S01.E03: Living The Dream

[WhosThatGirl]

4 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

Yeah, this is my impression.  He can't stand the idea that Celeste has anything in her life that doesn't involve him, and that is why he gets angry each time there is some minor event in which he is not included.  I mean, look at the scene, he is strangling her over not being included on some Disney on Ice trip and/or child's birthday party.  Even if she was purposefully excluding him just to be a jerk, his reaction is to physically assault her.  That's just nuts.       

This. I think like someone else said, Perry probably would have gotten mad if she said to him "oh yes, we are going to Disney on ice tomorrow with Madealine and some other parents and kids ", I can totally see Perry going "excuse me? Why did you make plans for us without informing me? Maybe I had something else planned for us as A FAMILY!" 

I hope Ed isn't lusting after Abigail. I really do. I hope his odd look is that he was trying to avoid tension with her based on what's going on with him/Nathan/Madealine/Bonnie. Abigail knew what had happened and for some reason she has made a choice at least in my viewing eyes to pick the side of Bonnie and her dad. This may not be the case. It may just be as simple as she wants free regin at a free reign parent household but she also made comments to Ed about not understanding why Madealine couldn't be nice to Bonnie. So I think Abigail has made a choice. 

[mochamajesty]

The hosts at Afterbuzz thought that there was inappropriate behavior going on betweeEric and Abigail, citing Abigail 's suddenly poor grades and something else I cannot remember. 

Then again they missed Perry's manipulation of the therapist so grain of salt and all that. 

[dd21dd21]

I'm going to roll my eyes so hard when Ziggie's father turns out to be Perry

(I mean they wouldn't have shown us Jane's encounter with the man in such detail WHILE excluding his face if it wasn't somebody we know) and I've always been told the most likely answer is usually the correct one LOL

and Perry........He had every right to be upset about the first day of school incident and asking her to make sure the kids stay away from Ziggie (both are understandable) but dude.....

and im 100% sure Abagail and Adam Scott's character (forgot his name) are getting freaky behind Madeline's back

-birth control (this show is only 7 episodes, they showed that for a reason)

-the 2 scenes of both of them staring at each other

-Adam Scott mentioned Madeline isn't interested in sex

-that would be Madeline's big plot ( so worried about the asshole father/zoe kravitz, the stepdad ended up getting "close" with the daughter)

Edited March 8, 2017 by dd21dd21

[ElectricBoogaloo]

OF COURSE Gordon is staring at himself in the mirror while fucking his wife in his private bathroom at work.

5 hours ago, Razzberry said:

@stillshimpy - FYI that first quote in your post wasn't from me. I was quoting what someone else said earlier!

[nara]

I think that Renata and Madeline were the only ones referred to in past tense by the chorus. Did anyone else notice that? Perhaps that's an indication of who died.

[Llywela]

39 minutes ago, nara said:

I think that Renata and Madeline were the only ones referred to in past tense by the chorus. Did anyone else notice that? Perhaps that's an indication of who died.

I have an idea a couple of the men have been referred to in past tense as well in the police interviews - I thought Gordon was in this episode, and maybe Perry in a previous episode? Or maybe I'm misremembering.

[Giesela]

Don't know why but I'm not the the Ed Abigal wagon.

Read an interview with the Ed actor, he says things like

everyone has secrets etc.  So Ed may have a secret or a twist

but I just don't think that; it.  Or can they even get to every characters

secret from the book in 7 episodes?  

Edited March 8, 2017 by Giesela

[MV007]

17 hours ago, scrb said:

I hope Ed and Abigail aren't a thing.  I'd prefer not every relationship be off the rails dysfunctional.  

[teddysmom]

Quote

Don't know why but I'm not the the Ed Abigal wagon.

That's interesting! I re watched last night and the looks they were giving each other made me think something was up. But then I thought, she wouldn't be that chatty with him if he was molesting her, she'd avoid him.  Unless she came on to him.

Revise my thoughts on Saxon Banks image, don't think it's one of the husbands. 

Note to self: watch show when you're fully awake,use CC. 

[hoodooznoodooz]

When I look at that close-up of Ed, I don't see lust. 

I forgot that Perry forbade Celeste to allow the twins to spend time with Ziggy.  Does he know that Ziggy went to Disney on Ice with the twins? Can you imagine if that came up, in addition to him finding out that Celeste made these birthday party/DOI decisions without consulting him?

[humbleopinion]

At first glance, I thought why is Celeste on Ed's deck taking pictures then realized it was Abigail...

Not on the Stepdad Lust Bandwagon... thinking the actor trying to portray the realization of his character seeing that Abigail has fully crossed the threshold of not being a girl anymore but is a woman.

[teddysmom]

Quote

When I look at that close-up of Ed, I don't see lust. 

I think what made me wonder if there is something, and maybe not step dad lust at all,  was that they lingered on the two of them looking at each other, and knowing how that's usually a tell that it's something to pay attention to for later on.   

[stillshimpy]

Just now, ElectricBoogaloo said:

stillshimpy - FYI that first quote in your post wasn't from me. I was quoting what someone else said earlier!

Sorry about that,  I was actually just using the quote function.  I think I just have some kind of hyper-specific quote box curse.  I managed to remove the name at least and nothing in the room with me is on fire, so I'll call that a win.  

Also, here's part of why I hope Ed isn't lusting after Abigail: that would literally make every guy in this story some form of complete jackass and he'd be the third "well, that's wrong on a pretty much psychotic level" between Perry (the worst), Ziggy's father, whoever he may be is probably the actual worst but of the guys we currently know, Perry is winning that award.  Then we have family abandonment specialist Nathan with his inappropriately young wife who is embodying a few cliches of his own.  If Ed is molesting Abigail then that would leave only Gordon as anything resembling a not-some-form-of-male-cliche character.  

They could be going there but that's an awful lot of monstrous men with no one who has decent intent.  When Gordon's your only shot at "well, at least they gave dudes a chance in this story" the tale lacks balance.  They've been so good about having balance in the other characters, I hope they aren't just bowling with cliches for the men.   I do agree that the shot was a little weird as a setup for that exchange but I think it had to do with continuing to treat the view of the ocean as a presence within the narrative.  Lots of people staring at the sea.   I'm prepared to be wrong but I hope I'm not.  Might be because I just like Adam Scott and I immediately hesitate for a moment because I've kind of wondered how he ended up in this show, how he ended up reading for the part and I realize, he played a high school teacher who was sleeping with teenagers on Veronic Mars years ago, so maybe that's how the part crossed his path?  I hope not.  

I think that he's just supposed to have been wondering why she was staring at the sea with a decidedly pensive look on her face but every time the actor playing Abigail has an exchange with anyone it kind of comes off as a bit loaded.   I think her character is just there as a catalyst for nearly every character she interacts with is all.  She's the truth-teller, the all-seer, the super astute adolescent that people are always startled to realize has very clear and often adult insights into who they all are.  

Edited March 8, 2017 by stillshimpy

[teddysmom]

Quote

Might be because I just like Adam Scott and I immediately hesitate for a moment because I've kind of wondered how he ended up in this show, how he ended up reading for the part and I realize, he played a high school teacher who was sleeping with teenagers on Veronic Mars years ago, so maybe that's how the part crossed his path? 

I thought the same thing! Like him so much, and how did he get this role?  

The other thing that made me wonder what 's going on is her deciding to move out.  

[archer1267]

Quote

Last week I didn't see Ed as a problem, but I'm beginning to think there may be something to his lusting after Abby.   Especially since they cut to this scene immediately after hearing "Some of the men were staring.  I saw erections."  Yay or nay?

Well, after looking at those screenshots...one possible alternate explanation is he was doing something on his computer that he didn't want her to see, and was trying to gauge how long she might be on her call outside? Maybe dating sites, since he's referred to Madeline not being that interested in sex for a while?

Maybe I'm wishing that to be case instead of lust.

[riverheightsnancy]

28 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I have a feeling given we also got a long shot of Maddy looking into the distance all pensive and sad this ep, that it was just Ed contemplating the issue of Abigail moving out and how that will affect Maddy and the rest of them by extension.  But I think we're totally supposed to wonder if there's something inappropriate there, too.  

Yeah, I agree with this. I cannot remember how long he has been her "dad", but perhaps he wants to say something, but doesn't want to overstep. There could be some regret or sadness there. It did not look like lust to me. Maybe he suspects that she is doing something behind Maddie's back, but doesn't want to confront or say anything?

[Mabinogia]

29 minutes ago, riverheightsnancy said:

There could be some regret or sadness there. It did not look like lust to me.

I saw something more like regret or sadness. Certainly didn't see lust, but it was a very pointed shot so it has to mean something.  I'm not sure what it was, but if it was supposed to be lust, then Adam isn't as good an actor as I thought.

I can't remember, was that scene before or after they all knew Abby was moving out? Because it could be him wishing she'd stay because then he'd have a buffer in dealing with Maddie, or him thinking she's smart for leaving and wishing on some level that he could too. It just seemed more wistful/sadish than him wanting a piece of that. Hell, it could even have been that at that moment she reminded him of the Maddie he married. Maybe she wasn't quite as tightly wound back then. I really hope it wasn't lust, not just because it would be nice to have one man in town not be terrible but also because I want to believe Adam Scott can pull off lust if need be and he did not do it here.

[lmsweb]

Chloe is 6, so Maddie and Ed have been together at least 7 years, probably more. I didn't see it as lust at all. I think Ed loves Abby since he's had a hand in raising her, but is really trying not to interfere with the Abby/Maddy/Ed dynamic as they sort things out. His look struck me as a sort of bemused, "I'm not sure what else I can or should be doing about this right now".  My own daughter is 16 and a lot of the behaviour from Abby is pretty spot on.

[Petunia13]

Perry is probably the prettiest in the group. Those lashes, lips, and cheekbones are bae. 

[stillshimpy]

Just now, Mabinogia said:

I can't remember, was that scene before or after they all knew Abby was moving out?

I think it is before, but I'm just working strictly from memory.  Perhaps we're supposed to view that time as her decision-making time? Or evidence that she is feeling stressed out in that house because of her mom.  The other thing that occurs to me is that it is what we have seen Madeline doing, again, almost as a character trait so perhaps Ed was just struck by the similarity?   I agree, my inclination is that Ed is just a good guy and a good stepdad.   I didn't get a sexual vibe I got a slightly wary vibe from Ed.  More of an "What's she doing out there?  She looks one crucial inch from dressing all in black, wearing eyeliner up to her eyebrows and self-injury" because she really did have an oddly intense energy to her but that is actually just the way I'd describe the character from the first seconds.  

Edited March 8, 2017 by stillshimpy

[Juliegirlj]

I wanted to smack Abby for using the guidance counselor to hurt her mother. Madeline is a strong personality but is approachable and Abby is far from a delicate flower too scared to discuss living with her dad. I find her very manipulative ( like her mama), and wonder IF Abby tried To seduce  Ed-perhaps to hurt Maddie? That did not look like a lustful gaze that Ed had on his face-more like apprehension. 

[Razzberry]

I agree that the lingering look itself didn't come off as lustful.  It was pretty neutral, and could have been anything.  But its placement along with Abby's plummeting grades and wish to move out makes me wonder.

[film noire]

On 3/6/2017 at 6:34 PM, scrb said:

Seems like those mothers, if they're around the same age of the actresses playing them, would be too young to be into Fleetwood Mac.  Except maybe for Celeste.

I thought the choice was perfect because it's a band that would've been playing in the background of their life for decades. Their parents would've listened to the album when they were kids, "Don't Stop" was everywhere during the Clinton campaign in '92,  the live version of "Landslide" was a Grammy winner/chart topper in the late nineties, they would've heard several covers  (Hole, the Kills, Dixie Chicks, etc) and with Nicks becoming a gay icon in the early oughties, that brought a lot of attention to the band from that direction.  And the net has kept everything alive,  from forties movie scores to wannabe hipster tracks for people who treat music as if it were the most exotic ingredient in a Chopped basket ("I just heard this amazing Bratislavian garage band that uses tambourine, live-looped pig grunts and the didgeridoo to play disco Big Band -- YOU HAVE TO HEAR IT!") 

I don't think Laura Dern is "pretty", and I love that about her. She has a strong, captivating face that reveals every emotion and thought running across it -- sometimes gracefully, sometimes like a sledgehammer -- to me, that's her beauty. 

ETA: The child who plays Ziggy, Iain Armitage, started doing theatre reviews three years ago -- this is his latest:

Edited March 8, 2017 by film noire

[MaryWebGirl]

56 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

I think it is before, but I'm just working strictly from memory.  Perhaps we're supposed to view that time as her decision-making time? Or evidence that she is feeling stressed out in that house because of her mom.  The other thing that occurs to me is that it is what we have seen Madeline doing, again, almost as a character trait so perhaps Ed was just struck by the similarity?   I agree, my inclination is that Ed is just a good guy and a good stepdad.   I didn't get a sexual vibe I got a slightly wary vibe from Ed.  More of an "What's she doing out there?  She looks one crucial inch from dressing all in black, wearing eyeliner up to her eyebrows and self-injury" because she really did have an oddly intense energy to her but that is actually just the way I'd describe the character from the first seconds.  

Wary! That exactly describes how I read that look. I'm not a mom but I imagine that that's how parents of teenagers feel a lot of the time--wondering what on Earth is coming next.

[stagmania]

3 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

 Might be because I just like Adam Scott and I immediately hesitate for a moment because I've kind of wondered how he ended up in this show, how he ended up reading for the part and I realize, he played a high school teacher who was sleeping with teenagers on Veronic Mars years ago, so maybe that's how the part crossed his path?  I hope not.

Adam Scott has been in the industry for a long time, has been a lead in film, network and cable TV, and is very well-connected. This isn't even his first HBO show (he co-starred in Tell Me You Love Me), so I really doubt his getting this part had anything to do with a decade-old one episode guest stint on a WB show.

1 hour ago, lmsweb said:

Chloe is 6, so Maddie and Ed have been together at least 7 years, probably more. I didn't see it as lust at all. I think Ed loves Abby since he's had a hand in raising her, but is really trying not to interfere with the Abby/Maddy/Ed dynamic as they sort things out. His look struck me as a sort of bemused, "I'm not sure what else I can or should be doing about this right now".  My own daughter is 16 and a lot of the behaviour from Abby is pretty spot on.

I would really love some clarity on the timeline of Nathan leaving, Ed entering the picture, Nathan returning, Bonnie becoming Abigail's stepmom, etc, because I think it would shed a lot of light on the dynamics at play. But I agree that the evidence we have shows that Ed has been in Abigail's life since she was a child, thinks of her as a daughter (he very casually called her "honey" in that scene where they discussed Madeline's agitated tendencies), and is therefore invested in her feelings and choices. I don't see any lust on his face in that picture; he looks thoughtful or concerned.

Edited March 8, 2017 by stagmania

[lovinbob]

10 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

OF COURSE Gordon is staring at himself in the mirror while fucking his wife in his private bathroom at work.

I hadn't noticed that in the episode but seeing the screenshot it is hilarious!

[heatherchandler]

On 3/5/2017 at 10:08 PM, archer1267 said:

I wasn't watching Jane's flashback scene on the beach that closely, but the man's footprints abruptly ended on the sand, didn't they? It made me wonder if he had drowned. Did anyone else see it that way?

 

I noticed the bottom of the shoe - with the round hole in the middle.  Makes me think the shoe is special and expensive, and that makes me think of Perry...

 

On 3/5/2017 at 8:52 PM, WhosThatGirl said:

 

I love the Music in this show! It's amazing. 

 

On 3/6/2017 at 6:52 AM, Razzberry said:

He kinda blew that right away by admitting he gets physical.

Loving the music, but 1st graders digging Fleetwood Mac?  I wish.

 

I agree with some of the other posters who are saying that although he admitted it gets physical, he is downplaying what is really going on.  A typical abuser's tactic.  He is extremely manipulative.

I am actually hating the music!  I see that a lot of people are liking it, I am surprised.  I was watching with my husband last night and he was like, this music is terrible!  I had to agree.  Except for Fleetwood Mac of course!

My kids absolutely sing along to Fleetwood Mac - my oldest is in 2nd grade.  They love it.

 

On 3/6/2017 at 2:24 PM, teddysmom said:

They must be getting the music budget from GM/Buick. They show the Buick insignia at least 2-3 times an episode.  

 

I am actually getting annoyed with how in-your-face the Buick Enclave is.  I usually don't notice product placement.   

I love Reese Witherspoon, she is amazing in this role.  Nicole Kidman can't move her face, so I don't know if she is even awake half the time.  I don't think she is very good in this.  I have liked her in other things, though.  I really don't like Laura Dern, but that may be because I don't like her character.  

I get insanely jealous watching this, I need to figure out a way to get a house overlooking the bay in northern california.  

Edited March 8, 2017 by heatherchandler

[shireenbamfatheon]

I feel like of the many issues and flaws Perry has, his desire to be more involved in his sons' lives isn't one of them. Celeste does seem to be deliberately keeping him at arm's length when it comes to the twins, and I don't think he was in the wrong to want to know more about what's going on with them. What with not wanting him to meet the teachers (when he postponed his trip), reluctantly telling him about a kid in their class choking a girl, not telling him about changed plans etc. there seems to be a pattern of Celeste withholding information from him. Whether it's because she's afraid of him hurting the twins or if it's because she just wants to feel in control of something for once, I can't tell, but I don't think he's overstepping his role as a parent. 

I'm not married and I don't have kids, but from observing other parents, these are regular conversations couples have, right? If your kids' classmate was violent, you wouldn't want your kids near him. If there was a Meet the Teachers event, you'd want to attend too. I know he's super abusive, but at the same time he doesn't seem to inquire about her whereabouts or her hanging out with Madeline all the time, so is wanting to be informed about the twins' lives just another way to control his wife or does he genuinely care and worry about his sons? 

In the grand scale of things, it doesn't change much because he's still an abusive asshole and there's no way Celeste gets a happy ending if they stay together, but I don't think he's the one who's in the wrong about this particular dispute.

[Cardie]

8 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

They could be going there but that's an awful lot of monstrous men with no one who has decent intent.

I don't read much "chick-lit," but judging from one I did sample, The Girl on the Train, books aimed at a female readership whose foundational premise is that all men are monsters are definitely a genre. I haven't been convinced by the actors that Ed-Abigail is a thing but the sudden decline in grades and desire to get out of that house points in the molestation direction. If she were going Lolita on him, she's be happy as a clam.

[nara]

7 hours ago, Juliegirlj said:

I wanted to smack Abby for using the guidance counselor to hurt her mother. Madeline is a strong personality but is approachable and Abby is far from a delicate flower too scared to discuss living with her dad. I find her very manipulative ( like her mama), and wonder IF Abby tried To seduce  Ed-perhaps to hurt Maddie? That did not look like a lustful gaze that Ed had on his face-more like apprehension. 

I thought the situation was that Abby was called to the guidance counselor's office to discuss her sudden bad grades and the counselor got it out of her that she was anxious at home.  

[Clanstarling]

On 3/6/2017 at 5:38 AM, nara said:

Bonnie's sexiness is already a thing. A couple of witnesses were making snide comments about her. She is not endearing herself to the mothers.

There's nothing she could do to endear herself to them. I watched my mother's friends dissect a new young wife in our housing area (military base). They hated her with the heat of a thousand suns. They felt threatened by her, for no reason except that she was reasonably pretty, and dressed fashionably. This was, oh, over 40 years ago now. It's a tale as old as time (to borrow from Disney).

On 3/6/2017 at 10:56 AM, Giesela said:

Yea, can you really afford that house on the beach doing websites?  

Sure, depending on who you're designing websites for. Tech companies? Big bucks. Local mom & pop store, not so much. Websites can be created at a lot of different levels, from "sites in a box" with minor customization to those that are completely designed and coded from the ground up. Truly customized websites for major companies (or startups that want to look like major companies) require considerable technical and graphic design skills that don't come cheap. I work as a webmaster for local government, which means that by choice I don't make the big bucks. Much less stressful.

On 3/6/2017 at 8:51 PM, Lemons said:

How "gifted" is the kid that she could not definitely identify who strangled her?

Okay, so someone strangles her, and she was put on the spot, in front of a crowd of people, and in front of the abuser. I'm guessing she would have been frightened and between a rock and a hard place. The teacher insisted she finger someone - and whoever did it (I'm guessing it was not Jane's son) has physically hurt her and could do so again in retaliation. It's a bad position to be put in at any age, much less 6 years old. Giftedness doesn't come into it, in my opinion.

[mochamajesty]

15 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

There's nothing she could do to endear herself to them. I watched my mother's friends dissect a new young wife in our housing area (military base). They hated her with the heat of a thousand suns. They felt threatened by her, for no reason except that she was reasonably pretty, and dressed fashionably. This was, oh, over 40 years ago now. It's a tale as old as time (to borrow from Disney).

Sure, depending on who you're designing websites for. Tech companies? Big bucks. Local mom & pop store, not so much. Websites can be created at a lot of different levels, from "sites in a box" with minor customization to those that are completely designed and coded from the ground up. Truly customized websites for major companies (or startups that want to look like major companies) require considerable technical and graphic design skills that don't come cheap. I work as a webmaster for local government, which means that by choice I don't make the big bucks. Much less stressful.

Okay, so someone strangles her, and she was put on the spot, in front of a crowd of people, and in front of the abuser. I'm guessing she would have been frightened and between a rock and a hard place. The teacher insisted she finger someone - and whoever did it (I'm guessing it was not Jane's son) has physically hurt her and could do so again in retaliation. It's a bad position to be put in at any age, much less 6 years old. Giftedness doesn't come into it, in my opinion.

 

Sorry, but fingering an innocent (if he is) person?  She should have said nothing in that case. You cannot honestly think that the kid made the best choice.

[Clanstarling]

5 minutes ago, mochamajesty said:

Sorry, but fingering an innocent (if he is) person?  She should have said nothing in that case. You cannot honestly think that the kid made the best choice.

I'm saying she was bullied into making a choice - not that she made a good choice. I'm not going to blame a kid for making a choice because she was put in a position she should never have been put in. It should all have been handled privately, where she would feel safe.

[chocolatine]

Just a theory, but is it possible the choker came up from behind? If Amabella only saw him from her peripheral vision, she probably couldn't fully make out his features, and under pressure from the stupid teacher she singled out Ziggy.

[Clanstarling]

Just now, chocolatine said:

Just a theory, but is it possible the choker came up from behind? If Amabella only saw him from her peripheral vision, she probably couldn't fully make out his features, and under pressure from the stupid teacher she singled out Ziggy.

I think that's a possibility.

[mochamajesty]

43 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

Just a theory, but is it possible the choker came up from behind? If Amabella only saw him from her peripheral vision, she probably couldn't fully make out his features, and under pressure from the stupid teacher she singled out Ziggy.

 

 

I think that's exactly what happened.  I also think she should have said that - that the child was behind her and she didn't know. Histrionic Renata would have backed her up. 

I wonder how long the strangling took. To make a mark like that takes time, right?  Where was the teacher and why is no one asking where she was? 

Edited March 9, 2017 by mochamajesty
Added a thought

[FemmyV]

Quote

I did think that the abrupt end of the prints was meaningful.

I believe that, too. Are we seeing a flashback, or a dream, that is the question.

Re: Dern. The picture from Wild At Heart, geez, that's in character and I dare say she was far prettier than her make-up. Also, see Ramblin' Rose, to catch a look from her youth. She's a very attractive woman, just not a typically homogeneous, Hollywood-ingenue beauty. "Striking," would be the word, although some people don't think that's a good thing.

[Irlandesa]

4 hours ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

I feel like of the many issues and flaws Perry has, his desire to be more involved in his sons' lives isn't one of them. Celeste does seem to be deliberately keeping him at arm's length when it comes to the twins, and I don't think he was in the wrong to want to know more about what's going on with them.

I think the abuse makes every issue they have toxic. Is wanting to be more involved and know more about his children's lives a bad thing for a father?  Absolutely not and I don't think anyone is arguing that it is a bad thing.  The problem is that it's hard to separate his reaction from his complaint when his reaction is so extreme.  It's very unlikely that if he knew every single detail of his children's lives that he wouldn't be abusive.  It's just his entree.  They can't deal with anything until they deal with the abuse. 

But I don't see Celeste as withholding deliberately.  From what we know about Perry, he travels a lot.  I'm not a parent but my dad did work in another town during the week and come on weekends for a few years of my life.  He knew the big things but he didn't know everything that went on in my life during that time like my mom did.  It's part of her routine and it's not always obvious what needs to be shared.  Take, for instance, the thing with Ziggy.  She knew Ziggy.  She didn't think he was dangerous.  Perry knows nothing about him.  I can see why she didn't think she needed to mention him to Perry because, in her judgment, there was nothing interesting about him. And birthday parties? At that age, they're almost routine since there was the rule that if you hand out one invite at school, you invite all the students in the class.

Edited March 9, 2017 by Irlandesa

[stillshimpy]

Just now, nara said:

I thought the situation was that Abby was called to the guidance counselor's office to discuss her sudden bad grades and the counselor got it out of her that she was anxious at home.  

 

 

 

 

Her grades had dropped to a 3.8 so they weren't bad, they just weren't perfect any longer.  That's just as easily stress rather than abuse or molestation and Madeline is actually pretty stressful.  I think what Abigail told Madeline is likely true:  Maddy was trying to undo her mistakes (as she perceives them) by living vicariously through Abby's success.  

Abigail had to have perfect grades prior to having a 3.8 and that's still a high GPA, it's just not a perfect one.  She had a perfect one and then expressed feeling pressured by Madeline to be perfect all the time.   Again, it's possible something is going on with Ed but that did not look like a sexual situation to me and her explanation actually fits when all that happened was her grades slid from perfect to nearly perfect.  Something about which to be concerned but not necessarily anything more than what Abigail talked about.   We've seen Maddy trying to make Abigail's big life choices for her and wanting to be involved in a way that would help really guide the outcome to her preference.  That's not unusual, just combined with everything else about Madeline, I find Abigail's explanation plausible.  

But I also agree, that was a really weird shot....however, it's in a show where we're supposed to be constantly guessing who got murdered and who that person's killer was...I think that explains the directorial choices too.  Almost all cuts are going to be to a "Zounds!! What's going on there??" vibe because that's part of the premise.  

Edited March 9, 2017 by stillshimpy

[mochamajesty]

10 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I'm saying she was bullied into making a choice - not that she made a good choice. I'm not going to blame a kid for making a choice because she was put in a position she should never have been put in. It should all have been handled privately, where she would feel safe.

I get that. I just hate that if Ziggy is exonerated, Amabella will get a pass because she's a kid.  Meanwhile, no one is thinking about the fact another kid was basically ostracized.  And whether she was bullied into it or not (and again, her mom was standing right there and I didn't see Amabella trying too hard to NOT point out Ziggy),  she was indirectly the cause of another kid's  pain.  I am a huge defender  of the underdog . That's why it hawks me off that the teacher suffered no ramifications for starting this mess, and no one cares if Ziggy  is unfairly bullied just because he was fingered by another kid  for being the new kid at school.

Edited March 9, 2017 by mochamajesty
clarity

[Clanstarling]

31 minutes ago, mochamajesty said:

I get that. I just hate that if Ziggy is exonerated, Amabella will get a pass because she's a kid.  Meanwhile, no one is thinking about the fact another kid was basically ostracized.  And whether she was bullied into it or not (and again, her mom was standing right there and I didn't see Amabella trying too hard to NOT point out Ziggy),  she was indirectly the cause of another kid's  pain.  I am a huge defender  of the underdog . That's why it hawks me off that the teacher suffered no ramifications for starting this mess, and no one cares if Ziggy  is unfairly bullied just because he was fingered by another kid  for being the new kid at school.

I too am pissed the teacher wasn't, at the very least, reprimanded. And if Amabella gone to the teacher falsly accusing Ziggy without any prompting, and it turned out not to be Ziggy, then I absolutely wouldn't give her a pass. I can't stand kids like that. They grow up into adults like, well, some of the parents on this show.

My recollection of her pointing out Ziggy is somewhat different, it seemed to me that she was very hesitant and it wasn't at all clear she was going to point to him. Her mom standing there may have been as much a pressure point as the teacher's insistence that she point her attacker out in front of everybody - Renate is a pretty demanding person and Amabella would be fully aware of what her mother's desires were.

In any case, if Ziggy is innocent, I wouldn't so much give her a pass as want someone to dive into why she pointed him out. I tend to favor the underdog myself, but I do cut a little slack for first graders.

It occurred to me that we've been discussing this as if the little perp was a boy - but a girl could have done it just as easily. There are two girls who Amabella might have been hesitant to point out (for different reasons)- Madeline's daughter, and Bonnie's. Or it could have been an accident that blew up beyond a 6 year old's ability to cope.

[Mabinogia]

13 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

In any case, if Ziggy is innocent, I wouldn't so much give her a pass as want someone to dive into why she pointed him out. I tend to favor the underdog myself, but I do cut a little slack for first graders.

This. If she did point to an innocent kid I wouldn't think she was some terrible monster so much as I'd just want to know why. Why didn't she point to the right kid and why did she point specifically to Ziggy. It could be as simple as he was the new kid, or he might have looked enough like the one who did it that she wasn't sure. And she did hesitate. She did NOT want to point to anyone, but that's a lot of pressure to put on any 6 year old "gifted" or not.

I get why she wouldn't point to the real abuser, he was probably standing there somewhere, and who knows what his or her, yes, it could have been a girl, retaliation would have been. These are children despite their overly adult dialog and music choices. Honestly, I blame the teacher more than anyone since she pressured a 6 year old would had just been attacked in front of a group of people including her attacker. You just don't do that to anyone, and certainly not a child.

[Bizabra]

On 3/7/2017 at 9:08 AM, hoodooznoodooz said:

The scene in "Blue Velvet," after she realizes the Kyle MacLachlan character had sex with the Isabella Rossellini character, she's sobbing, and looks ridiculous.  

I like Laura Dern, but she looks so limp and droopy. I'm always thinking she needs to stand up straighter and get a back bone.

[lovinbob]

17 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

Honestly, I blame the teacher more than anyone since she pressured a 6 year old would had just been attacked in front of a group of people including her attacker. You just don't do that to anyone, and certainly not a child.

This is, for me, the biggest fail of the whole scenario. The outstanding public school that feels like private would not ever allow this to happen. These things are dealt with behind closed doors and it's in the school's interest to handle it PERFECTLY, especially with the likes of Renata and Madeline involved. And also because educators actually care about children's feelings and keeping kids safe physically and emotionally. 

So this was a contrivance to allow for the rest of the events to unfold. 

[Bizabra]

15 hours ago, Cardie said:

I don't read much "chick-lit," but judging from one I did sample, The Girl on the Train, books aimed at a female readership whose foundational premise is that all men are monsters are definitely a genre. I haven't been convinced by the actors that Ed-Abigail is a thing but the sudden decline in grades and desire to get out of that house points in the molestation direction. If she were going Lolita on him, she's be happy as a clam.

I disagree. A kid doesn't have to molested or traumatized to have plummeting grades, be moody, or have an attitude. Ed looked wary and wondering to me.

[QuinnM]

Quote

Ed looked wary and wondering to me.

Remember Ed has lived with this girl for at least 6 years.  And took his look as meaning he knows she's up to something and it trying to figure out what it is.  Is it that she wants to hurt her mother?  Is it that she really doesn't want to go to college and figures her father will cosign that?  Or best would be she wants to screw her fathers life the way he screwed hers  and she's going for the long game.  Being all sweet with Bonnie's mother etc.

[EdnasEdibles]

18 hours ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

I feel like of the many issues and flaws Perry has, his desire to be more involved in his sons' lives isn't one of them. Celeste does seem to be deliberately keeping him at arm's length when it comes to the twins, and I don't think he was in the wrong to want to know more about what's going on with them. What with not wanting him to meet the teachers (when he postponed his trip), reluctantly telling him about a kid in their class choking a girl, not telling him about changed plans etc. there seems to be a pattern of Celeste withholding information from him. Whether it's because she's afraid of him hurting the twins or if it's because she just wants to feel in control of something for once, I can't tell, but I don't think he's overstepping his role as a parent. 

I'm not married and I don't have kids, but from observing other parents, these are regular conversations couples have, right? If your kids' classmate was violent, you wouldn't want your kids near him. If there was a Meet the Teachers event, you'd want to attend too. I know he's super abusive, but at the same time he doesn't seem to inquire about her whereabouts or her hanging out with Madeline all the time, so is wanting to be informed about the twins' lives just another way to control his wife or does he genuinely care and worry about his sons? 

In the grand scale of things, it doesn't change much because he's still an abusive asshole and there's no way Celeste gets a happy ending if they stay together, but I don't think he's the one who's in the wrong about this particular dispute.

It seems more like control than just involved parenthood to me. Granted, I'm in a household where we both work, so we very clearly split the decisions. But in most of my friend's homes where there's one working parent and one stay at home parent, the stay at home parent does the day-to-day decisions. It just makes sense. As one close friend once said it me "That's the agreement, I manage the home." so she decides which parties they attend and which teams they go out for and whether they skip a game for a choir competition and so on. If it's a major decision like "Shall we put our child on ADD drugs?" or "After 8 years, Sally wants to quit dance, OK?" they discuss it. But it would be impossible and time prohibitive for a stay at home parent to call the working parent and go over every minor detail.  Whether or not to hang out with a child who may or may not be violent is up for debate as a minor detail - but I think "which of the two events do they attend?" is minor enough that I get why she wouldn't check with him on that. And the fact that he's not willing to relinquish control to her for those sorts of decisions is telling. 

[Cardie]

4 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I think if she'd fallen in love with her stepfather and realized how f'ed up that is and moved out over it, she wouldn't be happy.  

But then she wouldn't have gone all Lolita. That character is a "nymphet" who loves seducing older men.

[lovinbob]

6 hours ago, EdnasEdibles said:

It seems more like control than just involved parenthood to me. Granted, I'm in a household where we both work, so we very clearly split the decisions. But in most of my friend's homes where there's one working parent and one stay at home parent, the stay at home parent does the day-to-day decisions. It just makes sense. As one close friend once said it me "That's the agreement, I manage the home." so she decides which parties they attend and which teams they go out for and whether they skip a game for a choir competition and so on. If it's a major decision like "Shall we put our child on ADD drugs?" or "After 8 years, Sally wants to quit dance, OK?" they discuss it. But it would be impossible and time prohibitive for a stay at home parent to call the working parent and go over every minor detail.  Whether or not to hang out with a child who may or may not be violent is up for debate as a minor detail - but I think "which of the two events do they attend?" is minor enough that I get why she wouldn't check with him on that. And the fact that he's not willing to relinquish control to her for those sorts of decisions is telling. 

And that's the secondary danger of being involved with someone abusive and controlling. It's the little things that you don't think should be a big deal, the area of your own life that you think you control (because it's not rocket science or a big deal) that lead you to walk blindly into your abuser's wrath. 

[kokapetl]

10 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I too am pissed the teacher wasn't, at the very least, reprimanded. And if Amabella gone to the teacher falsly accusing Ziggy without any prompting, and it turned out not to be Ziggy, then I absolutely wouldn't give her a pass. I can't stand kids like that. They grow up into adults like, well, some of the parents on this show.

My recollection of her pointing out Ziggy is somewhat different, it seemed to me that she was very hesitant and it wasn't at all clear she was going to point to him. Her mom standing there may have been as much a pressure point as the teacher's insistence that she point her attacker out in front of everybody - Renate is a pretty demanding person and Amabella would be fully aware of what her mother's desires were.

In any case, if Ziggy is innocent, I wouldn't so much give her a pass as want someone to dive into why she pointed him out. I tend to favor the underdog myself, but I do cut a little slack for first graders.

It occurred to me that we've been discussing this as if the little perp was a boy - but a girl could have done it just as easily. There are two girls who Amabella might have been hesitant to point out (for different reasons)- Madeline's daughter, and Bonnie's. Or it could have been an accident that blew up beyond a 6 year old's ability to cope.

This writers of this show seems to not realize that 6 year old children aren't shrunken down adults. 6 year old boys and girls are largely the same strength: pretty damn weak. Amabella's neck looked like the Original Night Stalker had attacked her with a ligature.