S21.E06: Week 6: St. Thomas

[Ms Blue Jay]

36 is middle aged if we live to 72.  Which I think is the average life expectancy in U.S. right?  (I Googled it - it says 78.7.)   The oldest Millennials are already 35 so don't feel so bad about it.  It just means we're in the middle of our lives -- and if I make it to 70+ that's pretty good!

Quote

That article is just repeating what very young people think, no way to scientically prove such things.

You don't need science to do simple math.  Go from beginning to the end of someone's life and then find the middle.

Anyway, thanks @truthaboutluv and everyone else for any gossip - I freaking L O V E it.

Well after @huahaha has pointed this out to me, apparently middle aged and midlife crises are not technically accurate titles at all.  Weird.

Edited February 8, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[truthaboutluv]

8 minutes ago, TiredMe said:

vanessa was the only one with a fab swimsuit. 

I don't remember Rachel's being bad. I think it was just a plain white bathing suit. I did love Vanessa's though and apparently so did a lot of people because a style guide social media site already had where to buy it as soon as the episode was over. People were obsessing about the one she wore to the pool party as well. I also thought Vanessa looked smoking hot during the night part of the date. I really think she might be one of the most beautiful women that's ever been on the show. 

[huahaha]

7 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

36 is middle aged if we live to 72.  Which I think is the average life expectancy in U.S. right?  (I Googled it - it says 78.7.)   The oldest Millennials are already 35 so don't feel so bad about it.  It just means we're in the middle of our lives -- and if I make it to 70+ that's pretty good!

 

 

You don't need science to do simple math.  Go from beginning to the end of someone's life and then find the middle.

Anyway, thanks @truthaboutluv and everyone else for any gossip - I freaking L O V E it.

 

Middle age is middle of adulthood, not life. Oxford and Merriam-Webster dictionaries both put it around 45-65. Other countries outside of the U.S. might think of the term differently.

[jade.black]

6 hours ago, TheFinalRose said:

And the reason they cannot show us this is ....?????  Oh please, Chris Harrison and your bevy of editors. You thought giving us a chopped up episode that made no sense, when what really went down is readily available on the internet, was the best option? Since when do they shy away from showing us any of these girls having a hissy fit? Was Vanessa that unlikeable that she has to have her image preserved? Hmmmm......   They couldn't even give us 90 seconds of Raven and Nick and show him giving her the group rose date?

I'm sick of the editing this season. Isn't the whole premise of the show that people get roses each week to advance? Yet nowadays we don't even get to see them receive the roses? And if Jasmine actually told him she slept with his friend, why was that cut?? That's interesting drama! In other seasons it would have been highlighted in the previews! I did wonder why he kept her over Alexis whose company he clearly enjoyed. Someone said the producers made him? Why? They knew the bombshell about his friend was coming, maybe... but then they cut that? The volleyball scene was totally bizarre. I was confused as to why Nick wasn't playing, but they never announced it was a competition for time. Then Nick says he feels bad that the date was a disaster and he wasn't connecting with anyone... so he goes and stands by himself in the water staring into the distance.

If Vanessa is a bitch, I want to see it! I don't like her for some reason I haven't been able to pinpoint, and maybe I'm just seeing something through the editing. It's not like winners (assuming that's why they're painting her in a good light, I'm spoiler-free) haven't been edited negatively in the past. I mean Courtney and Vienna won their whole damn seasons. I didn't catch Vanessa acting out for attention like some people have said in this particular episode, but I remember finding her really annoying when she was dancing down the stairs in her 80s bridal dress for the photoshoot in an earlier date. Also I was just really irritated every time she called Danielle "D Lo" in some accented gangster voice. I'm loving reading all the behind the scenes RS info you guys are posting since I avoid his site to steer clear of spoilers. The date makes so much more sense in light of what was going on.

I'm hoping we're back on format now that he's cut three girls and I'm assuming there's no rose ceremony this week.

7 hours ago, hnygrl said:

He's both the best and worst Bachelor we've ever had...his face though...you can tell everything he's thinking...and he still doesn't touch the women he's not into. Huh. Watch with the sound off. You'll really see it then.

I said during the Danielle date that he telegraphs his emotions so obviously. He was so uncomfortable and sweating like crazy! I really appreciated that he's looking for a raw and adventurous relationship and dumped her after she pulled out that lame-ass answer of "love" and "trust". Nick is not impressed by cliches. Also, I liked Danielle at first, but she is really the definition of a basic bitch. She seems perfectly nice but there is no depth there.

Nick has cried more than the women on this show but I couldn't believe nobody got up to give him a hug at the end. If he was doubting things already, that can't help! I mean, if I went and broke down in front of a room full of dudes who were supposed to be into me and then none of them said a word or got up to comfort me and nobody chased after me, I'd feel pretty freaking low about the whole situation.

[JenE4]

36 is definitely middle aged. I say this as a middle-aged 42-year-old. If anything that article skews too old up to 58 because no one lives to be 116! But, I guess in general terms of early life, middle life, and late life, about 30 years in each (30-60 being your middle ages) makes perfect sense. 

I don't know whether those saying it's not middle aged are there yet--or you're just close enough under that you don't want to think of yourself as getting close to middle age yet, but when you hit it, you know it! I remember my early thirties I still considered myself young, but wow, one day you're in your mid- to late thirties and find yourself around ACTUAL young people and it's like, yep, I'm officially middle aged!

I bet we just witnessed the EXACT moment Nick's mid-life crisis hit him. He's on these dates with all of these girls more than a decade younger than him crying and hot girls like Danielle unable to string together any thought of substance, and he's like: What the hell am I doing here trying to find a wife amongst these kids?!? No wonder why the guy had a breakdown!

Edited to add an article on middle age. This says middle age is commonly agreed upon to be between 35 and 58--but more so when you start feeling older, based on a series of factors.

Edited February 8, 2017 by JenE4

[Lemons]

15 minutes ago, huahaha said:

 

Middle age is middle of adulthood, not life. Oxford and Merriam-Webster dictionaries both put it around 45-65. Other countries outside of the U.S. might think of the term differently.

That makes the most sense. In terms of adulthood, I think 20's and 30's are young adulthood, 40's and 50's are middle adulthood, 60's and 70's are senior adulthood, and 80 plus is old age. 

[FamilyVan]

Re: Lorna - let me say first, I don't like Corrine, and I think the focus on her as a B-storyline are stupid.  However... the editing monkeys made this all seem like more of a thing than it actually was.  Lorna worked there, and the things we see her doing are her actual job, to attend to guests.  When Corrine said something about steaming her dress,  we do not actually SEE her say this to Lorna, like we do not see her mouth saying the words, and we do not actually see Lorna steaming a dress.  This could be a voice over from something else taken out of context.   I think it was edited to be like here's Corrine the pampered princess, and Corrine's TH comparing Lorna to Nanny Raquel played into this well, but I do not think this woman, as an employee of the hotel, was mistreated or taken advantage of in any way.

[Dittohead]

I would rather sleep alone on the floor than in a bed with two other adult women.

[sistersledge]

Quote

I did wonder what a 5 year old girl has to do to find her way to an orphanage.  Wander the streets until someone realizes she is alone with nowhere to go?

This is kind of my niece and nephew's story. They were, in fact, wandering around (as a 5 yr old) because their family was not taking care of them. A lot of times, families in Eastern European countries will put kids in orphanages for other reasons, like alcoholism and just plain not being able to take care of them.

[Vicky8675309]

9 hours ago, Alison said:

In other corners of the Bachelor internet where I lurk, a screenshot is making the rounds of a Facebook post allegedly from Rachel's sister. It gives a bit more context to the volleyball game from hell:

"FYI, on this last episode, they cut out Jasmine really flipping out and telling Nick she slept with one of his friends when he cut her. He also wanted to send her home earlier but producers wouldn't let him.

The reason the girls were pissed is because the winning team (Raven, Rachel and Corinne) was supposed to get more quality time with Nick, but then Vanessa started crying because the attention wasn't on her, so he let them all have more time. It doesn't show any of that, so their reactions don't make sense as to why some of them are pissed."

BIB: I really wish they had shown those scenes. I'm not sure why they are protecting Jasmine however I am guessing Vanessa is F1 or F2 or in line to be the next Bachelorette so they are protecting her.  Thanks for the inside scoop!

9 hours ago, ribboninthesky1 said:

Holy moly! Now this is drama that should have been shown.  I ain't evah been a Vanessa fan, so not at all surprised she allegedly threw a fit.  

I'm glad I'm not the only one who isn't a Vanessa fan. A lot of people seem to love her and at first I was fine with her but I went off her this episode. Little things were getting to me but what finalized it for me was toward the later part of this episode where she made everything about herself. I also get condescending or "I'm superior" vibes from her. I did like her calling out Nick a few episodes ago but that only goes so far imo and the rest of her actions caused me to go off her. I have a hard time pin pointing those actions but it is subtle and just my impression of her. 

9 hours ago, Nowhere said:

Danielle L and the only one who called her that was Vanessa. She said it maybe 3 or 4 times. 

Nick already knows who he's going to pick and he knew from day one. Just like Kaitlyn knew and JoJo also knew who they were picking from day one. I have a hunch it's Vanessa and that's why she can continue to make demands and he just does whatever she wants. That's probably why they didn't show that part of the volleyball argument. It would be too obvious to the viewers how much he wants Vanessa. 

 

I agree and I guess the producers don't want the edit to look like a villain "wins" in the end. I don't think any of the women are real "villains" so by "villain" I just mean the character they are portraying or some of their actions/words as edited by the show. I think it is easy for editors to hide bitchiness (or whatever) and to make people look "bad" or "good".

7 hours ago, TheFinalRose said:

And the reason they cannot show us this is ....?????  Oh please, Chris Harrison and your bevy of editors. You thought giving us a chopped up episode that made no sense, when what really went down is readily available on the internet, was the best option? Since when do they shy away from showing us any of these girls having a hissy fit? Was Vanessa that unlikeable that she has to have her image preserved? Hmmmm......   They couldn't even give us 90 seconds of Raven and Nick and show him giving her the group rose date?

It's obvious Fleiss etc. are nervous about what they got this season, hence the controlling of the narrative that is leaving the viewer scratching their head as to why everyone on the beach is pissed and rewinding the show to see what they missed? So what if Vanessa cries and Nick gives in? They can patch it up with a voiceover of Nick saying, "I am such a softie when anyone cries." 

BIB: agree.

I actually don't mind if the Bachelor or Bachelorette picks someone who is considered a villain. I'd prefer to see the real person...or as real as can be on this show but whatever. The fact that they are leaving out some unpleasantness pertaining to Vanessa makes me think worse things that probably happened (my imagination is likely worse than reality, lol).

6 hours ago, In2You said:

From what I read there was a lot of unlike able Vanessa stuff edited out this episode

 I want to know!

6 hours ago, zoltana said:

I found it really telling when Vanessa was sitting on the beach and said, 'the fact that I have to go through these next few weeks having to deal with all the competition, and all the gossip and all the talk and the other one on ones, it's so f*#ing annoying', and I've been so patient...'.   At this point it's interesting to hear her talking with fairly evident certainty that she'll be there through the next few weeks.  Did the editors slip up?

Great observation!

2 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

In a nutshell, Reality Steve claimed that she told the women and Nick that Danielle L. was fake (now we didn't see this and of course RS will swear his sources are legitimate but still it's a you believe what you want kind of situation). This supposedly happened after Danielle's 1 on 1 with Nick so RS basically suggested that she felt threatened. Then she cried when her team lost the volleyball game, of course RS stated that they all cried and we did see that last night. But some have turned it into "Vanessa threw a tantrum when she lost and Nick coddled her and made them all stay". And finally, the creme de la creme that has many rushing to pick their team - word is she and Rachel did not like each other. Basically per RS, apparently he heard Vanessa wasn't the most liked woman in the house and so she was clearly a mini-villain. And that's the big dirt. 

Thank you!

I wonder what she means by fake?

I don't see Vanessa as "raw" or "adventurous" which are two words Nick used to describe what he is looking for in a partner.

Edited February 8, 2017 by Vicky8675309

[In2You]

It was so obvious Vanessa had an issue with Danielle L. She couldn't keep her name out her mouth and kept harping on why she was on the two on one. 

[truthaboutluv]

34 minutes ago, In2You said:

It was so obvious Vanessa had an issue with Danielle L. She couldn't keep her name out her mouth and kept harping on why she was on the two on one. 

We can all speculate on what happened and Vanessa being a low key bitch in real life but I will say I paid attention to everything she said because I'd read about RS's claim regarding her and Danielle and I didn't think she said anything bad. Whitney and Danielle M. were the ones who essentially stated that Danielle was not right for Nick.  

Vanessa's reaction seemed to be surprise that Danielle was even on the 2 on 1, much like Danielle was herself. We've heard countless stories from past contestants that the contestants do eventually pick up on who the lead is interested in and the people likely to make it to F4/HTD, etc. My guess is they all thought, including Danielle herself, that Danielle was a likely choice to make it to the end, at least HTD. So for her to be picked on a 2 on 1 seemed to make no sense.

Especially since if you think about it, it would have made more sense for it be Whitney and Jasmine, the two people who hadn't had 1 on 1's. Because pitting Whitney against Danielle who had had a 1 on 1 and therefore a chance to connect with Nick better, almost seemed unfair. And so I think the women were very surprised and confused and that's what Vanessa was expressing because that's why she was saying she didn't know where his head was at and then started second guessing and questioning his feelings for her. She never said anything negative about Danielle, to my recollection. 

Again, I'm not saying the bad mouthing did or didn't happen but that's how I took her comments last night about Danielle. What I will say though is that there were a few times, if you were paying attention, where I thought it was clear that Rachel is not a fan of Vanessa's. The most glaring was when Vanessa shared her "fun fact". I swear there was almost a crickets moment and Rachel looked like she was seconds from the eye roll. 

Personally, I like both women so I'm Team No one unless I see something that makes me say one is clearly wrong. Everything I've observed online about them since filming ended seems fairly positive in my opinion. Frankly I think this may have just been the case of two strong personalities unsurprisingly didn't get along. Or as they say in my culture, "sometimes some people blood just don't mix".

Edited February 8, 2017 by truthaboutluv

[Canada]

My conspiracy theory on why this season has gone awry: I think Nick is just not a guy who can date a bunch of women at once.  I think he wants to date one woman and that's it.  Hence, I think he's having a tough time being in this situation and it's coming across badly (both on screen and to the women).  I also suspect that there's one person he's wanted from the start, adding to the overall awkwardness with having to continue on dating a bunch of different women.  I don't know who that one person is, but I think she exists.

[truthaboutluv]

5 minutes ago, Canada said:

I think Nick is just not a guy who can date a bunch of women at once.  I think he wants to date one woman and that's it. 

He actually said something to that effect in his early media interviews before the season started. A lot of the hosts were asking him about dating a bunch of women and of course making it out to be the greatest thing and he said that he's always been a one woman kind of guy so the whole experience was weird for him.

[In2You]

16 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

We can all speculate on what happened and Vanessa being an low key bitch in real life but I will say I paid attention to everything she said because I'd read about RS's claim regarding her and Danielle and I didn't think she said anything bad. Whitney and Danielle M. were the ones who essentially stated that Danielle was not right for Nick.  

Vanessa's reaction seemed to be surprise that Danielle was even on the 2 on 1, much like Danielle was herself. We've heard countless stories from past contestants that the contestants do eventually pick on who the lead is interested in and the people likely to make it to F4/HTD, etc. My guess is they all thought, including Danielle herself, that Danielle was a likely to make it to the end. So for her to be picked on a 2 on 1 seemed to make no sense.

Especially since if you think about it, it would have made more sense for it be Whitney and Jasmine, the two people who hadn't had 1 on 1's. Because pitting Whitney against Danielle who had had a 1 on 1 and therefore a chance to connect with Nick better, almost seemed unfair. And so I think the women were very surprised and confused and that's what Vanessa was expressing because that's why she was saying she didn't know where his head was and then started second guessing and questioning her relationship with him. She never said anything negative about Danielle, to my recollection. 

Again, I'm not saying it did or didn't happen but that's how I took her comments about Danielle last night. What I will say though is that there were a few times, if you were paying attention, where I thought it was clear that Rachel, not a fan of Vanessa's. The most glaring was when Vanessa shared her "fun fact". I swear there was almost a crickets moment and I swear Rachel looked like she was seconds from the eye roll. 

Personally, I like both women so I'm Team No one unless I see something that makes me say one is clearly wrong. Everything I've observed online about them since filming ended seems fairly positive in my opinion. Frankly I think this may have just been the case of two strong personalities unsurprisingly didn't get along. Or as they say in my culture, "sometimes some people blood just don't mix".

So you don't believe Vanessa had an issue with Danielle L when she was actually talking about her being on the two on one but Rachel obviously must have  an issue with her per this episode based on a eye roll that didn't happen? Yeah okay. RS is usually on point so I'm inclined to believe him.

[Jax7917]

I miss bachelor in paradise . 

I wish I got paid for Chris Harrison's job 

 

the end. 

[truthaboutluv]

3 minutes ago, In2You said:

So you don't believe Vanessa had an issue with Danielle L when she was actually talking about her being on the two on one but Rachel obviously must have  an issue with her per this episode based on a eye roll that didn't happen? Yeah okay. RS is usually on point so I'm inclined to believe him.

Um no that is not what I said but you interpret your own way. And for the record, saying I thought Rachel looked like she didn't care for Vanessa at some points is not some knock against Rachel. She lived with her for a bit so she very well may have had her reasons for feeling the way she did. Also I didn't say it was a fact that she felt this way. Now I will exit because my interest in pitting women against each other is nil.

[catrice2]

I'm sorry, but sitting around giving each other nicknames is about as entertained as the girls got.  Thank God I did not actually hear anyone utter the word "DLO."  Are you kidding me?  I don't know what is worse, saying it or answering to it. 

Apparently now the conversation is around who is more "popular" based upon the number of Twitter or Instagram followers, this is how they decide on who should be the Bachelorette. 

Not satisfied to come on a show and have yourself judged against 20 other women and your self worth determined by one man, now people are judging worthiness by your likes on social media. 

No wonder so many kids these days have self esteem issues.  These women are willing to embarrass themselves and their families for the promise of social media wealth and the opportunity to make appearances at bars.  Not only that, they are willing to trot out their tragic backstories so that America will "love them."   Not to discount Kristina or Jubilee, but plenty of people live and survive more tragic lives every day...at least they were adopted and afforded the opportunity to make something out of their lives....which makes it even more puzzling why that "something" would be to come on a reality show and compete with other women for a sliver of attention from a man that is not even attractive.   Many of these children are left at the orphanage.   At least Kristina knows she has siblings.  If I recall, Jubilee's whole family died.

 NIck does not come off as any more mature than Ben did, and I had to stop watching his season because he was such a little boy.....along with the bad grammar.   Nick is supposed to have what? 8 or 10 years on Ben?  Nick is a little boy in a grown man's boy, with a speech impediment that is not attractive.  I finally saw a video of him running his fingers up someone's arm in what was called the "itsy bitsy spider," and all I could think is sex with him has got to be a bust.   I see no connection between him and any of the women, the kisses are passionless.   It is almost as if you can see their minds working....thinking about what trip or shilling opportunity they can get out of this as a reward for putting up with Nick.  It is so obvious that whomever "wins" will be the real loser.   These girls are competing with each other for the shot at being Bachelorette. 

I don't know about spoilers or the truth of who likes whom, but clearly there was more to the story at the volleyball date.  
Nick is boring and people expect the women to be on their best behavior.  Last week it was "we LOVE Rachel!."  This week it is, "how dare she not realize what show she is on, she is there to compete for him!  Who does she think she is?"  These girls are just one bad date away from social media turning on them.   Sheeesh! 

[ribboninthesky1]

How is Nick's season doing in the ratings? Especially compared to other Bachelor seasons?

[violet and green]

3 hours ago, Ohwell said:

When did 36/37 become middle-aged?

Now I have to explain my adjectives?!

To me, 35 and up is middle-aged, going on average lifespans. You may choose your own start and cut-off point, of course! Strictly speaking perhaps I should have written it thus: "middle-aged". He is not, to my mind, a young playboy. He is a seedy older playboy. Maybe it's the beard. The boozed-up undereye circles, etc. The tiredness, the life-weariness he exhudes, unless inhaling someone nubile. No, I'll stick with "middleaged playboy," as written.

Sorry, however, if I have offended any youthful sensibilities! I am deeply middle-aged, myself. Possibly old.

[RHJunkie]

After finally seeing the episode, I have to say what a poorly thought out group date and horrible edit. First of all, why the hell would Nick think any of the women would appreciate or have fun on a group date where he completely removed himself from being involved in the activity? I see people piecing together information based on certain behind the scenes information - if everyone got angry because Vanessa threw a fit because her team lost and and Nick gave in and allowed the entire group to stay for the second part of the date, then why was the game still going on when Rachel got upset and decided to quit on the game? Why was Danielle talking about losing valuable time in spending with Nick? And why did Rachel tell Nick that her issue was having to be in a competition to get more time with him? She didn't express issue with someone not playing by the rules...her frustration seemed very similar to what Vanessa and Danielle M were saying in their THs. If they didn't want to show the context behind what happened, they should have edited out parts of the one one one conversations and THs that alluded to drama going down on the beach and just use Nick's voiceover to explain it away. 

Jasmine, you crazy. That whole conversation was uncomfortable to listen to and watch. Nick has such a shitty poker face, lol.

So the only reason Whitney is getting screen time is because they need to provide context to her elimination. I still don't recognize her but she's a pretty girl.

Danielle L like just spoke in cliches and like literally did not answer Nick's question like...yeah. 

[yorklee2]

Of course everyone has their opinion about Nick's breakdown but considering everything I have seen of him I think a small part of it was simply that it's getting harder to send the women home this far in the game. From the start he would tell all the women he was sorry when he let them go. Which I think was a telling sign since I've never noticed another bachelor expressing that so much. They would say more like, (as Nick does as well), "I wish you the best" or "thank you for coming", but never as many, "I'm sorry" as much as he does. And although to this point I don't think he has cared deeply about the women he has sent home it's still part of his nature as a sensitive, in touch with his feelings person to really hate hurting anyone. I know a lot of women hate that kind of man but as long as it's not over the top I see that as a asset. Some people (man or woman) are just that way. They tend to feel things more deeply and are more aware of hurts and slights to others as well. I think that's why he has so many female friends and why they gravitate to him.

But for the most part I agree with others that he was upset that the day had went so bad and I think it really gets to him when he has to be the bad guy. Not so sure about all the, "I don't know if I will be able to find love" bit as much as I think he's just getting more scared and cold feet the closer it gets to choosing the F1. I think they showed something similar with Ben last year with all that, "unloveable" baloney, and the stress, tears and indecision in the final weeks.

I do think Nick was being somewhat selfish though.He shouldn't have said what he did in a way to make the women feel like they might not have what it takes for him to fall in love with them.He may have been feeling that way but he didn't need to let them know that. Something like, "it's been a long day and tonight's been really tough. It's just going to get tougher so I ask for your patience" Something to that effect. Even better would have been to wait until the next morning and talk to them when he had calmed down and his head had cleared.

Edited February 8, 2017 by yorklee2

[yorklee2]

4 hours ago, TiredMe said:

For me, Nick is rapidly reaching Ben Flapjack levels of bad. I have to watch each episode while multitasking something else because it doesn't hold my interest. Then I read some comments later and think wtf, when I miss stuff. Lol

vanessa was the only one with a fab swimsuit. 

I disagree. Ben was so arrogant at times. When one of the girls, who was a pretty blond and extremely intelligent, tried to tell him about despicable Courtney he point blank told her she had better, "tread lightly". What a jerk. I have never saw a bachelor act like this before or since. With absolutely no reason to be so cocky. I mean look at him. He wasn't nothing to write home about but his attitude made him downright ugly. He didn't know how to have a real conversation, unlike Nick, and seemed more interested in just making out constantly. Nick may have his boring moments but he is head and shoulders above Ben F in my opinion.

Edited February 8, 2017 by yorklee2

[bethster2000]

2 hours ago, yorklee2 said:

Ben was so arrogant at times.

"Tread lightly."  I will never forget that.  What an ugly ass.

[chocolatine]

3 hours ago, yorklee2 said:

Ben was so arrogant at times. When one of the girls, who was a pretty blond and extremely intelligent, tried to tell him about despicable Courtney he point blank told her she had better, "tread lightly". What a jerk. I have never saw a bachelor act like this before or since.

Jake Pavelka. Not on the show itself, but in his "break-up special" with Vienna. And to his dance partner on DWTS. But I agree, Flapjack was vile. 

[bleiby73]

When Nick was having his sobbing drama fit at the end of the episode, I saw Kristina staring at him, emotionless. She was probably thinking, Are you kidding me? I had to eat fu**ing lipstick when I was a kid and you're the one crying over which woman to pick? These are not problems, dude. Call me when you have an actual problem.

[Rainsong]

A brief second post on this week to pile on Nick again:

1) Every Bachelor we've seen has obvious favorites even if the producers and the editors attempt to make it look like a level playing field.  Ben/Lauren, Sean/Catherine et al.  Hindsight is convenient but those pairings were obvious from the off.

2) The Bachelorettes must endure long periods of idle boredom but so must The Bachelor, who is kept in his gilded cage until dates/activities with the additional burden of solitude (production staff swarming around at all times notwithstanding) during the downtime.

3) Despite these restrictions, most (all?) previous Bachelors were, shall we say, feeling the full effect of their hormones combined with a competition-free environment full of desirable women.  When they were set loose on the women, they wasted no time.

4) The producers all but beg the participants to break the so-called rules via stealthy assignations.  Are some of these staged?  Probably.  Why else would a full camera and sound crew be ready at a moment's notice at 10 or 11 at night when the cast are presumed to be sleeping?  Corinne's visit to Nick's room next week is well past the halfway mark of the season but at least she's taking some initiative.

5) The point of all this is that a Bachelor who really wanted to see his favorite or simply have some unscripted adult time would get only token resistance even if it tipped off who the contenders were.  Has Nick been so institutionalized through multiple Bachelor seasons that he doesn't even consider sneaking away with one or more of them?  He himself has been the Bachelorette's bit on the side so surely he must know the doors may be shut but they are never locked.  Is this merely another facet of his submissive personality?  Or is it an unmistakable, if unspoken, sign that he simply isn't strongly attracted to any of them even if he fulfills his contract by selecting a final two and pretends to be smitten?

Edited February 8, 2017 by Rainsong

[JudyObscure]

9 hours ago, Vicky8675309 said:

I'm glad I'm not the only one who isn't a Vanessa fan. A lot of people seem to love her and at first I was fine with her but I went off her this episode. Little things were getting to me but what finalized it for me was toward the later part of this episode where she made everything about herself. I also get condescending or "I'm superior" vibes from her.

I think we liked Vanessa in the beginning because she seemed to carry herself with a bit more dignity than the rest of the herd, but that's all over now. Even if the editors are trying to keep us from seeing it, we can hear her desperate squeals for attention during some of the group scenes, and yes she seems to think she has already won and can begin nagging Nick.

What does Nick want?  Nick  says he wants a, "strong, adventurous, raw woman."  Yes, he loved Andi, outspoken, gun shooting, attorney at law, Andi.  But then he fell in love with Kaitlyn, raucous, dirty talking, sex panther, Kaitlyn.  Neither were shrinking violets but the main thing they had in common was that they were stars of their season. He likes the chase, yet the women who seem to have hung back and waited for him to come after then, (Whitney, Astrid, etc.) are all gone.  Danielle M. has been quiet since their one on one and he doesn't seem to be that interested anymore.  Lauren hung back and waited for Ben to chase her, and he did.  I don't see Nick really doing that with anyone.

I think Nick is sensitive, but a lot of sensitive people are far more sensitive to their own feelings than anyone else's.  His final scene in this episode was a good example of that with Nick saying nothing to make the women feel hopeful or comforted, while making sure they all saw his streaming tears.

The Josh-man who wants to control and direct his woman,  and the Nick-man who wants a  woman to motivate him, correct him when he's wrong, and comfort his tears  are both looking for unhealthy "parent/child" relationships.  Ideally we find an adult/adult partnership where we love and encourage each other, but neither one has to lead the other.

[In2You]

I don't think the ladies were wrong for not immediately jumping up to wipe his tears. None of them are his mother and what he did was kind of selfish. 

[truthaboutluv]

I actually think the women didn't move towards Nick because they probably weren't sure if they should which is another reason this whole show is strange. They're supposedly dating this man but can't just walk up and hug him because maybe the other women will be annoyed and see it as a ploy to get time with Nick. The whole thing is ridiculous really. 

1 hour ago, JudyObscure said:

Even if the editors are trying to keep us from seeing it, we can hear her desperate squeals for attention during some of the group scenes, and yes she seems to think she has already won and can begin nagging Nick.

I found Vanessa's screaming answers on the boat really weird but I honestly haven't seen her nagging of Nick. In fact, they haven't shown much of them in a number of episodes. Last week she was on the group date and we didn't see them talk once. And even this episode, we only saw a second of her telling him things were difficult. 

Edited February 8, 2017 by truthaboutluv

[waving feather]

What a depression episode. Nick is so depressing. He needs a shrink because he is middle-aged dude who doesn't know what he wants. He has a vague fantasy idea of it, but that's pretty much it. 

What I didn't like about Vanessa is how attention seeking she is in group settings. I mean, I guess she really likes Nick and wants him to notice her. Or that she already knew she is #1 in Nick's heart and expects more attention. I don't know what it says about me because I am much older than her, but I would rather hang out with Corinne than with Vanessa. If we are comparing the two most attention seeking women on this show.

1 hour ago, JudyObscure said:

I think Nick is sensitive, but a lot of sensitive people are far more sensitive to their own feelings than anyone else's.  His final scene in this episode was a good example of that with Nick saying nothing to make the women feel hopeful or comforted, while making sure they all saw his streaming tears.

Exactly what I thought. He came in crying looking for sympathy like a kid, ensured all of them knew how broken up he was in the process. I have nothing against crying but that whole scene was too "woe is me" pity party. If he was more sensitive to the women, he should have known that little display will not help them, who are the ones having to fight for his attention. That's a turn-off to me.

[ribboninthesky1]

47 minutes ago, In2You said:

I don't think the ladies were wrong for not immediately jumping up to wipe his tears. None of them are his mother and what he did was kind of selfish. 

Agreed.  I watched that scene again, and I probably wouldn't have had much to say, either.  

1 hour ago, Rainsong said:

5) The point of all this is that a Bachelor who really wanted to see his favorite or simply have some unscripted adult time would get only token resistance even if it tipped off who the contenders were.  Has Nick been so institutionalized through multiple Bachelor seasons that he doesn't even consider sneaking away with one or more of them?  He himself has been the Bachelorette's bit on the side so surely he must know the doors may be shut but they are never locked.  Is this merely another facet of his submissive personality?  Or is it an unmistakable, if unspoken, sign that he simply isn't strongly attracted to any of them even if he fulfills his contract by selecting a final two and pretends to be smitten?

My opinion of the bolded? I think Nick is extremely camera aware precisely because of this.  What others perceive as sensitive, I see as more "I've done this and know it well, so I want to be perceived in a positive way."  Doesn't make him a bad guy, but sensitive? Eh, not really seeing it. 

On a separate note, I had a different take on Rachel and Nick's conversation.  To me, it felt like she could barely express herself before he started going on about himself and panic attacks and such.  I did note how much of her side was about her feelings, and not her challenging him on his interactions with other women, assuming we didn't see a heavily edited version.  If Vanessa getting upset derailed the beach interactions, then that would tell me a lot as a contestant.  I'm unsure that she (Rachel) likes Nick that much, but maybe I'm missing it. 

Nick is totally leading other women on.  That's the setup of the show.  It's inevitable.  It's not like he gets to choose more than one person to date and explore things in more depth at the end.  It's either one woman, or no one.  Well, really, one woman - I don't think we'll ever see a lead choose no one ever again, especially a male lead.

In truth, I don't think brunette Danielle could have said anything profound to avoid being eliminated. Heck, he seemed more upset about it than she did.

1 hour ago, JudyObscure said:

The Josh-man who wants to control and direct his woman,  and the Nick-man who wants a  woman to motivate him, correct him when he's wrong, and comfort his tears  are both looking for unhealthy "parent/child" relationships.  Ideally we find an adult/adult partnership where we love and encourage each other, but neither one has to lead the other.

Yeah, I remember not being a fan of Josh or Nick during Andi's season.  On the surface, Nick comes across as the better partner when compared to Josh.  But I don't care for either type.  

[waving feather]

One thing I did like about this episode: Corinne taking her regular afternoon nap on the beach while the other women were emo, looking out at the ocean. 

I relate because I love afternoon naps too! Non drunken ones, though. 

[jumper sage]

12 hours ago, JenE4 said:

36 is definitely middle aged. I say this as a middle-aged 42-year-old.

OMG!  I am turning 55 and just recently started feeling middle age.  I work out and eat healthy, no fast food EVER and eat clean.  I thought 40s were one of the best eras of life.  You have more money, you are more settled and can sit back and enjoy yourself on your terms.  At 42 you should be ripe and enjoying life.  I have never wanted to go backwards.  Teen years?  Hell no!  20s? All that angst and paying your dues, sure college was fun but most of us had to work and go to school so only fun one night a week.  30s?  Ok, better, raising your family getting finances prepped for a good life, the lack of sleep because of kids........  40s?  Awesome!  50s?  Not bad, need a little more work with health to keep healthy but doable.  I am going to 100, easily.

4 hours ago, bleiby73 said:

When Nick was having his sobbing drama fit at the end of the episode, I saw Kristina staring at him, emotionless. She was probably thinking, Are you kidding me? I had to eat fu**ing lipstick when I was a kid and you're the one crying over which woman to pick? These are not problems, dude. Call me when you have an actual problem.

Right?  He is such a non masculine man.  God I can't stand him.  I hate this show!  It's like a car crash, I can't look away.  See ya next week.

[peachmangosteen]

This episode was truly hilarious. The volleyball date might have been my favorite thing ever. I was rolling. I think I actually am glad that the editing was so horrible and left out the reasons why they all went nuts because it just made the whole thing funnier.

As for the bathing suits, I personally hated all of them except Rachel's. I hated Vanessa's bathing suit so much. Like it irrationally offends me how ugly I find it lol.

Edited February 8, 2017 by peachmangosteen

[Zung Li]

5 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

This episode was truly hilarious. The volleyball date might have been my favorite thing ever. I was rolling. I think I actually am glad that the editing was so horrible and left out the reasons why they all went nuts because it just made the whole thing funnier.

As for the bathing suits, I personally hated all of them except Rachel's. I hated Vanessa's bathing suit so much. Like it irrationally offends me how ugly I find it lol.

I agree- I liked that the editing just made it seem like Nick was trying to have a fun game of volleyball (if there could be such a thing) and the women just lost their shit for no reason. It was the perfect segue into the nighttime part of the date when Jasmine has her psychotic break with reality.  

Corinne's suit looked like it might be underwear and Jasmine seems to wear the smallest bottoms she can find but I was impressed that the others' managed to hold everything in during an unexpected sporting competition. That's one of the things that drives me nuts on Survivor- women wearing unsupportive bathing suits when they know they are going to do serious physical challenges.

[seasick]

I agree that Nick has been a total production puppet and the girls are getting fed up with it.   

The girls appear bored beyond words, frustrated and so Done with sitting around waiting to be herded off to some dumb activity every few days.  The looks on their faces when Nick came in crying was total disgust and even "Dear God this is more than I can take" frustration. It appeared to be another production number-- once again all about "Making the Show" and nothing about Nick and the girls getting to know each other and find 'love'.

This show has become just a 'Show' -- a Farce(in the true sense of the word)-- that 'finding love" is really just a joke now.  It's now only the excuse-- really-- to feature 'shocking villain-floozies' , embarrassingly stupid girl-fights and rivalries,  "Jaws" music-melodramatic returns of the humiliated and rejected--etc etc.   This is a soap-opera now, not a reality show.about finding a match.  

Despite the show's recent reputation I think many do come to give love a try.  I keep tuning in (like an idiot) hoping that that old true romance and suspense and real feelings will return.  But anyone who came for that  obviously feels used as they are simply also-rans in this soap-opera.  

 Jasmine has shown that she tends to drink too much on the show--(probably from boredom)  OF COURSE she was saved for last and tuned-up by production for her talk with NIck--one that regardless of what she said was pre-determined to be a send-off.  Her dumb drunken blather was a gift.  

And the second 2 on 1 was also a predetermined elimination.  They actually thought we'd give a crap and be 'shocked' when he sent Danielle packing when they assumed we were so full of hearts and flowers over 'their connection' (wrong!)  Thus Nick's crying jag that follows in the "Script". ('If I could send her home--someone with whom I thought I had this great connection, will I EVER find love???   BO-hooo )  I know all the women have Had It with the bullshit and Nick's obvious unabashed willingness to just be a player in this play--and not appearing to give one crap about them or 'finding love".  

Next! of course the date with the platinum 'vagine'  (I was actually begging for this--hoping it MIGHT cure Nick's totally LIMP-DICK  performance as the bachelor.  I doubt it. )  The whole thing is just pathetic.

[kingshearte]

15 hours ago, wings707 said:

I never thought to question Kristina's story until some here mentioned that it sounded off.  I did wonder what a 5 year old girl has to do to find her way to an orphanage.  Wander the streets until someone realizes she is alone with nowhere to go?  Unlikely.  She was giving the overview perhaps and leaving out details just to give him a rough outline of what happened is my guess.  

She was also five years old when this happened, so she's probably relying on some vague memories of her own, complemented by things others have probably told her about that period. For example, when Nick asked if it was just her and her mom, and she said "as far as I know." Initially, that seems like a really weird answer to that question, but, say, if her mom lived with some guy (her father perhaps) until she was two, she wouldn't necessarily remember that, and no one she met after arriving at the orphanage would necessarily know about it either. So "as far as I know" actually isn't all that absurd an answer, given the context. And as for how exactly she got to the orphanage, maybe she doesn't really know exactly herself. Maybe she wandered the streets a bit as I think someone suggested is an actual possibility, or maybe her mom took her there and dumped her. A five-year-old doesn't necessarily remember all the details. I think I'd actually find her story more questionable if all the dots about this period of her life were precisely connected.

[jumper sage]

1 hour ago, seasick said:

I keep tuning in (like an idiot)

You and me both.

Who said they slept with Nick's friend?  I missed that.  Damn, now I have to rewatch this crap.

[truthaboutluv]

Jasmine said it when he eliminated her but it was edited out of the episode. 

[Lemons]

Kristina was born in the early 90's when the Soviet Union was falling apart. Extreme poverty and abandonment were common. I would think she wasn't the first small child to be found wandering the streets and taken to an orphanage. 

As for nick, I think he's a big dud as a bachelor.  He's not that good looking, he's not wealthy, he's not interesting, he might want to move back to the Midwest.  

The women seemed to be saying all the key words they are supposed to be saying, but none seems that sincere.  Almost by rote, you hear "I think I'm falling for you" etc but no real emotion.  

They need to stop casting the most recent losers and find some real desirable bachelors  

[Jax7917]

having nick as the bachelor was just a mistake. They cast him because he had a different aura than the past bachelors, but he really is coming off as a dud. He is way too fame hungry at this point, and won't last with whoever he picks because he's not looking for love. He is looking for another reality show to be on. I honestly think the best and most realistic reason to be a participant in this show would be to make friends. More friendships come out of this show than relationships do. Bachelor in paradise is way more entertaining because it gives you  a chance to see who is actually into who, without the one lead person pretending to be into all these women only to pick the one he knew he'd pick from day one. On BIP there's more options and everything doesn't seem so rehearsed (although im sure much of it is). I get the fact that without the bachelor pretending to be into everyone, there will be no show. But for god sake someone please amend the script for just one season.

Edited February 8, 2017 by Jaclyn88

[TheFinalRose]

I kinda think Nick is failing too, although I like him. I really had no interest in Luke, but at one point during this episode I wondered, hmmmm, would this be a better show if we were watching Luke stand on the beach talking about his feelings at this point? Then, I wondered, would it be a better show if it were Chase standing on the beach talking about his feelings at this point? My conclusion was: Yes, it would be a better show if it were Chase standing on the beach. I think he would have been more into it.

[Mabinogia]

1 minute ago, TheFinalRose said:

Then, I wondered, would it be a better show if it were Chase standing on the beach talking about his feelings at this point? My conclusion was: Yes, it would be a better show if it were Chase standing on the beach. I think he would have been more into it.

My answer would be no, because at this point they really are all interchangeable. I think a Chase or Luke season would have been exactly the same as a Ben season or a whoever it was before him and before him. Nick might be screwing up royally, but his season is at least slightly different than most.

Bottom line is, I think it's time for me to give up this crap. It's like watching repeats but with different actors in the roles.

[JenE4]

2 hours ago, jumper sage said:

OMG!  I am turning 55 and just recently started feeling middle age.  I work out and eat healthy, no fast food EVER and eat clean.  I thought 40s were one of the best eras of life.  You have more money, you are more settled and can sit back and enjoy yourself on your terms.  At 42 you should be ripe and enjoying life.  I have never wanted to go backwards.  Teen years?  Hell no!  20s? All that angst and paying your dues, sure college was fun but most of us had to work and go to school so only fun one night a week.  30s?  Ok, better, raising your family getting finances prepped for a good life, the lack of sleep because of kids........  40s?  Awesome!  50s?  Not bad, need a little more work with health to keep healthy but doable.  I am going to 100, easily.

Right?  He is such a non masculine man.  God I can't stand him.  I hate this show!  It's like a car crash, I can't look away.  See ya next week.

We're on the same page. I didn't mean to imply that middle age is a BAD thing. I completely agree that my 40s, thus far, have been the best decade of my life. You're right that you enter a period where you don't have that angst of youth of sweating the small stuff and you're typically at a more stable point financially, too, to enjoy life. I also am more healthy than I ever have been--but that's where the "being middle aged" thing came into play. Once I hit 39, my body went haywire with psoriatic arthritis (not as bad before then), and I HAD to get my eating habits/health in check. ;-) Hell, in my 30s I could have eaten an entire cart from room service and all of the cheese pasta Nanny Raquel could make. Now that I'm in my 40s, no cheese or pasta--but I'm healthier than ever because of it. I think we are in total agreement here that there IS a distinct difference between when you enter that age vs what you felt like/acted like before then. I'm not saying it's a bad thing--it's great, actually. When I mentioned Nick's mid-life crisis, I meant that it is usually "something" that makes you realize you're entering a new phase in life, but typically it's just the start of a good life stage. Hooray for middle age! :-) Are Vanessa and/or Rachel over 30? They both seem more mature and intelligent. I don't know what their jobs are, but they seem like they're hard-working, go-getters. Either of them would be a good match for Nick. I think Nick's crying, possible mid-life crisis ;-) is recognizing just how damn young some of these other girls are and they're not in the same life stage that he's in. 

[jumper sage]

@JenE4 - we are on the same page!  I don't want to scare you but in your mid 50s you actually creak.  Here's a tip I got from a 80 year old when I turned 50 - when getting out of bed, stand up and let gravity pull your blood and guts down so you can walk normally down the stairs. ha ha

[truthaboutluv]

34 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

My answer would be no, because at this point they really are all interchangeable.

This. No matter who the lead is, there would be some who hated the season and thought the lead was awful, others who like it, etc. Happens every season and will continue to happen every subsequent season after.  I do think the producers have done an awful job on the editing though this season. There is a lot they are leaving on the cutting room floor and it's making things choppy and uneven. And way too much Corinne. They really overplayed their hands with this character (because that's really what she is at this point). 

Quote

Are Vanessa and/or Rachel over 30? They both seem more mature and intelligent. I don't know what their jobs are, but they seem like they're hard-working, go-getters.

Vanessa's 29 (though I have seen online that she might have had a birthday during filming so she may be 30 now) and Rachel is 31. Vanessa's a special education teacher and Rachel is a litigation lawyer.  

[LBS]

All I really took from this episode is that Nick should be banned forever from buying, wearing, or even thinking of summer tropical clothes.   

[Mabinogia]

54 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

 I do think the producers have done an awful job on the editing though this season. There is a lot they are leaving on the cutting room floor and it's making things choppy and uneven. And way too much Corinne. They really overplayed their hands with this character (because that's really what she is at this point).

A thousand times this. The editing makes no freaking sense.  It started with not ending episodes on the rose ceremony. Now they are cutting girls getting roses on dates. I am so confused as to what is going on half the time. It's not like I'm going to give this crap my undivided attention so making it harder to follow is just going to make me drop out. I'm invested in this season so I will stick it out but this is it for me. (I will, possibly, be in for BIP, but not if Chad is back or Corinne. I am not a fan of the shows idea of entertaining characters). And this ep, the cut major plot points in the volleyball saga. It's like reading a book with half the pages torn out. It's more frustrating than intriguing. Maybe if I cared, I'd be "OMG! What is going to happen next week? I'm on the edge of my seat!" As it is, I forgot all about the Taylor/Corinne drama when this episode started and was all "Oh, wait, that's still happening?"

And I have absolutely no idea how this episode ended, so when the next one starts I'll be playing catch up as to who's there and what is going on. This show shouldn't require that much brain power to follow along.

[slowpoked]

1 hour ago, TheFinalRose said:

I kinda think Nick is failing too, although I like him. I really had no interest in Luke, but at one point during this episode I wondered, hmmmm, would this be a better show if we were watching Luke stand on the beach talking about his feelings at this point? Then, I wondered, would it be a better show if it were Chase standing on the beach talking about his feelings at this point? My conclusion was: Yes, it would be a better show if it were Chase standing on the beach. I think he would have been more into it.

Ugh, no on Luke. Was thankful it wasn't Luke. I don't find him attractive and I'm glad they skipped over JoJo's men for the next lead. 

I was iffy on Nick when they first announced him, because I really thought anyone going on BIP is considered "damaged goods" to TPTB and not "pure" enough to be the next lead. But I think he's still an infinitely better choice than any of JoJo's men. I think at some point during any season, the audience feels like the lead is "failing". Nick isn't the perfect bachelor but eh, he's ok, considering all the other leads the franchise has had in the past. Could do without the Corinne shenanigans and the mumbling, but I do like how he brings up interesting things to talk about to women, like Vanessa, Rachel and Kristina. I like how he seems genuinely interested in talking, and not just leaning in for the kiss when he doesn't like where the conversation is going (like Ben Higgins did). And as much as I find his "connection" with Corinne icky, I also think he genuinely has connections to other ladies with more substance like Vanessa and Rachel, and in long-term he will value those more.