Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[roamyn]

And neither do the victims. If his sisters never forgave him then that is within in their right. However, because they are brought up in a religious environment that is all about child abuse, they are forced to "forgive" Josh.

I realize now why I hate this forgiveness racket so much: this is Josh's cross to bear, not theirs. The fundie concept of forgiveness shifts that burden over to the victim. How can poor little Joshy move on with his life if you do not forgive him? He said he was sorry. So now if you not forgive him, you're a bitch. BTW, child molesters should never be forgiven. Once that happens, then people start acting like nothing happened,

Absolutely disagree with this.

Some people cannot forgive the wrong done to them, and that is perfectly within their right.

I had something happen to me when I was 11, and aft telling, I was able to learn to forgive. If I didn't, I fear I may have ended up like my other relative who was also a victim: an alcoholic man jumper. That doesn't mean I learn to forget.

Many drug addicts can trace their use to trying to dull the pain, because they didn't get the help they needed - in whatever shape that is.

To make such a broad statement that any kind of molester should "never" be forgiven, doesn't take into account each one's needs to heal.

No one should ever be forced to forgive. And really, no 16ye old should be paraded around their church forced to state their crime was either. if the victims involved forgive Josh privately, and if they wanted to tell Josh they forgave him or not, that is their own business.

Edited May 24, 2015 by roamyn

[autumnh]

Wow....read this..it also addresses the issue of the "NIKE" code word...

 

Also, the last paragraph

 

"And this will probably not come as a surprise, but there's no mention of a code word the Duggar men use so the girls can drop their eyes when a shirtless hottie or guy in tight pants walks past. (Unless that's coming when eldest sons Josh, John-David, and Joseph write their own book.) A man's hormones are a cross for the whole family to bear, but a woman's appear to a solitary burden. And that's one thing about Growing Up Duggar that seems a little sad."

 

 

http://www.cosmopolitan.com/entertainment/news/a21626/duggar-girls-book-quotes/

Edited May 24, 2015 by autumnh

[andromeda331]

So Michael Seewold writes, "There is blood in the water and the sharks are in a feeding frenzy. Finally, the Duggar family’s opponents have found what they have been eagerly waiting for: shocking revelations of scandal by Jim Bob and Michelle’s firstborn son, Josh."

 

 

I don't think any of their enemies were expecting to find out that Josh molested his sisters. Drinking a beer or

kissed or even had sex before marriage yes, not molesting his sisters. 

 

 Maybe he's being soft because of his daughter-in-law. But this is what gets me most about their defenders. They are acting as if what Josh was caught drinking a beer or reading Playboy Magazine as a teen. Not that he committed a horrible act. And many times.

Edited May 24, 2015 by andromeda331

[autumnh]

Also, since teachers are mandatory reporters shouldn't Michelle have reported it..you know since she was the "teacher" in the house?

[Chicklet]

 

If it were not for the righteous hypocrisy of this clan on sexual matters, I'm not sure this whole thing would be nearly as big a story as it has become.

I know it's futile, but if only the fundamentalists would understand that it's the HYPOCRISY we are all railing about. Yes the molestation was horrible, yes not contacting the authorities was awful but sadly happens every day, but we are angry that the JimBlobs have been trying portray GLTB people as monsters when all along it was their precious first miracle Josh, the good Christian, who was the one young women should fear.

[Oldernowiser]

I know it's futile, but if only the fundamentalists would understand that it's the HYPOCRISY we are all railing about. Yes the molestation was horrible, yes not contacting the authorities was awful but sadly happens every day, but we are angry that the JimBlobs have been trying portray GLTB people as monsters when all along it was their precious first miracle Josh, the good Christian, who was the one young women should fear.

THIS. Whether the victims choose to forgive Josh is their decision...hopefully. But the family has been raking in the cash for ten years trotting themselves around as holier than everyone, publicly condemning others, and claiming that their moral code makes for the ideal life, so everyone should be following it, when it was all an enormous, calculated, greedy lie.

Like almost everything, it was about the Benjamins. So STFU with the Bible bullshit.

[bencr]

 I don't think it's unusual to sweep sexual abuse under the rug and try to go on as if nothing happened.  I'm not saying that is the right thing to do. It absolutely is not, but I would bet that it's the typical family response. 

 

You may be right. I hope not. I think it's especially problematic to pretend that nothing happened when the predator and his victims are living in the same house. But even if it is true, aren't we allowed to hold the Duggar family to a higher set of standards than just us mere mortals? Isn't that what they've been preaching at us these many years?

[Chai]

I feel like I've been using my favorite perfume for years and have only just learned its made out of poop. 

 

I also know me complaining will not help one iota unless I make sure TLC hears me. I'm off to send another email. 

[Chicklet]

 

aren't we allowed to hold the Duggar family to a higher set of standards than just us mere mortals? Isn't that what they've been preaching at us these many years?

"We" (those of us with functional brains) are allowed to hold this family to higher set of standards since they claimed those standards loudly and proudly and tried to force their will on the populace. But the Duggars and other "godly" people (such as Ben Carson) started to believe their own bullshit and PR so any grounding they had was soon lost.

And really that old nugget about those who protest too much have something to hide is really true more than it's not. Think about all the anti-gay republicans who are so stridently nasty about gay people, and turn out to be in the closet themselves.

 

[WhineandCheez]

It's been reported both locally and nationally that one of the victims that is still a minor requested for the redacted report to be destroyed.

 

 Can a minor legally do this?  I can't imagine they would be legally allowed to, like they cannot enter into a contract.  I think it should read as "JimChelle requested that the redacted report be destroyed."

Edited May 24, 2015 by WhineandCheez

[NextIteration]

It's not unusual to sweep sexual abuse under the rug, trust me and others that have attested to the truth of that.  The problem comes with the sweeping though because it denies the survivors their emotions and trauma about the abuse and exacerbates the shame and trauma.  In this particular case it gets even worse because cameras were shoved in the survivors' faces and they were forced to perpetuate a lie, further burying their entitlement to emotions about the situation and possibly causing more trauma.

 

That's what is so incredibly frustrating for me anyways, when Michelle does things like robocalls accusing transgendered folks of being child molesters, there is simply no basis for the assertion and she's the one that has damaged children.  It just makes me fume. :(

[dmmetler]

Homeschoolers aren't mandatory reporters in most states because they're not considered teachers (there are a few exceptions where homeschoolers are considered unaccredited private schools). And in many of those cases, BOTH parents are considered faculty (we are registered as a private school, and both my husband and I are on the affidavit). So either neither parent fell under mandatory reporting laws, or both did.

I'm also not sure whether there is privilege when it comes to mandated reporting and your own children (as their is for spouses and criminal charges).

That's one reason why I'd actually be in favor of requiring homeschooled kids to have some regular meeting with an outside person who IS a mandatory reporter. For 99+% of homeschoolers, there would be no issue, but maybe, just maybe, it would help that <1%. Kids who go to a traditional school have at least the opportunity for abuse to be noticed and an outside adult separate from the family that they could talk to without their parents present. So do most homeschoolers-but I'd be willing to have an appointment a couple of times a year if it protects other kids.

[Emme]

I have a former friend who recently broke up with her boyfriend who was a child molester. He was 27 and on probation/house arrest when they met. She was 29 years old, "of the world" and this was most certainly not her first boyfriend or the first guy she had talked to. She knew what she was getting into and her friends/family all tried to talk some sense into her. She was an otherwise smart girl but she was so stupid about this guy. Because sometimes girls are stupid about guys, even in the most normal situation.

Compare this case with Anna. We have an 18-20 year old girl who has never been allowed to even speak to a boy before Josh appears. She has been taught that her goal in life is to find a husband but not a day before she turns 20. Her father has to approve of everyone that comes through the door. This semi-cute guy gives her attention, he's "famous", has some form of income and a roomy house waiting for her, and the people who are supposed to weed evil guys out and protect her approve of him. She likely has no idea what "touching" entails because unlike the rest of us, she didn't have friends/tv/parents/school/the internet to teach her. I'm not saying she was totally ignorant about this situation but I think that if my otherwise normal friend can get caught up in this situation because girls get stupid sometimes, then Anna most definitely deserves a little slack, if only for the fact that everyone had failed her up to that point. Her dad probably prayed about it and said it was okay for crying out loud. That was all the approval she needed. I can't be too mad at Anna for marrying him because she did what she knew to do at that point in her life.

Isn't Anna's father's story that he came to a life of ministry after making mistakes/bad choices when younger? I think I remember reading that on a Keller website. I have no idea the nature of his bad choices, but I don't think the Keller family will be quick to cast Josh out.

[photo fox]

I've never seen this show, but I've read the last twenty pages or so of this thread because of personal history. Everybody else has already stated a lot of my feelings on the matter, so I'll just add one thing for now.

That is, I'm really disappointed in Harpo's lack of action in 2006 and since. As I understand it - please correct me if I'm wrong - in 2006 they knew that something had happened in that house. So they canceled their Oprah appearance and alerted Arkansas authorities, exactly as they should.

But then, when nothing happened, they shrugged their shoulders and walked away? And stood by while the Duggars used their political clout to fight against equality for a group of people that Oprah and Harpo would claim to support? That's weak sauce.

I mean, kudos to them for doing as much as they did, but they could have done more, IMO.

[cooksdelight]

But then, when nothing happened, they shrugged their shoulders and walked away? And stood by while the Duggars used their political clout to fight against equality for a group of people that Oprah and Harpo would claim to support? That's weak sauce.

I mean, kudos to them for doing as much as they did, but they could have done more, IMO

I can't speak for Oprah, but she did all that she legally could do. Reported it to the authorties, and let the law take it's course. Only in this case, the family hushed it up. Had Oprah gone after them publicly, it could have been viewed as harassment or defamation. She's not the law.

[Aja]

Josh's public statement including 'I knew that if I didn't change the road I was on, I would ruin my life' tells us everything we need to know. I'm sure that's exactly how it was presented to him, too. "Now Josh, you are the oldest male child of our Jesus army and are therefore more important than anyone or anything, the godless liberals will attack you for being a true Christian, just don't do it!" I have no connection to anything like this so I have no idea how it works, but considering what went on under JB and J'ichelle's watch and considering there is still a hoard of minor children in their care, no investigation? Nothing? Is there really and truly no grounds for one? 

[Maizie131]

Here's a great article worth reading.  http://www.inquisitr.com/2114091/why-i-wont-forgive-and-forget-josh-duggar-or-jim-bob-and-michelle/

[alt0233]

I'm really disappointed in Harpo's lack of action in 2006 and since. As I understand it - please correct me if I'm wrong - in 2006 they knew that something had happened in that house. So they canceled their Oprah appearance and alerted Arkansas authorities, exactly as they should.

But then, when nothing happened, they shrugged their shoulders and walked away? And stood by while the Duggars used their political clout to fight against equality for a group of people that Oprah and Harpo would claim to support? That's weak sauce.

I mean, kudos to them for doing as much as they did, but they could have done more, IMO.

They got an email from a stranger saying that something had happened. There's only so much you can do based on that. I'd expect that Oprah is used to getting emails from strangers saying bad things about people that are or are supposed to be on her show. I'm guessing that Oprah is used to getting letters and emails saying bad things about her. Many (if not most) of those letters are probably not true - and she had no way of knowing if this one is or not. I don't blame her for not raising a ruckus about a letter that she had no idea if it was true or not - she handed it over to the authorities and let them handle it - if they found that there was nothing they could do, what else could she have done, exactly? Make a public spectacle based on one email from a woman she's never met before? Edited May 24, 2015 by alt0233

[Granny58]

Real question: I'm not a mother so it's easy to say what I would or wouldn't do. I see people saying what Michelle and Jim Bob should have done with Josh, but what would you all do in this situation? Obviously you get everyone help and professional counseling, but where does your son go from there? Does he continue to live with you? Do you send him elsewhere? When is he welcome in the family home again? What were Michelle and Jim Bob supposed to do with their son?

 

 

 

OK, I do have a teenage son, though we have NEVER encountered a problem like this.  And I, as a teenage girl, had teen brothers and would have been appalled by being fondled by one of them....so I'll try to piece together what I THINK I would do.   First and foremost, as a parent I would look at whatever way I may have contributed to the problem.  I think the glaring failure here is on the part of Jimbob and Michelle.  They continually flaunt their sexuality, smooching yet looking at their kids and saying "not for you!" and never missing an opportunity to have sex, yet did not allow their children a degree of normalcy in relations outside the family.  No unchaperoned dating, no hanging out in even mixed groups without an ever watchful eye spy making sure there was no physical contact.  I'm sure that self gratification was even frowned upon - even though completely normal.  So here's a newly hormonal teenage boy basically boxed in BUT with his moron parents bizarrely focused on making babies.  I remember how my hormone/arousal level was off the charts at 14...same (or worse?) for a boy.  So, again, parents most at fault here.  As for the kids, I would show support for all of them (even Josh).  I would listen and support my daughters' feelings, ask what they would wish as recompense.  And if they need to talk about it repeatedly to work through their feelings, fine.  I would have some penalty for Josh (not sure what) and also have LONG discussions with him about the situation.  I'm not sure if I would have gone to the police, it really would depend on the details.  But as a parent in a normal world my son would not be put in this "Flowers in the Attic" situation in the first place.  

[JenCarroll]

I've never seen this show, but I've read the last twenty pages or so of this thread because of personal history. Everybody else has already stated a lot of my feelings on the matter, so I'll just add one thing for now.

That is, I'm really disappointed in Harpo's lack of action in 2006 and since. As I understand it - please correct me if I'm wrong - in 2006 they knew that something had happened in that house. So they canceled their Oprah appearance and alerted Arkansas authorities, exactly as they should.

But then, when nothing happened, they shrugged their shoulders and walked away? And stood by while the Duggars used their political clout to fight against equality for a group of people that Oprah and Harpo would claim to support? That's weak sauce.

I mean, kudos to them for doing as much as they did, but they could have done more, IMO.

In 2006, Harpo received an allegation that something had happened. That's not actual knowledge. I imagine they get that kind of thing from time to time, and that some of those allegations are false. They turned the accusing letter over to the proper authorities, who did in fact begin an investigation. I don't know what else they're expected to do. They cancelled the appearance, and while some may assume the cancellation indicates that Harpo must have known these allegations were true, it's more likely that they decided it wasn't worth the risk. What kind of follow-up could Harpo do? The police are not allowed to disclose details of this kind of investigation involving minors; if they did follow up, the only information they might have been given was that the case was closed with no charges filed.

ETA: I see several people posted basically the same response while I was typing. Sorry to flood the thread! :-)

Edited May 24, 2015 by JenCarroll

[JoanArc]

Looks like May 26-29 there's an ATI conference in Nashville. The Duggars a featured speakers. I made screen grabs of the program flyer, in case they vanish. The Bateses and Wallers are going to be there too.

 

I'm rapidly losing faith in humanity. I'm sure they'll go and be welcomed with opened arms.

 

http://familyconferences.org/

[ZoloftBlob]

So Michael Seewold writes, "There is blood in the water and the sharks are in a feeding frenzy. Finally, the Duggar family’s opponents have found what they have been eagerly waiting for: shocking revelations of scandal by Jim Bob and Michelle’s firstborn son, Josh."

 

Well no shit.

 

I know it's futile, but if only the fundamentalists would understand that it's the HYPOCRISY we are all railing about. Yes the molestation was horrible, yes not contacting the authorities was awful but sadly happens every day, but we are angry that the JimBlobs have been trying portray GLTB people as monsters when all along it was their precious first miracle Josh, the good Christian, who was the one young women should fear.

 

 

To go a step further, here's the question I would ask these people. (I do acknowledge that Mike Sewald does seem to be supporting the victims here btw)

 

Here's my question to the Duggars and the married in families. If the boy who fondled your daughter wasn't a member of the family, would you have called the cops or accepted his "I'm sorry, Jesus"? That's what I want to know - would the non family molester be treated so kindly?

[photo fox]

I can't speak for Oprah, but she did all that she legally could do. Reported it to the authorties, and let the law take it's course. Only in this case, the family hushed it up. Had Oprah gone after them publicly, it could have been viewed as harassment or defamation. She's not the law.

No, I totally get that. I know there wasn't much they could do legally regarding the abuse. I'm just surprised that, "knowing" what they knew, and knowing that Josh and his parents were targeting gays and trans people and spewing hate, that no one quietly dropped some hints in some ears. Our in other words, no one did what apparently someone DID do just recently.

[Fuzzysox]

Here's a great article worth reading.  http://www.inquisitr.com/2114091/why-i-wont-forgive-and-forget-josh-duggar-or-jim-bob-and-michelle/

Great article. Me thinks the "statements" were written by a PR staff and certainly NOT Josh, or his fucked up parents.

Edited May 24, 2015 by Fuzzysox

[corgi]

Absolutely disagree with this.

Some people cannot forgive the wrong done to them, and that is perfectly within their right.

I had something happen to me when I was 11, and aft telling, I was able to learn to forgive. If I didn't, I fear I may have ended up like my other relative who was also a victim: an alcoholic man jumper. That doesn't mean I learn to forget.

Many drug addicts can trace their use to trying to dull the pain, because they didn't get the help they needed - in whatever shape that is.

To make such a broad statement that any kind of molester should "never" be forgiven, doesn't take into account each one's needs to heal.

No one should ever be forced to forgive. And really, no 16ye old should be paraded around their church forced to state their crime was either. if the victims involved forgive Josh privately, and if they wanted to tell Josh they forgave him or not, that is their own business.

 

As someone who was also sexually abused by a family member, I can say that I chose to forgive the person who abused me because until then, I carried the weight of the world on my shoulders and in doing so, started to find peace with the situation and the ability to put it behind me and move on.  I didn't do it for them at all, I did it for me.  

 

However, this came after a lot of self-evaluation/therapy and not as the result of any kind of religious dogma.  I'm not sure that would be the case with regard to the victims in this case.                                                                   

[ladle]

I keep thinking, is there really no crime Jim Bob and Michelle can be charged with, here?  They allowed a predator to live in the same house as their daughters and did not seem to take any precautions (other than prayer?), did not even put a lock on their daughters' door, and from what I am reading, the offenses then occurred again and again over a span of time.  Does that not rise to the level of child endangerment, at the very least?  Or has the statute of limitations passed for that as well?

[sigmaforce86]

TLC may have stopped airing them but the episodes are still available at TLC on demand - so I went back and watched the Erin Hill interview which I'd skipped when it was on (thought it would be boring).  It's harder to watch it now knowing what was about to hit the fan.............. but I wanted to see what people meant when they said it was tense and there were some weird looks.  I think I saw it most in Anna, her face changed when she thought the camera wasn't on her and she did a lot of glancing off camera at something or someone

 

Alison Arngrim linked, on Facebook, to this article that I think is pretty good - it's basically what if Josh had come out as gay instead what would the family, friend and political reaction be then.

 

http://www.deepsouthdaily.com/2015/05/if-josh-duggar-had-announced-that-hes-gay.html

Edited May 24, 2015 by sigmaforce86

[Granny58]

I hope one good thing that may come out of all this is that the kids drop the whole Gothardite lifestyle.  Christian is fine (I'm Christian), fundamental is fine (I'm verging), but cloistering yourself away from normal human interactions is NOT fine.  You can have a spiritual household without having to resort to being the scary mom in "Carrie."  As a religious, verging on fundamental mom I told my son, "don't treat other people as playthings, at a minimum if you have sex with somebody make sure you love her, and if you get someone pregnant, meh, there's worse things that could happen."  I admit...I haven't read all the details and don't know much about this situation, except that Josh fondled his sisters.  That's ALL I know.  Don't even know who.  However, if I had to guess I would assume Jessa was in the mix and that MAY account for her mildly FU attitude to everybody.  

[merylinkid]

I don't see how the show can continue without JOsh.   The whole point of the show is that JimBob and Michelle had 19 kids and they all travel in a herd.   You can't do that if 1/19 of the kids can't ever be shown.    You can't be bragging about having 19 kids, like it is some amazing feat if you can only show 18 kids.   You can't have it be about how close they are and do everything together if one kid can never be seen.    

 

They would have to change the focus of the show completely and get a new shctick.   Except JB doesn't have any schtick except I had 19 kids because God wanted me too.   He's too uneducated and too focused on his moral superiority to have anything else.  

 

ETA:   This family is not going to drop Gothardism now that this has come out.   In fact they may go even deeper.   Their religion teaches them it is not their fault, but that the girls' defrauded their brother somehow.   Parents hands washed of culpability.   Also, it shows they were right to shun the outside world.   The outside world found out their dirty secret and is not being nice and "forgiving" about it.   Therefore, outside world bad.   You can't look at this how a rational person would.   These people do not think rationally.   If they did, they would never have joined up with Gothardism in the first place.  

 

As for forgiveness.   FOr me personally to forgive someone that person has to say more than sorry.    They have try to fix the mess they made.  They have NOT doing it again.   Not saying Josh did do it again.   But his smugness over the years shows he still thinks he is better than everyone else.   Even his statement -- albeit written by a crisis PR person -- does not show he learned anything from this.   Until then, he might get my understanding at how this happened, but he sure as hell doesn't get my forgiveness for messing up his sister's lives. 

Edited May 24, 2015 by merylinkid

[Cherrio]

This post is not about what Anna should or should not do, but rather that she is not "stuck" as I have read several times.

 

Women, hundreds of women with children everyday flee their homes with nowhere to go.  Their futures with no family or resources to help will be hard, but there ARE places they can go.

 I just would like to not keep reading that women are stuck and have to remain somewhere they do not want to be.   

[NextIteration]

I really appreciated this opinion piece from someone that has been there done that.

 

I found it insightful regarding something that I just can't wrap my mind around, good linking in it as well.

 

I know I shouldn't fault Oprah, but I can't help feeling like she could have found a way to put these people on blast, somehow.

[Bella]

As someone who was also sexually abused by a family member, I can say that I chose to forgive the person who abused me because until then, I carried the weight of the world on my shoulders and in doing so, started to find peace with the situation and the ability to put it behind me and move on.  I didn't do it for them at all, I did it for me.  

 

However, this came after a lot of self-evaluation/therapy and not as the result of any kind of religious dogma.  I'm not sure that would be the case with regard to the victims in this case.                                                                   

 

I'm *not* a religious person, though I do have some beliefs. Through that filter, here's my take on the whole "forgiveness" issue.

 

It's like letting go of hate. About 30 years ago, I had the stereotypical boss-from-hell. She made my life as miserable as she possibly could and then some. I was only at the job for about 2 years, but that boss occupied my mind for a lot longer, until I realized that by hanging onto the hurt and anger, I was prolonging her power over me. By understanding that, I was able to let go of my negative feelings towards her. That in no way means I excuse her or consider her anything other than a miserable excuse for a human being. But I finally stopped giving mental and emotional energy to her. In 2013, I had another situation arise in which a person lied to me and treated me very poorly. Once I cut free from all ties, I gave myself 1 month to feel the anger, and then I began working on getting her out of my head. She now has no more power over me, and none of my mental or emotional energy. I would cross the street to avoid her, and I'd tell DH that I spotted her, but I would then let it go.

 

I think true forgiveness, not the forced "forgiveness" inflicted on the Duggar girls, is probably similar. It's done more to heal yourself than to lie to yourself and others about any "goodness" in the other person. The shallow facsimile of forgiveness shoved onto the Duggar girls is nothing like that. 

 

YMMV.

[GEML]

I think it is quite possible that Mike and Guinn Seewald and perhaps posting on behalf of Jessa and Ben. Or, at least, they are in dialog with them, and would not be posting if their children did not wish them to. Mike Seewald had come to their aid twice before - on behalf of young marriage, and when Jessa was getting Internet heat for her holocaust tweet, so I'm not surprised. They have both shown themselves very protective of their children, including Jessa. I believe if she were in strong disagreement or believed they were making the situation worse and asked them to stop, they would.

And while JB used the term "church elders" I want to say again that I do not believe that meant the Elders within the Church of Jim Bob. I absolutely believe that meant the important members of the Gothard hierarchy, for whom, as a church leader, Jim Bob would have been under authority. And I believe those would have included Mr. Keller and Gil Bates. I now find it interesting that the Keller family not only married a daughter and perhaps was relieved the burden of providing a dowery for their act of marrying her to someone with such a past (and I believe she knew at least SOME - it seems to have been known in ATI circles and perhaps explains the modest marriage choices for the girls) but Gil Bates got a shot of a TV show of his own and a new house. I'm wondering who else was on that Elders council and what else they may have been given as incentives over the past ten years.

[Christi]

He fondeled more than his sister right? The report says at least 2 familes

[pinkelephant3]

The sad thing is that with their religion and the forgiveness and repentance fixes everything feeling, that to them josh is not a preditor and they will not be afraid to have him around their children/grandchildren. He asked for forgiveness so it's fine and over. But to all of us who know that a preditor isn't fixed by catching the holy ghost are scared for all the children that come into contact with him.

[truthtalk2014]

I keep thinking about Derrick going to work next week (since he is the only one with an actual job) and all his coworkers having heard about the molester brother in law.

 

He'll probably have to take some more time off.

[Happyfatchick]

He fondled his LITTLE SISTERS.

LITTLE LITTLE LITTLE!BABY INNOCENT SHELTERED SISTERS!!!

12,11,10,9, 5

That's the ages of the girls in the house at that moment. I'm sorry for the graphics, but What the WHAT?????

That's where I get stuck.

DISGUSTING.

Eta: I was responding to Aja's post but there were 3 more by the time I got done. You guys are FAST!

Edited May 24, 2015 by Happyfatchick

[Christi]

He fondeled more than his sister right? The report says at least 2 families.

What about the Non Duggar abuse victims...dont they want actual justice? Rather than JB's self emposed Family Justice

[Aja]

He fondled at least one more girl outside of the family, at least according to the police report, or that's my understanding. And I am not trying to minimise that at all, but there is something extra-sick about doing that to your siblings, particularly siblings that you have more power and authority over than the vast majority of older brothers have on their little sisters. VILE. And makes me wonder about the mental health of everyone coming out to defend them. 

[Bella]

He fondled his LITTLE SISTERS.

LITTLE LITTLE LITTLE!BABY INNOCENT SHELTERED SISTERS!!!

12,11,10,9, 5

That's the ages of the girls in the house at that moment. I'm sorry for the graphics, but What the WHAT?????

That's where I get stuck.

DISGUSTING.

 

Exactly.

 

Plus, official mod note part:

Yes, there was at least one other victim outside the family, which we mostly don't discuss because it leads to attempts at identifying this person, and the mods and site admin here don't want that. But yes, there was at least one victim from outside the family. 

[SoSueMe]

I'm sure it's been said better, so hard to keep up, but my thought on forgiveness:

It is a lofty goal and probably benefits the one forgiving in the long run. I think it is wrong to forgive for wrong committed against other than yourself, the wronged person has the prerogative to forgive or not.

Most important, forgiveness is and should be totally different than failing to hold someone accountable for their wrongdoing.

[autumnh]

You know...when I think about it, Jana always comes across so fragile, quiet etc. Watching the Duggars Dig In special last week, Jana was in tears while talking about Josie's seizure. I mean she not in all of the episodes, there has been mention of her going off to Gothard camp and again..she sometimes comes across me as being broken.

 

She is the oldest daughter yet has never courted, they almost seem like they try to keep her out of the spotlight. Something about it just rubs me the wrong way. I could be entirely wrong but it just feels that way to me.

[SomePity1066]

I keep coming up with more and more things that make me furious about this whole thing - it's like an endless river of anger and sadness...

 

If Michelle and JB decided to just "pray away" the sins of Josh and sweep the whole thing under the rug, then why, WHY, did they keep doing it when it was obvious that it hadn't stopped ?! In fact, it EXPANDED. More instances. More victims. More girls left to blame themselves for what looks to be a lifetime of shame and self-doubt. And JB and Michelle were...fine with that ?

 

Josh, that creepy, doughy, pale, fat, fuckface - he ALWAYS gave off some seriously bad vibes, something that got under my skin or made the hair on the back of my neck stand up, but I could never quite place what it was. At times I thought he must be the kid who masturbates constantly in the shower or is always trying to hide an erection, but who cares ?!?! Teenage boys are horn dogs and that's just the way it is - fine with me.  But this goes so far beyond the feeling you get when someone stands too close to you in an elevator - discomfort and unease. It's physically revolting.

 

With all the revelations come to light now I see his picture and it's like looking at Charles Manson or something - he's just so snug, toasty, and comfy in the knowledge that "Jesus has forgiven him". But has he really ? Don't you have to be actually sorry for what you DID, and not just for getting caught ?

 

Here's my take - My older (and MUCH bigger) sister physically abused me for years, and I'm not talking about bullying or punching me in the arm. She'd choke me until I was unconscious. Lock me in closets for HOURS. Push me down flights of steps. Force me to eat dirt or dog food. My mother was fully aware and laughed it off as "childhood shenanigans" - she was also mentally ill but that's another story. When my father was FINALLY told he immediately separated us, and from then until I finally moved out he protected me and I was never alone with her. He wanted to leave and take me with him but in the 70s who's going to give custody to the father ? My sister went to counseling, which did nothing, but my dad insisted they at least try. My mother continued to behave like nothing had happened, like she'd put a whoopee cushion on my chair instead of beating me until I lost teeth and needed stitches. But thank God I had one normal parent who did his very best to keep me safe. He's gone now, but I continue to love him as my hero and savior, and I miss him every day. In a house simply FILLED with crazy he was my sanity.

 

So that's how it happens - you get a kid who's a "bad seed" and parent/parents who are blind to it, crazy, or directed by some trumped-up cult of patriarchal, misogynistic bullshit and the whole world turns upside-down. The fact the the girls had NO ONE, neither father nor mother, nor grandma, either, apparently, is just so heartbreaking it makes me physically ill. All the feelings of loneliness, betrayal, and probably the constant, unending fear that Josh would just keep moving down the line age-wise with the other girls must have made those poor girls feel like they'd been abandoned by the very God they'd been raised to love and obey. 

 

I hope Josh loses everything. I hope Anna gets away with all the kids and finds support and financial help from OUTSIDE the Gothards so she can start her life over. I hope ALL the kids get the Hell outta dodge, maybe staying with the older girls, married or not, and they can make new lives together with the only REAL mother they've ever known.

 

And JB and Michelle ? I hope they get old and get stuck in the shittiest horrorshow of a nursing home in existence. They Michelle can say "I have 19 children and I delivered them ALL, and now NONE of them come to visit me..."

[RazzleberryPie]

Just to clarify, there is no unified, nationwide Gothard church. He is an author and speaker, not a minister. Most of his followers belong to various ultra conservative denominations throughout the country, often Independent Fundamental Baptists or home churches, such as the Duggars's home church that now meets in a storage facility. So the church elders would not include Pa Keller, Gil Bates or Gothard. Each of those men belongs to his own local church. I don't believe we know the names of any of the storage facility church members, although I think probably the Querys and Sierra's family are among them. But didn't the Query husband die?

Which explains why JimBob wants his own church, where he is this own counsel and can do whatever the hell he wants with no accountability. JimBob's handling of Josh's perversion also explains to me why Gil Bates, and probably others, have been so reluctant to enter courtships with any of the Duggars. Not because of compromised purity with the girls, but because Jimbob sweeps a sexual predator's actions under the rug and then won't shut up about purity.

 

So Michael Seewold writes, "There is blood in the water and the sharks are in a feeding frenzy. Finally, the Duggar family’s opponents have found what they have been eagerly waiting for: shocking revelations of scandal by Jim Bob and Michelle’s firstborn son, Josh."

 

Well no shit. When the Duggars claim  to hold the moral high ground and actively advocate to deny gay people their basic human rights based on their religious beliefs, you better believe that their opponents are going to pounce when the Duggars show their true colors. The irony here, of course, is that the Duggar family stumbled on the very issue with which they are most vocal and judgmental -- sexual mores. What's that they say about people who live in glass houses?

 

If it were not for the righteous hypocrisy of this clan on sexual matters, I'm not sure this whole thing would be nearly as big a story as it has become.

 

And BTW, Mr. Seewold, the "shocking revelations of scandal" are not just about the firstborn son, Josh. They are also about the community of adults who chose to try to sweep this event under the rug for their own benefit rather than for the benefit of the children affected.

EXACTLY - the Duggar's whole schtick is that they're this huge family that has some sort of moral high ground because they have separated themselves from the evil world, and are Holier than thou. They are national public figures who earn their living from a television show and speaking tours, where they spout about homeschooling, purity, modesty, courting, etc is God's way, all while they have more perversion and sin in their family than the average person who owns a TV or sends kids to public school. Then Michelle and Josh specifically picket and lobby against transgendered people (who could be married Christians) having any rights, because they're disgusting, sinful, perverts. They're reaping what they've sowed.

 

Isn't Anna's father's story that he came to a life of ministry after making mistakes/bad choices when younger? I think I remember reading that on a Keller website. I have no idea the nature of his bad choices, but I don't think the Keller family will be quick to cast Josh out.

They won't. Either Anna's family is sincerely forgiving and believes in 100% rehabilitation from 'sin' or they're using Gothard teaching to justify their own shortcomings. People here have suspected Anna's father may be homosexual, and no need to explain anyone's thoughts on TFDW's sexuality. If Josh repents, he's forgiven. I think they'd be quicker to chastise Anna for wanting to leave (which she hasn't expressed) than they would for Josh admitting he molested his sisters.

That is, I'm really disappointed in Harpo's lack of action in 2006 and since. As I understand it - please correct me if I'm wrong - in 2006 they knew that something had happened in that house. So they canceled their Oprah appearance and alerted Arkansas authorities, exactly as they should.

But then, when nothing happened, they shrugged their shoulders and walked away? And stood by while the Duggars used their political clout to fight against equality for a group of people that Oprah and Harpo would claim to support? That's weak sauce.

I mean, kudos to them for doing as much as they did, but they could have done more, IMO.

I think Harpo Studios acted appropriately and did everything they could. They reported the fax to authorities. They have no idea where the fax came from, and it dealt with minors. Oprah isn't a police officer, counselor, attorney, minister, etc. Reporting is basically all they could do. 

[Happyfatchick]

I keep coming up with more and more things that make me furious about this whole thing - it's like an endless river of anger and sadness...

 

Josh, that creepy, doughy, pale, fat, fuckface [HAHA!!! Quote of the DAY!!!!!]

 

Here's my take - My older (and MUCH bigger) sister physically abused me for years...When my father was FINALLY told he immediately separated us, and from then until I finally moved out he protected me and I was never alone with her... But thank God I had one normal parent who did his very best to keep me safe. He's gone now, but I continue to love him as my hero and savior, and I miss him every day. In a house simply FILLED with crazy he was my sanity.

 

I hope ALL the kids get the Hell outta dodge, maybe staying with the older girls, married or not, and they can make new lives together with the only REAL mother they've ever known. "

You are my new hero!!! (Move over Wanderwoman/WONDERWOMAN, there's a sister hero on the bench!

At some point, someone Duggar is going to have to address this Avalanche. I can hardly wait.

Re the kids getting out: I have this persistent recurring fantasy of a special being filmed with Jana, Joy and all the younger ones living in a tiny cramped space happy as pigs in poop. Being run like a regular home with people paying attention and loving them to pieces... Keeping their values but living normal. And hey, it's MY fantasy - so Jana is dating (like a DATE!) so she's cooking dinner and giving Joy instructions for the night. (It's spaghetti). And the boys are playing on the couch with an Xbox. And the little girl's room is decorated with Tinkerbell.

Michelle is locked up in a rubber room with no makeup, no curls and no sharp objects while Jim Bob is standing on a street corner in NYC with a a 25 lb. King James shouting sermons at cars in the intersection. People are taking pics of him with their iPhones.

That's my future map.

 

Edited May 24, 2015 by bigskygirl
Last sentence was edited out-way off topic

[Ljohnson1987]

This is more than a mistake, Duggars. Get that through your brainwashed heads.

[backformore]

Ugh! I hate how all of the fundies are lining up to support Josh. So basically you can commit any number of vile acts, but if you repent, you will be forgiven? How convenient! Josh doesn't strike me as the kind of person who has even an ounce of humility. If he had learned one bit from his "mistakes," he might have had the self awareness not to take a very public job preaching about family values. Then again, this is someone whose own father thinks it's a swell idea to put his whole family on camera not long after a major family crisis.

Honestly, reading the support for the Duggars on Facebook, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if they ended up getting their show back. They're not going to learn, grow, or change from this.

Right. I think of it this way - if there was sexual abuse in a family by someone who was, for example atheist, Muslim, transgender, gay, etc.etc...... These same "fundies" would not be talking about repentance and redemption. They would be using it to reinforce their own prejudices and beliefs about sinners.

[CofCinci]

Can we post the Josh memes that are hitting the interwebs or is it "too soon"?  Funny but tasteless.

[bencr]

I really appreciated this opinion piece from someone that has been there done that.

 

I found it insightful regarding something that I just can't wrap my mind around, good linking in it as well.

 

Thanks for the link, NextIteration. The author's comments had a ring of truth to them, and they prompted me to look at this Duggar situation somewhat differently.

 

First, it made it clear to me that these strict fundamentalists have a much different worldview than I do in many more ways than I ever imagined. It's truly like we come from different countries and speak different languages.

 

Second, it made me think the "cover-up" of Josh's sexual assault was less about maintaining the Duggar's status and preserving their TV show, and more about twisting facts and events in a way to support their religious viewpoint and their perception of the role of family (both in terms of sexual role play and power structure). It takes some twisting and creative interpretation of facts, but the Duggar family seems to have made Josh's molestation seem less like a crime that needs to be punished and dealt with and more like a sin that needs to be repented and forgiven -- but also teaches the family important lessons and brings them closer to God.

 

I imagine the Duggar family is shocked that so much of the world sees events so differently from how they see them, and I doubt very much if they are capable of learning any lessons from this.

Edited May 24, 2015 by bencr

[NextIteration]

Right. I think of it this way - if there was sexual abuse in a family by someone who was, for example atheist, Muslim, transgender, gay, etc.etc...... These same "fundies" would not be talking about repentance and redemption. They would be using it to reinforce their own prejudices and beliefs about sinners.

 

BINGO.

 

And for me, that's where all my frustration and anger is coming from.

 

Thank you thread for giving me a safe haven to be pissed in, sorry if I'm dead horsing.