S01.E12: Mindy St. Clair / S01.E13: Michael's Gambit

[Cherry Cola]

Wow.  Shirt.  I'm shocked.  That threw me for a loop.  Michael's eyes were so creepy when he looked at Eleanor after she figures it out.  I never guessed it was an actual bad place, but it always has had a creepy feel to the neighborhood, and in the Michael flashback, I wondered why it was so gloomy where he worked.  Now of course, it makes sense.  

[mammaM]

Evil Michael!!!!!!!! Someone just hand Ted Danson an Emmy now and get it over with, he was brilliant. And as others have said, his laugh will haunt my dreams

[arc]

There was an ad for perfume on the back cover of the baby celebs magazine... the perfume was from Pawnee's Dennis Feinstein.

[pennben]

I just rewatched a few episodes. The show is even funnier knowing the twist. And Michael is just absolutely pure evil in the episodes! A great thing though is that his joy is real, just for reasons different than what we thought. 

[truebluesmoky]

Wait, Tahani was on a magazine cover the day Eleanor died? Hadn't Tahani already been in the Good (Bad) Place for a while when Eleanor arrived?

[arc]

9 minutes ago, truebluesmoky said:

Wait, Tahani was on a magazine cover the day Eleanor died? Hadn't Tahani already been in the Good (Bad) Place for a while when Eleanor arrived?

A very short while. Everyone basically arrived around the same time. Didn't Eleanor snark in an earlier episode about how Tahani hosted the welcome party despite not really being any more senior in residency to the neighborhood?

[futurechemist]

I didn't see the twist coming.  I think I need to binge watch the season again to get a new perspective on it.

The twist did remind me of an old Twilight Zone episode "A nice place to visit" where a petty criminal winds up in heaven, only to realize getting everything he wants is actually torture and he's really in hell. 

I'm assuming that the medium place is real.  It made sense that Michael wasn't in Mindy's video, because even if he wasn't lying, the current neighborhood was his first assignment so he wouldn't have been Mindy's architect.  Which would mean the train system is real, so at some point Janet could take them to another good place, right?    Of course Michael and Shawn having lost Eleanor could have been a fakeout to torture Chidi and Tahani.

I do want to know more about this afterlife system.  Michael stealing Janet means that good and bad architects are enemies, or at least they aren't friends?  So it's not like some universal system where all the immortal beings are working together to provide appropriate justice to dead people.  That conflict could be interesting.

I can see a lot of options for season 2.  Of course, the first time Eleanor lets someone know about the note that isn't Janet, Jason, Chidi, or Tahani, then Michael will immediately know what's going on.  In fact, even her asking around who Chidi is would be suspicious.  Then again, Eleanor is back in "keep everyone from finding out about her being a mistake" mode, so that would work to her advantage.

[King of Birds]

Okay so I've been watching but not keeping up on this forum. Last night's ep was a shocker. A Jaw-dropper. And I haven't been keeping the eps on my dvr so will try to re-watch some online.

But my key question is- Trevor (Adam Scott) still is THE WORST, right? Or does Michael exist on the same level? I just have a hard time trying to figure out this 'bad place' in comparison with the other Bad Places. 

Also, with Mike Schur, there are no names that are not well-thought out and referential.  So the power-suit wearing lady by herself in "purgatory" being named Mindy cannot be a coincidence.

[Nailbiter]

20 hours ago, Dots And Stripes said:

 Even if Chidi's indecision was annoying, he still wasn't really a bad person. Tahani did good things for the wrong reason, and while I can see why she wouldn't be an elite good person she still wasn't truly bad.

None of them are truly bad people. Maybe the point the show will end up making is that no one is purely good OR purely bad, and our heroes will eventually tear the whole motherforking' system down.

[Dowel Jones]

One question:  Sean the Judge announces that this hearing was "Case #00003".  I wonder who the first two were.

Quote

They aren't necessarily BAD people, they just aren't good ENOUGH to get into The Good Place.

In the final episode, Eleanor, Chidi, Jason, and Tahani will all team up on a group project, fix a swing in the playground, and earn enough points to move on up.

[ThoughtAFool]

Didn't expect it a be a Bad Place, though we certainly had some "this can't be paradise" hints.  And the idea that anybody who didn't do something spectacularly good like end slavery deserved to be in the bad place (which still stands) I guess is a hint that a merciful deity is NOT in charge...

On a different note: today of all days, I think some of us might want our own cocoon to retreat into when certain events come up in conversation...

[theatremouse]

22 minutes ago, Dowel Jones said:

One question:  Sean the Judge announces that this hearing was "Case #00003".  I wonder who the first two were.

I believe the second one was Mindy. I thought (unless I've remembering it wrong) that Mindy had been in the medium place for 29 years, and when Sean showed up he mentioned having been in his cocoon of goo for 29 years. I took that to be corroboration that Mindy's #2.

[arc]

22 minutes ago, Dowel Jones said:

One question:  Sean the Judge announces that this hearing was "Case #00003".  I wonder who the first two were.

In the final episode, Eleanor, Chidi, Jason, and Tahani will all team up on a group project, fix a swing in the playground, and earn enough points to move on up.

Shawn is a confederate of Michael's, so it's entirely possible that part was made up. But otherwise, yeah, Mindy's probably case #2.

[Kromm]

7 hours ago, axlmadonna said:

I think it was acted for us. As someone said earlier, as a clue to who he really was.

 

I believe that "real" Eleanor mentioned that she had befriended some of the fire creatures when she was in the Bad Place before, which was one reason she was okay with going back.

Yeah, but he was interacting with a Good Place resident who we are now supposed to believe was "in on it". But that resident acted as if all of this was real. Which makes no sense, that behavior, if our four Damned souls weren't around to hear it.

[Kromm]

4 hours ago, muessigkeit said:

Nope, Tahani and Jason are both there to witness that incident. I really can't recall any scene in which we've seen Michael without any of the four main characters (before yesterday's episodes of course.)

Ah okay. I don't have the episode saved.

[CofCinci]

1 hour ago, King of Birds said:

But my key question is- Trevor (Adam Scott) still is THE WORST, right? Or does Michael exist on the same level? I just have a hard time trying to figure out this 'bad place' in comparison with the other Bad Places. 

He might still be THE WORST.  Trevor was the representative for Eleanor's version of Hell at that moment.  In Michael's 'Better Good Place' design, we could see Adam Scott's as a completely different Trevor next season.

[Dowel Jones]

Michael is an architect.  Trevor is perhaps a manager.   Maybe The Bad Place has a hierarchy, or maybe Dilbert is closer to reality than we think.

[Sansophia]

Why are any of you surprised? Good people would be appalled at the selection criteria, good people would mourn the lost. Despite all the calamity Elanor brought to the neighborhood, if they were actually good people, they would do anything they could to shield her from going to the bad place.  I'll admit I was surprised that this was actually a Bad Place, but only because I thought the creators were going for 'The afterlife isn't remotely just anywhere.' So I thought this was a "Good Place" place for self-centered prigs the Celestial Bureaucracy decided were worthy. But it kills me that Michael is a fake. That's a body blow. And while I would rather Micheal being conned instead of part of the con, I love it.

How are they going to pull this off? Because it's either reset season after season or it becomes a prison break with a clear arc.

By the ay, what WAS supposed to happen is that black human rights guy was supposed to get them off on a technicality. He almost did before Elanor shut him down.

[arc]

Quote

But my key question is- Trevor (Adam Scott) still is THE WORST, right? Or does Michael exist on the same level? 

Eleanor's confession at the end of ep 7, "The Eternal Shriek", is where Michael's plan started unraveling. Until that point, the four humans were reliably torturing each other. Almost everything after that - Trevor, Shawn, Real Eleanor - was improvisation on the Bad Place's part. Probably on Michael's part, as the architect and local authority. Shawn appears to be a colleague or possibly underling of Michael's in the office flashbacks, after all. So anyways, I'm guessing Trevor is an architect as well (since he appears in that Medium Place video) and probably has more experience than first-timer Michael.

[Traveller519]

4 hours ago, mammaM said:

Evil Michael!!!!!!!! Someone just hand Ted Danson an Emmy now and get it over with, he was brilliant. And as others have said, his laugh will haunt my dreams

We can dream, but Schur is cursed in writing some of the best supporting characters, having actors give them full life, and them not getting Emmy recognition

[loki567]

I'm down. Let the rebellion against a surprisingly shitty afterlife police begin. 

[loki567]

12 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

Michael has proven that "bad" people can improve themselves even after death. I'd love it if that is what he was trying to do all along, but IDK. I do think his fascination with things like suspenders was true though. I think he has an affection for humans. It's just his job to design hell. Maybe he wants to change the system.

My mind was totally blown away! I had chills. I also admit to crying more than once. I love these characters so much and it will be fun to see how they all get together this time, because they will, and they will prove that even the dead deserve a chance to save themselves.

I think you nailed it. Long-term, the show needs to keep Ted Danson around and they can't if he's evil. And even the title of the episode, "Michael's Gambit," suggests more going on. Literally the definition of gambit from merriam-webster.com:

1:  a chess opening in which a player risks one or more pawns or a minor piece to gain an advantage in position

2a (1) :  a remark intended to start a conversation or make a telling point (2) :  topicb :  a calculated move :  stratagem

So basically Michael's trying to find a way to circumvent the rules to convince the other Bad Place people that there can be some form of redemption in the afterlife. Maybe getting all these various bad people to play roles in the fake Good Place to try and get them invested in human lives and struggles. 

[CinAZ]

1 hour ago, Sansophia said:

By the ay, what WAS supposed to happen is that black human rights guy was supposed to get them off on a technicality. He almost did before Elanor shut him down.

I think that the human rights guy was an 'actor' from Michaels group, just like the 'good' Eleanor. They were just there to poke and bother the main 4 for entertainment of Michaels group. I think that if bad Eleanor didn't figure it out, the human rights guy would have come up with an exception that allowed everyone to stay for a while, so the main 4 could fight among themselves again. 

The episode was great- it really surprised me. I didn't expect that kind of ending. I hope there is a season 2, do we know if it has been renewed yet?

Edited January 21, 2017 by CinAZ

[secnarf]

19 minutes ago, CinAZ said:

I think that the human rights guy was an 'actor' from Michaels group, just like the 'good' Eleanor. They were just there to poke and bother the main 4 for entertainment of Michaels group. I think that if bad Eleanor didn't figure it out, the human rights guy would have come up with an exception that allowed everyone to stay for a while, so the main 4 could fight among themselves again. 

The episode was great- it really surprised me. I didn't expect that kind of ending. I hope there is a season 2, do we know if it has been renewed yet?

As I pointed out before, he DID come in with an obscure rule and said that he found a way for everyone to stay. Eleanor just shut him down and told him she didn't need it, because she had just figured everything out.

[theatremouse]

Right, but he was just as fake as Vicki-Eleanor. IE if she hadn't figured it out and waved him off, the difference is the lack of mind-wipe. They'd still be exactly where they were, in a place intended to enable them to torture each other, with Michael et al nudging the situations so they're all constantly stressed out. Just like she said, they were all going to end up staying no matter what.

[secnarf]

I know he was fake - that was the point.

If Eleanor was a bit quicker (or it had occurred to her that erasing her memory was an option) she would have been better off keeping her mouth shut. Of course, I have no idea how she could have predicted that, but it might have occurred to her that she should get a better handle on the situation first.

Even after thinking it over for a while, I'm not sure I liked the ending. I think the idea of erasing their memories (and all of the growth and relationships that come with it) is what is giving me the most trouble. I will certainly watch a second season, at least the beginning of it, but I'm incredibly wary about where this could go.

[rue721]

On 1/19/2017 at 9:54 PM, Mockingbird said:

Cheering for Eleanor's improvement was futile as she was never going to actually be allowed to keep that growth.

It's possible that she will be able to keep at least some of that growth.

If Janet learns every time she gets a reboot, maybe Eleanore (and Chidi, Tahani, and Jason) will, too?

On 1/20/2017 at 0:26 AM, quangtran said:

Tahani had ill-intentions despite doing lots of good. Chidi accomplished nothing despite only ever having good intentions. I don't buy the idea that they are BOTH bad people.

They weren't bad people. They just didn't score enough Good People Points to make it into a real Good Place.

Although, honestly, they probably still scored more than they would have if they'd known that there WAS a score. I mean, it's kind of hard to be genuinely altruistic when you know that there is literally a point value given to everything you do, and if you don't win, you get tortured for eternity.

Can you imagine how much more maddeningly indecisive Chidi would have been if he'd known that there was a massive ethical scoreboard?

I wonder why they can still earn/lose points in the afterlife? Is there ANOTHER afterlife that they'll get sent to if they die (or something) in this afterlife?

On 1/20/2017 at 1:05 AM, Fiftyninth said:

I am just realizing we should have seen this coming when Michael kicked that dog into the sun back in the first or second episode!

It was Michael throwing away Chidi's life's work that started making me wonder about him!

23 hours ago, possibilities said:

Jason seems stupid as hell, and probably had zero guidance at any time, sort of the mirror image of Eleanor being smart with no guidance.

That's pretty interesting.

It's strange, the only person who really gives or gets any guidance is Chidi. And he gets/gives it via philosophers, not out of some kind of personal wisdom or anything.

I mean, because Tahani didn't really get any guidance, either.

I'm kind of bummed that Eleanor had legitimately terrible parents, though. I liked her "medium place" idea, and I wish her parents had been "medium" bad, too. Although I did crack up at her mom coming in saying, "I drove here as fast as I could!" while sipping rosé through a straw. What an asshole!

19 hours ago, Kromm said:

As for Chidi? He had friends... but I agree. He was bad for them. He sucked the life out of every room he was in.

That's true! Eleanore was probably the only person whose life he made better.

15 hours ago, MsNewsradio said:

The only thing that I find sad is that the Michael we've known up until this point was an act - I hate to lose that innocent version of him. At the same time, I can certainly see a few ways they could "redeem" him as the show goes forward.

The thing is that Michael may have had bad motivations, but he actually did a lot of good!

Eleanor, Tahani, Chidi, and Jason not only grew as people in "The Good Place," they also seemed happier. Jason found love, Chidi was able to actually do some good instead of just talking about it, Tahani became less insecure and more willing to share the spotlight, Eleanor became leaps and bounds less selfish.

Since Michael wasn't trying to score good points when he did all that good, does that mean that he actually did score lots of good points by doing it?!

Maybe Michael will start growing and becoming happier as a result of spending time in "The Good Place," too, just like the others have. Maybe he's not a lost cause?

10 hours ago, Destiny007 said:

She was acting a bit different in the reset scene.  She seemed more calmer than she was the first time.  I wonder if there will be a twist that she remembers something about the first time.  Maybe not all of it, but something.

Yes, I thought so, too. I don't think she remembers being in "The Good Place" before, but I don't think that she entirely went back to the person she was before she learned how to be less selfish, either.

Michael erased the memories, but I don't think he could entirely erase how she herself changed because of what happened. Just like he can reboot Janet, but he can't make her lose all the lessons she'd learned before the reboot.

9 hours ago, SoothingDave said:

Not sure what the Medium Place was all about.  I wish that worked into the resolution somehow (other than just being a hiding place.)

Why couldn't Jason and Janet figure out how to have sex?  Jason can't be that stupid.  Is it cause she's a robot? ("I'm not a robot.")  

Maybe Jason knows how sex literally works, but he's still having fun "figuring it out" with Janet? ;) I mean, they're creating their own Kamasutra with all those diagrams! It doesn't look UN-fun.

Maybe Mindy was stuck in the medium place because nobody else wanted to claim her. Maybe even the Bad Place people couldn't stand her, so they stuck her there so they wouldn't have to deal with her!

Or maybe she was just so self-involved that they didn't even know how to break through her fog of self-absorption enough to actually torture her!

4 hours ago, Sansophia said:

Good people would be appalled at the selection criteria, good people would mourn the lost. Despite all the calamity Elanor brought to the neighborhood, if they were actually good people, they would do anything they could to shield her from going to the bad place.

Yes, I agree, the people in "The Good Place" were pretty insufferable and callous. In retrospect, I guess that was a clue!

But I guess it's kind of hard to know how good people might actually act (within the world of this show). All the "bad" stuff that the show brings up is more obnoxious and/or tacky than actually BAD. Maybe all the "good" stuff is like that, too, and is mostly about being charming and tasteful ;)

[wilnil]

18 hours ago, withanaich said:

Personally, I would have written something more vague like "Eleanor - Find Chidi. You can only trust him, Jianyu, Tahani, and Janet." But Eleanor didn't know how much time she had (even if we did because it's TV), so she had to quickly think of something that would circumvent Michael's plan, while taking into account that she would be re-set and not acting like "herself" (or at least not the "self" she'd come to be in the fake Good Place), not to mention thinking of a way to hide the note.

Exactly -- she had to take the time to figure out what to write and where to put the note, and she had no idea when Michael and Shawn (IMDB's spelling) were coming back.

Saying "Find Chidi" is the best short piece of advice -- even if she loses all the moral ground she gained the first time around, she can relearn it from Chidi once she finds him ... and that could give her the insight she needs to figure out the "Good Place" again.

Re Chidi in Hell: My feeling is that all four of them, in their own way, were intensely selfish -- Eleanor and Jason in more typical ways (she with the "we're all in it for ourselves, and let's keep it that way," he with his dumbass form of total self-indulgence), and Tahani in the way we've all seen (fruitless efforts to appear as "good" -- actually as high-status -- as her sister, who probably isn't destined for a Good Place either -- the whole family actually seemed status-driven).

Chidi is sort of like Tahani in that way: He was trying to live his life in accordance with what all his studies would label Good, as if he were trying to pass some metaphysical final exam, and never pulling his head far enough out of the texts to notice his effects on other people -- he, too, was all about himself. So not only was he trying to be "Good" in the wrong way, but he failed at it.

Edited January 21, 2017 by wilnil

[Grischa]

12 hours ago, futurechemist said:

I do want to know more about this afterlife system.  Michael stealing Janet means that good and bad architects are enemies, or at least they aren't friends?

I thought about that and maybe the good people would have given Michael a good Janet if he had asked, asking just didn't occur to him being evil so he stole one and the good people didn't mind because Janet's don't seem to be rare or special.

In Mindy's medium place video the good architect seemed annoyed with Trevor but that could be personal and not her general attitude to the bad people. I mean, Trevor is pretty annoying, even evil Michael was never as crass as Trevor. So maybe good and bad afterlife people can be friends or at least friendly with each other. When they fought over Mindy they were able to compromise after all.

[AllyB]

I was thinking about Mindy's medium place and was considering how medium you'd find it would be completely depend on the time period you died in. Someone from 1937 would have found Mindy's 80s mediumness quite heaven like, with the jukebox filled with easy listening musical, lots of novels and their own colour movies to watch at home whenever they like. It would have been like magic. If Eleanor had picked the things she wanted in her medium place she's probably have asked for Netflix/Prime/Hulu, etc, a good kindle, and a laptop/tablet for internet browsing. Then Trevor would probably have region locked her streaming services to the Swedish package so she'd have had to read subtitles and have a very limited selection of box sets and movies. Her kindle would have been cracked, she'd have needed a clip on light for it and would have been full of young adult sci-fi/fantasy and 'women's' psychological thrillers.. Her internet service would be very slow and the screen would keep freezing and obviously she wouldn't be able to contribute to any discussions on earth. She'd only be able to watch unboxing videos on youtube and she'd lose the wifi signal at the climax of any song she listened to. But it would still be fantastical and heavenly to Mindy with her VHS tapes and water marked books.

[Mabinogia]

7 hours ago, rue721 said:

It's possible that she will be able to keep at least some of that growth.

If Janet learns every time she gets a reboot, maybe Eleanore (and Chidi, Tahani, and Jason) will, too?

Ooh, that's brilliant! I don't think they are going to be exactly the same as they were at the beginning of season 1. Eleanor already seems slightly different in her reactions to everything. I don't for a second think the show has completely reset them back to their ep 1 state. I think that, if the show makes it several seasons we will see our beloved foursome growing a little each time until they are truly ready for the real good place. And because I love Michael so much, I believe that is his actual goal, or it will be now. I think he is truly fascinated by us humans and seeing how these four changed each other might give him the epiphany that his "good place" could be used not to torture but to give a second chance to change your fate.

Of course I could be totally wrong, Michael is pure evil and we will repeat season 1 over and over. But I doubt it. The creative team have already proven they are much better than that.

[Captain Carrot]

Caught the episode on OnDemand last night, and I thought I had the resolution figured out when Shawn said that Chidi and Tahani were going to The Bad Place based on their actions in the afterlife. I assumed it would be pointed out that if their actions counted against them, then Eleanor and Jason's actions counted towards them deserving to be in The Good Place. The idea that is was just another inconsistency pointing to the true nature of "The Good Place" freaked me out a little bit. I'm going to have to watch the whole season again to see if I can catch all the clues.

I'm also wondering how many people were aware of Mike Schur's big reveal from the beginning, because I wasn't aware of any big spoilers before the show aired. 

[tominboston]

I'm really enjoying reading everyone's comments on this episode. Myself, I'm still really disappointed that Michael turned out to be an evil manipulator, and if the show gets a second season then knowing that will completely change how I view the other characters interactions with him. There were plenty of hints that The Good Place was kind of messed up in some way, but we were led to believe that while Michael he had to follow some rules he didn't want to hurt anybody, and now we're told it was really the exact opposite. It undermines so much of the basic good mood I felt from the show. I can deal with the concept of blanking everyone's memory and having them start the process all over again, but now it looks like they'll be trying to cope without any allies except the other three humans and the wonderful Janet (who doesn't seem to know herself about the big scam since she wasn't programmed to recognize it). Oh well.

[cpcathy]

I rewatched the episode because my husband was talking all the way through it the first time, and I loved it even more. I trust Schur will do what he needs to to make us care about everyone again, and NBC would be foolish not to give it a second season after all the buzz it's getting now. 

[clack]

We still have much to learn about how the Afterlife System is structured.

Is the Bad Place a literal Hell, where damned souls are sentenced to eternal punishment? I can think of all sorts of alternate possibilities : for instance it's a sort of boot camp where souls go to shape up to prepare for reincarnation.

Is there a clue in the respective ages of our 4 Bad Place inhabitants? Why do they all seem to be around 30? And why does their torment revolve around almost but not quite connecting with their putative soulmates? Is that really such a torture? Have the 4 been especially chosen for each other, or is it more random than that?

If we go meta, is the Bad Place just being trapped in a sitcom that features repetitive minor conflicts, with Michael as the showrunner? What's the Good Place? A movie career?

[theatremouse]

15 minutes ago, clack said:

And why does their torment revolve around almost but not quite connecting with their putative soulmates? Is that really such a torture? Have the 4 been especially chosen for each other, or is it more random than that?

I thought Michael pretty much said he'd chosen those four specifically for each other. I also don't think the torment all revolves around almost but not quite with the soul mates. I think that angle was mostly there to torment Tahani, but once the construct was in place, could be utilized to put Chidi and Eleanor together and they thought would result in them tormenting each other. But it's not because E+C were especially susceptible to issues relating to soul-mates or lack thereof. It's just an easy way to force the four who supposedly were to torment each other to be around each other. Which clearly wasn't the ideal plan given that the reset involves keeping them farther apart at the beginning.

[Sakura12]

I loved the twist. I never even thought they were in the bad place, but it makes sense. Eleanor and Jason were constantly worried about being found out and going to the bad place. As for Tahani and Chidi they still had all their insecurities and worries they had when they were alive. If they were truly in the good place you'd think that would go away. 

I did like that Eleanor did point out that while their personalities would annoy one another, they did form real friendships and we're bettering each other. 

I'm going to go with what they learned is still there and they just have to find each other to remember it. 

[stillshimpy]

17 hours ago, Dowel Jones said:

One question:  Sean the Judge announces that this hearing was "Case #00003".  I wonder who the first two were.

I guess Mindy St. Clair (neutral zone lady in the aqua power-suit) was one and then whoever the guy from Calgary was who guessed everything right?  Although, I'm not sure why he would have had a trial.   

Also, it turned out the Sean/Shawn was actually just one of Michael's coworkers in what appeared to be hell's workshop, he hadn't been asleep in goo for 50 years, or however long he said, they were just faking his role as the judge.  So I'm not sure we're supposed to believe there were other cases. 

I can see I've got company in the "liked it but it also makes me sad that Michael's evil".  Jason is meant to have stopped learning at the age of 7, Eleanor wasn't properly raised and didn't bother to grow as an adult, Tahani was also just trying to get the love and attention of her parents as much as anything.  I don't think we know anything about Chidi's parents, do we?  

I'm just wondering if rather than being a straight-up bad place this area isn't the second-chance place?  If 3/4s of the official residents are mostly just comprised of people trying to meet their childhood emotional needs via behaviors that are wrong but will step up and do the right thing if given the right circumstances and prompting, they're basically just kind of parenting each other.  

It's just in the nature vs. nurture, none of them are inherently bad.  It still doesn't make sense that they would warrant eternal torture.  Eleanor lashed out at anyone who was trying to get close to her on any level but she's so capable of affection that she kept trying to damn herself to actual hell to save Chidi, who she isn't even romantically in love with so that's just sacrifice for a fairly pure love.  

I guess I'm just trying to figure out a way for Michael to still have decent intent, or to be part of the gang vs. the architect because whereas Ted Danson can play it, it's just much more fun to see him playing that weirdly earnest thing.  

Edited January 21, 2017 by stillshimpy

[Rinaldo]

11 hours ago, rue721 said:

I'm kind of bummed that Eleanor had legitimately terrible parents, though. I liked her "medium place" idea, and I wish her parents had been "medium" bad, too.

I thought the show, and Eleanor herself later, dealt with that well, pointing out that bad parents aren't a lifelong "it's not my fault" card. Though Vicki/Eleanor turned out to be fake, stories like hers do happen -- people from rotten environments who make themselves into good people despite everything -- and Original Eleanor had her chances to make other choices.

[Kel Varnsen]

20 hours ago, mammaM said:

Evil Michael!!!!!!!! Someone just hand Ted Danson an Emmy now and get it over with, he was brilliant. And as others have said, his laugh will haunt my dreams

I could easily see Danson taking home the emmy. I mean he played a kind of goofy nice guy who transitioned basically into a devil. And it all worked and was funny. Plus emmy voters love familiarity, so voting for Sam Malone from Cheers I think could be an easy choice for a lot of voters.

[rue721]

14 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

I guess I'm just trying to figure out a way for Michael to still have decent intent, or to be part of the gang vs. the architect because whereas Ted Danson can play it, it's just much more fun to see him playing that weirdly earnest thing.  

I think Michael seems like he could at least become a better person. Like the others, it seemed like he was treated like a throwaway person in his "real" life (at the office), and he wasn't really close to anyone. Maybe having relationships with other people will change him like it changed the others, at least eventually.

Also, it's just oddly endearing to me that Michael's idea of torture is to set people up to subtly aggravate each others' insecurities for a thousand years. He's a bad person, but he's not actually an obnoxious or callous or oblivious person the way that even Eleanor or Tahani's actual parents are. Maybe his thoughtfulness could be his saving grace (or his undoing, as far as being a torturer goes), even though he's been using it for "evil ends" so far.

I guess my point is, Michael seems like he has the same insecurities as his "guests," so I think maybe there's hope for him, too. Although, maybe not! Maybe this is just who he is. Eh, could be worse. He could be irritating, incorrigible, and solipsic as well as evil ;)

[secnarf]

1 hour ago, stillshimpy said:

Also, it turned out the Sean/Shawn was actually just one of Michael's coworkers in what appeared to be hell's workshop, he hadn't been asleep in goo for 50 years, or however long he said, they were just faking his role as the judge.  So I'm not sure we're supposed to believe there were other cases.

I thought Shawn actually had some sort of power over Michael - Michael had to plead his case to Shawn and get Shawn's permission in order to get a 'do-over'. And, when Shawn didn't like all of the frozen yogurt, they became pizza places.

[stillshimpy]

12 minutes ago, secnarf said:

I thought Shawn actually had some sort of power over Michael - Michael had to plead his case to Shawn and get Shawn's permission in order to get a 'do-over'. And, when Shawn didn't like all of the frozen yogurt, they became pizza places.

 

 

He's also in the meeting where Michael proposes changing the eternal damnation thing into something more entertaining for the architects and questions some things there also.  So I don't that he made Michael changed anything about the yogurt shops  at Shawn's insistence, as much as they all may have had another meeting to discuss how this would be done and it was always a joint effort.   I think Shawn's another architect and that the only reason Michael seemed subordinate to him was that Michael was still a new architect.  

It's hard to say though because they left several things very open-ended probably to help provide room for another season. 

But Shawn isn't a judge (or at least, most of what he said as the judge was not true), he was in the pitch meeting when Michael outlines his "make it more interesting for us" plan and I thought that Michael's neighborhood was more a collaborative effort for all of them.  That they are all using those four people as playthings for their amusement.

Or not as that's another thing open to interpretation.   

Edited January 21, 2017 by stillshimpy

[CleoCaesar]

Holy shirt that was forking brilliant. I love this show so much.

I can't say I am wild about the memory erasure, since it feels like the characters we knew died. But I'd get on board if the Eleanor & Co. we all know come back, so to speak. I could see season 2 being the gang re-meeting and slowly figuring shit out. But the memory erasures can't become a regular thing as it would get too frustrating.

This is such a rewatchable show - so many tiny comedic moments slip by, even just hilarious split-second facial expressions. Reminds me a lot of 30 Rock in that sense.

THIS BETTER BE RENEWED.

[LADreamr]

It would be interesting if we found out this wasn't the first reboot.  That the first time we met Eleanor something also had to be reset.

[Kel Varnsen]

55 minutes ago, LADreamr said:

It would be interesting if we found out this wasn't the first reboot.  That the first time we met Eleanor something also had to be reset.

I kind of hope they don't do that. The whole idea that reality has already been rebooted at least once would remind me too much of those crappy Matrix sequels.

[possibilities]

I thought they were all going to be sent to the Bad Place because they didn't decide fast enough, and season 2 was going to be The Adventures of the Four Friends in the Bad Place, until they revealed that the whole thing was a set up. I am trying to believe the mindwipe reset won't be bland, because the show has exceeded my expectations in every way so far. But I don't personally have an idea of how to make a 2nd season where Eleanor looks for Chidi and they work through the situation again particularly interesting. I really hope they do it, though, because I want to see what that would be like. It's really fun when the writers have better ideas than I do, and I don't wind up wishing I could re-write the show myself.

RE the comment upthread about "Mindy" possibly being a reference to Kaling, I suppose that means Micahel Schur considers himself an evil genius... or a bureaucrat from hell.

[theatremouse]

I actually kinda of liked the mind-wipe, or I guess, I didn't mind it and based on the few moments we were shown already post-wipe, the vibe I get is this will be not quite Groundhog Day-ey, but maybe...the things I liked best about that conceit? My first thought was that S2 might just remind me of Majora's Mask (except with the explicit time limit). My brain really went to "this is going to be like a giant puzzle for them" and yeah it resets but that's part of it. I feel like I'm not explaining very well, but suffice it to say, I'm interested in seeing how it plays out. Based on what we saw already I have confidence in these writers and there does seem to be a plan, and what's been hinted at so far, I think I'll like it.

Edited January 21, 2017 by theatremouse

[Terrafamilia]

I think the whole "soul mate" thing was just part of the torture set-up. The idea that there is a single perfect partner for you out of the entire world population is actually rather insidious. If there is such a thing as a "soul mate" it is something which you become rather than merely are. For some it may happen more quickly than others but it still takes work to achieve and maintain.

Didn't Michael say that their Janet was built on the foundation upon which all the Janet's were based? I don't think they had to steal a Good Janet but they built their own (having to put up with Bad Janet's who can blame them?). Probably turn out to have done too good a job of it.

[Jack Kerouac]

8 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

He's also in the meeting where Michael proposes changing the eternal damnation thing into something more entertaining for the architects and questions some things there also.  So I don't that he made Michael changed anything about the yogurt shops  at Shawn's insistence, as much as they all may have had another meeting to discuss how this would be done and it was always a joint effort.   I think Shawn's another architect and that the only reason Michael seemed subordinate to him was that Michael was still a new architect.  

It's hard to say though because they left several things very open-ended probably to help provide room for another season. 

But Shawn isn't a judge (or at least, most of what he said as the judge was not true), he was in the pitch meeting when Michael outlines his "make it more interesting for us" plan and I thought that Michael's neighborhood was more a collaborative effort for all of them.  That they are all using those four people as playthings for their amusement.

Or not as that's another thing open to interpretation.   

But when Michael tells Eleanor he is going to wipe their memories and tweak a few things, he says "I just have to run it by the big boss. Cross your fingers." He then does that by running it past Shawn. Plus, Shawn is sitting in the power position in the pitch meeting. It's pretty clear Shawn is Michael's boss.