S21.E09: Week 9

[waving feather]

34 minutes ago, Alison said:

I agree that sex is something that should remain private and between couples, but when the courtship occurs on national TV, boundaries blur a bit. Sure, Raven could have advocated for her pleasure more with her ex, but the Puritanical pearl-clutching over her talking about orgasms makes me sad. We're forced to sit through commercials about erections lasting more than 4 hours, yet a woman talks about wanting her partner to satisfy her and she's suddenly white trash. I've always been fascinated by how this show and its viewers treat sex.

If Raven was talking about her sexual relationship with Nick, I would still think it is oversharing (in my standards), but as you said the courtship happens on TV, so meh whatever. I don't mind talk of sex before/during/after the fantasy suites and how Corinne was pursuing Nick. But Raven took it further than the courtship on TV. She referenced to the courtship which happened off screen with her ex. Her ex, no matter what a cheating ass he might have been, did not sign up on this show. So IMO, the sexual relationship she had with her ex should still remain private between them.

And it wasn't even a private conversation she had with Nick. She was saying it during confessionals as well. Like a gimmick. She used it the same way Ashley I. used her virginity as a talking point.

Edited February 28, 2017 by waving feather

[Rainsong]

Quoth the Raven: ‘I’ve never had the big O.’ Well, at least it rhymes with Poe.

But surely the devil has found work for idle hands in sleepy Hoxie? We weren't born yesterday and neither was Raven.

Welcome to fabulous…Brooklyn? Yes, it’s the current capital of gentrification but most people, including Tha Bashler, who count NYC as their favorite city are usually talking about Manhattan, aren’t they?

But this is – and has been – The Bachelor On A Tight Budget for several years now. One might draw a link of correlation, even causation, between the elevation of Chris Harrison to producer and the grasping, eternal search for freebies – flights, hotels, resorts, food. The entire production was settled nicely in a fantastic hotel on a rocky promontory overlooking the Charlotte Amalie harbor in St Thomas USVI but inexplicably decamped to the Bahamas simply because the ‘promotional consideration’ had expired. Bachelor In Paradise’s er, paradise is actually a connected series of forlorn huts along a Mexican beach. It requires all 24 hours of a 24-hour bar to convince the tipsy visitors that it’s luxurious.

According to Google Maps, the William Vale is…not even built! Seriously – in the satellite view it’s a block of flat brown earth. Obviously it’s a new or rebuilt hotel and rates are shown at $282/night. Not cheap in most places but for NYC, even across the river in Brooklyn, that seems low ie right in line with Bachelor’s cheese-paring expenditures.

The point of all that is while the audience scratches its head over the slim pickings that comprise most of the cast each season, the producers don’t seem to realize that photogenic young persons considering participation in this madness are also keeping a close eye on the activities and locations. A cheap picnic sitting on a roadside guardrail, even in USVI, is not the same thing as a spa day and a lunch and/or dinner. Walking through a horse barn is not the same thing as a trip to Keeneland or the Breeders’ Cup. Yes, they’re interested in the Bachelor but with all the down time the least the purchasing department can do is spring for an adequate number of hotel rooms.

And so, hipster Nick has been ensconced in hipster Brooklyn whereupon Andi and her leather-clad hips arrive for a visit. Andi is her usual pleasant self – disapproving, hectoring, cynical. Her prepped arrival line sounds…prepped. The dynamic is one of a teacher conversing with a precocious junior in her class, a mile-wide maturity gulf separating them.

The editing suggests that Andi the solicitor’s unsolicited advice is being delivered at a inconsiderate leisurely pace as the ladies freeze their knackers off outside in October/November with the added misery of wind blowing in off the cold water. Nobody told them to wear cutout dresses made mostly of air but the need for heavy topcoats ruins the visual effect.

Nick gives the most unamazing ‘amazing’ speech ever. Harrison, also freezing cold, fairly sprints on and off stage to give his last rites – I mean, last rose announcement. Corinne is starting to suss out the result here.  No stunned silence or cold AshLee-style anger for Corinne – she begins sobbing instantly. Hey wait! The sound and lighting techs aren’t in place to fully document your misery! In the end, Nick just couldn’t face the prospect of maxing out his Visa the first time they popped down to the shops together, free champagne notwithstanding. Corinne’s tears are in short supply – she’s already in Grrrl Power mode, has possibly had a drink or three, and then promptly falls asleep. No change there then.

Nick dutifully pretends he wants to go to Finland and is put on a plane with interior lighting brighter than that of a hospital operating theatre whereas every other trans-Atlantic flight is kept very dark to entice the passengers to sleep. ABC displays a map of Finland because – let’s face it – a large chunk of the viewership are geographically challenged and have no idea where Finland might be. Is it a foreign word for The North Pole? Do they recognize real reindeer contrasted with Rudolph et al?

The next 20 min of broadcast time become, inexplicably, The Raven Show. Raven goes round the houses relating her brief sexual history to the camera and round the houses again explaining it all to Nick as she squirms and shifts and eventually gets to the L word. Raven’s a nice enough girl – probably too nice for this ordeal. No O (letter) yet but there is a big 0 as in a score of Zero on the Periodic Table – there is absolutely no chemistry between these two.

To preview a 3-hour (!) ‘Bachelor Event,’ ABC serves up 3 full minutes of teaser, including the inevitable reprise of the Corinne/Taylor deathmatch. Except for these two, however, there was no real animosity between members of this rather docile pack. In a way, it may be more silent commentary on their tepid interest in Nick then and now.

An American in an arctic wilderness? It must be time for a Rocky IV training montage, complete with more copyright-dodging Rocky-style music with keyboards standing in for trumpets.

It must be said that the sequencing and subject matter last week, this week and next appear to be a deliberate attempt by the producers to telegraph the result. Would Raven get an episode, albeit short, mostly dedicated to her if she were going on to the final? Common sense and the Vanessa/Rachel teaser sequences say no. And then there was the Bachelorette announcement of last week. It is a seemingly easy task to connect this very small number of very large dots.

The producers have long had to laugh mirthlessly and shrug off spoilers, claiming the information was incorrect when, in fact, it was deadly accurate. They’ve also quietly pursued the source(s) of these spoilers and attempted to silence them. But now they seem to be adopting the enemy’s tactics by spoiling their own show. Very odd behavior but perhaps a petulant, self-sabotage reaction to this stultifying season and their buyer’s remorse over the wooden, diffident Bashler.

Edited February 28, 2017 by Rainsong

[truthaboutluv]

Quote

And where was the RC that was so cold outside? Looked like November in NYC but I thought this was mostly in LA?

They met in NYC after all the HTD for the F4 rose ceremony, before flying to Finland. I think based on logistics with the flying, it was easier to fly out of NYC to Finland than LA. 

[Alison]

34 minutes ago, waving feather said:

If Raven was talking about her sexual relationship with Nick, I would still think it is oversharing (in my standards), but as you said the courtship happens on TV, so meh whatever. I don't mind talk of sex before/during/after the fantasy suites and how Corinne was pursuing Nick. But Raven took it further than the courtship on TV. She referenced to the courtship which happened off screen with her ex. Her ex, no matter what a cheating ass he might have been, did not sign up on this show. So IMO, the sexual relationship she had with her ex should still remain private between them.

And it wasn't even a private conversation she had with Nick. She was saying it during confessionals as well. Like a gimmick. She used it the same way Ashley I. used her virginity as a talking point.

Ashley I's virginity talk did get old, but sex and relationships go hand-in-hand. I appreciate when the contestants are willing to talk about more "taboo" things like virginity, bisexuality, or never having an orgasm. To try and make everyone on these shows into prim, chaste people discredits the role that sexual chemistry plays in compatibility. There doesn't seem to be much sex-positivity in the Bachelor universe.

(This isn't a direct critique at you, Waving Feather, but just my overall frustration at how sex is treated on this show!)

[TheFinalRose]

Quote

One might draw a link of correlation, even causation, between the elevation of Chris Harrison to producer and the grasping, eternal search for freebies – flights, hotels, resorts, food.

This is right on. I even suspect Harrison is behind the deconstruction of the classic Bachelor episode format to the amorphous, steaming mess that gets delivered each Mon. night now. And his reasoning, I suspect, is the loyal "Bachelor Nation" that doesn't go anywhere, no matter how careless production gets, and his own boredom with his job that he has taken his "bend the rules" approach too far to the point that special edition of People Magazine with Nick and his final one will hit the newstands a few days before the final ceremony itself.

Poor Raven, putty in the evil producer's hands, and totally ignorant to boot. I bet you she was talking with the production prompter who asked if she was nervous about the fantasy suite, and Raven probably mentioned off hand that she'd only been with one man and that wasn't very satisfying anyway. Production probably only probed a little further, such as, "unsatisfying in what way?" and Raven gave them the "no O." story. Next they convinced her that Nick would want to know as he would care about that kind of thing (but obviously, no, I'm sure that was not what he wanted to hear). Can you imagine production being able to get info out of Rachel or Vanessa? Uh, no. But Raven being young and dumb fell for it.

Here's another thing: In a short, one-hour episode where we had to sit through the useless appearance of Grumpy Cat, we also had about three or four previews of Raven saying the same thing. Oh well. Honestly, I was so busy reading the articles on the web about the poor Price Waterhouse fool who handed Warren Beatty the wrong Best Picture envelope that I was only half paying attention to the episode anyway.

That Kristoff from Frozen training montage of Nick at the end was pretty cute.

[Primetimer]

Before Nick decides on his final three, Andi Dorfman visits for no good reason at all.

View the full article

[DEL901]

I seem to recall the experimented with moving the Rose Ceremony from the end of the episode in Bachelor in Paradise.  It was annoying then and annoying now.  

I wonder if Raven is at home cringing when she sees herself talking about the big O.  And I agree with posters who said that this has to be causing Nick performance anxiety... especially if he isn't seeing her as his 100% F1.  She has stated on national television that she's only had sex with 1 guy.  Does he want to be her first 1 night stand, if he's not sure he's picking her?

 

ETA:  so who else saw the post credits scene and died from 2nd hand embarrassment?

Edited February 28, 2017 by DEL901

[peachmangosteen]

When Raven said she's never had an orgasm my mom said, "Oh my God," and then just busted out laughing.

I'm totally with you @Alison on the whole sex positivity thing, but damn I didn't really wanna hear about Raven's lack of orgasms lol.

Man, this episode was boring as hell.

Edited February 28, 2017 by peachmangosteen

[Superpole2000]

1 hour ago, Alison said:

I agree that sex is something that should remain private and between couples, but when the courtship occurs on national TV, boundaries blur a bit. Sure, Raven could have advocated for her pleasure more with her ex, but the Puritanical pearl-clutching over her talking about orgasms makes me sad. We're forced to sit through commercials about erections lasting more than 4 hours, yet a woman talks about wanting her partner to satisfy her and she's suddenly white trash. I've always been fascinated by how this show and its viewers treat sex.

Had Raven just talked about herself then it wouldn't have been trashy. Instead, she chose to fire another shot at her ex. That's the trashy part. She has done everything but talk about how small his penis is.

[b2H]

When Chris Harrison made his appearance on that freezing esplanade, dear hubby expected Chris to say 'Who wants to be a Millionaire'.

I think we're all getting seriously done with this season.  Is anyone even remotely interested anymore?

[peachmangosteen]

I started watching again after having not seen most of the recent seasons because I liked Nick on BiP and honestly the beginning of this season showed promise, but I think the editing killed any potential it had.

Edited February 28, 2017 by peachmangosteen

[annewithaneee]

I wonder now that the era of Nick is hopefully over (I mean, after he inevitably breaks up with his pick, would this show actually have him on Paradise again....damnit, they so would) and educated, successful, understated Rachel is the next Bachelorette if the show will swing prudish again.

I mean, Nick himself basically brought all that on during Andi's season. I didn't watch the early early seasons so I don't know if Bob freaking Guinea was bragging about his fantasy suites, but prior to that it was all glossed over with vague platitudes about alone time and connection and intimacy and stuff. Then Nick and his lockjaw blow into town and he essentially slut-shamed her in the reunion (I still remember the "why did you do 'fiance stuff' with me then???" whining, and wondering if Ms. Andi was secretly into pegging or something, what this salacious 'fiance stuff' could possibly be), and then greatly offended me by making me care about and feel sorry for Kaitlyn and the avalanche of pearl-clutching and misogyny she had to endure for being honest about banging one of her man-harem, and egads, before it was technically appropriate to do so.

So now that he and his lockjaw are shuffling off into the sunset, and Corinne will assuredly go off and take her devious sexy toddler shtick to Paradise (where sleaze is not only accepted, it's broadly encouraged), I'm guessing that at least for a few cycles it'll be back to a gentler, faux modest franchise. Which is a bummer, really, be open about the sex that this show is actually built off of.

That said, Raven's sexual frankness was irritating. I feel like she takes her talking points from mid-aughts chick lit. These days, your (hopefully embellished) tale of assaulting two people with a shoe isn't cute, and it's also incredibly sad that as a sexually active woman you haven't had an orgasm. Forget that open communication and refusing to settle for a sexual relationship that is only satisfying one-way is key to a functional adult relationship -- becoming sexually active with another person before figuring shit out for yourself and having many self-service orgasms is just tragic. I think she perceives herself as this victim, but to me she's kind of the worst.

[Shades of Scarlet]

1 hour ago, truthaboutluv said:

They met in NYC after all the HTD for the F4 rose ceremony, before flying to Finland. I think based on logistics with the flying, it was easier to fly out of NYC to Finland than LA. 

Good catch.  Assuming the hometown order was as shown he went from Soooie to Dallas to Miami to Joykill, Quebec, hence the sudden declaration that New York is his "favorite city" or whatever pap they told him to say as he was exiled to, uh, Brooklyn to avoid as much traffic to JFK as possible.  As a bonus, we all got to receive an uplifting, laugh-a-minute visit from the hilarious Andi, amirite??  At least it wasn't Kaitlyn.

Edited February 28, 2017 by Shades of Scarlet

[Wouldofshouldof]

11 hours ago, nutty1 said:

But hey....Nick is on DWTS. Fleiss tweeted it tonight. I've heard Peta is his partner. 

SOOOO glad I don't watch DWTS!

[the eskimo]

Well, it seems that all of the ladies were given a stern talking-to about the lack of spider-monkeying and we now will have the pleasure of watching each of them awkwardly climb Mt. Hipster, who wears skinny jeans even in snow-capped Finland.

I have no judgement about women discussing sex openly, but I do feel like this is the first time the word sex has been openly mentioned in relation to the fantasy suite. It actually made me wonder how many years it will take before there is a pay-per-view option to see the overnights in all their glory. 

[RHJunkie]

1 hour ago, Alison said:

Ashley I's virginity talk did get old, but sex and relationships go hand-in-hand. I appreciate when the contestants are willing to talk about more "taboo" things like virginity, bisexuality, or never having an orgasm. To try and make everyone on these shows into prim, chaste people discredits the role that sexual chemistry plays in compatibility. There doesn't seem to be much sex-positivity in the Bachelor universe.

(This isn't a direct critique at you, Waving Feather, but just my overall frustration at how sex is treated on this show!)

I agree. I think it's fine to talk about these things and it's fine to bring a semblance of realistic conversations on these shows. But I also get where the turnoff was with Raven's confession. Maybe it was more to do with articulation but I thought her confession was more a shot at her ex than it was about sharing something intimate about herself. But more than that, it was done so randomly in such a pointed fashion. 'Oh before we go to the fantasy suites, you need to know these two things about me...', that's putting someone on the spot, not a conversation of getting to know each other and ultimately that's what I found to be a turn off with her. I think on a show that promotes romance, there shouldn't be the double standard that sex isn't a part of the equation but her confession would have been much more appreciated by me if it was in the context of discussing the importance of intimacy in a relationship, what do you like, what don't you like, etc. Nick has made no qualms about discussing sex on the show and has defended Andi and Kaitlyn when people were giving them backlash for sleeping with guys on the show. If there's one Bachelor that you know would be receptive to an open and honest conversation about it, it would be Nick but she bypassed all of that and Nick's reaction didn't seem surprised, he looked uncomfortable.

[saber5055]

I was still working plus had a phone call so missed most of this episode, so thanks everyone here for catching me up on it. Your posts are always better than The Real Thing anyway. I did see Nick in the turtleneck. I love turtlenecks, but on Nick? A big NO, please. I also heard the Raven No Big Oh speech and scored that a big NO please, too. I saw Corrine being sent home, which was no surprise since I called that before this episode aired. (BTW, she said on Kimmel she has not been asked to be on BIP and didn't "know" if she would accept if she was asked. Yeah, right, right?) I also saw the FS room and OMG, fell in love ... with the freaking ROOM. It was gorgeous and I'd love to spend some nights there. I'd even tolerate Nick for that. And count me in as another who was embarrassed by the ending Rocky-esque montage. I guess someone thought it was clever, that person just wasn't me.

[hyacinth]

30 minutes ago, the eskimo said:

It actually made me wonder how many years it will take before there is a pay-per-view option to see the overnights in all their glory. 

I'd pay $29.99 for this!   Hell, I'd have a viewing party, complete with party favors and required tequila shots for every orgasm.    (Two if it was a first for the woman.)  

Edited February 28, 2017 by hyacinth

[laschifosavita]

I enjoyed the talk with Andi.  Nick having to ask his ex for permission to have sex in the fantasy suites had me cracking up at how awkward the whole thing was.  I'm with Andi and consider the possibility of having someone do fiance type stuff with you and still getting dumped to be part of what you accept when going on one of these shows.  There is no way for Nick to do the usual fantasy suites without being a hypocrite, I enjoyed watching the show trying and failing to resolve that issue.

[sekay87]

I still felt like Nick had more chemistry with Andi than he does with any of these final women.

[Kbilly]

Like Nick needed sex advice from Andi--that was just bizarre. And then when she patted herself on the back for being a "feminist" for encouraging intimacy with e'erbody I wanted to barf. Also I super-doubt that Andi drinks scotch. 

Also if Nick's track record tells us anything, I don't think he's the best to go to for solving Raven's problem.

Is he not going to pick anyone?!?

[JenE4]

7 hours ago, the eskimo said:

 

I have no judgement about women discussing sex openly, but I do feel like this is the first time the word sex has been openly mentioned in relation to the fantasy suite. It actually made me wonder how many years it will take before there is a pay-per-view option to see the overnights in all their glory. 

We practically got that for free on the Sean and Catherine wedding special. Remember the camera feed all episode long on "Consumation Station," complete with the maid coming into frame to turn down the bed? Then they very classily ended the special with an outside view of their hotel room and over-dubbed train whistles and monkeys in heat. (Shaking my head)

[Lemons]

10 hours ago, booboopbedoo said:

Raven- my God girl! Have you no class?? That was pure white trash talk about your sex life and lack of orgasm. Your family must be so proud of you!

I thought Raven was a nurse and her boyfriend was a medical doctor. If she could say what she said on TV, she obviously not shy about these things.  Why did she never ask her boyfriend about it?  Why didn't she read up on it?  

She would have learned something about anatomy, the differences in women and how men don't give you an orgasm like they do a dozen roses. 

[Wandering Snark]

24 minutes ago, Kbilly said:

Is he not going to pick anyone?!?

I think this may be the main reason they had Andi back on the show and that is to have Nick respond to her "well you're going to dump 29 women on TV." with "Maybe 30." To put it out there that he may 'Just Say No'. He did say he wouldn't just go through the motions unless it was "right".

It could also play into why they have already announced Rachel as the B'ette, like they are saying 'Okay we admit this season was a loss but hey look we found a great next Bachelorette!!'

With the uncomfortable revelations by Raven and the zero-chemistry issue I can't picture it being her.

And even if Vanessa was his choice from early on she clearly is an easy 'out' by saying he didn't come on just to end up with a LA-Canada LDR. So yeah, it looks like the show just may not 'work' (in his words) for him.

Thus the editors insistence in basically showing every last woman (not named Rachel) in an unflattering way. That would seem to show us that feeling. So yeah, I think we have a no-go (and a continued no-O for Raven).

Edited February 28, 2017 by Wandering Snark

[Stinamaia]

I am more concerned about Raven's overuse of the tanning bed than her orgasms.

Andi has the smuggest smugface of  all smugfaces.  She is unbearably condescending. Even for someone who has been to law school. 

[saber5055]

Raven owns a boutique in Hoxy, Arkansas, she's not a nurse. At least not according to abc.com. And where does it say her stiletto-stabbed ex is a doctor? Looking at the contestants this season, I have to admit I don't recognize or remember at least 20 of them. Maybe more. So forgettable!

[nutty1]

23 minutes ago, Lemons said:

I thought Raven was a nurse and her boyfriend was a medical doctor. If she could say what she said on TV, she obviously not shy about these things.  Why did she never ask her boyfriend about it?  Why didn't she read up on it?  

She would have learned something about anatomy, the differences in women and how men don't give you an orgasm like they do a dozen roses. 

She's not a nurse. She owns a boutique. 

[Lemons]

2 minutes ago, nutty1 said:

She's not a nurse. She owns a boutique. 

Oh, my bad. I got them all mixed up.

Still,  she was bold enough to tell millions of people that her boyfriend never "gave her" an orgasm, you would think she would discuss it with her former bf. She certainly had no qualms about humiliating him on tv. 

8 minutes ago, saber5055 said:

Raven owns a boutique in Hoxy, Arkansas, she's not a nurse. At least not according to abc.com. And where does it say her stiletto-stabbed ex is a doctor? Looking at the contestants this season, I have to admit I don't recognize or remember at least 20 of them. Maybe more. So forgettable!

Does anyone remember Ravens boyfriend being a doctor?  I got that wrong too?

[alannaofdoom]

This episode was stretched so thin I could see daylight through it. Two full segments of stilted conversation with Andi, intercut with women standing in coats on a frigid New York rooftop! More than two minutes of “next week on a three hour (?!?!?) special event” promo at the end of the episode! Absolutely nothing entertaining happened so they resorted to Nick cross-fitting in the snow for the credits tag! Ha... ha? It was the televisual equivalent of changing the font of your English essay to 14-pt Courier New because you're trying to squeeze an extra two pages out of it. 

[nlkm9]

8 hours ago, the eskimo said:

Well, it seems that all of the ladies were given a stern talking-to about the lack of spider-monkeying and we now will have the pleasure of watching each of them awkwardly climb Mt. Hipster, who wears skinny jeans even in snow-capped Finland.

I have no judgement about women discussing sex openly, but I do feel like this is the first time the word sex has been openly mentioned in relation to the fantasy suite. It actually made me wonder how many years it will take before there is a pay-per-view option to see the overnights in all their glory. 

I vaguely remember Trista telling Alex in season 1 that she had never had one...anyone else recall this??

[TheFinalRose]

Quote

Does anyone remember Ravens boyfriend being a doctor?  I got that wrong too?

I heard it too. Lemons, you are not alone. 

[Mabinogia]

14 minutes ago, Lemons said:

Does anyone remember Ravens boyfriend being a doctor?  I got that wrong too?

Raven's boyfriend was a doctor. I think the woman he cheated with was a nurse, or it was a nurse who called Raven to tell her about it. Then she made the long drive to his place, saw the other woman's vagina (showing she is clearly not in the medical industry, or the woman was getting her gyno checkup) then attacked the good doctor with a stiletto, the boyfriend she never once told she loves who only said it to her when drunk and never gave her an orgasm.

This girl is NOT ready for a serious relationship.

[Wings]

Learning more about Josh, I have warmed to Andi.  Enough to think, hmmmmm, maybe they should get together and give it a whirl after he and Vanessa tank!  I am not joking.  That is how bored I am this season and how much I don't like the women.  Well, except Corinne, I have warmed to her, too.  Love her dad. 

[Wandering Snark]

13 minutes ago, alannaofdoom said:

It was the televisual equivalent of changing the font of your English essay to 14-pt Courier New because you're trying to squeeze an extra two pages out of it. 

Not only that they sucked the margins in so far each page looks like a column.

[Meowwww]

Ok so I freakin' love Corinne.  She is hilarious. She needs to hook up with Chad. 

I still can't stand Andi.  So fake with her "realllly!" And "innnnnnnnteresting!"   And she must have had facial fillers cuz she looked like a muppet.  The lighting that accentuated her nose was not her friend.  I do agree that she dressed well. 

[lids]

8 hours ago, the eskimo said:

I have no judgement about women discussing sex openly, but I do feel like this is the first time the word sex has been openly mentioned in relation to the fantasy suite. It actually made me wonder how many years it will take before there is a pay-per-view option to see the overnights in all their glory. 

I think you're right, except it's not going to be pay-per-view. Some couple is going to leak a sex tape from the fantasy suite. And once it turns up on TMZ, they're going to release some lame statement about being hacked, being consenting adults who no one should judge and just needing privacy "at this time." Bonus points if the man/women in the sex tape is the rejected bachelor/bachelorette, so that the chosen one can get a tell-all special about how hard it is to see the person they love splashed across the tabloids with someone else. Oh the humanity! *Places hand lightly to forehead*

I didn't really understand the point of Andi being there and neither did Nick. It would be different if they offered her a free trip out to some exotic locale. Yeah, then I could see her showing up a delivering the corny, "Nows your time to fall in love" line. But she didn't even get a plane ticket, she took the subway to Brooklyn. Maybe TPTB compted her outfit. Leather pants can be expensive on her (non-working) salary.

Did anybody else notice that Andi said: "So you've got three women here you really care about..." when there were four women left. Either they shot that after the elimination of the Nanny Whisperer or Nick just told Andi that he was really only into three of the women left. Savage!

[Mabinogia]

5 minutes ago, lids said:

Did anybody else notice that Andi said: "So you've got three women here you really care about..." when there were four women left. Either they shot that after the elimination of the Nanny Whisperer or Nick just told Andi that he was really only into three of the women left. Savage!

I did notice that, and thought it was very odd. I'm guessing maybe she meant, going forward you will have three women you care about. She sucks so I really didn't pay too much attention to her words of wisdom, other than the brilliant, go fuck them all, advice. lol

[yorklee2]

11 hours ago, saber5055 said:

And where does it say her stiletto-stabbed ex is a doctor?

Raven mentioned it when she was telling the whole cheating story. Supposedly the woman he was cheating with made the statement to her friend, who then told Raven, that she was going to, "eff that doctor." Interesting story behind that though is that after that episode aired I saw a article online that said in half the state of Arkansas that part of the episode where she tells the story was mysteriously replaced with other programming. So people in that part of the state never heard the cheating story. I thought that was very telling. Who would have the power to get something like that done? A doctor with connections possibly?..lol. I posted the link. His name was Henry, Hunter or something like that. There was even a pic of him. Better looking than Nick I'll give him that.

10 hours ago, lids said:

Did anybody else notice that Andi said: "So you've got three women here you really care about..." when there were four women left. Either they shot that after the elimination of the Nanny Whisperer or Nick just told Andi that he was really only into three of the women left. Savage!

Yeah I noticed it. I just thought she assumed/knew that he would only be taking 3 women to the fantasy suite.

Edited March 1, 2017 by yorklee2

[PhysNerd]

11 hours ago, Alison said:

I agree that sex is something that should remain private and between couples, but when the courtship occurs on national TV, boundaries blur a bit. Sure, Raven could have advocated for her pleasure more with her ex, but the Puritanical pearl-clutching over her talking about orgasms makes me sad. We're forced to sit through commercials about erections lasting more than 4 hours, yet a woman talks about wanting her partner to satisfy her and she's suddenly white trash. I've always been fascinated by how this show and its viewers treat sex.

ETA: I really doubt Nick would be turned off by Raven's "lack of boundaries" – this is the same man who confronted Andi, again on national TV, about sleeping together.

There is a huge difference between talking about a medication for an erection or products for feminine hygiene and talking about one's personal sex life.  The difference is commercials are discussing a product; we don't assume the actors in the commercial have issues with erections or feminine odor. No one's privacy is being violated.  Would you honestly be happy about your ex criticizing your bedroom skills on TV?  I doubt it. 

If Raven wanted to discuss her past sex life, she could've discussed this in the fantasy suite with Nick when the cameras were gone.  Talking about one's sex life on TV is trashy in my opinion.  I have this same opinion for both men and women.  Yes, I was one of those people that did not think it was appropriate for Nick to discuss what happened in the fantasy suite with Andi on TV. Maintaining some sort of boundary is especially important when having a relationship on TV.  There are some things that should remain private in a relationship.  Otherwise it will fall apart.  

 Having boundaries is not "pearl-clutching." I don't think sex is dirty or wrong, but it is an intimate act that warrants some level of privacy.  Also, why would Raven find it necessary to tell Nick that that her ex never gave her an orgasm?   When they are in the fantasy suite, she can simply tell Nick what she likes or doesn't like.  

[limecoke]

Quote

You know what this show is missing? Tom Servo, Crow, and Joel walking in and sitting down in the front row (in silhouette) and snarking on the silliness of this show.

If only!! 

Raven, seriously girl, have you no filter?  I don't want to know about your personal, private issues.  Added to Andi's, "Yep, sleep with all of them.  You know you will anyway."  Too much sleaze.  

Best part of this episode, watching Corrine try not to smile while pretend-crying.  Hilarious.  

[huahaha]

11 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

And in my opinion, it's all to sell the idea that Nick ends up picking no one or ends up alone

You're probably right, but what a miscalculation by the producers/editors. The season didn't go "wrong reasons" enough for that kind of edit. If Nick were being led astray into picking the wrong woman, then maybe they could've gone that way. Instead, it's been a whole lot of blah. Instead of rooting for Nick and his chosen lady, I'm actually hoping he walks away (which doesn't seem likely).

[JenE4]

1 hour ago, saber5055 said:

Raven owns a boutique in Hoxy, Arkansas, she's not a nurse. At least not according to abc.com. And where does it say her stiletto-stabbed ex is a doctor? Looking at the contestants this season, I have to admit I don't recognize or remember at least 20 of them. Maybe more. So forgettable!

 

53 minutes ago, Lemons said:

Oh, my bad. I got them all mixed up.

Still,  she was bold enough to tell millions of people that her boyfriend never "gave her" an orgasm, you would think she would discuss it with her former bf. She certainly had no qualms about humiliating him on tv. 

Does anyone remember Ravens boyfriend being a doctor?  I got that wrong too?

 

37 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

Raven's boyfriend was a doctor. I think the woman he cheated with was a nurse, or it was a nurse who called Raven to tell her about it. Then she made the long drive to his place, saw the other woman's vagina (showing she is clearly not in the medical industry, or the woman was getting her gyno checkup) then attacked the good doctor with a stiletto, the boyfriend she never once told she loves who only said it to her when drunk and never gave her an orgasm.

This girl is NOT ready for a serious relationship.

Mabinogia is right. This was all carefully detailed in the stiletto story. Her ex is a doctor. He was out drinking with his staff, and one of his nurses called Raven up to tell her that another nurse (or someone just at the bar? That was the ONE detail that was unclear.) said, "I'm going to sleep with this doctor tonight!" So mama gave Raven her keys to drive to Little Rock. So now we all know how Raven got superhuman strength to "kick down the door," when she heard the woman moaning inside! Doc "gave" this other chick an orgasm but not her!!!! And then Raven saw the woman's vagina and beat them both with her stiletto and whatnot. It's like the Sixth Sense or one of those movies where you get a big revelation at the end, and everything you've seen up until then has a completely different meaning. The orgasm! OMG, it was ALL about the orgasm!

[yorklee2]

7 minutes ago, JenE4 said:

So now we all know how Raven got superhuman strength to "kick down the door," when she heard the woman moaning inside! Doc "gave" this other chick an orgasm but not her!!!!

Raven never said she could hear the woman moaning inside?? Did we watch the same episode?

[JenE4]

11 minutes ago, yorklee2 said:

Raven never said she could hear the woman moaning inside?? Did we watch the same episode?

Not this episode, a few weeks ago. I'm pretty sure that's why she kicked down the door because she heard them having sex inside. I might be adding that detail, though.

Edited March 1, 2017 by JenE4

[Nowhere]

11 hours ago, Alison said:

I agree that sex is something that should remain private and between couples, but when the courtship occurs on national TV, boundaries blur a bit. Sure, Raven could have advocated for her pleasure more with her ex, but the Puritanical pearl-clutching over her talking about orgasms makes me sad. We're forced to sit through commercials about erections lasting more than 4 hours, yet a woman talks about wanting her partner to satisfy her and she's suddenly white trash. I've always been fascinated by how this show and its viewers treat sex.

ETA: I really doubt Nick would be turned off by Raven's "lack of boundaries" – this is the same man who confronted Andi, again on national TV, about sleeping together.

I wouldn't mind a commercial about helping women with sexual issues from a medical standpoint, just like I don't mind the commercials for men who can't get or maintain an erection. It would not bother me in the slightest if there was a commercial that said, "Ladies, having trouble reaching orgasm? Take this pill but make sure your orgasm doesn't last more than 4 hours." Actualy there are medical advertisements about womens' libido. 

I also wouldn't be doing any pearl clutching if a woman on the show said, "I expect to be satisfied sexually in my relationships." I don't need specifics, however. I didn't need to know that Jasmine enjoys giving chokies. It would be even worse if she said that she can't have an orgasm unless a choky is involved. WE don't care. Discuss it with the lucky gentleman privately.

This show is not the time or place to discuss that level of personal information. It doesn't offend me. It's just not necessary and it's not something I care to think about when getting to know the characters. Just like I wouldn't appreciate a man telling the bachelorette, "Btw my ex barely ever got me hard and when she did, I couldn't cum." Uh...okay. Thanks buddy. TMI. Talk about that in the fantasy suite.

It makes me wonder what's wrong with a person who is just fine with the entire nation knowing about it. What would they not say? I think that alone can cause trust issues before the relationship starts. Like well if she can say that on national television, what will she say about our private matters to friends and family? I would not be comfortable with a person who has no filter.

Raven is taking multiple stabs at her ex and it's annoying. But aside from her weird obsession with him, the last thing she should do is put pressure on the new guy to do what her ex couldn't. Just shut the hell up! 

If Nick has a brain in his head, he won't sleep with Raven. He already knows he's picking Vanessa and I have no doubt that he'll bang Vanessa if she lets him. So there's no need for him to put himself in a situation where on ATFR, Raven says that Nick couldn't give her an orgasm either. Then she can say how disappointing he is in the bedroom, since that seems to be the running joke about Nick, and Raven will be bitter as hell when she's not chosen. He just better leave that alone. 

[Mabinogia]

8 minutes ago, JenE4 said:

Not this episode, a few weeks ago. I'm pretty sure that's why she kicked down the door because she heard them having sex inside. I might be adding that detail, though.

I can't remember, but if you did add it, it needed to be added. It pulls the whole story together IMO. It was the rage of hearing someone else orgasm that sent Raven into she hulk territory. It must have been. lol I mean, she didn't love the guy, so there had to be some reason she attacked him. haha

[yorklee2]

19 minutes ago, JenE4 said:

Not this episode, a few weeks ago. I'm pretty sure that's why she kicked down the door because she heard them having sex inside.

Yes I know which episode you were talking about and I don't remember her saying that. Maybe she heard them, maybe not. She already knew he was with this woman. That 2 hour drive to his home was a long time to think about it. I think at this point her adrenaline was in overdrive and I suspect she had worked herself into a frenzy thinking about it so (if it happened the way she said) she didn't need to hear anything to want to knock that handle off the door.

ETA: Not that I agree with her actions. I'm just saying that's how I perceived her thoughts and mindset.

Edited March 1, 2017 by yorklee2

[ByTor]

46 minutes ago, PhysNerd said:

There is a huge difference between talking about a medication for an erection or products for feminine hygiene and talking about one's personal sex life.  The difference is commercials are discussing a product; we don't assume the actors in the commercial have issues with erections or feminine odor. No one's privacy is being violated.  Would you honestly be happy about your ex criticizing your bedroom skills on TV?  I doubt it. 

If Raven wanted to discuss her past sex life, she could've discussed this in the fantasy suite with Nick when the cameras were gone.  Talking about one's sex life on TV is trashy in my opinion.  I have this same opinion for both men and women.  Yes, I was one of those people that did not think it was appropriate for Nick to discuss what happened in the fantasy suite with Andi on TV. Maintaining some sort of boundary is especially important when having a relationship on TV.  There are some things that should remain private in a relationship.  Otherwise it will fall apart.  

 Having boundaries is not "pearl-clutching." I don't think sex is dirty or wrong, but it is an intimate act that warrants some level of privacy.  Also, why would Raven find it necessary to tell Nick that that her ex never gave her an orgasm?   When they are in the fantasy suite, she can simply tell Nick what she likes or doesn't like.  

VERY well said!  To take it further...what's the point of telling someone that you never had the big "O" before?  It just creates a ton of pressure in a situation where there should be none.  Be woman enough to tell someone to his face what does/doesn't work for you, don't go on tv and play the victim card.

Edited March 1, 2017 by ByTor

[Ms Blue Jay]

I'll blame Raven for talking about her inability to orgasm on TV but I feel uncomfortable that so many of you blame  women for not being able to have one. If you think there's so much information out there for women to learn or understand their bodies, you're wrong - at least, there was not when I was growing up.  Raven is still young.  I really strongly empathize with her situation.  I feel like I've seen a million television or movie scenes or male standups discuss male masturbations or orgasms but it's very rare that this is depicted on television for women.  Women are also not really taught to be super assertive about their sexuality.

Maybe I should even be happy that Raven brought it up.  I think a lot of people / pop culture really don't give a shit about the female orgasm... it should be discussed way more.

Edited March 1, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[TiredMe]

I think that entire Raven thing was such a super calculated way of screwing with the ex. From the I never told him I love him but I love you...to the he never gave me the O. It was scripted and fake imo. And frankly I wouldn't touch her after she said it on national tv. Nothing wrong with her saying she only had one lover because she takes sex seriously. Good for her there. But sorry, big-o is a no-go. 

I couldn't help it but I loved Andi. She was so superior and completely in control of him again like she was on the show, that I got a kick out of it. She owns him and they both know it. Lol still think maybe they need to visit their relationship. 

That post show display with nick exercising with logs etc was embarrassingly hilarious.