S21.E01: Season 21 Premiere

[AuntieDiane6]

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If he didn't try to contact you after 9 months he's not interested.

Or maybe he just wanted to wait past the "deadline" to make sure she wouldn't contact him about a little Nick Jr. 

[dleighg]

3 minutes ago, Kbilly said:

There's more than one Jasmine?

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had the same thought!

[slowpoked]

I thought Nick would come off a jerk on the Liz issue but he surprisingly came off well and articulate. I like how he was forward about "Hey, I asked for your number after we had sex and you said no, so I respected that. And if by chance you changed your mind and realized you want to maybe start kicking off the gears, you could always ask Jade about me. Instead you waited until BIP which is a good nine months after we first met, and even then you still didn't contact me DIRECTLY...something is not adding up here..." And Liz was in complete agreement about how Nick DID in fact ask for her number but she was the one who said no. 

I don't think Nick is a noble guy at all and I will probably end up not liking him too much when his season is over, but I don't blame him for his consternation about the situation, producer-driven or not. I thought he handled it well as he could, given the circumstances. 

[backformore]

Yeah, I thought Nick was saying - you don't want to give me your phone number, so we can maybe date and get to know each other - but you want to date me on TV?  

[ljenkins782]

13 hours ago, chocolatine said:

I just couldn't with Nose Balls. Call me old-fashioned, but they make a person look like a cow.

Liz made herself look really bad by coming on the show, but to her credit, whenever she said "we had sex" in her voice overs, that was obviously spliced in from another conversation. We never see her face when she says it. She may have said it in a one-on-one conversation with Nick in a later episode, but TPTB are making it look like she's telling it to anyone who'll listen.

I'm just still picking my jaw up off the ground at the notion that a woman thought the way to make a lovely first impression on a man was to first tell him she "has balls" and then reach up and PULL SOMETHING OUT OF HER NOSE. Sure, it turned out to be a piercing, but Nick seemed a bit alarmed at first, as was I. 

As for Liz, I also heard the audio splice on "we had sex" so they're making it out to be an awkward blurt when it was probably part of a much more organic conversation. 

That being said: 

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Liz: "I kind of like that having sex with me is a completely forgettable experience."

I don't think I've ever felt this sad for someone in the franchise, and I watched all of Ashley I's arcs.

Seriously. I realize she doesn't have too many options as for how to handle this, but pretending to be happy that guy she slept with not that long ago doesn't even recognize her is just beyond pathetic. 

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Anyone else think that the psychologist/counselor telling Nick that her friend said he was a "piece of ****" was particularly tone deaf (otherwise known as mean)? And it sounded like it was really only one friend.

There were quite a few tone deaf greetings, lots of talk about the multitude of times he's been on the show and his prior reputation. How hard is it to save that awkwardness for a future convo? 

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Liking the start of the season so far. I think Nick is one of the best bachelors they've had by far. I find him super charismatic. Yes he's 100 times hotter than he was on his Bachelorette debut. Poor Andi Dorfman - I still think if she picked him they would have been married and had kids by now.

He's pretty quick on his feet with the one-liners, which will be a nice change after Ben and Prince Farming. Relentlessly hammering the dolphin chick about her shark costume and "I can't wait to meet her friends" made me laugh. 

My early favorites are Rachel and Raven, who I thought was going to be super annoying after her intro package and her limo entrance, but ended up growing on me over the course of the show. She's got a bubbly, Kelly Clarkson-ish vibe to her and I liked that she wanted to befriend Dolphin/Shark rather than ridicule her. 

There were a few others I liked but can't recall their names yet. 

Corinne's villain edit got an early start with all the pans to her making faces and catty remarks on the couch. This is a way dated reference, but she kinda reminds me of Svetlana from The Real World Key West. She even talks like her and the wealthy family, spoiled brat thing fits too. 

Not that this is specific to Corinne only, but I noticed it the most with her...the constant hair touching that drives me insane. I'm guessing it's just them checking that their extensions are still in place, but it gives off the most insecure vibe. 

[NutmegsDad]

23 minutes ago, slowpoked said:

I thought Nick would come off a jerk on the Liz issue but he surprisingly came off well and articulate. I like how he was forward about "Hey, I asked for your number after we had sex and you said no, so I respected that. And if by chance you changed your mind and realized you want to maybe start kicking off the gears, you could always ask Jade about me. Instead you waited until BIP which is a good nine months after we first met, and even then you still didn't contact me DIRECTLY...something is not adding up here..." And Liz was in complete agreement about how Nick DID in fact ask for her number but she was the one who said no. 

Worst remake of As Time Goes By. Ever.

[Madding crowd]

41 minutes ago, Kbilly said:

There's more than one Jasmine?

I had high hopes for her, in her package she said she went to Johns Hopkins and I was impressed but she came off bad in this episode. In the season preview, there's a scene of her in the spa where she looks like Jaslene from Top Model (dating myself?)

I am kind of in love with Rachel and especially Vanessa. She is a knockout, a kind-hearted special ed teacher and fluent in sexy languages. I was confused that Rachel said she went to law school "by" Marquette. Was that a nervous stumble? Or did she go to like UWM or something. Also kind of weird because Waukesha is so close to Milwaukee I wonder if she realized that?

Nick's little sister is adorable and I loved how he called her "sweetheart" or something similar when they were kicking the ball around.

So did that girl really call Neil Lane and ask him to come??

Drinking game: Drink when Liz, Stage 5 Clinger says "nine months ago". And why the constant emphasis on nine months....is there a surprise baby this season?

Former Milwaukeean here and I think Rachel said she lived near Marquette where she went to law school. Nick went to UWM Milwaukee so they could have ran into each other somewhere! I feel really shallow for saying it but I cant stand Nick's lisp. I know he can't help it but I always think some vocal training would make him sound less annoying. They did make him look more attractive here and on BIP but he always seems so fake to me. ON BIP he just looked like he was wasting time until they could announce him as The Bachelor. I never believed he had any interest in Amanda even though Josh was accused of somehow 'taking away Nick's interest".I  kind of feel the same here-he just wants to be on TV. There is an element of that to all the guys, but at least some of them are open to finding someone and getting married.

Also my advice to the women based on comments from male relatives and friends: Guys will stare at girls with tons of hair extensions and five pounds of makeup,but they fall in love with and marry girl next  door types. Not applicable to every guy of course. 

[Rainsong]

If ABC and Fleiss are going to recycle, then we are entitled to cite the GIGO principle:  Garbage In, Garbage Out.  I’ve given most Bachelors the benefit of the doubt even when they painted themselves unnecessarily into corners but Nick has squandered chance after chance through immaturity and cowardice yet they’ve given him the ultimate second (third?  fourth?  fifth?) chance with an entire season and bevy of females to himself.  Failing upward?  This jammy SOB is failing into low-earth orbit.

Sensitive New Age Guy (SNAG) Nick's status as an object of fascination, to say nothing of desire, on the part of the producers and the B’ettes remains a mystery.  He’s worked out, grown his extremely passe tough-guy beard and the camera shots and editing are palpably desperate in their attempts to portray this resolutely Beta male as the Ultimate Hunk Of Masculinity.  Whatever we might have thought of Brad, Jesse or even Ben they were blokes’ blokes and the red blood coursing through their veins was nearly audible.  Or was that the nonstop cymbal crescendos as punched in by the audio engineers?

As Lieutenant Keefer said of Captain Queeg in ‘The Caine Mutiny,’ Nick is crawling with clues.  Nick has that 21st century affected Pajama Boy speech pattern and softness/pitch of voice.  Fair dues to anyone who struggles with a speech impediment but his lisp only reinforces this.  He frequently casts his eyes downward during his one-on-conversations and his on-camera pieces.  When angrily confronted, as we was during Kaitlyn’s season, he locks in and stares holes in the floor.  He is elliptical in his conversations because he is instinctively dishonest but also because he fears telling the truth.  His constant efforts to avoid frank and direct talk annoy men because that is not Guy Code (TM) and those efforts also annoy women as he is more evasive regarding emotional matters than even they are.

Nick admits up front to conversational unease but stops short of admitting that putting his hand in front of his mouth, scratching his cheek, resting his head on his hand, etc. are all red warning flags of distress. 

He dresses like an adolescent, favors juvenile-looking sneakers including some that masquerade as dress shoes, wears an inordinate amount of jewelry/accessories and indeed looks very out of place and uncomfortable in adult suits and ties.

In sum:  not a fan of Nick.  At all. 

Ben is there.  He may have something worthwhile to contribute, except he spurned the female fusion reaction that was Jo Jo.  Dodgy judgment.

Ben:  ‘Don’t change who are you are for this.’  Er, isn’t he intentionally doing that already?

Sean is there:  ‘Some people saw Nick as this giant toolbag.  But…’  No buts, Sean.  He was.

Farmer Chris is there, notable mostly for squandering his chances by being more wooden than a cigar store Indian.

The ex-Bachelors are also suffering from scraggly beard syndrome.  They should be forced to binge watch DVDs of Miami Vice as aversion therapy.

Relationship advice from a teenage sister is a shaky start, it must be said.

Rachel is an ambulance chaser who will no doubt be a harsh cross-examiner if she doesn’t get her way.  Danielle L. is groomed to the hilt and will almost certainly be pressed into service as the manicurist.   Vanessa’s snakeskin pants and stiletto heels are, shall we say, a bit risqué for the classroom.  Josephine is worried about someone handling her ‘energy.’  Translation:  she’s bipolar and has the long-suffering cat to prove it.  Raven is either playing up to a stereotype or is reading her lines dutifully – ATVs, the Bible, football.  Corinne is a ‘very serious businesswoman’ who seriously runs a business her dad seriously started and owns.  Seriously.  Hey if it dropped in our laps we could all claim the same status.  Of course, we’d have to go stir-crazy in a high-rise condo packed in cheek-by-jowl with our, ahem, loving family but at least it would be serious. 

Alexis the Secaucus Jersey girl sounds like a chip-on-shoulder guest from the old Richard Bey talk show:  ‘Why din’t you cawl me afta awer date?’  Danielle M. is a softly-spoken Southern nurse but still has the dubious bad-girl finger tattoos, thus perpetuating the mystery:  if women spend so much time worry about the appearance of their hands/nails, why do they apply unsightly blue-black graffiti to them, including between the fingers where neither they nor anyone else can make out what the design is supposed to be? 

Speaking of questions, there’s Taylor?  Who is an uptalker?  Which would drive me nuts?  Especially if I was already a bit unstable and had her for a counselor?  Aren’t biracial people a completely common phenomenon now, especially in large coastal cities?  Liz has a past.  We all do.  Unfortunately, her past includes a physical encounter with Nick.  Poor thing.

Danielle L. arrives and has managed to wear more cleavage than actual dress.  It may be painful to take that double-sided tape off later tonight but she owns salons and probably knows a good waxer.  A Junior Leaguer arrives and I’ve forgotten her name already.  Okie Christen looks like a lemon gumdrop.

Taylor’s chat up line:  ‘Everyone in the world hates you except me.’  Charming even if true.  Hmmm…Kentucky Kristina is naturally beautiful despite the overdose of blusher and quietly confident.  Lots of potential if Nimrod Nick can manage to spot it.  Lauren is 30 and a law school graduate which, translated from Old Fleissian, means ‘hasn’t passed the bar exam yet.’  Dominique deserves a special rose (first impression or otherwise) for unashamedly declaring her real occupation of restaurant server.  Ida Marie may as well carry a neon sign reading TOMBOY.  We’ve been blissfully free of gimmick entrances until the eskimo and the jogger appear.  And Neil bloody Lane.  Hailey the photographer has a very Love Boat 1978 vibe about her with the red dress and hair (not a bad thing) but hasn’t Nick been down this road before with a B’ette from Vancouver BC?  Decent native German accent from Astrid.

Now the trinkets are being handed over.  Tokens, honey, hog calls, stethoscopes, books, hot dogs,  etc.  I hate to give trade secrets away but a female who stepped out of the limo and handed over a hoppy, chilled IPA in the proper glass could write her own ticket.  Jaimi is keeping the spirit of the year 2003 alive with her bull ring nose piercing.  Ugh. 

Josephine is transmitting on the same KRA-Z FM frequency as Melissa of Pizza With Onions infamy.  Run, Nick!  Or don’t.  It might be interesting watching you deal with a stalker.  Are these ladies seriously surprised by red dress overload?  It’s the most obvious choice in the universe.  We don’t need a return of the rhinestone/sequin excess of some prior years but how about some beige or neutral shades?  The hump joke was equally obvious.  No need to repeat it.

Nothing the producers can do about the rotation of planets so the rejected girls are leaving in the early morning light – a tipoff to how long the filming sessions really last (ie all night) before they are mercilessly and mendaciously edited.

Corinne is being given the Bunny Boiler/intense stare edit the first night.  Perhaps it’s deserved?  Perhaps the multimillion dollar business is a porn distribution company?  She seems to have learned all her dialogue and moves from adult entertainment.

Preview segments are often more revealing than the producers would like.  A core group of B’ettes is shown repeatedly – that probably isn’t down to coincidence or misdirection.  Horny Nick gives way to Weepy Nick which gives way to weepy females although they were probably there already.  Nick’s finale is held in a very cold climate (Finland, apparently).  Is this for variety’s sake or, perhaps, because the producers don’t really like him in the end?

Edited January 3, 2017 by Rainsong

[Kbilly]

Thanks MaddingCrowd I am also a former Milwaukeean and MU grad! I wonder if I could've ran into Nick on the East Side when I was in college as we're the same age--although he was probably still working with that Peter MacNichol fluffy hair. In the previews by the time he's popping the question his hair has gone Full Jordan/Robby Bouffant.

He does have a lisp but I think it's also what Joel MacHale was saying on Jimmy--that he talks while he smiles! The lisp was never more obvious than his multiple takes of saying "Bachelor".

I think he's really taken with that soft-spoken nurse--when he seemingly nervously asked her if she worked in a hospital that was pretty cute!

[Padma]

2 hours ago, backformore said:

I never understood what Nick did to warrant hatred.  The thing I recall was that he asked Andi why she had sex with him if she was in love with Josh.  Then that was seen as "slut shaming", though, come on!  This is a show that gives the lead "fantasy suite" overnight dates to help them decide who to get engaged to.  Can we actually blame someone for calling out that behavior??

ITA. I've always liked Nick. I thought he was very mature in Andi's season--and adorably vulnerable--when he told her he was in love with her and asked that, if she didn't share those feelings, please don't have sex with him. It would have been effortless for her to go to the FS and NOT have sex! She did it anyway and I was apparently one of a small minority who thought of her as a biatch for doing it (and a few other things, too. She was a good b-ette, but would never be someone I'd want to be around.)

Nick seems smarter than the usual bachelor, which is so refreshing.  His dry humor is welcome (and, seriously, it was a psychologist/counselor who told him, not once but several times, that "My friends said you're a piece of ****"? Way to read a room, psychology expert!) 

1 hour ago, b2H said:

Funny:  my hubby said last night about how Whitney, who he really liked, has disappeared from The Bachelor universe.  I guess she hasn't disppeared completely.......

She was great--way too good for Chris S.. Thanks for posting her tweet because, yeah.  Who would want advice from Chris?

I like Nick, but was initially disappointed to see how obviously he checked each woman out, often continuing to look "down" rather than making eye contact and then turning to watch each one walk away. Then I wasn't sure. I mean--the women want to show him what they have and he wants to know.  It's tacky, but this is "the Bachelor". Why -not- look/ogle/near-lear?

[reggiejax]

2 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

noted man whore Nick Vile

And this is why for all the claims of double standards against women versus men, sometimes there is a double standard the other way too. So many screamed slut shaming for anyone who criticized Andi for sleeping with Nick days before choosing Josh and especially after saying she knew she Josh was the one for her fairly early. And it was the same regarding people's opinions of Kaitlyn and her actions during her season. Yet Nick is constantly regarded by some as a man-whore and I don't know what that is based off of.

Since it was me you quoted, I felt I should respond and say that my referring to Nick as a "noted man whore" was a joke, and not a moral judgment in any way.

Really it was just a way (a crude way to be sure) to refer to his sexual activity while on the various shows of this franchise.

I guess I could have called him a "ladies man" or a "playboy", but "noted man whore" just seemed way funnier to me.

And trust me, there is no double standard, not on my part anyway, because I have no judgment whatsoever on Nick's sex life, or the sex life of any member of Bachelor Nation, male or female. These people are adults (legally anyway) and can commiserate as they see fit. 

But if my phrasing bothers people, I can certainly put a stop to it. There are other terms to use, and many more ways to poke fun at Nick. The guy is just a comedic gold mine.

[Ketzel]

15 hours ago, Padma said:

Some of the conversations seemed mature. Some of the crude girls made me wonder....does that really work? (And on television?) 

I just assumed the women were choosing between an "Andi" approach and a "Kaitlyn" approach, since those seem to be the models of previous success. Wasn't Kaitlyn the one who greeted Farmer Chris with "You can plow the fuck out of my field, anytime?"

Edited January 3, 2017 by Ketzel

[violetr]

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Sensitive New Age Guy (SNAG) Nick as an object of fascination, to say nothing of desire, on the part of the producers and the B’ettes remains a mystery.  He’s worked out, grown his extremely passe tough-guy beard and the camera shots and editing are palpably desperate in their attempts to portray this resolutely Beta male as the Ultimate Hunk Of Masculinity.  Whatever we might have thought of Brad, Jesse or even Ben they were blokes’ blokes and the red blood coursing through their veins was nearly audible.  Or was that the nonstop cymbal crescendos as punched in by the audio engineers?

Ha! Rainsong, you never cease to amuse. And terrify! I read things like this and I'm reminded of how happy I am in my little Bay Area bubble where so-called "blokes' blokes" with loudly swooshing red blood are the exception, not the norm. I am happily married to a SNAG.  

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I'm just still picking my jaw up off the ground at the notion that a woman thought the way to make a lovely first impression on a man was to first tell him she "has balls" and then reach up and PULL SOMETHING OUT OF HER NOSE. 

Uh, yeah, not how I would play that either. But hey, at least we got our first openly bisexual contestant (at least as far as I can recall)!

[Ms Blue Jay]

What is the name of the "model in a red dress" that Nick eliminated that everyone's talking about?  Thanks.

Thanks @dleighg

Edited January 3, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[dleighg]

2 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

What is the name of the "model in a red dress" that Nick eliminated that everyone's talking about?  Thanks.

apparently: http://www.refinery29.com/2017/01/134518/bachelor-elimination-list-who-went-home-season-21#slide-1

[Kbilly]

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Josephine is worried about someone handling her ‘energy.’  Translation:  she’s bipolar and has the long-suffering cat to prove it.

BWAH!  "You're a wiener in my book" -"I haven't eaten a raw hot dog since I was six". I thought she was toast for sure but he kept her around. She is in a Mesa Verde all her own.

[saber5055]

Oh, yuck, my broadcast cut away before the "balls" chick pulled whatever out of her nose, thank the gods, so I missed that. (Again, thank you gods.) It also cut away when one of the b-ettes put on a rubber glove to do a rectal exam on Nick's prostate. Yeah, I think this season had the most gross and crude intros. They were either pretty much nothing (Hi, give me a hug, see ya later, walk away) or nasty. I also thought the general overall pretty/beautiful factor was down, not that one should pick a mate on looks, but hey, this is The Bachelor, complete with scenes of naked Nick showering his abs and "jogging" shirtless with shorts about to fall off. (Not that there's anything wrong with that!) I'd think more wannabe models and actresses would be on board based on looks, not substance.

[TheFinalRose]

I've always liked Nick, too. In the triumvirate of Andi Dorfman, Josh Murray and Nick Viall, I couldn't track how Nick was considered the awful one. Likewise, I didn't love all the voice overs last night saying Nick was a jerk. C'mon Fleiss; don't throw your star under the bus like that.

I had to hand it to Dolphin Girl. There's a girl who kept to the script and wouldn't be told otherwise. And she did it all with a smile. I think she's earned herself a spot on BIP just on the strength of last night's performance.

[Wings]

53 minutes ago, Kbilly said:

BWAH!  "You're a wiener in my book" -"I haven't eaten a raw hot dog since I was six". I thought she was toast for sure but he kept her around. She is in a Mesa Verde all her own.

He didn't keep her, production did. All leads say you know after the first night the 4 or 5 who stand out to you.  Production keeps those they want for drama.  I doubt  Liz or Jaws were on his list either. 

Edited January 3, 2017 by wings707

[Mabinogia]

2 hours ago, Padma said:

I like Nick, but was initially disappointed to see how obviously he checked each woman out, often continuing to look "down" rather than making eye contact and then turning to watch each one walk away. Then I wasn't sure. I mean--the women want to show him what they have and he wants to know.  It's tacky, but this is "the Bachelor". Why -not- look/ogle/near-lear?

See, and I actually loved him a little more for that. It was so honest. Like you said, these chicks didn't dress like they did to not be looked at. I like that he has a healthy appreciation for the female form. What I like more is that it didn't seem to be a deciding factor in who he chose. I mean, he picked a girl whose body he hasn't even seen yet.

I like that 1) he actively tried to spend time with each woman 2) was uncomfortable when Business Barbie kissed him where the others could see 3) everything about the way he handled Liz 4) how he actually seemed to be enjoying himself (and in more than the typical "pretty girls are talking to me" way. and 5) that he was asking "real world" questions. "what school did you go to" "where do you work" "what kind of law do you practice" as if he actually is interested in them as more than just arm candy (which can't be said for most previous bachelors who really seemed to just want a pretty, camera ready girl to take selfies with).

I'm optimistic about this season. With the exception of Business Barbie who is going to work my last nerve if he actually falls for her shit.

Edited January 3, 2017 by Mabinogia
fort he is not the same as for the

[Padma]

52 minutes ago, TheFinalRose said:

...I had to hand it to Dolphin Girl. There's a girl who kept to the script and wouldn't be told otherwise. And she did it all with a smile. I think she's earned herself a spot on BIP just on the strength of last night's performance.

I think so, too. But I hope someone makes her sit through "JAWS" beforehand. Otherwise, she may hurry deep into the tropical waters at the first sign of a "dolphin".

I think Nick was more grossed out by the raw hot dog than the disgusting nose balls and proctology exam.  (Women? Producers? Seriously?)  Still, he's a veteran of it and knew better than to be surprised by (or at least -show- much surprise at) anything they would throw at him.  No matter how much they like you (and from what CH writes, apparently the crew/producers DO like him) the main purpose of Night 1 is awkwardness, embarrassment and camp.

[truthaboutluv]

1 hour ago, reggiejax said:

Since it was me you quoted, I felt I should respond and say that my referring to Nick as a "noted man whore" was a joke, and not a moral judgment in any way.

Really it was just a way (a crude way to be sure) to refer to his sexual activity while on the various shows of this franchise.

I guess I could have called him a "ladies man" or a "playboy", but "noted man whore" just seemed way funnier to me.

And trust me, there is no double standard, not on my part anyway, because I have no judgment whatsoever on Nick's sex life, or the sex life of any member of Bachelor Nation, male or female. These people are adults (legally anyway) and can commiserate as they see fit. 

But if my phrasing bothers people, I can certainly put a stop to it. There are other terms to use, and many more ways to poke fun at Nick. The guy is just a comedic gold mine.

You don't have to stop saying what you want and sorry if my comment came across in any way that makes you feel you should. Unfortunately you were kind of the scapegoat for that comment. What I mean is you're not the first poster I've seen make comments to that effect about him and it's always baffled me. So when I saw your comment this morning, I responded. It's all good. 

[Padma]

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I like that 1) he actively tried to spend time with each woman 2) was uncomfortable when Business Barbie kissed him where the others could see 3) everything about the way he handled Liz 4) how he actually seemed to be enjoying himself (and in more than the typical "pretty girls are talking to me" way. and 5) that he was asking "real world" questions. "what school did you go to" "where do you work" "what kind of law do you practice" as if he actually is interested in them as more than just arm candy (which can't be said for most previous bachelors who really seemed to just want a pretty, camera ready girl to take selfies with).

These were all great, esp. re: Liz--hard to have the "right" reaction blindsided like that on television but he did very well. (Also, were I him, I'd think she'd passed up a chance to actually date me for a chance to possibly embarrass me on my first night on the show. Whatever the intent was--maybe just to get her face on television--it wasn't "right reasons". I thought he handled it great.) 

#5 in your list is my favorite. One of my biggest problems with this show is that we rarely know much about anyone. They start with "Wow, you look amazing." and then start talking about if they're really interested, or guarded, or whatever. I loved it that Nick seemed genuinely interested in what they do, where they went to school, their family, etc. Like an actual date.

I liked that Rachel got the first impression rose. It's always sad the way this show goes through African American contestants but I get the feeling Nick told them that he dates women of any race--or possibly even has had black girlfriends in the past. Nice its not an issue. Rachel seemed like just the right amount of outgoing without being hard-to-take.  I was impressed that, unlike lawyer Andi, she seemed very unpretentious and genuinely nice. Hope that impression lasts!

[ribboninthesky1]

15 hours ago, chocolatine said:

Liz made herself look really bad by coming on the show, but to her credit, whenever she said "we had sex" in her voice overs, that was obviously spliced in from another conversation. We never see her face when she says it. She may have said it in a one-on-one conversation with Nick in a later episode, but TPTB are making it look like she's telling it to anyone who'll listen.

I noticed the same.  She looked really uncomfortable to me, like even she wasn't buying what was coming out of her mouth, particularly when she was talking to Nick.  But hey, she wanted to be on the show, so take your lumps and all. 

As for Nick, he looked hot. Keep the nicely trimmed beard, Nick! But he has this nervous energy that I find off-putting. I don't know if he's uncomfortable in his own skin or what, but I guess I expected more given this is the 4th trip around the bend. Maybe he gives off a sexy vibe in person.  On my laptop screen, I'm not feeling it.  

I was highly amused at the overdramatic "Nick is the most controversial bachelor in history" via host!Chris' voiceover.  I was also highly entertained by the women who expressed, to paraphrase, "He's done this twice, so you know he's serious! He was so mature on BiP!" You'd think someone might ponder "red flag, proceed with caution," but who am I kidding? This will be an interesting season, if not unintentionally hilarious.  

[slowpoked]

3 minutes ago, ribboninthesky1 said:

I was highly amused at the overdramatic "Nick is the most controversial bachelor in history" via host!Chris' voiceover.  

I was so amused by that too. I mean, wasn't it just five or six years ago that Brad Womack was "the most controversial bachelor in history"? Tsk, tsk, this show, how easy it forgets its own. 

[truthaboutluv]

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As for Nick, he looked hot. Keep the nicely trimmed beard, Nick! But he has this nervous energy that I find off-putting. I don't know if he's uncomfortable in his own skin or what, but I guess I expected more given this is the 4th trip around the bend.

I think all of the leads are nervous on that first night and Nick was likely no different, no matter how many times he's been on the show. In fact, he was probably more nervous because there was the risk of exactly what we saw with women like Ms. Psychologist, "my friends think you're a piece of shit", where these women came in with not so great opinions of him. Most leads go into their seasons coming off being the beloved runner up, the fan favorite, etc. That's not Nick. He's the controversial pick as the show kindly reminded us repeatedly.

[Bobcatkitten]

Just a small thing - but was every mention of them having sex said through a voice over? Did we ever SEE her say it? I just ask because the first time it sounded very spliced and I wonder.

[Temperance]

I know other people who don't like flowers. Some people feel if you don't have a lot of money that it's money not well spent  considering they don't last. Other people are allergic.  People here mentioned other reasons, like they can die soon. I wonder if there are people who (perhaps even without realizing it) associate flowers with death or hospital visits, occasions that often have a lot of flowers. Other people may just be unused to being around flowers. 

When I heard neonatal nurse, my guess is she would have something of Whitney's personality (from Chris Soules' season) in terms being around babies a lot and wanting to start a family soon.

I like that there are many women of color on this season. 

Nick is not my favorite. I thought he was silly to assume Andi would pick him and not very gracious. By that time, anyone on the show should have been aware they were still competing. I also didn't see Nick (as he was on Andi's season) with Kaitlyn although I thought he treated her very well.  He's too intense for me, but reasonably good-looking. 

Edited January 4, 2017 by Temperance

[Mabinogia]

the "we had sex" was definitely spliced in, I would say every time we heard it this ep it was spliced. It never sounded organic, natural, or like all the words around it. Will be interesting to see where/when she actually said it.

I think Nick would be the most nervous Bachelor in the shows history on that first night because he knows there are a lot of haters out there, he also knows how production likes to fuck with the hamsters and might throw in a girl or two who want to "put him in his place" and also because he certainly knows what it feels like on the other side and I do think he cares about their feelings. He looked hella awkward with a lot of those intros but tried his best to say something positive or at least polite.

I wonder how he felt about having so many oversexed intros. He didn't look particularly impressed by no underwear girl, and wasn't enjoying hot dog girl, he did seem to appreciate camel/hump girl but I did think that one was kind of clever. He seemed more interested in the classier women like Rachel and Vanessa, or the funny ones like Dolphshark.

[alannaofdoom]

I immediately wrote Josephine off as "the 'wacky' one who talks to animals" - which she is, don't get me wrong - but her "weiner in my book" intro hit an Andy Kaufman sort of place where it was so terrible and bizarre and unfunny that it became funny and she won me over. Don't care if it's a production call - I hope she sticks around. 

I found myself immediately charmed by Danielle M - like others have said, she comes off as very warm and easygoing. Also, in a sea of identically curled extensions, I found her shorter hair very appealing. 

Corinne? Just no. No to everything. But also: WHAT. is WITH. the TOKENS???? Are you seven? Are you a slot machine? 

Literal LOL moment was one contesting using "double dipping" to describe Corinne "borrowing" Nick twice before everyone had a chance to chat with him. As if he were a condiment surrounded by walking half-eaten crudites. And, wow, that metaphor just got real weird, didn't it? 

Edited January 4, 2017 by alannaofdoom

[TheFinalRose]

Quote

 

So the final rose will be given out in Siberia? Or is it Antarctica? 

 

 

Quote

It's actually Finland, where I actually was, apparently at the same time the F3 and final rose were taking place.  

Most of the contestants, I imagine, will assume they are on the set of "Frozen."

[ribboninthesky1]

1 hour ago, alannaofdoom said:

I found myself immediately charmed by Danielle M - like others have said, she comes off as very warm and easygoing. Also, in a sea of identically curled extensions, I found her shorter hair very appealing. 

Agreed.  I didn't remember her name, and haven't formed much of an opinion on her personality, but your comment reminded me that I inwardly cheered for her hair.  I think I saw a couple of other women in the background with shorter hair, though I skipped through most of the rose ceremony, so not sure who went home. 

2 hours ago, slowpoked said:

I was so amused by that too. I mean, wasn't it just five or six years ago that Brad Womack was "the most controversial bachelor in history"? Tsk, tsk, this show, how easy it forgets its own. 

Yes, I believe you're right, ha! I'm no Nick fan, but this show is really doing some acrobatics with this supposed controversy.  I don't know what measurements are being used to determine that Nick was hated or a villain, especially during Andi's season.  I didn't watch Kaitlyn's, so maybe that's when he became a "villain?" I thought most were sympathetic to him after Andi's season. How is choosing a man who has participated in Bachelorverse three previous times in any way controversial? At least with Brad 2.0, the label made sense because of the way his first season ended.     

[Adeejay]

20 hours ago, gator12 said:

Bitter much?!

[jumper sage]

@Rainsong - You had me at the literary quote!  The beards?  Oh the beards, the sure sign of a hipster but usually those guys are in their 20s and are on Teen Mom.

1 hour ago, TheFinalRose said:

Most of the contestants, I imagine, will assume they are on the set of "Frozen."

Ha ha ha ha.....so true.  Now correct if I am wrong, but did we not see some of the finalists from the "coming this season" montage?  Either we did or they spend a lot of time on the set of Frozen.

What a waste of two hours.  I hated it and I watched it on Hulu.  They could have whittled that down to one hour.  I am sick of this new phenom of two hour shows.  I may be out.

I give you all credit for knowing so many of the girl's names.  I know Liz and hmmmmmmmmmmmmm is it Rachel?

4 hours ago, dleighg said:

apparently: http://www.refinery29.com/2017/01/134518/bachelor-elimination-list-who-went-home-season-21#slide-1

The best part of your link was that it ran into Disney princesses dressed as modern girls.

[fib]

I feel the need to applaud Nick for not ever saying anything along the lines of "Im not lovable" (Ben) or "I such a nice guy, why don't women appreciate that"? He seems to know who he is (Boob Guy, likes sex), and women who are strong.  I'm optimistic this will be an interesting season, even if Nick is not my favorite person ever to be a part of this series.  

 

As far as nick slut shaming, no... he didn't slut shame Andi.  But he did air her (and his) dirty laundry on national tv when he knew her fiance was boar.  So he at least in part enabled Josh's slut shaming of her and America's.  That said, I think the ship has sailed on that one for Andi, as she aired a LOT more dirty laundry in her book than Nick ever did. 

My main concern is that Nick may be quite awkward in bed for someone so otherwise self composed.  I mean, he slept with Andi and Kaitlyn AND now Liz and none of them were interested in more? Eeeps.  That's a pretty bad track record of women on reality tv who don't want seconds.  Does he even have competition in this arena?

[sarkygal]

4 hours ago, TheFinalRose said:

I've always liked Nick, too. In the triumvirate of Andi Dorfman, Josh Murray and Nick Viall, I couldn't track how Nick was considered the awful one. Likewise, I didn't love all the voice overs last night saying Nick was a jerk. C'mon Fleiss; don't throw your star under the bus like that.

I really liked Nick on Andi's season. He stood out in a sea of hyper-masculine jocks and other than his mumbling and skinny jeans, I would have liked him too. And I have no issues with what he asked Andi on ATFR either. He did seem genuinely hurt and the public reaction was extreme, IMO.

Like every other hamster, he's turned into an even bigger famewhore, but I still like him better than most folks on the franchise. I'm rooting for him. He seems so invested in Bachelor Koolaid now that I don't think he can find someone outside of this. To that end, my 2 instant favourites Rachel and Vanessa may be too classy/normal for him. Unless they drink the koolaid and become major famewhores too. 

[piewarmer]

Perhaps my favorite moment ever on this show was from last night, a shot of several ladies that made it clear tensions were running high, and something of vital importance was at stake...leading to a shot of one of them tossing a bit of snack into the gaping maw of yes-a-shark, while the rest erupted in cheers.

[ByTor]

21 hours ago, TomGirl said:

Vanessa reminds me of a young Andie McDowell. 

I see more Madeline Stowe in her.

[truthaboutluv]

Quote

So he at least in part enabled Josh's slut shaming of her and America's.

Yeah no. Andi admitted to Josh she slept with Nick before he spilled the beans on national television because after lying to Josh for months that she didn't, she was worried about what the show would reveal and so before they did it, she came clean. And Josh was already pissed about that. The whole reason Andi felt she had to lie about it was because of Josh's attitude regarding her being with Nick. I am sorry, I will not blame Nick for Josh's toolish, controlling, testosterone driven personality. This is a man who at age 30 had never had a serious relationship and he's just had failed engagement number two from the franchise. Josh and Andi's screwed up and horrible relationship was all on them in my opinion and I am tired of Nick being scapegoated for it falling apart. 

Quote

My main concern is that Nick may be quite awkward in bed for someone so otherwise self composed.  I mean, he slept with Andi and Kaitlyn AND now Liz and none of them were interested in more? Eeeps.  That's a pretty bad track record of women on reality tv who don't want seconds. 

Kaitlyn had seconds and from rumor, more than seconds. I guess after the backlash after the ATFR for Andi's season, he learned (not to mention I still say he wasn't that in love and subsequently heartbroken by Kaitlyn), so that time Nick chose to downplay the relationship with Kaitlyn but US Weekly and the Bachelor Nation rumor mill made it clear that Kaitlyn was pretty much back and forth with Nick and Shawn for most of the season, right up to telling Nick she loved him. In the end she picked the best guy for her - she's a lush and he's a greasy idiot and they're clearly still very happy together.

And Andi, per her own admission was more than willing to go for seconds but apparently his apartment wasn't up to her snobby, pretentious standard so I guess it killed the mood for her. And Liz didn't give Nick her number because she had her sights set on going on The Bachelor. So why would she try to start a relationship with "the most controversial" contestant in the franchise? 

eta: One of my favorite moments I forgot to mention was Shark girl's sisters basically telling her that if she wore the costume and made the dolphin noises, they would deny knowing her. I thought that was hilarious. 

Edited January 4, 2017 by truthaboutluv

[fib]

2 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

 And Josh was already pissed about that.  The whole reason Andi felt she had to lie about it was because of Josh's attitude regarding her being with Nick. I am sorry, I will not blame Nick for Josh's toolish, controlling, testosterone driven personality. This is a man at age 30 had never had a serious relationship and he's just had failed engagement number two from the franchise. Josh and Andi's fucked up and horrible relationship was all on them and I am tired of Nick being scapegoated for it falling apart. 

 

Thanks for the clarification on the timing of Andi's reveal.  You clearly know more than me.  I was not trying to blame Nick for Josh's behavior AT ALL.  That is all on Josh.  

I do believe that his question wasn't a very classy move. Especially, since Nick had lived in the house with Josh, Nick  had better insight into how awful Josh was than viewers did, since Josh got the winner's edit.  Though Andi is the one who picked him. He knew he was going to ask her that.  He could have picked better language than he ended up with.  I don't like the way he asked her. (I don't have a problem with the question - I just think that its not the kind of thing you ask in front of a studio audience and America.  YET. 

[truthaboutluv]

Quote

He could have picked better language than he ended up with. 

He asked her, "if you weren't in love with me, why did you make love to me"? What is so awful in that language? He wasn't crude. He simply acknowledged that they were intimate. I guess maybe some would feel better if he had said "why were you intimate with me" But something tells me people would have still clutched their pearls and acted like it was the worse thing in the world. And after all that pearl clutching, Andi decided to share in very crude detail about said love making in her book. 

[MadMom97]

"Horrifying and magnificent."

Love it!

[fib]

6 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

He asked her, "if you weren't in love with me, why did you make love to me"? What is so awful in that language? He wasn't crude. He simply acknowledged that they were intimate. I guess maybe some would feel better if he had said "why were you intimate with me" But something tells me people would have still clutched their pearls and acted like it was the worse thing in the world. And after all that pearl clutching, Andi decided to share in very crude detail about said love making in her book. 

There's nothing wrong with that language.  As I said, I have no problem with the question.  I have  a problem with the forum. America clutched their pearls.  I didnt.  As far as language, he could have gone with, "If you weren't in love with me, why would you make me feel so loved?" or "If you weren't in love with me, why did you invite me to the fantasy suite" (and then if she didnt get it he could have followed up with, "But when the cameras were gone, you could have been honest with me, but you left me feeling like I was the one you were going to pick."  

Like I said in my original post - who cares about the dirty laundry -that ship has sailed - She aired a lot more dirty laundry in her book.

I think Nick unfairly get blamed for slut shaming Andi.  I just don't think he's an angel either.  But apparently, neither does he, so I think that's good for the series. 

[Wandering Snark]

2 hours ago, alannaofdoom said:

Corinne? Just no. No to everything. But also: WHAT. is WITH. the TOKENS???? Are you seven? Are you a slot machine? 

I think your descriptor is one vowel off... but yeah the first one was fine in the grand scheme of things then she handed him like 500 in that bag. I want to know what was on those others as we saw her class level. I wouldn't doubt that a few referenced her 'vagine' as she seems to hold to that as one of her best "traits".

Edit: Which makes me remember laughing at all the stuff they were giving to him and his kind of looking around like 'okay so can someone take this before the next woman comes out' esp. the eskimo girl's fur.

Edited January 4, 2017 by Wandering Snark

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Did The Bachelor Just Jump The Shark?

The new season begins with 29 well-dressed ladies, and one who never takes off her shark costume.

[TiredMe]

I was somewhat critical of Nick because of the way he called out Andi. Everyone knows it happens with at least the final two on every season. I just felt it tacky to bring it up on national television because it was childishly designed to harm her. Grow up, it's the premise of the show. However I don't hate him,  and I do not find him remotely attractive. But I'm back for more because I love this cheesy goodness! 

I think Nick ended up with a ton of immature women. Maybe they seemed that way from the nervousness of night one. 

[Padma]

1 hour ago, truthaboutluv said:

He asked her, "if you weren't in love with me, why did you make love to me"? What is so awful in that language? He wasn't crude. He simply acknowledged that they were intimate. I guess maybe some would feel better if he had said "why were you intimate with me" But something tells me people would have still clutched their pearls and acted like it was the worse thing in the world. And after all that pearl clutching, Andi decided to share in very crude detail about said love making in her book. 

Yes, especially because he told her in advance--and we even heard it--don't sleep with me if you aren't reciprocating my feelings!  As far as I'm concerned, the responsibility was ALL on her. (And his sister had even told her much the same--"My brother's been hurt before. Please don't hurt him again, just let him go." or some such. That was heartbreaking--not that Andi ever seemed to care about anyone but herself.  I was glad to see Bella again this season because she's so sweet. I hope Nick really does find someone that his sister can enjoy telling him "I like her!" over).

Then Andi--so self-righteous and unsympathetic to the way she led Nick on (when he ASKED her not to)--was even MORE self-righteous when Juan Pablo led HER on!  And JP never even remotely said anything like "I love you". But she was still p*ssed!

I'm glad Nick's got this chance and I hope he'll turn into a viewer favorite by the end (Not like Chris S. who just wants to watch football and drink beer at home. Or Sean who's a control freak. Or Ben, who I thought was such a great guy until the end when, no, he just seemed like a selfish player.  Why were those three giving Nick romantic advice?  I'd have rather heard from Ryan Sutter--never a bachelor, but still--or Andy Firestone. I'm hoping Nick is more like that IRL, rather than Chris-Ben-Sean).

[jade.black]

I love Nick. This is the most excited I've ever been for a Bachelor premiere because it's the first time I've been interested in (and VERY ATTRACTED TO) the lead! I don't understand this "villain" edit either... and when Ben told him he'd have to offer up an apology for all of his past mistakes to whoever he picks?! Huh? What has he done wrong? He showed up on two shows, was interested in the lead, and never did anything to the other guys. The whole situation with Andi on ATFR happened because she refused to talk to him when he tried to contact her before taping. That was the only chance he had to bring it up. Also, Josh was an aggressive tool. I also remember Chris being a little bitch to him and didn't understand why he'd be included in the circle of pre-show advice.

9 hours ago, Rainsong said:

He’s worked out, grown his extremely passe tough-guy beard and the camera shots and editing are palpably desperate in their attempts to portray this resolutely Beta male as the Ultimate Hunk Of Masculinity.  Whatever we might have thought of Brad, Jesse or even Ben they were blokes’ blokes and the red blood coursing through their veins was nearly audible

And uh... that's not a turn-on for all females. Nick is a far sexier man than all of those guys combined. Their seasons were ridiculously boring. What about those "alpha males" was interesting in any sense? Ben was bland as bland can be, Brad was cute and sincere but had no substance, and all these other Bachelors were dumb as rocks (Chris), had no personality, or were a hilarious trainwreck in it for fun like Juan Pablo. As a 28 year old woman who appreciates a man with intelligence, Nick is the best bachelor yet. And sorry if it offends your idea of the kind of masculinity girls should be attracted to, but Nick is HOT. Give me a laid-back and witty equal partner any day. 

I really liked him starting with Andi's season because, while he wasn't as good-looking as he's become now (those abs, that beard, yess), he brought this passion and energy to their interactions that was so sexy. He's always been a favorite of mine and I never could understand why he was villified. BIP only confirmed what I'd already thought of him.

It's endearing that he seems clearly nervous. He knows what it's like to be a contestant. During his first conversation with Rachel I was encouraging him (via screen) to have a few drinks to calm down! It was cute and real and appealing, but I say that as someone who is also hyper self-aware. I could only imagine having to be on camera with the whole world judging. Also, I love that he is SO direct. It was the greatest watching him flat out tell Ashley I. on BIP what she needed to hear, and it was equally great to watch him refuse to let dolphin girl get away with thinking her costume was anything but a shark and also his smackdown of Liz who could have called him anytime since the wedding but instead decided she was interested once he was on TV.

I don't know about these contestants though. They should have done better for a 36 year old Bachelor. I've already mentally eliminated half the pool due to age... anyone under 27 is disqualified. Also, intros are always cringeworthy, but man, these were rough. Nose ring girl ("putting it all out there" ?! I didn't know nose rings were the height of edginess), raw weiner crazy girl (it's easier to pass off a producer pick as genuine when the girl looks like Ashley S... not like this chick), the virgin with the fan (reminded me of something I'd see on Burning Love), Neil Lane... yikes. 

I liked neonatal nurse, and she and Nick can mumble back and forth at each other. I'm glad he likes smart women which is obviously why Rachel got the first rose. I liked her too, but shallow observation: she needs to do something about her hair. The middle-part with her forehead is not a great combo. Maybe bangs? Russian girl Kristina is by far the prettiest to me, but she's 24 which is a major downfall on this season. Shark/dolphin chick was cute and smiley but so immature, because she is 23, and also doesn't know that her ultimate fave animal ever has a blowhole instead of gills. Why did they not put together an age-appropriate cast?! Even if they thought Luke would be Bach, he was also in his 30s! 

There were a few attractive girls I was surprised were eliminated, but then I remembered what we'd seen of them. Lauren had that awful last name introduction, and hot model (who put me off because she looked like Britt) quoted Sex and the City at him. I did think the Alaskan girl should have been kept around, but maybe he didn't like that she used him as a coat rack. Still, more forgivable than making him eat a raw hot dog. Whatever.

The whole time I was yelling at the screen, "JUST SHOW UP AND BE HOT." You don't need a gimmick! Boobs (salon girl) just showed up and was hot. Third rose. Boom.

Edited January 4, 2017 by jade.black

[backformore]

6 hours ago, Temperance said:

When I heard neonatal nurse, my guess is she would have something of Whitney's personality (from Chris Soules' season) in terms being around babies a lot and wanting to start a family soon.

It could be the opposite, though.   Whitney was a fertility specialist - helping women get pregnant.  A neonatal nurse deals with preemies, babies with serious disabilities.   I knew a neonatal nurse who was petrified to get pregnant because of all the patients she saw who didn't make it. 

6 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

I wonder how he felt about having so many oversexed intros. He didn't look particularly impressed by no underwear girl, and wasn't enjoying hot dog girl, he did seem to appreciate camel/hump girl but I did think that one was kind of clever. He seemed more interested in the classier women like Rachel and Vanessa, or the funny ones like Dolphshark.

I think Nick's experience on the B'ette  gave him the perspective that these women didn't come up with these intros on their own.  Bringing the diamond ring guy? arriving on a camel?   The wiener in the book?  Nick wasn't going to be fooled.  When Liz showed up, the expression on Nick's face said to me "The producers are really fucking with me!" 

On the Jimmy Kimmel after-show, I noticed that, though Andi and Nick seemed friendly, and said they were friendly with each other, Nick and Kaitlyn had little to say to each other after hello, there seemed to be some animosity.    Even the seating - You'd expect Nick to be in the middle. Instead, Andi was between Nick and Kaitlyn, and Kaitlyn turned toward Jimmy, trying to make the interview all about her, pretty much ignoring Nick. 

[Padma]

I can't stand Kaitlyn and hoped she and disgusting Shawn would ride off together and never be heard from again. Yet TB keeps trotting them out (while nice, attractive couples like Des and Chris are shunted off to the side all the time). Go figure. Kaitlyn has the same self-centered, self-righteousness that I can't stand in Andi, but at least Andi is intelligent. I just find Kaitlyn gross and really can't understand what Nick saw in her that made him think about more than a one night stand.

I loved Vanessa's choice of dress, the zebra print. Refreshingly different--but especially, it looked great amid the sea of red dresses--the perfect contrast for her! She seems pretty quiet but I think that may wear well over time (unlike, say Corinne.)  Robin was working my last nerve in her intro, but then seemed okay at the party so maybe she won't be so bad (not for Nick, I don't think, but at least bubbly and pleasant for the show).

Those clips showed him with real tears--something I can't remember from anyone who cried before, man or woman. Hopefully, he will not leave this one heartbroken. That would really give CH his "most shocking RC ever".