Joy and Austin: This One Time At Family Camp

[Ohiopirate02]

Just now, PikaScrewChu said:

Bold prediction. I don't think Austin and Joy are going to hit the double digits now.

I'm ready to come back in 15 years and eat my words though.

I agree with you.  I think losing Annabelle(sp?) has hopefully had them reevaluating their family, and they will step off the baby-train for awhile.  Joy and Austin seem to love each other and have a strong bond, and both definitely love Gideon.  Hopefully they will relax and enjoy their family of 3, and delay expanding.

[libgirl2]

Just now, Ohiopirate02 said:

I agree with you.  I think losing Annabelle(sp?) has hopefully had them reevaluating their family, and they will step off the baby-train for awhile.  Joy and Austin seem to love each other and have a strong bond, and both definitely love Gideon.  Hopefully they will relax and enjoy their family of 3, and delay expanding.

I think it will just compel them to work on baby 3 asap. 

[PikaScrewChu]

It's hard to say which way it goes. I don't think we will get a Forsyth #3 announcement until Joy is 23-24 weeks along this time around.

They've been on a social media posting frenzy though since the stillbirth. It's very odd to see a constant social media presence from these two when they were fairly quiet beforehand.

[farmgal4]

On 8/13/2019 at 7:51 AM, Annabel11 said:

Jackson's always left out of that crowd. Saw a video of Jed  grabbing him roughly and pushing him out of the way in the bedroom reveal. 

Jackson may be at ALERT camp, getting the life shamed out of him.

[Scarlett45]

41 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

I think it will just compel them to work on baby 3 asap. 

Yeah I agree. I still see Joy hitting double digits before she’s 35 as far as living children go. (Sooner if she has twins)

 I don’t think one 2nd trimester miscarriage will change anything (other than perhaps delaying a public announcement). 

[JoanArc]

1 hour ago, libgirl2 said:

I think it will just compel them to work on baby 3 asap. 

Asap is Lauren’s baby. 

[Tasya]

1 hour ago, Scarlett45 said:

Yeah I agree. I still see Joy hitting double digits before she’s 35 as far as living children go. (Sooner if she has twins)

 I don’t think one 2nd trimester miscarriage will change anything (other than perhaps delaying a public announcement). 

I think that a stillborn baby is a lot different than a 2nd trimester miscarriage. I do think that they are going to stop and reflect for at least a little bit. Gideon may actually reach 2 before they announce another pregnancy. 

[Scarlett45]

4 minutes ago, Tasya said:

I think that a stillborn baby is a lot different than a 2nd trimester miscarriage. I do think that they are going to stop and reflect for at least a little bit. Gideon may actually reach 2 before they announce another pregnancy. 

Didn’t Joy have a second trimester miscarriage?(I could be misremembering please forgive me) Fetal demise occurred around 15-16weeks I thought, or am I thinking about someone else?

[PikaScrewChu]

Just now, Scarlett45 said:

Didn’t Joy have a second trimester miscarriage?(I could be misremembering please forgive me) Fetal demise occurred around 15-16weeks I thought, or am I thinking about someone else?

They went in for the ultrasound June 26th at 20 weeks and discovered no heartbeat.

Jubilee was fetal demise at 16 weeks and technically a second trimester miscarriage.

[Scarlett45]

1 minute ago, PikaScrewChu said:

They went in for the ultrasound June 26th at 20 weeks and discovered no heartbeat.

Jubilee was fetal demise at 16 weeks and technically a second trimester miscarriage.

Thank you! Perhaps I was thinking of Jubilee. 

[Nysha]

According to E!News, the baby was stillborn at 20 weeks. They posted pictures of them holding a dressed teeny-tiny baby, so I'm sure they consider her a stillborn baby as opposed to a miscarriage.

[PikaScrewChu]

Probably. Jubilee was measuring at 15/16 weeks so that's when they pinpointed that Michelle miscarried. Joy and Austin have never said anything further than there was no heartbeat at the 20 week ultrasound at the end of June. The only thing we knew prior to that was that Joy was due between Kendra and Lauren.

Edited August 14, 2019 by PikaScrewChu

[Scarlett45]

55 minutes ago, Nysha said:

According to E!News, the baby was stillborn at 20 weeks. They posted pictures of them holding a dressed teeny-tiny baby, so I'm sure they consider her a stillborn baby as opposed to a miscarriage.

Ah okay. To amend my previous post- I don’t think one still birth will slow down Joy and Austin’s family size.

Unless there is an underlying medical issue which will effect her ability to carry future pregnancies to term (and we have been given no evidence of that), I see her hitting double digits by 35. If they keep having penile-vaginal intercourse without contraception she will be pregnant sooner rather than later. 

I’m not suggesting Joy isn’t grieving or doesn’t have any emotions about the experience, I just don’t think those emotions are going to change her stance on being quiver-full. 

[galaxychaser]

Joy will probably be pregnant by Xmas.

[doodlebug]

55 minutes ago, Nysha said:

According to E!News, the baby was stillborn at 20 weeks. They posted pictures of them holding a dressed teeny-tiny baby, so I'm sure they consider her a stillborn baby as opposed to a miscarriage.

The definition of stillbirth is kind of fluid.  In Ohio, where I practice, it is up to the doctor to declare a loss to be a stillbirth or not.  Used to be, all fetal demises prior to 20 weeks were not stillbirths and all those after were.  The problem is that many times, though the demise is discovered at 20 weeks, it has occurred weeks before then; so 20 weeks doesn't really describe the development of the fetus.  There was also a time when we weighed the fetus and, unless it weighed at least 500 grams, a little over a pound, it was not a stillbirth.

There are several reasons for this.  First, babies declared stillborns  generally need to be handled as any person who died. If you've ever paid for a funeral, you know how expensive even the simplest ones can be.  Most morticians do not charge full fees for handling a stillbirth, but it is still an expense which would not happen in the case of a miscarriage.  As a miscarriage, the baby is handled the way that all medical tissue is handled, usually cremated and disposed of areas designated for it, but not the way a human body would be handled. 

The other thing is, if a baby is stillborn and not a miscarriage; some public assistance programs will give a one time payment to the mother, or at least they used to do this.  It is only a few hundred dollars, but, for someone who doesn't have much, it can be important.

There is also the fact that some parents really want the documentation that comes with declaring their child as a stillbirth.  Just as there are state issued birth certificates, there are stillbirth certificates which have to be signed by the practitioner who did the delivery.  There is nothing similar for a miscarriage although hospitals where I've practiced have often had their own certificate given to the parents to commemorate the pregnancy after a miscarriage.

I am of the opinion that the loss of Annabell hasn't changed Joy's or Austin's thinking on the topic of pregnancy and she is going to be trying again soon if she isn't already.  A lifetime of being told that God wants them to have as many babies as possible isn't going to be erased by a single loss.

Edited August 14, 2019 by doodlebug

[PikaScrewChu]

I don't think the Duggar women were built for birthin' and pregnancy like their mother was. Granted Michelle did manage to have competent medical care throughout her pregnancies and deliveries. Who is to say if she hadn't had the care she did?

I think JB and Meech set the expectations too high and made it all look just that easy. It reminds me of one sex ed teacher I had that told us pregnancy and childbirth was no big deal. His wife had easy pregnancies and his wife's two labors were 90 minutes and 45 minutes long.

There are times I half wonder if that's part of the reason we had a bunch of pregnancy scares shortly afterwards.

[Sew Sumi]

3 hours ago, PikaScrewChu said:

It's hard to say which way it goes. I don't think we will get a Forsyth #3 announcement until Joy is 23-24 weeks along this time around.

They've been on a social media posting frenzy though since the stillbirth. It's very odd to see a constant social media presence from these two when they were fairly quiet beforehand.

I don't think Joy could go so long without announcing, unless she totally stays off social media. She tends to show RIGHT AWAY. 

[PikaScrewChu]

Just now, Sew Sumi said:

I don't think Joy could go so long without announcing, unless she totally stays off social media. She tends to show RIGHT AWAY. 

Yeah as soon as she drops off the radar (especially with how frequently she's posting on social media right now) the rumors are going to start.

I don't think they're going to confirm until they're in the viability zone after this. The Forsyths (Austin moreso than Joy) don't seem to crave the spotlight the way the others do. Joy will be under the microscope every step of the way and it seems neither one particularly enjoys it.

[BitterApple]

I think Joy will get pregnant again very quickly. If they're having sex regularly and not using birth control, it's inevitable.

[GeeGolly]

I think Joy will be pregnant as soon as possible. A friend of mine delivered a stillborn at 26 weeks. Purely devastating. This baby was planned and although she was grieving this loss it didn't lessen her want for a child. She delivered her healthy beautiful baby about a year after her loss.

I think Joy will announce right away. They believe life begins at conception. I believe Joy and Austin were fine with sharing their grief and loss after losing Annabelle. 

[cmr2014]

7 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I agree with you.  I think losing Annabelle(sp?) has hopefully had them reevaluating their family, and they will step off the baby-train for awhile.  Joy and Austin seem to love each other and have a strong bond, and both definitely love Gideon.  Hopefully they will relax and enjoy their family of 3, and delay expanding.

I hope you're right, but I don't think it will cross their minds to step off the baby train for a while to heal both mentally and physically. It's not in their rule book to step back and take stock of life, and I think that if the idea did ever cross their minds, they would push it down as far and as deep as they could.

[lucy711]

4 hours ago, Nysha said:

According to E!News, the baby was stillborn at 20 weeks. They posted pictures of them holding a dressed teeny-tiny baby, so I'm sure they consider her a stillborn baby as opposed to a miscarriage.

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if she was receiving any prenatal care?  I wonder if the baby had passed a few weeks earlier but she didn't find out until 20 weeks because that's when she went for a scan.

Obviously this could happen to anyone regardless of whether they are receiving care or not, so maybe it doesn't really matter!

[Lunera]

21 minutes ago, lucy711 said:

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if she was receiving any prenatal care?  I wonder if the baby had passed a few weeks earlier but she didn't find out until 20 weeks because that's when she went for a scan.

Obviously this could happen to anyone regardless of whether they are receiving care or not, so maybe it doesn't really matter!

Joy's 1st ultrasound was from a boutique. At the time she posted it an ultrasound tech said that she should go see a doctor asap because it didn't look right. I think she might have gone back to the boutique for her 2nd one. She never mentioned anything about prenatal care 

[Minivanessa]

4 hours ago, PikaScrewChu said:

I don't think the Duggar women were built for birthin' and pregnancy like their mother was. Granted Michelle did manage to have competent medical care throughout her pregnancies and deliveries. Who is to say if she hadn't had the care she did?

I think JB and Meech set the expectations too high and made it all look just that easy.

^^I agree. Both that the Duggar daughters (vs the DILs) don't seem to be able to just pop out babies and keep on rolling like their mom, *and* that with the notable exception of Jinger they have had little to no actual medical prenatal care.

The only Duggar daughter who's never experienced complications (or tragedy) in childbirth is - Jinger. Who went to a San Antonio hospital for the birth.  (Here's a Captain Obvious recap, although I'm sure all regular readers know all this. Two of Jessa's three homebirths were accompanied by uncontrolled bleeding that got Jessa an ambulance ride to the hospital. Both Jill's attempted home deliveries ended in unplanned C-sections and though we didn't get as many details about Sam as about Izzy, it was clear that serious stuff went down both times. And poor Joy had Giddy by C-section and her second pregnancy ended tragically in a stillbirth.)

Will these three Duggar daughters EVER figure this out, and decide they would benefit from actual prenatal medical care from someone other than Jilly Muffin or a lay midwife? The kind of medical care their mother apparently had for all her pregnancies? (I know Meech had a few homebirths but I can't believe she never saw a doctor for any of those pregnancies.)

I see Jeremy as a husband who ain't fooling around for a hot minute with the lives of his wife and babies, and thus Jinger had prenatal care and a hospital delivery.

Will Derick get his head out of his *ss if Jill ever gets pregnant again, and insist she get real medical care?

Will Bin look at the history and also insist on Jessa's delivering in the hospital next time?

I wonder if Austin will insist, after the loss of their baby, that Joy get real medical care for her next pregnancy. He doesn't strike me as a wimp, and I'm sure the stillbirth hit him hard. 

[PikaScrewChu]

Michelle had two home births, Jinger and Joe.

I do think it comes down to a question of money. TLC doesn't pay for the medical bills so they are doing the equivalent of "buy used and save the difference" when it comes to childbirth.

[Jynnan tonnix]

1 hour ago, BitterApple said:

I think Joy will get pregnant again very quickly. If they're having sex regularly and not using birth control, it's inevitable.

It's probably a likely scenario, but my gut tells me that they will hold off even if it's mostly subconsciously...I'm sure they have at least a working knowledge of when the most fertile times of her cycle would be, and now that they have firsthand knowledge of the pain which comes from the sort of loss they went through, they may just instinctively shy away from another pregnancy right away. 

While I recognize that even an early miscarriage such as Lauren had can be every bit as painful under some circumstances, much of that depends on how much effort went into the conception. A first-time miscarriage after a conception within the first two or three months of marriage is totally different - even if the pregnancy was a planned and joyous thing - than a miscarriage a long period of trying, or after multiple lost pregnancies. And losing a baby at 20 months, fully-formed yet non-viable, has simply got to be rougher, no matter what, than losing a barely formed jellybean of a fetus which might still easily be overlooked as a heavy period unless one was making a habitual use of pee-sticks. Point being that as much as she might think that she and Joy suffered an equal loss, Lauren has no clue. Which is why, I think, she could move right on to another try where Joy might need more time. 

As I say, it might be more subconscious than otherwise, but I just feel that Joy and Austin will be giving it a little bit more time.

[Scarlett45]

I think we forget that we met Michelle near the end of her reproductive life, and we are seeing the Duggar Daughters at the beginning. 

If you looked at Michelle’s first 3 pregnancies the odds wouldn’t look great either- Josh, a first trimester miscarriage and then a required c-section due to pre-eclampsia with Jana/JD....who would’ve predicted she would have 16 more pregnancies and children before she died?!! (Another set of twins and the Jubilee miscarriage make the number of pregnancies and living children equal). 

Obviously JB and Michelle are statistical outliers in their fertility AND their personal philosophies that inspired them to push their reproductive capabilities to the limit. 

I don’t think we have enough data on the daughters to fully predict their future as far as the baby game goes. But if they stay along the quiverfill line I definitely think double digits are possible (if not Michelle and Kelly Bates numbers). 

[QuinnInND]

Austin seems to really love Giddy. And Joy too. 

[WalrusGirl]

5 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

I think we forget that we met Michelle near the end of her reproductive life, and we are seeing the Duggar Daughters at the beginning. 

If you looked at Michelle’s first 3 pregnancies the odds wouldn’t look great either- Josh, a first trimester miscarriage and then a required c-section due to pre-eclampsia with Jana/JD....who would’ve predicted she would have 16 more pregnancies and children before she died?!! (Another set of twins and the Jubilee miscarriage make the number of pregnancies and living children equal). 

Obviously JB and Michelle are statistical outliers in their fertility AND their personal philosophies that inspired them to push their reproductive capabilities to the limit. 

I don’t think we have enough data on the daughters to fully predict their future as far as the baby game goes. But if they stay along the quiverfill line I definitely think double digits are possible (if not Michelle and Kelly Bates numbers). 

Very good point. And had Jessa delivered in the hospital, her pregnancies and deliveries could look pretty picture-perfect - she’d have already had an IV for quick administration of pitocin right away, which did resolve her bleeding both times - just after a delay in obtaining it. The public might know about it for desired drama/promo footage in her TLC delivery specials, but we could also easily know nothing about it because it would have likely been a post-delivery blip, as each event was able to be controlled and resolved with meds.

Joy’s first and one or both of Jill’s may have been similar with proper prenatal monitoring OR even just showing up at the hospital when in labor - breech positioning likely would have been quickly determined, and c-sections either planned or non-urgently-initiated when they presented at the hospital, avoiding the prolonged labors and those (possible) infant complications for Jill.

Edited August 15, 2019 by WalrusGirl
ETA paragraph re Joy and Jill

[Minivanessa]

8 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

I think we forget that we met Michelle near the end of her reproductive life, and we are seeing the Duggar Daughters at the beginning. 

If you looked at Michelle’s first 3 pregnancies the odds wouldn’t look great either- Josh, a first trimester miscarriage and then a required c-section due to pre-eclampsia with Jana/JD... . . .

I don’t think we have enough data on the daughters to fully predict their future as far as the baby game goes. But if they stay along the quiverfill line I definitely think double digits are possible (if not Michelle and Kelly Bates numbers). 

Oh, I agree that we can't predict how many kids Jill, Jessa, and Joy are going to have. But what if Michelle hadn't had prenatal care from, you know, a real MD, during her pregnancies? Would pre-eclampsia have been diagnosed at all? Would she have had as many live births as she did? Of course, we don't know. But she did have medical care, AFAIK. 

2 hours ago, WalrusGirl said:

Very good point. And had Jessa delivered in the hospital, her pregnancies and deliveries could look pretty picture-perfect - she’d have already had an IV for quick administration of pitocin right away, which did resolve her bleeding both times - just after a delay in obtaining it. The public might know about it for desired drama/promo footage in her TLC delivery specials, but we could also easily know nothing about it because it would have likely been a post-delivery blip, as each event was able to be controlled and resolved with meds.

Joy’s first and one or both of Jill’s may have been similar with proper prenatal monitoring OR even just showing up at the hospital when in labor - breech positioning likely would have been quickly determined, and c-sections either planned or non-urgently-initiated when they presented at the hospital, avoiding the prolonged labors and those (possible) infant complications for Jill.

Well, this is kind of getting around to my point. With proper medical attention, Jessa wouldn't have hemorrhaged after two of her three deliveries, Jill would most likely have avoided complications even if she required C-sections, and Joy's first pregnancy would have been better managed all along. DIdn't she eat tons of junk food and gain a lot of weight? BTW, I am NOT saying she lost the second baby because of lack of prenatal care. Those things happen even with prenatal care and I am NOT playing a blame game over that tragedy. I AM wondering what the future holds if these women continue to handle pregnancy and delivery as they have been to date.

So, the argument here seems to be that these Duggar daughters are just as fertile as their mom, and it's just the lack of medical care that has been the difference.

I can't argue against that. BUT what if they don't get proper medical prenatal care going forward? Are all three of them going to continue to push out babies, these early pregnancy and delivery issues having been just hiccups on their way to double digit motherhood? Without any proper prenatal medical care and continued home deliveries? Lots of happy VBACs for Jill and Joy, and maybe some more immediate post-delivery ambulance rides to the hospital as needed for Jessa?

I'm no expert, but it seems to me that these three Daughters of Meechelle have so far presented a very bad case for no-doctor pregnancies and lay midwife home births. They've all made it to the hospital in time when things went bad, and maybe that's the plan going forward. It has worked out so far, and if it is, let's hope it continues to do so. 

Edited August 15, 2019 by Jeeves
clarity

[Churchhoney]

9 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

They've all made it to the hospital in time when things went bad, and maybe that's the plan going forward. It has worked out so far, and if it is, let's hope it continues to do so. 

Yes, let's definitely hope. 

It is, however, as we know, a stupid, wasteful, needlessly risky and, as far as I can tell, completely pointless "plan"! 

That's what really baffles me. Why why why? Are they mainly trying to save money? Demonstrate that they're....what? It's nuts. 

Is there some contingent of people out there online who are fervently admiring them for it? 

What???

Edited August 15, 2019 by Churchhoney

[libgirl2]

11 hours ago, QuinnInND said:

Austin seems to really love Giddy. And Joy too. 

That last picture is cute. A dad kissing his son. 

[cmr2014]

On 8/14/2019 at 11:09 PM, QuinnInND said:

Austin seems to really love Giddy. And Joy too. 

I think that these are sweet pictures. The bar is insanely low, though, when a father "seems to really love" his son is worth notice.

Joy and Austin are the only gen2 Duggars who are on record as approving of the Pearl "child training" methods. I hope that they have a happy family and that Joy and Austin are good parents, but I'm doubtful that Gideon will grow up in a loving and supportive home.

[Sew Sumi]

Jill said that Joy was the "most conservative" of the older girls. This was before Austin arrived in the picture. From what I know about Joy's testimony, she was a Doubting Thomas in her teens, but *something* that she didn't reveal scared her straight. 😕

[madpsych78]

12 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

Jill said that Joy was the "most conservative" of the older girls. This was before Austin arrived in the picture. From what I know about Joy's testimony, she was a Doubting Thomas in her teens, but *something* that she didn't reveal scared her straight. 😕

Where did Jill say that?

[Sew Sumi]

2 hours ago, madpsych78 said:

Where did Jill say that?

Social media, around the time Joy was courting/engaged. 

[jcbrown]

I was thinking about the Duggar women and their husbands as I was working on dinner just now (I know, I know, a life is needed). I think in many ways Joy has a better shot at building a good relationship, even though she got married so young. Ben, Dreck, and JereME all seem to really want to be someone other than who they are. They also each seem to have chosen a Duggar for a wife for a purpose (idolizing the image on TV, prayer partner and wanting to ride coattails, latching onto "fame," respectively) other than just wanting to spend their lives together. They aspire to a particular image other than being the people they are. Austin, from what we've seen, is the most authentic in being who he is and seems content to be exactly that. Not someone I would want, sure, but for Joy, he seems a good match. It seems to me much easier to build a good relationship with someone who knows who they are and chooses you for who you are rather than to build a relationship with someone who wants to be someone else and to use you as a means to get there.

[Zella]

11 minutes ago, jcbrown said:

I was thinking about the Duggar women and their husbands as I was working on dinner just now (I know, I know, a life is needed). I think in many ways Joy has a better shot at building a good relationship, even though she got married so young. Ben, Dreck, and JereME all seem to really want to be someone other than who they are. They also each seem to have chosen a Duggar for a wife for a purpose (idolizing the image on TV, prayer partner and wanting to ride coattails, latching onto "fame," respectively) other than just wanting to spend their lives together. They aspire to a particular image other than being the people they are. Austin, from what we've seen, is the most authentic in being who he is and seems content to be exactly that. Not someone I would want, sure, but for Joy, he seems a good match. It seems to me much easier to build a good relationship with someone who knows who they are and chooses you for who you are rather than to build a relationship with someone who wants to be someone else and to use you as a means to get there.

Yes, I don't get a fame whore vibe from Austin at all. I agree with the speculation previously that of all the Duggar marriages, this is the one most likely to have happened even if there'd never have been a TV show. 

Edited August 18, 2019 by Zella

[Tasya]

Plus Kendra and Joe. They seem deep down suited. 

[Zella]

18 minutes ago, Tasya said:

Plus Kendra and Joe. They seem deep down suited. 

Yes, I actually always forget about them, but I could also see that happening on its own. I also don't get a fame whore vibe from her or Joe. 

Edited August 18, 2019 by Zella

[ginger90]

[madpsych78]

16 hours ago, Zella said:

Yes, I actually always forget about them, but I could also see that happening on its own. I also don't get a fame whore vibe from her or Joe. 

I don't get a fame whore vibe from any of the in-laws from the families that grew up fundie, except for Lauren (and Anna now, but she's been part of the Duggar family the longest of all the in-laws. She wasn't a fame whore in the beginning). 

[floridamom]

Is that Joy? I didn't recognize her at first. Looks completely different in that photo.

[jcbrown]

27 minutes ago, floridamom said:

Is that Joy? I didn't recognize her at first. Looks completely different in that photo.

Same here. I thought it was someone else and had to look twice to recognize Joy.

[FizzyPuff]

19 minutes ago, jcbrown said:

Same here. I thought it was someone else and had to look twice to recognize Joy.

I though that was Jessa for a sec then I thought since when does Jessa hold any babies other than her own. 

[ozziemom]

2 hours ago, floridamom said:

Is that Joy? I didn't recognize her at first. Looks completely different in that photo.

I thought it was Hannie!

[Mojitogirl]

I think she went the opposite of Jinger and tried to dye her hair black. I thought she had a scarf or hoodie on but it’s chunks of color. 

[McManda]

Wait, is that not Hannie?

[Sew Sumi]

No, if you go to the Instastory, you'll immediately know it's Joy just by the mushmouth. It's actually a cute video, and Giddyup is allowed to run off the blanket. 

[xwordfanatik]

So Joy dyed her hair dark?  Some of the Sister Wives young women are doing the same thing, and I don't understand it at all.  It flatters none of them.