S01.E11: The Right Thing to Do

[ShadowFacts]

4 minutes ago, OtterMommy said:

I think mostly it was Rebecca's relationship with her own mother regarding food that sort of put that all together under the "Rebecca screwed up Kate with food issues" umbrella.  Personally, I don't quite buy it, at least not with what we've seen so far.

Adult Kate and Rebecca had that conversation in the car Christmas Eve after the doctor's appointment, where Rebecca asked if she messed her up about weight, and Kate said she didn't know.  There's more ground to cover about this, but to me this episode looked like Rebecca has been re-enacting some scenes from her own earlier life, and Jack was continuing something of a pattern of being cowed by his father, but not being like his father. 

[OtterMommy]

Just now, ShadowFacts said:

Adult Kate and Rebecca had that conversation in the car Christmas Eve after the doctor's appointment, where Rebecca asked if she messed her up about weight, and Kate said she didn't know.  There's more ground to cover about this, but to me this episode looked like Rebecca has been re-enacting some scenes from her own earlier life, and Jack was continuing something of a pattern of being cowed by his father, but not being like his father. 

I do think that Rebecca may have passed some of her baggage onto Kate, but I don't think we can blame Kate's weight--or the extent of it--on Rebecca (based on what we know so far).  Yeah, Rebecca may have made some questionable choices, but I haven't seen her do anything really over the line (yet).  I got a lot of that baggage from my mother, and what we've seen between Rebecca and Kate doesn't even come close.

I do think that there has to be something else going on there--whether it is more of the same, but enough to cause a big problem or something else completely has yet to be shown.

[camom]

Quote

and he DID give his Dad his beloved car... so it's not a loan

He did?  I thought he sold the car to someone else.  He put his wedding ring back on before the car transaction took place.

[ClareWalks]

2 minutes ago, camom said:

He did?  I thought he sold the car to someone else.  He put his wedding ring back on before the car transaction took place.

Yep, he sold the car to his coworker (when he had pulled up to the construction site that guy was like "are you thinking about selling?").

[Lady Calypso]

18 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

I keep seeing posts about how Rebecca screwed up Kate with food issues, but I can't remember what we have seen that is so terrible:

1.  She was hyper about food in one episode, but at the end told Kate they would just focus on being healthy.

2.  She mentioned a sweater being the only one that was clean and fit.

3.  She was concerned that Kate didn't have a shirt at the pool, but I only remember her talking to Jack about it.

4.  She told Kate that Kate was beautiful and then asked her to grab a shirt, and Kate noticed the size difference.

Am I missing something?  Even when Kate described their relationship, she said that she was jealous of her mom, not that her mom was abusive about her weight.  What have I forgotten?

I think even Kate admitted that Rebecca might have played a part in her weight issues. Rebecca seemed to be very concerned about Kate's weight for a multitude of reasons. I think her main concern was about other people and what they might say or think. I think Rebecca was trying to protect Kate from the bullying, but it did end up affecting Kate as an adult. We're only on episode 11, mind you, and the show chooses to focus on various aspects in the flashbacks, so we won't always see every little thing that happens, but I think the dialogue in episode 10 did indicate that Rebecca did play a factor in Kate's issues. 

Also, other things that happened in the flashbacks include Rebecca getting Kate to eat fruit while the boys could have cereal (in one of the early episodes, possibly in the second episode), and she got mad at Jack when he let Kate have cereal. She also did kind of talk to Kate about wearing a shirt at the pool, but I think Kate was already running off. 

It's not that Rebecca doesn't love Kate, because she does. She just was trying to protect Kate at a young age but not in the way that she probably planned. Her protecting Kate from others talking about her in a negative way seemed to backfire. But Rebecca was definitely not abusive about Kate's weight. Her concern just made it seem like she didn't want a fat daughter (which I don't think is true at all) and other issues began stemming from that. And now, we can see that Rebecca's mother treated her worse than how Rebecca treated Kate. Rebecca's concern came from loving her daughter and wanting to protect her and the family. Rebecca's mother just seemed concerned about herself and her own self-image. That's why I appreciated their scene. I had a feeling Rebecca's mother would be worse when it came to her daughter's weight, and I'm glad we got to see it. 

[OtterMommy]

7 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

I think even Kate admitted that Rebecca might have played a part in her weight issues. Rebecca seemed to be very concerned about Kate's weight for a multitude of reasons. I think her main concern was about other people and what they might say or think. I think Rebecca was trying to protect Kate from the bullying, but it did end up affecting Kate as an adult. We're only on episode 11, mind you, and the show chooses to focus on various aspects in the flashbacks, so we won't always see every little thing that happens, but I think the dialogue in episode 10 did indicate that Rebecca did play a factor in Kate's issues. 

Also, other things that happened in the flashbacks include Rebecca getting Kate to eat fruit while the boys could have cereal (in one of the early episodes, possibly in the second episode), and she got mad at Jack when he let Kate have cereal. She also did kind of talk to Kate about wearing a shirt at the pool, but I think Kate was already running off. 

It's not that Rebecca doesn't love Kate, because she does. She just was trying to protect Kate at a young age but not in the way that she probably planned. Her protecting Kate from others talking about her in a negative way seemed to backfire. But Rebecca was definitely not abusive about Kate's weight. Her concern just made it seem like she didn't want a fat daughter (which I don't think is true at all) and other issues began stemming from that. And now, we can see that Rebecca's mother treated her worse than how Rebecca treated Kate. Rebecca's concern came from loving her daughter and wanting to protect her and the family. Rebecca's mother just seemed concerned about herself and her own self-image. That's why I appreciated their scene. I had a feeling Rebecca's mother would be worse when it came to her daughter's weight, and I'm glad we got to see it. 

I do think that Rebecca played a part in Kate developing a weight problem--I just think that there was far more than that OR we haven't seen the worst of it.  There is a bit of the chicken and egg here--does Kate has issues that caused her weight problem or do her weight problems cause her issues?  I don't think it is the latter and I just feel that there is something, something big, that we have yet to be shown.  We did see Kate as a teenager and, while overweight, she was significantly smaller than she is an adult, which makes me think that *something* happened to her.

[maraleia]

44 minutes ago, nkotb said:

 

I should probably say that I'm not a member of the LGBT community, although, totally supportive, but I noticed that Beth said "preference" rather than "orientation", which is the norm. As soon as I heard it, my immediate thought was that William had made it a point early in the show to say that he'd had relationships with both men & women, so I took that to mean that since he was now in a relationship with a man instead of a woman, that was his current preference, & I'd assume that if he was dating a woman at this time, she'd use the same verbiage. Again, I'm not trying to be disrespectful at all, that was just my thought.

So nice to have a short scene of Major Dad again. Can't wait until next week

Thanks for noticing the preference terminology and wondering about it. The thing is there is a way to express what Beth was trying to say to Randall without using terminology that harms the LGB community. Bisexual people fall for the person not the gender which means it's not a preference either. It's how their orientation is wired. That's the problem I have with the way it was presented on the show and how I know they don't have any queer writers on staff.

[Percysowner]

3 hours ago, doodlebug said:

For some reason, this show seems to like male characters who make important, even life-changing, decisions without telling their partners.  We had Randall find his bio-Daddy and then bring him home to stay without a word to his wife.  Jack spends a significant sum to rent an apartment (were they able to get any of that back?) and follows it up with getting money from his estranged father and buying a house without telling Rebecca.  Toby barges in on Kate's football rituals, flies cross country on a holiday and then doesn't tell her he's having heart surgery until he's about to be wheeled into the OR.

None of this stuff is romantic or funny and it seems more paternalistic and disrespectful to the respective females involved.  Perhaps it was written that way to expedite the storytelling, but there were better ways to do it. 

Well, kids often internalize and relive the patterns they see in their parents. Jack is paternalistic and makes decisions without input from Rebecca. Even in the pilot, he was the one who wanted to adopt Randal. Rebecca had 1) Just gone through labor, which saps your strength and doesn't leave you wanting to make decisions. 2) Just gone into distress during labor, needing medical intervention, which again does not leave you in a good state to make decisions. 3) Just had a child she was carrying DIE during labor, another overwhelming experience and a not a good time to make life changing decisions. Jack spends the episode saying we came in with three children and we are leaving with three children and springs the abandoned Randal on her and tells her they should adopt him. So I had a few qualms right there. Changing his job, even though it was to make more money for the family, without discussing it with Rebecca is another instance of Jack making unilateral decisions.

Jack is a great father and, thus far, a good husband, although there have been some cracks in the good husband part with his drinking and showing interest in the female co-worker. I'm not saying he's a bad guy. But all the kids saw a model of a "take charge" father who made decisions, often without Rebecca's input. So Randal internalizes that view of being a husband and re-enacts it with his family. Kate finds a guy who is a "take charge" guy who makes decisions and pushes them on her and she doesn't have a model of how to push back, other than pulling away entirely. I think the family dynamics make a lot of sense.

I also think we have not seen the last of Olivia. She finds out that (as I think she sees her) "mousey little Sloane" has taken HER role and HER man. So she comes back to get back her possessions. The Director has already indicated he'd like her back. She confronts Kevin in front of Sloane, making sure Sloane knows she has a (much better looking, sexier, more interesting) rival. Kevin makes it all worse by making it clear that he still kind of wants Olivia. Why should she go away? This is just the first foray into a larger battle. She's rocked Sloane. If Sloane gets thrown off, then Olivia can step up and take back HER part. Then she can move on to taking back HER Kevin. The fact that she will probably dump him once she has him again is only secondary. She's marking her territory. Plus she is a "complicated" "edgy" character. I'm sure she's here for the long haul.

ETA: About the Diet controversy. When I go to a restaurant I say I want a diet "whatever you have", so asking for a diet doesn't have to mean a diet Coke. There was Tab. There was Fresca. There was diet Pepsi and Diet Rite. Rebecca's mother was just letting them know to bring them something diet. She didn't care if her daughter wanted it or not.

Edited January 11, 2017 by Percysowner

[Clanstarling]

2 hours ago, meep.meep said:

It's a plate of romaine lettuce and croutons.  Why not keep the fish and get rid of the bread?

No, no, no, no!  Men weren't expected to do that.  Every couple was different back then, like they are today.  Most people made decisions like this together, even way back in the dark days of 1978.  My mother picked out a house and bought it while my father was in Vietnam, in 1969.  He thought she did a good job.  You are thinking of a time much before the time when this takes place.  And generalizing wildly.

And if my husband did it to me twice, like Jack does, I would go postal on him.

My ex and I were in the buying market during that time period, and what amused me then was the realtor assumed I was the soft sell (the little woman wants a house) but I was actually the one he needed to convince.

It always startles me to hear those days spoken of as the dark ages. Then, as now, mileage varied considerably as to what was the "norm."

And in the shallow end of the pool - Randall without a shirt - oh my.

[Enigma X]

3 hours ago, Cardie said:

The financial picture this episode provides convinces me more and more that the decision to adopt Randall came purely from the heart and not the head. They had no business taking in another baby and I'm surprised they were allowed to adopt with newborn twins, especially if child welfare checked into their financials.

I don't know. My sister was struggling just as much as Jack and Rebecca were and she was allowed to adopt 4 under 7 (youngest 2 months). One had developmental problems. And she had two teenagers of her own. She was also a widow. 

[doodlebug]

19 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

It always startles me to hear those days spoken of as the dark ages. Then, as now, mileage varied considerably as to what was the "norm."

And in the shallow end of the pool - Randall without a shirt - oh my.

Yeah, I was a young adult back then, too.  We'd already had 'women's lib' and it would have been highly unusual back in that time for a husband to make unilateral decisions on housing or employment or even on borrowing from a parent without the wife being aware.  Perhaps because Jack was raised by an abusive father who never asked his wife's opinion and didn't value it anyway; so he didn't think about consulting Rebecca first; but it was hardly the norm.

Heck, my own parents had a fairly typical marriage in that my mother stayed home with the kids for the most part while my dad held a job; but, even so, they both went house hunting, even way back in the dark ages in 1959 when they bought their first one.  My mom didn't drive until I was a teen, so my dad did have more input into purchasing cars and the like; but he never would've bought a car without telling my mother first. 

Marriage was generally a more cooperative venture back then in contrast to what we've seen thus far.

 

don't know. My sister was struggling just as much as Jack and Rebecca were and she was allowed to adopt 4 under 7 (youngest 2 months). One had developmental problems. And she had two teenagers of her own. She was also a widow

Sure, but  would your sister decide on the spur of the moment with no preparation or evaluation, to adopt a kid without even consulting her partner (had she had one?).  While it was more difficult to place non-white infants back in the day, it was hardly impossible and, even then, there were rules and regulations.  Like home studies, social services evaluations, etc.  The idea that a guy whose wife was unavailable because she had just given birth to triplets, one of whom did not survive; could just pop into the nursery and take home an 'extra' wasn't likely even back in those unenlightened times.  Quite frankly, even then, TPTB who dealt with adoptions would've been concerned about the emotional and psychological ramifications of letting someone adopt in those circumstances.  We've had no indication that Jack and Rebecca were interested in adoption prior to that moment.  Jack's desire to 'replace' his lost child with another ASAP would've been a red flag, even then.

Edited January 11, 2017 by doodlebug

[ChicksDigScars]

15 hours ago, J-Man said:

Anachronism of the week: Rebecca's mom changed Rebecca's drink order from Coke to Diet Coke in a scene that took place in 1979 or 1980. Diet Coke wasn't introduced until 1982.

That's right. She should have changed her order to a Tab. Tab was Coca Cola's diet cola at the time. They made Tab, and they made Fresca as their only diet selections. With cancer warning labels because they were made with saccharine.  I know.  I had a three Tab a day habit in high school. And my weight obsessed mother not only bought me that shit, but bought me diet pills and secretly took in my pants in so that I'd think I gained weight and would diet harder. Oh, did I mention that I played on sports and was 120 pounds in high school? So yeah, Rebecca's mom, AND Rebecca's handling of Kate's weight brought back a LOT of memories here. I almost not want to watch because of it.

Both the "money pit," and the co-workers comment to Jack about selling his car, were huge anvils. I knew that he'd sell the car to buy the house, right away. 

[Sake614]

1 hour ago, ShadowFacts said:

Ragging on Kate for eating Christmas cookies when she had appendicitis

Kate was complaining of a stomach ache and Rebecca mentioned the empty (or almost empty) bag of cookies. Didn't seem like much of a stretch to me. Was Rebecca supposed to magically know that the kid was really sick?

[SunnyBeBe]

I just thought the writers were having Jack do all those things behind Rebecca's back to show how resourceful and dedicated he is.  Plus, he's the dead dad, who's the hero, right? It doesn't really bother me, because he seems to really make some good decisions, though, my only real issue was adopting a third child in the beginning.  Your child dies and you come home with another baby, along with your two, even though you are really struggling financially? To me, it's pretty preposterous, but, I tend to believe whatever Gerald McRaney tells me.  lol 

My dad was rather like that. Growing up in the 70's, he would come home with a new family car, new bedroom suite, new appliances.  My mom HATED IT.  It wasn't until they were much older that she put her foot down.  My dad seemed to like the surprise and delight of it. 

[mojoween]

Rebecca said her mother "does mean well" and I like that it could have another meaning, in that her mother is mean as hell and does a bang-up job of it.

"Tell me an anecdote."  "I have this gluten-free co-worker..."  "Nope next!"  Loved that so much.

Randall is hot and shirtless Randall is hotter but hot damn he would be exhausting to be around.

[ShadowFacts]

15 minutes ago, Sake614 said:

Kate was complaining of a stomach ache and Rebecca mentioned the empty (or almost empty) bag of cookies. Didn't seem like much of a stretch to me. Was Rebecca supposed to magically know that the kid was really sick?

No, but that isn't what I was responding to.  Just replied to a poster asking if they had missed any instances of Rebecca and Kate and food issues.  Rebecca made a wrong assumption about Kate and cookies, but she couldn't know that. 

[mansonlamps]

4 hours ago, Cardie said:

The financial picture this episode provides convinces me more and more that the decision to adopt Randall came purely from the heart and not the head. They had no business taking in another baby and I'm surprised they were allowed to adopt with newborn twins, especially if child welfare checked into their financials.

I don't think they would have had too hard of a problem adopting an abandoned non white child back in those days.  Particularly since they went in expecting to be taking home 3 babies and, assumedly, prepared for that.

4 hours ago, Packerbrewerbadger said:

But we had Tab in the 60's and 70's which was a diet cola.

Yes, she would have never said Diet Coke, at best maybe Diet Rite.  But most likely Tab.

2 hours ago, Crs97 said:

I keep seeing posts about how Rebecca screwed up Kate with food issues, but I can't remember what we have seen that is so terrible:

1.  She was hyper about food in one episode, but at the end told Kate they would just focus on being healthy.

2.  She mentioned a sweater being the only one that was clean and fit.

3.  She was concerned that Kate didn't have a shirt at the pool, but I only remember her talking to Jack about it.

4.  She told Kate that Kate was beautiful and then asked her to grab a shirt, and Kate noticed the size difference.

Am I missing something?  Even when Kate described their relationship, she said that she was jealous of her mom, not that her mom was abusive about her weight.  What have I forgotten?

I totally agree.  In my opinion, from what we've been shown so far, Rebecca has expressed some mild concern over her daughter's chubbiness, but nothing that could be considered abusive or demeaning.

[PRgal]

On the Tab thing:  Coke owns Tab, so if Coke paid to be in x number of episodes, why not get the branding right (i.e. this would NEVER have happened on, say, Mad Men)?  Unless of course, whomever wrote the show either didn't exist before Diet Coke launched or was too young to remember a time without Diet Coke. 

[OtterMommy]

55 minutes ago, ChicksDigScars said:

That's right. She should have changed her order to a Tab. Tab was Coca Cola's diet cola at the time. They made Tab, and they made Fresca as their only diet selections. With cancer warning labels because they were made with saccharine.  I know.  I had a three Tab a day habit in high school. And my weight obsessed mother not only bought me that shit, but bought me diet pills and secretly took in my pants in so that I'd think I gained weight and would diet harder. Oh, did I mention that I played on sports and was 120 pounds in high school? So yeah, Rebecca's mom, AND Rebecca's handling of Kate's weight brought back a LOT of memories here. I almost not want to watch because of it.

Ugh, that's terrible!  I'm sorry you had to go through that!

[camom]

Quote

They had no business taking in another baby and I'm surprised they were allowed to adopt with newborn twins, especially if child welfare checked into their financials.

Not everyone played by the rules, unfortunately.  I think things are better now, but at that time lots of people were adopting babies without going through official channels.  (I have a cousin who adopted two babies under "unusual" circumstances.)

[OtterMommy]

8 minutes ago, camom said:

Not everyone played by the rules, unfortunately.  I think things are better now, but at that time lots of people were adopting babies without going through official channels.  (I have a cousin who adopted two babies under "unusual" circumstances.)

We also don't know exactly how the adoption happened.  It could have been that they took baby Randall in as a foster (and foster parents are always in short supply) and then adopted him.  I have a feeling that we'll know more next week.

[Calamity Jane]

1 hour ago, ChicksDigScars said:

That's right. She should have changed her order to a Tab. Tab was Coca Cola's diet cola at the time. They made Tab, and they made Fresca as their only diet selections. With cancer warning labels because they were made with saccharine.  I know.  I had a three Tab a day habit in high school. And my weight obsessed mother not only bought me that shit, but bought me diet pills and secretly took in my pants in so that I'd think I gained weight and would diet harder. Oh, did I mention that I played on sports and was 120 pounds in high school? So yeah, Rebecca's mom, AND Rebecca's handling of Kate's weight brought back a LOT of memories here. I almost not want to watch because of it.

Both the "money pit," and the co-workers comment to Jack about selling his car, were huge anvils. I knew that he'd sell the car to buy the house, right away. 

Wow, sounds a lot like my life.  My weight was always a concern to my mom (she was a bean pole but her mom was heavy), and when I look at childhood pictures expecting to see a tubby little girl, I'm surprised that I was quite slender.  Tennis team in high school, still got the message I was too heavy, weighed 125 at 5'6".  I was built curvier than my mom, and she and therefore I always saw that as a problem.  The sad part was that I felt just as overweight at 125 as I did at 185.  

My favorite scene last night was the three in the hospital waiting room.  It was so sweet and so spot-on.  Randall and his dad discussing discontinuing chemo was the one where I cried.  Still loving this show so much.  

[memememe76]

Regarding whether one needs spousal consent when buying property: 

Yes, it could be the case that the home would be in Jack's name only, but even if it's not the case, it's pretty common for one spouse to sign the contract and then add the other spouse to the contract later. Maybe the time to offer is limited, the other spouse is out of town, etc. The good realtors usually insert a clause in the contract which would allow the buyer to add his/her spouse to contract without getting the seller's consent. 

[JenE4]

7 hours ago, paul4295 said:

Jack's dad was played by Peter Onorati.  Without looking up any recent credits, I remember him most from the TV series Civil Wars, with Mariel Hemingway.  (He is also a graduate of Boonton High School in Boonton, NJ, which is where my kids went.)

Small world! My kids go there--as did I.

[SueB]

4 hours ago, Crs97 said:

I keep seeing posts about how Rebecca screwed up Kate with food issues, but I can't remember what we have seen that is so terrible:

1.  She was hyper about food in one episode, but at the end told Kate they would just focus on being healthy.

2.  She mentioned a sweater being the only one that was clean and fit.

3.  She was concerned that Kate didn't have a shirt at the pool, but I only remember her talking to Jack about it.

4.  She told Kate that Kate was beautiful and then asked her to grab a shirt, and Kate noticed the size difference.

Am I missing something?  Even when Kate described their relationship, she said that she was jealous of her mom, not that her mom was abusive about her weight.  What have I forgotten?

 

 

1. As you said, she was directly hyper about food with Kate, enough that Kate's reaction was pretty extreme for an 8-year-old.  This was NOT the first conversation they've ever had. IMO Rebecca made a well-intentioned mistake. 

2. She should have stopped with "the only one that was clean"... "and fit" is the dig.  And she might not have been conscious of the dig but if your daughter has already demonstrated anxiety a about what she eats, emphasizing that her clothes do not fit is piling on.  Now if they didn't fit because she outgrew them (arms too short or even physically too small because she's now 8 not 6) then you say "you outgrew them".  "and fit" is easily seen as a negative. IMO Rebecca made a subconscious dig at Kate -- probably carrying on a pattern of behavior she like how she was raised.  A subtle criticism.  

3. Rebecca called to her after putting on sunscreen: "Kate, baby, are you sure you don't want to put on a shirt."  Which means 1) her mother is telling her to cover up her body and 2) "sure" means they've already had the conversation at least once and Kate didn't want to cover her body.  Now Rebecca was right that the kids were mean to her. So what is the solution?  Well, the bathing suit was a problem.  Maybe they had gotten it when Kate was smaller and Rebecca didn't have any warning to get a new one.  So... one mistake (not proactively getting a better suit when summer started) is not a big deal.  But it's implied that there is a pattern of 'you are not acceptable in your clothes' by having it brought out in two episodes.  It's not so much that Rebecca screwed up in this situation as Rebecca was clearly anxious over Kate's weight.  Maybe this is part of the reason why she was giving Kate cantaloupe in "The Big Three". 

4. I agree this was not Rebecca's fault. This was the episode that showed the jealousy over beauty as a focus.  Prior to getting the shirt, Rebecca had refused ice cream or else Jack "won't be able to lift" her.  And a frown came on Kate's face as she saw her mother refusing a treat to stay thin.  So in 8-year-old Kate's mind "thin = Dad able to twirl her around." There's absolutely NOTHING wrong with what Kate did, but this was (I believe) the motivation for Rebecca to pay attention to the size difference and equate size with affection.  And all girls want to marry their Dad and little boys fall in love with their Mother.  They grow out of it.  But in this case, what Kate internalized (as we saw) was that love/affection was tied to size.  Hence the jealousy.

5. Presuming it was Kate who ate the Christmas cookies -- implies that even AFTER the "focus on healthy", she's still shaming her for eating.  Now it was 1980-something.  Body shaming wasn't recognized as being as damaging as it is today.  But it shows Rebecca's instinct to presume Kate is overeating.  The boys could have just as easily been the ones to eat the cookies.  Kate was too distracted to respond and the boys are not likely to cop to doing something Mom is mad about.  IF Kate remembers the accusation, then I'd say this was a mistake on Rebecca's part. 

Here's the deal: Rebecca acted pretty much like many mothers would in the 80's when they see their daughter getting overweight. And seeing Rebecca with her mother makes it clear that Rebecca got a lot of this from HER mother.  The cranberry dish incident taught us that Rebecca turned into a perfectionist ('mention how good of a mother I am') when dealing with topics her mother cared about.  And her mother clearly cared about weight. We've seen enough** little digs, comments, and incidents that form a pattern - Kate's weight was something Rebecca was worried about.  And she passed this anxiety directly and indirectly to her daughter.  Now is this WHY Kate is so overweight?  That's too simple of an answer, but I think it unambiguously contributed.   

**The show chooses what to emphasize in the flashbacks.  And they are all directly tied to the adult Big Three personality features (for good or bad).  I think they are implying a life-long issue between Rebecca and Kate, not 4 or 5 isolated incidents.  

Edited January 12, 2017 by SueB

[HeyThere83]

Wow what on earth was that with Olivia? I seriously didn't get it. Are they just not clear on what they are doing with this...err....story? It just seems so silly and the idea of women fighting over moronic Kevin that they have both just met is just ugh.

I'm not getting at all from Toby that he talks the way he does and acts the way he does because he is uncomfortable, insecure, afraid, etc. It comes off exactly how it sounds and looks to me. If the actor is supposed to be playing it as though there's something else there I don't think he is accomplishing that. Ending on a big OMG cliffhanger like that in December to have him wake up as though it was just another day in the neighborhood was very WTF, lacked the drama that I thought should be there, and was a disappointment.  

[mansonlamps]

17 minutes ago, HeyThere83 said:

Wow what on earth was that with Olivia? I seriously didn't get it. Are they just not clear on what they are doing with this...err....story? It just seems so silly and the idea of women fighting over moronic Kevin that they have both just met is just ugh.

I'm not getting at all from Toby that he talks the way he does and acts the way he does because he is uncomfortable, insecure, afraid, etc. It comes off exactly how it sounds and looks to me. If the actor is supposed to be playing it as though there's something else there I don't think he is accomplishing that. Ending on a big OMG cliffhanger like that in December to have him wake up as though it was just another day in the neighborhood was very WTF, lacked the drama that I thought should be there, and was a disappointment.  

I know.  While I don't find Kevin moronic, the fighting over him as the "prize" is insulting and, I assume, written by a male who assumes that women with careers and lives and great qualities of their own are mesmerized by Kevin who is clearly not invested in either one.

[Lady Calypso]

5 minutes ago, mansonlamps said:

I know.  While I don't find Kevin moronic, the fighting over him as the "prize" is insulting and, I assume, written by a male who assumes that women with careers and lives and great qualities of their own are mesmerized by Kevin who is clearly not invested in either one.

With Olivia, I get this as she is clearly there just to "win" Kevin and the play back (proven further when she is ultimately rejected by both and she declares that she's going to go sleep with random strangers), but I think Sloane isn't exactly fighting over Kevin as she is curious about what they are. They have been sleeping together since just after Thanksgiving, so well over a month, closer to a month and a half. She clearly takes her career very seriously, but she also seems to have developed genuine feelings for Kevin. The fact that they haven't talked about any next steps would naturally make Sloane curious, especially once Olivia returned. We've only just started to get to know Sloane, but she's at least had a scene where Kevin was mostly secondary (she got to be the storyteller for a couple of minutes in the Christmas episode while Kevin got to watch, mesmerized), while Olivia's just kind of...been there, mostly as a foil for Kevin. 

I'm giving them more time to explore Kevin/Sloane as a romantic pairing because they only started sleeping together two episodes ago. I don't mind the slow burn, as long as it leads somewhere. Plus, Kevin messed up so we'll get to see him figure out how to deal with the situation with Sloane. 

34 minutes ago, HeyThere83 said:

I'm not getting at all from Toby that he talks the way he does and acts the way he does because he is uncomfortable, insecure, afraid, etc. It comes off exactly how it sounds and looks to me. If the actor is supposed to be playing it as though there's something else there I don't think he is accomplishing that. Ending on a big OMG cliffhanger like that in December to have him wake up as though it was just another day in the neighborhood was very WTF, lacked the drama that I thought should be there, and was a disappointment.  

I think they're not doing as good of a job as they could, but I do believe that their attempt is to show that he's fearful and insecure BY making jokes and pretending everything is ok. People cope in different ways, and Toby deals through sexual jokes, actual sex, and just being the comic relief guy. I agree that they're not quite accomplishing this, but I can see what they're attempting to do. So far, none of the writers have really been able to get this down, and I think Chris Sullivan is a strong enough actor to accomplish this, but strong writing would benefit from the point coming across. 

I do agree that maybe jumping right into inappropriate jokes and a nonchalant attitude was the wrong way to go. Now they'll most likely have a moment later on when he breaks down, but I don't know if it'll be truly genuine when it happens. And unfortunately, their attempt when he was being wheeled into surgery was not good enough for me. So yeah, my problems with Toby lie within his characterization. I see what they're trying to do, but they've been missing the mark entirely.

[buckboard]

7 hours ago, ZaldamoWilder said:

I'm too lazy to look but what I mean is this isn't even a possibility in New Jersey.  If you're married you can't "surprise" your spouse with property unless you buy it in cash (and I know Jack didn't have cash), they're required to sign all loan or refi documents in front of a witness.   

I swear this show makes me think about shit I don't even care about lol.   Any Pennsylvanians on the board? 

I'm not a lawyer, but Jack purchased the house in Pennsylvania, not New Jersey, 36 years ago, so perhaps the law was different at that time and place.  Maybe Jack did have enough cash for a down payment for the house, which he got at a good price from his boss.

[annewithaneee]

My favorite moment was right at the beginning, when Toby called the nurse "Nurse Ratched", to a woman who is not only too young to plausibly get that reference but also as a black woman probably doesn't appreciate a white man apparently calling her "ratchet". I snorted so hard at that well-deserved side-eye. Excellent background acting. Almost made up for Toby's terrible ass being alive. 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, buckboard said:

I'm not a lawyer, but Jack purchased the house in Pennsylvania, not New Jersey, 36 years ago, so perhaps the law was different at that time and place.  Maybe Jack did have enough cash for a down payment for the house, which he got at a good price from his boss.

I assumed Jack's boss and Jack made a verbal agreement for Jack to buy the house (with a mortgage, of course) and that Jack and possibly Rebecca would need to go arrange that mortgage at some point after Jack showed her the house.   

Does Pittsburgh really have 6th floor walkups?  Is land that rare in western PA?  I thought that sort of apt. was pretty much limited to NYC and maybe a couple other major cities.  

I pretty much felt like others here about the episode.  Though I watch this and feel like I must have no heart at all because all the grand romantic gestures just make me roll my eyes.   Grand, public proclamations of love!  Buying/renting real estate for your love!  

My tiny nitpick- a gallon of ice cream?  Half gallons were much more common, and that ice cream shop probably would've sold quarts at the largest.  Even with today's portion inflation, a gallon is a shitload of ice cream.  It's that giant plastic bucket of cheap vanilla with a handle you see at Walmart.  (And honestly, pregnant women don't all crave ice cream and walk around rubbing their bellies even in the first trimester.)

[paul4295]

2 hours ago, JenE4 said:

Small world! My kids go there--as did I.

Well, my daughter just graduated last June, so perhaps our paths have crossed.

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

I think they're not doing as good of a job as they could, but I do believe that their attempt is to show that he's fearful and insecure BY making jokes and pretending everything is ok. People cope in different ways, and Toby deals through sexual jokes, actual sex, and just being the comic relief guy.

This has always been my take on Toby. I kind of like him. As for the boundaries issue, Kate isn't that great about them herself, so they seem to be a match to me.

As for the ice cream - I don't find the gallon unbelievable. There was a time when the large sizes were cheaper per ounce, and if you know it's your jam, as it were, why not buy big. Though not all women crave ice cream, being pregnant was known to be the time when you could pig out and blame it on the baby(ies). One of mine made me crave hot peppers, and with the other, oddly, the only craving was that I would only listen to music by one performer - for the duration of the pregnancy. I, unfortunately, had gestational diabetes with both and sweets were off the table - even if I had craved them.

[biakbiak]

47 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

My tiny nitpick- a gallon of ice cream?  Half gallons were much more common, and that ice cream shop probably would've sold quarts at the largest.  Even with today's portion inflation, a gallon is a shitload of ice cream

Growing up most of the ice cream we had in the freezer were gallons. Small containers only appeared if they were Ben and Jerry's or Häagen-Dazs.

Edited January 12, 2017 by biakbiak

[Dejana]

Rebecca's mother ordering a diet soda for her brought back memories of my mom and aunts showing us their old pregnancy handbooks written in the 1960s and 1970s, advising expectant mothers to avoid carbohydrates at all costs and not to gain more than 18 pounds total (2 per month!).

Obviously, the mother knew Rebecca was having triplets and she's still nagging her about weight—what a piece of work! I couldn't entirely tell if Rebecca only told her so soon with the hopes to get money or she genuinely wanted them to bond. Since they were still having Thanksgiving with Mommy Dearest nearly a decade later, maybe Rebecca was still at the stage of hoping for the best with their relationship rather than merely having to endure her presence.

Edited January 12, 2017 by Dejana

[Ms Blue Jay]

19 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

My ex and I were in the buying market during that time period, and what amused me then was the realtor assumed I was the soft sell (the little woman wants a house) but I was actually the one he needed to convince.

I'm sorry to join in but I LOVE stories like this.  My mother is from a different country and she taught my father how to be fluent in her language (he's Canadian).

When my parents were negotiating the price of a car with a dealership, my mom kept aggressively driving the price down (she's the hard sell, the TOUGHEST negotiator) and my father was so embarrassed.  He'd take any price; he's way too nice.  So the two of them kept arguing in my mom's language again and again and my father angrily kept telling her "No, no, no."

The dealership took this to mean that he was angry at the PRICE and kept lowering the price to please HIM.

Funnily enough, there was also an episode on Fresh off the Boat kind of like this.  

Edited January 12, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[HeyThere83]

16 minutes ago, biakbiak said:

Growing up most of the ice cream we had in the freezer were gallons. Small containers only appeared if they were Ben and Jerry's or Häagen-Dazs.

Yeah, and nowadays so many of these small containers are like 10 bux!

[breezy424]

Jeez.  How many commercials?  It's like seven minutes of show and then three minutes of commercials.  I'm going back to the DVR on the next episode so I can fast forward.

And another jeez.  Sorry, but 1980 wasn't the dark ages.  Jack renting the apartment or buying the house on his own was not the norm.  At least, from my experience.  And at least, they could have had Jack showing the house to Rebecca and then having Jack convince her to buy it.  Crap.  Did anyone on the writing team even live during that time or was of the same age?

And then we have Rebecca's mom.  OK.  I get it.  Rebecca's mom is domineering about control and weight.  But the salad thing?  And then the diet soda?  We're going into contrived here.  Oh, and then the cigarette.  Over the top.  Trying way too hard. 

The best part of the episode was the triplets in the waiting room.  So great.  This is what I want to see.  This is the history I want to learn about. Their relationship.

God, Toby, go away.  You are so inappropriate.  I wanted you to die when you keeled over at Randall's house.  I wanted you to not survive the surgery.  I still have hopes.

And what is this with the men on this show making decisions without consulting the women/significant others on the show?

Loved Randall's reaction to his father being bi?  It was so real.  And then his awkwardness in so many situations.  And then the balance when he accepted his father's decision to stop chemo.

[Cardie]

2 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

Though I watch this and feel like I must have no heart at all because all the grand romantic gestures just make me roll my eyes.   Grand, public proclamations of love!  Buying/renting real estate for your love!  

I am someone who can always compartmentalize emotions, a regular Mr. Spock. That's why I did an eyeroll at the financially stretched parents eagerly taking in Randall. Had I been in this situation, in the midst of my grief a little voice would have found a silver lining in only having to support two kids, not three. I know, I'm not like most people.

[MsJamieDornan]

1 hour ago, breezy424 said:

Sorry, but 1980 wasn't the dark ages.

Thank you.  At times I think i'm watching a show from the 50's not the 80's ! (the flashbacks)

[methodwriter85]

Interesting comment about the six-floor walk-up. While Pittsburgh does have tall apartment buildings, the vibe I've gotten from the area is that people leaned toward densely packed together single-family homes. Kind of like the way Baltimore is, and the way Philly was until the city went skyscraper mad. And it's never been said they actually live in downtown Pittsburgh. I do kind of wish the show would do more with the Pittsburgh setting, like them taking the kids to Keenywood or something.

Edited January 12, 2017 by methodwriter85

[DebbieM4]

On 1/11/2017 at 4:12 AM, Judois said:

I think I fell out of love with this show over the long break. The writers wimping out on killing off Toby,who I don't like,did not help me like this episode more. 

I'm not quite out of love with this show, but I wasn't happy with the handling of the Toby story either.  I don't like him and I think both Kate and this show could be more interesting without him, but it's not even so much that they didn't kill him off.  I just think that the way they handled it was completely without drama and extremely anti-climactic.  I would have been more okay with him surviving if only there had been a little more something to the way it played out.  It seemed like lazy writing to me - The whole thing was dismissed far too quickly.  A big build-up for nothing is one of the things I find most irritating about some shows.   And the proposal scene was too random & forced, and didn't ring true.

 I thought most of this episode was rather dull, but I'm hanging in because I know how good it can be.  Fingers crossed!

On 1/11/2017 at 10:35 AM, 3 is enough said:

I think Jack not telling his father about Rebecca and the babies was partly for their protection.  If his abusive dad does not know they exist, he can't hurt them in any way.

Probably not a popular opinion, but I don't hate Toby as much as most people do.  I don't really like him, but I get the impression that the joking and inappropriate remarks are just his way of dealing with uncomfortable situations.  We got a glimpse of how much his ex hurt him, and I think his behaviour is a result of that.  He doesn't want to get hurt again and becomes the joker to mask his feelings.  YMMV, of course.

Can anyone tell me who played Jack's dad?  He looked very familiar to me but I can't think of his name or where I saw him before.  Thanks.

I agree that Toby jokes and all of that as a way of dealing with uncomfortable situations,and that his self-esteem took a hit.  Probably many hits.  The problem for me, though, is that he does it ALL the time.  Which I think means that he's uncomfortable always and constantly tries too hard.  Just watching him is exhausting.  And IMO he's rarely funny.  It's all just too desperate for me.  He's extremely needy and far too high-maintenance.  That's why I'm firmly on the "Please Get Toby Off My TV" train.   

I do agree that Jack misrepresented his life to his father as a way of protecting Rebecca and the babies.   He knew that his father would react well to feeling superior, and he also knew there was no reason to disclose anything real.

On 1/11/2017 at 10:35 AM, Aloeonatable said:

I raised my family in the 70's through the 90's, and though I didn't have triplets, there is no way that I wasn't involved in making decisions about where we lived and when we bought our first house. I do think that Jack purchased the house before telling Rebecca because he could afford this and had to act fast knowing that the triplets would be born in 6 months. There was no time to "shop" around for a house. When Mr. Aloe and I were first married and I found out I was pregnant for the first time, we were both students and living in a one bedroom apartment. We made the choice to move into his father's 3 bedroom house until we could afford to buy our own. It worked out well until our daughter was a year old and we could then afford our own home. We did contribute financially to his father's home while we lived there and it worked out well as his dad was divorced and I was the only woman in the home.  I could have never lived with my parents nor his parents (mother and stepfather), and we both got along very well with them.

Me too.  I got married in the 70's, and we were equal partners right from the start, as were all the other couples we knew.  None of the men would have bought a car, rented an apartment, or bought a house without the wife's opinion being considered.   I would not have thought it was okay for a man to do any of those things, and I wouldn't have thought it was romantic.  I would have found it to be disrespectful, and I would not have been happy!

Even my parents always made decisions like that together.

On 1/11/2017 at 1:04 PM, meep.meep said:

It's a plate of romaine lettuce and croutons.  Why not keep the fish and get rid of the bread?

No, no, no, no!  Men weren't expected to do that.  Every couple was different back then, like they are today.  Most people made decisions like this together, even way back in the dark days of 1978.  My mother picked out a house and bought it while my father was in Vietnam, in 1969.  He thought she did a good job.  You are thinking of a time much before the time when this takes place.  And generalizing wildly.

And if my husband did it to me twice, like Jack does, I would go postal on him.

Exactly!  The 70's were not the Dark Ages.  Far from it.  

[mojoween]

I have to admit that Toby's joke that arrhythmia is how you describe someone who can't dance made me laugh.

I saw a quick tweet that wondered if anything "happens" on TIU and it occurred to me that I'm ok with nothing really happening, in that there isn't some big conflict/resolution every time.  This is unlike anything I myself usually watch and I'm liking it.

[Arcadiasw]

20 hours ago, TobinAlbers said:

I was worried that when we saw young Jack and his mother and she begs him to not be like his dad that we were really going to see the beginnings of the cracks of an abusive Jack coming out. So far we know that later as the pressure gets to him, Jack begins drinking too much. Hopefully that's the extent of his cracks but seeing his father, it's amazing that Jack doesn't seem to exhibit more anger about life and instead chooses to be happy, create a family for himself, and not be bitter about making sacrifices or the lemons life throws at him but making the hard choices and taking those lemons and making lemonade. 

I think since Jack knows what it's like to have an angry and abusive parent he knows to not exhibit that behavior on his kids because he doesn't want them to feel what he felt. It's not uncommon to be the opposite of your parent if the experience is bad especially if don't want to risk repeating what they did.  

So, I’m guessing somewhere down the line Jack’s father finds out about Jack’s wife and kids? In TV land, secrets like that find some way of coming out.

Geez, Kevin! Does he ever think before he speaks? I also have to wonder since Kevin needs to have everyone like him did he make that dumbass comment to please Olivia even though he didn’t really mean it? Either way, it’s stupid and hopefully Sloane has enough confidence in herself, she won’t settle for that. Keep working with Kevin professionally for the success of the play but after that, drop him.

I sincerely hope this is the last of Olivia but I wouldn’t be surprise if she comes back one more time.

I agree with everyone that it is way too soon to be talking marriage for Kate and Toby. Never a good idea to use a health scare to get married. It’s even worse when you just got back together.

Either William is dead at the end of the season or February sweeps.

So, Kevin and Randall can be there for Kate at the hospital but not Rebecca?? I understand their relationship is strained but I still think Rebecca should try to be there for Kate since she cares about Toby.

If Rebecca’s mother was critical of what she ate, I can imagine before Rebecca cut her off, what she said about Kate as a child.

[Court]

My parents got married in 1980. My mom bought a house without any input from my dad. They were moving and he couldn't get there so she did it. Different since he knew she was doing it.

My Grandmommy lived in a suburb of Pittsburgh. It was a 4 story townhome. It was tall and narrow. But didn't share walls but the homes were super close together. Does that even make sense? 

[ZaldamoWilder]

10 hours ago, buckboard said:

I'm not a lawyer, but Jack purchased the house in Pennsylvania, not New Jersey, 36 years ago, so perhaps the law was different at that time and place.  Maybe Jack did have enough cash for a down payment for the house, which he got at a good price from his boss.

Yeah, that's why I asked if there were any Pennsylvanians on the board  ;-)    I was using NJ as an example because it's the state whose property law I'm familiar with.   Cash down payment is perfectly plausible but that still means financing the balance.  Loan papers.    I know requirements may vary by state, my overall point was (originally referencing anachronisms) the mind leaps viewers have to make in order not to study the drapes too closely.  

Because:  

8 hours ago, breezy424 said:

And another jeez.  Sorry, but 1980 wasn't the dark ages.  Jack renting the apartment or buying the house on his own was not the norm.  At least, from my experience.  And at least, they could have had Jack showing the house to Rebecca and then having Jack convince her to buy it.  Crap.  Did anyone on the writing team even live during that time or was of the same age?

 

We're not talking about a time and country in and during which women had no agency.   The essential question was in 1980 could one legally purchase property without their spouse's knowledge, not consent, knowledge.  The answer to which seems to be yes.  That's what I get for not being bothered with the Google.

Similar digression is the ice cream discussion.  Original point was whether Kate asked Jack to get a gallon as a trigger response to a possible eating disorder, because she was going to consume the whole thing, either as part of that disorder or as a pregnancy craving or both.  Or, did she simply choose a random size that would get him out of the house quickly before her tears started.      

Ya'll?  I think we're a lot like Randall and his fascinating gluten tale.  Lol.

Wholehearted nod to the poster upthread who said even if Jack asking his father for cash was on the low end of the ethics totem, they were okay with it because he's (still) a shitty dad who can only be appealed to by relishing in his son's defeat.  So as far as Jack goes, earned it.   Agreed.

Kevin deserves for the girl he doesn't want, to leave him. 

[Guest]

On 1/11/2017 at 10:18 PM, biakbiak said:

Growing up most of the ice cream we had in the freezer were gallons. Small containers only appeared if they were Ben and Jerry's or Häagen-Dazs.

Really, gallons?  I've never had a gallon of ice cream in the house, unless I was having say two dozen people for a birthday party.  My recollection of that 1980ish period was most ice cream (besides those premium brands which were small) was sold in half gallon rectangle cardboardish boxes that were a pain to use compared to today's little plastic sub-half-gallon standard tubs.  

Even today I've had companies that sell pricey items like granite countertops and such tell me (a woman) to have my husband there for the quote.  They don't want to waste their time coming out to a house to show a woman their product, assuming she can't/won't make a decision on her own and they'll need to come back.  And assuming she's married.  I tell those companies, "Never mind, I am in charge of this house and all that goes into it", and move to the next one.  

On 1/12/2017 at 8:12 AM, ZaldamoWilder said:

in 1980 could one legally purchase property without their spouse's knowledge, not consent, knowledge.

When one is buying the house from their boss, I think all rules are off.  The mortgage and possibly title deed would have their own rules but I think this was all pre-mortgage and pre-deed.  

On 1/11/2017 at 11:34 PM, breezy424 said:

Jeez.  How many commercials?  It's like seven minutes of show and then three minutes of commercials.  I'm going back to the DVR on the next episode so I can fast forward.

That's a sign you really like the show, I think, because it's pretty standard that a one-hour show is like 42 minutes of show and 18 of commercials.  I don't know of any show that deviates from this by more than a minute or two.  

[ZaldamoWilder]

Just now, Winston9-DT3 said:

When one is buying the house from their boss, I think all rules are off.  The mortgage and possibly title deed would have their own rules but I think this was all pre-mortgage and pre-deed.  

If that boss is the bank.   I'm probably hearing Jack's "I just bought it" too literally.  It's not a conventional sale, he cut his boss or a check or exchanged the down payment for the increase in wages he asked for and the financing came later.   Sorry lol, I'm that weirdo who actually likes to watch the sausage being made.

[ShadowFacts]

I want Kevin to move out of Randall's basement.  He's been there a couple months now.  Move on.  Also, where is Toby going to go when he gets out of the hospital, which should be soon since they don't keep you long for anything anymore.  Kate is at Rebecca and Miguel's, right?  Do they have another spare room?  Maybe this will be the point where Kate and Toby move in together.

4 minutes ago, ZaldamoWilder said:

Wholehearted nod to the poster upthread who said even if Jack asking his father for cash was on the low end of the ethics totem, they were okay with it because he's (still) a shitty dad who can only be appealed to by relishing in his son's defeat.  So as far as Jack goes, earned it.   Agreed.

I have a hard time seeing it that way.  I feel like Jack probably didn't feel like he earned it.  I bet he knocks himself out repaying that money as fast as possible, because it is from that horrible man.  He wouldn't want that kind of payoff for a lifetime of seeing his father mistreat his mother and himself, more likely he'd want nothing to do with him or his money. 

[Clanstarling]

2 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

Also, where is Toby going to go when he gets out of the hospital, which should be soon since they don't keep you long for anything anymore.

True, at least when things don't go wrong. My brother had major bypass surgery on a Monday and had to go home on a Thursday.