Jill, Derick & the Kids: Moving On!!

[Growsonwalls]

16 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Jill is claiming she left the faith? It seems she left behind some of the Gothard BS, but not their Fundy beliefs. Does she know the difference?

I think in the extremely rigid beliefs of the Duggars she has left the faith because she no longer follows many of their lifestyle requirements. 

[Absolom]

She has left both Gothard and the IFB.  To JB that probably looks like apostasy.

[GeeGolly]

I'm confused, below is a link with the description of the belief's of Derick's and Jill's church. Short of clothing and quiverfull, it sounds very much the same as what JB & M have been touting all these years, right down to a wife submitting to her husband and children obeying their parents.

https://www.crosschurch.com/beliefs/

Came back to ask, has Jinger and Josiah left the religion too? Did JD marry a woman not of the same beliefs? How is what Jill is doing any different than them?

Edited December 18, 2020 by GeeGolly

[GeeGolly]

Double post

Edited December 18, 2020 by GeeGolly

[Absolom]

1 hour ago, GeeGolly said:

I'm confused, below is a link with the description of the belief's of Derick's and Jill's church. Short of clothing and quiverfull, it sounds very much the same as what JB & M have been touting all these years, right down to a wife submitting to her husband and children obeying their parents.

It's the things like birth control, drinking alcohol, dancing, and how seriously wifely submission is taken.  There's also no KJV edict with SBC among other bits of doctrine.  A lot of SBC members know wifely submission may on the church website and it gets taught now and again, but they don't interpret submission the same way.  It isn't the all powerful whatever the husband says.  My next door neighbors are SBC and yet they engage in spirited discussions about things and while he has strong opinions about what kind of diet he wants, it's a well then you go to the store, buy it, and prepare it, because I have my own dietary needs and I'll take care of those.  She wears what she wants to wear and it isn't dresses and skirts.  She wears her hair to suit herself also.  Basically their life is much like Jill and Derick with public school attending offspring who went to college and most of them work.  They wouldn't even consider blanket training.  Gothard and the Pearls are regarded with horror.  They make their own voting decisions independent of the church and each other.  They still think for themselves most of the time and their current pastor encourages it.  Counseling isn't forbidden or must be from the church.  Psychiatric problems aren't immediately seen as sign of sin.

Edited December 18, 2020 by Absolom

[Growsonwalls]

2 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I'm confused, below is a link with the description of the belief's of Derick's and Jill's church. Short of clothing and quiverfull, it sounds very much the same as what JB & M have been touting all these years, right down to a wife submitting to her husband and children obeying their parents.

https://www.crosschurch.com/beliefs/

Came back to ask, has Jinger and Josiah left the religion too? Did JD marry a woman not of the same beliefs? How is what Jill is doing any different than them?

I think the main difference is SBC is a big church with a more diverse congregation. So actual practice of their beliefs will be more diverse as well. 

[ouinason]

as someone who is SBC I think the submission of the wife is seen much to strictly by both the crazy pants and some outside observers.  We argue with our husbands, they defer to our judgement and we can make decisions as partners.  None of this crazy eyes Michelle Duggar stuff.  Headship isn't the be all end all of the relationship.

Some women feel that way, and some marriages work that way, but that's across a large swath of people and not confined to a specific denomination.

There are congregations that are more strict than others, but that is also not confined to SBC.  

[Minivanessa]

I have many relatives who are SBC, and they live very mainstream American lives. We're a big diverse country, and most of my kin live in the same general region of the country as the Duggars. It's a strong family and they tend to be regular churchgoers almost without exception. IMO the degree of devotion to the theology varies among individuals. And when I say "mainstream," I mean mainstream for the American midwest (with a strong dash of Southern roots). Generally conservative. But none of that fundie separatist quiverfull stuff! The norm for my generation and the later ones is at least one college degree (for the men and women, and several advanced degrees), active careers both as entrepeneurs and employees of non-family businesses, including several public school teachers, and a family counselor with a PhD. And, a CPA. (BTW, those jobs I mentioned? All done by women, just saying.)

The women - besides being educated and holding real jobs - tend to dress fashionably, wear makeup, and don't have Butt-Length Hair to Honor Jesus, lol. There have been divorces, some kids born to unmarried moms and dads (and thoroughly loved and adored by their grandparents, great-grandparents, and everyone else), troubles of various kinds met with courage and love. Not limited to but including drug addiction. IOW, normal life lived by good people. Their church may officially preach some pretty hardcore stuff but they don't beat anybody over the head with it. Of course, as @ouinason said, there are always the crazy pants and extremists. But in my experience, just being SBC doesn't automatically = aligned with the Duggars and their ilk. 

Edited December 18, 2020 by Jeeves
Props to the women and dads

[Zella]

I think the overall difference is one that everyone has already touched on--isolating from the world versus being part of the world. Gothardism at its core, like all cults, demands that you withdraw and limit your exposure to outside influences. And I've seen that in non-Gothard fundies. Public schools are completely off-limits and even job opportunities are restricted, based on who you could come into contact with. There are certainly some SBC people who homeschool, but it is not something that the entire denomination demands. 

I spent time in both Pentecostal churches and Southern Baptist churches as a child (without being a member of either), and the services are conducted very differently. And even just general appearances. Congregants at SBC services wore what seemed like pretty normal clothing to me. Most of the women I remember were in dresses, but they were fashionable, normal dresses. I also saw makeup and jewelry and styled hair. Most of the kids went to public school. At the Pentecostal churches, the women all had floor-length skirts (usually denim) and unstyled waist-length hair, and most families homeschooled. 

Edited December 18, 2020 by Zella

[QuinnInND]

https://www.instagram.com/p/CI8abuzAVwc/?igshid=1pmn5g7ec8cdc

 

They all look happy and having fun! 

[Madtown]

Jill had this in her insta-story.
I'm so thrilled for Izzy and the face he thought of giving his teacher a roll of TP on his own is beyond adorable. Once again, I see how happy he is and loves school and think of Spurge probably being bored out of his mind..

 

[BigBingerBro]

I'm very happy to see that Israel's schooling is going so well.  

[libgirl2]

Those kids do look happy. And that gift and the cards is so sweet. I noticed their smiles meet their eyes. 

[GeeGolly]

Even with all the nuances, it sounds as though conservative Southern Baptists line right up with JB & M minus Gothard. It seems to me, Jeremy and Jinger, Josiah and Lauren, and JD and Abbie are living lives similar to Jill and Derick. I don't think they think they left their parents (inlaws) beliefs. So I'm wondering why Jill thinks that she has.

Is it a way for her to try and make sense of the estrangement? Is it to gain more outside support and SM clicks? Derick should be well aware of the differences and know Gothard's teachings in and of themselves aren't a religion. 

Jill is likely aware of the Bate's sisters. None of them have declared leaving their family's beliefs. One of the most religious sisters has claimed she doesn't follow Gothard's teachings, but is fully entrenched in Christianity and I think she attends her father's church.

It just seems a little off and very odd to me.

[MaryAnneSpier]

I think that Gothardism is about following every single rule/belief down to a tee and being fully in an insulated world of others who do the same. SBC is more "liberal" in that some things are less black-and-white, or that while there are official stances the church takes, they also understand the reality that not everything will be followed precisely. While both of these denominations follow the same book with the same overall beliefs, their application and interpretation of it varies just enough to seem different. Jill has seemed to be a rule-follower by nature and probably liked the "structure" that Gothardism gave: women and men have their appropriate roles, friendship is within a small group of same-minded people, strict rules on how to dress and wear your hair, etc were the only things she could count on being consistent. For her to leave that and go to a church with a bit more flexibility and diversity of congregants along with wearing pants, sending her son to public school, leaving the show she grew up on, and the myriad of other life changes she's gone through, it probably does feel to her like she's leaving the upbringing behind altogether. 

[louannems]

21 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I'm confused, below is a link with the description of the belief's of Derick's and Jill's church. Short of clothing and quiverfull, it sounds very much the same as what JB & M have been touting all these years, right down to a wife submitting to her husband and children obeying their parents.

https://www.crosschurch.com/beliefs/

Came back to ask, has Jinger and Josiah left the religion too? Did JD marry a woman not of the same beliefs? How is what Jill is doing any different than them?

Abbie's family is very much into Gotherdism.  I remember shortly before their marriage, someone posted their family's picture taken right from the Big Sandy website.

[GeeGolly]

5 minutes ago, louannems said:

Abbie's family is very much into Gotherdism.  I remember shortly before their marriage, someone posted their family's picture taken right from the Big Sandy website.

But she also wears pants, she's an LPN and her sister had dancing at her wedding. Its all very confusing to me.

[rue721]

I think you're underestimating how central worship of Jim Bob is to the Duggars' religion

[Zella]

I wonder if the choice of podcast is more reflective of the terms the Duggars are privately using about Jill's estrangement than it is about the actual reality of the situation.

I'm not sure if this makes sense, but these are the things I think about randomly on Friday evenings now. LOL 

As I mentioned earlier (and a lot of us seem to agree), I think the real root cause of the estrangement is the fact that Derick's complaints were publicized. I do think the resulting feud has probably pushed Jill to being more open toward changes that I am sure her parents are not at all happy with (namely public school for Izzy). However, I don't think those changes are what caused the estrangement.

That podcast seems geared toward Christians whose children have actually left the faith entirely. Not those who have become less fundamentalist but still remain believers, which I think is a fair categorization of Jill's beliefs. 

I don't think it is outside the realm of possibility, though, that the Duggars within the family discuss the feud in those terms, partially as a guilt trip for Jill and also partially as a way to avoid making it sound like it is all about money and cast the blame away from them. "My daughter's become a heretic apostate!" is going to play a lot more sympathetically in their circles than "We may or may not have shit our daughter out of money."

So, I can see Jill internalizing this idea about herself--either from direct conversations she's had with her parents or what her siblings tell her that her parents are saying--and since she is in self-help mode already, seeking out resources on it. 

To me, it initially seemed sort of goofy for her to be the one listening to the podcast since it's not geared toward her and ostensibly would be more geared toward her parents, but it is interesting to me that the full summary of the specific podcast is "If it looks like your son or daughter has abandoned their childhood faith, don't lose hope. Dave & Ann Wilson, and Bob Lepine say, you can remain a steady influence in their lives, but it will require some intentional adjustments in areas of disagreement like faith or politics." So, maybe her takeaways from it have been more about boundaries and how parents can respectfully negotiate these differences of opinion. And if that is the case, the podcast might just reinforce for her that her family is not really capable of disagreeing respectfully. 

Maybe it was even a passive-aggressive suggestion to her parents. Like the time I bought a parenting book as a Christmas gift for a stepparent I loathed. The message was received in that case, though not very graciously. 😇 I doubt the Duggars are very interested in any of these resources, though, and I'm not sure it would really help their situation since the root of the problem isn't really about religion. It's about parental control. 

 

Edited December 19, 2020 by Zella

[ozziemom]

I’m sure Boob knows how to make Jill and Dreck seem in the wrong to his “people” Much better to ignore the money part and turn it into a question of faith. Boob is all about image and it must be shocking to him that Jill, who was clearly his favorite, would be straying from the Duggar ways.

[charmed1]

8 hours ago, Madtown said:

Jill had this in her insta-story.
I'm so thrilled for Izzy and the face he thought of giving his teacher a roll of TP on his own is beyond adorable. Once again, I see how happy he is and loves school and think of Spurge probably being bored out of his mind..

 

Ha! Sam will probably have that same teacher in a couple of years. It’s never too early to start buttering her up. Very smart, Sam.

[marypat57]

33 minutes ago, charmed1 said:

Ha! Sam will probably have that same teacher in a couple of years. It’s never too early to start buttering her up. Very smart, Sam.

I taught kindergarten in the same school for 18 years. Over those years,  I taught 5 children from the same family—all very sweet little girls.  Mostly over those years, I taught two or three children from the same family.  I do confess, however that on occasion I asked the school secretary not to place a child from a certain family in my class.  I also taught a few children of former students in my class.  That was fun.  I remember one first day of school , a young father came to my classroom door to pick up his son.  He looked at me and said “I knew it was you! I knew it was you! “. He told his son that I was his teacher when he was in kindergarten.  During the year, when I would read from the primary Little House on the Prairie series, I would tell the little one that when his daddy was in my room, that these were some of his favorite stories.  
I do miss the kids, but I’m glad I was able to retire...

[GeeGolly]

I agree @Zella, using religion is how Jill is trying to make sense of the estrangement. It might help a little, but its ignoring some key components of what went down between JB & Derick and Jill as well. The timing of it makes me think Jill is struggling a great deal. Because of the 3 back to back gatherings her family has had.

I wonder if Jill realizes that Derick and JB need to mend their relationship before anything will change for real. His public, passive-aggressive rantings probably hurt and offended some of her siblings, in addition to JB. Even if what Derick said was true, nobody likes their dad to be called out or insulted privately, never mind all over SM.

IMO, whatever went down between Derick and JB, Derick owes JB an apology. Even if JB was screwing them over, how Derick handled it did was wrong. This disagreement has nothing directly to do with the way Jill was raised and that's not Derick's fight to be had anyway. Derick used the negative public opinion of Jill's family to gain SM support in his fight with JB. I mean the dude threatened to write a tell all.

If Jill is struggling, then Derick needs to swallow his pride and sit down with JB, and JB needs to let it happen. From the outside looking in, as time moves on, this estrangement seems as if its becoming more difficult for Jill. Unless Jill wants to cut ties with her family, there's no ripping off the band aid to get this done. It'll take time and effort, and depending on Jill's goal, she can't fix everything doing the work by herself, on only herself, although that will help. The podcast she listened to squarely puts all the blame on her parents, but there's much more going on.

With all that said, maybe Jill is fine and my speculation is way off. But if I'm even close to right, I feel a little bad for Jill.

[ginger90]

[Absolom]

12 hours ago, Zella said:

So, maybe her takeaways from it have been more about boundaries and how parents can respectfully negotiate these differences of opinion. And if that is the case, the podcast might just reinforce for her that her family is not really capable of disagreeing respectfully. 

Jill has done a lot of reading and studying about boundaries so I think that may be a fair interpretation of her interest.  How should or could my parents be navigating this instead of pushing me/my family away.

[Zella]

6 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I agree @Zella, using religion is how Jill is trying to make sense of the estrangement. It might help a little, but its ignoring some key components of what went down between JB & Derick and Jill as well. The timing of it makes me think Jill is struggling a great deal. Because of the 3 back to back gatherings her family has had.

I wonder if Jill realizes that Derick and JB need to mend their relationship before anything will change for real. His public, passive-aggressive rantings probably hurt and offended some of her siblings, in addition to JB. Even if what Derick said was true, nobody likes their dad to be called out or insulted privately, never mind all over SM.

IMO, whatever went down between Derick and JB, Derick owes JB an apology. Even if JB was screwing them over, how Derick handled it did was wrong. This disagreement has nothing directly to do with the way Jill was raised and that's not Derick's fight to be had anyway. Derick used the negative public opinion of Jill's family to gain SM support in his fight with JB. I mean the dude threatened to write a tell all.

If Jill is struggling, then Derick needs to swallow his pride and sit down with JB, and JB needs to let it happen. From the outside looking in, as time moves on, this estrangement seems as if its becoming more difficult for Jill. Unless Jill wants to cut ties with her family, there's no ripping off the band aid to get this done. It'll take time and effort, and depending on Jill's goal, she can't fix everything doing the work by herself, on only herself, although that will help. The podcast she listened to squarely puts all the blame on her parents, but there's much more going on.

With all that said, maybe Jill is fine and my speculation is way off. But if I'm even close to right, I feel a little bad for Jill.

I have sort of mixed feelings about the whole thing, largely informed by my own family estrangements. I do think there's blame to be had on both sides by both JB and Derick. My assumption is that JB is an absolute prick to deal with but that Derick went absolutely nuclear. 

And I do agree with @Absolom that Jill seems to have been trying to learn about family boundaries, but I really don't think the Duggars or, specifically, JB are willing to have normal boundaries.

That's at the heart of my own family estrangements--if someone doesn't respect boundaries, then I'd rather just not deal with them and their shit. It hurts and can be painful, but they have to pull some of their own weight in mending fences. It can't all be on one party. 

It does seem that Jill is willing to put some effort into exploring these issues, but I don't think either Derick or Jim Bob are willing to do so. And I think JB's unwillingness to do so is probably more of a barrier to any sort of reconciliation than anything. It doesn't seem as if Derick has an issue with her still having a relationship with her family--I wouldn't doubt if he is a little bitch about it in private--but still he doesn't seem to block that. To be honest, I've seen that dynamic in my own family and I think an in-law who doesn't block you from having a relationship with your family but who also absents themselves from the bullshit isn't necessarily a bad thing. That's been my own dad's MO in both of his marriages, and I can't say I blame him. 

So, I really think the onus for some steps forward are more on Jim Bob and Michelle, specifically Jim Bob. I don't think he's capable of apologizing or admitting he's wrong, and if he is trying to guilt-trip Jill by going around telling everyone that she is some sort of heretic who abandoned her faith, that's his fault, not Derick's. 

I'm sure Jill is hurt by being excluded, but I don't know that she's really suffering from it. She seems to be happier than she was in a long time, and her kids are too. I know one can't go off social media to judge happiness, but I don't get the impression Jill is miserable with her current life, and she herself seems to have a fairly reasonable perspective on the estrangement, per the interviews she's done. 

[Absolom]

24 minutes ago, Zella said:

but I really don't think the Duggars or, specifically, JB are willing to have normal boundaries.

I don't think they can or will, JB in particular.  Going nuclear may have been the only option that would work.  Jill may have even been in favor of what Derick did and how he went about it.  Sometimes all people understand is being "hit upside the head."  JB seems particularly clueless and bent on having his own way.

27 minutes ago, Zella said:

I think JB's unwillingness to do so is probably more of a barrier to any sort of reconciliation than anything. It doesn't seem as if Derick has an issue with her still having a relationship with her family

I agree and even if Derick apologized JB would see it as both a sign of weakness and he (JB) was right in how he was handling things.  It wouldn't help Jill with her family.  JB would simply double down.

I think based on her SM that Jill sees the family she wants to see on her own terms in her house, their individual houses, or public places.  She and Derick have chosen not to film and that alone can account for some of her absences.  Plus she has a husband and a kid in school.  Her schedule isn't such that she can drop everything for Duggar time gatherings.  It could be her choice to skip things like the massive ugly sweater contest.  I know it would be mine to avoid such side shows.

[GeeGolly]

2 minutes ago, Zella said:

I have sort of mixed feelings about the whole thing, largely informed by my own family estrangements. I do think there's blame to be had on both sides by both JB and Derick. My assumption is that JB is an absolute prick to deal with but that Derick went absolutely nuclear. 

And I do agree with @Absolom that Jill seems to have been trying to learn about family boundaries, but I really don't think the Duggars or, specifically, JB are willing to have normal boundaries.

That's at the heart of my own family estrangements--if someone doesn't respect boundaries, then I'd rather just not deal with them and their shit. It hurts and can be painful, but they have to pull some of their own weight in mending fences. It can't all be on one party. 

It does seem that Jill is willing to put some effort into exploring these issues, but I don't think either Derick or Jim Bob are willing to do so. And I think JB's unwillingness to do so is probably more of a barrier to any sort of reconciliation than anything. It doesn't seem as if Derick has an issue with her still having a relationship with her family--I wouldn't doubt if he is a little bitch about it in private--but still he doesn't seem to block that. To be honest, I've seen that dynamic in my own family and I think an in-law who doesn't block you from having a relationship with your family but who also absents themselves from the bullshit isn't necessarily a bad thing. That's been my own dad's MO in both of his marriages, and I can't say I blame him. 

So, I really think the onus for some steps forward are more on Jim Bob and Michelle, specifically Jim Bob. I don't think he's capable of apologizing or admitting he's wrong, and if he is trying to guilt-trip Jill by going around telling everyone that she is some sort of heretic who abandoned her faith, that's his fault, not Derick's. 

I'm sure Jill is hurt by being excluded, but I don't know that she's really suffering from it. She seems to be happier than she was in a long time, and her kids are too. I know one can't go off social media to judge happiness, but I don't get the impression Jill is miserable with her current life, and she herself seems to have a fairly reasonable perspective on the estrangement, per the interviews she's done. 

Some good points.

I don't see that Jill is any happier. To me her SM posts have remained fairly consistent. I feel like her posts were looked at with a different and more hopeful lens, so that it what was seen, but nothing really changed.

What is it that JB & M are apologizing to Derick for? For not paying his child's medical bills? It seems to me they have handled the TLC money in whatever method they've used and Derick had no problem with it for 2 years or so. JB & M may be shitty parents, but they're not Derick's parents. They may have messed up Jill's childhood, but they didn't mess up Derick's.

If JB handled the disagreement over money like a dick, then he should apologize for that. But we know Derick handled it like a dick too.

Derick has said they are welcome at the TTH as long as they call first. A very clear, slightly passive-aggressive, boundary. One that Jill and Derick don't seem to like. Jill and Derick sued JB. I think even the most gracious parent might have a problem with that.

I think mixing in Jill's childhood with the fallout confuses things. I think its great that Jill is teasing out some of her parents shitty parenting skills, but I get the feeling that Derick uses that to make everything he has done as right.

But again, I don't see anything on SM that gives the impression that Jill's demeanor has changed.

[Zella]

12 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I don't see that Jill is any happier.

To me, she seems less dead-eyed. And the change in Izzy is like night and day. 

12 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

What is it that JB & M are apologizing to Derick for? For not paying his child's medical bills? It seems to me they have handled the TLC money in whatever method they've used and Derick had no problem with it for 2 years or so. JB & M may be shitty parents, but they're not Derick's parents. They may have messed up Jill's childhood, but they didn't mess up Derick's.

I don't think they need to apologize to Derick. I do think they need to apologize to Jill. That's what I was referencing--Jill's estrangement with her parents. Not whatever went down between Derick and JB. I see Derick's issues with his in-laws as separate, and I am significantly less sympathetic to him in general because I think he's a little shit weasel. 

12 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I think mixing in Jill's childhood with the fallout confuses things. I think its great that Jill is teasing out some of her parents shitty parenting skills, but I get the feeling that Derick uses that to make everything he has done as right.

Yes, I do think that confuses things, though to be fair if JB is pulling the "you're a heretic" card, he doesn't have the moral high ground either. 

Edited December 19, 2020 by Zella

[Minivanessa]

5 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Jill and Derick sued JB.

Is that known for sure? All I remember hearing is that Derick said they hired a lawyer. I'm pretty sure that if a lawsuit had been filed, it would have hit the media by now. Lawsuits are matters of public record. 

Yes, in personal relationship terms, hiring a lawyer to help you convince another person to pay money you think you're owed, is certainly a big step. But a lawsuit is yet another big step, and I'm not aware that was required before JB paid up. I have no pride of authorship here, and if I missed the news that a suit was filed, I'm all over it! I'd go find what I could on the court website and read the juicy deets!

ETA: @Zella posted while I was writing. I agree - Jill's facial expressions these days are so much more relaxed than they used to be. She seems to have genuine smiles, not a Michelle Duggar Speshul Be Sweet For The Cameras™ rictus that doesn't make it to the eyes.

Edited December 19, 2020 by Jeeves

[Zella]

10 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

One that Jill and Derick don't seem to like. Jill and Derick sued JB. I think even the most gracious parent might have a problem with that.

I would have to know more about the circumstances to judge it. I agree that most people would have a problem with it, but I tend to think there was probably some justification for the lawsuit. I personally don't think suing your parents is inherently wrong if they deserve it, but I also haven't spoken to my own mother in 21 years, so I admittedly don't have the most normal perception of parental relationships. 

Edited December 19, 2020 by Zella

[MargeGunderson]

I think Derick and Jill got a lawyer involved and JB negotiated/settled with the, so there wouldn’t be a lawsuit filed or any type of public record. That suggests to me that he knows he won’t come off great if the details of how/to whom payments were made. I suspect TLC wouldn’t want the details about the contracts and payments known either, so that their other “stars” can’t use the information as leverage.

Edited December 19, 2020 by MargeGunderson
I was not educated at the SOTDRT

[Minivanessa]

Just now, MargeGunderson said:

I think Derick and Jill got a lawyer involved and JB negotiated/settled with the, so there wouldn’t be a lawsuit filed or any type of public record. That suggests to me that he knows he won’t come off great if the details of how/to whom payments were made. I suspect TLC wouldn’t want the details about the contracts and payments known either, so that there other “stars” can’t use the information as leverage.

That's pretty much what I thought too. JB had a lot to lose if Derick's lawyer filed suit, for all the reasons you mentioned. JB's not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I'm sure he understood all the many ways that the mere filing of a lawsuit would put him in the sh*t. Derick had enough leverage to pry some money for Jill out of JB's iron fist, and even if Derick was a prick about it? I don't care. He did it. And good for him. I doubt JB would have budged an inch or parted with a dime without some real heavy hitting up against him. 

In the "Derick's a prick" vs. "Jim Bob's a Prick" matchup? I'm Team Derick all the way. 

[Zella]

6 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

In the "Derick's a prick" vs. "Jim Bob's a Prick" matchup? I'm Team Derick all the way. 

LOL I can't stand either one of them, but if I had to pick sides, I'd pick Derick's. I think they're both awful in their own ways, but if Derick's awfulness made Jim Bob have to be the slightest bit accountable after years of treating his family like subjects in his own little fiefdom, I'm not going to complain. 

I would see the situation much more differently if Jim Bob wasn't so well known as an asshole. I think he got what he deserved in having an asshole for a son-in-law. 

Edited to add: And for that reason, I'm not sure applying reasonable family norms to this situation works since the people in question are not reasonable or normal. 

Edited December 19, 2020 by Zella

[DangerousMinds]

25 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Some good points.

I don't see that Jill is any happier. To me her SM posts have remained fairly consistent. I feel like her posts were looked at with a different and more hopeful lens, so that it what was seen, but nothing really changed.

What is it that JB & M are apologizing to Derick for? For not paying his child's medical bills? It seems to me they have handled the TLC money in whatever method they've used and Derick had no problem with it for 2 years or so. JB & M may be shitty parents, but they're not Derick's parents. They may have messed up Jill's childhood, but they didn't mess up Derick's.

If JB handled the disagreement over money like a dick, then he should apologize for that. But we know Derick handled it like a dick too.

Derick has said they are welcome at the TTH as long as they call first. A very clear, slightly passive-aggressive, boundary. One that Jill and Derick don't seem to like. Jill and Derick sued JB. I think even the most gracious parent might have a problem with that.

I think mixing in Jill's childhood with the fallout confuses things. I think its great that Jill is teasing out some of her parents shitty parenting skills, but I get the feeling that Derick uses that to make everything he has done as right.

But again, I don't see anything on SM that gives the impression that Jill's demeanor has changed.

If I were Derick, it would be VERY here for me to get past JB’s part in minimizing Josh’s abuse of her and her sisters, and the fact that Josh is evidently still welcome and forgiven and Jill is not. Not to mention that they had to threaten legal action to get very minimal compensation for Jill’s years on the show. 

[Zella]

4 minutes ago, DangerousMinds said:

If I were Derick, it would be VERY here for me to get past JB’s part in minimizing Josh’s abuse of her and her sisters, and the fact that Josh is evidently still welcome and forgiven and Jill is not. Not to mention that they had to threaten legal action to get very minimal compensation for Jill’s years on the show. 

Good point. I suspect it is hard for Jill to get past, too. 

[Zella]

At the end of the day, I think the estrangement centers far more on loss of parental control than anything else. I personally don't think that reconciling with parents who are hellbent on controlling their adult children without any sign of change is a step forward. 

[GeeGolly]

11 minutes ago, DangerousMinds said:

If I were Derick, it would be VERY here for me to get past JB’s part in minimizing Josh’s abuse of her and her sisters, and the fact that Josh is evidently still welcome and forgiven and Jill is not. Not to mention that they had to threaten legal action to get very minimal compensation for Jill’s years on the show. 

I don't think Jill is not forgiven or unwelcome. I think its Derick who JB has a problem with.

[ginger90]

[Absolom]

No apologies needed for making interfering parents back the hell up into their legitimate preserve.

I've had to do it and sadly some people don't act like normal rational adults when losing control of their adult offspring.

 

[Zella]

3 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I don't think Jill is not forgiven or unwelcome. I think its Derick who JB has a problem with.

I think Jill is estranged from her dad. The lack of his presence in any pictures with her even when Michelle would find the time to visit is pretty telling to me. And Derick doesn't seem to be present, either, so I don't think it's just JB avoiding him. 

Edited December 19, 2020 by Zella

[GeeGolly]

1 minute ago, Zella said:

I think Jill is estranged from her dad. The lack of his presence in any pictures with her even when Michelle would find the time to visit is pretty telling to me. 

I see were you all are coming from but I don't see it that way. I actually looked through Jill's IG and every picture - then & now - could be seen either way. There's even a recent one where Jill looks wiped out and the kids are barely near her while she's reading them a book. If that was taken 2 years ago, everyone would have commented on it.

I think Jill is standing by Derick and that's why she's not going over and seeing her dad.  

I also think JB is immature enough not to go to Derick's house and/or Derick is immature enough to tell JB he's not allowed at his home without permission.

But anyway, not to sound too much like a Duggar, like I said, I see it all differently.

[Zella]

5 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I think Jill is standing by Derick and that's why she's not going over and seeing her dad.  

I also think JB is immature enough not to go to Derick's house and/or Derick is immature enough to tell JB he's not allowed at his home without permission.

Oh I wouldn't be surprised if that dynamic was at work either, but I don't still don't think JB would welcome her with open arms and that the estrangement is all on the Dillard side. It just doesn't seem in keeping with JB's personality at all. 

I just am not inclined to feel like JB is significantly being wronged in this situation. (In much the same way that I don't buy a lot of Derick's narratives.) 

It would be a tricky situation to navigate, and I'm not sure there's really a good solution in a situation where everyone is childish. But I also don't think Jill is significantly suffering from whatever estrangement it is. And to be honest, I don't really think the Duggars are either. And in that case, I'm not sure the effort that would be expended in trying to reconcile is really worth it. 

Edited December 19, 2020 by Zella

[crazy8s]

I don't usually buy into any social media nonsense from either side

what I do see from Jill's postings are less whining about how hard life is, less complaining about the nuisance the boys are, less desperate pics/videos of derick going off to work/school and leaving her alone for a long hard day.

what i see more of are happy kids, Jill on a schedule. Izzy having teacher gifts - who would have saw that coming? Jill seems comfortable with her current life.

 

Edited December 19, 2020 by crazy8s

[Madtown]

51 minutes ago, ginger90 said:

Not sure how this happens. Assuming both Jill and Derick are home, no one sees Sam carrying all the books into the bathroom? At Sam's age, I would think he would know not pour water on books.

[JAYJAY1979]

Jill's Instagram seems a lot like many young mothers social media.  She seems relatable with school activities, taking kids to school, nights out with hubby, even some light hearted banter with hubby.  

And I think all adult kids should establish healthy boundaries with their parents. 

[GeeGolly]

4 minutes ago, Madtown said:

Not sure how this happens. Assuming both Jill and Derick are home, no one sees Sam carrying all the books into the bathroom? At Sam's age, I would think he would know not pour water on books.

I know, right?

And all that laundry. Jill's actually on somewhat of a schedule now and there's only 4 of them. When is the last time she's done laundry?

[Zella]

It's also making me buggy that it seems like it's clean clothing piled on the floor. 

[Totally]

20 minutes ago, Madtown said:

Not sure how this happens. Assuming both Jill and Derick are home, no one sees Sam carrying all the books into the bathroom? At Sam's age, I would think he would know not pour water on books.

Meh.. my kids have done dumb things like this, I’m not going to come down on anyone for this. I remembering getting distracted when one of my kids was 4/12 and found every shampoo, moisturiser, hand soap etc emptied out all over the bathroom , and I do mean all over the bathroom! And our house wasn’t big so it’s not like I was very far from my kid when it was happening 😑

Kids do things they know they shouldn’t all the time, so I’m not coming down on Sam either

[Zella]

11 hours ago, Totally said:

Meh.. my kids have done dumb things like this, I’m not going to come down on anyone for this. I remembering getting distracted when one of my kids was 4/12 and found every shampoo, moisturiser, hand soap etc emptied out all over the bathroom , and I do mean all over the bathroom! And our house wasn’t big so it’s not like I was very far from my kid when it was happening 😑

Kids do things they know they shouldn’t all the time, so I’m not coming down on Sam either

I did my share of bizarre shit at that age, so I don't find it impossible to believe he did this. But I think the wrong response as a parent is to take a picture of it (and then post it on social media.) Jill's not the only one of her sisters to do that and I'm not sure any of them realize it's problematic since their childhoods were filmed, but to me, the message it conveys to the child is that there isn't really anything wrong with what they did. Not that a Michael Pearl approved beatdown would be the appropriate response either, but I think taking pictures of it just makes the kid think this sort of behavior is acceptable and encourages them to continue doing stuff like this. 

Edited December 20, 2020 by Zella