathetic, I sort of feel that it is more informed by the negative aspects of Joan, rather than any of the positive ones (such as how hard working she was in everything, and the absolute star charisma that she had even as an aging woman).  And while I don't need Lange to gush over the Old Hollywood stars, a little more respect would have been nice.  I realize that she was a part of the 70s movement that preferred more realistic and gritty acting, but these women were around nearly at the beginning of film medium that Lange and Sarandon made their living from, and they put up with studio system, and in some cases fought for more money and power, and that is worth a little respect, I think, even if Joan was more of a "moviestar" than actress.  Anyway, its a little ridiculous I know, but I am always suspicious of actors and actresses who know so little about all of the stuff that came before them.  If I can know it, they can know it :)

All that said, yeah, it was really difficult to sympathize with Joan in this episode.  I'm sure that it must have been humiliating to not be nominated for an Oscar when Bette was, but still.  In the end, that tiny moment in the spotlight only made her look worse in the long run.  I did like how sincerely sympathetic and deferential Page and Bancroft seemed to be toward her, and I really got a kick out of Joan's little "lessons" to the younger women.  

ETA - Ha, psychoticstate, I see that we were both posting similar things about Lange's portrayal!  Glad I"m not the only one who sees it that way!

Edited April 3, 2017 by Deanie87

[BingeyKohan]

Does anyone recall all the names Joan (and Hedda) dropped on the phone as they made their campaign calls? Off the top of my head I remember hearing Loretta (Young I presume) and Cary (I assumed Grant)... I recognized a few more in the moment but my memory is failing me.

[psychoticstate]

51 minutes ago, Deanie87 said:

Entertainment Weekly did an interview with Lange and Sarandon before the premiere and Lange was kind of dismissive of Joan Crawford, which really bugged me.  She basically said that she never had any interest in her and mostly knew her from MD and so was surprised to find out about the plastic on the furniture, and her horrible childhood.  The interview (which of course I can't find now) really rubbed me the wrong way and, while I don't think that Lange's portrayal is unsympathetic, I sort of feel that it is more informed by the negative aspects of Joan, rather than any of the positive ones (such as how hard working she was in everything, and the absolute star charisma that she had even as an aging woman).  And while I don't need Lange to gush over the Old Hollywood stars, a little more respect would have been nice.  I realize that she was a part of the 70s movement that preferred more realistic and gritty acting, but these women were around nearly at the beginning of film medium that Lange and Sarandon made their living from, and they put up with studio system, and in some cases fought for more money and power, and that is worth a little respect, I think, even if Joan was more of a "moviestar" than actress.  Anyway, its a little ridiculous I know, but I am always suspicious of actors and actresses who know so little about all of the stuff that came before them.  If I can know it, they can know it :)

All that said, yeah, it was really difficult to sympathize with Joan in this episode.  I'm sure that it must have been humiliating to not be nominated for an Oscar when Bette was, but still.  In the end, that tiny moment in the spotlight only made her look worse in the long run.  I did like how sincerely sympathetic and deferential Page and Bancroft seemed to be toward her, and I really got a kick out of Joan's little "lessons" to the younger women.  

ETA - Ha, psychoticstate, I see that we were both posting similar things about Lange's portrayal!  Glad I"m not the only one who sees it that way!

I liked Lange's portrayal in the first couple of episodes but it seems to be falling flat or one note now.  At least for me.

Hearing that she did very little or limited research on Joan makes me very disappointed in her.  I would think you'd want to explore all sides of her reported personality, the good and the bad. Just watching some of the JC interviews of the 1960s demonstrate her mannerisms, her voice inflections and show that she was much lighter, at least publicly, than Feud is giving us. 

I am 100% with you, @Deanie87.  (Great minds!)  How can someone in the movie biz not be familiar with Joan Crawford and Bette Davis as thespians?  These ladies helped to make the future careers of Lange and Sarandon possible.  Both of them fought hard to keep careers past the age of 35 and not disappear upon hitting that birthday, never to be heard from again or to reappear in their fifties or sixties to play dowager-type roles.  I have never been a particular fan of Greta Garbo's but I have immense respect for what she accomplished.  I would never dismiss her outright, even if her acting style or movies don't necessarily appeal to me the way a BD or JC film might.  

I also think respect is due for JC if for no other reason than she did become an actress solely with practice on movie sets. She wasn't classically trained and had zero experience when she arrived in Hollywood. She was definitely considered more of a movie star but seeing her in Mildred Pierce, Humoresque, Sudden Fear and Autumn Leaves shows that she can turn in a very nuanced, heartfelt performance without the MGM frills and glitter.  And yes, even Baby Jane, where I find her every bit as good as Bette. 

[meowmommy]

1 hour ago, BingeyKohan said:

Does anyone recall all the names Joan (and Hedda) dropped on the phone as they made their campaign calls? Off the top of my head I remember hearing Loretta (Young I presume) and Cary (I assumed Grant)... I recognized a few more in the moment but my memory is failing me.

Charlton Heston.

[voiceover]

12 hours ago, methodwriter85 said:

 

I now kind of want Meryl Streep to show up as Katherine Hepburn.

Yeeuuwww, don't put any ideas in her head.  Plus, IIRC, Hepburn didn't like Streep, at least as an actress.

[annzeepark914]

Last night's episode was good.  But something that has bugged me all along is--how could Bette Davis believe her acting in WHTBJ, a horror picture, would beat Anne Bancroft's acting in such a serious, moving, powerful movie?  I'm a fan of BD but geez...what was she thinking to expect she could top an actress who teaches a deaf/blind young child to communicate?  Re: Joan Crawford's plotting and conniving her evening at the Oscars?  She was a sick-o.  Heck, when she was whining to Hedda about how much she needed to be appreciated, at one point Hopper pulls back and gives her a WTH look. 

When I saw John Rubenstein's name in the credits, I looked up the cast of Feud and saw he played George Cukor.  Good grief--that was handsome John from Crazy Like A Fox and Family? Some of us are getting on (I had a slight crush on him and his curls!)

[enoughcats]

3 minutes ago, annzeepark914 said:

how could Bette Davis believe her acting in WHTBJ, a horror picture, would beat Anne Bancroft's acting in such a serious, moving, powerful movie?

Could it have been that she dismissed Anne Bancroft as 'just a stage actress' bringing a stage show to the silver screen?  

At one time, there were theater people and then there were movie people.  There's a throw away line in Crawford's The Dancing Lady where Clark Gable complains "All the talented people are going to Hollywood" which is a dig at those who remained behind on Broadway.

I remember seeing Katherine Hepburn on Broadway in Coco and it was such a big thing that a big time MOVIE actress was on Broadway (and I loved her in it.)

That dicotomy morphed to "there were movie people" and "there were television people".  

[psychoticstate]

1 hour ago, annzeepark914 said:

 I'm a fan of BD but geez...what was she thinking to expect she could top an actress who teaches a deaf/blind young child to communicate?  

@enoughcats gave an excellent possible explanation.  I also think it's likely that BD felt she was "due" the award.  Not just for her performance in Baby Jane but also for her years of acting cred and for the slight on All about Eve.  BD always felt that she won the Oscar for Dangerous in 1935 because she was overlooked for the year before.  

Don't forget too that BD seemed to be the favorite to win - - everyone loves a "comeback" story. 

[vb68]

1 hour ago, enoughcats said:

Could it have been that she dismissed Anne Bancroft as 'just a stage actress' bringing a stage show to the silver screen?  

I think they were implying that somewhat...with Joan bringing up how Shirley MacLaine got the film role in Two For The Seesaw that Anne played on stage.

I was also fairly surprised that Lee Remick was just dismissed.  I always thought her work in Days of Wine and Roses was always considered brilliant.

Edited April 3, 2017 by vb68

[Growsonwalls]

Also WEHTBJ historically is the type of movie that nets Oscar awards for acting. Hollywood loves "transformations" of its beloved actresses -- whether they gain 40 pounds, wear 40 pounds of makeup, adopt an accent, etc. Plus Bette being a veteran and making a "comeback" at the washed up, wrinkly old prune age of 53 (that was sarcastic, FYI) -- I don't think Bette was wrong in assuming that her chances were great. 

[ThatsDarling]

Anne Bancroft not attending the Academy Awards so she wouldn't have to miss any performances of her Broadway show was a classy move. Up until the 1980s, it was pretty common for actors nominated for Oscars to miss the ceremony if they were appearing onstage elsewhere. I know Judy Holliday and Ellen Burstyn also missed their Best Actress wins for this reason. They didn't want to disappoint people who had paid in advance to see them in their plays.

These days, it's extremely rare for an Oscar hopeful to miss the ceremony for any reason--even the precursor ceremonies. A few years ago, an actress appearing on Broadway took time off of her show to attend the Critics Choice Awards and the Golden Globes, and then the show closed early so she could go to the BAFTAs. 

The idea of prioritizing the work over the reward just doesn't seem to be as popular anymore. 

[peacheslatour]

Quote

nobody looks like Gregory Peck.

In my book it goes: Gregory Peck

                                   Cary Grant

                                   Clark Gable

[Snappy]

I watched the whole thing, but sadly I kept thinking, "Is it over yet?" This episode seemed much slower than it needed to be. For the record, Team Bette.

[hypnotoad]

Quote

I came into this of little knowledge of what went down at the Oscars back then, but WOW. Joan Crwaford was a miserable human being. Manipulating her way into accepting another actress' Oscar just to spite Bette? What was the point?

It seemed very short sighted to me. An Oscar win tends to help the movie make a bit more money - wouldn't that have been a good thing no matter who won? Yeah I know Joan was pissed because Bette got the nomination and not her, Boo hoo. For gosh sakes, if she wanted the showier part she could have had it since the movie was her idea. The thing is she would have never committed to the crazy the way Bette did.

Quote

I am astonished at the amount of balls Joan had to pull off such an iconic stunt.  Joan found a way to  pull Bette down a peg, get under her skin and  grab all the spotlight that night!

I don't think she pulled Bette down a peg, I think she made herself look small and desperate.

She planned this whole Oscar thing for a chance to accept a statue that wasn't hers. Awesome?!?

I am not a Joan Crawford fan at all. Even her early movies do nothing for me.  However, I had no idea she did this at the Oscars. What a small, pathetic woman. I mean seriously. Gross.

Have always been and will always be Team Bette.

[mochamajesty]

This is going to sound petty and shallow..

That Oscar gown did Lange's figure no favors.  She does not look like the sexpot that bedded half of Hollywood.  HD is not helping. 

Joan to George Cukor: "How do I look?"

Me: "Like Cruella DeVille."

When Cukor said, "You are bigger than this", I laughed out loud. Yes, I am going to hell.

Susan, on the other hand, looks natural.

My grandma had a housecoat like Anne Bancroft's. 

Edited April 4, 2017 by mochamajesty

[voiceover]

Still reeling from this ep.

Part of the problem is that it all feels so wretchedly personal.  I'm currently playing in that 50-something, Don't-look-back-something-younger's-gaining, ballpark.

Most of it is that it's just a hideous moment in the History of Women to revisit.  Sure: Jack Warner, macho dickhead=check.  The over-40-Hollywood actress wall=check.  The unbelievably brutal hand you got dealt as a child = check.

But Joan was a grownup, and by then, it's time to own your actions.  Bette's the one who was out there doing the pr'ing; that had to have kept her in the forefront of the voters' minds; thus the nomination.  Ohhhh Joan!  You hideous bitch.  Hope it was worth it.

And Hedda?  Go fuck yourself. 

[blaase]

50 minutes ago, hypnotoad said:

It seemed very short sighted to me. An Oscar win tends to help the movie make a bit more money - wouldn't that have been a good thing no matter who won? Yeah I know Joan was pissed because Bette got the nomination and not her, Boo hoo. For gosh sakes, if she wanted the showier part she could have had it since the movie was her idea. The thing is she would have never committed to the crazy the way Bette did.

I don't think she pulled Bette down a peg, I think she made herself look small and desperate.

She planned this whole Oscar thing for a chance to accept a statue that wasn't hers. Awesome?!?

I am not a Joan Crawford fan at all. Even her early movies do nothing for me.  However, I had no idea she did this at the Oscars. What a small, pathetic woman. I mean seriously. Gross.

Have always been and will always be Team Bette.

Bette thought she had the oscar in the bag!.

Joan knew going into the filming of WHTBJ that Bette had more talent and the juicier role, she knew this could happen, she didn't expect Bette to be so smug about it though.

[psychoticstate]

1 hour ago, Growsonwalls said:

Also WEHTBJ historically is the type of movie that nets Oscar awards for acting. Hollywood loves "transformations" of its beloved actresses -- whether they gain 40 pounds, wear 40 pounds of makeup, adopt an accent, etc. Plus Bette being a veteran and making a "comeback" at the washed up, wrinkly old prune age of 53 (that was sarcastic, FYI) -- I don't think Bette was wrong in assuming that her chances were great. 

No, she wasn't wrong at all.  However, Baby Jane was considered a horror film and horror very rarely scores during award season.  Especially back in 1962-1963. 

I think Bette gave a great performance, with shades of real Bette slipping in.  I think Joan gave a great performance, with shades of real Joan slipping in.  Compared to the other nominees should either of them have picked up the prize for their roles in this film?  No.  

[txhorns79]

Quote

I don't think she pulled Bette down a peg, I think she made herself look small and desperate.

Yeah, Joan is the one who comes off pathetic here.  I did love the scene right after Joan accepted the award.  It was all in Sarandon's face.  I know it never happened, but I wouldn't have been shocked if she had grabbed the Oscar out of Joan's hand and used it to bash Joan's skull in right there. 

Also, the actress who played Anne Bancroft was stunning. 

[hypnotoad]

Quote

Bette thought she had the oscar in the bag!.

So? Joan plotted like a child to accept an award that wasn't hers. That's a ... win for her somehow? I don't see how. She came across as pathetic to me.

And apparently Bette wasn't the only one who thought she had the Oscar in the bag. Joan must have thought so too or she wouldn't have had to scheme to help it not happen.

[Growsonwalls]

Odd to think that 1962 was such a strong film year that many of the best performances didn't even get recognized. Manchurian Candidate for instance was almost totally snubbed, as was Lolita. And IMO Patty Duke didn't even give the most remarkable child performance that year -- that honor went to Mary Badham who was/is perfection as Scout Finch. I think Bette's real problem was the year WEHTBJ came out. That was a strong strong field in every category. 

[blaase]

28 minutes ago, psychoticstate said:

No, she wasn't wrong at all.  However, Baby Jane was considered a horror film and horror very rarely scores during award season.  Especially back in 1962-1963. 

I think Bette gave a great performance, with shades of real Bette slipping in.  I think Joan gave a great performance, with shades of real Joan slipping in.  Compared to the other nominees should either of them have picked up the prize for their roles in this film?  No.  

This show has shown that Joan really disliked Bette's cockiness so I can see why she wanted to take her down a peg.

A child would not come up with such a brilliant scheme, Joan was on that stage and not Bette who was convinced she would be. 

Just now, Growsonwalls said:

Odd to think that 1962 was such a strong film year that many of the best performances didn't even get recognized. Manchurian Candidate for instance was almost totally snubbed, as was Lolita. And IMO Patty Duke didn't even give the most remarkable child performance that year -- that honor went to Mary Badham who was/is perfection as Scout Finch. I think Bette's real problem was the year WEHTBJ came out. That was a strong strong field in every category. 

Bad luck for Bette, the previous time she was nominated was also a unusually strong year.

[Pete Martell]

1 hour ago, mochamajesty said:

This is going to sound petty and shallow..

That Oscar gown did Lange's figure no favors.  She does not look like the sexpot that bedded half of Hollywood.  HD is not helping. 

Joan to George Cukor: "How do I look?"

Me: "Like Cruella DeVille."

When Cukor said, "You are bigger than this", I laughed out loud. Yes, I am going to hell.

Susan, on the other hand, looks natural.

My grandma had a housecoat like Anne Bancroft's. 

I think Murphy said that Lange pulled her back out wearing that dress. He probably wanted to recreate the image to the point where what the actual actors involved might look like became secondary. 

7 hours ago, SmithW6079 said:

I need to use this line somewhere, somehow. Brilliant.

I have a hard time with Catherine Zeta-Jones as Olivia de Havilland. Zeta-Jones just comes across as too big to be de Havilland, who just seems more petite.

On the surface it should be easy to cast an Olivia but I think they would have been better off casting a relative unknown. It's not the height that gets to me with CZJ as much as she's just very generic. Olivia had an iron core - she was very very tough. She fought like hell and is one of the main reasons that the studio system died, even as television and changing times were going to do it anyway. I'm not sure if you get that here. Her work, while not bad, comes across like something you might find in a Hallmark film. She also looks a bit more like Debbie Reynolds than Olivia to me, for some reason. The hair, probably.

Edited April 4, 2017 by Pete Martell

[Growsonwalls]

Olivia is a very animated speaker. She had a twinkle in her eye and was/is a great storyteller. Here is Olivia talking about her contract negotiations at Warner Brothers.

CZJ seems to be playing some grande dame version of Olivia, with impeccable manners and an international accent. The real Olivia is so much spicier and animated.

[Pete Martell]

7 hours ago, Deanie87 said:

Entertainment Weekly did an interview with Lange and Sarandon before the premiere and Lange was kind of dismissive of Joan Crawford, which really bugged me.  She basically said that she never had any interest in her and mostly knew her from MD and so was surprised to find out about the plastic on the furniture, and her horrible childhood.  The interview (which of course I can't find now) really rubbed me the wrong way and, while I don't think that Lange's portrayal is unsympathetic, I sort of feel that it is more informed by the negative aspects of Joan, rather than any of the positive ones (such as how hard working she was in everything, and the absolute star charisma that she had even as an aging woman).  And while I don't need Lange to gush over the Old Hollywood stars, a little more respect would have been nice.  I realize that she was a part of the 70s movement that preferred more realistic and gritty acting, but these women were around nearly at the beginning of film medium that Lange and Sarandon made their living from, and they put up with studio system, and in some cases fought for more money and power, and that is worth a little respect, I think, even if Joan was more of a "moviestar" than actress.  Anyway, its a little ridiculous I know, but I am always suspicious of actors and actresses who know so little about all of the stuff that came before them.  If I can know it, they can know it :)

That's what I wish this type of project would possibly suggest to viewers - that in many ways both Joan and Bette would have been more suited to what people see as modern films (modern from the '60s on) as they both broke the mold in their own ways and both changed a lot of rules. They held on for a long time, even as other more demure women, popular women, more acceptable "faces" of movies, faded away through choice or lack of options. Bette would have killed a lot of the parts that younger actresses got (and in the '60s in particular a lot of the younger actresses couldn't really handle), and Joan was, well, we can't ignore the terrible things she did, but her ability to shape her public image to such a heavy degree, on her own terms, not the terms of the studio system, while still playing within the rules of that system - it's not far off from what a lot of stars now do (in acting and also in music and the reality TV/paparazzi trash circuit)...it's just more openly camp and absurd. 

There is some focus on how unfair the system was to them both, but I wish we did get a bit more on what made them who they were, especially with Joan, because, as you said, I don't think the performance is all that well-informed. It's not supposed to be realistic, I realize, but there's no way that someone who is just cold and hard and then a sad panda when alone would have lasted that long in Hollywood. There was more of a vulnerability and strange sort of charm and gutsiness in her public appearances that isn't here. Ironically enough it's a lot like what Jessica herself had in her earlier years as an actress. 

[methodwriter85]

Is CZJ even capable of NOT doing her continental accent? I feel like her voice never changes in anything she does. It's like Audrey Hepburn.

[meowmommy]

1 hour ago, mochamajesty said:

That Oscar gown did Lange's figure no favors.  She does not look like the sexpot that bedded half of Hollywood.  HD is not helping. 

I'm not sure of the antecedent--are you talking about Jessica Lange or Joan Crawford?  Joan Crawford in the early 1930s was absolutely stunning, but even by the time of Mildred Pierce I thought her looks had become quite coarse, so 20 years more didn't improve.  As for Jessica Lange, I don't know who would expect a 70 year old to look like a sexpot, or to try to look like one.

1 hour ago, voiceover said:

Part of the problem is that it all feels so wretchedly personal.  I'm currently playing in that 50-something, Don't-look-back-something-younger's-gaining, ballpark.

I am several years older than the real Bette and Joan would have been at the time of WHTBJ and I look several years younger than either of them.  I think the smoking and drinking took a huge toll on their looks.  I don't know if actresses realized then (or even now, really) that staying away from drinking and smoking will preserve them a lot better than Botox ever will.  This, of course, doesn't address whether looks should have mattered, then or now.

45 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

CZJ seems to be playing some grande dame version of Olivia, with impeccable manners and an international accent. The real Olivia is so much spicier and animated.

I keep watching her and trying to imagine the real Olivia and I just couldn't.  Even when she mentioned playing Melanie Wilkes, I could never see the actress in front of me as Melanie.

5 hours ago, enoughcats said:

That dicotomy morphed to "there were movie people" and "there were television people".  

That's true.  Only a few years ago you would never have gotten Susan Sarandon or Jessica Lange to do a TV mini-series.  It would have been beneath them.

[Threnners]

Joan was clearly the master of petty.  

[movingtargetgal]

4 hours ago, hypnotoad said:

It seemed very short sighted to me. An Oscar win tends to help the movie make a bit more money - wouldn't that have been a good thing no matter who won? Yeah I know Joan was pissed because Bette got the nomination and not her, Boo hoo. For gosh sakes, if she wanted the showier part she could have had it since the movie was her idea. The thing is she would have never committed to the crazy the way Bette did.

Had Joan taken the Baby Jane role the picture would not have become a hit and Joan still would not have earned a nomination.  Joan was too vain to fully commit to the character's crazy, especially when it came to her physical appearance.  Joan would never have allowed herself to look so demented.  Even in Blanche's death scene she kept pulling back her face between takes to make herself look younger.  They had to reshoot the scene because she kept getting better looking as she laid there "dying".  Bette was not afraid of looking awful if that was the right choice for the character.  Davis' commitment to the role is what earned her the nomination.  Bette was an actress who became a moviestar and Joan was "just" a moviestar.

Edited April 4, 2017 by movingtargetgal

[AuntiePam]

CZJ doesn't work for me as Olivia because of the voice -- Olivia's voice had a silky smooth quality -- the kind of voice you'd use to soothe a baby.  She spoke slowly -- more slowly than Jones -- and Jones' voice is higher than Olivia's.  (Olivia would have been great at audiobooks.)

(As much as I liked Bette-Joan, I don't plan to watch Charles-Diana.  The story's too well known and too tragic.  Apologies if this comment should have been in another thread.)

[JohnnyGilda]

According to the very handy Inside Oscar:

Bette was backstage for Best Actress because she had just presented the writing awards. But she wasn't waiting in the wings for her category; she and Olivia were watching alone in Sinatra's dressing room, holding hands, when Schell announced the winner. True friends.

Joan was waiting in the wings, and she did stamp out her cigarette on her way onstage. She later insisted on hand-delivering the award to Bancroft in New York.

Olivia's Dior gown arrived on a jet from Paris mere moments before the ceremony.

Joan's escort wasn't Cukor, it was Cesar Romero. Now why didn't we see that?

Otherwise, smashing.

[enoughcats]

10 hours ago, Marmiarmo said:

10 hours ago, Marmiarmo said:

More Here

 

In Marimiarmo's almost overlooked link, which is an excellent read in the old fashioned way of painting vivid pictures with words, one after another, is a story about how Olivia and Bette Davis became such good friends.  

The story of that friendship and its origins, if you are interested, should be read before rewatching this episode.  

[LilaFowler]

5 hours ago, ThatsDarling said:

Anne Bancroft not attending the Academy Awards so she wouldn't have to miss any performances of her Broadway show was a classy move. Up until the 1980s, it was pretty common for actors nominated for Oscars to miss the ceremony if they were appearing onstage elsewhere. I know Judy Holliday and Ellen Burstyn also missed their Best Actress wins for this reason. They didn't want to disappoint people who had paid in advance to see them in their plays.

These days, it's extremely rare for an Oscar hopeful to miss the ceremony for any reason--even the precursor ceremonies. A few years ago, an actress appearing on Broadway took time off of her show to attend the Critics Choice Awards and the Golden Globes, and then the show closed early so she could go to the BAFTAs. 

The idea of prioritizing the work over the reward just doesn't seem to be as popular anymore. 

Jessica Chastain, The Heiress?  Just a guess.

I watched this episode twice -- that's how much I loved it. The actress who played Anne Bancroft did an amazing job.  I think it helps that she's not someone that I recognize. I can't see past CZJ and (the great) Kathy Bates in their roles.

Edited April 4, 2017 by LilaFowler

[TheOtherOne]

6 hours ago, vb68 said:

I was also fairly surprised that Lee Remick was just dismissed.  I always thought her work in Days of Wine and Roses was always considered brilliant.

Especially by Davis herself, who was quoted as saying, "Miss Remick's performance astonished me, and I thought, if I lose the Oscar, it will be to her." (Apologies if they covered it in the episode, but if they did, I missed it.)

[caracas1914]

Considering that Patty Duke Austin won best supporting actress, I don't think it's outside the possibility that Anne Bancroft was going to win Best Actress regardless.

[SWLinPHX]

17 hours ago, Mindthinkr said:

When I saw Joan sit Ms Bancroft's Oscar on her nightstand next to hers I noticed that it appeared to be already engraved. I might have gotten them mixed up but I thought they don't engrave them until after the ceremony as to prevent leaks of who the winners might be. 

Academy Awards are not engraved when handed out on stage, but are soon after engraved -- at the governor's ball -- before the winners take them home.

[Mindthinkr]

10 minutes ago, SWLinPHX said:

Academy Awards are not engraved when handed out on stage, but are soon after engraved -- at the governor's ball -- before the winners take them home.

Ah ha. Thank you for clearing that up for me. I wondered that it was an oopsie but evidently not. 

[Josette]

I was glad it turned out that Geraldine Page knew what Joan was up to, but it's hard to believe Joan's approach would have been as depicted here. Geraldine Page had been to the Academy Awards just the previous year and knew what it entailed.  Checking the link provided above, it would seem Joan was more straight-forward.

[darkestboy]

I loved this episode. Joan really was a sore loser in every way, huh?

The way she intimidated Geraldine Page (nice work from Sarah Paulson again) and accepting the award on behalf of Anne Bancroft to get at Bette though. Victory wise, pretty hollow though.

I quite liked Serinda Swan as Bancroft, thought she did excellent even if she only had little screen time.

Liked that we got more of Olivia de Havilland in this one too.

I felt for Bette in this episode too, 8/10

[Guest]

The show seems to be trying too hard to convince me that Joan = bad and Bette = good, so it isn't working for me.  I thought there would be more nuance.  Since I dislike the way the show is depicting it, I found myself rooting for Joan's plan to work.  I think there should be more balance portrayed on both sides, personally.

[txhorns79]

Quote

The show seems to be trying too hard to convince me that Joan = bad and Bette = good, so it isn't working for me.  I thought there would be more nuance.  Since I dislike the way the show is depicting it, I found myself rooting for Joan's plan to work.  I think there should be more balance portrayed on both sides, personally.

I think they've shown nuance.  For example, we saw Bette being kind of a crappy parent to her daughter, and there are certainly times when she's been hostile towards Joan.  This particular episode is just about a situation where there wasn't much nuance to be had.  Joan acted really badly, and there's no equal action by Bette to even things out. 

[Lady Iris]

The time and energy spent plotting to spite another person just so you can feel victorious and relevant is just beyond my grasp as a human being. You reap what you sow and after that JC deserved to go home alone. Completely pitiful.

[asabovesobelow]

My favorite line of the episode was "You're bigger than this." Then Joan, "No, I'm not."

Beneath the petty, the spite, the jealousy...somewhere deep inside, Joan was self-aware. The fact that that she went through with it was abhorrent and heartbreaking at the same time.

[Joimiaroxeu]

Joan's caftans were fantastic. All those gorgeous jewel tones.

Was Geraldine Page's role in Sweet Bird of Youth really based on Joan or was Joan just being her usual "it's all about me?" self? High-strung show pony indeed.

The way Joan went out of her way to manipulate Anne Bancroft and Geraldine Page was diabolical. She made passive-aggression an art form. Anne was amazingly classy and generous toward her despite knowing that she was being worked by Joan.

I loved how Joan was all "who gon check me, boo?" when told she couldn't have a party in the green room. That woman had bigger balls than any man in Hollywood.

Poor Bette. How sad for her to think the rest of her career depended on winning that award. I get the idea of acknowledging excellent performances but it also seems so subjective and somewhat cruel, especially to older women. Katherine Hepburn probably had the right idea to refuse to play the game--or at least act like she was refusing.

Quote

Olivia's Dior gown arrived on a jet from Paris mere moments before the ceremony.

That was a nice dress but it didn't read "1963" to me. A rare misstep in a series that has otherwise on point fashion-wise. (I found a photo of the actual dress. Seems to me they adjusted the design to make it more suitable for CVJ's slimmer body relative to Olivia de Havilland's.)

Edited April 4, 2017 by Joimiaroxeu

[abovethetitle]

11 hours ago, LilaFowler said:

Jessica Chastain, The Heiress?  Just a guess.

Saoirse Ronan in "The Crucible," the year she was Oscar nominated for "Brooklyn," IIRC.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Feud: Bette And Joan Takes Oscar Buzz To The Next Level

It's the 1963 (ahem) Academy Awards, and Joan Crawford has a crazy plan to snatch Bette Davis's Oscar. Spoiler: it totally worked.

[A Boston Gal]

23 hours ago, AuntiePam said:

 

I do wish that we could have seen actual footage of the red carpet and the actors -- nobody looks like Gregory Peck.  That man was gorgeous.  The Maximilian Schell stand-in came close to the real thing though. 

 

100% agree - I'm only a very casual Maximilan Schell watcher, and even I thought the actor bore a good resemblance.  And, of course, you are right - no one alive is as handsome as Gregory Peck was in his prime. Hell, even in his old age! ;)

[Unclejosh]

Funny how people have differing opinions on what constitutes handsome or good looking. I never thought Gregory Peck was an "off the charts gorgeous" looking man nor Clark Gable or most of the leading men of that era for that matter. They just look like average decent looking dudes to me.  

Edited April 4, 2017 by Unclejosh